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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Apr 2001

Vol. 166 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations, 2001, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Committee and Remaining Stages; No. 3, Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 2001 – all Stages.

The Order of Business is agreed. With the Cathaoirleach's permission, I pay tribute to the late Godfrey Timmins who was a Member of the Dáil, with one short break, from 1968 to 1997. The family tradition is carried on by his son, Billy, who is a Deputy for Wicklow. Everyone was saddened by last night's news that he collapsed and died.

The first words that sprang to everyone's lips were that Godfrey was a gentleman. If ever that word had a meaning, it was embodied in him. He was courteous, quiet spoken, good humoured and considerate. He was close to his Wicklow people and served them in the real sense of that word, reflecting their views on the issues of the day in the other House.

He was also a man who had great judgment. Every Fine Gael leader, from 1968 on, always listened to Godfrey's advice and sought it on important occasions. He did not make long speeches but gave advice briefly and to the point. Many young politicians, new to the Dáil, might have paid little attention to him initially but, as they got to know him, they realised how good his judgment was and how decent he was. He always gave them good advice. He had many wonderful qualities. Those of us who knew him or served with him in the other House and on committees know how strong and good these qualities were. On behalf of Fine Gael, I extend sympathy to his wife and family, especially his son, Billy, who follows in his footsteps in the Dáil.

On the Order of Business, will the Leader tell us what are the proposals for the constitutional debates which we must have before the referenda can be held? I raised a question yesterday about the "Prime Time" television programme, which I withdrew at the Cathaoirleach's proper request. Since then, the issue was raised in the other House. It was riveting television, but it is not possible to cover a complex issue in a one hour documentary.

We are at a stage in the life of the State where the arms trial can be viewed as an important historic event, not as an item on the current agenda to be used to score points in political debate. We should only seek the truth. It would be in the public interest if the Government established a committee of two or three independent historians with access to all the documents to get the truth about what happened. Will the Leader raise this with the Government?

Does the first item, the Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations, 2001, concern the U2 concert in Slane? Is that why the regulations are being changed? It is a matter of public interest whether it should be debated. I seek clarification because I am not entirely sure that is the issue.

Yesterday I requested the Leader of the House to ask the appropriate Minister, probably the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to outline the Government's view of the "Prime Time" programme concerning the arms trial. I agree with the request made by Senator Manning and share the view that this is not a matter for political debate. There is a significant issue in terms of trust and confidence in the Executive, legislation and decision making in the State. The Government should take appropriate action. I would like to hear its view before there is a row about the matter. I do not see why there should be division on the issue.

Constitutionally, we are required to pass legislation at least 30 days prior to referenda being held. The Government is thinking about holding referenda on 31 May which seems to leave an impossibly tight schedule in terms of current arrangements. When will the debate on the legislation take place in the House? In particular, I want to know when it will be concluded in order that we can have some idea when the referenda will take place.

I agree with the Order of Business. I seek clarification in relation to the planning and development regulations which license outdoor events. Are the proposals related to holding a second U2 concert in Slane and what are the implications of the regulations for planning and development?

I also express condolences to the family of the late Godfrey Timmins on my own behalf and that of the Labour Party.

During the Easter recess the Leader of the House will be planning debates for the new session. I ask him to consider two matters in particular, the first of which is the extent to which inflation and increased construction costs are affecting proposals in the national development plan. This morning I received news of a major cutback in a local scheme in my local area due to inflation and increased construction costs. I must conclude that this is happening throughout the country. We should receive an update on the matter from the relevant Department as it will effect every community. Second, I ask the Leader of the House to arrange an early debate on poverty. The ESRI has reported that we are making progress in eliminating poverty, but we still have some distance to go. As Members of the Seanad, we could have a very useful and constructive debate on the matter, particularly considering our local knowledge and the impact of Government schemes on the ground.

I wish to be associated with the tributes paid to the late Godfrey Timmins whom I knew reasonably well. He definitely was a very effective and able advocate for the people he represented so well over such a long period. He was educated in Naas, County Kildare. There has always been an association between east Kildare and west Wicklow because of the mountains. One of his significant achievements was that he held a seat in a difficult area for Fine Gael. I think it was the only Fine Gael seat west of the hills in Wicklow for a long time. As Senator Manning said, he was a very modest, unassuming and humorous gentleman. In many respects, he was underestimated. I extend our sympathy to his wife, Nora, his son, Billy, and other members of his family.

Regarding the "Prime Time" programme and the circumstances surrounding the arms trial, I agree with Senator O'Toole that this is not a matter for political debate. There may be some merit in adopting the approach suggested by Senator Manning, namely, allowing professional historians examine the material. This is, however, a matter we can discuss on another day.

