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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Jul 2001

Vol. 167 No. 12

Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I have spent a good part of my life in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Indeed, my long apprenticeship for any of the more attractive posts in the political system resulted in that phrase meaning something more geographical than that I occupied a seat in the Dáil. I spent a lot of time in or around this building. Although I would not see the time I spent here before 1992 as a feature to be highlighted in recommending a political career to young people of ability and ambition, it gave me a valuable opportunity to discover that all wisdom was not in my party and that much could be gained from listening to ideas of others.

Political life means that, from time to time, I and several of my fellow parliamentarians are on different sides in matters of controversy. That is a fact of life. However, there are some matters where I believe a bipartisan approach should be adopted and one of these concerns the conditions under which and in which Senators and Deputies work in the interest of enhancing democracy and its institutions. For this reason, when it was decided to introduce a fundamental change, namely, the auditing of leaders' allowances, I sought the views and guidance of the individual parliamentary party leaders who had operated the system for some years and who alone had the detailed knowledge of how those allowances were spent and what items of expenditure were required to keep the operations of their parliamentary followers up to speed.

What this Bill proposes in relation to the audit is a distillation of these consultations. I deviated in no significant way on any item which they men tioned to me. Some Members may have noticed that in the other House there was some criticism of the arrangements which the Bill contains in relation to the proposed audit and to the levels of allowances. Like all Deputies, my political survival depends on retaining the support of a certain proportion of the electorate in a multi-member constituency. Members are hyper-aware that there is no such thing as a safe seat and we may as a group be particularly sensitive to any perceived or imagined advantage that the system might give to one of our rivals over us. Some party Deputies implied that Independent Members, who receive the average amount paid in respect of all members of parliamentary parties, had in effect a war chest for the next election.

This House has a long tradition of active Independent Members whose contribution to its operation has been, to say the least, significant. Down the years, there has been the fullest acceptance of the right of non-party Members to have the same benefits as those who represent political parties. That is as it should be and, I suspect, may be due to the absence of geographical constituencies for Seanad Members. I would be surprised if any denunciation was heard here today of an arrangement which gave non-party Members of this House the same allowance as Senators generally.

Senators have been, since the foundation of the State, a valuable resource, particularly in terms of unusual expertise for the parliamentary parties to which they belong and for the nation. For most decades during which leaders' allowances were paid, the Seanad did not formally come into the picture. When my predecessor changed the method by which the leaders' allowance was paid by calculating it on the basis of representative strength, only Members of the Dáil were taken into account.

What I propose in this Bill is a clear recognition that Members of this House are an acknowledged element of the parliamentary party membership whose needs fall to be met from that allowance and, as in the Dáil in recent years, the Independents will have funds available to them to sustain their parliamentary activity. It is probably unnecessary to emphasise this – I must because it has been at times lost sight of – but these allowances in the House cannot be expended on electoral activities.

The Bill deals with three aspects of the payments made to leaders of parliamentary parties, how they are computed, how they are audited and how they are adjusted following a merger of parliamentary parties. I propose to deal with each of them but not in the order in which they occur in the Bill. These allowances have been with us in one shape or other since 1938, subject to two major qualifications in the interim. The allowance was specified as being for parliamentary purposes, including research, and, following the McKenna judgment, prohibited for use for electoral purposes. These remain the parameters for the use of the allowance and when this legislation was first mooted the representatives of all parties I consulted initially felt it should be left as it was.

Effectively, what they told me was that we all know what parliamentary purposes mean and, if there had been any confusion about it years ago, it has long since been clarified through public discussion. Equally, breaching the ban on electoral use of the allowances carries such a practical risk of a result being challenged by a disappointed candidate that only a party leader with pronounced kamikaze tendencies would even contemplate it.

These, I accept, are not unreasonable ways of looking at things. However, it is equally valid to say that the propriety of this particular public expenditure is currently self-policed and that it is appropriate that normal audit procedures should be put in place to correct this. The Bill provides that each leader will be required to prepare a statement of his or her expenditure, have it audited by a public auditor, not an employee of any State institution, and submit it with that auditor's report to the Public Offices Commission.

Section 1(11) of the Bill sets out where the responsibility to carry out these obligations rests when a leader dies or resigns before he or she has complied with them. Its sanction for non-compliance is simple, fail to deliver and the cash-flow dries up until you do. The documentation comes to the commission for its consideration. It may seek from a leader some clarification and then report to the Minister for Finance, telling him or her whether the leader's statement and auditor's report came within the time specified, are adequate or inappropriate, or disclose expenditure which does not comply with the requirements of the relevant subsection. The commission's report is laid before the Oireachtas and the commission must retain in its office for three years the leader's statement and auditor's report, freely accessible to the public. These arrangements are broadly in line with the arrangements applying to party funds provided under the Electoral Act.

A further criticism was that "parliamentary activities" could mean everything or nothing. I want a system which will stand the test of time, and none who joined this house in 1977, or others who came earlier, would have won a prize for predicting the items of expenditure which would feature regularly in a parliamentary party's statement of expenditure. What I have done, after serious consultations with all party leaders, is set out a list of what we regard as proper categories on which a leader's allowance could be spent. However, the subsection which lists these items states that parliamentary activity includes them. This clearly signals that the list is intended to be a snapshot of what the party leaders collectively have seen in recent years, and now see, as activities and items that have to be financed from that allowance. All in this House appreciate that equally legitimate categories which we have not thought of may arise in the future, and they can be added to the list eventually if they come to be a regular feature.

The second new element in this Bill is to take account of mergers between parliamentary parties when fixing allowances. Where it was relevant since 1938, no account was taken in fixing leaders' allowances of accretions his or her party acquired in this House during the life of a Dáil by defection from another party or the conversion of an Independent. This seemed reasonable – the electorate had provided votes which elected a member on the basis of the badge he wore at a general election or by-election and they were entitled to expect their party to enjoy that Deputy's support in the voting lobbies and financially. Deputy Quinn, when radically altering the basis of payment in 1996, held firmly to this position. The money stayed where the Deputy started and did not go where he or she moved, whether it was to another party or to non-party status. Most thought that reasonable.

