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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2001

Vol. 167 No. 8

Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to introduce the Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 2000, to this House. I will take a few moments to describe an outline of some of the key provisions of the Bill. In doing so, it is worth reflecting on the historic importance the VEC sector has played in the education of generations of Irish students.

In 1924, the then Minister for Education requested a committee on technical education to report to him on the provision of technical education. It was the recommendations of this report, published in 1927, that would lead in 1930 to the first Vocational Education Act. Our vocational education sector, therefore, can be counted among the longest standing sectors in the Irish State, predating even the Constitution and, by extension, this House. In that time, the sector has played a pivotal role in the organisation, management and provision of second level education to Irish students. In recent years vocational education committees have gone beyond this role and are now engaged in the provision of wider educational services, including the critically important and developing area of adult education.

I will touch briefly on some of the key aspects of the legislation today but we will have an opportunity to discuss the details in more depth on Committee Stage. The need for reforming legislation for the VEC sector has been evident for some time. At the time of the publication of the Green Paper on education in 1992, the wide ranging role of the VEC sector, covering vocational education and training, second level education, youth work and adult education was highlighted. It was recognised that the VEC structure continued to be a core feature of Irish education. However, at the same time it was recognised that there was a clear need to ensure that the sector was equipped to recognise the many and dramatic changes in the Irish education sector which have occurred in recent years. Successive policy documents confirmed this stance and set the scene for the current reform the Minister proposes to undertake with this legislation.

At the core of the Minister's proposals lie the students. Today's students face an increasingly competitive and complex environment. We are all familiar with the development of the knowledge based society and the rise of a globalised econ omy. We know from experience that these changes offer many opportunities. We have benefited significantly from the development of the hi-tech industry in Ireland, both through the involvement of foreign corporations and the development of our own indigenous sector in this area. We have seen the rewards and prospects that this offers our students. We must also recognise that to seize these opportunities, our students will need to have access to a world class education system.

The new VEC legislation cannot in itself provide for world class education. At root, the educational experience is something unique to each individual student. It will be shaped by a range of factors, including the knowledge and expertise of their teachers, the support of their family, their peers and each student's own sense of ambition. No legislation of itself can seek to deal with the complexities of such issues. However, what this legislation can and must do is create the legal environment to give vocational education committees the means to plan their own operation so as to ensure that, through their schools and their other centres for education, they can deploy their resources in a way that is sensitive to the needs of their students and their communities. It also sets out to provide vocational education committees, as is proper for autonomous bodies, with the flexibility to enable them to respond to uncertainty and the authority to put in place effective and appropriate educational services for the needs of those they serve.

To achieve these aims, the Minister proposes a number of changes to four key areas of the current VEC legislation. This legislation will provide for a revision of the functions of vocational education committees, for more inclusive membership in vocational education committees, for more effective reporting arrangements within vocational education committees and between vocational education committees and the Minister and for an updated financial structure for the operation of the vocational education committees.

The functions of vocational education committees have remained largely unchanged since the founding legislation of 1930. However, legislation developed at a time when school attendance was compulsory only up to 14 years of age and when a general second level education was the privilege of a relatively small fraction of the population is inadequate today. The authors of the legislation identified a relatively narrow role for those schools set up under the auspices of vocational education committees. The role of these schools would be to provide "continuation education", which would supplement existing elementary education, and "technical education", which would assist in the development of the trade and craft skills required by local industry.

The modern reality of vocational education committees is radically different. VEC schools are now an integral part of our second level edu cation system, providing schooling for almost 100,000 second level students – nearly 30% of all second level students. VEC centres are actively engaged in the provision of a wide range of adult education services, from basic literacy to certificate courses. Indeed, the Government White Paper on adult education earmarked the sector as the home for the development of a resourced and comprehensive adult education service.

In the Minister's view, it is now appropriate and timely that the VEC legislation should reflect the changed reality of VEC operation. The existing functions of the vocational education committees set out in the 1930 Act will be retained. However, section 9 of this Bill sets out a more complete description of the functions of vocational education committees, capturing the reality of their role in Irish education today. The section provides that each VEC will now have a general responsibility to continually review, plan and co-ordinate the provision of education in its area. These changes, together with other changes to the way in which vocational education committees will plan their activities, particularly the education plan and service plan, are designed to change the basis for the operation of vocational education committees. The Minister's intention in these changes is to ensure that vocational education committees are in a position to structure their activities to meet the educational needs of the students they serve.

The Minister is proposing certain important changes to the manner in which the VEC will be constituted. The 1930 Act provided that the membership of the VEC would be drawn from the corresponding local authority. Of these members, not fewer than six had to be persons who were not members of the local authority but drawn from the wider community of the local business or commercial fields. It is not the Minister's intention to diminish the role of the local authority in the operation of the VEC. Local authorities have been centrally involved with the VEC sector since its establishment. Their contribution has been one of the strengths of the VEC sector.

The Bill before the House today proposes certain other changes to the model of representation. The Minister proposes to provide for statutory recognition for the partners in education to become formally involved in vocational education committees. Accordingly, the Bill provides that in addition to local authority representation, there will now be a statutory right of representation on committees for both parents of students attending vocational education committees and the staff employed by vocational education committees, including teachers. The Bill also provides that further categories of persons will also be considered for membership of each VEC, including students, representatives of voluntary bodies and local business interests.

Following the debate in the Dáil, the Minister introduced amendments to extend these categories so as to ensure that consideration will also be given to classes of staff who may not be represented following the election of staff members to the VEC. This might include representatives of the administrative staff of a VEC. The Minister has also made provision for representatives of religious trustees who may be trustees of schools which are operated under the auspices of a VEC. Typically, these schools would be the result of a merger between a VEC school and a local voluntary secondary school. These broad categories will allow vocational education committees to continue to involve a breadth of interests from each local community in the operation of the VEC.

The Education Act, 1998, has already given the principle of partnership a statutory footing in the education system. That Act has given parents a new range of statutory responsibilities and rights, ranging from the recognition of local parents' associations in each primary and post-primary school to their formal involvement in the preparation of new models for boards of management at national level. Parents have long sought that this principle of recognition should also extend to the VEC sector. The Minister fully subscribes to that view and is happy to make this provision in this Bill. The parents of students attending VEC schools will, therefore, be able to elect two representatives to become full members of each VEC.

The Minister also considers it appropriate that the staff of the VEC should also be entitled to membership of the committee. The single most important attribute of any organisation is its staff and it is appropriate that their involvement should be formalised by distinct provision in the membership of the VEC. Therefore, in the same way as parents, the staff of each VEC will be entitled to elect two representatives to sit on the VEC. The Minister has made provision that where a class of staff proves not to be represented in this formula, consideration must be given to including such staff as a member of the four extra persons to be nominated to the VEC.

In relation to the changes the Minister is proposing to reform the planning structures within vocational education committees, the Minister considers it to be desirable to take account of the changes which have developed in other spheres of local government in recent years. The health boards have, for example, undertaken a new method for the organisation of their work through the use of an annual service plan. Local authorities have adopted a somewhat more long-term framework for their operation, which allows for the identification of the needs of their local communities and the preparation of plans to meet those needs.

The Minister considers it essential that vocational education committees should have the tools to allow them to undertake their work in a targeted and focused manner. Vocational education committees today have responsibility for a wide range of educational needs, ranging from the new entrant to second level education and students undertaking post-leaving certificate courses to obtain specific job relevant skills to the adult learner who is undertaking further study in any one of a range of areas. These needs are met through numerous schools and centres for education, with services provided daily by teachers and administrative staff.

