Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Mar 2001

Vol. 165 No. 11

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

Before I call for approval of the Order of Business, I want to inform the House of emergency legislation from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development coming before the House tomorrow at 2 p.m. The Bill, entitled the Diseases of Animals (Amendment) Bill, 2001, provides for the amendment of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1966. Key elements in the Bill include the provision of powers to authorised officers and the creation of new powers to regulate dealers. Penalties are also increased substantially in the Bill. The issue of illegal tampering with, switching or removing of ear tags will also be addressed. I will put this before the House on the Order of Business tomorrow morning.

The list was circulated last week but this emergency legislation has been agreed by Government this morning and it will be initiated in the Seanad tomorrow. It will be taken in the Dáil on Thursday. The Seanad will sit late – possibly into the early hours of Friday morning – to approve an early signature motion.

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re referral to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations, 2001, to be taken without debate; and No. 2, statements on the Inspector of Mental Hospitals Report, 1999, the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 30 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed 20 minutes.

I gave my word last week to Senator Norris regarding a proposal which he put before me. With his approval and that of the House, I propose to take this late on Thursday evening.

Mr. Manning

Will the Leader tease out for us exactly what he has in mind? I assure him, of course, that we will co-operate in every way with the emergency legislation. It is a pity that a great deal of it was not on the Statute Book already but if it takes an emergency to get it there, so be it. Is the Leader saying that he proposes to take the business in this House tomorrow? Why, then, is he telling us that we will sit late on Thursday evening?

An Cathaoirleach

The early signature motion cannot be taken until the matter has been passed by the other House.

Mr. Manning

That explains it. On No. 1 on today's Order of Business, the motion, as outlined on the Order Paper, is quite confusing and I do not understand from it if the Seanad will have an opportunity, after this has been before the committee, to debate the items therein. Perhaps it would be helpful on a matter like that, which is full of dense legal language, if there could be an explanatory memorandum telling us whether these important items will come back to the House to be debated or whether, when we pass the motion without debate today, that is the end of the matter as far as this House is concerned.

I am slightly concerned about what the Leader said about the motion on Iraq. It is not my motion but it was my clear understanding that the Leader did indicate specifically last week that it would be taken today. Perhaps he can clarify that.

Mr. O'Toole

I understand and I appreciate, like everybody else, the importance of the emergency legislation but I must say it brings out the cynic in me. It reminds me of the wandering horses Bill of the previous Administration and the dog muzzling Bill of the Administration before that. This looks like becoming the ear tags Bill. It just shows the way we rush in to try and sort things out, and that there is no anticipation or planning. These are issues which should have been addressed previously. The current legislation is strong enough were it to have been implemented, but it was not. Obviously there will be total support for the idea of doing it, but it is a bit like running ahead of the posse.

Ten years ago this was the first of the Houses of the Oireachtas to discuss the issue of AIDS. Senator Norris raised it and began an important debate in society. There is an issue developing in South Africa where the international community has a responsibility. Drugs companies, which have the worst reputation of all companies, are deciding to take action against the South African Government, whose only crime is to make medicine available to people who are dying. I would like the Government take a stand on that. I would like the appropriate Minister, probably the Minister for Foreign Affairs, to come into this House and indicate the Government's position on this issue because the international community will be required to take action.

Mr. Costello

I welcome, in principle, the announcement by the Leader of the House that legislation will be introduced. I have some reservations about emergency legislation because, of its nature, it tends to be rushed through the House. It gives very little opportunity to tease out all the implications and decide whether they are in the best long-term interests.

Obviously there is an emergency to be dealt with and the best way to deal with it is to ensure that all the procedures being put in place are operating and something is done about the 20,000 people who still have not cancelled their booking for Cheltenham. Some 70,000 people will come to the Point for Westlife concerts after St. Patrick's Day. Will something be done about that? We must consult Commissioner Byrne who is involved in Europe-wide talks to create a common European response to this matter. That should be the priority.

I ask the Leader of the House if we can have a fresh look at this legislation with a view to making sure that what we are doing takes into account the EU response. That has been the thrust of all we have said here over recent days. With free movement within the Union we need a broader response rather than a simple national legislative one. Though I welcome the legislation in principle, I am concerned that it will be rushed through.

I agree with Senator Manning's call for an explanatory memorandum to be circulated when items of business come back to this House having been referred to committees. Then we could address whether there needs to be debate or discussion.

Finally, I ask for a debate on education. We have not had one for quite a while. Yesterday the first broadside was launched against the examinations. The secondary teachers did not attend training courses in relation to oral and practical examinations. The oral exams, which begin on 26 March, will almost certainly have to be cancelled and now we are on the slippery slope towards the junior and leaving certificates. We should have a full scale debate as we are moving into a crisis.

