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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2001

Vol. 165 No. 12

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Trustee Savings Banks (Amendment) Bill, 2000, Second Stage, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes; No. 2, Diseases of Animals (Amendment) Bill, 2001 – all Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes and on which Senators may share time; No. 18, motion No. 27, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and No. 2, if not previously concluded, to be resumed thereafter. Business will be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

As I said yesterday, my party will co-operate fully in trying to get this emergency legislation enacted. When the Government asks that the normal procedures be short-circuited, there is an expectation that it will co-operate also. I attach no blame whatsoever to the Leader in what I have to say but we were assured yesterday that the Bill would be in our pigeonholes at 4 p.m. It arrived at 10 a.m. today and did not include an explanatory memorandum. A briefing was arranged with officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development with our spokesperson and other spokespersons on agriculture from this House, but the officials did not turn up this morning. Our spokesperson was left hanging around waiting and that meeting has not yet taken place.

We all know emergency legislation is very dangerous legislation and that on more than one occasion it has ended up before the courts because it was rushed through and sufficient care and attention was not given to it. The Opposition has been treated very badly by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development by the discourtesy shown in the briefing not taking place this morning and the late availability of the Bill. In my experience on the other side of the floor, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development has consistently treated this House in the worst way possible.

Hear, hear.

It has regarded this House as simply a place where Bills should be rubber-stamped at the convenience of the Department. Of all Departments, it has consistently been the most cavalier in its treatment of this House. That behaviour has continued in relation to this Bill. I register the strongest possible protest at the way in which this has been done. That does not mean we will not co-operate. If the Leader wants to make extra time available, the Progressive Democrats could postpone its Private Members' motion tonight and we will not claim our time next week. Our space next week could be made available to the Progressive Democrats if more time is needed this evening. I again register my protest at the way in which this matter has been handled.

I understand the Bill will be taken at 2 p.m. It is important to spend the remaining time debating it. I strongly support what Senator Manning has said, that if the Progressive Democrats were prepared to yield its time, it would give us an opportunity for a really serious discussion on this Bill. It is a critical moment in the life of the country economically and socially as well as agriculturally and Senators should have the opportunity to discuss it fully. There was a very important, wide-ranging and clear debate on foot and mouth disease a week ago but there was no coverage of it. That is a pity but at least it was indicated on the airwaves today that this Bill would be taken in the Seanad first. We should treat the material here with the greatest possible seriousness.

On a point of order, I made a mistake when I spoke earlier. I said there was no explanatory memorandum with the Bill when, in fact, there was. I would like to put the record straight on that.

I agree with everything that has been said in relation to the introduction of this legislation. We were promised that the Bill would be in our pigeonholes by 4 p.m. yesterday. It has still not arrived in my pigeonhole and I do not think it is good enough that we have to go to the stationery office to get a Bill. I had thought that because of the urgency of the situation we were to take all Stages today. We should not have to take the Trustee Savings Banks (Amendment) Bill until 2 p.m. as there is no rush on it.

It is bad form to make an announcement that there is a need to take the legislation in question as a matter of urgency and then not give us an opportunity to study it. We will not have an opportunity to be briefed on the legislation prior to its introduction. This is extremely unsatisfactory. It would be better if the Leader of the House waited until tomorrow. We can deal with the legislation when it arrives but it should not be finalised today. The debate should continue until tomorrow to give us an opportunity to reflect on it. There is a tendency to get some elements of emergency legislation wrong. Given that the debate is not due to start until this afternoon, it should continue on Thursday to give us time to reflect on the legislation overnight and to come up with amendments for Committee and Report Stages.

The Leader of the Opposition has made a suggestion regarding Private Members' time which I am reluctant to sacrifice because the motion is topical. We are all anxious to facilitate the legislation and ensure it is passed as quickly as possible, but taking Committee and remaining Stages tomorrow morning would not help because it would mean that the Dáil might not be able to deal with the Bill and result in it coming back to us. If Senator Manning is agreeable and if, as the case may be, many Members wish to speak at 6 p.m., we can review progress at 5 p.m and perhaps make way to allow others to speak on the Bill.

There was a leak to one of the Sunday newspapers on the strategic management initiative in the Garda Síochána. It appears that a report prepared by Deloitte & Touche for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will suggest that at least 100 rural Garda stations should close. Any station with four members or less will be earmarked for closure. That will be the criterion. That would be crazy. Some of the most serious and vicious crimes in the last ten or 12 years have been perpetrated in rural areas. There have been attacks on elderly people and all kinds of robberies. Everybody agrees that the answer is more gardaí in rural areas. I take it that the leak was an inspired one and that the report is imminent. When it becomes available, the Leader of the House should allow time for a debate.

I congratulate the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Walsh, and the Minister for State at that Department, Deputy Davern, on their excellent work in keeping the country free from foot and mouth disease. I received a complaint from a constituent about hill walkers who tried to pass through a sheep farm in a mountain area. The person concerned had to call the Garda to stop them. Something similar happened in County Wicklow. The people concerned are intelligent, educated and upright. It is sad that they would treat a serious problem in such a flippant manner. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on tourism and hill walking in particular. While people wish to comply, there must be rules and regulations which the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation should in place to enable the matter to be controlled properly.

