Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Feb 2002

Vol. 169 No. 2

Order of Business. - National Children's Strategy: Statements.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Ms Hanafin)

Tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil Seanad Éireann chun díospóireachta a dhéanamh ar an straitéis seo.

It is not surprising the Seanad should choose to have statements on this issue because in various debates during the past year or so Senators have shown a great interest in the national children's strategy. I am particularly pleased that today we will focus on the elements included in the strategy and the progress being made. I thank the Seanad for putting this matter on the agenda.

The national children's strategy, Our Children – Their Lives, was launched in November 2000 by the Taoiseach. It is a major Government initiative to improve the quality of children's lives. It is an agenda for action over the next ten years. It is comprehensive and challenges all of us to work with children to improve their lives.

The launch of the strategy is the strongest possible demonstration of the Government's commitment to Ireland's children. It is a very clear statement of support to parents, local communities and everyone who works with children. The strategy is a major initiative in progressing Ireland's implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

A key element to drive the change is a major reform of how the Government manages services for children, involving everyone from the child to the Taoiseach. Action is being taken at national and local level to bring a new focus to children's issues. For the first time ever a Minister with responsibility for children has been appointed and my purpose in that position is to ensure the national children's strategy is implemented. Work has commenced on the implementation of the strategy and I am determined that this strategy will be implemented in full to improve the lives of all the children in this country.

The national children's strategy is a tremendously important and innovative Irish social policy development and I am delighted to have been personally involved with it from the earliest stages. It addresses the needs of all children up to the age of 18. The challenge has been to draw a wide range of issues together into a coherent plan for action and to give leadership at national level for responding to the needs of children. In view of the complexity of the task, an interdepartmental group, comprised of assistant secretaries general from eight key Departments and a legal adviser from the Office of the Attorney General, was established to oversee the development of the national children's strategy. The work of the interdepartmental group was supported by a cross-departmental team, established under the strategic management initiative, comprised of officials from four Departments and an adviser from the Centre for Child Care Research, Queen's University, Belfast.

Two expert panels were established, a research and information group and a non-governmental service providers' group, to provide advice and guidance in the preparation of the strategy. A health board liaison group was established and meetings were held with the county managers of the local government authorities and the education partners. We have all worked together to develop the strategy. Equally important is that involvement of all these groups in its preparation means they are signed up to its delivery.

The most exciting part of the preparation process was the public consultation. A report of the public consultation process was published in September 2000, prior to publication of the strategy. Submissions were sought from the public. Some 316 submissions were received from private individuals, service providing organisations, pro fessional personnel in the health, child care, education and related fields and State bodies.

A critically important aspect of the consultation process, which I initiated and am proud to have been involved with, was to listen to what children and young people had to say. A total of 2,488 children participated in the consultation process. Involving children in such a direct way from the very beginning was a major innovation in the formulation of Government policy. It is an innovation that has attracted a lot of interest, both in Ireland and internationally. One of the key themes to emerge from the letters, e-mails, school visits, public meetings and an outing I had on "The Den" with Dustin was the need for more play and leisure facilities. The children grasped the opportunity to have a voice and to give their opinions. Children love living in Ireland today but they recognise that more needs to be done, particularly for some key groups of children.

A number of clear messages emerged from the consultation process. We need to help children to enjoy their childhood while at the same time preparing them to be good adults. There is a real need to draw together and co-ordinate all the activities taking place and give a clear direction for the future. We listened to what the experts said and took on board the views of the wider public, particularly the views of children themselves. This is reflected in the national children's strategy.

The strategy maps out a better way for everybody to work together for and with children. It achieves this by identifying a new co-ordinating framework for action, the purpose of which is to guide all our future efforts in terms of how we plan and manage the delivery of services to children and their families. That framework involves a vision underpinned by six principles that will guide all future actions; the whole child perspective, which provides a more complete picture of children's lives and the relationships they enjoy; three national goals – children will have a voice, children will be better understood and children will benefit from quality supports and services; and new structural arrangements to ensure implementation.

All this is set out in the strategy which, for the first time, included a children's version when published. The development of this strategy and the consultation document in a form suitable for children shows a commitment and new direction in providing documentation which children can understand and take ownership of and of which they can feel part.

I will now summarise the actions that have already been taken in the implementation of the strategy. If we are to maintain a focus on children, we must have a unifying vision towards which we can all work. The vision that we want to aspire to is as follows: an Ireland where children are respected as young citizens with a valued contribution to make and a voice of their own, where all children are cherished and supported by fam ily and the wider society, where they enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential. The strategy is underpinned by six core principles that will guide all actions taken under the strategy. They are, therefore, very important. All measures will be child-centred, family-oriented, equitable, inclusive, action-oriented and integrated.

We have all recognised the need for better co-ordination between Departments and agencies providing services to children. Everybody has good intentions and does good work but each is only working from his or her own angle. The national children's strategy puts forward a whole child perspective, which provides a more complete understanding of children's lives, of the relationships which shape their lives and of the supports and services they need to sustain and develop them into adulthood. An important element of the whole child perspective is the recognition of the child as active participant.

Our examination of the implications of adopting this whole child perspective has led to the identification of three clear goals. The first national goal is that children will have a voice in matters which affect them and their views will be given due weight in accordance with their age and maturity. Giving children a voice is a core principle of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Giving children a voice in this way is important for a number of reasons: the child is a member of our society in his or her own right; every child should be supported to enjoy his or her childhood; involvement supports them in preparing for adulthood; children are major users of services; and, in the past, we did not listen to children and they suffered the consequences. We are asking all groups, agencies and clubs which work with children to give children a voice.

The Government is giving a lead through a series of measures, the most novel one being the establishment of Dáil na nÓg where children from all over the country will have their voices heard at national level. The other key measure, which will have a major impact in the future, will be the establishment of the Office of Ombudsman for Children. We want children's voices to be heard in respect of planning and the provision of facilities for play and recreation, health issues through the health boards and school through the schools councils. The legislation concerning the Ombudsman for Children has been cleared for publication by Government. I hope it will be published over the next week or so and I intend to start the debate on that in the Seanad and progress the establishment of the office.

The first Dáil na nÓg took place on Wednesday, 5 September 2001 in the Mansion House, Dublin. Over 240 children between the ages of eight years and 17 years, representative of every county and socio-economic group, attended. The Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, attended Dáil na nÓg to observe this historic inaugural session and to listen to participants speaking about the issues relevant to their lives. The Taoiseach was presented with a short report on the day's proceedings by the cathaoirleach of Dáil na nÓg. An independent evaluation of the first Dáil na nÓg has been undertaken and a report will be published in the near future. A report of the proceedings has also been discussed at the Cabinet sub-committee on children, with a view to trying to implement some of the ideas of the children directly in Government policy.

Every county development board has been asked to hold a local dáil na n'óg or comhairle na n'óg in its area, which will feed into the 2002 national Dáil na nÓg. Each local comhairle na n'óg will nominate children to attend the national Dáil na nÓg. A number have taken place throughout the country and on 15 February we will be holding one with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Development Board with the support of the National Children's Office. The other county development boards have been invited to attend to observe the proceedings to encourage them to hold a comhairle or dáil in their own areas. Funding will be made available to the county development boards for this purpose.

We will be giving children a voice at national level and down to local level. However, giving them a voice is not enough, we need to listen to them and understand them. A key issue that emerged during the preparation of the strategy was the limited empirical data and research-based understanding of children's lives. It was difficult to pull together a comprehensive picture of the state of children in Ireland today simply because the information is not available or the quality of the information is unreliable. Without proper information and research on what is effective, the task of developing policy and providing effective supports and services for children is compromised. To address this, a number of measures are proposed under the second national goal for children, "Children and their lives will be better understood; their lives will benefit from evaluation research and information on their needs, rights and the effectiveness of services."

