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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1999

Vol. 159 No. 8

Housing Provisions: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann takes note of the Report of the Drudy Commission on housing; welcomes the Commission's radical approach to the housing crisis and urges the Government to implement the major recommendations contained in the report as a matter of urgency.

This is the second occasion this session at which the Labour group has raised the issue of housing, which reflects public concern about the difficulties in all sectors of housing at present. Our previous motion called on the Government to set up a housing commission but the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, said that would be a waste of time and would do nothing to alleviate the problem. When we look at the detail of Professor Drudy's report we see what a voluntary effort can do and this could have been built on if the Government had supported it.

The housing crisis is our most important social problem. It faces thousands of families and its features are well known to Members. The measures introduced to date by the Government have failed significantly to address the problem. Local authority housing lists continue to rise rapidly each quarter. New house prices are rocketing to such an extent that even professional couples, such as nurses and gardaí, cannot hope to purchase a new house. The current discontent in those professions has much to do with the lack of affordable housing for people who would previously have been regarded as having relatively good incomes. Our social housing sector remains significantly under-resourced. The private rented sector is in crisis as rents shoot through the roof and tenants are offered little or no legal protection against avaricious landlords. As a public representative from a rural town, I know that the position is even worse in such towns than in our cities, because of the lack of supply and the control of supply at local level by what can only be described as cartels.

To date, the Government has relied upon the advice of one economic consultant to devise its housing strategy. This decision, based on the premise that the housing problem can be solved by an economic analysis alone, is fundamentally flawed. It comes as no surprise that a Progressive Democrat Minister would happen upon this policy. It is a short-sighted, partial and ultimately ineffective way to view housing. It eliminates from the debate concepts such as rights, citizenship and community. It is an analysis of the housing market that finds it origins in Lady Thatcher's dictum that there is no such thing as society. It has failed utterly to improve the housing conditions of thousands of people.

The Government has refused time and time again to agree to the request, not alone from the Labour Party but from groups like the Consumers' Association of Ireland, to establish a housing commission. No explanation, convincing or otherwise, was offered other than the Minister's contention which I quoted earlier, that it was a waste of time and would do nothing to solve the problem.

In the face of this obduracy and evasion the Labour Party decided to take the matter into its own hands and establish its own housing commission. In February of this year my colleague, Deputy Gilmore, announced that Professor P. J. Drudy of Trinity College would chair the commission. The Labour Party and the entire political establishment owe a debt of gratitude to the work achieved by Professor Drudy and his colleagues on the commission. They were not highly paid consultants to the Government; they gave of their time because of their concern for Irish citizens and I warmly commend them for their work.

Labour's housing commission held a large number of public hearings throughout the country. We argued for this because the problem could not be addressed by listening to what one consultant had to say – we had to listen to the people. Professor Drudy's commission travelled to six centres and invited written submissions. I am delighted that 45 individuals and groups gave comprehensive and detailed responses, and that 28 of them attended the public hearings. This was a profitable listening exercise and the Government would do well to heed it. The submissions and the number of meetings held are outlined in the commission's report, which represents the most comprehensive national survey of attitudes to housing policy carried out in this country for many years.

The report places the housing crisis in the proper context. It is not solely an economic problem to be solved by tinkering with the market. Housing is first and foremost a social concern. People have a fundamental right to a secure and comfortable house or other accommodation within which to raise their families. This is the primary departure point for any analysis of housing matters. Economic measures are important but they must be based on and designed to achieve social goals and objectives. This is the fundamental, ideological error the Government has made and is the main reason its approach to date has proved so ineffective. On the last occasion I said the Government was like the captain of the Titanic, admitting that we were sinking, but at a slow rate. We are still hearing that.

By placing the housing crisis within a social context Professor Drudy and his team were able to put forward a radical and comprehensive set of recommendations, which would significantly transform the approach to housing in this country and make a difference to thousands of people. I will mention some of the report's 38 recommendations. The first is that the right to good quality, affordable housing should be enshrined in the Constitution. We spoke earlier today about giving constitutional recognition to local government and it would be equally valid to give constitutional recognition to the right to housing, as is the case in other European countries. We need a national strategy for affordable housing, backed up by comprehensive inspection and monitoring and an independent audit committee. A minimum of 20 per cent of social housing should be provided in all residential development, and existing powers under the planning Acts could be used to put that into effect. Fair price certificates should be introduced to ensure that fair prices are charged for new houses and fair rents are charged to tenants. There should be compulsory purchase of land for affordable housing purposes and 10,000 social housing units per annum should be provided to tackle the current waiting lists and other unmet housing needs. A quality control system should be put in place for all housing for sale or rent, which would include a requirement on developers properly to finish housing estates. Bodies such as building societies, pension funds, insurance companies and trade unions should be encouraged to invest in housing.

The Drudy commission also recommended that encouragement should be given to bodies such as building societies, pension funds, insurance companies and trade unions to invest in housing. I support strongly support this because I was recently approached by a credit union which wanted to use the new provisions for social responsibility in the Credit Union Act, 1997, to invest in local social housing projects. Despite consultation with the local authority, however, no mechanism could be found to enable that to happen quickly and effectively.

The commission went on to recommend that universities and colleges be provided with capital grants to develop student accommodation; that an alternative form of rental accommodation such as the cost-rental accommodation available in Germany, the Netherlands and Austria should be introduced; that consumer protection measures should be improved to protect borrowers; and that a strategy to encourage the sale, rent of redesign of dwellings which are currently under-occupied should be put forward.

The Drudy commission indicated that legislation is required to provide security of tenure. Over a century after the Land League took action to secure rights for tenant farmers, similar rights are required for tenants in the rented sector. The commission advocated the introduction of a new licensing system for the private rented sector to replace the current system of registration which has not worked and in respect of which a small number of local authorities took legal action but were not successful. The commission also recommended the introduction of new measures to assist tenants in the private rented sector, including the establishment of a rental deposits board, a mediation system for disputes between landlords and tenants and an independent housing and advice service. It also advocated that the recommendations of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities on housing and accommodation should be put in place and stated that a range of new measures are needed to assist and encourage the non-profit sector, including finance from the Housing Finance Agency, reform of the subsidised sites scheme and the establishment of a dedicated unit in the Department to develop the voluntary housing sector.

Anyone who examines the commission's recommendations will agree that they are radical proposals which go to the heart of the housing problem in Irish society. Unfortunately, the Kenny report has lain unimplemented for a number of decades. However, on revisiting it we may discover that its recommendations are more relevant now than they were at the time of its publication. For example, the Kenny report on land prices, advocated a new deal for tenants, namely, control of house prices which would give both developers and purchasers a fair deal. These are just some of its recommendations and I am surprised the Government has not considered taking action on this front in the two years since it took office.

Let us examine one of the report's recommendations, namely, the introduction of fair price certificates. This certificate would be granted to housing developments where a builder is allowed, and rightly so, to charge a healthy profit on the construction price of the house, for example, 20 per cent instead of the current mark ups of 80 per cent and 100 per cent which are causing so much havoc in the housing market. Only houses granted a fair price certificate would then qualify for the array of tax reliefs and grants available. This system would put a cap on house inflation, ensure that purchasers get a fair deal and ensure that the developers get a fair reward for their work and investment. It is a fine proposal for State intervention to ensure that the social policy needs of the community are meet by the market. I hope the Minister and the Government will have the political will to grasp this proposal and bring a degree of humanity and rationality into the housing market.

Time constraints prevent me from expanding in detail on Professor Drudy's report, but my colleagues will do so. Suffice it to state that it is the most in-depth analysis of the housing problem to emerge this decade. My party fully supports its recommendations and we are determined to see them implemented. At this stage, it is the responsibility of the Government to accept the logic behind these proposals and review its approach to the housing crisis so that people will have the opportunity to own a home of their own or rent a property at a reasonable cost without fear of eviction. As the end of the century approaches, is it too much to ask the Government to treat citizens with the respect and dignity they deserve and ensure they are not walked into the ground by the march of market forces? I do not believe so, but it is now up to the Government to prove it.

I welcome the opportunity to second the motion, but I am disappointed that the Government has seen fit to table an amendment. I would have thought that the amendment should form a preamble to the motion, noting the failure of the Government's initiatives to maximise and expedite the supply of housing, secure house price stabilisation, improve the affordability of and access to housing for members of all income groups. None of these initiatives has succeeded.

