The Order of Business is Nos. 2 and 15, motion 2: Committee Stage of No. 2, Containment of Nuclear Weapons Bill, 2000; item 15, motion No. 21 to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business shall resume thereafter if not previously concluded.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business I will begin by expressing my very sincere compliments to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and to all of those who were involved in the talks and discussions which led to what appears to be a very significant breakthrough in the peace process. The amount of commitment, the work done and the extent of the progress made has come as a welcome surprise to most people who felt that the talks were bogged down and were going nowhere. We have had many false starts in the past in relation to a lasting settlement in Northern Ireland and perhaps it might be a little premature, but I do not think so, the progress made was very significant and very solid. We should put on record our appreciation of what has been achieved. Perhaps at some stage in the near future – this week is probably too early – it would be worthwhile if the Leader could arrange to have a debate on Northern Ireland to hear at first hand exactly what has been achieved.
I wish to refer to the Fine Gael Private Members' motion this evening which concerns the laws of libel and defamation. In the context of the scandals we see around us at present, it is important to address our laws on libel and defamation to see if they are a hindrance, as some people say, to a fully open public life. It is an issue we need to discuss in some detail. I ask the Leader if, instead of the normal Private Members' format, he would agree to take this as an ordinary motion with, say, 15 to 20 minutes for each speaker and not to conclude it this evening – there will be no vote on it – but to leave it on the Order Paper because I suspect there are a number of people who would like to contribute in a measured way on this topic rather than the normal eight minutes contribution.
Will the Leader indicate, not today but perhaps tomorrow, the main legislation he intends to take this session?
I agree with the points made by Senator Manning regarding the developments in the North. The response from people in the North has been an uninhibited welcome. It is a bit like the difference between night and day in the few months when there was political representation and political Government there. It made a huge difference and anybody who had experienced that wanted it back. It is the way forward and is a most significant step. In the area of education in the North, the area I know best, this is a most welcome move and will be welcomed by colleagues of mine on all sides of the political spectrum. They look forward to working with the newly constituted Executive again and I look forward to that.
The dogs in the street are talking about what is going on in Dublin Castle. We are in a situation where we cannot deal with the matters being discussed at the tribunal. It is fair to say there is more than a little rotten in our State and that we have all been tainted. In the body politic there is a stench from it and we all have a difficulty. It is no longer any good to say that only some people are involved and that it is not everybody. We have to be seen to respond. I am not talking about the individual issues, they will be dealt with in the process. I am not discussing individual issues but the deteriorating reputation of public representatives which bodes ill for democracy. We as a House should address that.
I put it to the Leader that we should have an open debate on this issue, not on the issues being discussed in Dublin Castle, not on one item or other, not on one disclosure or other, but on how we as a House of the Oireachtas will deal with these issues. We do not want a defensive debate. We have to be seen to tidy up our own act, to clean up our own House. I have said many times previously it is no use taking external people into politics to try to clean it up. If it is to be cleaned up it must be done by ourselves. That is best done before there are names on the table. I speak on behalf of all politicians everywhere. We need to address this issue before parties get into a defensive or collegial mood. Let us look at the issues. How will we deal with this when it blows completely? We need to be seen to take control of it now. I will speak to the Leader after the Order of Business but I ask him to make time available very soon for a discussion to allow people to put forward their views on what should be done about these issues.
Issues relating to the tribunal, which are not being discussed there, require the intervention of the Criminal Assets Bureau. People other than politicians profited from crime and their cases should also be examined.
I agree with the remarks of Senator Manning and Senator O'Toole in relation to Northern Ireland. The progress made at this late hour is wonderful given that many of us thought it was most unlikely within the timescale of the Good Friday Agreement up to 22 May. It appears that, at last, a formula has been found that will put arms beyond use and provide a satisfactory inspection process. We compliment the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and also the British Prime Minister on their good work. We hope that a suitable response will be forthcoming from the official Unionists on 20 or 21 May. Immediately after that would be an appropriate opportunity for the House to debate the matter. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate soon after 22 May.
Regarding the second item raised by Senator O'Toole, I wish to refer to No. 15, motion 18, in relation to a register of lobbyists. I ask the Leader to respond to that item because we have sought a debate on the issue. I do not accept Senator O'Toole's point that all politicians are being tarred with the same brush. We cannot all be lumped together. Certain parties have not been identified.