I agree in the strongest possible terms with Senator Manning on the publication of the Diseases of Animals (Amendment) Bill. Sadly, there are some cowboys out there. We, therefore, agree with the general outline issued publicly by the Minister. This House, however, is being treated as a rubber stamp and that is disgraceful. We should be afforded a proper opportunity to scrutinise the Bill in some detail.

Mr. Ryan

I support the suggestion that there is no real need to deal with the Trustee Savings Banks (Amendment) Bill. It is legislation that could have done with a lot more reflection. It is unique legislation which involves the expropriation of a bank by the State in order to sell it to make money for the State. It is, therefore, particularly peculiar legislation. There is a basic constitutional issue involved here which Departments seem to forget. The Oireachtas does not exist to be helpful to Departments. Departments are part of Government and, therefore, accountable to the Oireachtas. This legislation was capable of being disseminated with great hooh-ha to all the media yesterday but was not available to Members of the Oireachtas until 10 a.m. today. That is not a printing problem or anything of the sort. It is a problem of priorities in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Its priority was to get it to the media and not to those they regard as rubber stamps. There is a constitutional issue here, the Department is subordinate to the Oireachtas, and I ask the Cathaoirleach to raise this issue with the Department.

I share the concerns of Senators. Senator Ryan suggested we need not deal with the Trustee Savings Bank, but that is not the issue. Even if we could take the Bill in five minutes' time the issue is that the spokes persons will not be briefed. This Bill deals not only with foot and mouth issues but with the eradication and dealings of other diseases. It will have to stand the test of time and I cannot understand why it is being rushed through in this manner.

The Leader promised some time ago that we could debate autism and appropriate education for children suffering from autism. Can this debate be brought forward as quickly as possible?

Will the Leader consider a debate on the recently published National Roads Authority road development programme? It would give those of us concerned with the continuing east-west divide and the infrastructural deficiencies west of the Shannon the opportunity to raise issues pertinent to the report. The publication this morning in the papers of toll road legislation for the Kinnegad to Mullingar end of the N4, which will be brought up to motorway standard, is in stark contrast to the NRA's continuing refusal to upgrade the N4 from Mullingar to Sligo and so open that area of access to the west. The most recent report in that context confirmed that there is a deficiency in funding at infrastructural level leading to continuing economic disparities. Will the Leader give us the opportunity to question the priorities of the NRA in the context of road development over the next ten years?

I welcome the Disease of Animals (Amendment) Bill. While it is being taken at short notice the present situation requires specific legislation and I welcome the opportunity to discuss it today.

Will the Leader invite the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to the House to discuss the notice circulated in the press regarding taking the power to deal with waste management from local authorities? It is a diminution of power and, as councillors, we have responsibilities to those at county level. The demise of democracy because of our failure to do our duty would be a shame.

I support Senator Jackman in relation to a debate on autism. This whole area is inadequately funded. I support Senator Mooney's request for a debate on the National Roads Authority report. Will the Leader arrange for that debate soon? Whatever about the N4 route, no funding is provided for the next number of years for the N5 national primary route.

I support Senator Mooney's call for a debate on the NRA report. The NRA does not seem to be listening to the views of local authority members, indeed the unanimous views of local authorities. A case in point is the Vee of the Downs, where local people have been campaigning for a grade separated junction. This is a T-junction and it is a death-trap. I do not wish to pre-empt a debate but the point must be made.

Many Senators have expressed their concerns about the emergency legislation which is being initiated in the House today. I agree with Senator Manning in his concern about the unavailability of copies of the Bill. I will inform the Secretaries General of the various Departments about our concerns and ask that copies of legislation be available to Members of this House at the same time as to Members of the Dáil. I am grateful for the full co-operation of the Opposition and the Government sides of the House in relation to the Bill. I assure the House that all the necessary time for a wide-ranging debate will be available.

Senator Costello said that he was not personally briefed about the Bill. The Labour Party amendments are in the Clerk's office. However, I accept that the Bill was only delivered to Members just before 10 o'clock this morning.

Senator Dardis, the Deputy Leader, has asked for clarification of the Private Members' motion put down by the Progressive Democrats for tonight. In the event that the time is forfeited, I propose to devote time instead on Wednesday, 21 March.

Senator Connor expressed concern about a Sunday newspaper article dealing with Garda stations. The Department has dismissed this article as pure speculation. I come from a neighbouring rural constituency and I fully agree with the Senator's sentiments. I have no difficulty in having a debate on this issue.

Senator Burke called for a debate on the Objective One area and whether we are getting our fair share of the cake. We need a wide-ranging debate and it could be included in an all-day debate on funding for local authorities and on the National Roads Authority report as requested by Senators Mooney, Burke and Glynn.

Senator Farrell asked for a debate on tourism and hill walking, and I will arrange time for that. Senator Chambers asked that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government be present at a debate on the issue of local authorities and waste management. I will arrange time for that.

Order of Business agreed to.
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