Mergers or takeovers of smaller parties have not been unknown since the Oireachtas was established. In the 1920s and 1930s, what is now Fine Gael merged with several parties and the Labour Party did likewise in the 1940s and later. None of these exercises had implications for the leaders' allowance either because it did not exist or because the legal provisions then in place did not affect it.

The merger during the life of this Dáil of Labour and Democratic Left was different. Both had leaders who were paid on the basis of the Dáil strength of their parties. When the merger took place, Democratic Left's leadership ceased and Labour's was unaffected. This was because Deputy Quinn's Act of 1996 provided that the leaders' allowance was based on the number of Deputies elected as "members of that party at the previous general election or at a subsequent by-election". The Deputies involved felt hard done by. This was not a political smash and grab where a party captured a discontented member of a rival party or led a lonely Independent astray, this was a different matter entirely where two parties with a long-standing ideological affinity decided that they were, after all, compatible and both parliamentary parties and their members at large decided democratically that they would together become the Labour Party. I accept the Labour Party approach and agree that the same facility should be available to any party where all the Dáil and Seanad Members agree to merge in the future. I propose, however, to retain otherwise the arrangements where a defection would not cost funds to the parliamentary party to which the Member had belonged at election time, and would not travel to another party or direct to him or her in the case of opting for non-party status.

The rates of allowances which the Government believes should be paid to parliamentary parties of varying strength are set out in the first part of the Bill. In this we are following, with some adjustment, the approach taken by my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, when he decided to rad icalise the leaders' allowance system by removing the requirement that a party had to have seven Deputies elected before it received a share of the cash allocated to parliamentary parties and by extending the allowances to the Independents. As already stated, the adjustments we are making take account for the first time that Senators are members of various parliamentary parties and make demands, as Deputies do, on the services and facilities which a parliamentary party has to provide to all its members. These demands have been greater in recent years as the Seanad made greater use of specialised committees and as Senators took part with their colleagues from this House in the proceedings of joint committees, some of which have proved to impose heavy and contentious burdens.

The sums the Bill will provide on their account are, like those for Dáil Members, tapered but only involve two rates for parties and one for Independents because the Seanad is smaller. Those sums are lower than is generally the case for Deputies because, while the obligations on Members of both Houses are similar, the difference in rates is a recognition of the wider functions conferred on Deputies.

The second change we wish to make is in the tapering system as it applies to the Dáil. The existing four categories are being reduced to three. In 1996 Deputy Quinn took the view, not unreasonably, that the rates should be skewed in favour of the smaller parties on the grounds that a party with five or fewer Members had to keep the party flag flying on several issues with consequently a higher necessary spend per Member than a larger party or a non-party Member. I would not want to send that view down in flames, but there has been a belief in the House, at least from early in the life of the current Dáil, that larger parties had fared less than fairly under the scheme and the same would be true in the future for parties with between five and ten Dáil Members. What the new dispensation would involve is treating the first ten Dáil Members in the same way as the first five are treated at present and the next 20 in the way the next five – namely, Nos. 6 to 10 – were treated under the existing scheme. The remainder, including parties with more than 60 members, will receive the rate currently paid to Members Nos. 11 to 60. I commend the Bill to the House.

I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill, the principal feature of which is the revised payment of annual allowances to parliamentary leaders of qualifying parties. I appreciate the substantial increase in the parliamentary allowance paid to leaders of political parties and I am pleased to note that the number of Senators in a political party will be taken into account for the first time when its leader's allowance is being calculated. This is an acknowledgement of the increasing role Senators are playing in the parliamentary system, particularly in terms of their par ticipation in the joint committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

One of the main features of the Bill is that parliamentary leaders will now be required to prepare a statement of their expenditure, have it audited and submit it with an audited report to the Public Offices Commission. The leaders' allowance has very much been in the public domain in recent years and if the procedure proposed in the Bill had been in place in the past, we would not have experienced the difficulties such as those which have arisen in relation to the allowance. I note that a Member of the Seanad who is not a member of a qualifying party will receive an allowance in connection with his or her parliamentary activities of £12,500 per year. It would appear there is no responsibility on them to provide an audited account in respect of this money and they can dispose of it as they wish. Will the Minister explain why an audited account is not required from each Member who receives such funding?

As the Minister stated, there are some measures in the Bill which provide for taking account of mergers between political parties. The 1996 Act provides that the leaders' allowance is based on a number of Deputies elected as members of a party at the previous election. When two political parties merged recently there was no benefit to them in relation to the leaders' allowance and that is being changed under the Bill. I welcome that development.

While I welcome the increase in public funding for political parties, nevertheless, the time will come in the near future when we must ban corporate funding for political parties. When contributing to yesterday's debate on the Standards in Public Office Bill, I stated that the vast majority of members of the public are cynical about politics and politicians. We must restore the confidence of the public, particularly that of young people, in the political system and this can best be done by banishing the influence of business, particularly big business, from politics. This will require the elimination of corporate funding.

One of the greatest needs of this House is a support service for Senators. There are simply no research facilities available to Senators who are obliged to speak on different Bills in this House each week. I am sure Government spokespersons receive a degree of assistance from the offices of the relevant Ministers, but when one is in Opposition one is on one's own. The only assistance I receive is that provided by the staff of the Oireachtas Library, for which I am extremely grateful, and also that provided by my secretary, whose services I share with two other Members. This week alone we will have dealt with the Dormant Accounts Bill, the Standards in Public Office Bill, the Oireachtas (Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) (Amendment) Bill and the Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial Offices and Oireachtas Members (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. If I had access to some research facilities, my contributions on these Bills would be more meaningful. I do not believe it would be necessary for each Member of the Seanad to have a research assistant. There should be a central research facility for Seanad Members which, possibly, could be located in the Library, to the staff of which a number of research assistants could be added.

I understand the Minister stated in the Lower House that he is in favour of a secretarial allowance being made available to former Taoisigh.

That is correct.

