Today's Order of Business is Nos. 1, 1a on the supplementary Order Paper which will be circulated later, 2 and 22, motion 31. On No. 1, Second Stage shall resume and continue until 1 p.m.; there will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. On No. 1a, all Stages shall be taken today. On No. 2, that debate shall be taken in conjunction with Second Stage of No. 1a and shall be formally moved when the debate on No. 1a is concluded. No. 22, motion 31, shall be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business will resume thereafter, if not previously concluded.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreeable. Senator Coghlan asked the Leader of the House yesterday to outline the proposed business of the House for the coming weeks. That information would be of great help to all groups who have candidates standing for the elections in June and would allow them to plan their business.
I compliment the Government on its decision to hold an inquiry on child care over the past decades. It was the right decision and was taken speedily. I like to give praise when it is due. This issue is one about which very few people can have a clear conscience. We have to examine our consciences and ensure everything is done to prevent such things happening again.
As the terms of reference are to be framed by those holding the inquiry to ensure that no early decisions which might preclude proper and full discussion of all the matters are taken, it would be very helpful if we had a debate in the next few weeks to discuss what Members feel should be included in such terms of reference. I ask the Leader to give that matter serious consideration.
I would like to remind the Leader of an issue which I have raised with him on previous occasions. Will he report to this House on the Government's position on mandatory reporting? I agree with the points expressed by Senator Manning about the importance of the inquiry being established. It will be accepted by many people as being a positive step forward. I will not allow this House to forget that new aspects of child abuse are taking place in Ireland today. The programme for Government provides for the introduction of mandatory reporting. The Minister recently announced his intention to publish a white paper on this issue. I would like a clear reassurance from the Government that such a white paper will be about the introduction of mandatory reporting rather than whether we should be for or against it. Every time the Government has considered this over the past six or seven years, officials and professionals have talked it out of taking this line. We are talking about empowering and enabling children to seek help and ensuring the system can cope. We are not talking about passing on every little tittle-tattle of information. We need proper structures which will protect children who perhaps are being abused, persons against whom allegations are made and the professional groups involved such as teachers, medical people and social workers. The health boards should have the resources to deal with this in a uniform and acceptable way.
It is important the Government parties take an interest in this before the White Paper is published because I believe the White Paper will pull us back again, as it has done with the two previous Governments.
I agree entirely with the remarks already made by the two Senators. This is the issue of the day and it is important we get it right now and get a full package of proposals to deal with the outrageous abuse of children which has taken place under our eyes and the eyes of the State for decades.
The Government's current proposal seems a little short of the full package required. The establishment of a commission, an amendment to the Statute of Limitations and a national counselling service, all of which are directed towards the victims of the abuse, are extremely welcome. However there is clear prima facie evidence of wrongdoing and crimes committed and there is no mechanism being put in place to deal with this large-scale abuse and wrongdoing. Perpetrators have been brought before the courts in a very haphazard manner and with great difficulty. This must be dealt with so the large-scale wrongdoing is clearly dealt with on a collective basis.
We must get clarification from the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Children. We still cannot get the files from the Department of Education and Science for bona fide research into those times. There have been cover-ups and they must be brought to the fore, clarified and accounted for. We must also make it clear that any report of the commission will be published and that we will not again have a report deemed privileged, as happened with the Madonna House report. Major elements of it which gave clear indications of the wrongdoing taking place were not available to the public. We have only discovered them from the excellent programme "States of Fear" shown by RTE.
I agree fully with Senator O'Toole that now is the time to deal with the issue of mandatory reporting. It is time for us to grasp this issue. It is the only way forward. There have been many objections from various quarters regarding mandatory reporting. It is the only way to ensure our children are safe in the institutions in which they are put for their safety, education and care. We should have a full day major debate on this issue in this House. I ask the Leader to allow this to ensure we get a full package which covers all aspects of this huge and horrendous issue so that we can deal with it once and for all. We have neglected it for decades.