In my opinion the Government should have accepted this radical initiative as a new approach. However, it has merely asked an economist to solve a complex social problem. Economists operate within the marketplace and they, necessarily, adopt a blinkered approach. Economists are not interventionists; they consider market forces and devise strategies within that context. That is precisely what Dr. Bacon has done on two occasions. In his most recent report Dr. Bacon made two recommendations, one of which would have been worthwhile. However, this recommendation, which was rejected by the Government, advocated the extension of rent relief – introduced by the Labour Party in 1994 – to tenants. In its wisdom, the Government saw fit to reject that worthwhile proposal.

I urge the Minister of State, the Government and the Progressive Democrats – a party which previously indicated its willingness to "break the mould"– to take on new initiatives rather than adhering to those which have not succeeded. Within a week of the Drudy commission's report, the four local authorities in Dublin – Dublin Corporation, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, Fingal County Council and South Dublin County Council – published a similar report. The proposals contained in that report, which are radical and wide ranging, virtually mirrored those in the Drudy report and I will now outline a number of them.

Senator Gallagher indicated a number of the critical areas addressed in the Drudy report and those addressed by the local authorities were quite similar. In line with an initiative originally proposed at council level, the local authorities decided to approach the religious orders and various institutions asking if they could acquire some of their property. The response to this initiative has been remarkable and large tracts of land owned by religious orders which would previously have been put on sale on the open market are now the subject of quiet negotiations between them and the local authorities. The aim is to use the land for housing development. I do not know if the Minister of State is aware of that fact.

The local authorities have also put together a strategy to build 66,000 new homes along the lines recommended by Drudy. For example, 20 per cent of these developments will be made up of affordable housing and affordable co-operative schemes will be established. As suggested in the Drudy commission's report, the local authorities are also considering extending rent relief and they have agreed to the reintroduction of certificates of reasonable value which were originally introduced in Dublin 20 years ago.

The local authorities have given careful consideration to the money being spent by the Eastern Health Board. This amounts to approximately £40 million annually and we can take it that equivalent sums are being spent by other health boards. In the region of £80 million to £100 million is being spent and wasted on private rented accommodation each year. That money is not returnable and it goes straight into landlords' pockets. If it used that money, the State could build a substantial number of homes for those who need them.

When it was published, the Kenny report was regarded as a radical initiative because it advocated the compulsory acquisition of land for the purpose of house construction. There was a perception at the time that this might be unconstitutional. However, the Drudy commission obtained legal advice which states that this is not the case and the four local authorities in Dublin received similar advice. It appears we are now in a position to adopt the approach advocated by Kenny without fear of its constitutional validity being challenged. We should examine that carefully. That has always been put forward as a reason property could not purchased at a reasonable price or land purchased at a reasonable price for construction.

This is an obvious opportunity to amend the Constitution. It could be amended when the constitutional amendment discussed earlier to provide recognition for local authorities is put to the people. Why should we not also provide in the Constitution for the right of citizens to shelter in this State? The forthcoming referendum would be an ideal opportunity to put a second constitutional amendment to the people. That would ensure the basic civil and human right of every citizen to shelter in this State would be enshrined in the Constitution.

Those of us who are county councillors or city councillors meet people in our clinics on a daily basis who are unable to put a roof over their heads. They are unable to get a transfer from inadequate accommodation to decent accommodation or perhaps they are being evicted by landlords who know the marketplace will provide them with a greater return from another client. We must address this activity in the housing market. Approximately 50,000 people are in need of local authority housing, not to mention the number in the private sector. Nothing is being done to reduce the numbers in the public sector who are a burden on the local authorities.

The Drudy report recommended that new principles should be adopted in this area, those which the Land League advocated in the past – fair rent, free sale and fixity of tenure. The report recommended that we should adopt the old principles embedded in the Irish psyche from the last century and they would be valuable principles from which to embark. We should ensure people have a right to a roof over their heads and, if they are in rented accommodation, a right to a fair rent, fixity of tenure and a right to be able to purchase an affordable house.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Seanad Éireann welcomes the Government's wide-ranging initiatives to maximise and expedite the supply of housing, secure house price stabilisation, improve affordability and access by all income groups to sustainable housing accommodation, and ensure that the issues of housing supply and demand is addressed in the context of strategic development."

I welcome the Minister to the House. During my time in this House I have not seen a Minister and Minister of State work as hard in any Department as the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, or the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy. The Department of the Environment and Local Government has introduced more legislation dealing with housing, roads and other matters than any other Department, including the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I am taken aback by the Labour Party's motion. I agree with some but not all of the recommendations of the report. Many issues related to housing, which the Government is addressing, are not addressed in the report. They may have been omitted deliberately.

I have been a Members of this House and involved in local government for many years. During the 16 years from 1983-99 the Labour Party has been in Government for nine or ten years.

There was no housing crisis when we were in Government.

During that time they did not do much to address the housing problem in this country.

The housing crisis has arisen only in the past two years.

It is great to hear members of the Labour Party say they are worried about this issue and that they want to ensure that every citizen State has a roof over his head. It is the Government that is concerned about making accommodation available to all citizens and treating all citizens equally. That is enshrined in the Constitution. It is important to be honest about this matter and deal with the housing problem, which nobody denies.

For as long as I have been a Member of this House and particularly during this term, the Labour Party in Opposition has complained about legislation being rushed through and not having adequate time to consider it. I did not have enough time to read this housing report. It has been rushed through by the Labour Party. It is regrettable I did not have more time to read it as there is much I on which I would like to comment.

It was available last week.

I compliment Professor Drudy on saying that the Labour Party has never tried to influence thinking. That was greatly appreciated. Did he consult the Labour Party at all or how did this report, which is a Labour Party report, come about? How did Professor Drudy become involved in it? Did the Senator bid him "good day" at any time or feed him information?

The Senator can be assured he is very competent.

Senator Kiely should not provoke interruptions.

A person should practise what he or she preaches. I raised this problem when it first arose and the Minister took it on board immediately and started to address it. Statistics reveal that house prices fell in the latter half of last year. They have fallen by at least 2 per cent and have fallen again in the first quarter of this year. There is no doubt about that. House prices have stabilised. I will go one step further and say I am delighted there is a housing problem because it means our people can stay at home and get jobs thanks to the Government.

They cannot do that if they do not have houses.

People who had to emigrate have returned and have been able to secure meaningful employment. All of a sudden the Labour Party is saying we have a housing problem. If we have a housing problem, let us deal with it. It is not the end of the world. It seemed like the end of the world to me when I was young that I had to emigrate and I thought I might never again see my parents or brothers and sisters. That experience was a crisis for me and thousands of others. It was also a crisis for thousands of people in the 1980s for whom I helped to get visas in foreign countries. They had to go abroad to get employment and the Government of the day did not worry about whether they had a roof over their heads or a bob in their pockets. Nobody gave a tuppenny damn about them.

I am delighted to say we have a strong economy thanks to the Government and that we have a housing crisis because our students are staying at home and many people who emigrated are returning here to live. We must address the housing problem. People say it is a serious problem. It is, but it is not the end of the world and we are addressing it. They are ways of dealing with it. I would give a welcome to many parts of the report. One part of the report referred to a concern about a rise in interest rates and that there may be an economic downturn. That would be a problem, but the indications are that there will not be a downturn in the foreseeable future. I cannot see any change occurring in mortgage interest rates for the next 20, 30 or 40 years.

What a prophesy. The Senator is able to see 30 or 40 years into the future.

When I first went to the United States in the 1960s, when I was only a young fellow in short trousers, interest rates were 6.5 or 6.75 per cent and earlier this year mortgage interest rates were at or about that level. If they go up by a quarter or a half of 1 per cent there is a crisis. The day of 13 to 16 per cent mortgage rates is long gone, especially since we joined EMU. With some co-operation, the housing problem could be handled in many ways. The Government is doing its job and if money was provided for infrastructural development and the extension of water and sewerage schemes, extra land would come onto the market which would help deal with the sharks who have had land for the past 20 and 30 years and are now cashing in. The crisis would then be stabilised.

Tá an-áthas orm bheith ar ais sa Seanad arís chomh luath sin chun labhairt faoi pholasaí tithíochta an Rialtas. I am delighted to have the opportunity to address this House again on the crucially important subject of housing.

In December 1994, Labour Ministers took up office in two Departments of key influence in relation to housing – Environment and Finance. I mention this because this motion was put down by the Labour Party. Four years and four months later, the Labour Party launches a report on housing. The question is why during their two and a half years in Government they did not take any action to address the problems that were clearly developing in the housing area. Of course, it is not entirely correct to say that nothing was done. The trouble is that what was done made matters worse – like the hefty hike in stamp duty on middle of the range houses imposed in the 1997 budget. The result was that the cost of moving house became prohibitive. There was a major blockage in the secondhand housing market with the knock-on effect that houses were not being released to first time purchasers.

