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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jun 1999

Vol. 159 No. 20

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 3. On No. 1, all Stages are to be taken today with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other speakers ten minutes. No. 2, the earlier signature motion, shall be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1. No. 3, motion regarding membership of An Bord Pleanála, shall not be taken earlier than 2 p.m. with the contribution of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other speakers ten minutes. Senators may share time.

The Order of Business is agreeable. The publication of what is now known as the McDowell report on a single regulatory agency for the financial sector was referred to yesterday in the House. It is clear that this is a radical document, probably the most radical in the history of banking and regulation. It raises important issues. It is very important that at least one House of the Oireachtas has an opportunity to discuss the report with the Minister before the end of this session. I know next week is particularly busy but perhaps the Leader could ensure the appropriate Minister will come to the House the following week for a couple of hours to discuss collective Government thinking on this issue. Perhaps many issues remain to be teased out in that report. It would be wrong if neither House discussed this report, even in a preliminary manner, before we rise.

We had a debate in this House last week on Sierra Leone and there was support on all sides of the House that it be given favoured status as a Third World country. The UN Commissioner for Human Rights, Mrs. Mary Robinson, will visit that country tomorrow. A report published today by Human Rights Watch shows that violations of human rights in Sierra Leone are among the worst in the world, far worse than anything that has happened in Kosovo. I would like the initiative of granting of favoured status to Sierra Leone to be taken in this House. We can do a great deal in terms of aid and expertise if that was done. It is the view of all parties that favoured status be given to Sierra Leone and for that reason I do not want the matter to die. Perhaps the Leader will convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who could not be here on the last occasion, the strong views of all sides of the House on this matter.

The Leader indicated previously that he would support a debate in the House on industrial relations and social partnership in general. Partnership 2000 is at the concluding stage and people are looking to the future. There are clear indications that people would like an arrangement to be put in place. This, it seems, is driven by sentiment rather than by a real understanding of the issues. While the chances of a further partnership agreement are possible, it is not a probability at present. It is time for people to make their positions clear. A debate on the issue in this House, where people could offer their views to the Minister, would be of great benefit. There is a great deal of anxiety among the people who see large amounts of money being made but wonder how it is being spent. Any solution to a future partnership will focus on that issue. People need to be sure that the distribution of wealth is fair.

An excessive amount of revenue will accrue to the Government this year. It will have accrued up to £4 billion by the time Telecom Éireann shares have been sold. I cannot visualise what £4 billion might look like but when one divides it into large amounts of, say, £50 million one gets an idea of how great an amount it is. If we are to restore the faith of the community in public representation we should have clear views to offer on this matter before the Government takes decisions on it. Departments are discussing next year's budget and balancing their books in the context of the Estimates at the end of the year. We should have a view on that matter also. We should make our position quite clear so that the electors know where we stand on these issues. In that way, we can begin to put pressure on Departments and on the Government, without dividing the House.

Following the local elections, will local authorities have the political courage to sort out the taxi and hackney problem? It seems daft that hackneys cannot travel in bus lanes, even though I understand the matter has been cleared by the Minister. It is a matter for the local authorities which should deal with it immediately.

On the last point raised by Senator O'Toole, I would like to correct a misunderstanding. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government has not cleared the way for hackneys to use bus lanes. Dublin Corporation and the other three local authorities in the capital have made a joint submission to the Minister that bus routes should be made available not just for taxis but also for hackneys. The Minister has still not cleared that proposal, however. I would welcome it if we could get confirmation that he will accept the proposal. Very often bus lanes are relatively empty during the morning and evening rush hours, yet hackney cars are not allowed to use them.

In recent years there has been a huge rise in the number of suicides. So far this year, there has been a 15 per cent increase over the same period in 1998. Approximately 84 per cent of suicides are males who fall predominantly into the 15-24 age group. Suicide is the largest cause of male deaths in that age category. I raise the issue because this House introduced the legislation to decriminalise suicide, but unfortunately we have not followed up on that step with any measures or initiatives to deal with depression or stress that affect young people. There are huge levels of stress at this time of year, when youngsters are sitting their junior and leaving certificate examinations.