I join the leaders of the Opposition groups in welcoming the establishment of the commission by the Government and the acknowledgement that very serious wrongs were done to a large number of people. They deserve apologies as a minimum for those wrongs. We are dealing with one of the biggest scandals of Irish life which took place over a long time. It puts some present day investigations in context.
We owe a debt of gratitude to the makers of the programme "States of Fear" for the way in which they dealt with this matter. I saw the first two programmes but not the last one. They left a very deep impression and it shows that responsible public broadcasting can have a good effect.
On mandatory reporting, I agree it should be dealt with as a matter of urgency. We have discussed it when previous legislation was going through the House but it needs to brought forward urgently.
One can only stand in sympathy with the victims of the sexual abuse, violence and psychological abuse which took place. It is worth recording that there were many good people who came out of this with some credit. However the moral once again is all that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to stand idly by. We hope nothing like this can occur again. If we can learn that lesson from history, the commission and future work, we will learn a valuable lesson.
I join my colleagues in welcoming the establishment of this commission. It gives us an opportunity to stand back calmly and take stock. I did not see "States of Fear" last night. I had a longstanding commitment to talk in a secondary school about James Joyce. However, I was astonished by the 8 o'clock news broadcast. I have heard everything now that I have heard Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy being put in the witness box. The Irish people owe Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy a profound apology for dumping the problems of society on her lap. If anybody deserves a vote of thanks it is Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy. I have known her for many years and I would lay down my life that she is an honourable, decent good women who did things and took up subjects nobody else in the State was prepared to touch.
I worked with the gay community 20 years ago and I knew under-age boys were in prostitution on the Dublin quays but I could not deal with anybody under the age of 16 in a programme because I knew well what would happen. I would have been excoriated by the same journalists who are now looking for victims to pillory on the front pages. When it comes to attacking someone like Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy, it is time to call a halt before we get into a nasty, inquisitorial system in which we are looking for villains. We should be careful. When we get to really grilling someone like Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy, we ought to stand back and ask if we want an inquisition and must we have villains. I find it sickening that people who en masse stood back and did nothing are now looking for villains instead of trying to heal the problems of the victims.
On another programme, I heard an obviously concerned mother saying that there should be television cameras in every room, including bathrooms, lavatories and corridors, in every institution and that all church property should be sold at once to compensate the victims. We must avoid hysteria. We must look at the problem but we must maintain proportion and balance and look for healing.
I do not often sympathise with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but when I heard the obnoxious, rancorous tones of Mr. P. J. Stone yesterday saying he would deliver the mother of all battles if the Garda did not get what they wanted, I wondered if they were wisely represented. They have a stone, but they would be better off with a piece of bread. They would have better representation.
I ask the Leader of the House to arrange for the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to outline how the Government proposes to tackle the issue of working hours for junior doctors. It is unthinkable that junior doctors could deliver a quality service to their patients when they are required to work upwards of 68 hours per week. It is also unthinkable that they should be asked to work a week of that duration without doing long-term damage to their own health. There has been much emphasis here this morning – and quite rightly so – on child abuse. It is another form of abuse to expect junior doctors to work a week of that duration. The issue needs to be debated in the House and we need to be reassured that the Minister is taking every initiative open to him to rectify the matter.
Mr. Ryan
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to consider showing the same compassion to the 200 Kosavars who arrived in this country before the recent spectacular arrival of the refugees yesterday? These people, who are being ground through the Department's system, are by any logic entitled to immediate refugee status. I ask the Leader to raise this issue with the Minister as a matter of urgency, otherwise the matter will become a public relations farce. These people fled to this country from what is accepted as the most brutal regime in Europe and they should not have to suffer a further six or 12 months humiliation.
I agree with Senator Norris on the issue of child abuse. This is the fault of Irish society – politics, journalism and the church – and not just one particular religious order or institution. It is extraordinary that files are missing from Government Departments, which had nothing to do with the church, but because there was a willingness to protect. There was also a willingness on the part of many of us to accept a level of brutality. How many people of my age have said, "Yes, this was rough but it did not do us any harm." I believe it did us all harm and brutalised our attitudes to many issues. This matter should be properly dealt with.