I allowed some latitude to Senator O'Toole to make general comments on this matter but it is difficult to divorce the general from the specific. The specific matters come within the ambit of the tribunal and there has been a long-standing ruling that we do not impinge on the work of the tribunal.
I felt that some of Senator O'Toole's comments reflected unfairly on us. Certain parties in the House must get their acts together and put their houses in order. It is not the responsibility of the House as a unit to do it. We have our act together and our house in order and we would like everybody else to do likewise. I previously sought a debate on No. 15, motion 18, and I ask the Leader to indicate when he will facilitate us in that regard. We are now aware of the amount of harm done by uncontrolled and unregulated lobbyists. The House deserves an opportunity to debate the matter.
The House should join in the general congratulations to the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, the British Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Mandelson, and all the parties in Northern Ireland for the progress that was made so rapidly and decisively in recent weeks. I hope that when the Assembly and the Executive are restored, the normal democratic institutions and procedures, to which we are used, will be operational in Northern Ireland. I hope peace will prevail and that guns will be permanently taken out of politics on this island.
The other issue is important and I recognise the strictures on Members with regard to dealing with the particular matters which are being discussed in Dublin Castle at the tribunal. However, I have a certain sympathy for Senator O'Toole's view that there are general issues arising from tribunals and the exercise of public life which could be usefully considered. The House could undertake a useful debate with regard to how the funding of political parties and lobbyists should be regulated. This would not impinge on the tribunal, although I understand the Cathaoirleach's point of view that it could be difficult because people might particularise and that would be inappropriate.
The vast majority of Members entered public life in the belief that we could do some public good and not because of a wish to enrich ourselves or secure personal gain. That still holds true. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge there are serious and grave matters arising from the tribunal. These issues should be discussed at some stage in the near future.
I have asked the Leader over a number of months for a debate on radon gas, which is more important today than it was some time ago. He indicated that he recognises the danger inherent in this gas and the fact that the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland published a document on the national survey of the areas with a high level of this dangerous gas. In view of the fact that new EU regulations on natural radiation in the workplace, with particular reference to radon gas, are now in the Government's hands, it is time for this debate so the issue can be clarified once and for all.
The Competition and Mergers Review Group published its report last Thursday and one of its recommendations is that the groceries order should be repealed. I ask the Leader for an urgent debate on this matter because Members of this House should have an input into whatever decisions are made. I have raised this matter twice in the past.
The Minister for Health and Children is involved in ongoing talks with the non-consultant hospital doctors about deferring their strike. In view of the fact that some of the employing authorities are reported not to have paid them the most recent increase to which they are entitled and have not implemented the nurses' agreement, I ask the Leader to request the Minister to come into the House to explain how he proposes to deal with the health services when junior doctors and possibly nurses are not gainfully employed. The Minister is not being helped by many of the employing authorities.
For as long as I can remember the Irish version for Knock in County Mayo was Cnoc Mhuire. I am now told that the word Mhuire will be officially dropped from the title and it will be known as An Cnoc. This is either abbreviation or secularisation going too far. Over 98% of the local people have voted to retain the old title and their wishes should be respected. I ask the Leader to raise this matter with the Taoiseach to ensure this travesty is not implemented because it does not do us credit.
I agree with Senator Ó Murchú. If 98% of the people in a district want to call it one thing, surely the elementary courtesy of allowing them to name the area in which they live should prevail. I would have no difficulty with that.
When does the Leader envisage asking the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House for a wide-ranging debate on a number of issues of concern to people? We nearly had race riots sparked in Parnell Street and we had another gangland slaying in Summerhill. Such incidents are increasing. I remember when we heard about zero tolerance. There seems to be zero tolerance for refugees but a lot of freeway is given to criminal elements in the city. Perhaps the Minister could, in the context of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, where we have given in to a powerful lobby of vested interests, outline what the judges are doing in awarding licences year after year to pubs where there are riots and customers get shot and what the Garda are doing in not objecting to the granting of such licences.
I ask the Leader to outline when we can have a brief debate on Tibet. He indicated he would give time to this matter and I would appreciate it if this could happen. More than 100 French parliamentarians have already signed two resolutions, so they are not quite as controversial as people might imagine.