I welcome this development. I had a personal relationship with a former Taoiseach and I am aware that former Taoisigh receive and are obliged to reply to a raft of correspondence. I applaud the introduction of this facility, which former Taoisigh well deserve.

The Minister's party was first to introduce a leaders' allowance in 1938, which must have been a brave decision to take at that stage.

As I stated in the other House, Seán McEntee was very unpopular among supporters and followers of his own party for so doing.

I can well believe it. I acknowledge that he made his decision in the spirit of parliamentary democracy. I knew Mr. McEntee, who represented the constituency of Dublin South-East. In introducing the Bill, the Minister is endorsing the enlightened decision of former members of his party and for that reason I welcome it.

I welcome the introduction of the Bill, which represents an important step forward. The Minister is granting to the Members of this House a recognition and level of status that has been denied them since the foundation of the State. It is appropriate that Members of the House should be taken into consideration in the calculation of the moneys to be paid out under the leaders' allowance system.

During the term of office of the current Dáil and Seanad, an enormous amount of legislation has been dealt with, which goes a long way towards reassuring the public and putting in place structures, safeguards and checks and balances which will ensure that moneys distributed through the parliamentary system can be audited in a transparent manner. We now have strict legal regulations in standards in public office, electoral and ethics legislation. These are attempts by the Oireachtas to turn over a new leaf in the conduct of public representation and service at all levels. It is important that there is transparency and checks and balances. The Minister's legislation addresses an issue that received attention and criticism in recent years. In response to public demands, the legislation provides for the required safeguards and transparency and I compliment the Minister on the manner in which he has addressed the issue.

Public representation extends beyond the parameters that we knew a decade or more ago. Today, it is impossible to run a politician's affairs with one secretary and an office. Members of this House must share a secretary. The level of business conducted in the House, and by Members in their constituencies, is high. The question of the support we get should, therefore, be addressed. It is important that an individual or collective research facility is available to Members. It is almost impossible for a person to fulfil his or her potential without a constituency office. If it was not for my wife running mine, I would not be able to operate as a politician. I read in the newspapers, and find it extraordinary, that expenses for an office amount to £4,000 plus £1,000 for telephone charges. There is no recompense or salary for the person involved. If we are to operate to our full capacity, this issue must be addressed. To provide the services which the public demands and we believe we should give a research facility and secretarial assistance are required.

In the past there was criticism of the use to which the leaders' allowance was put. The necessary checks and balances were not in place. A party must run its business in respect of which the leaders' allowance is necessary. I accept Senator Doyle's point that, in future, all political activity may have to be funded from taxes. Under law, funding for parliamentary parties is limited. Corporate funding to a party is capped at £5,000 and to an individual at £2,000. Parties will, therefore, have to seek funding from the Oireachtas. Some would regard this as good, but it was not possible in the past because of the tight finances of different Governments, in which Ministers for Finance were under pressure to fund other public services. We can, however, revisit the subject again. It would not be good to exclude the public from the political system. People should have an opportunity, even through limited funding from businesses, to support the democratic system in respect of which the financial limits are clearly set down in legislation.

I compliment the Minister on this welcome Bill. The public will undoubtedly see it as a genuine response to concern and criticism. The Minister has also taken other bold steps to bring political life to a new, transparent era in which the public will recognise that there is nothing hidden or underhand in the political system. I commend the Bill to the House.

I am delighted to make even a short contribution on this Bill. I welcome the Minister and compliment him on always recognising the difficulties that Members of the Oireachtas face and that the rates of pay, at every level, are modest. He has courageously tackled this problem. There is no media kudos for defending Members' rights and ensuring they are well paid. Members need a level of remuneration commensurate with the important work that they do. In the last five years working conditions have improved. Nearly everyone now has a separate, comfortable office, for example.

I have been here since 1981 and have been a Member of both Houses from time to time during that 20 years. The conditions that existed when I entered as a Deputy in 1981 were quite appalling now that we can look back at them and there were few improvements during the 1980s. They were stringent times but it was not as if improvements would have cost a lot. Few Ministers for Finance had the bottle to face the media criticism that would have resulted from improving conditions here. Stories abounded about the depth of the pile of the carpet etc. and the appetite for that sort of nonsense discouraged improvements.

I welcome the Bill. It is a pity it comes against the background of a need for transparency about leaders' allowances because of revelations of irregularity at a tribunal of inquiry in relation to the expenditure of one leader's allowance. Allowances made to leaders of political parties will now be strictly controlled by audit. All expenditure must be justified and I welcome that necessary part of the legislation. I welcome the fact that independent Members of the Dáil can get in the region of £20,000 per year and Independent Members of the Seanad can get £12,500 per year. They need that kind of back-up. I am unhappy, however, with the fact that these moneys are not subject to audit. That is not right.

This morning I listened on a news programme to a debate which was not very edifying. One Member of the other House, who would be in receipt of such an allowance, did not do much to engender public confidence in how such an allowance might be spent. If a Member of either House receives an allowance as back-up for research etc. he or she should be able to show clearly that it was spent on these services. We all know the need for back-up to provide the great depth of service we require in the House. When there is a debate on legislation we need background information, which an ordinary Member or backbencher in either House is unlikely to be able to get.

I sat on the Government side in the other House and I certainly never found any back-up. If I wanted to say something on legislation I had to do my own reading and rooting in the Library or search the Internet in amateur fashion. There is a great need for proper research assistance to Members of both Houses. If we are to contribute in an informed and intelligent way on complicated legislation and want to read up on the background or to raise points not dealt with in the Bill but related to the matter under discussion we need research experts who can provide information at short notice. That is very important.

Senator Finneran made a point in relation to the secretarial assistance available to Members of this House. Generally speaking we operate on the basis of one secretary for two Members. I have a job sharing arrangement whereby my secretary is based in what used to be my TD constituency office in my home. That position is shared with another Member of this House in another location in the west and it works well. I am now informed by my party administrator that my secretary has been told by the Department of Finance that what we are doing is not right. The McKenna judgment is cited to claim that by having a secretary located in my constituency I have an unfair advantage over other Members. That is a vague excuse made by the Minister's Department and I do not understand how it can be justified.