There is no connection.

It is an appropriate opportunity to raise with the Minister for Health and Children the steps which might be taken to deal with this serious problem. The Leader of the House should invite the Minister to attend the House to discuss the matter.

I support what Senator Manning said about the report on the regulation of financial institutions, which was leaked recently and published yesterday. The report was produced, under the chairmanship of a former Member of the Lower House, for the previous coalition Government. We should discuss the report which deals with areas of serious concern – the regulation of the financial sector, the role of the Central Bank, and whether an independent regulator should be appointed to deal with these matters. I understand that opinions on the issue are divided among the Government partners. It would be most appropriate if we could have an early debate on the matter.

I support Senator Manning's remarks on Sierra Leone. In an era of savage atrocities around the world, Sierra Leone has witnessed some of the worst. Last week, the House discussed the issue of favoured country status and it is high time we now took the initiative. The Leader should raise this matter with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and report back to us on it.

I agree it would be useful if we were to debate the general budgetary situation, as Senator O'Toole has suggested, and consider how moneys raised through the disposal of State assets, such as Telecom Éireann, and moneys accruing from the current budget surplus will be spent. Moneys that accrue from the sale of State assets should be used for capital spending on infrastructure and the budget surplus should be used for current spending. That is a straightforward point of view and one that I would expect the Government to support, but I would be interested to hear what the Minister for Finance has to say to the House about it.

I welcome the announcement that an Irish force may go to Kosovo to help in the peace process there. The intention is that approximately 100 soldiers will provide transport and logistics support. Given our record with the United Nations in dealing with conflicts throughout the world, we will be able to make a valuable and positive contribution, bearing in mind that such involvement would be on foot of a UN resolution. In the event that we are requested to send troops to Kosovo, we should introduce the necessary legislation at the earliest possible opportunity. We did so previously with regard to our involvement with the UN forces in Somalia. That concerned peace enforcement which is a more meaningful intervention than peacekeeping. I hope the matter can be dealt with speedily so that we will be able to contribute fully to the KFOR force in Kosovo.

I strongly support the call by Senator Manning, and that of Senator Ross yesterday, for a debate on the report of the implementation advisory group for a single regulatory authority for financial services. It is a landmark document, but that does not mean it is flawless. It would help us greatly if we were afforded an opportunity to hear and question both the Minister for Finance and the governor of the Central Bank. Such a debate should be arranged at an early opportunity.

The millennium issue has been raised on a number of occasions by various speakers and I support the calls for such a debate. However, I am raising the issue particularly in the context of recent media reports regarding the establishment of a rather questionable outlet in O'Connell Street, Dublin. I understood that street was to have a major facelift as part of the millennium celebrations, but I find it hard to understand how the proposed establishment would fit in with such plans. I know it will provide great fun and many anecdotes, but it is generally accepted that where such establishments operate the environs quickly develop into sleazy areas. Interestingly, in 1979, when a large number of people sought planning permission to erect a memorial to the 1916 leaders in O'Connell Street, because of the significance of the GPO, that was refused. I hope that when the House discusses the millennium project, it will have an opportunity for a comprehensive discussion focusing on what we understand to be the plans that I have already mentioned.

Will the Leader confirm that the Minister for Health and Children is satisfied that the introduction next Thursday, 1 July, of the drug payments scheme is legitimate and constitutional? My understanding is that the scheme is dependent on the Health (Community Pharmacy Contracture) Regulations. Under those regulations there is a requirement that if the Minister is to have the power to introduce the scheme an amendment will be required to the Health Act, 1970, and to some other Acts. If both Houses of the Oireachtas are to rise next week, regulations will be introduced which may not be fully legitimate. We should seize the opportunity to ensure that such measures are legitimate. I have raised the question because concerns have been expressed to me about it.

