Before the Order of Business, I have just been informed that former Senator Eoin Ryan died during the night. It would be appropriate for the House to record its sympathy. We should have fuller expressions of sympathy next week. He was one of our distinguished Members from a very distinguished political family. Our sympathy goes to his son, the Minister of State, Deputy Eoin Ryan, in particular.
Order of Business.
It is my intention to have formal expressions of sympathy on the next sitting day.
I will contribute more fully then. The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Planning and Development Regulations, 2001, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Bill, 2001 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] – Report and Final Stages; No. 3, statements on illegal dumping, to be taken from 11 a.m. until 1 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons to be ten minutes and all other Senators eight minutes; No. 4, statements on the Wexford tragedy, to be taken from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons to be ten minutes and all other Senators eight minutes. There will then be a sos. We will also take the Referendum Bill, 2001, and the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, 2001. These two Bills are still before the Dáil and will be circulated on a supplementary Order Paper later today. The Referendum Bill, 2001, will be taken not earlier than 3.15 p.m. The Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, 2001, will be taken not earlier than 4.30 p.m.
I am glad we will have a full opportunity next week to pay tribute to the late Senator Ryan, who was one of the finest Senators ever to grace this House.
The Deputy Leader has to be out of his mind with the Order of Business he is proposing today.
Very possibly.
I have no difficulty with the business I agreed with the Government Leader last Friday, even though that was a bit later than usual and was not very helpful to the Opposition. We are being asked to get through two Bills today on effectively the last day the Dáil is sitting, when these Bills have not yet been discussed by the Dáil. In my 20 years in politics, emergency legislation like this where a Bill has to go through both Houses of the Oireachtas on the same day generally happened if the country is invaded, if there is an army coup d'état, if the banks are collapsing, when the Goodman empire was about to put thousands of people out of work without payment or when PMPA was about to collapse and half the people would be driving uninsured. It is for matters of this moment that the Houses of the Oireachtas rush through legislation.
I do not have any difficulty with the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, a technical Bill on which I suspect there is broad consensus. However, the Referendum Bill which seeks, whether we agree or not, although there is probably wide agreement in the Houses, to overturn a Supreme Court judgment is fundamental. We were clearly warned in the Supreme Court that a referendum belongs to the people and anything to do with it should be approached in a careful, conservative and steady way. Instead of that, the Minister is rushing through the Bill on the last day without the possibility of proper discussion. That either shows the arrogance or stupidity of the Minister or there is something sinister behind it.
A combination of both.
When such practice is engaged in by a Government, it is the job of everyone to suspect that something dodgy is happening. We will oppose the Order of Business today. I know the Deputy Leader, who is a reasonable person – it is nice to have him in the House today – will take on board the points we are making.
Apparently the ghost of 1971 is back to haunt us. It is important we get the full story of what happened at that time. There are many people with different agendas. I was not persuaded by last night's programme. I would like to revisit the suggestion we made here that an independent group should examine the documents and try to treat this as a matter of history rather than of current political debate.
I strenuously oppose the Order of Business which is not good enough. Two of the most significant items do not appear on the Order Paper because they have not been dealt with in the other House. This seems to be an extraordinarily poor way to do business. My understanding, which the Deputy Leader could perhaps confirm, is that the House will meet again next Tuesday. It does not make sense to try to take two significant pieces of legislation today. I must declare an interest in the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill.
It is only a technical Bill.
As Senator Manning said, the other Bill is of crucial importance, a fact which I appeal to Members on the other side of the House to consider. The Government is deciding to do this without offering any important reason other than that it does not want to trouble a Minister by asking him or her to come in here next Tuesday to do some work.
That is what it is all about.