I agree with the positive welcome given to the developments in Northern Ireland. I have been a critic of republican elements over the years but the IRA seems to have moved a long way.
I support Senator Manning's comments about the libel laws. I take a slightly different view on the newspapers. They appear to have been pusillanimous in taking on wealthy vested interests, yet they are content to abuse their power and their reporting of events when they are dealing with an individual who does not have the money—
Senator Norris will have an opportunity to make those points in the debate later.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for his encouragement. I will do so and with much greater force. I hope my remarks will be reported in some of the newspapers I intend to criticise.
I join with other speakers in commending the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, for their efforts over the past number of weeks. There has not been as much publicity, which has probably benefited all the people of Northern Ireland. I also welcome the statement last weekend. The people of Northern Ireland have had many ups and downs, especially in the past few years. There is definitely quiet optimism north and south of the Border and I hope the Unionists will have the courage to move forward.
I also support my colleague, Senator Cregan, in his call for a debate on the groceries order and for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come into the House to discuss its repeal.
Will the Leader organise a debate on an urgent matter of the drugs problem and request the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come here and listen to what we have to say? There was a time when drugs were a problem in our cities but now they are problem in towns and villages throughout the country. I saw at first hand the devastation of a family in Bansha, County Tipperary, in the past few days and of people in the village and the surrounding area. Our sympathy goes out to that family. We need to address the problem. We have heard often enough about the zero tolerance of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is time he got to grips with this serious problem.
I wish to be associated with the tribute paid to the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the progress made over the weekend. I pay a special tribute to the extremely hard work of Irish and British Government officials in having moved matters to this point. As one who has been critical over the years of the republican movement, especially of the IRA, for its failure to declare its intentions, we should recognise the significance of the statement and the courage required to make it. It has transformed the situation. However, we are not yet out of the woods. The air of welcome in the North is not as universal as has been suggested. There are still things to do but I hope the Unionists now show the same courage as Sinn Féin.
I declare an interest as a director of Independent News and Media in supporting Senator Manning's call for a wide and measured debate on the question not only of the libel laws but also of the balancing rights of privacy and the right of people to redress when they feel they have been done down by newspapers.
I also welcome the recent advances and events in the North and congratulate everyone concerned with bringing them about. No doubt it was very time consuming but much worthwhile labour went into it. There is no doubt that it is the soundest basis yet laid and I hope it will hold, grow and prosper. I support Senator Manning and my other colleagues in their views on it.
I also support Senator O'Toole who is right and wise in his comments regarding some of the issues surrounding other recent events. It is true to say that, from recent comments in the House, the Seanad is united in how the State should proceed regarding lobbyists and other related matters. In that regard I support the views expressed.
I am also concerned by the discrimination provided for in the Intoxicating Liquor Bill regarding small shops and the sale of beer; I hope we can get around it. I concur with Senator Cregan and others regarding the groceries order. That is a unanimous view in the House.
No. It is not unanimous.
I am sorry. I appreciate that.
These are points that can be made in the debate that has been sought. There is near unanimity. I want to draw the House's attention to motion No. 10, item 15, which states that Seanad Éireann supports the retention of the groceries order because of the stability it has generated since its introduction in 1987 in providing a fair trading environment for all practitioners in the grocery trade, in having consistently delivered on low prices, quality stores, consumer choice and in ensuring that food inflation has been lower than general inflation and indeed lower than the UK or the average EU inflation rate. That motion is dear to the Chair's heart, dear to the Leader's heart and there is near unanimity on the matter. The House could usefully pass this motion.
Read it again.
Senator Finneran spoke very well on this subject also.
Senator Coghlan should not abuse the latitude I have given him.
The Chair is a fine decent man and I would never dare to do so.
I join with other Senators in congratulating the Government on its work in Northern Ireland. I commend the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach for their perseverance and ability to overcome setbacks in having new proposals adopted by the British Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland parties to set up the Executive. This is a great opportunity and I hope the supposed new obstacle of changes in the RUC will not be used to the detriment of setting up these structures.
Will the Leader provide time for a debate on the euro? I have spoken on this matter several times as Government spokesman on finance in the Seanad, but it is now appropriate, considering the turmoil it has endured since its launch, that the Seanad has a full debate on the euro and how it has fared with its sister currencies – sterling, the dollar and the yen – as we want to establish its stability. We should have the view of the Department of Finance and those of Senators also.