The role of the VEC is not limited to the present; it is equally important to anticipate the needs of tomorrow's students. In the Minister's view the techniques of annual and medium-term planning offer vocational education committees excellent opportunities to approach these challenges in a structured way. Indeed, most vocational education committees have built such principles into their planning process. This legislation will place these principles on a legal basis.

Section 25 of the Bill will require that each VEC prepare a service plan. The legislation provides that it will be prepared each year immediately after the allocation of resources by the Minister for Education and Science, an allocation which will be made after the budget. The plan will set out the income the VEC expects to receive that year and how it proposes to allocate that expenditure. The service plan will also set out broad categories of service which each VEC will provide and the estimated expenditure it will incur in providing that service. The service plan thus provides a complete picture of how a VEC intends to carry out its functions in the coming year. The Bill further provides that each VEC will at the end of the year prepare a report on how it has carried out the objectives it has set for itself in the service plan the previous year. This will allow for full accountability in the operation of the VEC. Its operations and activities will be open to outside scrutiny. This accountability will give the local community a greater understanding of the role and activities of the VEC. Where those activities might be enhanced or redirected, they will be able to so inform the VEC, thus creating a virtuous cycle of enhanced services.

At a longer-term level, section 30 of the Bill requires vocational education committees to create an education plan. The function of this plan will be to set out a broad vision of the future activity of the VEC. It is intended that this plan will comprehend the next five years of operation of the VEC. It allows the committee an opportunity to focus its attention on the overall development of its services, a focus which might on occasion be sacrificed to the needs of the instant. Issues such as demographics, population shifts, changing economic circumstances or patterns of employment can feed into the thinking of the committee to inform it in its plans for the future development of the VEC.

It will be the role of the chief executive officer to prepare a draft education plan at the direction of the VEC. In so doing, the chief executive officer will consult such persons or organisations as the VEC itself considers appropriate. It will be the final responsibility of the VEC to consider the plan as prepared by the chief executive officer, to make such amendments as it sees fit and to formally adopt the final plan. In each subsequent year thereafter the chief executive officer shall prepare a report for the VEC on the operation of the plan. This will provide a useful opportunity for the VEC to consider the operation of the VEC in the context of the identified needs and objectives of the VEC. The VEC may also at this stage take the opportunity to amend the plan in light of unanticipated events.

The Minister has also made provision in this Bill for the introduction of the reserved executive model into the VEC sector. This model, which is in widespread use throughout the other spheres of local government, provides for a division of the policy and executive responsibilities of each VEC. The policy functions, which are known as reserved functions, are assigned as the responsibility of the committee of the VEC. Thus the preparation of both the service plan and the education plan will fall within the scope of the committee. While the officials of the VEC may assist in the preparation or compilation of information, the formal adoption of these plans will be the responsibility of the committee alone.

The Bill assigns executive functions to the chief executive officer. In bringing forward this reserved executive model the Minister is conscious of its proven success throughout local government. It acknowledges the role which should be accorded to the elected and appointed members of the vocational education committees. It is proper that these representatives are charged with the role and responsibility for the overall direction of the VEC. The officials of the organisation are in their turn responsible for the effective implementation of those policies and are accountable to the representatives for failure to do so.

I want to point out some of the more recent amendments made to this Bill in the other House which also affect the issue of reporting arrangements. In line with the recent trends towards enhanced accountability of public bodies, particularly to the Oireachtas, the Minister has made provision to ensure the right of any committee of either House of the Oireachtas to be able to summon the chief executive officer of a VEC to such committee to allow for that committee to consider such aspects of the operation of the VEC as it deems appropriate. Vocational education committees will now have a statutory duty to comply with such requests. In many ways this merely provides a legislative basis for common practice among vocational education committees in recent years. For example, it has long been the practice for vocational education committees to attend the Committee of Public Accounts to respond to queries on their financial operation. Sections 17 to 19 will provide a legislative basis for the maintenance of this practice and its exten sion to include other committees of the Oireachtas.

A further element of the Bill provides for the regularisation of the position of County Dublin VEC. The legal basis for that VEC is currently governed in a somewhat ad hoc manner by the Blanchardstown Institute of Technology legislation. This arose due to a redesign of the local authority borders in the Dublin area, which has led to some departure from the traditional local authority-VEC area alignment. County Dublin VEC now extends to cover three local authority areas. The Regional Technical Colleges (Amendment) Act, 1999, made an interim provision for these three local authorities to elect the members of that VEC. It has been the view of the Minister for some time that it is necessary to ensure that this provision is replaced and the activities of County Dublin VEC, one of the biggest VEC schemes in the country, placed on a more secure footing. Indeed the Regional Technical Colleges (Amendment) Act requires this as the provision in that law expires this year.

Accordingly, this Bill provides for such a basis for the operation of the County Dublin VEC. The Bill also provides that the Minister may, by order, following consultation with the groups involved, provide for a realignment of the Dún Laoghaire VEC border, to become conterminous with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. The Minister is aware that there has been some discontinuity in this area since the recent reforms to local government. However, he is also conscious of the need to consult fully with all the affected parties before taking any decisions in this area. Accordingly, the Minister has provided that any such order must be preceded by the appropriate and proper consultation to ensure that the ultimate outcome will reflect the needs and wishes of the affected communities.

I am pleased to bring this Bill before this House today. The provisions of this Bill set out the most noteworthy reforms of the VEC sector since its establishment in 1930. Both the Minister and I believe that these reforms will significantly enhance the operation of the VEC sector and, in so doing, enhance the quality of education being provided through this sector. In making his proposals, the Minister is conscious of the need to ensure that the essential strengths of the VEC sector – local involvement and devolved decision-making – are retained. The Minister is confident that they have not only been retained, but enhanced. The inclusion of parents and staff in a formal manner on vocational education committees recognises the important role of both these partners in education. The new procedures for the nomination of four further members to the VEC from the wider community sector will ensure that vocational education committees can continue to draw upon the talents and resources of their local communities.

In terms of the internal operation of vocational education committees, this Bill has significantly revised the old financial and reporting structures set out in the 1930 VEC legislation. The Minister believes that these changes are necessary to allow vocational education committees to plan and structure their work in today's environment. I look forward to a positive and constructive debate on this Bill and a chance to consider the details of the Bill on Committee Stage. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, to the House. I also welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Bill.

The Bill is largely non-contentious. Its purpose is to provide for new structures and procedures so that individual vocational education committees can meet the needs of the vocational education in their areas in as effective and efficient a manner as possible.

The Bill's principal aim is the revision of the composition of the vocational education committees to include representation on the committees of parents of students registered in VEC institutions and VEC staff, including teachers. This is one of the more interesting aspects of the Bill. It is an area at which the Minister should look closely before the final conclusion of the Bill.

The other provisions in the Bill, such as the classification of the functions exercised by the vocational education committees into reserved and executive functions, are basically what have operated in local authorities and health boards for a long time. The Bill also provides for additional functions for vocational education committees and revised reporting, accounting and financial procedures. Implicit in this is that the Department has learned from the misdemeanours and shortcomings highlighted in some vocational education committees in the past, with people being hauled before the Committee of Public Accounts to explain their actions. I welcome such new procedures.