There is nothing vague about the McKenna judgment.

I know, but the McKenna judgment should not be drawn into this case. It was not just my case as mine was settled in the sense that I operate with a secretary who is not based in Leinster House. Members of this House felt that, like Deputies, if they could make a job sharing arrangement with another Member of the Seanad they could have a secretary based at home or in what we would call a constituency office. In other words they could have their secretary otherwise than in Leinster House if it suited them and was by agreement. I have proposed an amendment to that effect and I hope it will be accepted. It is the only amendment to this legislation and I hope it will not be ruled out of order because it involves a charge. I look forward to a proper debate on it on Committee Stage.

The excuse made by the Department of Finance is that this cannot happen for Senators because of implications arising from the McKenna judgment. What do we say then to Deputies who have a secretary located in their constituency? What advantage have they over Deputies or Senators whose secretaries are based in Leinster House? I certainly need this explained and on Committee Stage I hope to read at least what was written to the administrator from the personnel section, which originated as advice from the Department of Finance.

I compliment the Minister on bringing this legislation forward. It involves not just the necessary reform to ensure transparency and proper auditing of leaders' allowances but other reforms as well. I compliment the Minister on the fact that he is never afraid to stand up for the rights of Members of these Houses. Too many of the Minister's predecessors were too sensitive to short-term media criticism. People working here are entitled to the standard of working conditions that the law provides for. The law was often broken here in the working conditions imposed on Members and the staff working with them. The law was broken in terms of overcrowding, while safety regulations for equipment were ignored. There has been enormous improvement in that area and it is not a backhanded compliment to the Minister to say that he is responsible for that improvement.

I welcome the Minister to the House. No other Minister for Finance in the history of the State has made such radical changes in relation to all the issues in the Bill and those discussed by Members earlier. Unfortunately, some issues remain to be addressed and Senator Connor raised one in particular.

The Bill relates to the leaders' allowance under the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Act, 1938, when it was originally introduced by Seán McEntee, and also to other more recent Acts, particularly those of 1996 and 1998, which indicated amounts paid should be dependent on the number of Dáil Deputies elected by a party at previous general or subsequent elections. The Minister has extended that now to Senators.

The main thrust of the Bill provides for three items. It provides an arrangement for the mandatory audit of the expenditure from leaders' allowances, the need for which is evident from recent tribunals, in order to enable more transparency and accountability to the public. The Bill also provides for arrangements for the calculation of payments to party leaders and non-party Members of the Oireachtas.

Although the Minister has clarified the allowances paid to non-party Members and the so-called leaders of their own parties, I will refer to the issue again. In recent years, parties have been dissolved and their Members have joined other parties and this Bill provides for such circumstances.

The amounts payable to each Member have been revised and I am glad Senators have been included in such calculations. The Minister has shown appreciation of the work of Senators, particularly the large amount of high-profile work the Leader of the House has attempted to pursue. There is no reason Senators should not be provided for in this Bill as we are as active in the parliamentary party as Deputies. The allowance given to the leader of a party should reflect the party's number of Senators. Certain services are expected from parties and some services are provided by Senators. I accept the one third reduction in allowances for parties in Government, as services are available through the offices of the Ministers. The Bill restricts the use of such funds in election and referendum campaigns.

It has been alleged in this House and in tribunals that certain funds have been abused in the past, but audits will now be carried out to ensure they are properly used. We are aware of only one case of possible misuse of funds. Without interfering in the affairs of former party leaders, the past misuse of party funds has not yet come to light. This legislative change providing for audits will ensure that Members are treated equally.

I am a little baffled by the section of the Bill which decrees that statements must be presented to the Public Offices Commission within 120 days of the end of the financial year. The only penalty, as far as I am aware, is that further funding will be withheld should such a statement not be fur nished. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the penalties to be imposed if misuse is discovered during an audit. It is right that statements should be made available to Members of the Oireachtas and to the public.

As Senator Joe Doyle stated, many financial Bills have come to the House in recent days, which has meant that I have not had the chance to read this Bill in detail. There should be separate bank accounts for leaders' allowances and nothing other than moneys from such allowances should be lodged in these accounts. The leader's allowance is not a salary and it will be tax-free. It has been self-regulatory heretofore, but the audit procedure to be put in place will restore the confidence eroded by the media's presentation of recent events.

Senators should be included in the calculation of the allowance. I do not understand why a party with 70 or 100 Members should receive the same amount per Member as a party with only 20 Members, although I understand it predates this Bill and has been refined by the Minister. The bigger the party, the bigger the demands made on its leader and on the services provided through his offices.

The Minister stated earlier that he did not think there would be any objections to allowances being given to non-party Members. It is easy for the Minister to make such a claim as he has a safe seat in Kildare North.

There is no such thing as a safe seat.

If the Minister for Finance was based in Donegal where there are two Independent Deputies, he might look on the matter in a different light. I do not begrudge the allowance to Deputies Gildea and Blaney, but ordinary Members have no access to their party leader's account.

As Senator Connor argued, the level of research and press services given to Senators from their parties is debatable. As a Senator, I receive neither the constituency travel allowance given to Deputies nor the £22,000 allowance given to Independent Deputies. I perform and am expected to perform in the same way as any Member of the Upper House.

My schedule has been tough in the last few days. As Senator Joe Doyle explained, there have many financial Bills in this House and one cannot contribute very much when one does not have time or any back-up assistance. All one can do is deal with the edges of issues.

Apart from the financial Bills, I must also speak on a marine Bill later today. Last night, I received the devastating news of the loss of 85 jobs in the only factory in the Ballybofey area and I had to deal with that as well as my usual constituency work. I have seen my family for three hours in the past fortnight and I will not get home this weekend as I have to go to a conference in Carlow. I am expected to do the work I have mentioned on a Senator's salary, although I appreciate the advances made by the Minister in that regard. If I were to employ a secretary in Donegal out of my own pocket, I would be coming to this House for no financial reward.

