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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 2001

Vol. 167 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today is No. 1, Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Committee and Remaining Stages; No. 2, Children Bill, 1999 – Second Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed 10 minutes; and No. 3, statements on rural and western development, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. If business is not concluded the remaining business will be taken after 8 p.m.

The Order of Business is agreed. May I raise two issues very briefly? The first is of importance, particularly to those of us from the west, south-west and north-west. It is Iarnród Éireann's proposed fare increases. It is inappropriate that any State or semi-State company should impose increases without giving value in return. Instead of raising fares and infusing Government money into an archaic system, I ask that the Minister come to the House and indicate to us proposals to upgrade the system and then when we have the value we can charge for it.

The second issue is in regard to the insurance industry. It has been brought to my attention that the Central Bank regulations on the Irish insurance industry are very restrictive in comparison with those experienced by an English company or any foreign company that wishes to establish itself here. The same regulations do not apply and therefore it is not a level playing field. I ask that the Minister come to the House to explain how these regulations can be adjusted so that we can ensure all will be treated equally and that the Irish industry will be treated on the same footing as any other.

Yesterday, due to a technical regulation, the Chair made a correct ruling which did not allow us to put down an amendment to the Order of Business. I respect that ruling but I wish to put it down today. It is that we take No. 19 today immediately after the Order of Business. The reason is the continuing controversy about the European Union and Ireland's role in it and the welcome intervention this morning of Mr. Pat Cox, MEP, in reply to Mr. Michael McDowell. It would be appropriate if this particular debate took place in these Houses. We had the support of Fine Gael for it yesterday, and we had the opportunity for the Government side to support the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, in his attitude to the reprimand by Mr. Solbes. We have already noted that Mr. Solbes has decided not to meet anybody from here as Senator O'Toole said yesterday.

I am just about to finish as I see the Chair getting a little edgy. That is not a pejorative remark, it happens to all Members of the House. An opportunity to congratulate the Minister for Finance on his attitude should be provided, not only to the Fine Gael and Independent Senators who supported the proposal yesterday but to those on the Government side too.

I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Public Enterprise to come to the House to discuss Iarnród Éireann's fare increases, which have already been mentioned. Aer Lingus is going into the red for the first time in recent times. An Post will lose £8 million this year and £80 million over the next three years. The Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, should come to the House to discuss these important areas of public service which fall under her remit. We need to have a full debate on areas which are in crisis, like public transport, Aer Lingus and An Post.

I support the call for a debate on the European Union. This country has become a Tower of Babel and many things are being said that should have been said in advance of the discussion on the substance of the treaty.

Hear, hear.

This debate should have taken place before the question was put to the people, but it did not. It is time that level-headed politicians took a grip of the situation and constructed a coherent and reasoned argument that can be put to the public.

The McKenna judgment and the Referendum Commission restrict politicians to the extent that it is not possible to add substance to a debate on a referendum on any issue, domestic or European. It is not possible to communicate a message to the electorate, a problem that needs to be addressed. If an argument is stripped of the voice and the conviction of those who believe in it, it will die as it did in the last referendum. Voices were heard on our televisions at a cost to the taxpayer of about £1 million.

The Senator should not pre-empt the debate.

The television advertisements were utterly meaningless and no message of any value was conveyed.

Today is World Refugee Day. I raised yesterday the need for the Minister to come in to discuss the issue of refugees and asylum-seekers. It would be fitting if the Minister were to extend a work permit to those who were here before December 2000 as they are anxious to work and to contribute to the social and economic life of the country. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to come here within the next few days to discuss the possibility of granting more work permits to celebrate World Refugee Day.

There was a disturbing report on the front page of Monday's Irish Independent. It gave hope to the victims of paedophilia, particularly those abused by members of the Catholic Church. The headline said that a fund of £90 million was to be created to be given to them. An article in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times contained a denial that any discussion had taken place about the fund. Victims of paedophilia and child abuse, whether at the hands of the State or the Catholic Church, have endured much in recent years. It is neither sensible nor right that a newspaper should contain a headline such as appeared in the Irish Independent on Monday. The people involved have suffered grave abuse and the headline in Monday's Irish Independent was a further abuse, which was compounded by Patsy McGarry's denial in The Irish Times yesterday that this happened. I expected that the Irish Independent would have responsibility—

Has the Senator a request for the Leader?

The Irish Independent should withdraw or confirm the report. We should have a debate on the responsibility of the press in matters which are pertinent to the lives of many people in the State. Yesterday's newspapers—

It is not in order on the Order of Business to discuss newspaper reports or headlines.