While the Bill, in itself, is not offensive, the explanatory memorandum states that the Bill's purpose is the provision of new structures to meet the needs of vocational education in the areas in which vocational education committees serve. These can vary from county to county or from one VEC area to another. For instance, Mayo VEC, the chairman of which is a Member of the Seanad, has been successful in administering vocational education needs and facilities throughout County Mayo. By contrast, some other vocational education committees are not so successful.

The concept of vocational education set out in the original 1930s legislation establishing vocational education committees is very dated. Some committees are very progressive providers of academic and vocational education. However, it must be asked if there is a need for an overview of the Department of Education and Science and the possibility that it might divest itself of some of its functions. That could result in the enhancement of the delivery of education at local level.

It was a pity that the former Minister, Deputy Martin, decided not to proceed with the proposed regional education boards. While they were not an ideal solution they could have become a successful mechanism for the delivery of education. They offer the possibility of greater democracy and accountability in education at local level and a greater capacity to respond to local needs. This would have worked well in certain areas which are bogged down in bureaucracy.

The Department recently commissioned the Cromien report to review its operations. It should be debated in the House and on several occasions we have asked the Leader to arrange one. I hope a debate will be held in the early part of the next session. The report made some very worthwhile suggestions in regard to the Department divesting itself of the responsibility for organising State examinations. No doubt it will be one of the recommendations to be fast tracked following the debacle of the ASTI dispute.

The Department is undertaking responsibility for all issues and is not delegating at local level. There are ongoing difficulties in various schools which, if left to the staff and locally elected and unelected representatives, would have been resolved long ago. Such procedures would allow the Department more scope to apply itself to policy issues. As an example of what is involved, the principal of a primary or post-primary school must seek departmental permission for new windows, doors and other maintenance work. This centralised practice is outdated. There should be a localised contact point and in this regard the process of communication between Athlone, Tullamore and local school management should be changed as quickly as possible. School principals should be able to contract work from local plumbers, electricians, etc., without having to obtain sanction from Athlone or Tullamore. While the Bill is welcome the Minister should indicate when some of the Department's functions will be delegated. Dealing with ongoing problems on a daily basis hinders its ability to be an effective agent of policy change in education.

There is a need to cement a relationship in education between the interested parties, including parents and their children, teaching staff and elected representatives. Those outside the VEC sector react when any attempt is made to consider an outside democratic structure in education embracing both the VEC and non-VEC sectors. There is a reluctance to proceed on this basis because of perceived and real evidence of political interference. The provision to which I referred earlier will only give the opponents of democratisation and accountability a further stick to beat us with.

Local elected members constitute a legitimate voice and they are directly accountable to the public they serve. The provision for the vetting of members will do them a disservice.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the Member circulating his script?

Later. If we are serious about partnership the partners in education should be given an automatic nominating right, otherwise there will be a politically driven vocational education committee system with all of the worst consequences. Without a commitment to progressing the agenda of greater democratisation and accountability those outside the VEC will use this aspect as a means to criticise.

There is nothing very contentious in the Bill, which is broadly welcome. The Department of Education and Science should examine placing further democratic accountability in the delivery of education at local level outside VEC structures and the Minister should let us know of any plans in this regard. Members regularly encounter the cumbersome process involved in a school seeking an extension or securing a grant aid. If these matters were dealt with at local level they would be handled more efficiently in terms of finance and time.

The Department indicated that it takes six years for sanction in principle to be given to the building of a new school or the extension of an old one. For a post-primary school that means a body of students will have started and finished their education before any new provisions are made. They are often educated in inappropriate and unsuitable accommodation, such as prefab or overcrowded classrooms. These issues could be best dealt with at local level, either by expanding the remit of vocational education committees to cover voluntary schools or by establishing parallel institutions.

It is regrettable that the regional education boards were rejected. However, there is some light at the end of the tunnel in terms of what has been identified in the Cromien report. The Murray report, a review of vocational education committees, has gathered dust in that the politically difficult issues it raised were fudged.

It is time we paid heed to putting in place an accountable structure for education to provide a forum for the partners outside the VEC sector to have a say in the running of education. That would leave the Minister more time to deal with the policy issues. There is merit in the view that the ASTI dispute may not have reached its current impasse if the Department had been in a position to concentrate on the issues best dealt with nationally while divesting itself of local issues which clog up the system and lead to inefficiencies and bureaucratic delays.

There is considerable potential for streamlining the VEC sector and rationalising the system generally. The opportunity has been missed in that no attempt has been made in the Bill to deal with this matter. It must be asked why some vocational education committees are running more efficiently than others and why some have been more successful than others.

I welcome the provisions to broaden the base of VEC members and the move to provide on a statutory basis for the greater involvement of parents, staff and students. The Bill provides for new procedures, now commonplace in local authorities and health boards, to cover the definition of functions and the distinction between reserved and executive functions. It should be welcomed and I hope it will provide for better accounting and reporting procedures, services and education plans. These are standard practice in other local bodies, such as the local authorities, and it is long overdue that the same requirements be made of the VEC sector.

Many vocational education committees have shown themselves to be extremely innovative and have been to the fore in providing new programmes in the second level system. That type of enthusiasm has been important from the point of view of the general well being of the sector. There is a vibrancy, especially among teachers, who have been very keen to make tailor-made programmes, services and courses to meet the needs of local catchment areas. The vocational education committees have played a very successful and useful role in this. They have also encouraged people to attend their schools.

However, there are weaknesses which must be recognised, one of the principal being that they have been over-politicised. This has led to a certain amount of cynicism on the part of teachers and other stakeholders in education. The role of and the provision made for vocational education committees in this legislation is progressive in their representation of a range of community interests and their assessment of education in a local catchment area.

There are good principles in the legislation, including the need to draw up education and service plans, the need to co-operate with other vocational education committees and the need to consult and work widely with parents and students within the catchment area. Many of the principles in the Bill should be applied to the entire education system. They make a good argument for a devolved system and local education structures.

Section 12 deals with the function of the chief executive officer and executive functions. Concern has been expressed in vocational education circles that during industrial relations difficulties, those directly involved would have had access to board members and independent arbitration. Will the Minister elaborate on the consequences of the section dealing with industrial relations disputes? What elements of the State's industrial relations machinery will be available? Certain provisions in previous vocational education committees Acts make specific avenues available to VEC employees to resolve disputes. Will unhindered access to arbitration be guaranteed?

The Bill also deals with the composition of the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee, which involves three local authorities and one vocational education committee. The Minister should reconsider the section with a view to broadening the representation for the other nominating bodies.

I thank all the educational bodies and teachers, brothers and nuns who have contributed greatly to the educational process throughout the country. I welcome the Bill and will deal with it in more detail on Committee Stage.

I have great pleasure in contributing to the debate because I spent much of my working life as a teacher and guidance counsellor. I also served as a member of the County Dublin VEC and I have an understanding of its functions and success over the years. The Vocational Education Act, 1930, has stood the test of time and it has enabled vocational education committees to reflect changes over the years. As the Minister said, under the 1930 Act, school attendance was up to the age of 14 years only and second level education in those years was the preserve of the few. The purpose of technical education was to supplement elementary education. As the Minister said, the landscape today is very different from that of the 1930s. Society has become more complex and legislation must reflect these changes. It must create a legal environment to give vocational education committees flexibility to enable them to respond to uncertainty and give them the authority to put in place effective and appropriate educational services for the people they serve.