Is the Minister attacking Fianna Fáil?

Shortly after I became Minister with responsibility for housing and urban renewal, I commissioned a detailed study of the house prices issue. Even before the study was completed, we acted decisively to address the critical housing supply situation with the launch of a serviced land initiative in November 1997. If the previous Government had had the foresight or concern to take such an initiative, we would now be reaping the benefit of a large increase both in housing supply and in availability of serviced land.

The timing of this report says a lot about the Labour Party's belated concern about housing issues. It is clearly a part of their efforts to cobble together a platform for the forthcoming elections. It was also intended to generate some publicity for the recent meeting of the two wings of the party down in the heartland of old Labour. This artificial deadline did not leave the author very much time and it is not very surprising that the report leaves something to be desired. If the intention was to undermine the analysis of the Bacon reports and the approach taken in the Government's policy statements, I am afraid it has not done so.

I do not propose to take up the time of the House with a point by point critique of this document and indeed there is much in the report, particularly the aspirational aspects, with which I would not disagree. However, there are certain aspects with which I must take issue. For instance, the report asserts that there has been no discernible slowdown in the rate of house price increases since the implementation of the Government's Action on House Prices in April 1998. On the contrary, there was, in fact, a general easing of house price increases in the second half of 1998 and there is broad agreement that Government action played a major role in this. It is not just my Department that is saying this. First Active recently published figures showing increases of just 2 per cent nationally and 1.7 per cent in Dublin in the first quarter of 1999 which appears to confirm the trend in house price moderation.

The report contains a very curious statement that "increasing the supply of housing alone will not resolve this problem". We made clear when we launched our Action on House Prices last year that there is no single available measure to address the problems that had developed over the previous few years due to a range of factors. However, it is beyond dispute that increasing housing supply is the single most important and critical response. Without a large increase in housing supply there can be no resolution of the issue of house prices and the demand-supply imbalance.

The bulk of the report contains a lengthy compendium of proposals from a variety of sources. These have been included largely without comment or critical evaluation and I think the public is entitled to know where the Labour Party stands on some of these matters. For example, it would be interesting to know whether the Labour Party intends to implement the proposal in the report that, where local authority tenant purchasers wish to move to a different area or to a different house type, their house should be taken back into public ownership.

The shortcomings in the report have been further compounded by the statement issued at its launch by the Labour Party which does scant justice to the author's efforts on its behalf. It chose to omit from that statement a number of points made in the report which would of course lend support to the Government's approach. For example, there is no mention in the Labour Party statement of the need to address supply bottlenecks, the need for adherence to prudent lending criteria by mortgage lending agencies or the need for a strategic approach to development planning.

These issues have already been specifically targeted in the Government's response to the two Bacon reports and are being addressed effectively. That may explain these selective omissions. The only other possible interpretation is that Labour does not accept the importance of these issues. The Labour statement claims to be putting forward a "radically different strategy" to that proposed in the Bacon reports. Radically different perhaps, but a credible strategy, definitely not.

What is presented is a wish list of miscellaneous items which, I am afraid, lacks coherence. Many of these are, at best, of only marginal significance to the central issues affecting the housing market. Some are contradictory. Others appear to be based on what can only be regarded as the economics of illusion. For example, fair price certificates may sound a very worthy concept. However it can only involve artificial house price control under a new guise. The report fails to mention who will issue these fair price certificates or on what basis. A similar approach was tried in the past and proved ineffective and in many ways counter-productive. It would not cause a single extra house to be built. In fact, it could retard housing supply if, as would inevitably be the case, it gave rise to an elaborate bureaucratic process. Few, if any, credible commentators are seriously suggesting that artificial price control offers a sensible approach to addressing the real issues currently affecting the housing market.

Of course, the philosophy of control, regulation and State bureaucracy permeates the Labour Party statement. Even the terminology used betrays the underlying thinking. The statement is riddled with calls for "legislation", "inspection", "monitoring", "audit", "certification", "control", "licensing", "State interventions" and proposals for associated bureaucratic structures.

Mr. Ryan

Does the Minister trust the building industry?

Clearly the spirit of State centralism and bureaucratic control is alive and well in our new Labour Party. However, I suspect that the Labour manifesto for the forthcoming elections will not in fact contain the proposal for confiscation of tenant purchase houses that is referred to in the report.

Possibly the most damaging illusion that the Labour Party is attempting to sell is the fiction that real housing needs can in some magical way be met through legislation. Enactment of legislation to provide for a "right to housing" or even enshrining the principle in the Constitution is one thing, providing the necessary housing is quite a different matter.

And the Minister will not try.

Such lofty sentiments ring very hollow in a document that puts forward no coherent strategy to address the issue of housing supply. Legislation will not, I am afraid, build a single extra house. However, ill-considered legislation could have the capacity to prevent the building of houses.

The Labour statement also contains the observation that "housing is an imperfect market". The only place that the notion of a perfect market might be found is in the opening chapters of an elementary economics text book. If the authors of the statement had read a few more chapters they would have learned that the real world departs significantly from the text book model and that the task of Government is to manage and cope with these imperfections. That is precisely what the Government is doing through measures to enable the housing market to operate as effectively as possible by alleviating the bottlenecks whether in planning or serviced land supply and by intervening in the direct provision of housing through the affordable housing scheme.

The Government's efforts are already produc ing positive results. Last year's record housing output of 42,349 units was 26 per cent above the level of the previous Government's last full year in office – a remarkable increase in only two years.

Half of those were built in 1997.

What is even more encouraging is that output continues to expand in 1999. New house completions are up 24 per cent in the first quarter of 1999 compared with the same period last year. The most significant fact is that in the first three months of this year completions in Dublin, where output had been relatively sluggish, are 28 per cent higher than in the first quarter of 1998.

The serviced land initiative is expected to yield more than 100,000 additional serviced housing units in the next couple of years through £44 million in Exchequer funding for water, sewerage and roads infrastructure. More than 30,000 additional units will be serviced for residential development in the Dublin region alone. Procedures for schemes have been streamlined and I expect that works to release around 40,000 sites should reach construction this year. This momentum is set to continue and, indeed, accelerate with further major developments in the pipeline. The recent adoption of an area action plan for 1,400 new houses near Finglas is a good example. This is, of course, the first element in the targeted early release of up to 16,000 housing sites in the northern fringe of the city by the use of temporary sewerage facilities in advance of the completion of the northern fringe interceptor sewer in 2002.

Getting the maximum benefit from the supply of building land is also a key element of the Government's strategy and increased density is crucial to achieving this. Again, one will search in vain through the Labour Party statement for any acknowledgement of the importance of increased density, despite the wide acceptance of the benefits it can bring not only in increasing supply of affordable housing, but also in promoting sustainable development and greater efficiency in public transport and other public services.

Looking forward, the strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin region, launched last March, provide a basis for achieving more balanced distribution of population and economic activity. The guidelines aim to maintain a compact metropolitan area while developing strong and largely self-sustaining growth centres in the hinterland area. This will have a double benefit by facilitating increased housing supply in areas which have growth potential while, at the same time, reducing pressure of demand in Dublin and the immediate surrounding areas. These issues will also be addressed in a national context in the forthcoming National Development Plan. I regret that the failure of the recent Labour Party state ment to even mention these issues is an indication of its lack of strategic thinking.

The objective of ensuring that the housing market can operate effectively does not in any way imply a laissez faire approach on the part of the Government. On the contrary, it has undertaken a range of important well targeted measures in areas where direct intervention is warranted. I am conscious of the increased social housing need. The Government has responded by increasing Exchequer expenditure on housing from £220 million in the 1997 Estimates to £320 million in the 1999 Estimates – a 45 per cent increase in two years. The enhanced programme of 4,500 new starts in 1999 is the highest level since the mid-1980s.

However, I acknowledge that we must go even further. I have introduced for the first time a four year multi-annual local authority housing programme to meet the expanding needs and help deliver local authority housing more efficiently. This programme of 22,000 additional local authority houses will be equivalent to an increase of more than one-fifth on the existing local authority housing stock. The introduction of this programme is a clear indication of the Government's commitment to local authority housing as the mainstay of the overall response to social housing needs.

Although local authorities have traditionally been the dominant force in social housing provision, the voluntary housing sector has contributed in no small way to alleviating social housing needs in recent years. One of the major pluses of voluntary housing is the manner in which voluntary bodies have managed to secure close involvement and commitment of tenants in the running of their estates. This sector has the capacity, with proper support, to provide 4,000 to 5,000 units of accommodation per year and my efforts will be directed towards achieving this target over the coming years.