I also wish to add to the bus lanes issue which Senator O'Toole raised. A suggestion was made yesterday by Senator Jackman that any cars containing four people should be allowed to use bus lanes. That regulation would be much easier to enforce than just allowing hackneys to use the bus lanes. It would ensure that, at least, the bus lanes would be used rather than the authorities having to examine discs.

I have already sought a debate on Partnership for Peace. Senator Dardis has suggested today the possibility that Irish troops will go to Kosovo in a peace enforcement role, as against a peacekeeping role. If that needs legislation we must support Senator Dardis and ensure those regulations are in place rather than find ourselves in a position of being unable to contribute such troops for constitutional reasons.

I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business: "That item 25, Registration of Lobbyists Bill, 1999, be included." I seek leave from the House to have that Bill printed and circulated.

I support that amendment. In supporting what Senator Manning said on the single regulator issue, although those words are offputting for most people, it is an extremely important one and we should take the opportunity to debate it. I gather from informal soundings – I have not talked to the Governor of the Central Bank – that the Governor would be more than willing to come in to talk to this House about the very issue we are discussing here. It would be a great pity if anybody in this House would oppose that. We are only talking about a debate and about information and about using this facility which we have given to ourselves. I am a bit suspicious of the idea because it was mine originally and it now seems to have reached consensus. I do not normally find myself in that position but I will go along with it as far as I can.

I support what Senator O'Toole had to say about the need to debate the extraordinary situation in which we find ourselves of having too much money in the Exchequer. There is a great danger of politicians seeing all this loot and asking how they will spend it. There is still the matter of the national debt. If we spend all this money now the national debt will still be there when this is all over. Whereas everybody would like to spend it all on infrastructure in their own area and we would like to have a debate which might result in every Senator spending the Exchequer surplus in local areas, we have to insist that an element of sanity remains and remember that this money will not be there forever.

Mr. Ryan

I am not sure if Senator Ross seconded Senator Gallagher's amendment. In case it is required I formally second Senator Gallagher's amendment. I am keen to support my colleagues to have a debate on the issue of regulation because up to about two years ago when scandal after scandal exploded we were told the market was the best and most efficient regulator of all. Even Senator Ross has now recognised the fact that very often the market is a disastrous regulator and does not work. On the matter of the national debt, that is a trivial issue now and one which should be low in our list of priorities.

Hear, hear.

Mr. Ryan

It is an insignificant figure in terms of the country's capacity. If the country had been foolish enough to listen to the advice of many people, including Senator Ross, we would not be in this state. It is because we behaved unorthodoxically for the past ten years that we have been so successful. I hope we will continue to be unorthodox.

I strongly support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on the surplus and how best it should be utilised. While I agree with Senator Ross on the matter of reducing the national debt, despite 100 years of local government there are still many social and infrastructural problems, especially in the west and in rural areas. Given that the preparation of the Estimates will be starting shortly, we need to have our say before the end of the recess.

Two points stood out in the recent elections – the result in Connacht-Ulster and the dramatic changes in the make-up of local government. That there is surplus money is the reason so many people are crying out. In the west there are major problems that have not been redressed. Yesterday we heard the IDA has a strategy, after all those years, where it will look towards the west and rural area. It will be a meaningful debate and will give us an opportunity to express to the Minister for Finance the views of the people we represent.

We should be very careful before we become involved in the debate on the sex shop in O'Connell Street. This is one of the best advertising campaigns I have ever seen. It is on every radio show. If we start talking about it as well, it will be to the advantage of those who are trying to set up such institutions. We should leave it to the planning officials and the other retailers in O'Connell Street to sort out that matter.