Every GAA club in Donegal will hold a golf classic this summer and I will be the first person they come to. If someone wants to place an advertisement for a festival in a local newspaper, Independent Members can help them from their parliamentary allowance, but I cannot contribute from similar funds. After expenses have been dealt with, I might be in Dublin without any salary. It is not that I begrudge it to the Independents, but I wonder if the playing field is even. Years ago, Senators did not operate in the same manner as Deputies, but that day is gone as most of us work as hard as our colleagues in the other House.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I hate to interrupt the Senator's tale of woe, but he has only one minute left.

I am trying to make my point to the Minister. I know that another Senator glanced at the Minister, Deputy McCreevy, when the provision of secretarial services for ex-taoisigh was discussed. All of our ex-taoisigh have, in one way or another, been excellent ambassadors and great statesmen. There are more ex-taoisigh than ever as a result of the rapid changeover in the 1990s. They represent this country on the international stage on occasions and it is right that they should have some back-up and that everything should not be taken from them.

The only gripe I have with this Bill is that ordinary Members of the Oireachtas do not receive equality compared to Independents. Front Bench spokespersons in this House, and such spokespersons in the other House who are not in Government, have to conduct research.

What penalties will be imposed if an audit exposes discrepancies in financial matters?

Members will not receive money.

It will be the ultimate sanction.

Mr. Ryan

He may not believe it, but I have great affection and respect for the Minister for Finance, although I disagree with him more than with any Minister for Finance in the past 20 years.

That is because the Senator comes from a very good political family originally from Athy, County Kildare. The Senator's political allegiance is well known.

Mr. Ryan

The expertise in the Fianna Fáil Party on my genealogy is one of life's best entertainments. I was quite taken by Senator Connor's comments on conditions when he first arrived in the House. I always remember my first week. I was the first Oireachtas Member to make a maiden speech without a tie, long before Deputy Gregory, but the then Cathaoirleach and Clerk of the Seanad dealt with me very firmly and that did not last long as I learned the rules of the House. However, I recall being told how I could make a telephone call. I was given the key of a cupboard in room LG5 in Kildare House in which the telephone was locked. I was told I could take the telephone out, plug it into the wall and make a call on condition that I locked it back in the cupboard when I was finished because of the possibility of people using it for other purposes.

An appalling vista. That is correct.

Mr. Ryan

The Seanad was a leisurely operation at that time. I was short of things to do on many a Wednesday when the House sat and in those days I was more au fait with the cultural life of Dublin. The work of Members of this House has been transformed. When I returned to the House in 1997, following my unfortunate accident with the electorate in 1993, the work had been further transformed. It is a demanding House now, particularly for those who are members of political parties. The Minister used a wonderful phrase, “someone who led a lonely Independent astray”—

I did not have anyone in mind but the Senator is welcome to own up.

Mr. Ryan

The Labour Party did not lead me astray. I am quite enjoying myself. I am a little intrigued by my own position because I suspect I am still in receipt of the allowance I obtained when I was elected as an Independent in August 1997. I have absolutely no idea whether that is the case.

I am fortunate in that I am involved in another activity but it is difficult to reconcile that work with membership of the House, hence my regular absences from it. I sympathise with other Members. I am glad I am not a member of a Government party because it would be impossible to be a Member of the House and maintain any level of serious activity outside it as it is hugely demanding.

Members of both House do significant work at committees which is ignored by the 60 members of the press accredited to Leinster House and who would have great difficulty locating the committee rooms, not to mention understanding the serious and important work done in them. The Minister will be aware of the diligent work done, say, on a Finance Bill by both Government and Opposition Members as they debate it in painful but extremely important detail away from the glare of publicity. Nowadays such legislation is usually taken without the succession of guillotines that were unfortunately necessary when Committee Stages were taken in the Dáil. However, committee work is important and time consuming.

I do not have to undertake constituency work, though circumstances may dictate that will change soon but Members of both Houses must do so and the volume of work is expanding. I have one problem with the legislation to which I do not have a solution. I used to make cheapskate comments when I was first elected to the House in 1981 about the money Senators earned. I made an unfortunate comment about dividing the salary of a Senator by the number of days the House sat and arrived at a sum of £450 per day. This was used to embarrass the families of Members by teachers who should have known better.

I decided as a result that people who were fortunate enough, like myself, to be in affluent circumstances should not make political points regarding the earnings of Members. Since 1982 I have always solidly supported the rights of Members of both Houses to be properly paid. However, all remuneration should be transparent and in this regard we have some way to go, for instance, in regard to many allowances, which should be verifiably used for what they are intended without swamping Members with paperwork.

The Minister made a sensible and correct decision when he simplified the procedures for claiming travelling expenses to the House as he recognised reality. However, it would be simpler to ask Members to select a base and inform them that they will be paid a specific sum for travel and they would have to verify any travel outside of this. Members deserve to be supported in their work but opportunities should not be created for them to stash away money for one purpose or another.

That is one of the reasons I am a little unhappy some allowances will not have to be verified, particularly those paid to Independents. I do not criticise Independent Members. I never had an ideological objection to party politics, unlike some of my former Independent colleagues. They make a major contribution to the work of the House and make it a livelier place that it might be otherwise. That is as it should be. If money is to be made available to Members for certain purposes, it is tautological that the public should be satisfied that the money is used for what it was intended and not to pay for an expensive family holiday abroad. We should be accountable.

Senator Bonner said parliamentary supports are limited and if he pays his secretary from his parliamentary allowance, he will be in breach of the McKenna judgment. That judgment related to referenda and I have read it a number of times. I am concerned that people are reading things into it. The judgment outlined the position regarding the Executive seeking to use taxpayers' money to influence the view of taxpayers about the fundamental law of the State. The Constitution regulates the relationship between the State and the citizen and is in place for the fundamental protection of the citizen. It is, therefore, in a particular way, sacrosanct.

I am not persuaded the judgment has many of the ramifications people believe. I would have taken the case rather than Patricia McKenna if I had not been advised that I might lose my house among other things if I lost the case. At the time Patricia did not own a house. She owned a bicycle and had no job. She was, therefore, a much more appropriate person to take the risk involved.