The aim of this goal is to achieve a better understanding of how children grow up in Ireland. The key measures proposed include a national longitudinal study of children, which we will use to track how a large sample of children progress through the stages of infancy and childhood through to adulthood. As one will expect, this will be a major long-term project. Following a tendering process, the contract for the design brief for the longitudinal study was awarded to the Consortium of Researchers in Ireland, the membership of which is drawn from a large cross-section of the Irish research community. Work on the design brief has been completed and proposals on the commencement of the study will be submitted to the Government shortly.

In addition, other measures are to be taken to improve our information and research knowledge, including the establishment of a children's research programme and the publication of a report on the state of the nation's children. The aim of the report is to provide a regularly updated statement of children's well-being. The other important measure to be taken is the establishment of a national children's research dissemination unit. If research on best practice is to be translated into action on the ground, it is important that that information is passed down to practitioners who are working with children. The new research dissemination unit will undertake this task.

Two national children's strategy doctoral fellowships have been awarded commencing in the academic year 2001-2002 under the children's research programme. The fellowships are worth £10,000 each per annum, plus university fees. The two research projects chosen for the last academic year are playtime in schools and youth suicide. Having listened to children's views and understood their needs we must act.

The third national goal is that children will receive quality supports and services to promote all aspects of their development. There are 14 objectives under this national goal, which is inevitable given the broad range of children's needs. The measures to be taken under each of these are set out in the document. These inevitably reflect many of the current measures. As the strategy is implemented and the measures under the first two goals, in particular, start to have effect we should expect to see changes. The Government will continue to give priority to certain key groups focusing on child poverty, children with disabilities, Traveller children, children in crisis coming before the courts and homeless children. For the first time in a Government document, one of the specific targets is the elimination of child poverty. We are committed also to developing prevention and early intervention services.

One of the key issues which arose from the consultation process was the need for more play and leisure activities. Throughout the country young people highlighted that they had no playground, no leisure facilities, no alternatives to the pub. The Government committed at the launch of the strategy to the development and funding of a national play and recreation policy. Work has commenced on the development of this policy and a working group has been established to progress the work.

The Government is also committed to continuing its efforts to improve the integration of services on the ground so that they are more easily accessed by families and children. Working groups have been established to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the Children Act, 2001, and the national youth homelessness strategy. Each of these is cross-departmental.

The strategy is not just aims and hopes, it is a real plan which is being delivered by new structures, involving everybody from the child to the Taoiseach. The new structures, which will improve the focus on children and support better outcomes for them through stronger leadership and co-ordinated activity, have been put in place. The Taoiseach chairs a Cabinet committee for children, which meets on a quarterly basis to review progress in implementing the strategy and to agree priorities for action. The Cabinet committee on children met three times in 2001. I have been appointed in a broader role as Minister for children and I am responsible for overseeing implementation of the strategy and co-ordinating Government policy on children. I report progress to the Cabinet committee.

The National Children's Office has been established to support me in the implementation of the strategy. While Government Departments retain responsibility for implementing the strategy, the office co-ordinates and monitors progress in this regard. The office is now taking the lead role in a number of key policy areas. These include co-ordinating and monitoring the implementation of the Children Act, 2001, and the national youth homelessness strategy as well as developing a national play and recreation policy.

The National Children's Advisory Council has an independent advisory role in relation to the implementation of the strategy and reports to me. The inaugural meeting of the National Children's Advisory Council took place on 15 May 2001 and it has held six meetings in total since its establishment. The council, which has a membership of 30, includes representatives of the statutory agencies, voluntary sector, research community, parents and children.

It is noteworthy that, for the first time on a Government board, there are three child representatives on the National Children's Advisory Council. They are three teenagers from Dublin, Tipperary and Leitrim. Each of them is coming from a different perspective and challenging the traditional way in which Government boards have worked. At the first meeting of the council, I proposed two priorities to be addressed – the voice of children and play and recreation. These areas were agreed by the council and working groups have been established to address them.

The national children's strategy must be implemented at local as well as national level. I have been promoting the strategy among families, children and local communities through a series of nationwide visits. I have visited five locations around the country and I will be visiting Tralee on 1 March. Each visit commenced with a visit to a local school and an interview with local radio. This was followed by a forum for community groups, parents and local statutory bodies and the day concluded with a special forum for children and young people.

The city and county development boards are identified as the key bodies to lead implementation of the strategy at local level by ensuring that children's issues, as identified in the strategy, are addressed in their strategies for economic, social and cultural development. Children's participation in the development of these strategies has been highlighted as an important aspect of these local plans. The city and county development boards have been issued with presentation packs on the national children's strategy to encourage them to further promote the strategy at local level.

The National Children's Office is currently working with a number of CDBs advising them on how their strategies for economic, social and cultural development will ensure the implementation at local level. I also hope to see the further development of school councils, so that children can have their voice at school level and that the health boards also will ensure the children in their care will be listened to where it is most important.

The United Nations General Assembly Special Session on Children, originally planned for 19 to 21 September 2001, was postponed following the tragic events of 11 September. I was due to attend and address this session. The special session will now take place from 8 to 10 May 2002. I am still due to address this session but, given the dates, I am not sure that I will be able to do so this year. The National Children's Office is, however, undertaking the preparatory work. As part of the preparations, an end of decade report to review the progress made since the last world summit on children in 1990 was published on 27 November 2001 and presented to UNICEF.

The National Children's Office and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform represented Ireland at the Second World Congress against Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in Yokohama, Japan from 17 to 20 December 2001, and at the Council of Europe preparatory conference, which was held in Budapest in November 2001. The World Congress adopted the Yokohama Global Commitment 2001 which re-affirms the declaration and agenda for action adopted in Stockholm in 1996. It is also encouraging to see other countries adopting a national children's strategy. There has been particular interest in our strategy from the other members of the European Community and from our colleagues in Australia and New Zealand, who have used our strategy as a model for their own.

It is my belief that the national children's strategy maps out a more focused and better way of doing things for all our children. The proposals in the strategy are designed to do this. As the Senators will see, the structures necessary for the implementation of the strategy are now in place. Work has commenced on its implementation. I will continue to work to ensure that this strategy is implemented in full. However, I cannot do that on my own. We must all work together to ensure that children enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential.

Má chuirtear gach rud ins an straitéis seo i bhfeidhm tá mé lán-chinnte go bhfeicfimid, i gceann naoi mbliana nó mar sin, difríocht dhearfach i saolta pháistí na tíre.

Mrs. Ridge

I welcome the Minister of State. I have no doubt of her commitment to her brief regarding the promotion of children's interests, health and well-being. I am reading from the children's executive summary because it is the most sensible one I have seen for a long time. Everything is in bullet points. I do not agree that the Taoiseach is wonderful to have provided this but I take on board the well-meaning aspirations of the strategy. Like everything else, including ourselves, it is flawed in some areas.

I am speaking as a former national chairman of the Irish Pre-school Playgoups Association and latterly having taught child care, among other subjects, to VEC students, boys and girls, and being a part-time tutor in early childhood education in Maynooth. However, my belief and perspective comes from the fact that there are no longer proper role models for good parenting. I do not mean that as a global statement. As the Minister knows, there are areas both urban and rural where young parents, many of them single, have not the slightest clue how to provide the things mentioned in the strategy: a sense of well-being and happiness, making sure their children learn how to read, write, behave as a person and to be kind and loving.

In second level schools there are many social science programmes, stay safe programmes, etc. I once had the benefit of participating in a small study visit to England. They had a specific examination subject in the GSE for boys and girls called education for parenthood. It was the most sensible and practical thing I had come across for a very long time. Socially the problems we have at the moment were probably prevailing in Great Britain about 20 years ago. Unfortunately, we always seem to follow suit.

The role models of mother and father have changed mainly because of the break up of older communities. When I was very young and a child was born – very often not in a hospital but at home – neighbours used to help. Grandmothers and others who were skilled were around and children learnt how to be good parents by osmosis. They minded their younger siblings and had a sense of responsibility and control.