My target is to expand overall social housing output through a range of local authority and voluntary housing programmes to more than 16,000 households per annum over the next number of years compared to the output of less than 9,000 last year. The Government will provide funding to deliver social housing to almost 60,000 households over the next four years. My Department has already been in touch with all city and county managers requesting them to urgently put in place the necessary planning, including land acquisition, to ensure that these ambitious targets can be delivered on time.

The Government is addressing the issue of affordability on a number of fronts with a variety of initiatives. Measures introduced under last year's Action on House Prices have helped to assist affordability for lower income house buyers, particularly through withdrawal of investor incentives, reduced stamp duty and improvements in the local authority shared ownership scheme. Further innovative approaches to the issue of housing affordability are being pursued, including the promotion of a better mix of affordable type units in new developments and the recently launched local authority affordable housing scheme.

This scheme is an important new initiative to help bridge the affordability gap which rapid house price increases over the last few years have created for aspiring home purchasers. An essential feature of the scheme is that it is directly linked to the delivery of additional new houses by local authorities and will, therefore, not adversely affect house prices. In recent times, the spiralling cost of building has put output under the voluntary housing capital assistance scheme at serious risk.

Mr. Ryan

Prices are the problem not cost.

On becoming Minister, I was determined to ensure increased social housing provision.

Mr. Ryan

Building costs have not gone up, but prices have.

The Minister must be allowed to make his contribution without interruption.

My commitment to this scheme has been demonstrated in practice through increasing the limits of assistance twice within one year. Since the inception of the scheme, these represent the most significant increase, up to 67 per cent, in the level of funding. The voluntary housing schemes that were in place were languishing under the Labour Party when it was in Government because it failed to increase funding to keep pace with the prices being demanded in the marketplace and the social housing structure almost collapsed.

I am well aware of the importance of the private rented sector and the need to maximise its potential in meeting our housing objectives. After many years of decline, there has been renewed expansion and diversification in this sector in recent years, with significant growth in demand for, and supply of, good quality apartments. The improvements that have been achieved in private rented accommodation reflect, particularly, the success of the urban renewal schemes.

I am concerned to secure improved security of tenure for tenants in private rented accommodation. Consideration of this issue has to take account of both the complex nature of the landlord and tenant code and constitutional issues. The fair and equitable balance of rights between both landlords and tenants is not easily achieved. A poorly thought out legislative intervention in this area has the capacity to do more harm than good, a message clearly brought out in a Threshold conference on the private rented sector earlier this year. It is for this reason that the Govern ment has decided to establish a commission specifically to examine issues relating to security of tenure.

The Government has already taken steps to address the issue of student accommodation. The extension of section 23 type incentives to purpose built student accommodation is a well targeted initiative that will contribute to the provision of private rented accommodation for third level students and should ease pressures in the general rental market in the medium term. There already has been tremendous interest in these incentives and I understand that many third level institutions have been approached by developers seeking to provide student accommodation. It would appear that the Labour Party may have missed the boat in this instance by suggesting grants for student accommodation.

Regarding the housing needs of people with disabilities, the Government is committed to providing a better deal for those who are most disadvantaged in society. The 1999 budget significantly increased funding provided for schemes relating to the disabled, the elderly and the homeless. Following the review of the disabled persons grant scheme, I announced major improvements to the terms and conditions of the scheme, which had not been changed since 1993. The effective maximum grant has been increased by 50 per cent from £8,000 to £12,000 with the grant now covering up to three-quarters of the cost of the works to private houses, compared to two thirds previously. I and the Government have also made a commitment to keep these limits under review and they will be increased as required on an annual basis.

Because the Government recognises the complexity of homelessness and the number of agencies involved in providing accommodation and services for homeless people, it has established an interdepartmental team, chaired and serviced by my Department, to prepare an integrated response to the many problems which affect homeless people. The team has consulted statutory agencies and expert voluntary bodies dealing with homelessness and is expected to report in the near future. We also provided for the first "Foyer" for homeless people in the budget. "Foyers" are specifically designed and managed to provide both accommodation and training opportunities for young homeless people. l am pleased that the £1 million made available in the budget, along with funding from the capital assistance scheme, will ensure that this project will go ahead.

The Government gave a commitment in An Action Programme for the Millennium to create a new deal for travellers. The enactment and implementation of the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act, 1998, is a very significant step in this process. The Act will ensure that housing authorities provide a planned, integrated and comprehensive response to the accommodation needs of travellers and especially the 1,100 traveller families who live on the roadside or in unofficial encampments. Local authorities, in consultation with travellers, are required to prepare and adopt five year programmes to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs in their areas. The Act also provided for public input to this process. New powers have also been given to local authorities to control unauthorised encampments and to deal with anti-social behaviour on caravan sites.

Housing is at the top of the Government's priorities. The Government's response to overall housing needs is a coherent, connected and strategic one. I have outlined the range of actions being taken by the Government across the housing spectrum and I reject the suggestion that the Government, through lack of commitment or for any other reason, has overlooked a simple solution that has been found by the Labour Party.

Mr. Ryan

Ideology.

While I acknowledge that problems exist, this Government has taken steps to address them and the effects are beginning to become apparent. Some of the measures will naturally take longer to impact on the market. We are not resting on our oars. I am putting structures and procedures in place in my Department to ensure that all aspects of infrastructural development which impinge on housing supply are prioritised.

The priority afforded by this Government to the housing area and the direction and force of Government policies are widely and sometimes generously acknowledged as correct. It amazes me that Senators, councillors and particularly Deputies of the Labour Party who like to highlight problems in the housing area are the ones who, at local level, contribute very significantly to a continuation of the problem—

I hope the Minister is not talking about Offaly County Council.

—through their objections at regional courts and council meetings. They object to the zoning of additional land to facilitate an expansion in the housing programme and this shortage increases the price of houses. Until we get away from that dilemma and hypocrisy and local authorities avail of the social housing and other schemes—

If the Minister of State gave us money we would be well able to spend it.

The money is there to buy the land.

How much did Offaly County Council get for the serviced building land initiative?

The local authorities are not taking up the initiative to increase the land banks. It appears to suit the Labour Party to cry about the problem but they do little about it.

A £60,000 serviced building land initiative.

I was pleased to hear the Kenny report referred to. I appointed the people to the committee who carried out that review. They published their report in 1973 shortly after the Fianna Fáil Government went out of office. A Labour Minister was in office in 1973 but action was not taken. There have been Labour Ministers on three or four different occasions since then, one of whom was Minister for Finance. He frequently grumbled at the lack of action in controlling the price of building land but he did nothing about it. Yet, as soon as these people are in Opposition they raise all these issues again.

And the Minister does not like to hear them.

It is nice, safe and comfortable for the Senator to bring forward policies here that lie redundant and gather dust while his party is in Government. Can he not see the hypocrisy of this?

Did the Minister of State read the report?

The Senator also referred to certificates of reasonable value. I introduced them in 1971 or 1972 and, having done so, and, having considered their effect, cost and contribution in increasing bureaucracy, I admit that they did not achieve the objectives for which we had hoped. I would be the last person to seek to reintroduce a certificate of reasonable value. We know how difficult it is to plan, develop and bring to fruition a housing scheme. We know how difficult it is to get the planning process through the local authority system and then through An Bord Pleanála, if it goes that far. To add another layer of bureaucracy in the area of certificates of reasonable value or fair price without letting us know how it would work, and just lobbying it in as a simple solution, is not good enough.

The housing market is driven by the imbalance between the supply of houses and, happily, the huge demand in our economy due to success, the number of people who are returning from abroad, the number of people who do not have to go abroad to seek employment, the creation of new jobs and the rapid increase in the household formation age group which contributes to a large increase in demand for housing. All we have to do is increase the output and supply of housing and bring it into an equilibrium and balance with that demand. All these other artificial things will not get us any closer but will add further bureaucracy and delays in the system. They have all been tried before.

A certificate of reasonable value will not control the price of a second hand house. A person controls a house and then gets it at a controlled price. It can be immediately put into the private market and the capital gain can be taken on the difference between the control price and what the market is paying. It totally discredited the system. It is foolish to bring this matter forward here when none of the Opposition Ministers since 1973, when I left the Department, has ever attempted to do anything of that nature. The Labour Party throws common sense out the window when it is in Opposition and, happily, it does not do too much damage when in Government.