VECs are responsible for students with a wide range of educational needs, dealing with people from the age of 12 years through second level to adult education. They have the options of transition year, the academic leaving certificate, the vocational leaving certificate, the applied leaving certificate, post-leaving certificate programmes, VTOS and adult education, giving all groups an opportunity to stay in the education system. To meet these needs, vocational education committees have responsibility for schools, centres of education, employees, teachers and administrative staff.

The Bill plans for the future needs of students, reflecting the changing needs of education and the local community. It proposes two important changes. It will require a VEC to prepare a service plan, which is a statement of its income and expenditure for the year, and how it proposes to allocate expenditure. It will also give a picture of how the VEC intends to carry out its functions in the coming year and report on how it carried out its objectives and financial responsibilities. The presentation of accounts will also have to be modernised to give a greater understanding at local level in terms of how the VEC operates. This is welcome because the financial arrangements were complex in the past. I worked there, but I never understood them during the nine years I dealt with the County Dublin VEC.

The second important change is the need for an education plan. Each VEC must implement a five year plan which reflects a broad vision of the future and all the activities of the VEC. It will be a framework with regard to how the VEC will operate following a process of consultation. The education plan will enable vocational education committees to focus their attention on the overall development of their services. Population shifts, changing economic circumstances and patterns of employment will be incorporated into the thinking of the committee. The chief executive officer must consult teachers, parents and other interested persons and there will be an annual review of the plan and its implementation. When will the five year plan start? Will it begin as soon as the legislation is enacted or will it start after the next local authority elections? It is an important issue and the vocational education committees want to know if it will start immediately. Will there be continuity of thinking or will there be a new composition after the next local elections?

In relation to section 7 and the composition of the vocational education committees, the Minister has provided for wider membership and for putting it on a statutory basis. The committee will represent a wide range of interests, including local authority representatives, teachers and parents, with the balance provided by local employees, employers and the community. This shows that vocational education has always been vested at local level and it maintains a link between the VEC and the local community.

Another aspect of the Bill is the revised reporting arrangements. The new model that will be applied to vocational education committees involves a division of policy between reserved and executive functions. Reserved functions are proposed for management regarding the overall policy direction. It will deal with the service and education plans adopted by the committee. The executive function, under the chief executive officer's stewardship, will be responsible for the management of the VEC's activities. The chief executive officer will be accountable to the committee at all times. I welcome this change, which is based on the model of local government and health boards.

Elected members are responsible for setting out the policies and principles which should guide the organisation for which they are responsible. Will the five year plan start when a new committee is established after the election of a new local authority? This important issue is repeatedly raised by members of vocational education committees. The policies will refer to population shifts in areas where numbers are dropping, disadvantaged areas, literacy problems and special needs issues, which have been streamlined. It is important to recognise that the committee will have a major responsibility in relation to planning for the future needs of the VEC.

VECs are noted for their training in the skills area, such as carpentry, plumbing, brick-laying etc. Vocational training should not be forgotten. Over the years, it has shifted to the academic model of secondary voluntary schools, losing sight of its real objective. The core values associated with VEC training that started with the group certificate and moved on towards apprenticeships have slipped away. In the past, vocational education committees focused on the skills area, taking in those who were more practically orientated. There was a definite divide between those who were academically inclined and those who aimed towards practical subjects.

All the vocational education committees reflected the employment trends and adapted their courses accordingly. They opened their doors to students who were prepared to move towards skilled areas. They prepared students for secretarial skills, office work, home economics, cookery, dress making, art, engineering and woodwork. They always maintained a link with the weakest students. Having worked with the City of Dublin VEC for many years, I experienced the contribution made by vocational education committees, the expertise of teachers in dealing with many problems and how the vocational education committees set up structures to deal with them.

The City of Dublin VEC set up the first pilot scheme called the psychological service. This model should be used by other vocational education committees. Psychologists, guidance counsellors, remedial teachers and home-school liaison teachers worked together on difficult cases as they arose. I compliment the City of Dublin VEC on its Trojan work and innovative thinking in dealing with such issues. I also compliment the vocational education committees on meeting the demands of local areas for second chance education, post-leaving certificate opportunities and preparation for third level.

The City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee was responsible for providing regional colleges, 23 second level schools and the six third level colleges which are now the Dublin Institute of Technology. Many colleges, such as those in Rathmines, Bolton Street, Mountjoy Square and Ballyfermot, stemmed from local VEC schools and have become constituent colleges of the Dublin Institute of Technology. VEC third level institutions gave opportunities to people to participate in third level education. They created the career path of certificate, diploma and degree for those who might not have had a chance of such a career but for the innovative structures provided by vocational education committees. They were ahead of their time in acknowledging the needs of communities and in providing courses to fit into the needs of their areas.

Post-leaving certificate courses were developed by vocational education committees at a time of great unemployment to keep students in education. New initiatives and courses were devised and validated to cater for local demands. Pre-nursing, business, catering, computer and physical education courses are among those which were introduced to prepare students for third level education or for work. I compliment previous Ministers for Education who allowed the visionary people within the vocational education committees the flexibility to serve their communities. Having been involved in this area and in VTOS schemes, I compliment vocational education committees throughout the country which were innovative in this regard.

The Bill will place on a statutory basis what has been practised down through the years by the Dublin city and county vocational education committees and by vocational education committees throughout the country. I acknowledge the work which has been done in bringing students onto the path of education and into the world of work who might otherwise not have succeeded. At a time of high unemployment vocational education committees were pioneers in devising programmes for early school leavers, second chance education and back-to-work programmes to give those who had no chance an opportunity to get into the education world.

Adult education and leisure programmes also helped those who had time on their hands or who wished to avail of a second chance at education in retirement. Vocational education committees have been a pioneering force in adult education. The White Paper on adult education shows the Government's commitment to furthering adult education and to putting it on a proper footing with a new structure. Several Bills will have an impact on the implementation of VEC policies. The Education (Welfare) Bill, the promised youth work Bill, the Teaching Council Bill, the Children Bill and the legislation to enact the contents of the White Paper on adult education will have an impact on the workings of the vocational education committees.

Our resources need a new structure. We speak of the inter-agency and departmental co-ordination. I hope this idea will work in practice. The City of Dublin VEC has implemented such a structure for many years but its work was hampered because the structure was not placed on a statutory basis. If we are to make this structure work, resources must be provided for the work which is being done by vocational education committees. We need greater co-ordination between inter-agency programmes.

In the past vocational education committees have been noted for dealing with children at risk and have, for many years, handled the question of children at risk very well. Resources are needed to facilitate children in the move from primary to second level schools. Very often the supports, such as resource teachers and remedial teachers, which are in place in primary schools are not available in secondary and vocational schools. Vocational education committees have done much to help children who need special help but much remains to be done. Personnel, expertise and financial resources must be made available to do the necessary work to deal with problems of innumeracy and illiteracy and with problem children.

I compliment all teachers who work in the Dublin city and county vocational education committees, where I have most knowledge, and in the VEC system throughout the country. Teachers who have been employed by vocational education committees are first class. Not alone are they subject teachers but they deal with all aspects of children's welfare and with whatever problems they may have. They go beyond the call of duty and they deserve to be supported in the work they do.