One of the main features of this strategy is access to education and information. In many very large urban areas that were once described as rural, and some rural ones also, school attendance officers are non-existent. I know that gardaí look after this in the country, but in areas like Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Clondalkin it is ridiculous that there are no school attendance officers. They operate within the city boundaries, however.

From my experience of representing an area that has many children unable to link into many of these benefits, I will not say the objectives are pious hopes, but they are highly aspirational unless the Minister's office pulls together the strands. What can be done when a health board does not have enough social workers to intervene? I know one family where the grandmother is minding three children because, unfortunately, her two daughters and their partners are drug addicts. Apart from the parents not being good examples, they are physically and mentally incapable of raising a child. This woman is doing it on her own because she is trying to save her grandchildren from a fate worse than death.

This strategy will work very well and I welcome it. However, it will only work for those already in the loop and I feel we should have a more definite approach. We all acknowledge what is needed, but we are always faced with another large report with proposed systems for intervention which never seem to get implemented. I know the Minister has been a most able and concerned advocate for children, but with great respect I hope she will not be the Minister next year. Will this programme continue? The ombudsman has not yet been appointed. If nothing else happened before the election, it would be very positive to make that appointment.

While Childline fills a need, it is a standard joke that children, who are being very well treated and are very happy generally, have threatened to report their parents to Childline whenever they fail to get money to go to their favourite film, etc. I have never been in favour of chat lines of any kind. In an emergency people are more likely to ring the Samaritans than Childline. On reading the Childline reports, it is clear that significant sifting has to be done. If we have an ombudsman, it would be a State office that would have the staff with the skills to intervene if a child has a particular difficulty.

I am slightly pessimistic but nonetheless realistic in saying that we should acknowledge that society has broken down at many levels. Every weekend there are stabbings and other acts of violence. People cannot control their anger when fuelled by an excess of alcohol. How can children make responsible decisions if their mother has not the skills to be a good parent and is in the pub whenever she has the money? Many of the fathers of such children have three other children living within one mile, all by different women.

We need to take fire-fighting action here. These children will roam wild from about seven years of age and never go to school unless a school liaison officer comes. Eventually they become criminalized. Girls will probably get into prostitution and boys may get into male prostitution or drugs. These are the harsh realities of living in Dublin today. The strategy will not allow for these voices to be heard. Silent scream would be the best description of how they might communicate. Their lives are completely blighted from birth.

There used to be the intervention of immediate family members living in close proximity to take on minding a difficult child and they had the presence of mind to say to a parent that something was not quite right and that the child needed to be looked after. Now we blame the health boards if social workers are not available instantly. We all know that the health boards cannot recruit the number of social workers they need. I admire the work of any judge who intervenes to try to improve the life of any young person, but I wonder whether such matters should be discussed in the courts. I think the judge was wrong in the way he dealt with the Minister recently.

Two girls of 15 or 16 died, one last year and one this year. One of them already had two children. It is possible to argue forever about who should have looked after her and when. However, in an ideal world she would not have had that lifestyle. It is time we recognised that there is a serious level of breakdown in our society and we should openly acknowledge that we badly need to recruit more social workers. I am not blaming anyone for that situation. I do not know how one would recruit more social workers given that it is a difficult job.

The child inherits the parents' attitudes. There are major anomalies and discrepancies in people's ability to parent. Why can a subject on how to be a good parent, or on how to fulfil one's duties as a parent, which many people do not do, not be introduced at second level or in the last stages of first level? If we acknowledge such education is needed, we might make a start towards providing a true strategy, inasmuch as all the objectives aimed for in the strategy pertained here at one time.

While people were not as wealthy as they are now, 11 year old children were not in permanent care. In one case three 11 year olds tore a health board building to pieces and caused £40,000 worth of damage. How damaged and injured are those children? Irrespective of that, they should not take that out on a building. This is a grave issue. While the implementation of this strategy is wonderful and I commend it, it is for those who are already coping, but I am very concerned about the ones who are not.

The Minister of State recommends, as I do, that there should be more emphasis on play and on hearing the voices of children. The voices of the children I come across are mute. They cannot be heard for many reasons. While we would all acknowledge that grants under every heading have been given for different areas, in part of the area I represent, which I will not name, where all the incidents I described are not rampant but visibly present, the local second level school which was built 22 years ago still lacks a sports hall. The Minister of State spoke specifically about equality of opportunity and said that every child should have the supports that a child in ideal circumstances would have. Perhaps we were all lucky inasmuch as we had very many of those supports. How can we help a child if there is no sports hall facility in his or her area, which has 3,500 houses of the same type and where there is a fairly good spotting of the criminal element and drug problems? We do not live in a climate that provides us with year round sunshine.

I come back to my original thesis. I strongly believe that the time has come to put education for parenthood on the school curriculum, partic ularly for boys. I am glad to welcome my esteemed colleague, Senator Fitzpatrick, to the House. Until he came in, there were only women present speaking on behalf of children, but that reflects national attitudes. I appreciate that the Leas-Chathaoirleach is present, but he has to be here.

I urge that the Minister of State should take on board my suggestion. A simple programme on education for parenthood could be introduced. Many people would say it would be wrong to make it an examination subject because of how young people would feel if they failed it. It would be much easier to fail that subject at 15 and be able to go on and do something about it than to go into adult life without that education and have children who would have troublesome lives and a horrible existence because of the inadequacy of their parents.

I welcome the strategy. I ask the Minister of State to take on board my suggestion of introducing education for parenthood. It would be no harm if the Minister of State's office examined the system available in the UK. It was originally provided by a charity which drew up the programme. It was taken into the comprehensive schools because it was felt that the children in the grammar school would always know how to be a parent. How wrong people were in thinking that. The subject should be introduced for boys and girls, even if only for one hour a week, and it should not be optional.

Ms Cox

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. The point was well made by Senator Ridge that it is mainly women who are discussing this issue. I am aware that Senator Fitzpatrick will speak on it and more members of the Fianna Fáil Party may discuss it.

This strategy is welcome and we have put it in place. We have set out a plan and outlined what we will do. Regardless of what Minister is in office, the plan is in place and it must be followed. We have set out our vision for the future. We have said this is the type of place we want Ireland to be for our young people. Irrespective of what Minister or Government is in office, I assume they will follow through on this strategy. I am aware that Fianna Fáil is committed to following through on it. I am not aware whether it is part of the agenda and manifesto of the other political parties.

Mrs. Ridge

It always has been.

Ms Cox

Fianna Fáil has said clearly that it has produced this vision and strategy and will do what is proposed in it.

It is a major Government initiative of which I, as a member of the Oireachtas for the past five years, am extremely proud. Parents would say that the most important thing in their life is their children. They are central to their life, to society and to what we are about. One of the great strengths of Irish society is the love of our chil dren and the central position in which we place them in terms of how we do our business and live our lives.

I was saddened to hear the experiences outlined by Senator Ridge. While I accept them as valid, that is not the position all over the country or in every part of Dublin. The prospect for our children is much better than for children in many other countries. Because of the existence of the problems Senator Ridge spoke about – child prostitution, children not attending education, children from seven years onwards running wild on our streets, criminalised before they are ten years old who get into all sorts of terrible problems – we have brought forward the national children's strategy. We have identified the issues and what we want to do to look after our children.

This strategy is comprehensive and it challenge us. It challenges every Department and every person responsible for providing services to children. It challenges us to deliver on what we say we will do. It challenges the Government of the day to put the necessary resources in place to provide for what it said it will do. If we ask people what they think about this issue, it challenges us to listen. There is no point in asking children their opinion on this or that if we do not do something about it. We want to hear what people have to say and we will make changes.

I hope that before the end of the term of this Government, a children's ombudsman will be appointed. This would be one concrete example of the changes that have been happening in recent years, which I welcome. I have spoken about why we need this strategy and about the importance of children.