Mr. Dardis

We are faced with an exceptional situation in dealing with the threat of foot and mouth disease. Last week, in the course of statements on this matter, I asked the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Davern, if he was satisfied that all the statutory powers were available to the Minister to ensure that the disease did not get into the country and he assured me that that was the case. However, some of the penalties belong to a different time. It is obvious that they need to be upgraded in terms of deficiencies in relation to sheep being imported and tags being removed. The necessary penalties should be imposed in those circumstances. People who have behaved illegally cannot expect to be compensated if animals have to be destroyed.

For those reasons it is essential that the legislation go through quickly. We try not to take all Stages of a Bill on the one day but, in these circumstances, I think everybody would agree that the Bill should go through speedily, go to the other House and to the President for early signature. I believe we will give it the scrutiny it requires. I agree with the point made that there can, on occasion, be gaps or some unforeseen error in emergency legislation. However, I think the House will give it the scrutiny to ensure that does not happen and I am sure the Minister will rectify it if we point out that there are deficiencies in that respect.

It is important to say that, irrespective of what legislation is in place, there is a responsibility on individuals to ensure they behave correctly. Last Saturday afternoon I had to confront a person on the Curragh because sheep had not been removed, although it had been ordered. He gave me a rigmarole about the Department of Defence and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development as to why he should not move his sheep. He may have been technically correct, but in the spirit of the times and given the responsibilities to the country, he might have taken a different approach to the matter.

In regard to No. 1, motion re the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, I am a member of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, as is Senator Finneran and some other Members of the House. These issues have been given very detailed scrutiny by the committee in the past and I expect the same will happen in this case. The Minister for Finance comes to the committee and deals with the various aspects of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997. The House can be satisfied that it will receive the scrutiny it requires at committee level, and that is not to preclude any debate that might take place here later in regard to the findings of the committee.

Mrs. Jackman

It is a couple of weeks since we debated the Ombudsman's report on nursing home subventions. I was stunned to read in the Sunday Tribune of a suggestion that the Minister for Finance and other Ministers may be pressing ahead with very controversial ways of taxing the estates of people who have died if they have received nursing home subventions. I am alarmed that information was not forthcoming to us when we debated the Ombudsman's report on nursing home subventions, which gave a stinging rebuke to the Minister for Health and Children. I ask that the appropriate Minister, whether the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, or the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, to come into the House and tell us exactly what they intend to do in regard to the funding of nursing home subventions and whether the State alone should be the appropriate authority in relation to that funding.

Mr. Lanigan

I join Senator O'Toole in mentioning the problem of AIDS and what is happening in South Africa in regard to international companies which control the supply of drugs all over the world. People will say we have a big drug industry in Ireland and that we should not say anything that would inhibit its growth. However, they are trying to stop the country with one of the highest levels of AIDS in the world from buying generic drugs which could help to stop the spread of AIDS or maintain the limited state of health of people there. What the multinationals are trying to do is a disgrace.

This is not only happening in South Africa. The situation in the Third World generally in regard to the spread of AIDS is unbelievable and the multinational companies are now trying to block the supply of generic drugs to help control it. It means that Africa and the entire Third World is enslaved to these multinational companies at a time when there are 27 million slaves in the world who are associated with businesses. We must discuss people buying Nike or Adidas shoes and Gant, Boss or Hilfiger clothes which are made in Third World countries by these poor slaves. It is about time the matter was addressed here.

There will be a limited debate on the National Roads Authority tonight. We got the report of the National Roads Authority today and perhaps the Leader will arrange a general debate on this matter, apart from the specific debate on tonight's Adjournment.

I did not see the legislation which will be taken tomorrow, but we should fight to ensure that the people who are riding roughshod over everybody here and in world food markets are liable to retrospective penalties.

An Cathaoirleach

You can do that tomorrow when the legislation is being debated.

Mr. D. Cregan

Senator Mary Jackman made a very good point. I ask the Leader why the Irish Examiner yesterday reported that a letter came from the Minister for Finance to the Minister for Health and Children objecting to moneys being paid back and stating that there should be a tax on the estates of elderly people. That is very serious when three weeks ago we allowed only two people on each side of the House to discuss nursing home subventions. Now we read with concern that last summer there were discussions and letters, now disclosed to the public, that had not come before either House. That should have been discussed on the night we had the debate. We should have more time to debate questions like this and particularly taxes on the estates of elderly people, who are now saying that when they die the State wants to take money from their estates. The Minister wrote a letter to this effect. I find this very disturbing and we should have further debate on it.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

I welcome the emergency legislation on animal diseases and the urgency with which it has been attended to. The general public has been praised for the positive manner in which it has responded to the Government's leadership in this matter. I am very perturbed at the suggestion that major concerts planned for Dublin might still go ahead. These will attract thousands of people from all over Ireland. We have all seen the outrageous recklessness in Britain and this would not be acceptable here. I call on the organisers to reconsider this matter.