I wish to be associated with the tributes paid to the late Godfrey Timmins. It is very difficult to pay tribute to him in this House as he would hate to hear us paying eulogies to him. I remember very well, as his running mate for Wicklow, that the one thing he could not be persuaded to do was to take prominent positions or push himself forward. He loathed the idea of celebrations honouring his 25 years here or 50 years there and would do anything to wriggle out of such occasions. He was a rare breed in Irish politics in that he was not involved or interested in self-promotion. In addition, he was rare in that he did not rush to judgment. I remember when a Member of the Oireachtas got into a spot of bother, as we all do on various occasions, and was being hounded by the press asking Godfrey what he thought. He responded by saying, "He was always very nice to me, and I do not make judgments on people other than on how they treat me". Godfrey Timmins always treated everybody as a gentleman would, with courtesy and respect for their point of view. He was not a quota squatter, which is so rare in the Houses. He was extraordinary in that way. He was almost unique in that he wanted to bring a running mate in with him for a second Fine Gael seat in the same constituency, which he genuinely tried to do. He would ring one saying that they should go to this, that and the other event in the constituency and that he would not attend. He was a most rare, decent and honourable man. I will miss him and those who knew him will miss him as he was a human being rather than a politician.

I agree with what has been said about the late Godfrey Timmins. I knew him longer and better than anybody else in the House. I was at the convention which selected him in Rathdrum in 1968 and knew him both as a member of Fine Gael and Member of the other House. He was first elected to Wicklow County Council in 1950 and gave 49 distinguished years of service. I extend my sympathy to his wife, Nora, and his son, Billy, our colleague. He was a loyal supporter of the party and great supporter of my father. Other than politics and his family, his other two great loves were Gaelic games and racing. It is appropriate that he passed away last evening in Dunlavin at a Gaelic match.

I call for a debate on planning, particularly An Bord Pleanála. Senators Lanigan and Ormonde and I have called for such a debate previously. I see another example of where a local authority made a decision, which was agreed to by the chief planning officer of An Bord Pleanála, following which An Bord Pleanála made a directly opposite decision. It is time An Bord Pleanála was taken from behind the high walls to a place of openness and transparency. Planning applications should be heard before a court where people can see what is happening. Planners on local authorities are qualified, some with masters degrees, yet the board throws their views out the door. There is something radically wrong with the system and it needs to be overhauled.

I wish to be associated with the warm words of tribute from Senators Manning, Dardis, Ross and Cosgrave to the late Godfrey Timmins. There is no doubt but that Godfrey deserved them all. I extend my sympathies to his wife and son, Billy, our colleague in the other House.

I agree with Senator Manning's suggestion about the "Prime Time" programme on the arms trial. The banks and Revenue Commissioners should not penalise the many companies and small businesses which are suffering as a result of foot and mouth disease.

Will the Senator please bear with me? It would have been much more appropriate to make these suggestions in the debate held yesterday on the foot and mouth issue which ended prematurely because of a lack of speakers.

I must confess that I missed that debate. It is the last day of term and I do not wish to impose on the Chair, but it would take a Government directive or guideline to convert tax liabilities to low interest rate loans over a reasonable period. The Government might also be able to arrange a rates relief scheme in conjunction with local authorities.

I am disappointed that we have reached the last day of term without any definitive word from the Government in regard to the reopening of many of the top tourist attractions throughout the country, not least in my constituency of Kerry South, in particular, Muckross House. I am aware that the Leader of the House is as concerned as I am about our herd of native red deer—

The Senator's point could have been more appropriately made yesterday afternoon.

You have been a bold boy, Coghlan. Thanks to a certain man, a ballad was composed which included the famous words "arise and follow" and we have managed to preserve and protect the gene pool of our native red deer species. Senator Fitzgerald is smiling because he had a good hand in it. If anything was to go wrong on the mainland in Killarney, there is a herd on the island and also red deer in Letterfrack and Doneraile. I mention this for the benefit of the Leader of the House because of his admonishment outside the House yesterday.

Let me mention for the Senator's benefit that he should read again the memo circulated to Members in relation to the Order of Business.

Being the last day of term I thought I might receive that slight indulgence.

I agree with my colleague, Senator Farrell, that there is an urgent need for a debate on happenings within An Bord Pleanála. There are huge discrepancies between decisions made by local authorities and those made by the board which is comprised of unqualified citizens. There is a need for a debate on the topic.

I ask the Leader of the House to consider arranging a debate on the exorbitant cost of prescribed drugs which seems excessively high compared to that in the United Kingdom and across Europe. People are very concerned about this matter. The Government must be aware of the cost because of the huge quanitity of drugs dispensed under the medical card system. I call for an urgent debate on the matter and raise the question of whether deregulation of the entire industry is called for.

I support the call for a debate on the role of An Bord Pleanála, about which we have talked about many times. I am very uneasy. It is an agency in respect of which it seems there is no accountability. We could broaden the issue to include the NRA and investigate how An Bord Pleanála's role fits in with that of other agencies in relation to planning and rezoning. We should ask the Minister to come to the House in May to account for how the board operates. We are living in an era of transparency and accountability. Perhaps, the media could hold the people concerned as well as others to account.