Senator Ridge raised an important point on education for parenthood. She is right about that and we need more of it. We need help to be parents. It was easier to be a parent in times gone by when children did not expect as much and when parents were not under as much pressure. It is much more difficult now to be a parent than it was five to ten years ago. There were challenges then but they were different. We now have the challenges of today.

I wish more parenting courses were available. In order to get child benefit for one's first or second child, one would have to produce an attendance slip confirming one attended a parenting course. We do pre-marriage courses before getting married so it might not be a bad idea to do a pre-parenting course before having children. It certainly might make a difference to the lives of some children and to the way parents do their job.

I compliment the Minister and the team behind the strategy. In her address this morning she identified the people, and the levels at which they work in the various Departments, who were involved in putting it together. They met people and listened. Public consultation was sought and the submissions were accepted, examined and taken on board.

We have identified the messages that emerged from that consultation process. Children want to enjoy their childhood. They do not want to be good adults; that is what we want, that they grow up to be good adults. A child, however, wants to enjoy their childhood. That is the challenge for us because if they enjoy their childhood, they will evolve into what we want for them, which is to grow up to be successful, good people who continue to provide and contribute to society in a meaningful and successful way.

We also identified the problem that while there might be many good things available for children, they need to be drawn together. There has to be a co-ordinated approach. We cannot have one thing done in one part of the country and another thing done in another part where children in one area are disadvantaged because they live in that area while children in another area are given more advantages. We asked the children for their opinions and we listened to them. That was important. The Dáil na nÓg is an example of how that is moving forward. It gives credence to the calls various people have been making over the last number of years.

When I started in public life five years ago we were not really talking about the issue of child care. Play facilities was an issue at local authority level but when one talked about playgrounds nobody listened. People tended to reply that the money was not available and that it was more important to fix the street lights or the potholes in roads. Those things are important but we must accept that if we do not provide the right environment for our children, we will create the problems of the future. Those problems will be harder to fix when the children are between 16 and 19 years of age than when they are five to eight year olds.

The Minister outlined the vision to which we aspire:

An Ireland where children are respected as young citizens with a valued contribution to make and a voice of their own; where all children are cherished and supported by family and the wider society; where they enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential.

That is the most amazing statement a country can make in outlining its vision for its children. I have no doubt that other countries are looking to Ireland and saying: "Look at what they have done; look at what they have said about their children and look at the importance they have placed on them." If that policy can be promoted throughout the world, it would be something of which the Government and I, as a Member of the Oireachtas, could be proud. We have decided to measure our actions against the core principles that they are child centred, family oriented, equitable, inclusive, action oriented and integrated. As in any good plan, we have set out what we want to achieve and outlined the key principles against which we will measure our actions.

The easy to read and understand children's version of the child strategy is fabulous. Many parents told me it was great because they could read it in a ten or 11 page book rather than going through the entire document. It made a big difference to children that they could read and understand something that was about them.

I look forward to the early establishment of the office of the ombudsman for children. We saw the difference the ombudsman made to general life so the ombudsman for children will make a huge difference to the lives of children over the next few years. It will give children a greater say in various issues. Planning is one. Estates are being built throughout the country without play facilities. How expensive can it be to include a €45,000 playground in a development which comprises up to 400 houses? It must be less expensive to do it then than to do it at a later stage or not do it at all. If there is a central place where children and toddlers can play, perhaps including a skateboard park or a basketball court for older children, it will keep children off the streets and away from the challenges of drugs and alcohol. It gives them something to do.

That is what children want. They want to stay out of the pub. They do not want to be drinking in the bushes at night or doing drugs such as ecstasy or heroin. I visited a number of schools two weeks ago and spoke to the pupils about the national children's strategy. I asked them what they liked about living in Ireland. They loved living in Connemara. I then asked them what they did not like and what frightened them about becoming teenagers. The things that frightened them were drugs and drink. I asked if they thought they would drink and they told me they did not want to drink. They were ten and 11 year olds and clearly said they did not want to drink or get drunk. However, they did not see any way out of it. They still believed that by the time they reached 13, 14 or 15 years of age they would be drinking and getting drunk. They did not know what they could do about it. They need our help. We need facilities and to put greater focus on giving them confidence and assertiveness. We must give them other things to do aside from drinking.

Galway City Council has adopted a child friendly strategy in providing play facilities. If we could make Ireland the child friendly country of Europe, imagine what it would do for our economy and our tourism industry. We could market ourselves as the country to visit for a clean, green, child friendly holiday. Think of the number of people from the Continent and from America who would visit this country. It is a huge opportunity to exploit that potential in a business setting. That, in itself, would put back into the economy the revenue we need in terms of taxes to pay for the facilities we are seeking.

We need ring-fenced funding for this strategy. It needs separate funding that does not decrease when money gets tight. It must be a percentage allocation every year. Just as we put money aside for pensions, we must put money into the children's strategy. I have no doubt that the Minister, when she reports to the various committees and to the Taoiseach, continually puts this message across.

I wish to digress a little from the strategy and discuss the general context of children. If there was more involvement of women in more areas of government, there would be greater emphasis on children and on this strategy. With due respect to the former Minister, Deputy Fahey, who did a good job as Minister of State with responsibility for children, this strategy and its successful vision is due to the fact that it was driven by this Minister. As a woman she understood the issue and did the business.

If there was more involvement of women at all levels, there would be greater emphasis on children in the way the country does its business. There would be more crèche facilities, such as local crèches, drop-in crèches, crèches in shopping centres and crèches in conference and meeting venues. We are regularly invited to conferences and meetings throughout the country but what do we do if we want to bring children with us? There are no facilities. One cannot bring one's children. If one does not have a babysitter, what does one do? If one is a lone parent, a separated parent or one's husband or wife is out of the country, what will one do if one is trying to do one's normal business? These challenges face parents daily. They are the barriers preventing parents moving ahead and ensuring they get involved at the necessary levels where they can benefit children.

There should be greater use of school facilities after school hours. I accept Senator Ridge's remarks about the lack of a sports hall in her local school but many schools have those facilities which are closed and unused after 3 o'clock. That is a sin. We should be using these facilities increasingly on a daily and weekly basis. If insurance issues are the problem, that should be acknowledged and a way found of dealing with it. It is about deciding what to do and doing it rather than finding reasons we cannot. One of the good things about this strategy is that it is proactive, in your face and out there. It is about going out and doing something for our children.

I draw the Minister of State's attention to a recent campaign with which I have been involved concerning television advertising geared towards children because it fits with the themes of equity and fairness. Our children are being exploited on a daily basis by the marketeers of fast food products, toys, clothes, runners and designer label goods through a constant bombardment of advertising aimed at children. Children under the age of 12 cannot discern the reasoning behind advertising. They cannot make decisions about why they might or might not want to buy something, yet we are allowing them to be exploited by advertisers. The advertisers use the concept of ‘pester power' which persuades children to pester their parents so that when they go to the supermarket they have to buy a tin of beans or other food product.

Children are being exploited and consequently their parents are being exploited. This may be very well if the family has plenty of money and has the confidence to say no. However if the family does not have as much money they may not be able to afford products, the parents may feel inadequate because they cannot afford them and may borrow money or spend money they do not have to give the children what they want to enable them keep up with their peers.

Various studies have proven that children sometimes suffer from bullying because they do not have the same designer runners or track suit gear as their neighbours. This can be used by children to be mean to one another as they grow up. The bullying takes the form of children saying they are better than those who do not have the same. This leads to low esteem among children and difficulties which they will carry with them throughout their lives.

This is an issue which the children's ombudsman could address directly, if we had one in place, and we could see more action rather than the matter being left in the hands of the chairman of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. I know I have the Minister of State's support on this issue. In addition to the setting up of the children's ombudsman, the ring fencing of the money we spoke about and the provision of adequate and appropriate play facilities, if we are to protect our children, we must address the area of advertising and the exposure of children to materialism and consumerism at an age that they cannot understand it. We will then have started to level the playing pitch for our children and make life better for them.