Mr. Norris

I am very disappointed that we will not have the debate on Iraq, which I understood we were to have. Last week I put down a motion and I proposed an amendment to the Order of Business on this issue. I withdrew that and did not call a vote on it, on a very clear understanding that there would be a debate and a date was given. We clearly have time today. There are simply two items, one without discussion and then the statements on the Inspector of Mental Hospitals Report and nothing else. I wonder if it is not possible to get a Minister and to schedule this for later on this evening. It is important that we take this matter and particularly that the Leader lives up to the undertakings that he gives the House in an unequivocal fashion. That is why I shall wait to hear what the Leader of the House has to say. Then perhaps we can see where we take it from there.

Like my colleagues, I am also disturbed about the reports in the newspapers about moves on the nursing home issue, which was discussed extensively here in the last couple of weeks. It seems that this comes from the Department of Finance rather than the Department of Health and Children. It is a pity that the wide-ranging discussions that were held in this House, which all seemed to go along a particular direction, appear to have been ignored. It may be that the various Ministers were not acquainted with them. Perhaps we should send a copy of that debate particularly to the Minister, Deputy McCreevy.

Ms Ormonde

I ask that, to allow the talks to be completed, no debate on the teachers' conditions of employment take place in the short term. We are at a very sensitive stage. I would welcome a debate on that and the issue of teachers' terms and conditions should be thrashed out at length. I would be the first to support the idea.

We should also have a debate on the nursing home subvention once again, in the light of the information that has come out in the papers and in my view a difference of opinion between the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Finance. The Government is looking at all the options and the paper was not necessarily right in what it said. A paper will not refuse ink. Let us have another debate. I have no difficulty with that.

Mr. D. Cregan

Here I have a copy of the letter.

Mr. McDonagh

Speaking as a parent rather than as a teacher or politician I disagree with Senator Ormonde. The time has come to have a debate in the House on education given the fear regarding this year's junior and leaving certificate examinations. The Minister should outline the position on the proposed legislation dealing with vocational education committees. Will it be introduced or shelved? It would be appropriate to have a debate on education at this time.

Mr. Kett

Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government if he will consider introducing legislation to give local authorities greater control, particularly in Dublin, over road openings? Following the privatisation of Telecom there are as many as 70 operators with equal rights. There might only have been three previously. There is a need for a structured approach to road openings. Beaumont Road is a case in point. It has been opened on 43 occasions in the last 12 months. There is a need for legislation to deal with the matter.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Leader of the House arrange for the Minister for Public Enterprise to come to the House to reassure the nation that we will be guaranteed electricity by the ESB? This is not a criticism of the ESB, but there were a number of power failures in recent weeks due to bad weather. Recently a number of industries in California decided to move operations to other states because of the inability of the power company to meet their needs. We sometimes get it right here. It was announced yesterday that the British intend to model their new criminal assets bureau legislation on ours. It is good to know that we do set standards and give a lead.

Ms Keogh

I contributed to the debate on nursing home subventions and I am of the view that there was a sin of omission in the failure to inform us of the developments highlighted in the newspapers. There is a need to debate the issue again in the light of this new information. I regret that we will be unable to debate the issue of under age drinking tomorrow and would like to receive a commitment from the Leader of the House that we will have another opportunity to do so. Will he arrange for copies of the emergency legislation to be taken tomorrow to be supplied to us by this evening at the latest?

Dr. Henry

I strongly agree with Senators Lanigan and O'Toole on the supply of essential drugs to developing countries. Will the Leader of the House suggest to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that we should insist on the implementation of the TRIPs Agreement, a trade related intellectual property agreement which we and many other countries have signed and in respect of which some major pharmaceutical companies are acting as if they are more powerful than sovereign states? Developing countries should be in a position to overcome the patents of these companies and produce drugs at a cheaper rate. It is extremely important that we support them.

Mr. Coghlan

I share the views of the leader of the Progressive Democrats in the House, as reported in the media today, on the need for a Minister for Food. We are all aware of the importance of food safety, a matter that should take precedence in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. That has not always been the case in the past. Thanks to your latitude on the Order of Business, a Chathaoirligh, this important issue has been discussed in the House over the past week. I ask the Leader to give the Government's view, if any, on this.

Mr. Dardis

The Senator will get it tomorrow.