That is the only reason. The Leader and Deputy Leader must admit that any time they have had a difficulty we have met them and co-operated in any way possible. People on this side of the House have always been ready to solve the problems on the Government side. The Government's behaviour is disreputable and contemptible and is not an efficient way to do business. It stinks to high heaven. It is not right to take business which is not on the Order Paper. The matter should not be pressed to a vote. The Deputy Leader should accept the arguments, which I know will find resonance with Members on the other side of the House, and agree to deal with this business next Tuesday as people would then have time to examine and deal with it. This is a repeat of the day before yesterday. There is enough business to keep us going for the day without adding two further items. It is not important that we pass it before the weekend. A reasoned argument has not been given to us. I have asked senior people on the other side of the House why it is happening and no one knows. I am not trying to embarrass anyone.
The Senator has made his case adequately.
We have all been in the same boat. I ask people to take a stand. I am not criticising Members on the other side of the House.
There is not much left to be said by this side of the House about the Order of Business presented by the Deputy Leader.
The Senator should then sit down.
We have enough business with which to deal without adding extraneous material which is not on the Order Paper. We should devote a certain amount of time to No. 1 rather than taking it without debate. There are sufficient items on the Order Paper to keep us busy. Standards seem to go out the door in December as totally unnecessary items are rushed through the House. I am worried that there is no respect in some Departments for the work of either House. They see the week prior to the recess as a way of getting items passed quickly without the debate required to tease them out. It is totally unnecessary and it should not happen. The Referendum Bill deals with the fundamental issue of how to conduct constitutional referenda. It is outrageous to include that on the Order of Business today and expect us to do it. It should be withdrawn and we should proceed with the business originally outlined. We can take Second Stage next week and the Remaining Stages after the recess.
I ask for a debate on homelessness before Christmas. I understand we are sitting next week. Considering the deteriorating housing and homelessness situation, particularly in the city, it is an appropriate time to have a good debate on the issue.
We are all concerned about the Order of Business today, but we must address the deteriorating situation in the Middle East which must be resolved sooner rather than later. The people of Europe should be as worried as the people of the Middle East about the deteriorating situation in recent days. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, is working extremely hard on our behalf and on behalf of the people of the Middle East to restore rational discussion. Prime Minister Sharon said he has sidelined Arafat and will not discuss anything else with him. That is worrying. People are being killed every day. We must ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to continue his efforts because other people in Europe have a different agenda from us. I ask the Deputy Leader to convey our concerns to the Minister.
I propose a change to the Order of Business as outlined by the Deputy Leader. I propose that we take Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 in what ever order the House decides, which is what was agreed previously, and not take the extraneous material. The Bill does not exist as it cannot be placed on the Order Paper because it has not been passed by the other House. That is why it is improper to put it on the Order Paper. Occam's razor, with which I am sure the Deputy Leader is familiar, forbids the hypothetical discussion of the non-existent. That is what we are doing with the Bill and I will oppose it.
If we and all the staff of the House are working hard – we were here until 4 a.m. the other day – without any interest from any section of the media, at least we are entitled to lunch. Should we have a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m.? Are we entitled to that consideration?
We will have a late lunch.
Can we have a brief discussion on nursing homes and the fact that they illegally obtained money from residents and pensioners? They forced relatives to pay a sum of money which they were subsequently required to repay. A decision was made some time ago. Money was provided from central funds, but the money was not reimbursed despite the clear wish of both Houses of the Oireachtas and central Government. Can we try to get this done by Christmas and give these people a lift for the Christmas period?
I support the call by Senator Lanigan for a debate on the Middle East in which the current situation is extremely worrying and tragic.
I fully endorse Senator Manning's comments on the business arranged for today. What is proposed is very bad practice and we have not engaged in it before except in circumstances of extreme urgency where items on the Dáil agenda had to be on the Seanad agenda on the same day.
The case has been made adequately by the leaders.
I accept it has, but we should be extremely cautious in our approach to a matter that was touched on by a Supreme Court judgment. On a different but slightly related matter, when is it proposed to hold the referendum resulting from the passage of the Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy) Bill, 2001? Perhaps it is more appropriate to ask when it will become apparent what is the will of the people. From this morning's papers it appears that is what will decide it.