We will continue to improve our commitment to our children. I believe, as does the Minister of State, that children should not be exploited at any level. They should be cherished, supported and helped along the way. That is what this strategy does and what this Minister of State is doing. Her commitment is obvious.

We need a review of the strategy. There is an in-built review process as part of the strategy so that, in two years' time, if we have not achieved what we set out to do, questions should be asked. We should ask why the strategy has not worked, whether there was insufficient money, whether there was insufficient commitment or what was wrong with the Departments of Education and Science, Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform which have, amongst their myriad responsibilities, responsibility for children.

This strategy is one of the greatest achievements of any Government. I am not biased in saying that. Anybody who examines it to see what we have done will congratulate us. It is not perfect – nothing is – but it is a start. It is a focused, well-presented document which has set out major targets and challenges. Nobody should underestimate those challenges but it gives us a game plan and a framework within which to work, without which we would have nothing. I compliment the Minister of State on the work that has been put into this wonderful programme and I look forward to seeing its provisions implemeted.

Dr. Henry

I am delighted the Minister of State is here this morning and I compliment her on bringing forward this strategy. She has put a great deal of energy into her job and the commitment she has instilled in her officials shows because this is obviously not a one woman effort. She clearly had a great deal of help and support in bringing forward this strategy. I am concerned that this commitment may not be maintained when she is no longer in this position having gone on to higher office – not just minding children but minding all of us.

I support Senator Cox's point that money should be ring-fenced to deal with the issues described in the strategy. If there is one thing that should be done before the election it is the establishment of the children's ombudsman. There is so much in this strategy that the Minister of State will not get it all done but that is one of the most important provisions.

I will address the issue of better co-ordination between Departments which the Minister of State raised. When I was reading the children's strategy, I also looked at the health of our children in the annual report of the Chief Medical Officer for 2000 which has just been published and the health strategy which was published by the Minister for Health and Children. There were serious deficiencies in both documents regarding the health of our children.

The Minister raised the matter of a national longitudinal survey of children which is worthwhile. Some years ago the late Dr. Nessa Joyce carried out such a study of cohorts of children born in the Rotunda Hospital. I am not sure how long they were followed up for but there may be work in the background which can be accessed which would allow comparison between the children of this generation and those of the 1960s and 1970s which is when that study was carried out. There may also be other studies which may be useful to the Minister of State.

I am delighted Senator Fitzpatrick is here because, as a general practitioner, he will have views on this too. All of the relevant documents – the national children's strategy, the health of our children and the health strategy – are missing any reference to eating disorders. This has unfortunately become a serious problem. I will return to the issue of advertising which Senator Cox referred to earlier.

I must declare an interest in that I am president of the Diabetes Federation of Ireland. I was asked to take that position by the federation because in debates in this House I have raised the lack of play and recreation facilities for children, which is emphasised in the Minister of State's report. Senator Fitzpatrick will know this goes hand in hand with a great increase in obesity. When we refer to eating disorders in children, we are inclined to think of the teenage anorexic or bulimic girl and indeed we have a number of boys in that situation.

Obesity in children has become a serious issue. When I was a medical student – and indeed a young doctor – to see type 2 diabetes patients in their teens was most unusual. I do not remember seeing one case and perhaps Senator Fitzpatrick does not either. Tallaght Hospital now has a clinic for type 2 diabetes adolescents. This is the type of diabetes associated with obesity and inactivity. Shortly, we may have more teenagers and children with type 2 diabetes than with type 1, the genetically derived variety we are more used to seeing. This is a part of the Minister of State's survey which has a very practical implication for children and I would like it to be publicised to a greater extent. Children should be asked what we can do about this issue which is a sensible part of the strategy.

Perhaps Members saw a recent television programme called "Fat Club" in which a dozen seriously overweight people banded together and undertook a weight loss regime. None of them seems to be doing frightfully well and I am not surprised because if the sergeant major in charge were dealing with me I would not do too well either. Every so often they report on their progress, but they do not appear to have been asked how they felt they could best lose weight. The Minister of State has suggested that we must ask children more about what we can do for them and that would be useful.

We have done a fair bit of research in this area already. In 1990, a Dr. Watson in Cork documented that Irish children's aerobic fitness level was 80% of that of their European peers. That is very bad. They do less physical education in schools than children in other European countries. There is a considerable amount of literature available to show that the relationships between physical activity and television watching and body weight and fatness in children go hand in hand. Children watch television when there is not much else they can do. I remember when my own children were small that if one suggested any other activity to them, they were much more inclined to take that up.

The issue of the lack of recreational facilities, which has been brought forward in the strategy, is extraordinarily important. It is very serious to hear Senator Ridge saying that a school built 32 years ago is still without a sports hall. The problem is one of departmental co-ordination. Here is the Department of Health and Children trying to do something about recreational facilities for children in what, from Senator Ridge's description, is obviously a deprived area, yet the Department of Education and Science has not built a sports hall at the school. How on earth is one to offer recreational activities, particularly to teenagers, unless there is somewhere for them to take place?

The surveys of what children eat are very important. A survey done by Dr. Broderick and Dr. Shiel at St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra showed that the diet of those in fifth class in primary school was not what one would have hoped. Despite that and the fact that most of the children there were very inactive, 10% to 15% described themselves as being on a diet. We need to do a great deal of research in this area. It will be remembered that last year a major all-island nutritional survey looked at what adults eat. We did not come out of it very well. Very high fat and carbohydrate intakes were indicated. We have relied far too much and for far too long on medical research supported by pharmaceutical companies. They, of course, are not going to undertake research in this area, therefore departmental support must be sought to facilitate research into the nutritional intake of these children, their levels of physical activity and how they think these can be improved.

I spoke to a teacher from the Tallaght area who told me that she has great difficulty in getting teenage girls to become involved in PE. We discussed whether it might be better if they did dancing. One must listen to them and hear what they have to say. Dr. John Nolan in the metabolic research unit in St. James's Hospital recently pointed out to me that when he compares work he did in California with that which he has done here, he finds that our children are nearly in worse circumstances. This is all part of a world-wide plague. The increase in type 2 diabetes is associated with obesity and lack of exercise, but there is no need for us to sink under the waves. We could take the lead in trying to stop what is happening.

What are we going to do about finding a home for the community games? There are refugees in Mosney, but the community games have nowhere to go and they have represented tremendous work over many years. I support the Minister of State's statement that we need far more co-ordination among Departments and I support Senator Cox's comments about advertising. The Nordic countries are much stricter about the advertising they permit on television. The fact that we get British television here is no reason for us not to make an effort in that area. The distorted body image which is described as desirable is no less than an exploitation of children who at the same time are encouraged to eat every sort of fast food available. This is important not just physically, but also psychologically because no child likes to be fat and inactive. They end up being bullied and I congratulate Dr. Mona O'Moore at Trinity College, Dublin on the work she has done regarding bullying, which is an issue we should take up again.

I congratulate the Minister of State on the progress made regarding pornography on the Internet. I am sorry I was not able to attend the briefing on Tuesday morning at which progress on the report was outlined. When people like me began to say that something had to be done about pornography on the Internet, we were told it was impossible. The first meetings I went to in Helsinki and Stockholm were, however, greatly encouraging. Of course it is not impossible to address this issue. Nobody wants their children to look at pornography on the Internet and no server wants to become known as a site of pornography because it is not a good way to attract advertising. In this area, again, there is a need for co-ordination among Departments.

I recently received a complaint about pornography in e-mails. I was very flattered that the person who wrote to me assumed my knowledge of computers and e-mail was as great as his. He spoke a lot about cookies and spam. The European Commission and the European Parliament have had debates on this issue and there was a move at one stage to call for a ban on unsolicited commercial e-mail, commonly known as spam, some of which is very unsuitable. They, unfortunately, failed to get support for an option to be taken up in Europe, whereby one had to opt in to receive these commercial e-mails. Support was eventually garnered for an opt-out, though some countries such as Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany and Italy have supported an opt-in for such e-mails and have passed opt-in regulations on spam. Unfortunately, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment did not support that option because it said it would interfere with commerce. Germany is a commercial country, as are Finland, Denmark, Austria and Italy. They are very important economies and if they feel they can cope with not getting unsolicited e-mails which may contain unsuitable material, I do not see why we could not. Perhaps that could be addressed.