I look forward to hearing the view of the Minister of State on the system of appointing teachers to VEC schools. We all know of the degrading practice of teaching appointments being made on a political basis when a teacher would not be appointed if he or she was not the right political colour. I am glad to see this practice is slowly disappearing. I have some experience of this practice because I, who was known to be politically involved, did not get a position for which I applied because I was not of the right political colour. All parties were guilty of this practice because they considered it important to maintain their political networks. Appointments are now made by a select interview board but, judging from the number of appeals made against the interview boards, I feel the system and the interview tecniques of the boards should be examined more closely. The question of appointments to teaching posts is still a controversial issue. It does not come within the remit of this Bill but it should be investigated, nonetheless. Now that we are tidying up the 1930 Act, our new regulations might also tidy up this area.

The Bill upgrades the Vocational Education Act, 1930, which was first class legislation. It has stood the test of time and no new legislation could match it. It encompassed a wide range of education services and we have heard success stories of committees working with local people throughout their counties. More detailed aspects of the Bill will be teased out on Committee Stage. The Bill will tidy up loose ends, complement the work of VEC members and continue the link between the democratic process and local communities.

I welcome the Bill, limited in scope though it is. It is a joy to hear someone such as Senator Ormonde speak with such enthusiasm and knowledge of her subject. Senator Quill would have wished to be here today but she is unable to attend because of illness. She spoke to me about her wish to be here to say the sorts of things Senator Ormonde has just said.

Senator Quill would have been particularly impressed by the sentence in the Minister's speech which stated that the students are at the core of the Minister's proposals. That is the point being made in the Bill. The core of the Bill being the students is also an essential part of the 1930 Act. Some years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Howard Gardiner, the expert in education who talked about the seven different intelligences and who commented that in the past we only measured some of those intelligences. The traditional leaving certificate syllabus and academic education did not recognise the other intelligences that exist. Charles Handy, the Irish expert in this area, added to that and said that there are ten different intelligences. If a youngster starts and feels that he is not succeeding, he will continue to go down and down and end up at the back of the class. If they find they are good at something, it gives them courage, enthusiasm and confidence to be good at other things. This is the great success story of the VEC system. It finds something that people are good at and enables them to hold their heads high and so gain confidence in other things.

This morning I attended the Small Firms Association conference in Dublin Castle to hear Deirdre Purcell speak. She said that she had never spoken at a conference before but she spoke on a subject not far removed from that, about the need to get up in the morning looking forward to the day. She has had 13 different jobs, different occupations, in her working life. She spoke about teachers at school not praising some children. The great success of the VEC system is that it identifies the abilities, skills and talents of the pupils. The traditional education system measured only the ability to communicate in written form. We have now begun to realise that some of the great success stories result from the ability to communicate in spoken form. That was not measured in the past. The VEC system has been able to identify the other intelligences.

The Bill is limited in scope. It will help to equip the vocational education sector for its role in a world that is changing fast in education, a role that is developing and expanding all the time. We have every reason to be proud of our vocational education sector, not least because it is the one part of the entire education system that was created by the independent State and not inherited from the British. When one considers the world as it was in 1930 when the original legislation was passed, it was very different from that in which we live now. It is remarkable how the vocational education sector has managed to adapt itself over those years to cater for the changing needs of the citizens of Ireland. In many ways it has been the cradle of innovation in our education system.

This openness towards change is part of the culture of the sector. I experienced it for myself at first hand when I was involved in the develop ment of the leaving certificate applied programme from 1993 to 1998. To say that the vocational sector welcomed the leaving certificate applied with open arms would be a considerable understatement. It regarded it as manna from heaven and its enthusiasm and energy played a large part in the eventual success of the effort.

The sector has been in the front line of developing schemes like the VTOS and Youthreach, and perhaps most dramatically of all, it has pioneered the way in the long-neglected area of adult education. Indeed, when we look at the question of future needs, it is in the area of adult education that the greatest development will take place over the next decade. The problem of adult literacy is only now being recognised as a serious issue. The value of the vocational education system as one where people can have a second chance at education cannot be overstated.

Our present educational system has the unfortunate side-effect of leaving an unacceptable number of students by the wayside, as for one reason or other, they fail to connect with the educational train as it rushes past them. They do not manage to get on board. One of the functions of adult education is to repair and overcome that deficiency and it has not been paid enough attention up to now. This is only one of the functions of adult education. Just as important is the concept of lifelong learning, made necessary by the speed at which the world is changing around us. The notion that education is something that people finish with when they are young and never revisit during their adult lives is gone forever, and we must adapt to that reality.

It is right that we should adjust the legislative framework of the vocational education sector to reflect this changing world. We should expand the membership of the vocational education committees to include representatives of the teachers and parents of the students. I am a great believer in looking after the customer and here the customer is the student. We must focus the work of the committees by distinguishing clearly between the executive function that should be the business of the professional administrators and the policy issues that are the proper business of the committee as such. It is a good idea to introduce the concept of strategic planning so that each committee works towards agreed goals over a five-year period. Planning can be overdone as a discipline but I know from my business experience that without planning one staggers from one crisis to the next rather than setting out to meet the future in a rational and structured way.

I confess to a sense of disappointment with the Bill. The changes it proposes, while worthy in themselves, are little more than tinkering around the edges of the system. The Minister has opted for a minimalist approach and while I accept his reluctance to interfere with what is clearly a winning formula, I regret there has not been a root and branch examination of the structure of the sector. One nettle that has not been grasped is the varying size of the vocational education committees throughout the country – the smallest county has its own committee just as the largest county has one committee. There is at least an argument that in the largest counties the VEC is too big to keep closely in touch with local needs and a corresponding argument that in the smallest counties the VEC simply is not big enough to command sufficient resources to do the job properly in today's world.

It is a political challenge to face up to that. I do not think the problem of the smaller vocational education committees is sufficiently addressed by the provisions in this Bill for the committees to co-operate with each other. I suggest the nettle which has not been grasped is that the county is no longer the best framework on which to organise education. The reluctance to attack this issue is bound up with the control of vocational education committees by political parties through their membership of local authorities. That feeling is strengthened by the way in which local authority members will still have a majority on each committee under the new structure set out under the Bill. I am saying that in this House which has a very large number of local authority members and it may not be received with enthusiasm.

The irony is that continuing with the present structure will have the effect of perpetuating the centralised control of education by the Department of Education and Science, something that everybody agrees is a bad thing, but about which nobody seems to be prepared to do anything. One could even see the emphasis on strategic plans in the Bill as a means of tightening that departmental control, not of loosening it which I think is the objective.

Whatever about that, the fact remains that some intermediate structure is needed if the Department is ever to cede control from the centre, to decentralise and to empower others. Sooner or later we will have to revisit the question of regional structures in education, if we are ever to break away from over-centralisation.

I recognise that such a re-organisation must involve the whole educational system and not just the vocational education sector, but I find it discouraging that in this Bill we are copper-fastening one type of structure when what we should really be doing is considering whether we need a totally different type altogether. I say that in the knowledge that in my few years' involvement with the Council for Curriculum and Assessment and with the Department of Education and Science I was highly impressed at the talent inside the Department and the council. I was impressed by the commitment, dedication and enthusiasm of the people there and their determination to make the new system succeed. They have done that. We have heard in the past year how teachers and the education system have grasped a hold of that. Let us make sure that those in the system are given the tools to do the job through a structure that is geared to help them and not to hamper them in that effort.