I welcome the report prepared by Professor P.J. Drudy and the commission. It is an excellent and comprehensive document. It dealt with every aspect of the housing crisis and examined in detail the housing market in historic and contemporary terms. I was a schoolboy friend of Professor Drudy and I compliment him on his report. The Minister does not like what he produced. There is an excellent analysis on the crisis that faces us and one of the basic points made by Professor Drudy is that 135,000 people are in need of appropriate housing. That is an enormously high figure given the state of the Irish economy and the boasting of the Minister on its performance. There are 43,000 people are on local authority waiting lists; there were 18,000 people on the local authority waiting lists in 1987. Professor Drudy and his committee told us that the average price of a house in 1994 was 4.3 times the average industrial wage. In 1998, the figures prepared by the Department of Environment and Local Government showed that the average cost of a house was six and a half times the average industrial wage. Is the Minister suggesting that is success? Is he concerned that type of trend has to be disastrous when most people in the average income bracket – most of us – aspire to own their own house?

There is an excellent analysis in a table on page 6 of the report which looks at the affordability of houses and the adverse effects they have for so many people. The graph on the back of page 5 of the report shows the gap has widened significantly between the average wage and the average price of a house since this Government came into office in 1997. Up to 1995 the price of houses and labour ran parallel but after 1995 the line on the graph for housing started to move upwards. It is significant that after 1997 and 1998, and no doubt in 1999, a huge gap opened up. The Minister of State told us that the average loan advanced towards the purchase of a new house in 1993 was £55,037 but the average loan advanced for the purchase of a similar sized house in 1998 had risen to £97,834. In Dublin, for instance, the average loan advanced in 1993 was £59,492. The average loan advanced for the purchase of the same house in 1998 was £124,243. One-third of the population now resides in Dublin. The figures for Galway are very interesting. The average loan advanced in 1993 was £58,879 compared with £92,798 in 1998.

The rather bombastic remarks made by the Minister of State about the success of the Government in relation to the housing crisis ring hollow when compared with those figures. He also made much about growth in local authority housing. Yes, there has been significant growth in local authority housing in recent years. All Governments deserve credit for that. The number of local authority housing units built in 1975 was 8,794. The number of local authority housing units built last year was 2,778. By comparison with the number of local authority housing units in place in 1975 – over 20 years ago – what we are achieving today is nothing to boast about; indeed, it is nothing to be proud of. In the 1960s 20 per cent of our housing stock was provided by local authorities and the rate of building kept that figure stable. Today less than 9 per cent of our housing stock is provided by the local authorities.

It is very interesting to note that ten years ago 37 per cent of house purchases were made by people in the higher income brackets; that figure has now risen to well above 50 per cent. This information is the result of an examination of affordability among social classes. The percentage of skilled and unskilled people in a position to purchase their homes has fallen by 6 or 7 per cent in ten years; the percentage of farmers and fishermen – the class from which I come – purchasing their own homes has fallen by 1 per cent in ten years. We must be thankful to Professor Drudy for the information he has gleaned and brought together in a very comprehensive way.

Mention was made of the interventions by local authorities in house repairs for the elderly. The local authority in my area ran out of funding for essential repairs and housing assistance for the elderly in June. They had no funding whatsoever for six months.

The Senator should look at the amount provided by his party in Government. It has been substantially increased. Those schemes were neglected by the Senator's party in Government.

There was a shortfall in the amount of money provided by the Minister of State's Department. It is all part of the bad record this Government has in relation to housing.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I am sure he and you, Sir, will share in my wonderment and bafflement as to this Pauline conversion which arrived when the Labour Party went into Opposition—

It is a little like the Progressive Democrats' conversion on social spending.

—having spent several years in Government with a senior Minister in the Department of the Environment and Local Government accompanied by a junior housing Minister in that Department and a Finance Minister.

We never had a problem like this.

The Minister has catalogued the series of initiatives which have taken place over the past two years. I cannot recall, and I would be very interested if the Labour Party could assist me, in recounting the series of initiatives which its Government took when in power.

It is not working.

What this Government is doing is living with the legacy of neglect, dealing with it effectively—

Mr. Ryan

Wasting the prosperity.

—and ensuring there is an adequate supply of housing for people in the private sector and that there will be a much greater supply of housing than there has ever been in the history of this State. Perhaps a greater number of houses were built in the 1950s or early 1960s but to my recollection there has not been a greater number built in any year than will be built under the control of this Minister with responsibility for housing.

The initiative which the Government took in effecting the Bacon report has had a profound effect on the housing market. Statistics are available in respect of the increase in house prices in the first quarter of this year relative to the first quarter of last year and that increase is below the level of inflation. Relative to previous increases, that is a singular achievement. To suggest, with no knowledge of economics or even a very superficial one, that the supply side of the equation has nothing to do with prices is to fly in the face of logic. Of course the supply side is critical. It is not the only factor but it is a significant one.

As a member of Kildare County Council I have sat in bafflement at successive council meetings to hear Labour Party members oppose every zoning in Maynooth, Leixlip and Celbridge. If that is what they wish to do so be it, but do not then come to the next council meeting and tell us that the price of housing is escalating and nothing can be done about it.

Will rezoning make house prices any cheaper?

I declare an interest; I own zoned land in County Kildare. The problem is that my zoned land is very valuable and would not be nearly as valuable if far more land was zoned.

It would be scarce.

A Deputy from Kildare who became a Minister for social housing lectured Kildare County Council from the full height of his indignation – and that is a very considerable height – on the housing crisis. I wonder what was done when he was in Government.

He started a housing programme which the Senator's party decimated when in coalition with Fianna Fáil on a previous occasion.

Senator Dardis, without interruption.

I thank the Chair for your protection. As to the old cant of fair rent and fixity of tenure, that disregards what was done under the Gladstone Land Acts which gave us the land. We own the land which was talked about in those Acts.

Mr. Ryan

Senator Dardis does, others do not.

The farmers of Ireland do. To suggest that this is not the most indepth analysis of the housing problem this decade does not hold water. That is to disregard what Dr. Bacon has done. One might agree or not with Dr. Bacon's analysis, but nobody could contest that it is the most in-depth analysis this decade. We are being confronted with something I had thought the Labour Party had abandoned.

Mr. Ryan

The Senator is wrong.

Some of the most left-wing governments in Europe have abandoned stateism, paternalism and the mentality that the State should decide what should be done for the people. That is what we are confronted with.

That is an unfair comment on the report.

I wonder how Senator Connor will be able to go through the lobbies with that stateism this evening when we vote on this issue.

I have no difficulty agreeing with almost everything in this report.

Acting Chairman

Senator Connor, you spoke for nine minutes—

Acting Chairman, you should not allow a Member—

Acting Chairman

—and Senator Dardis is now speaking.

The Acting Chairman gave Senator Connor several seconds, so perhaps he will also indulge me. The final indignity is to hold a moral imperative over the religious orders.

(Interruptions).

They say they will force the religious orders, through some undefined moral authority, to divest themselves of land.

I ask Senator Dardis to withdraw that statement. It was not asserted by anybody on this side of the House. Senator Costello gave an account of what has been done by agreement between local authorities and religious orders. I request Senator Dardis to withdraw that remark.

Acting Chairman

Senator Dardis without interruption.

I thought the whole idea was for the religious orders to divest themselves of the land. I thought that was the object of the exercise. Even if they divested themselves of all their land I do not know what effect it would have. They should not be confronted by a moral imperative which is totally unfair.

Is the Senator saying they should not sell it to councils?

(Interruptions).

The Labour Party, which is so caring in respect of all great social issues, is the same Labour Party which assented to the tax amnesty. Goodness gracious, how things change.

I am sure they regret it now.

The Minister has enunciated what has been done. Capital gains tax was reduced to 20 per cent and what happened? The supply of building land increased. The Minister introduced the serviced land initiative. Stamp duty was reduced. Any auctioneer around the country will indicate that the biggest single influence on increasing house prices was the rise in stamp duty in 1997.

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman

Senator Dardis, your time is up.

We have the Bacon report, the scheme for affordable housing, the planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area, the section 23 provision for student accommodation and the grants for disabled persons. What more do the Senators want?

The grants for disabled persons are not much.

It falls to me to throw a little light on this overheated situation. I am sure no one on the other side of the House meant to infer anything, but it is important to point out that Professor Drudy, who is my friend and constituent, was independent in drawing up this report. It was commissioned by the Labour Party. Professor Drudy is in the Visitors' Gallery of the House tonight with a member of his commission and I would not like anyone to suggest in any way that it was not an independent report.