The Minister of State spoke of the need to take a holistic approach to children, which is absolutely correct. I was particularly concerned last year during the debate on the Mental Health Bill. There is one more thing the Minister should try to do before she moves on to higher places. We did not succeed last year in getting separate mental health facilities for children and adolescents put on a statutory footing. It is one of the most important deficiencies in the Mental Health Bill, not one line of which has yet been brought into play. I ask her to do something about that because fewer than 300 children are admitted as in-patients every year, but they are admitted to adult psychiatric wards.

Young people, who were patients as children or as adolescents, contacted me before that Bill came before the House to see if I could do anything about ensuring there were separate facilities for children. They did not ask for compensation for themselves or anything else. They just wanted separate facilities because they said it was a terrifying experience being in with psychiatrically ill adult patients. I hope the Minister of State applies pressure on the Department of Health and Children, although this also involves another Department. It is difficult for the Minister of State because she must go from one place to another to try to move her strategy forward.

Regarding the Children Bill, as the Minister of State will be aware, I very much regretted that children, who were put into care because they probably were being neglected by their parents, did not have the same statutory safeguards as children who were put into detention. For example, the places for children who were neglected would be inspected periodically, whereas the places of detention would be inspected every six months. Every pressure must be put on all the Departments so they know there are provisions under the children's strategy which the Minister of State expects them to fulfil.

Senator Ridge spoke at some length about teenage sex and pregnancy. Unfortunately, there is a very high rate of teenage pregnancy. There was a tragic case recently where a 15 year old had a concealed pregnancy, delivered unaided in her own bedroom and some days later a stillborn child was found in her wardrobe, but we are not even talking of children from really deprived backgrounds where something like this can happen.

Schools must be investigated to see what they are doing under the sex education programme. One teacher told me that whenever he had to give any sex education programmes, he sent all the boys out to play football. That was not very helpful because boys are involved in teenage pregnancies as well. We want to know what is happening in that regard too and, therefore, it is important that the Minister of State asks the Department of Health and Children to look at this issue.

One other place from which I would like to see children's voices reported is the children and family courts. As the Minister of State will be aware, these children have to be heard in camera. That rule is very strictly enforced – apparently it must be at present. Over a year ago the Courts Service appointed a barrister who was to produce anonymous reports on cases where it was important to read what children said in court. In the family courts, more than just the children would be reported, but the Minister of State should do something about this because we do not know if their voices are heard at all in separation issues or in divorce proceedings. We do not know what is happening in the children's courts at all. Therefore, will the Minister of State also consider if she can bring forward the necessary legislation to allow this anonymous reporting?

The Minister of State said in her report that we must put special emphasis on children with disabilities and she is right. We have a huge responsibility to do something in this area because the number of children with disabilities in this country is high. To my horror, I discovered the other day that our dreadful waste management policy, or our lack of policy, may be important in this regard. There is a pan-European report which showed that mothers who lived within three kilometres of a hazardous waste dump, that is, in the case of this country, most waste dumps, were more likely to have children with disabilities than those who lived between three and seven kilometres from them. Perhaps by our dreadful lack of action over the decades in dealing with waste management we have inadvertently contributed to the number of children being born with disability.

There is a need for a cross-departmental approach and it will not do to leave the Minister of State with the strategy in her hand. Ministers must back her up on this issue. I am sure that any of us who can do anything to help the Minister of State will do so. I will certainly do as much complaining as I can because sitting and looking at the strategy will not achieve anything. The Minister of State must get her colleagues to enforce what she has brought forward.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

I have been listening to the speeches over the past hour or two and most of what I wanted to say has been said. It has been a very good debate on the Minister's report. However, there are a few points to which I would like to allude. When I first came into this establishment, for my sins, I was appointed to chair consideration of the Child Care Bill. It was the first Child Care Bill since 1908 and it had been languishing on Second Stage in the Dáil for eight years, mainly because Deputies at the time did not feel they could strike any balance or agreement on Committee Stage on how to deal with the problems children faced and how to modernise the approach to them. That was one issue at the time.

Some years previously the Rotunda Hospital set up a sexual assault unit to validate the claims of sexual assault against women. They found, literally overnight, that they were trying to validate the claims of assault, be it sexual or otherwise, against children. A problem which we might collectively have known about was suddenly evident in a practical way before our eyes. There was, in the Ireland in which we lived, a tremendous number of cases of assault against children.

We have moved on in the past 11 years. Stones have been lifted on the Ireland of yesterday and we now know what went on. This is what has galvanised legislators in all parties into considering how childhood is managed in Ireland with a new zeal and a new open mind. The first thing we have done collectively is to realise that we did not have all the answers. In fact, we did not know all the questions before we even tried to find answers to them.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin. For me, one point that jumps out of her speech is the proposed key measure of including a national longitudinal study. Only the State has deep pockets and only the Civil Service, due to its ongoing nature, can sustain it. While studies have been done, as Senator Henry stated, they were short snapshots taken at a particular point in time. We need a longitudinal study spanning 20 years or more which would cover generations rather than just a few years. I hope that these studies will be published at regular intervals, if only to serve as tools to educate the public about what is going on and the needs of children.

Other matters were mentioned in the Minister of State's speech. She mentioned Dáil na nÓg, which is a good development, but the people who make it into the Dáil or any meeting tend to be articulate and able to speak up for themselves and others. The tenor of the Minister of State's speech, if not stated directly, was the need to reach the children who are marginalised and kept out of the main layer of society. We only see them when they are in trouble and end up in court or in remand homes. These are the people to whom we have to reach out.

Senator Ridge made a good suggestion and it is one that needs to be teased out. She spoke of parenting courses in schools. That is a good idea, but parenting courses should start with parents, not with children. I can see the point she is trying to make but I can also see one of the downsides where a child goes home from a parenting class and tells his or her parents that the teacher has told him or her that they are defective in providing the upbringing. Of course the child will not say it in those terms but it could cause pressures and tensions.

Senator Henry spoke about eating disorders. She has a deep insight into that subject and I agree with everything she said. One of the biggest disorders we face in this country is drinking disorders and over-indulgence in alcohol, with the effect that has on family life. Part of the longitudinal study could look at that to establish what kind of homes damaged children come from. I am sure it will be addressed in that study. Most Deputies, Senators and councillors will say that the streets of Irish country towns on weekend nights can be as dangerous, if not more dangerous, to life and limb than the streets of the city of Dublin. There are many fights and rows and all of them are drink or drug fuelled. Many people cannot remember the following morning that they were involved in a fight and only the evidence of the injuries they have sustained brings to their notice that they have been on a binge and created a lot of trouble.

If we are to have a parenting course for parents – this was alluded to by some speakers – we will have to tie it in with more time off work for either one or both parents. There must also be extra child benefit. This is a long-term objective but one that will have to be looked at. Many parents are under great pressure to pay their mortgages and hold down two jobs. If both parents are out of the house for long stretches of the day something will have to give at some point in a child's development. I am sure the Minister of State will look at this in the context of the next budget or in future plans for children's care.

When I chaired Committee Stage of the Child Care Bill it occurred to me that maybe our Departments are more focused on systems than people. As far as I am concerned, the three major Departments of State are Health and Children, Education and Science and Social, Community and Family Affairs. If one attends health or education meetings, civil servants provide strategies and systems but the personal focus is missing. Maybe we should rearrange these Departments and establish Departments of children, adults and senior citizens. I am told that would be impractical and I can see many of the impracticalities. Unless we start focusing on that people will suffer. The Minister of State has a background in education. We should look at our schools as community centres. They should be open for more than school hours, for 14 hours or more per day. That would allow the whole community to make use of the facilities when the children are not using them. Many of them have fine facilities likes games halls and some of them have swimming pools but they are closed to the public and not in use.