If Senator Bonner's interpretation is correct, will the Minister explain how it is compatible with the judgment to have large numbers of civil servants doing the constituency work of Ministers? This is not unique to the current Government as the practice has been ongoing for years. How can established civil servants doing the constituency work of a Minister be consistent with the McKenna judgment? For example, Senator Connor cannot use an Oireachtas funded secretary to do his constituency work.

Neither Senator Connor nor Senator Ryan represents a single constituency. Senator Ryan does not represent Cork North-Central or Cork South-Central and Senator Connor does not represent Longford-Roscommon in Seanad Éireann. If the Senators were elected to the other House, they would represent a single constituency. However, as Senators, they are not elected to represent constituencies. Much as I like my colleague, Senator Bonner, he does not legally represent Donegal South-West.

My amendment does not refer to a constituency.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will have ample opportunity to discuss his amendment when we get to it. Senator Ryan to continue without interruption.

Mr. Ryan

The Minister made a valid point. I do not want to start the dialogue again because I know you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, will get cross with me and nothing in life would make me more nervous than the sight of the Leas-Chathaoirleach being cross with me. The most agreeable of men getting cross with me would be difficult to accept.

The McKenna judgment did not say anything about constituencies as it dealt with referenda. One cannot make a distinction between a Member of the other House using an Oireachtas allowance to do certain work in his or her geographical constituency and a Seanad Member doing work in a geographical area on behalf of people who are citizens of this country and say it is incompatible with the McKenna judgment. I did not read that in the McKenna judgment. There are interpretations being put on it.

I would not pay too much heed to the Attorney General on these matters. He is a man of strong opinions, which is one of the things he has in common with the Minister for Finance, and it is always worth listening to them. It is always wonderful to debate and argue with him and I am sure he has done so with the Minister for Finance. I would be surprised if he has not. However, I would not let him be the final authority on these matters. I would go beyond that.

The McKenna judgment does not mean what is suggested. I do not understand how it could make a distinction between civil servants who work in the Minister for Finance's office to look after the citizens of north Kildare, a common practice not confined to the Minister, and Senator Connor who tries to look after the citizens of County Roscommon. I am at a loss as to how that can be the case.

I welcome the basic principles of this Bill. Politics is important. Whether I like the Government or not – it is not difficult to figure out which of those is the case – the only way society can be changed for better or worse in a democratic society is through politics. People can write about it as journalists or academics and it is interesting, important and part of the contribution to debate. However, the job of taking the ideas of others and making them concrete in law, taxation and every other way is that of politics. It is, therefore, something which should be cherished in our society. There is an enormous amount of nonsense written about politics. Politicians are the only sector of society who must, by definition, compromise in public because we operate in the public glare. Others in many professions, including journalism, compromise in private and are able to throw up a barrage of defences about the freedom of the press to explain their compromises. Politicians are the only ones who must explain their compromises in the cold glare of publicity. I am sure the Minister has made compromises in his time. Too much is written by too many about this issue.

I do not know anybody who got rich out of politics per se. I know people who got rich while they were in politics through the abuse of politics. The amount of money Members of the Oireachtas are paid, whether it is larger or smaller than it is now, will not be the determinant to whether anyone is rich. It will determine that people do not have a permanent worry about their family security and mean that people will not become nervous wrecks by the amount of work they must do to keep on top of their brief. It will mean that people who are members of committees will not feel they have to sacrifice their committee or constituency work to function as a Member of the Oireachtas. Whatever about our salaries, which is a separate issue, the type of funding provided to make people able to function adequately in a complex society in which instantaneous reactions are expected to every complex situation must be welcomed. It is not often I say it about the Minister, but I compliment him on it, without the usual hint of equivocation which comes at the end of my compliments.

Like Senator Ryan, I congratulate the Minister on the general thrust of the Bill. I am not an elected Member, but the parliamen tarians in this country are an easy target for cheap jibes. If we want a functioning democracy, we must pay the rate for the job and enable people to take part in politics as an honourable and noble profession without having to worry about whether they can look after their families better elsewhere.

One should not parade one's own crisis of conscience in public, but I have a small worry about this Bill. One interpretation suggests the Minister is trying to donate to me a substantial sum of public money for my parliamentary activities, which I would find difficult to justify or audit. I had the great honour of being nominated by the Taoiseach. I accepted it as an honour at the time and having been in this House and enjoyed the debates and the fellowship of colleagues on all sides. I appreciate it as a greater honour. At the time the Taoiseach did me the additional courtesy of allowing me to regard myself as an Independent, although I sit on this side of the House. This was partly a hangover of my period as a eunuch in the Civil Service for years before that and I thought it was improper for me to decastrate myself. I am so independent I am independent of the Independents on the other side of the House. There is something inherently wrong if I could by some means define myself as a one person party for the purpose of this Bill. I can solve the problem by not taking the money, but it struck me as a slight anomaly.

The Minister could help Members and the effective functioning of the House by putting more money into the Library and research facilities. I have had experience of other bodies where one could call on research assistants and ask the library staff to get a paper on the workings of legislation, for example. That would be an enormous resource for Members on all sides of the House and improve the quality of work in committees, etc. If the Minister could take from Members the burden of having to burn the midnight oil looking for sources, it would be a great help. I commend him on the Bill and wish him well in what he is doing.

I am pleased the Minister has chosen to stay with us during this debate. It is good that we are focusing on the role of politics, this House and the people in it and how we do and are supported in our job. As we move towards the future, we must encourage more people to become involved and offer them a chance to make a difference, contribute to the legislation and the running of the country.

As the Minister is a captive audience, I want to draw his attention to one of the greatest difficulties facing this House and the other House, namely, that if we want to attract more young people and parents, particularly women, into this profession, we must do something about the fact that we do not have an automatic entitlement to maternity leave. While I am aware that it is not related to this Bill or part of the Minister's remit, we need to consider it. Members of the Oireachtas who are pregnant are entitled to the statutory 14 weeks' maternity leave and while they are on leave, their vote should be registered in whichever way they so choose. I ask the Minister to consider that simple change. He said he enjoyed listening to ideas put forward by Members, and this is one idea I would ask him to take on board.