It is useless for the Government or any of us to commission academic reports if people then say that because the Government commissioned it one would expect the report to follow a certain line. There is no good in shooting the messenger when one is not keen on the message.

I did not mention the professor.

The Senator did, but he said that as the gentleman was not in the House he would not name him.

Senator Dardis tried to disparage him.

I did not.

This is a most useful report. Senator Connor obviously got a great deal of information from it, as did I. It was useful in that it looked at the international position, particularly with regard to our European partners. While Professor Drudy did not mention it, apartment prices in cities such as Paris are cheaper than those in Dublin.

I also felt it was useful to show the change in renting and owning accommodation in this country in only one generation. Professor Drudy describes them as owner-occupied and I am inclined to disagree with that. About 30 years ago, 60 per cent of houses were owned by the bank and the occupier, while nowadays 80 per cent of houses are owned by the bank or building society and the occupier. More of that property is owned by the bank or building society than the owner-occupier. Everyone now accepts that the enormous loans given to people, which far exceed the guidelines suggested by the Central Bank, have been very important in increasing house prices.

I accept the points made about the lack of supply which is an important factor. Last year I was in Washington where apartment prices were cheaper than in Dublin. When I asked my hosts how prices were kept down, they replied that people simply built more. It is important for us to have a supply of houses. However the fact that people can now borrow almost any amount must be important.

Last week the chairman of the Central Bank warned lending institutions not to go outside lending guidelines. All such economic activity is bound to have social repercussions which could be terribly serious if we end up with more people having their houses repossessed. A few years ago, banks and building societies were in a bad light because they were repossessing houses on a daily basis. One could read of houses being taken from people in the courts. This has decreased since we are paying the interest for those who fall into trouble, for example as a result of becoming redundant. This has been nice for the banks and other lending institutions because they are not featuring as the bad guys in newspaper reports. I have not seen such a report for a long time.

A radio advertisement which urges people to cash in endowment policies interests me. I wonder how many people are cashing in endowment policies below their value because they are stuck trying to make repayments.

As I am sure the Minister remembers, the Governor of the Central Bank warned building societies not to lend above the guidelines – which I believe are two and a half times the first income plus one and a quarter times the second income – and not to take notional lodgers and rents into account where no rent book is produced. We know the banks will lend to anyone. They will even lend to single women. When we are down to that, we know it is serious. Until a few years ago, a single women could not hope to own a house – unless she was an heiress – because the banks would not lend her money. Money is now being lent right, left and centre and anybody can borrow it. One has to question the ability of many to repay. Even if they do not experience negative equity – the wonderful phrase coined in England a few years ago which means one has lost money on the property – if there is a hiccup in their lives, it could make a very serious difference to their ability to repay.

Senator Costello spoke of the importance of local authority housing and the prominence it is being given in the local elections. It is not only constituents in housing estates who are asking about this.

Senator Kiely talked about our good economy and how people are returning. They are returning, but many young graduates have contacted me to tell me they have been offered jobs here but they do not know how they might afford a house. A young man I know threw caution to the wind, as he said himself, and sold his flat near London for £95,000. He asked me how he would get a place to live near the centre of Dublin. He cannot drive. He has a medical condition which precludes him from driving so he wants somewhere within commuting distance of the city on public transport. I replied that I did not know. He is coming back anyway because he has a decent job and has been anxious to return to Ireland. We must recognise that many firms who are looking for graduates to return will not be able to get them unless we get a hold on the housing situation.

There are many opportunities for people to make an enormous amount of money out of second homes by buying them at very low mort gage rates and renting them at very high prices to people such as my friend who wish to return to Ireland. If, or when, they fall into trouble, they can sell them on. This causes great difficulty for genuine first time buyers who are trying to get into the market. With regard to gazumping, there must be someone in the Minister of State's Department who can work out a method by which this practice can be prevented.

In the report Professor Drudy refers to high density and low quality housing. I do not think that the two necessarily go together. There are nice rows of red brick houses in Glasnevin which were built around the turn of the century. Much of that area is very high density, the roads are not very wide and the houses are not on very large plots of land but they are very high quality. Perhaps we should look again at the issue of density, particularly in the city, because not everyone wishes to grow carrots in the back garden or to mow a large front lawn. I would like to see this issue addressed when planning in the future.

New houses are very expensive and I agree with the Minister of State that it is not possible to say they should be of adequate value. A large number of these houses seem to be very badly finished with poor workmanship.

I am pleased to hear that Minister of State will look further at the needs of the disabled, the homeless and others with special housing needs. If we allow people at the lower end of the market to become involved in initiatives of their own, we might find that they are better than we thought at finding solutions.

I am pleased that the Labour Party tabled this motion. I support the amendment because it indicates what is being done to resolve this acute problem. I welcome the Labour Party's motion because it shows that they have no policy other than theory. The proposer's statement is riddled with calls for legislation, inspection, monitoring, audit, certification, controls, licensing, State interventions and proposals for associated bureaucratic structures. I would like the debate to be rational and to attempt to address the serious problems that exist. I say sincerely to the Labour Party that ideology alone will not solve the problems. The initiatives taken by the Government are far-reaching and will solve the problems.

Let me set out the background to the problem. If one looks at the participation in Government by the Labour Party in recent years – they are the longest serving party in Government in the period from 1980 to the present – not only was there not a progressive housing policy but we witnessed the departure of our people from our shores because of the economic climate that prevailed. Since the late 1980s we have witnessed the economic prosperity which has led to the migration of people into the country. In the past four or five years there has been a rapid return of our people to their homeland. However, one must accept that there is a shortage in the private housing market as a result of the absence of any planning policy whatsoever by the Government in power until 1997. I say this honestly and openly and it cannot be denied.

Although I am new to this House, I have been involved in local government for a considerable period. I am sick and tired of reading in the print media and listening to reports on television and radio about what councillors are doing throughout the country. The Drudy report and the Labour Party statement does not address the fact that one cannot build public or private housing if land is not available. I am sick and tired of being lectured to by members of the Labour Party who have opposed the zoning of land for housing throughout the country. I am sick and tired of encountering in the media people who have now become experts on land zoning. If people prefer to see green fields and cattle rather than people, then they should say so.

The Labour Party has not faced up to the fundamental issue that it cannot implement any aspect of the policy it has produced without the zoning and provision of land. As a county councillor for many years, I am tired of this nonsense and lecturing. Unless local authorities are prepared to carry out the necessary work, there may be a need for State intervention to ensure that the necessary land is provided.

The provision of services is equally important. I commend the Government on initiatives such as the serviced land initiative. This scheme assists local authorities to provide serviced land for houses building, whether public or private. I commend the Government on the rural towns and villages initiative. This scheme provides services for house building and the provision of housing. There is also the affordable housing scheme which the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, introduced a couple of months ago. This is a good scheme. The Minister of State should ensure that local authorities carry out this function. There is also the social housing policy, shared ownership and the voluntary housing schemes. These schemes will be funded by central Government if local authorities are prepared to implement them. Some local authorities are exceptionally good at implementing such schemes but others are not. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that all local authorities play their role.

There is a gross imbalance in the growth and need for housing in this country, which is concentrated on the east coast and in Dublin. This is as a result of policies in the past which have drawn people from the rural areas to the east coast and Dublin. This is creating a great social problem. I would like to think that problem will be addressed during the lifetime of this Government, to ensure a population spread in rural Ireland.

I was told I was wrong when I said the Labour Party and other members of local authorities are not playing their proper role. However, what happened in Dublin Corporation a few weeks ago when land in Pelletstown was being zoned for housing is a clear indication that I am right. The vote was 23 for each side and the Labour Party voted to ensure land was not available for housing. I would welcome progressive thinking from the Labour Party on the provision of land for housing. Local authorities should work together to ensure that land is provided for houses.

I commend the Government and the Minister of State in particular for the many initiatives taken over the past two years. He was Minister for Local Government in 1971.

Many things have happened to him since then.

He introduced the certificate of reasonable cost at that time. However, he acknowledged that was not a good system because the price of second hand houses could not be regulated. We cannot regulate the price of new houses because one can buy a new house today and sell it tomorrow for double the price.

As someone who is an Independent and not involved in partisan wrangling, this is a sad and lamentable debate. The Minister of State did not contribute to it; his speech was appalling. I am not a member of a party but the ranting ideological partisan display does not advance the debate. I am sure the Minister of State had some points to make but he made them in a way which did not advance the debate.

I cannot understand why the Government needed to amend the motion. Why is it so insecure? The 38 recommendations at the end of this report are perfectly sane. To which do the Minister of State and his advisers object? They seem reasonably sensible to me and they are not provided by the Labour Party.