Both I and the Cathaoirleach were raised in an authoritarian age where one did as one was told. The general rule was "Do as I say, not as I do." An entire generation threw that away and allowed their children to be raised much more permissively than they were themselves. We may be paying for that now but the cycle may be coming around. The daughter of a person who was very prominent in public life told him that she would not allow her children to be raised the way she was. He had been raised in the authoritarian era and had been much more permissive with his children, as I assume I was.

I welcome the Minister of State and thank her for the commitment, drive and energy she has brought to her brief. Children are the most important group in any society.

Mr. Norris

I also welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate her on her document and policies. She is clearly the correct Minister to be in charge of this area. I was a little sorry that some of my colleagues attempted to introduce a slightly sexist element in this debate by saying that only the women were here and the men were not interested in the subject. I do not think that is true. Sometimes I hesitate to speak in this area because I am not a parent. I think parents have a much keener insight into this area. At the same time I do not undervalue the importance of it for the children and the future of the country. In the past men have been culturally excluded and that is a great pity. It is very much in the interests of a child to have the influence of balanced parenting in which both parents take a role. Parental leave and other such measures are extremely important.

One of the things I delight in seeing is the change from when I was young and men were diffident about their children. They thought it was unmanly to be seen pushing a pram. Nowadays men can be seen in the supermarkets with papooses slung over their shoulder, pushing a pram and buying Pampers. That is absolutely wonderful, balanced and natural. Let us not set up an opposition in a debate like this between the polarities of parenthood, the fathers and the mothers. If there has been a culturally determined absence of the father, which is regrettable and negative for children, rather than criticising that we should be encouraging men. We should do everything we can to foster the participation of both parents in the upbringing of children.

This is a very good document but it is principally aspirational. It provides a context in which a discussion can take place and decisions can be made. Of course that has its place but it would be good to have decisions in the future. Some of the material is expressed in general terms. I agree that children are to be encouraged to enjoy their childhood and that they should be listened to. On the other hand, life is complex and I do not think we do children any favours by excessively pampering them and trying to protect them from the realities of life. I am sure that is uppermost in the Minister of State's mind. When people are exposed to a certain amount of rough and tumble, infection or a couple of cuts and scratches, their systems build immunity. If children are too cosseted in privileged schools and then sent out into the real world they could get an awful series of knocks. We must be realistic.

Of course we listen to children. I welcome this and think it is extremely important. I was brought up in an age where children were literally seen and not heard. It is about time we did hear them. That does not mean we always have to agree with them. It does not mean that they are not occasionally naughty, difficult or problematic.

We also have to address the parallel issue of discipline. Corporal punishment has been removed from schools and that was probably right. I attended two schools. One was a boarding school where there was horrendous and excessive violence against the pupils, some of which, as adults nearing 60, they still remember with fear. That is a terrible legacy.

On the other hand, discipline is necessary and I come across from time to time gangs of little brats aged about eight years where I live who break into car parks and set cars on fire. If one looks threateningly at them, they say: "You watch it. I'll get the guards on you. I'll tell my parents." They know the law exactly and they can intimidate adults in quite an aggressive way. I have to say, even though I know I should not, that there are times when I would love to give them a good root in the bum. If I yielded to that temptation, my feet would not have touched the ground before I was in court. We have to address the sophisticated problem of how one produces discipline without threat for difficult children who may come from a problematic background.

The teachers in the second school I attended were motivated by a love of their subjects and they wanted to communicate that. They never had to raise a hand. I recall the English teacher, in particular. All he had to do was raise an eye brow and the class went silent. That is real authority which comes from the presence of the teacher, not the threat of a stick.

Investment is needed in particular areas because it is very cosy to talk about children enjoying their childhood. If one comes from the north inner city, for example, one's chance of enjoying one's childhood is considerably reduced because of the conditions that exist there. The Breaking the Cycle programme in primary schools is wonderful. I visited the one in Marlborough Street and it was superb. Here were the most marvellous children, beautifully dressed and presented, intelligent, quick, articulate and hungry to take part in the education system. It was also wonderful to see them growing their little garden. That is what investment can do and it is worth it, but why stop at the end of the primary cycle? An appetite has been encouraged in children and they are disappointed just when their minds are ready to explore the realities of life.

Recreation has been mentioned and, again, it is most important. I spoke at the launch of Bill Cullen's book, It's a Long Way From Penny Apples, and I met many of his old neighbours who lived in the area in which I now live. They spoke about Brúgh Muire, other youth groups and community action efforts, but said there was nothing there now. They used to take up boxing, model aeroplane making, dressmaking and cookery. Every night there was something to do to take children off the streets, but there is very little now. There are not many playgrounds in the area, so children are on the street getting into mischief and being exposed to the dangers of drugs. The House must strongly support the Minister of State in a co-ordinated attempt with other Departments to put massive investment into these areas. It is extremely important that we do this.

Drinking among young people is also a problem. They are drinking at an increasingly younger age. Some attempt is being made by publicans to address this, but it will need to be monitored. People are also taking up smoking at a younger age. I am glad that in Lucky Duffy's in my area, I constantly see Patty Duffy telling young people that she will not sell them cigarettes and asking them to produce their identity card. That is great, but many retailers are not doing it. Many are selling cigarettes to kids and children also experience peer pressure to smoke.

The adventure of childhood is also reflected in children's literature. I pay tribute to CLAI, the Children's Literature Association of Ireland, which involves people like Robert Dunbar, Mary Murphy and Marie Heaney, because it provides an adventure to children. We underrate the significance and importance of well written children's books and I am glad that we have a marvellous tradition in this regard, for example, through the books of Patricia Lynch, who enlivened my childhood wonderfully. Harry Potter is popular at the moment. I was ill in Jerusalem and my friend Ezra's nephew, Shimi, was learning English using Harry Potter books. I had heard something about J. K. Rowling and thought it rather boring. I was fascinated and I think it cured me so I sent for the other three books.

Senator Fitzpatrick raised the question of child sexual abuse and I would like some indulgence on this because I want to place clearly on the record that I find it abhorrent in every way, but it must be addressed with the sobriety, balance and clarity that the Minister of State brings to such issues. It is always dreadful to abuse children and there is no excuse for it. However, it is important that we recognise that people are having sexual relations at a younger age. We have done so in legislation but we have not just put in an age of consent. Where there is a very close relationship in age, for example, 16 and 18, the Oireachtas, in its wisdom, has allowed some flexibility to a judge to determine that these two young people experimenting should not be subject to the criminal sanction of being sent to jail and that is right. I am also obviously totally against incest. One must be very careful raising these issues in public because they are so easily misinterpreted.

I say again soberly and responsibly in this House that paedophilia is a desperate thing but we must understand and address it in terms of a rational, mature debate. There is a spectrum in this regard. There is a substantial difference between, at one end, a teacher putting his hand on a young person's leg in a class – it is not right as it may be damaging – and the abduction, rape and murder of a two year old at the other. If people cannot see that, then we are living in a hysterical society.

I do not want what happened in England, which was fanned by the flames of the popular gutter press, to happen here. The clinic of a paediatrician was burned to the ground because the idiots on the ground did not know the difference between paediatrics and paedophilia. A man was named and shamed because he had the same name as a paedophile. He had never touched a child in his life but he was taken out and battered to death. A well-known television journalist took pictures of her kids on bath night, sent them to Boots to be developed and Boots sent them to the police. She was arrested and the children were interrogated, but there was nothing in it. That will damage those children.

Let us keep the sanctions and the taboos that we regard as necessary but, for God's sake, let us not be afraid to discuss these things in a way that will help to protect children and adults from false accusations.