In relation to the parliamentary allowances, the leaders' allowances and the way we fund the Houses of the Oireachtas, it is vital that we ring-fence funding for the continuous training and development of Members of this House. It is not sufficient to provide allowances without ensuring that our parliamentarians, who effectively run the country, follow a programme of continuous development, education and training. I am aware the Minister is familiar with many organisations. The most progressive organisations are those which invest in their workers and put in place defined, formal schemes to ensure they are learning on a continuous basis.

On support services, while we have seen some changes in recent years we do not have sufficient technical resources available to us in either House of the Oireachtas. A Member may have one computer and choose to have it at home or carry a lap-top computer around with him or her. If Members have a lap-top that is linked to their office or home by an ISDN line, and when they come back to Dublin that PC cannot be linked to the network here and, therefore, it is useless to them.

The Department of Finance should seriously examine the area of data communications, modems, databases and other ways of ensuring that people have access to the type of information they seek.

Senator Connor has tabled an amendment for Committee Stage and it will be interesting to hear what is contained in that amendment, but I suggest to the Minister that the reason one may choose to have a research assistant based somewhere outside Dublin may not be to fulfil constituency requirements. I agree with the Minister that Senators do not have a constituency. That is not their role, but they have the choice to decide that it would be easier for them to do their research and administration work with the support of somebody at a location that suits them. That is the challenge. I ask the Minister to consider that concept. It is not about giving Senators constituency secretaries or research assistants, it is about providing them with research assistants and secretarial or administrative help in the location chosen by them. If I can operate just as effectively if not better in Galway than in Dublin because I have more facilities there, why should I not have the support that is most effective for me at the location where I find it easier to work? If I am in Dublin for two days a week because the Seanad is sitting on a Wednesday and Thursday, there is no reason my secretary-research assistant, whoever that might be, cannot be based outside Dublin. We do not need people sitting in offices around Leinster House. There is no advantage in that.

On the role of Senators in terms of legislation, one of the sad aspects of this House is that one is actually dependent on the integrity and strength of the Minister presenting legislation as to whether the views of this House are taken on board by the Department officials. Some Ministers are very good at listening to what we have to say—

Mr. Ryan

Hear, hear.

—but there are others who never listen, or do not appear to listen, and on occasions appear to be ruled by the officials in their Departments. That is sad. While I may not always agree with many of the ideas promoted by people on the Opposition benches, I recognise the validity and importance of them and we should be more open in that regard. That is what the legislative process and this House is about, listening to all the ideas put forward. I accept that some of them are off the wall but very often people on both sides of the House come up with ideas that should be taken on board but which are often dismissed because it may not suit the schedule of the Dáil, the Department or whatever. That is something I would like to change and perhaps it will be reflected in the change that will be brought about in terms of the role of the Seanad, parliamentary allowances etc. as a result of this legislation. I hope in the coming years we will see a greater involvement of the Seanad in the legislative process. It is easy to become complacent when a particular Government has a majority in the Seanad such as we have in this Government.

I ask the Minister to take these ideas on board. I am very serious about the maternity leave. I am equally serious about the ring-fenced funding for continuous training and development for all Members of the Oireachtas. If we invest in our parliamentarians, we strengthen our parliamentary system and that will make for a better society. I thank the Minister for coming into the House today. I hope he has listened to us and that he will accept some of our ideas.

I will not delay matters. I welcome the Minister to the House. The changes that are being made through the Bill are welcome. The support we need is beginning to be put in place. When I first came into this House, Mr. Hyland, MEP, then Deputy, Deputy Harney, now Tánaiste, and I shared an office with Mary White, our secretary, and the Taoiseach's constituency secretary. When one considers that the Taoiseach's constituency secretary had to share an office with three Senators, it is obvious that progress has been made.

There has been a sea change in terms of the workload of Senators. When I first became a Member, one could not attempt to run a business and do the work that was required here. It was impossible. There will be a change in the way the Seanad is made up in the future because people who are involved in business will be unable to be Members of this House and do their own work at the same time. The work of the House is becoming a full-time job and as such it has to be adequately remunerated. I have seen business people elected to this House – I was one of them – who neglected their businesses and politics. In other words, they worked half and half in both jobs, but there is no place for that type of organisation in today's world.

If we are to attract people into the Houses of the Oireachtas in the future, with all the opportunities that exist in the outside world, where will we get people of value when the maximum salary is paid on the first day one is elected? There is no incremental salary scale. An attempt is being made to have an incremental type of salary increase by virtue of long service, but there is no incremental benefit to one's service here. In any other profession or job, there is a value in service. How can we expect somebody who has had all the opportunities of education etc. to come into this House? The Government has made great progress in ensuring that those who want a job get a job, those who emigrate do so by choice and those who emigrated in the past immigrate by choice. If politics is to continue to play a part, we must be able to attract people who are willing to consider legislation, sit on committees and be full-time Members of the Oireachtas.

The Bill makes important changes which acknowledge services rendered in that a small long-service increment is being made available. The Bill also removes the anomaly whereby Members pay 6% of their salaries into a pension fund from which they derive no benefit as the maximum allowance is paid after 20 years' service. I am delighted the Bill acknowledges that we were topping-up a pension scheme from which we received no benefit and I thank the Minister for realising the necessity for such a change.

The changes regarding payments to party leaders and office holders were overdue. There is now an acknowledgement that the work of the Leader, the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirleach and office holders is becoming more difficult.

The Senator's comments are more relevant to the Ministerial, Parliamentary, Judicial Offices and Oireachtas Members (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

Senators have been rambling between the two Bills so I decided to do likewise. Your forbearance, a Chathaoirligh, is gratifying as usual. This Bill is important to Members of both Houses and I thank the Minister for these measures.

I thank Senators for their general welcome for this legislation. The titles of the two Bills are somewhat confusing. One would think one Bill concerned the area covered by the other, and vice versa. These titles were decided upon by the parliamentary counsel, not the Department of Finance. This Bill was known in my Department as the audit of parliamentary leaders' allowances as that issue was its genesis. The other Bill concerns the pensions of Oireachtas Members and other matters.