I welcome the Bill. It is going in the right direction. It could be improved and, as Senator Ormonde has said, perhaps we will have an opportunity to do so in some form or other on Committee Stage. We can be proud of the system we have had since the 1930s. Let us make sure in the future to grasp the nettles that are not politically easy to grasp.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, and thank him for coming in to listen to our views on this important Bill. I am happy to add my voice to those in favour of the Bill, which replaces many of the provisions of the ground-breaking Vocational Education Act, 1930. This Bill has a much clearer definition of responsibilities and demonstrates the democratic representation in its structures, while at the same time confirming and affirming the basic principles of the vocational education system. It offers a seamless ring of lifetime learning from the early teenage years to the harsh examination period, to retraining and upskilling and into the golden years of retirement when many people decide to educate themselves. This latter group may not have been in a position to do so in their younger days although they had the capacity.

The aims and objectives which the vocational education system sets are ambitious and comprehensive. The range and depth of the educational menu which it offers is worthwhile and the responsibilities and services it offers on a day to day basis, throughout the length and breadth of the country, are praiseworthy. It is an Irish creation of which we should be justly proud, combining as it does, in a unique way, appropriate educational courses for a wide diversity of people through its democratic structures which will be representative of parents, teachers, students, members of staff, voluntary organisations and all others closely associated with its establishment and ongoing work.

The provision of quality education and ancillary services in institutions in every community is an obligation which the vocational education committees set themselves and took seriously at all times. We have heard about the democratic deficit. We should also look at the democratic benefits which the vocational education committees have brought to many communities throughout the country.

Additional functions set down in section 9 for the vocational education committees under the Vocational Education Acts bring home vividly the great burden of responsibility placed on them. It behoves all of us to ensure that all the financial provisions required to make the system work are made available. Many of the new provisions merely restate what the vocational education committees have been doing for many years. I welcome the broad emphasis being placed on democratic consultation with all the relevant sec tors throughout the communities and the deepening of democratic representation that is now being brought about. They are timely and appropriate.

The Bill provides for the confirmation in law of the responsibilities which the vocational education committees have willingly and without question taken on board down through the years. The great work they have been doing will have to be sufficiently resourced. We must ensure there is no fallback from that position.

The planning and co-ordination of educational and ancillary services in each community will be tailor made. This is welcome because each community is different. There is a diversity of people and different things work in different areas. It is one of the core obligations at the heart of the work of the VEC and from that all other obligations can flow.

The VEC is statutorily tasked in the Bill with the review of vocational education provisions in its own areas. It is clear that in many areas, particularly in Dublin City – the area which Senator Costello and I represent – there is a need for such a review. The influx of asylum seekers and refugees seeking a haven for their families means that in the capital city there is a large cadre of people whose first language is not English and whose traditions and concepts regarding education and the passing on of their cultural values is different from ours. This means the vocational education committees must begin to map out a new way forward to allow these people access to the necessary consultation process that others will enjoy. This is something in which they must engage, taking into account the many layers of language and cultural diversity that exist within these groups.

Another key element which must be considered in such a review is the lack of impact of technology training in inner city families. While there have been excellent pilot programmes and while FÁS has endeavoured to include a module of technology training in many of its personal and community development programmes, a more organised campaign is needed to ensure adequate resources are made available with a view to bringing technology skills to young and old in inner city areas. They should be taken in and should receive the benefits of the information society. I urge the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee to make this a priority in its review of educational services within the Dublin City region. Just as we in Ireland have led the way in software development, we have an opportunity to lead the way in personal development, particularly in the areas I have mentioned. These are areas that would otherwise be seen as disadvantaged or deprived. There could not be a more appropriate time to invest substantially in bringing the skills and benefits of the information society to these citizens. We could even hold them up as a model of upskilling and education.

I welcome the strong and democratic representation for which this Bill legislates and I am sure it will play an increasingly important role in ensuring that citizens are represented properly, not only in the structures of vocational education but also in their educational and cultural needs. I wish the Bill well.

I also welcome the Minister of State to the House and, to a large extent, I welcome the Bill which he has brought before us. It is long promised legislation, being one of the early Bills which we were led to expect. When we discussed the Education Bill in 1999, we expected that the Vocational Education Bill would be before us that summer. Accordingly, we did not spend much time on certain elements which we expected to deal with in the subsequent Bill. Some of those elements are in the present Bill and some are not.

It is appropriate that we are updating the old 1930 legislation, which has stood the test of time very well. The idea and principle of vocational education was a wonderful innovation. The legislation under which it was established is just as relevant now, in terms of its intent, as it was originally.

In a sense, it happened by chance. Back in 1919, we could not even have a Department of Education. The feeling at that time was that education should be left to the Catholic Church and the other denominations on the basis that it was their preserve, they could best deliver and education was not a fit subject for State involvement. For that reason, the first Dáil, in 1919, did not establish a Department of Education. A Department of Irish was established because the State had a particular brief to ensure that Irish became the official language. In an informal sense, education was left to the existing religious denominations. That explains, to some extent, the lacuna which existed whereby none of the churches was keen on providing technical education, training or apprenticeships. That was not seen as part and parcel of the religious perception of education as academic and classical but not including the technical side.

By default, therefore, because nobody else wanted it, the State found itself in the situation of bringing in the 1930 Act and being allowed to deal exclusively with this area of education. It is noteworthy that a caveat was introduced that technical education was not to encroach on the voluntary secondary education sector. Its pupils were not allowed to take the leaving certificate, only the intermediate certificate. This was education for the poorer classes, for those who would not aspire to the heights of proper second level education. That is the lowly context in which the vocational education system was introduced, not that great work was not done in preparation for it but the imprimatur of the churches had to be obtained and that was granted on the condition that it would not interfere with anything which the churches were providing. That was something of a disgrace.

From those very humble beginnings, I am delighted the actual remit was one of inclusivity by the vocational education committees at the time, trying to reach out to all and sundry. The vocational education committees have developed as the most flexible mechanism in education since that time. That can be contrasted very starkly with the rigidity of practically all the rest of the educational system. It is the only truly democratic institution in the area of education. It may be said that, over the years, it became a puppet, to some extent, in the hands of certain political parties – one in particular which shall not be mentioned within these hallowed halls. Vocational education committees became discredited to some extent because they were tainted by politics.

I am a little concerned that the vocational education committees have such a preponderance of people appointed on a political basis from the local authorities. I do not disagree with the principle but I would like to see a better balance. In the standard VEC, all but four people out of 17 will be, more or less, political appointments. That is probably not healthy, considering the present public scepticism in relation to the political system. This should be looked at again with a view to providing a better balance between those from the political arena and those from other sectors. I ask the Minister of State to address that in his response.

VECs have done sterling work in providing education, training and the apprenticeship system. When free education was introduced and the educational system became more open to new ideas, the vocational education committees were the very first to embrace that approach and to be innovative. They created a great deal of what is now our education system, not just at second level but across a much wider plane. They revamped the junior certificate. They revamped the leaving certificate, of which they are now part and parcel, and created greater flexibility in courses and accreditation. In both certificates, there were options within categories for the first time. The vocational education committees developed a huge range of other courses dealing with young people at risk, Youthreach and outreach, unemployed people and those with inadequate literacy and numeracy skills.

As the Minister of State is well aware, the vocational education committees were the only people who actually delivered in the area of adult literacy. They were the ones charged with delivery, they recruited the volunteers, provided the outreach programmes and did a tremendous job on a shoestring budget. They produced the post-leaving certificate courses when it was seen that university education was not the only third level system of education appropriate to many people, particularly with the flexibility of society in terms of globalisation, information technology and so on. They responded in all those areas.