It is clear from the introduction to the report that this is not a partisan document but an honest and intellectual attempt to add to reasoned debate. However, that is not what we have had this evening. Having read the report, I accept that Professor Drudy's independence is vindicated and that should isolate it from the partisan cheap shots directed at it today.

There is a significant problem with housing and it does not matter to people which party was responsible for it. I ask the political parties to grow up. We know it is local election time but we should not play politics with the future and hopes of the people and that is what we have been doing here this evening. I regret and deplore that. Those nodding their heads have agreed with me in private that that is what is happening. Let us not have any hypocrisy.

The Bacon report was an important contribution but it was limited because it dealt with market housing and owner occupied homes. There was little emphasis placed on the innate cultural right, even if it is not in the Constitution, of every citizen to have an affordable home. We should be arguing for a fair price so that people are able to get their housing at a reasonable price.

The analysis of trends in the document is interesting. From 1961 to 1991 local authority housing decreased from 18.4 to 9.7 per cent. Private rental accommodation decreased from 17.2 to 8 per cent. Owner occupation increased from 59.8 to 79.3 per cent and the other categories remained stable at 4.6 to 5 per cent. There is a great shift in the level of owner occupation which was already high. House prices increased from approximately £60,000 to £100,000 – a 71 per cent increase – between 1994 and 1998.

The report states that home ownership is now beyond the reach of most people. Does the Minister of State challenge that? People are complaining about it. The report looked at the relationship between the price of houses and the average industrial wage, which shows an increasing gap. Low interest rates facilitate mortgage lending and fuel the price of houses.

There is also the question of holding back land. I laugh when I hear people, particularly on the other side of the House, talking about land. Are we deaf to what has been going on in the tribunals? Do we not know about these zoning scandals and that people made millions of pounds which they stuffed into brown envelopes in their back pockets?

Houses were built which would not have been built.

Mr. Ryan

Nobody gave money to the Labour Party for rezoning or for election costs.

Something must be done about this. I pay tribute to Dublin Corporation for its social housing programme, particularly the houses over the shops off Capel Street and Parnell Street. These houses are funded by the rent from the shops underneath. That is an excellent development.

I do not have time to discuss the 38 recommendations in this report but they are reasonable, fair, balanced and decent. The Minister of State mentioned a previous Government's foresight or concern. I remind him that his present partners in Government were also partners in that Government. Is he attacking Fianna Fáil? Is there a split showing?

Mr. Ryan

It is getting bigger.

I am concerned because I do not want an election, but the he seems to be signalling there might be one. He also mentioned the Labour Party's belated concern. Why did he engage in cheap partisan shots? Why did he massage the figures? He said that "First Active has recently published figures showing increases of just 2 per cent nationally and 1.7 per cent in Dublin". To what period does that refer? Is it monthly, quarterly or annually? What does it conceal?

The report states that "increasing the supply of housing alone will not resolve this problem". That seems a sensible statement but the Minister of State finds it curious. Perhaps that is because it is in the report. He also said there ". . . is no mention in the Labour Party's statement of the need to address supply bottlenecks, the need for adherence to prudent lending criteria by mortgage lending agencies, or the need for a strategic approach to development planning". That is all in the Drudy report. What is the Minister of State talking about? He quoted from the report when he said the Labour Party statement also contains the observation that "housing is an imperfect market". I do not know to what Labour Party statement the he is referring, but that is in the report. A few cheap shots are taken at the report. The Minister of State has obviously not read it, although perhaps some of his minions have and produced his undergraduate speech.

The report states:

The price of owner-occupied housing is therefore determined by the interaction of these various factors affecting demand and supply. This is the so-called "housing market". If this market were perfect and were operating efficiently, it would have certain characteristics, including free entry of suppliers. However, the market is in fact a highly imperfect one and displays significant "blockages", especially on the supply side. These include the slow release and availability of land, delays with planning permission and services mentioned above.

Acting Chairman

The Senator has one minute left

In fairness – I am using Fianna Fáil language – I had no hand, act or part in the row, so I want injury time.

Acting Chairman

I am being impartial.

You are wasting my one minute. I suggest the Minister of State reads the report and avoids the cheap partisan shots in which he has been engaged. It is a pity he did so. I have no difficulty in supporting this report which is clear and is carefully worked out. When the Minister of State says the only place the notion of a perfect market might be found is in an elementary economics textbook, that is precisely what I mean by the kind of cheap shot one gets in an undergraduate debate. Let us have a real debate about the housing needs of ordinary people and not a couple of political parties scoring points. That way lies disaster for ordinary people. Somebody on the housing list listening to this debate would say, "A pox on both parties". I would echo that.

In terms of the need for social housing, what about single people, in particular single men and single gay men? I am thinking especially of one case—

Acting Chairman

I will have to blow the whistle. The Senator is a minute over time.

—which I draw to the attention of this House, a man who returned because his sister offered him accommodation. Her husband did not know he was gay or that he had HIV. He developed AIDS and had to leave the apartment and be put into hostels. Is this caring for all the citizens of our State equally? Let us have a real social policy. The Minister is a good Minister and he has done practical things for people. Tonight's speech was a mistake and I hope he learns from it.

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on the initiatives he has taken since coming to office. When I hear Senators speak about percentages it always reminds me of the 1950s in a little village in my part of the country where representations were made for years for an agricultural instructor. Eventually they got the instructor. After 12 months, progress was reviewed in the local hall. This was in the days when it was one more sow, one more cow, one more acre under the plough. The sow population had increased by 100 per cent. Everyone was talking and asking about it. Towards the end of the night it was made known that an old man at the bottom of the town who used to have one sow now had two.

There are three reasons for the housing market problems. There is not enough building land and many planning officers in the past did not see the need for housing and did not make enough development land available. In Sligo we have always had good planning officers and at present we have a development and planning officer who looks to the needs of the people and there are not the problems experienced in many other areas.

Another problem is planning restrictions. It is sad that sons and daughters who want to build houses on their father's land are denied that right. Instead they are forced to buy sites at enormous prices when they could have a site for nothing and build up the community. That problem should be dealt with. Where a father or mother decides to give sites to the members of their family they should be allowed to build on that land. There is too much said about such development being a blot on the landscape, too intensive, generating too much traffic on to a narrow road etc. Those excuses will have to stop. People will have to be allowed to build if they get sites at home.

Objections are very serious. There was a time when the decision of An Bord Pleanála was final and people accepted it. I attended a meeting three or four years ago where a very active solicitor was in attendance. He advised there was no way they could stop the development that was within the law and the development plan. However, he did say, "We can stop it. We will get a man of straw to object to it and we will bring it to the courts. We will make it so expensive that this man will not be able to build four houses". That is what happened.

A law will have to be introduced to deal with An Bord Pleanála because the courts are running the country, rather than the Government and the bodies set up to do it. I wonder what expertise judges have in planning laws and in environmental issues. This week we read in our newspapers that a county council granted planning permission which An Bord Pleanála confirmed, yet a judge said it was not based on good law. What is good law? How does the ordinary man or woman define it? That system will have to stop. We should put people into An Bord Pleanála whose decision should be final.

Another part of the problem is the availability of money. I had been in the auctioneering business for many years. In the 1970s and the 1980s I saw three and four farmers going to the same bank and bidding for land against one another. Eventually the building societies, banks and all involved stopped this lackadaisical approach and said it would have to put a cap on the amount given out. Giving out money to four, five and six people to bid against each other creates a false market. The more money given out the more interest the banks etc. get in return. Something will have to be done about capping the value of property.

Somebody spoke recently about the number of houses local authorities had. Pádraig Flynn, when Minister for the Environment and Local Government, decided to sell off houses to long-time tenants in this city and all over the country. This was the best thing ever done.

Mr. Ryan

Did he have to work for it?

He did a good job. If the Senator goes around his own city of Cork and housing estates which were built in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and the early 1970s he will see they all have their own identification. People are keeping these houses well. The lawns are well kept. Their home is their castle. They admire it and do a good job on it. Great credit is due to the people who bought those houses. A higher percentage of people here own their own houses than any other country in Europe, thanks to Fianna Fáil in government.

In my county Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil were sensible. We came together for meetings and looked at land. If we thought there was a need for houses and development they were provided. Unfortunately we had Labour and socialist councillors who opposed everything we did.

Mr. Ryan

They were well able for you.