That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
I appreciate that, but it is important.
I second the proposal made by Senator Norris to change the Order of Business. Many Members of this House are, or have been, members of health boards and we constantly hear of problems with health boards. May we have a debate in the new year on the functions and the functioning of the boards, given that many Members would have very important comments to make during such a debate?
As a humble member of a religious community, I will not annoy the Cathaoirleach by repeating what has already been said, other than that I agree totally with Senator Norris. Technically, it is ludicrous to consider legislating on something that has not yet happened. The old saying "Marry in haste, repent at leisure" is known to the House and I suggest that if we legislate in haste we shall repent forever.
That is rich coming from a reverend mother.
It is a very dishonourable thing to do and it is no wonder people have no interest in referenda when they are treated in such a peremptory manner by the Government. Every democrat sitting opposite should agree that we do not proceed with the Order of Business as proposed. I am shocked, and that very rarely happens to me, except when I am called "Sister" of course.
Members will understand if I regret the absence of the Leader of the House.
Where is he?
I do not know.
The wiser counsel will prevail.
On a point of order, I remind the Deputy Leader that it is not customary to refer to the absence of a Member.
It is not in order, even if he will be missed.
I apologise unreservedly to the absent Member. The leaders of the Opposition groups and the leader of the Independents, as well as several other Senators, referred to the taking of the Referendum Bill, 2001, and the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, 2001, today. The purpose of the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, 2001, is to increase the membership of the Horse Racing Authority by one and I do not see that as being of any particular difficulty. The Referendum Bill, 2001, does not involve an attempt to overturn the McKenna judgment, but to legislate within that judgment. The Bill has to do with the Referendum Commission. Putting both sides of an argument in tandem in newspaper advertisements of two columns is not very sensible and it does not reflect the tenor of the debate, a view for which there is widespread support in all parties. I reject the accusation that there is anything dodgy about the Bill being brought before the House this afternoon.
I was also acting as Leader when the 1971 issue last arose. I agree with Senator Manning that the full story should be told and his suggestion that historians analyse the matter is a good one. We will see what can be done about it and if we need to return to the matter later we should do so. The Planning and Development Bill has come from a committee, there has been plenty of opportunity to debate it already and there is no need to do so here. Next week will be busy and the Social Welfare Bill, 2001, which is extensive, will be before the House. Many Senators contribute when the Social Welfare Bill comes before the House every year and I am conscious of the time constraints involved.
Senator Costello called for a debate on homelessness, which would be useful, and we will see what can be done to facilitate that. I agree very much with Senator Lanigan about the Middle East. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, made a very comprehensive statement in the Dáil on this matter yesterday in which he underlined the need to ensure that President Arafat remains in office because if he does not the vacuum created could be filled by extremists such as those in Hamas. We need to review constantly that issue and if time is available we will discuss it in the House.
I note the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Norris. A debate on nursing homes would be useful, but it will be after Christmas before we can consider having one. I do not know when the referendum arising from the Twenty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy) Bill, 2001, will be held.
The Deputy Leader is very honest.
It will be next year.
That is possible.
Senator Dardis is sailing close to the wind.
Issues relating to health boards are being discussed in the public domain and it would be useful if the House turned to them after Christmas. I note and welcome Senator Ridge's statement of humility.
Senator Norris moved an amendment to the Order of Business, to delete the Referendum Bill, 2001, and the Horse Racing Ireland (Membership) Bill, 2001.
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Maurice.Henry, Mary. |
Keogh, Helen.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Toole, Joe.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine. |
Níl
|
Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, John.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim. |
Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Lanigan, Mick.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Walsh, Jim. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Henry and Norris; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put, "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
Tá
|
Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim. |
Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Lanigan, Mick.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Walsh, Jim. |
Níl
|
Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Maurice.Henry, Mary. |
Keogh, Helen.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Toole, Joe.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Burke and O'Toole.
Question declared carried.