I support the call made by my colleagues for a debate on An Bord Pleanála. It amazes me when I read the inspector's report how the final decision of the board is totally at odds with what the inspector recommended. As Senator Ormonde said, the debate should be broadened to include the NRA.

I ask the Leader of the House to ask the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources to come to the House to discuss conservation measures in the fishing industry, particularly in relation to North Atlantic wild salmon. I have noted that Ireland is the only European country not to have signed the North Atlantic Salmon Fund Conservation Charter. There are approximately 1,400 small salmon fishermen around the coast. Stocks are diminishing as a result of which their livelihoods are being dramatically affected. In the House recently the Minister dealt with the National Salmon Commission and the tagging system and ruled out any compensation measures for the setting aside or surrendering of licences. This is happening in all other European countries and of major importance to our salmon fishermen. While conservation measures are essential, we must also ensure the men concerned who have worked hard all their lives are not left without any financial return.

Senators Manning, O'Meara, Dardis, Ross, Cosgrave and Coghlan all paid tribute to the late Godfrey Timmins. As Leader of the House and on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, I wish to be associated with those tributes. Godfrey was a decent, honourable man. I had the honour of being vice-chairman of the Services Committee when he was chairman. Much of the work done to improve facilities in the House was due to his stewardship. We visited the House of Commons and discussed how to achieve the improvements made during his term of office. I visited him at his home in Baltinglass in the course of every Seanad election and enjoyed a very good personal friendship with him. Party affiliations did not matter to him, he was a friend to all. In his time he was Chief Whip of the Fine Gael Party and served as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. He also served as a member of Wicklow County Council for almost 50 years. He was the sort of person that if he could not do one a good turn, he would not do one a bad turn. He was not in the business of giving offence. I extend my sympathies and those of the House to his wife, Nora, and son, Billy. It gave him great personal satisfaction to see Billy elected to Dáil Éireann. It was an endorsement of his great work and a lifetime devoted to public service to see his son following in his footsteps in the last general election. He took great pride in his association with his local GAA football team in Baltinglass, of which he was president, prior to his death yesterday evening.

Senators Manning and O'Toole made inquiries about the referendum Bills which are due to come before the House shortly. The House will return on Tuesday, 1 May. With the agreement of the Whips and leaders, it is proposed to take all Stages of the four referendum Bills from 1 to 4 May, inclusive. Thirty days must elapse before a referendum may be held. As these Bills do not require a motion for earlier signature, the earliest date on which the referenda could be held would be the second week in June. The Houses will return on 1 May and all the Bills will be before the House by the Friday of that week.

Senators Manning, O'Toole and Dardis expressed their opinions on the RTÉ television programme dealing with events in 1970 and 1971. I watched the programme and it certainly gave an insight into those events which had not been presented before. The Senators' suggestion is a worthwhile one and I will pass it on to the Taoiseach.

Senators O'Toole and O'Meara referred to No. 1 on the Order Paper. This item covers events, including the Slane event. Senator O'Meara called for a debate on the economy, particularly the effect of inflation on the national development plan. I will arrange for this debate. Inflation is beginning to affect the plan. I hope to arrange an all-day debate on the economy, banking and everything connected with the national development plan soon after the Easter recess. Senator O'Meara also called for a debate on poverty. I will arrange for a debate on the subject.

Senators Farrell, Dan Kiely, Ormonde and Bonner called for another debate on An Bord Pleanála. We debated the matter two weeks ago, but I will endeavour to arrange to do so again before the summer recess.

I will pass on to the Minister for Finance the views of Senator Coghlan on the effect of the foot and mouth emergency on small businesses. Some family businesses in the tourism industry have been maintained for many years with very low profit margins. The Minister should make an arrangement to ensure these businesses continue. No support is available for them. An understanding must be agreed to support them in this difficult time.

An improvement in the tourism business has been noticeable in the past week. Bookings for the summer have returned to 75% of what they were. If we can keep the foot and mouth plague out of Ireland, we will be in a very advantageous position in two months' time. I call on all Irish people to stay at home and enjoy their holidays in Ireland this year and support the small family tourism businesses which have been the backbone of communities and parishes throughout the country.

Senator Dan Kiely called for a debate on the high cost of drugs. I will have time allowed for that. Senator Bonner called on the Minister for the Marine to implement conservation measures to protect salmon fishermen. I will allow for this.

I wish you, a Cathaoirligh, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, the Clerk and Deputy Clerk, the leaders of all the groups, party whips, the press, the ushers, the Garda Síochána and everyone associated with the work of the House a very happy and holy Easter. I look forward to being back again on Tuesday, 1 May.

Order of Business agreed to.
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