I support Senator Cregan's call regarding the groceries order. Senator Coghlan made a long speech on this matter. I raised this issue on the Adjournment some months ago and I hold the same views today that I did then. The almost unanimous view of the House is that there should not be a change in the groceries order.
I am not going to call for a debate on the groceries order, though I would be happy to have one. I interrupted Senator Coghlan to make sure he was clear that there is not unanimity on the matter. I would welcome a debate on the issue.
I was impressed by the raft of legislation that is to be published in the next few months. I ask the Leader to draw the attention of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the huge damage alleged to have taken place in the Philippines last week as a result of cyber-terrorism, when 45 million computers were put out of action at a cost of $10 billion. A spokesman in the Philippines said that the crimes were too modern for their archaic laws. We have not even taken our first steps to protecting ourselves and I urge the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to give priority to that action, whatever other legislation is brought forward in the next few months. Let us ensure that we are not singled out, along with the Philippines and so many other countries that have not taken the first steps to protect themselves from cyber terrorism.
Mr. Ryan
Has the Leader any hint of news from the Government about the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill? It has only been a year or more since it was published. I want to give him notice that if he does not bring forward the Bill, my party will move a motion that it be taken—
Which party is that?
Mr. Ryan
—and I will have the pleasure of seeing the Government refuse to take its own Bill. Its inconsistency at least would be consistent after what it did to the Shannon River Council Bill. I am informing the Leader now, through the Cathaoirleach, that I, on behalf of my party, will propose that the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill be taken at some future date because it is important legislation from which the Government is running away.
I wish we could have a debate on the issues, in terms of politics, that are being debated everywhere else so that I could say I am very happy to be in a party that is not involved in any of this activity, that has not been accused of any of it, that took a position of principle throughout all these scandalous events and that will continue to take a position of principle on it.
We cannot have that debate now, Senator.
Mr. Ryan
I regret I will not be able to make those comments. Nevertheless, I thank you for your indulgence. You have always been most indulgent to me.
(Interruptions).
Mr. Ryan
We did not get paid to vote either way, which is something of which we are very proud. We voted the way we believed was correct and we did not expect anybody to pay us beforehand or afterwards because of how we voted, and I am very proud of that position. I deeply resent the fact that other people's actions have been used to besmirch the reputation of people like myself and many other people in politics but I do not accept that it is a problem with the body politic. It is a problem for individuals and the sooner they learn the difference between right and wrong, the better for all of us.
On the issue that Senator Quinn raised quite legitimately, I am sceptical about the figures quoted in relation to these matters. We had a wonderful marketing exercise by the whole software industry leading up to the Y2K bug which turned out to be largely a marketing exercise to sell a lot of computers and new software. I sometimes wonder who is behind some of these software scares. We need further reflection on the whole area of electronic commerce because all we have had so far is facilitating legislation. I would like to have a serious debate on all this area because both the scale of the opportunities and the threats, and indeed the significance of the whole area, is probably grossly overrated. It is doing a wonderful job making many people rich but at no great benefit to society.
I wish to make an appeal to the Leader in relation to the business ordered for tomorrow, the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. That Bill is comprehensive legislation but many of the people interested in it, like those representing the vintners' interests, the people promoting abstinence and those who are concerned about under age drinking, are dissatisfied with the Bill. I understand a proposal will be made in the Dáil that the Bill be sent to the Oireachtas joint committee for further submission from various interested parties.
Hear, hear. So it should be.
In the light of that taking place, I ask that this Bill be taken off the agenda for tomorrow and that we return to it at a later stage because, after an examination by the joint committee, we will all be in a better informed position to deal with it. We will have a better idea as to more appropriate amendments etc. I appeal to the Leader to reorder the business for tomorrow.
I understand from remarks made by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the media this morning and from what I read in the media over the weekend that an amendment will be made to the Immigration Act. A new immigration Bill will be brought before this House and the other House very soon. I do not see the need for that and it is a great pity because the Immigration Bill which we passed in this House a few months ago was quite controversial if it were only to be measured by the level of anger it generated in the Minister and in the contributions made on all sides of this House. If this Bill is being brought forward as a result of fairly outrageous remarks made by a certain Member of the other House, the Minister might have certain constituency difficulties in that regard.
The Senator is engaging in speculation.