I agree with the comments made by Senator Manning and others in relation to the status of aid to Sierra Leone. I agree it is in need of services of every kind. It is potentiallly one of the richest countries in Africa as are many of the other areas which have problems. I do not agree with people who say the worst atrocities in the world have been carried out in Sierra Leone. Any atrocity is an atrocity. There is no such thing as a bad atrocity, a good atrocity or the worst atrocity. Atrocities have taken place there and continue to take place. We should consider how we can support the people of Sierra Leone in a more meaningful manner than at present.

I criticised RTE recently in its changeover from coverage of racing and of gardening to cover one of the most corrupt sports in the world, if it is a sport, formula 1 racing, which is totally controlled by one person, Bernie Ecclestone. RTE has gone out of its way to support it. I mentioned gardening earlier in terms of what RTE has done. Anybody who has read the newspapers this morning will note that the gardening show being held at Cork racecourse in Mallow – where a maximum of 100,000 people are expected over a three-day period – attracted some 56,000 yesterday. This is an indication of the number of people who are interested in gardening as a hobby. In the year of the elderly we should be dealing with matters such as that because many of the elderly get involved in gardening as a hobby.

Regarding traffic in Dublin, those who use the roads along the canals to come to Dublin in the morning will be aware there is plenty of space for three lanes of traffic. If we had two lanes for traffic coming towards the city in the morning and one going out, and the reverse of that in the evening, it would halve the travelling time between here and Newlands Cross.

Senator Gallagher has moved an amendment to the Order of Business. I have no objection to Senator Gallagher having the Bill printed and I am happy to have it included in the Order of Business this morning.

Senators Manning, Costello and Ross called for the House to debate and discuss what is known as the McDowell report and the whole future of financial institutions and having regulations put in place since we have become members of the EU financial set-up. I have no problem in providing time for this debate. I will discuss with the Leaders, after the Order of Business this morning, how we can fit it into what will be two hectic weeks ahead, given that so much legislation has to be discussed. I am prepared to propose that time be left aside for this debate. It is a pressing matter. I agree with Senator Manning that at least one of the Houses of the Oireachtas should have an opportunity to debate it.

Senators Manning, Costello, O'Toole and Lanigan expressed serious concern regarding Sierra Leone and the various abuses taking place there, in view of the visit by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson. I will certainly pass on the Senators' views to the Minister.

Senators Dardis, Ross and Bonner expressed various views on the House having a debate on the budgetary proposals which will be before the Government and the various Departments in the coming months. This is a good idea. This debate will take place at the earliest opportunity in the next session.

The deputy Leader, Senator Dardis, made suggestions regarding the allocation of capital expenditure. I hope these points can be considered in a debate which I hope will take place in the second week of the new session.

Senators O'Toole, Dardis and Manning requested a debate on industrial relations. I have already assured the House that such a debate will be held. Senators Costello, Quinn and Lanigan asked the Minister responsible to respond to the request by local authorities, especially Dublin Corporation, that hackneys be allowed use bus lanes. I will contact the Minster's office after the Order of Business.

Senator Costello requested the attendance of the relevant Minister to debate the issue of suicide. Deputy Neville made this his priority when he was a Member of this House and he received support from all Members. I will have time left aside for such a debate. Senators Dardis and Quinn welcomed the announcement that an Irish peacekeeping force may go to Kosovo. I wish to be associated with this and if legislation is necessary we will not hold up its passage through this House.

Senator Ó Murchú expressed concern about an establishment proposed for O'Connell Street. I welcome the announcement this morning by Dublin Corporation that the person in charge of the millennium project for the street is totally opposed to this development and has said he will do everything in his power to prevent it. I understand there is legislation to deal with this proposal.

I will pass on Senator Quinn's views to the Minister for Health and Children. I welcome the return of Senator Avril Doyle and congratulate her on her magnificent achievement. I paid tribute to her last week. Senators are proud of her achievement. We wish her well and know we have a very worthy representative in the European Parliament.

Question "That the amendment to the Order of Business be agreed to" put and declared carried.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.
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