Has the Leader received a reply from the Minister regarding the issue of discrimination by Ryanair against the handicapped? I propose raising this matter until a response is forthcoming. This policy is wrong and anti-competitive because it gives Ryanair a competitive advantage over their competitors.
I support Senator Quill on the issue of junior doctors. I am the spouse of a doctor and I was associated, as it were, with my future wife at a time when she was a junior doctor. I witnessed her attempting to practise medicine at a time when she was barely able to stand up because she was so exhausted. It is the medical profession which insists on these crazy hours. One of the fundamental problems is the myth that doctors need to work these hours in order to receive proper training. One particular branch of medicine said that if the working week was reduced to what the rest of us regard as a civilised level, the number of years training would have to be extended. I do not believe an engineer, which is my profession, would benefit from working 60 hours a week rather than 40 hours. Neither do I believe that doctors benefit from these long hours; this is insanity. It is time the rest of society told the medical profession and its leadership to cop on.
I wish to ask the Leader about two items of legislation. When is it expected to have Report Stage of the United Nations Convention on the Suppression of Torture Bill? This legislation seems to be stuck in limbo for a long time. I ask for a decent interval between Second Stage and Committee Stage of the Copyright and Related Rights Bill. This is complex and detailed legislation about which many Members have concerns.
I, too, welcome the commission which has been proposed by the Government to investigate sexual and physical abuse. Every right thinking person realises the terrible trauma these victims suffered. Like Senator Norris, I believe that the reference to Sister Stanislaus Kennedy underlines the necessity for the commission. At the moment we are leaving all the running to the media in regard to the investigation. Pat Kenny in his radio programme this morning put it very well when he used the word "fingered" in regard to Sister Stanislaus. She is good lady who has given all her life to helping people who would otherwise not have been helped. She has endeavoured to restore their dignity and sense of hope. The only way we can help the victims of this past abuse and ensure that this does not happen in the future is by endeavouring to be fair to everyone.
I welcome the apology from the Government and the decision to establish a commission to inquire into child abuse. I am less interested in apportioning blame and more interested in ensuring that the victims of such abuse receive the counselling and support they need. I am pleased this will now happen. We must look at what is taking place now and ensure that issues such as mandatory reporting are debated in this House and ensure that that policy is brought to fruition.
A stay safe programme is now available to schools and it is absolutely amazing that many schools do not wish to participate. I would remind those who object to such a programme of the consequences which, unfortunately, can be witnessed every day.
I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs my concerns about the situation in Jerusalem at present where the Israeli Government is trying to close down the PLO offices, particularly Orient House. This was part of the peace agreement. President Netanyahu, who is behind in the polls, is trying to close down the PLO offices in order that the elections will be disrupted and that as a result of the violence created he may win back the high ground he has lost to Mr. Barak in the run-up to the elections next Monday. I ask the Government to ensure that this office is not closed down.
I welcome the establishment of a commission to investigate child abuse and I hope it will ensure that what happened in the past will never happen again. I do not like to hear people's names being mentioned here because it might drag other names into the debate. I have been closely involved with what has happened, particularly in my parish in Kilkenny. I know many of the victims and I have been involved for many years in trying to have a commission established such as the one announced yesterday. Abuse is taking place not only in institutions but in homes and various other places throughout the State. This must be stopped because a generation of people have lost their young lives as a result of this abuse. A number of people are drop-outs because of what society did to them. I am pleased the Government has established a commission to look at this issue and I look forward to a calm and lengthy debate on the matter.
I agree with Senator Ryan regarding the hours worked by junior doctors. It is commonly accepted that after 50 or 60 hours working people get very stressed and make mistakes. This is not good for themselves or their patients.
I welcome the Government's response to the issue of child abuse. I would like to see the debate broadened to include secondary schools where a lot of physical abuse took place. I agree we must not hide anything but we must take a balanced approach to this.