Mr. Glennon

I join with Senator Quinn in calling for a visit to the House from the Minister for Public Enterprise in relation to the difficulties encountered in the provision of power supply over the past couple of weeks. I ask that the debate be expanded to include difficulties currently being encountered in the provision of appropriate telecommunications services in certain parts of the country. I refer particularly to north county Dublin where there is at the moment a waiting list in excess of six months for the provision of ISDN lines. The area is the most rapidly developing commercial area in the country and to have artificial restrictions placed on business development by these inordinate delays is grossly unfair and inhibiting of the development of the local economy. I agree with Senator Quinn that a debate on the development of public utilities to keep pace with developments in the economy generally would be very timely.

Mr. Cassidy

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Dardis, Ó Murchú and others expressed their views regarding the emergency legislation. This legislation will be taken in the House from 2 p.m. until 6 p.m. tomorrow and will resume at 8 p.m. If a break is needed between Second Stage and Committee Stage or before any other Stage, there will be no difficulty in allowing or agreeing time. I thank Members of the House for their support in bringing the legislation before the House tomorrow.

Senator Keogh asked about the debate on teenage drinking. This debate will take place on Wednesday, 21 March 2001.

Senators Manning, O'Toole and Costello asked that an explanatory memorandum be supplied for the motion on the Freedom of Information Act. I will endeavour to have an explanatory memorandum supplied and I will speak to the leaders after the Order of Business.

Senator Norris asked for a debate on Iraq. It will not be possible to have the debate tonight because there are many speakers this afternoon. I propose that spokespersons be allowed 30 minutes each this afternoon and all other Senators be allowed 20 minutes each. I propose to have the debate on Iraq on Thursday evening.

Senators O'Toole, Lanigan and Henry asked for a debate on AIDS and the supply of essential drugs to developing countries. Time will be available after the St. Patrick's Day recess for that matter.

Senators Costello, Ormonde and McDonagh asked for a debate on the teaching profession. I will make arrangements to have that debate.

Senators Jackman, Keogh, Dino Cregan, Norris and Ormonde requested a debate on nursing home subventions. The Social Welfare Bill will be debated in the House on Thursday and the Minister will be present then to hear the Senators' views. I am sure we all welcome the increase—

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Cassidy

—from 1 April 2001 of £120 to £150 for the maximum subvention for senior citizens who have served their country so well.

Senator Lanigan asked for a debate on the National Roads Authority. We have reviewed that matter every year since 1997 and we will do so again. I will inform the Minister for the Environment and Local Government of Senator Ó Murchú's strong views on the cancellation of concerts. Senator Kett called on the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to give local authorities greater powers to deal with the problem of road openings. This is a good suggestion which I will pass on to the Minister.

Senators Quinn and Glennon called on the Minister for Public Enterprise to come to the House for a debate on the ESB supply network. Senator Glennon also expressed concern about the long delays in sourcing and connecting ISDN lines in north County Dublin and elsewhere. I will provide time for a debate on these matters also.

I will pass on Senator Quinn's congratulations to the Government and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in particular on the good suggestion that the Criminal Assets Bureau be used as a model for current British legislation.

Mr. Manning

On a point of order, it would be more appropriate to pass on congratulations to Deputy Owen who introduced the Bill which provided for the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau. Being a generous man, the Leader would not—

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order. The Senator should allow the Leader of the House to continue without interruption.

Mr. Manning

And Deputy Quinn.

Mr. Cassidy

I was about to include Deputy Owen in the congratulations. Senator Henry called for a debate on intellectual property. As Members will be aware, in the Copyright and Related Rights Act we have the most up-to-date legislation on such matters. The views expressed by Senator Coghlan may be considered in Private Members' time tomorrow.

Mr. Manning

Senator Keogh asked the Leader of the House to ensure copies of the legislation to be taken tomorrow are available at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. Cassidy

I understand a copy of the Bill will be placed in the pigeonhole of each Senator at 4 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Order of Business agreed to?

Mr. Norris

No.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Tá

Bohan, Eddie.

Callanan, Peter.

Cassidy, Donie.

Chambers, Frank.

Dardis, John.

Farrell, Willie.

Finneran, Michael.

Fitzgerald, Tom.

Gibbons, Jim.

Glennon, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.

Kett, Tony.

Lanigan, Mick.

Leonard, Ann.

Lydon, Don.

Mooney, Paschal.

Moylan, Pat.

O'Brien, Francis.

O'Donovan, Denis.

Ó Fearghail, Seán.

Ó Murchú, Labhrás.

Ormonde, Ann.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.

Coghlan, Paul.

Cosgrave, Liam T.

Costello, Joe.

Cregan, Denis (Dino).

Doyle, Joe.

Henry, Mary.

Jackman, Mary.

Keogh, Helen.

McDonagh, Jarlath.

Manning, Maurice.

Norris, David.

O'Dowd, Fergus.

O'Toole, Joe.

Quinn, Feargal.

Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Norris and Ross.

Question declared carried.