In a changing society, the vocational education committees were the first in any area of education to go to the community and the marketplace to see what was appropriate and to devise courses to meet particular needs. They did that, with minimal resources, through the work of the teachers in the various subjects. By and large, they were the people who developed those courses with some assistance from the curriculum development unit, an admirable body with links to Trinity College. There is no doubt that in any assessment of education, vocational education committees must be treated with respect and given kudos for the enormous amount of good work they achieved. For that reason I am very reluctant to see them being done away with as a structure. They have received much criticism from some quarters in terms of their constitution and the overall nature of education.

An idea I had in the past was that all second level education should be united under a single umbrella, and for that purpose vocational education committees and religious orders should no longer have their areas of responsibility and control. I would like to see the second level education system more united than at present. I am not sure the plethora of educational establishments, with their different structures, boards, committees, etc., is the best structure. It is very much a stand alone system, and I am not sure that is what we require.

A number of things are missing from the Bill. There is no examination of the broader structure of vocational education committees. We are largely concentrating on the committee structure and the service and education plans, accountability, etc. However, it does not look at the role of vocational education committees in education and whether we can deliver a service under the current structures. We have many stories and reports about the levels of literacy and numeracy and the level of drop out from the education system at all three levels. We do not have a coherent education system. The Minister may say it is not the function of the Bill to provide that, but the Minister for Education in the last Government, Niamh Bhreathnach, attempted to put in place regional authorities. That was probably trying to do too much too quickly in the area of education, and it fell by the wayside. However, the idea and principle are totally valid.

We need some devolved, localised cluster system of education which is able to interact between the different providers at local level. The Department of Education and Science needs sufficient flexibility so it can have people on the ground who can respond to educational and other needs at local level. No Department is so bad at linking up with local communities. The Department of Education and Science should be best in this regard as education begins at such an early stage and is a life long experience. Yet there is no structure or personnel allocated for community based activities. I cannot point to anybody in my community and say there is the local education officer. There is nobody to co-ordinate an area in terms of primary schools, secondary schools and other areas of education, which is a lack in the system. There are too many stand alone schools with no linkage. That problem is not addressed in this Bill or in the previous education legislation and it remains the biggest defect facing our education system.

Our education system is excellent and runs on automatic pilot for 80% of our students, but it has no resources in place to deal with the 20% of students who need support. That is where we fall down as that issue is not addressed.

I am concerned that while the Bill goes into considerable detail about the constitution of the committee, there is no detail whatever whether there will be committees or boards of management in the schools. Somebody has taken their eye off the ball in this respect. How can we possibly provide for structures for the committee, including accountability, the education plan and the level of interaction between parents, students, committee members, the chief executive officer, etc., when there is only one mention of a board of management? There are references to sub-committees, but they seem to have totally different roles from those of existing sub-committees. What will happen to existing sub-committees under the Bill? Will they go out of existence? Will there be a board of management which will have the same responsibilities as boards of management in secondary schools in terms of hiring staff, discipline, expulsion, etc.? Will there still be a totally centralised system where everything takes place in the head office of the VEC and nothing takes place at school level?

Where is the section dealing with the local school board? Will there be a further Bill to introduce it? Who will be on the board and from where will the membership be drawn? Will it be a board or a committee? How in God's name can we have legislation which does not provide for the structure of the school board or the education centre? If memory serves correctly, we were told under the previous education legislation that we could not touch the VEC school structure as it would be dealt with in the pending Bill. What has happened? How are we going to put together a VEC system which leaves out one of the major key elements which allows it run at local level? I have checked through the Bill and such provision is not included. Section 9 deals with boards of management, the only reference to them in the Bill. Section 31 refers to sub-committees, but those envisaged are not those which exist but relate to sub-committees on finance, curriculum, etc., with totally different functions. This is a very serious if not a fatal flaw in the Bill and I do not know what the Minister intends doing about it.

There are many problems to be addressed. For example, how will we address the complex problem of discipline in schools? It is one of the key issues being raised by teachers, parents and students and there is not a mention of it in the Bill. Will a structure be put in place to deal with it? Will it be done at local school level or VEC level? These matters must be addressed.

Much work has been done since we last dealt with education legislation, and I suppose central to that has been the Cromien report which found the Department of Education and Science, like most Departments, has a high level of bureaucracy and a low level of decentralised and local action and responsibility. These are the key areas which must be addressed. No scheme in the education system addressed them more than the VEC structure. This Bill falls short in this respect. I do not see how the upgrading of the system as proposed in this Bill will do much to improve retention rates in the educational system, ensure that decisions that should be taken at local level can be taken at local level, or make provision for an inter-agency activity, which is the norm in every problem area throughout society, whether it involves local partnerships, the local drugs task force or whatever.

All the agencies should be expected to pull their weight and play their part, but this Bill has not progressed the vocational sector along the path of the principles that were inherent in the old 1930 legislation. That is why I am disappointed with the Bill. It does not give the boost to legislation that would enable us to deal with the problems we are experiencing in the more disadvantaged areas in our society.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to say a few words on the vocational education sector and to raise a few issues. This debate is timely. It is important to recognise the contribution of the vocational education sector to the development of the State. At a time when there was no free post-primary education, when students were segregated at the end of their primary education and many had to remain in the primary education sector until their mid-teens and even later because they could not afford post-primary education, the vocational education sector stepped into the breach and did an extraordinary job against all the odds on behalf of generations, particularly the very neglected generation of Irish young people of the 1930s and 1940s.

At that time also the vocational sector, the technical schools as they were then called, often received the pupils who were least academically progressed. Despite that and many other disadvantages they managed to establish themselves and make a vital contribution which has progressed through to third level with the development of the same philosophy in the institutes of technology and various other aspects of third level education.

Why did the Minister not take the opportunity to get rid of the title "vocational education"? I do not know what it means. I am not sure that I could set about defining education, but I do not know what vocational education means. I do not know what signal it is meant to give out. This is a post-primary or second level education sector and it would be better to call it that. Senator Costello's point that there is no reason there should be various sectors within a sector is an important one. This was an opportunity to grasp the nettle and simply refer to the sector as post-primary education or second level education. I am tempted to table an amendment to the Long Title of the Bill to examine that possibility. While there is nothing wrong with the Title there is nothing right with it, I believe it is being used to in some way segregate this aspect of post-primary education, and that should not be done.

On a minor related point, I am intrigued by the Minister's statement that a report published in 1927 led in 1930 to the first Vocational Education Act and that our vocational education sector could, therefore, be counted among the longest standing sectors in the State, predating even the Constitution and, by extension, this House. Primary education was established in the late 1830s or 1840s. My union has organised in the primary sector since 1868 and we set up the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland in 1913 or 1914 when we paid its rent. I am aware of post-primary legislation dealing with secondary education prior to the foundation of the State, not that that is important, it takes nothing from the Bill.

I want to deal seriously with the issue of regionalisation which was referred to by Senator Costello. The whole system has lost in the philosophical debate between various political parties on regionalisation. Fianna Fáil came to power absolutely opposed to regionalisation and the best argument it had for its opposition was that it was being proposed by the other parties. We should examine the issue in a much more practical way. As somebody who has a disinterested view on it, I said at the time of the introduction of that Act by the former Minister for Education, Niamh Breathneach, and again at the time the Education Act was introduced later by the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Martin, that it is not really a question of regionalisation or centralisation, it is a question of the need for local distribution of the resources in education. There was a very strong argument that the structure envisaged in the Labour Party Bill of some years ago on education and regionalisation was far too bureaucratic. On the other hand, it is wrong to say that it can be dealt with totally centrally. This Bill indicates that the delivery of a service at local level is the best way to deal with the sector.