Mr. Martin Hynes, chief executive of the Irish Blood Transfusion Service, stated in a recent report that there is a crisis in blood transfusion services in Ireland. We must have a debate on the Lindsay tribunal and on why there is such a significant problem with blood transfusion services. People are not giving blood and there are major emergencies as a result. The matter should be discussed so that it can be established where the Lindsay tribunal is heading.

The Senator has made the case for a debate.

This is an extremely urgent matter. Some hospitals cannot get enough blood for transfusions.

The Senator can make these points during the debate he seeks.

I seek an urgent debate.

May I trespass on your patience, a Chathaoirligh, as I am also a Member of the European Parliament, and endorse your welcome to the speaker of the Czech Republic Senate and his colleagues? Given the situation in Ireland following the Nice treaty referendum I, like most of my colleagues, look forward to the day the Czech Republic, building on its unique history and culture, will be in a position to contribute fully as a member of the European Union.

The Senator should speak through the Chair and not to the gallery.

I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, on behalf of all of us for your welcome to our visitors.

I endorse the request by Senators Ross, Quill and others for a debate on Ireland's policy on Europe following the Nice treaty referendum as distinct from a debate on EU policy. It is a kind use of language to refer to a lack of coherence in Government strategy. We know what that means.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance to come to the House because he has a particular opinion on this issue? He is a good debater and a proper debate should be structured whereby different positions can frankly be put on the record of the House followed by a question and answer session, which the Minister would welcome because he would be able to think on his feet. A frank, honest and healthy debate about Ireland's position could be held as a result, which I would welcome. Perhaps the debate—

These matters can be discussed among the Whips. The time for the Order of Business is limited and a number of other Senators wish to speak.

I am trespassing on your patience, a Chathaoirligh, but you were generous with others.

There are also concerns among the farming community about Europe. Farm leaders are in Brussels today awaiting the latest news on EU intervention. If that issue cannot be discussed in the debate I have requested, could time be made available to address the concerns of the farming community vis-à-vis Europe generally?

I am grateful to Senator Lanigan. I was in Shanghai yesterday and I did not, therefore, get an opportunity to read the newspapers. Having listened to his contribution, I have had a complete digest of yesterday's Irish press.

I second Senator Ross's amendment. I am particularly pleased that a number of interesting political sources have publicly caught up with the position taken by those of us who opposed the Nice treaty because of its military implications. I concur with what Senator Doyle said and I am very glad she was here to say it.

We on this side who opposed the Nice treaty always uniformly supported enlargement of the EU. I ask our Czech friends who are here with us to take the message home that it was not a rejection of them or of our other colleagues. We have principled and conscientious reasons that we wish to retain military and moral independence and neutrality as far as possible. We have found it extremely useful in terms of world diplomacy.

If democracy means anything, it means that when one is asked a question, one has the right to say "No" just as much as one has the right to say "Yes". The Government is foolish if it starts to lecture the electorate and to tell it how confused, stupid and ignorant it is. That is the way to get another "No" vote.

It will not be able to lecture as well as the Senator.

Confusingly.

I am not paid for it.

Awards have recently been given to airlines, which must be congratulated. Yesterday Ryanair was given an award for its competence in running an airline at little cost to the taxpayer. However, the opposite is the case in Aer Lingus. Millions of pounds have been poured into Aer Lingus over the years and millions of pounds have been lost. There is no accountability from anyone within Aer Lingus to the Minister, to this House or to the other House.

We talk about the press and the way it can say what it wishes, particularly about semi-State bodies. There is a need for someone from Aer Lingus to come into this House to explain what is going on and if it is facing more losses this year. The airlines we have given little funding to over the past ten years are now getting international awards. There are serious questions to be asked.

I would welcome more debate in this House on the European Union, particularly its future development. I agree with what Senator Avril Doyle said. I thought we had an arrangement whereby European personnel could be brought before this House for a useful debate. I suggest that should happen, although I am not taking away from the suggestion that the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, should come before us.

I agree with Senator Coogan's comments about Iarnród Éireann. The first priority must be to improve the service in terms of carriages, timing and elimination of overcrowding. I also agree with his remarks about the regulation of the insurance industry. A level playing pitch must be a sine qua non. I would welcome a debate in this House on that issue.

I read in the Irish Farmers' Journal that the payment of the EU ewe premium to hard pressed sheep farmers might be delayed until September. I ask the Leader to pursue this matter urgently with the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development because these people are in dire straits as a result of the year they have had. Those payments should be expedited.