What happened them? We were tired telling them. When the Senator was in the Labour Party he thought he would get to Europe but he did not. There is no need to sing the praises of Labour yet. A Fianna Fáil Government introduced the shared ownership scheme which provided housing for many people. This meant they had to borrow less money and could own their own houses, having got them at a reasonable price.

The present Minister has introduced affordable housing schemes. There is no doubt the Minister is doing a good job at a difficult time, thanks to the buoyancy and our progressive country. It is great to see people coming from foreign countries seeking and finding employment. During past elections the slogans asked when would Fianna Fáil would do something about the emigration problem. We have done it, we have turned the tide and there are more people at work today than ever before. More people own their own houses. One has only to look around the country at the number of houses and cranes at construction sites in every town and village. Over the next two years what is known as the housing crisis will have a satisfactory conclusion. An increasing number of people will be proud to own their own houses and, given the buoyant economy, they will be able to pay for them.

I support the motion. The Minister of State and the Department should consider the points in the report in relation to rental accommodation and, particularly, private rental accommodation. It concludes that the current registration system is completely ineffective and is not doing what it was set up to do. The valid recommendations in the report in relation to private rental accommodation are highly commendable and the Department should take them on board.

In many cases health boards are subsidising private rental accommodation. Extraordinarily high rents are demanded for some of the accommodation, although the standard is appalling. The fact that public bodies, such as health boards, are subsidising such accommodation is wrong and there is an onus on the Department of Health and Children and the Department of the Environment and Local Government to rectify this matter urgently.

Ordinary wage earners are facing a crisis with regard to private ownership. Unfortunately, ordinary professionals cannot afford to buy their own homes in any of the thriving towns and cities, including Tralee, Ennis, Limerick, Galway and Dublin. In addition, lending authorities are giving out much more money than the recommended two and a half times the main income. That is fine when interest rates are at 5 and 6 per cent, but it is not that long ago that the rates were 16 per cent and higher. If a scenario arises where the world economy changes dramatically, there will be serious difficulties in Ireland and a serious social fall out. There is an onus on us to focus much more closely on that aspect. Everybody knows why the cost of houses is now so exorbitant and there is an onus on us to address the issue.

Senator Farrell noted that there are cranes all over Dublin and elsewhere. Some of them are there because of the various tax incentive schemes that were introduced, such as the scheme for Temple Bar and the holiday resorts scheme in various towns. However, it is impossible for locals in towns such as Kilkee, Lahinch and Achill to buy their own house because of exorbitant prices which are the result of tax incentives. If the Government proposes to introduce a tax incentive scheme in a local authority area in the future, it should consult the relevant local authority beforehand. It must ensure that the scenario which has arisen in Kilkee, Lahinch, Ballybunion and elsewhere, where locals are prohibited from purchasing houses, does not recur in the future. Well-off people with huge incomes who wish to reduce their tax liability buy the houses. Locals are not even at the races. They cannot compete. This is not good for rural communities and small towns and the situation must be redressed.

What about the seaside resorts scheme?

We are fully aware of the impact of that scheme. While major infrastructure has been put in place, it has had a detrimental effect on local communities. This aspect needs to be considered in discussions with county managers and county councils. The local development plan also needs to be considered in addition to the infrastructural aspects. There is a need for the Department of the Environment and Local Government to consult the Department of Finance and for them to work in tandem to ensure the necessary water and sewerage services and roads are put in place for these developments.

With regard to local authority housing, the highly commendable shared ownership scheme is now available. However, because the price of houses has risen by so much, the ceiling is too low in many larger towns. The Minister of State should examine this aspect and consider raising the ceiling to at least £60,000. The current limit of £40,000 is unacceptable.

On council housing, I am pleased that a number of local authorities and small urban councils are taking on board the partnership approach and introducing a tenant management system. This is highly commendable and is also recommended in the report. It should be taken on board by all local authorities. The tenants involved have a vested interest and are given particular responsibilities for their housing scheme. A management team is put in place with responsibility for the area. It gives tenants a sense of belonging to a partnership for their housing scheme. If this system was adopted on a wide basis, people would have more pride in their homes and there would be less need for local authorities to provide money for repairs. Tenants would ensure that their houses are well maintained.

The general principles in the report are highly commendable and the Department of the Environment and Local Government should aspire to implementing at least the common sense proposals. It would not cost a large amount and the measures would be commendable from the points of view of the Department and local authorities and for the general good of people. We must remember that if people are living in good housing conditions and a pleasant environment, they automatically feel much better. There are better conditions in their community, fewer social problems and less fall out from the social crises which occur in some housing estates. The recommendations are worthwhile and I urge the Minister of State to accept the motion and to adopt the report's proposals.

I wish to share my time with Senator Ryan.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

See how flexible we can be.

I am delighted this debate has taken place and I thank Senators who contributed. I am disappointed the Minister of State did not address the four basic principles and the almost 40 recommendations in the report. When I studied logic I was taught that the argumentum ad hominem was the least valid line of argument to use in a debate. One only used it when one was in trouble and had nothing else to say. Unfortunately, that is what we got from the Minister of State this evening. The four basic principles and associated comprehensive policy recommendations made in Professor Drudy's report would serve as a positive contribution to the current housing debate and solve the problems which exist.

I am sorry the Minister of State engaged in scaremongering by saying that the Labour Party would take houses from local authority tenants. This is not included in the principles or the recommendations.

The Senator did not read them.

The Minister of State obviously did not read the report. Somebody told him something was in it, but that is not the case. A comparison between the position now and four years ago is not valid. I remember canvassing in 1992 when people were paying 16 and 18 per cent interest on their mortgages and wondering if the roof of their houses would be over their heads six months later. Thankfully, when in Government, my party assisted in restoring a position where mortgages became affordable. It also, in the face of opposition from the Minister of State's party, restored the local authority housing programme which had been decimated by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in their last term in Government.

The strategic thinking which the Minister of State called for is to the fore in the report. I am sorry the Government's strategic plans for the greater Dublin area and eastern part of the country stop at the Kildare and Meath borders. My constituency suffers from some of the current trends. According to the map produced by the Government the problem stops at Monasterevin but that is not the case.

I am disappointed Senator Dardis tried to twist a positive comment by Senator Costello about co-operation between Dublin local authorities and religious institutions to find affordable land for social housing. I compliment the institutions participating in this scheme and wish them and the councils every success.

I will continue to oppose rezoning where it leads only to increased profits for builders and fails either to provide community facilities or to lead to lower house prices. If a rezoning proposal achieves either of the latter two aims my party colleagues and I will support it. This is the progressive thinking called for by Senator Callanan.

The Minister of State blamed councils for much of the problem. My local authority would have used the serviced building land initiative had it secured more than £60,000 from the £44 million made available in the last 18 months. If the Minister of State gives us more money I assure him it will be used well.

Mr. Ryan

Reality has impinged on the ideology driving this Government. Dr. Bacon was asked to look at the housing market and he told an Oireachtas committee that he was not asked to look at housing need. The pretence is that the market can meet the problem.

It is quite astonishing that a Minister of State can so profoundly misread a report that he confuses a recommendation made to the commission by an outside body with a recommendation of the commission. The paragraph at which he took offence is in the section of the report which summarises the submissions made to the commission. It is an honest summary. The Minister of State and the Government parties are so short of answers to an intelligent, creative, imaginative and radical response to the housing crisis that they resort to misrepresenting the report. That is the best they could do. There is no recommendation of confiscation, only a recommendation to the commission by an outside body that the question be examined of bringing housing back into public ownership if the occupier moves out. No one said how this would be done.

The Labour Party believes in free speech, free communication and free debate. We believe that when people make representations to us they are entitled to have those representations reported by us. That is what the commission did, because it also supports those principles. The Minister of State misunderstood and distorted the report and he should be ashamed of himself. Neither he nor Fianna Fáil read the report because it deals with reality whereas the Government deals in ideology.

The Government believes in the marketplace but that has not worked in the housing sector in any country. Neither Sweden nor Austria has housing speculation because the State has intervened. Those countries have different traditions. There is no market in building land in Vienna because the State deals with it. In Sweden, the social housing department determines market prices so that there can be no speculation.

We object to rezoning because we have no desire to make Fianna Fáil supporters richer than they are already. Rezoning in the present circum stances is wrong. We do not want to make people rich on the back of those who will end up living on the streets. That is not the solution to the housing crisis, except in the eyes of people who think they are not rich enough already.

Amendment put.

Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.

Gibbons, Jim.Keogh, Helen.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.Quill, Máirín.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Connor, John.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Gallagher, Pat.Henry, Mary.

Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Keogh; Níl, Senators Gallagher and Ryan.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, put and declared carried.

When is proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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