Senator Connor has tabled an amendment regarding secretaries, an issue to which Senator Bonner also referred. During Senator Ryan's contribution, I made the general point that Senators are not elected for particular constituencies. I wish to outline how I will address the problem of resourcing the Oireachtas.

In the 1996 Act, my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, decided that the party leaders' allowance would be based on the number of Deputies. The change in this Bill is that the allowance will now also take account of the number of Senators. The rates and ratios are also being increased so political parties will receive more money.

In 1996, Deputy Quinn decided that it would be fair to also give money to Independent Deputies. The amount given to such Deputies is, roughly, the average of the sum given to parties divided by the number of Deputies. As a result, Independent Deputies receive about £11,000, but this figure will be increased to £22,000. However, these allowances must be used for parliamentary purposes.

There was some debate in the Dáil as to whether these allowances should be audited. For nine months I have been meeting the leaders of political parties, including the smaller parties. In the case of Fine Gael, Deputy John Bruton was leader at the start of this process, but Deputy Noonan is now leader. Experts looked at the proposals and suggested refinements. No one referred to an audit of the amount given to Independent Deputies until Deputy Mitchell raised the issue last week. There is a significant difference between giving approximately £1.5 million to the major political parties, over £800,000 to the Labour Party and £22,000 to Independent Deputies. However, I stress this money must be used for parliamentary purposes.

I wish to deal with the issue of the resourcing of secretarial assistants, a matter which could also be raised under the next Bill. One of the recommendations of the inquiry by the sub-committee of the Committee of Public Accounts was for the establishment of an Oireachtas commission. The report also highlighted other issues. I am proceeding with the establishment of an Oireachtas commission. The heads of the Bill will be drafted, sent to the parliamentary counsel and I hope they will be included in a formal Bill by the end of the year.

The process will be simple. At present the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas is given a Vote every year and various matters must be dealt with. The office has an Accounting Officer and there is ongoing communication with the Department of Finance. However, there are always rows and at the end of the year I receive representations from sub-committee meetings by my good colleague, Deputy Killeen, concerning various matters.

Under my proposals the Oireachtas will be administered by the Oireachtas commission. The majority of members of the commission will be parliamentarians. The commission will also include a representative of the Minister for Finance, the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad, and, presumably, the Clerk of the Dáil will be the Accounting Officer. The commission will receive an allocation of money with which it can do what it likes.

Rather than annoying me or my successor as to what should be done, the commission will make these decisions and have all the hassle of how to address these great problems. The interesting question is how to arrive at the initial allocation. On the Order of Business in the Dáil today, Deputy Rabbitte gave the impression that we had referred this matter to a consultancy to decide. Advertisements appeared, the consultants have been appointed and they will carry out a baseline study on the needs of the Oireachtas, following which we will come up with a figure.

The figure allocated will not just refer to one year, as such a figure would be subject to the annual Vote. This would lead to hassle with the Department of Finance and the Minister if there were any cutbacks. The sum given will be for a period of at least three years, following which it will be reviewed. This is a new innovation. Following the recent Buckley report, the sum allocated will deal with salaries of Members and grades down to principal officer.

Other issues, such as those involving research assistants, will be decided by the commission. The commission may decide that Members should have an extra assistant, that Front Bench spokespersons should receive an additional salary or whatever. All these problems will be dealt with so we will not constantly argue over how to spend money, what the budgets for parliamentary trips should be or whatever. The commission can make such decisions and the best of luck to it.

The commission will be an innovation. The heads of the Bill will be drafted and discussions have started in this regard. In the past day or so a letter was sent to the Clerk of the Dáil, the Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach to enter into discussions on various matters regarding their responsibilities and how matters will progress. That is my intention. There will be an Oireachtas commission which will receive a large Vote and will make decisions. This is not an innovation on my behalf, as similar arrangements apply in other jurisdictions

Senator Cox made an interesting point regarding maternity leave. She pointed out that maternity leave is paid, but asked how she could signal her vote in the House while on such leave. I can see possible constitutional difficulties regarding voting arrangements. This issue applies to both Houses, but I do not think we will be able to overcome this problem. However, I will examine the issue. Senator Cox, whom I know very well, is the last person in the House known to have given birth to a baby. I hope she is not giving a broad signal on her future intentions in this regard but if she is, I welcome that also. To finish the earlier point, the Oireachtas Commission will undertake a study to arrive at a baseline figure, and work on from there.

Senator Ryan outlined the difficulties regarding the McKenna judgment, a matter also raised by Senator Connor who received a letter pointing out the difficulties involved. The unfortunate problem is that, perhaps, the judgment, as such, will have to be re-examined by the courts. Some have cast some interesting aspersions on what the commission had to do during the recent referenda in the light of the judgment. It had to give equal space to the arguments for and against the three issues. It must be somewhat difficult making up arguments against some of them. Leaving aside the Nice treaty referendum, there are other issues involved.

Mr. Ryan

What about the Nice treaty now?

That is it. I am sure I would make myself very popular with Senators Connor and Bonner for doing what they want regarding secretarial assistance. Would I be equally popular, however, if, after the election of either Senator Connor or Senator Bonner to Dáil Éireann, they were challenged and the election was declared null and void because they had a secretarial assistant in their constituencies? That might happen.

Every other outgoing Deputy will have the same thing.

These points are being considered by the Public Offices Commission. All these areas are coming into play. Senator Ryan made the interesting analogy about Ministers. Ministers are essentially covered in the course of their activities but not during an election campaign. This issue was mentioned the other day. All these interesting questions have come to light on account of the decision arising from the McKenna judgment. The Attorney General is a person of forceful opinions but he is actually not responsible for this matter. These are reasonable interpretations to take from the McKenna judgment.

I thank Senators for their general welcome for the Bill. I had hoped to introduce these two particular Bills earlier in the session because the impression is always given that one just brings them forward at the end of a session. The reason they are being introduced now, however, is that I could not get them expedited through the legislative process until quite recently. I thank Senators for their support.

Question put and agreed to.
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