I ask the Leader to allow a debate on abuse which is occurring at present. This has been raised by Senator Ridge on a number of occasions. When the young people in the Visitors' Gallery go in to buy sweets in many newsagents throughout the country they are confronted with hard core pornography of the worst kind. This demeans people and encourages abuse of women and children. I have seen this material on sale in the newsagents in the Stillorgan Shopping Centre. I will name these shops if they do not get rid of this material. Shops in Dún Laoghaire and Nassau Street sell filth. We must have a debate on this issue as soon as possible. Pornography encourages people to view human beings, women and children, as objects of abuse. It also encourages abuse in modern society.
I would like to refer to the lack of speech therapists throughout the country. Only 26 speech therapists are trained annually at Trinity College and in the past 12 months 24 have left the service. There is a lack of them in health boards and special schools. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science or the Minister for Health and Children to come to this House on this matter? Will he ask them to provide extra college places to train more speech therapists? Will he also ask them to give extra funding to health boards and special schools to help them provide the service?
Hear, hear.
I also ask the Leader to ask them to provide extra pay to those people who are carrying out the services in those facilities. Speech therapists are highly trained but paid badly and they are leaving the service for better jobs. I ask the Leader to provide time immediately to debate this issue.
The Education (Welfare) Bill will be debated in the near future. We have already had a couple of debates on education but we have had no debate on FÁS. At this stage I sound like a broken record because I keep asking for a debate on FÁS, which plays a big role in education. I am interested in a more global approach. At what point should we allow students to join FÁS courses? We must discuss how second level schools can gain access to FÁS courses and what type of courses would be suitable. I have heard of many young people dropping-out of school who adopt anti-social behaviour. We do not seem to be picking up some of these students. When we debated education we discussed education welfare, truancy and the new national qualifications body. We must make the debate more global and include FÁS in the equation. We must follow our debate on education with one on FÁS as soon as possible.
In response to Senator Manning, and as I told the deputy leader of the Opposition yesterday, Senator Coghlan, I hope to provide them with a schedule of forthcoming business tomorrow morning.
Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Dardis, Ó Murchú, Norris, Keogh, Lanigan and Lydon complimented the Government on welcoming the setting up of a commission. I would like to be associated with their comments. I join with the deputy leader of the Opposition and congratulate all those who were involved in putting together the television documentary series "States of Fear". The programmes highlighted child abuse and brought it to everyone's attention. Everyone concerned with creating the programmes and those who watched them have been horrified by the abuses detailed in the programme.
I agree with Senator O'Toole's comments about mandatory reporting. I will convey his views to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform after the Order of Business. I will make time available in this session for a debate on this issue so that the Minister can take note of any contributions Senators may make. I listened attentively to him talking on radio this morning. I must complement him, the Taoiseach and the Government for agreeing to set up a commission. I also agree with Senator Keogh in welcoming the apology made by the Taoiseach on behalf of the people of Ireland yesterday.
Senators Ryan, Lydon and Quinn raised the issue of junior doctors working 68 hours a week. I will contact the Minister for Health and Children and try to facilitate a debate at the earliest opportunity.
They work 100 hours per week.
Senator Ryan referred to the 200 Kosovars who arrived here prior to the arrival of their countrymen in Farranfore on Monday night. I will convey his comments to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I will seek an official response and I will contact the Senator.
With regard to his comment on Ryanair, I think it is more relevant to the Competition Authority rather than the Order of Business. He asked for more time to be made available to deal with Second Stage of the Copyright and Related Rights Bill, 1999. I will provide as much time as is required. The Bill consists of 355 sections and is one of the largest items of legislation to come before this House in the past 15 years. I have allocated one hour for spokespersons. Senator Ryan will have an opportunity to speak later on.
Mr. Ryan
I have spoken already.
I look forward to Senators availing of the opportunity to comment on the Bill. I will note their contributions.
Senator Lydon asked for a debate on hard-core pornography. Senator Ridge has raised this issue on the Order of Business on numerous occasions. We can debate this issue next Wednesday.
I will convey Senator Burke's request for more college places for speech therapists to the Minister for Education and Science. Senator Ormonde sought a debate on FÁS, its achievements and the contributions it has made to Ireland. It is a worthwhile organisation and I know many Senators would wish to contribute to a debate on it. I will facilitate a debate on FÁS during this session.
Order of Business agreed to.