I congratulate the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Fahey, on his comments about the way our fishing industry has been treated over the past 30 years by the European Union. I ask the Leader for a debate on the fishing industry.

The Minister has raised two important points since he became Minister. The first relates to how controls are being implemented, particularly in the other member states. The second point, which was raised yesterday, relates to the fact that many of our fishing rights were sold out in the early 1970s. He is the first Minister to speak out about this issue. I would like a full debate on this issue in the House so we can hear the Minister's views.

I support the call for a debate on the rail fare increases to be introduced by Iarnród Éireann. It is disgraceful and unacceptable that of the thousands of people who travel on the same train between Dublin and Dundalk, passengers from Malahide, Skerries and Balbriggan will not pay increased fares, while those from Laytown, Drogheda and Dundalk will pay an 11% increase from next week. It shows the arrogance of Iarnród Éireann. I ask the Minister to come into the House for an urgent debate on this issue.

I support the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senators Ross and Norris. It is a very thought-provoking and timely interjection which could be coupled with the call for a debate on Europe by Senator Doyle. As the only Member of the European Parliament here, and as she is in the country today, perhaps time could be provided for a short debate.

I am delighted to make such an impact when I turn up.

In light of Mr. Justice Carney's recent remarks about the delay in serious criminal cases coming to trial, could we have a debate on the courts system and the way the courts operate?

Senators Coogan, Costello, Dino Cregan and O'Dowd called for a debate on the portfolio of the Minister for Public Enterprise, particularly on the increases proposed by Iarnród Éireann and on Aer Lingus, An Post and other State agencies. I will make time available for such a debate at the earliest possible opportunity. I remind the House, however, as Senators will be aware, that all the business we are dealing with over these weeks is legislation. I understand two more Bills will be initiated here next week and we will sit four days each week from now until mid-July. That will be extremely difficult and I will have to discuss with the leaders and the Whips later today the way statements can be taken in the House.

Senator Coogan also called for a debate on the increase in insurance fees, particularly motor insurance, in light of the fees insurers have to pay in the European Union. I have given a commitment that time will be allocated for that debate.

Senators Ross, Doyle, Norris and Cosgrave supported an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 19 be placed on the Order Paper today. To facilitate the Independent Senators, I can allow an additional hour for the Independents Private Members' time next week.

On a point of information, it is my turn and I would not like that.

Order, please. The Leader must be allowed to reply without interruption.

I cannot agree to that debate because legislation must take precedence.

Without question.

A total of 23 Bills have to be debated and passed by the House before the summer recess. In light of that, I am trying to be helpful—

The Leader is not succeeding.

—as was the Fianna Fáil group in regard to tonight's Private Members' Business.

Senators Quill, Doyle, Coghlan and Cosgrave called for a debate on the European Union, particularly in relation to the Nice referendum and including the McKenna judgment. I can make time available for this debate at the earliest possible opportunity.

Senator Jackman called for a debate on asylum seekers. I gave a commitment that I would allow time for that debate at the earliest possible opportunity. Senators Lanigan and Ross called for a debate on the responsibility of the press. The debate on the Children Bill, which will come before the House at 2.30 p.m. today, will provide an ideal opportunity to do that. Senator Lanigan also called for a debate on the Irish Blood Transfusion Service. Those points can be made in the debate on the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill, which will be taken immediately after the Order of Business. I agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senator.

I join Senator Dino Cregan in congratulating Ryanair on its award and the excellent work it does. As I have said in the House on many previous occasions, it has done a great deal for tourism. Ten years ago no one could have imagined that air travel would be so affordable. Everyone can now come home from wherever they are and from wherever Ryanair flies to almost every second weekend if they so wish. I wish to be associated with the congratulations expressed.

I will pass on Senator's Coghlan's views to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development regarding prompt payments to sheep farmers. Senator Bonner called for a debate on the fishing industry. This sector offers great potential for increased employment and exports if it is supported by way of investment. I will try to arrange such a debate. If this cannot be done, I will allow time during Fianna Fáil's next Private Members' time in three or four weeks. I will pass on Senator Cosgrave's views to the Minister and arrange a debate on the courts structure and the time involved in setting court hearings.

Senator Ross tabled an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 17, motion 19, be inserted before No. 1."

Amendment put.

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Avril.Doyle, Joe.

Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen.McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.Ross, Shane.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Ross; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and J. Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
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