It is a bit more than that.
He spoke about a hypothetical situation. I call the Leader of the House to reply to the Order of Business.
Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Dardis, Leonard, Maurice Hayes, Coghlan and Finneran welcomed the events in Northern Ireland during the past week. As Leader of the House, I join Senators in welcoming the progress that has been made. I congratulate the Taoiseach, the British Prime Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Secretary of State, all party leaders and everyone that made this possible. I call on the Unionist community to display the courage that is necessary and which the majority of people would support. Everyone wants lasting peace and the guns silenced forever. I welcome the announcement by the IRA that it is not one step forward but three steps forward.
I was in another European country when that announcement was made and it got great coverage every half hour on the main news bulletins in that country over two days. It was major European news.
What was the country?
How far away was the Leader?
I was in Portugal. The announcement was welcomed by our European colleagues. We look forward to the day this matter will be brought to finality and we can move forward to re-establish the Executive, restore the Assembly and make progress as an island from the point of view of commerce, tourism and everything else that is positive. It is the most positive event to happen this year and I welcome it wholeheartedly.
Senator Manning asked me to reconsider the allocation of time for tonight's Fine Gael Private Members' motion on laws of libel and defamation. I have no problem allowing all Senators 15 minutes to make their contributions until the end of Private Members' time at 8 p.m. and the matter can be taken in Government time some time later on.
Will the Leader of the House clarify if that will be later tonight or later during the progress of the Seanad?
Is the amplification system not working on the far side of the House?
I seek amplification of the idea.
It will be for another day. Did the Deputy hear that?
Does he require a translation of it?
I did. I thank the Leader so much for his courtesy.
Not at all.
Let us hear the Leader of the House without interruption.
I thank the Chair. Many Senators expressed concern about what is happening in Dublin Castle. As the Chair correctly pointed out, there are matters we cannot discuss here. The Deputy Leader of the House, Senator Dardis, and other Senators said we could have a useful debate on the funding of political parties. I will discuss that with the party Leaders and the Whips after the Order of Business today to ascertain how we can facilitate such a debate.
Senator Coogan called for a debate on radon gas and I can agree to allow time for such a debate during the next few weeks. Senators John Cregan, Leonard, Coghlan, Finneran and Henry called for further clarification and a debate on the announcement regarding the groceries order. I have no problem in allowing time for such a debate.
I can pass on Senator Henry's views to the Minister. I understand various discussions are taking place regarding a possible strike by the junior doctors. When I have further details on that, I can review the Senator's request in that light, perhaps on Friday's Order of Business.
Senator Ó Murchú and Norris called on the Minister to take note of the views of 98% of the residents concerned with regard to Cnoc Mhuire. I can pass on their requests to the Minister.
Senator Norris expressed serious concern regarding events, particularly in Parnell Street, over recent nights and the horror experienced in that area of Dublin, just off O'Connell Street. I share the views that were expressed. The Garda Síochána and all concerned have a duty to implement the Act and deal with the matter for once and for all. These people represent nobody in this country – 99.9% of the population was horrified by what happened. I support Senator Norris and I look forward to a speedy conclusion with regard to what happened there. I will be speaking to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about it this evening.
Senator Norris also called for a debate on Tibet. I have already agreed to this. Senator Tom Hayes sought a debate on drugs. I will allocate time for that debate. Senator Finneran called for a debate on the euro. It would be timely to have such a debate and I will allocate time for it. Senator Quinn referred to the events in the past week as a result of a computer virus which allegedly emanated from the Philippines. It is a very serious matter, particularly given how damaging it was, leading to computers being closed down in parliaments and in many industries. It is an alarming development and I have noted the Senator's comments.
I told Senator Ryan on the last day of the last session what the Minister said. The Minister's views have not changed with regard to the Telecommunications Bill. When there is a change, I will be glad to inform the House.
Mr. Ryan
It should be taken off the Order Paper.
Senator Connor asked about the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. That is for the Order of Business tomorrow morning.
As was announced in the Dáil and the Seanad, it was the Government's intention to publish 19 Bills last session. Fourteen of them were pub lished. The Government has published two more Bills, which brings the total to 16. A total of 20 Bills are due to come before the Seanad in this session. They are listed on an Order Paper which I will circulate to all Members after the Order of Business.
Order of Business agreed to.