Let me give a few indications of what the Minister might take from this Bill, why he might look to the broader development of education in the other sectors. What was most wrong with Niamh Breathnach's Bill was that it did not include third level or vocational education, not for educational reasons but for political reasons. If there was to be regional distribution or co-ordination of education, it should have applied to all three levels, and to adult education and pre-school or early childhood education. However, the political clout of the universities kept them out of it. Not only did it keep them out of it but when they got a Bill of their own the political clout of one of them, Trinity College Dublin, kept it out of that and it got a Bill of its own. The political clout of the vocational education committees kept them out of that sector because they were run by politicians, as many speakers said today. Everybody was guarding their own empire. I am not sure that education got a great hearing in all of that. That is a point we might keep in mind. The INTO is the only group in the educational sector which supported the idea of and indeed proposed that there should be public representation at local level in primary education. We proposed that on a number of occasions, particularly to the New Ireland Forum. That was the main place in 1984 to put something publicly on the record. It is good that there should be political representation in the delivery of education. That is not my issue here – decisions should be taken for educational rather than political reasons.

Let me give an example from the primary sector where there is no form of regionalisation and we are facing a big change in the delivery of the service. Until a number of years ago, at primary level and at secondary school level – that is, secondary schools as opposed to vocational schools – there was a very simple delivery of the service. The school was paid for teachers and that was more or less it. The vocational sector had a much better arrangement with all sorts of back-up services, to which I will return in a moment. We are facing into a series of problems at primary level which could be dealt with by addressing it in the same way as the vocational education committees did because nowadays, with the delivery of education to a whole variety of small primary schools dotted around every parish and half parish throughout the country, we need to be able to look after the needs at local level.

If one wants remediation in a two teacher school, one cannot appoint a remedial teacher. One has to have a shared service. In the delivery of caretaking, educational psychologists, secretarial services, cover for absent teachers and a substitution and supply service to small or even middle sized schools, it would best be done through some local administrative structure, not necessarily a huge structure. We could deliver at primary level a very good service based on the model of the vocational education committees. That is why the VEC has been so successful. We, in the secondary and primary school sectors, have looked across the wall at our vocational colleagues for 30 years, at well heated and decorated schools and at schools with good caretaking, secretarial and back-up services, which very often were not there in primary and secondary schools. We can learn that much from it. The real answer here is to look at the post primary sector and to deal with it as a sector.

I would prefer to see some sort of administrative arrangement which would look at all the educational needs of an area. Previously, I proposed that there should be one administrative structure for the delivery of education in Gaeltacht areas and that it would be done at pre-school, first, second and third levels. That would be hugely important.

I have reservations about the Bill – not about anything that is in it, but about what is not in it. We should look at this issue in a much wider context and we should force the politicians and others to take note of the educational needs in an area and to focus and build a structure on that basis. I welcome the Bill and will consider tabling an amendment to the Long Title on Committee Stage to change the word "vocational" to "secondary" or "post primary".

I thank Senators for their very stimulating contributions. We will have a robust debate on Committee Stage in view of the points raised.

A number of references were made by Senators on both sides to the Cromien report. On foot of that report, several important developments are under way to change the nature of the Department. These changes include the establishment of a special education council, an examinations agency and a regional structure to provide information and other services to local communities. I welcome the implementation of these recommendations which will address a number of weaknesses in the current education system and provide an enhanced service to schools, students and their parents. They are only some of the changes that are under way.

Senator Burke mentioned staff and industrial relations issues. Existing protections for teaching staff are set out in the Vocational Education Act, 1944. This is set out again in section 15 of the Bill. In addition, the Bill now places a clear duty on the chief executive officer of each VEC to manage all issues relating to the staff of the VEC. This will ensure that adequate appeal functions must be in place for all staff. The Bill does not prescribe specific procedures. These procedures will be developed by the chief executive officer in consultation with staff and their representative bodies. In the broader area of industrial relations, all staff unions and associations will continue to have access to the conciliation and arbitration scheme run by my Department as well as the service offered by the Labour Court and the Labour Relations Commission in respect of industrial relations disputes.

Senator Ormonde inquired about the timetable for the introduction of the legislation and about how the education plan might be aligned with the vocational education committees' present terms of office. It is intended that in the future the term of office of vocational education committees will be the same as those of local authorities. The education plan will also cover the same period. In regard to the commencement of the Bill, as the Senator will be aware, the legislation proposes some major changes to the vocational education committees and to the relationship between vocational education committees and the Department. In this context, it is the Minister's intention that his Department will work with vocational education committees to make the preparations to allow for the commencement of this Bill as soon as possible.

Senator Ormonde also raised the question of the appointment of staff. I share her concern that this should not be subject to inappropriate political influence. This Bill changes the previous position. It provides that, henceforth, it will be the responsibility of the chief executive officer to manage all personnel issues, including the appointment of staff. This function is classified as an executive function. This change will provide a protection to all current and future staff that appointment procedures will be established and operated in a fair and impartial manner – it will guarantee that.

I have noted Senator Quinn's point in regard to the size of some vocational education committees as opposed to others. The link with a county structure means that some vocational education committees are inevitably smaller than others. However, as the Senator pointed out, this Bill creates a new and stronger structure for VEC co-operation covering all aspects of their operation, even up to the purchase of property. This is a desirable approach. It ensures vocational education committees will continue to have close links with their communities – links that are long established and deeply valued. It also allows vocational education committees to co-operate to carry out their functions in the most effective manner.

Senator Costello raised the question of the involvement of local authorities in the VEC sector. Local authorities have been an integral part of the VEC sector since its establishment. Their involvement has been a critical success factor in the wider success of vocational education committees, bringing a genuine democratic input into the work of vocational education committees. As such, I consider it appropriate that this position be maintained. However, I should also point out that this Bill provides for the first time a guaranteed right of representation for parents and staff bringing the partners in education to the very centre of VEC decision making. I note what Senator Costello said but in my view – I have heard members of his party echo this view – it is wrong that all politicians be tainted because of the actions of a minority. However, one will not counter that incorrect perception of politics and politicians by feeding the cynicism and by more or less saying in legislation that we are all a bunch of gangsters who cannot be trusted to do anything.

In regard to what Senator Costello said about the boards of management, the structure for the establishment of boards of management in first and second level schools is set out in section 14 of the Education Act, 1998. That section provides that each school will have a board, the compo sition of which will be agreed by the patrons of schools, teacher representatives, national associations of parents and the Minister for Education and Science. Agreement has already been reached at primary level to establish such boards. I understand work is already under way in respect of community and comprehensive schools. I look forward to the establishment of boards in all first and second level schools. The structure set out in the Education Act, 1998, is designed to provide for such an outcome with the agreement of all the affected parties.

Again I thank Senators who have contributed and look forward to an interesting debate on Committee Stage. It is important that in a changing world, our institutions should also change, reflecting new emphases and ways of doing traditional tasks. This legislation seeks to provide that change for the VEC sector. I am happy to commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 3 July 2001.
Sitting suspended at 5.50 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.
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