Ms Leonard

I welcome the Minister of State to the House to discuss this important strategy. It is the first time such an initiative has been taken regarding the future of children. The Minister of State outlined the strategy's goals and objectives and I compliment her on the initiatives that are being taken. More importantly, I compliment those who contributed to the development of the strategy because children traverse every walk of life and every aspect of their lives must be encompassed in such a strategy.

It has too long been the case that children should be seen and not heard, as Senator Norris pointed out. Children have often been ignored by State bodies and have been treated as miniature adults. However, they are individuals in their own right and their needs and requirements are totally different from those of adults. That must be recognised.

The mission statement of the strategy lists everything we want to achieve. It states: "An Ireland where children are respected as young citizens with a valued contribution to make and a voice of their own; where all children are cherished and supported by family and the wider society; where they enjoy a fulfilling childhood and realise their potential." If we were to make a wish for all children, that is what it would be, that they would fulfil their true potential so that they may contribute to society and be happy in it.

The greatest strength of our society has been, and I hope will be despite its changing nature, the strength of the family. This was always known as a country of large families and wide family circles. Huge changes have taken place in recent years in the composition of families. We must be conscious of those and work towards developing policies which address the needs arising from such changes. We must have family-friendly policies across the board, especially for working parents.

A report was issued in the print media yesterday about the problems families experience when both parents work. It was interesting to note – Senator Norris referred to this – the reaction of employers in the sense that it was unheard of for fathers to seek part-time work or job sharing where they wanted to assist in the raising of their children, whereas it was acceptable for mothers to seek that type of work arrangement. There is no reason the father should not be the primary carer. There is no doubt that, at this stage, the mother is the primary carer.

Another interesting fact in the research was that, where both parents worked, eight out of ten mothers said they experienced difficulties in their marriage as a result. We must seek to assist mothers and fathers who want to work and take part in the raising of their children. I believe it is essential for one parent to be at home as much as possible because that is the bedrock upon which a child can become well developed, partake in society, interact and develop to his or her full potential. It does not matter who is the primary carer, rather that there is one. We must develop policies within employment to allow one parent be at home as much as possible to provide that solid background for his or her children.

It must be acknowledged that many changes have taken place in the composition of families. It does not matter what that composition might be, however. Happiness is the most important thing. Changes have taken place in recent years in Departments to try to improve structures in line with the emphasis placed on families. As spokesperson on social affairs, I highlight the contribution of the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs in assisting families. The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was in the House recently discussing the Family Support Agency Act. He has also introduced similar legislation aimed at empowering families and communities to deal with their problems locally and to provide parents with relationship problems with a means to deal with those problems in a non-adversarial way. Reconciliation is possible but it is not the only solution. Very often the only one is for parents to separate. The Family Support Agency Act has placed marriage and relationship counselling on a statutory basis. This assists in the establishment of a child-centred set-up which also allows parents separate in a non-adversarial way. That is as important as providing a framework for families where the parents do not have problems.

Other speakers mentioned sport. I have an interest in it and am a firm believer that, for children who take part in sport from an early age to the point where they become competitive, sport can, with the family, be the principal means by which they develop to their true potential. Not only do they develop physically and healthily, they also develop socially because sport is about social interaction. They may develop a competitive instinct and determination, but sport also helps them with social interaction. It also helps children in their mental development. Huge amounts of money have been invested in the development of sports facilities throughout the country.

Sport should form part of developing the strategy for children, although I am aware it is not part of the remit of the Minister of State. I cite the example of the Community Games. I was fortunate as a child to participate in the national finals in Mosney. That is probably the greatest experience a child could have. For the first time one is away from home with thousands of other children. While one is there to compete to the best of one's ability, participation in the event itself is probably the most important element. My greatest childhood memory of participation in sport is what I achieved in Mosney and my participation in the Community Games.

Unfortunately, we all know it is becoming increasingly difficult to find volunteers and that each local club is depending to a greater extent on a few people to do the work of preparing children for the Community Games or whatever sport. Many volunteers are needed because of the many sports in the games. While a national grant is given to the event, unfortunately very little funding is directed at local and county level. It is like the GAA or any sporting organisation. They need money to run the organisation nationally, but children need to be nurtured and developed in the sport locally.

Even that, however, is not the main task. It is maintaining their interest in it when they have many other interests. Other Members mentioned drink, drugs and smoking, some of which are taken up by children when they are in their early teenage years. It is important at this stage to keep children involved in sport. Unfortunately, because of financial difficulties, it is difficult for each county Community Games organisation, which I cite as an example because I know them well from my participation, to continue doing what it has done for years. I know there are people involved throughout the country who want to continue to be involved, but it is becoming more difficult for them. Other Members mentioned funding for the strategy in general. In the context of sport, the emphasis must be placed on local groups to ensure they can continue the good work they have done for many years.

Credit must be given to the two Ministers for Education and Science in the life of the Government for the huge emphasis they have placed on caring for children within the education system, especially disadvantaged children. Other Members mentioned the Breaking the Cycle scheme. Much work remains to be done but we do not give credit for what has been done. Improvements which have taken place include the increase in the number of remedial teachers and resource teachers, the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio and the provision of extra resources to deal with children with specific needs, including Traveller children, non-national children and children with disabilities. These extra resources allow for the integration of these children with others and eliminate much of the disadvantage they suffer. I commend the Minister for Education and Science and his predecessor, but I accept that much remains to be done.

We have seen a huge increase in the number of educational psychologists but we need an even greater increase. In some parts of the country schools depend on one psychologist to cover a huge area and, unfortunately, the services of psychologists are very much required. I appeal to the Minister of State to continue this good work. If problems are identified and addressed early, children can be given the best possible chance to fulfil their true potential, which is the main purpose of the strategy.

I spend some time assisting my many nieces and nephews with their homework and I have found that the education system has changed greatly since I went to school. I do not know of any child in my locality who hates school. While we may criticise our education system, we must give credit where it is due. The days of reading, writing and arithmetic have gone and the teaching methods now employed in primary schools concentrate on the enjoyment of work. Emphasis is placed on play, drama, music, sport and art and children are allowed to develop and to discover their talents at an early age. Huge improvements have also been made in second level education. There has been a move away from the old totally academic approach. This is a good thing because not every child is an Einstein and each child must be treated as an individual.

I do not have time to say as much about the health aspects of the strategy as I wished. I welcome the strategy. The greatest difficulty will be its implementation. I agree with its local and national objectives but I am concerned about the use of the county development boards to implement the strategy at county level. The boards have been given a great deal of work in recent months and I am fearful that if they are given too heavy a work load they will not give priority to something as important as the national children's strategy. While the county development boards will include members with a specific interest in children, they will also be responsible for the environment, housing and many other areas. It would be a great pity if the children's strategy did not receive the attention it deserves because it can do so much to improve the lives of children and that is our objective. Funding has been set aside for the strategy and I hope it will filter down to local level. However, I have some fears in that regard.

Mr. Costello

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. It is particularly pleasant to welcome a Minister of State with special responsibility for children. The appointment is long overdue and the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, who has experience as a teacher, is well-qualified for the job.

I am also pleased that we are discussing a national children's strategy. We have never had a strategy which looks at the question of child rearing and children's needs at all levels, going beyond the strictly educational sphere. We have not put structures in place to look at the child in a holistic fashion from birth and it is important that we do this.

The Minister of State's proposals are very welcome. She proposes the establishment of an ombudsman for children. Bringing 2,500 children together in Dáil na nÓg was an excellent idea. It is important to speak to children about their needs and, as the Minister of State said, they were well able to tell her what they needed. The establishment of Dáil na nÓg on a local basis is also a good idea. I agree with Senator Leonard that the county development boards may not be the right model for this development and it might be best left to the local authorities to implement the idea through area committees or SPCs. The county development boards have the necessary structure because they liaise with community organisations, but I believe one of the other bodies, which deal with matters on the ground, would be more effective. The area committees know the needs of communities on the ground but the SPCs might be the best body in the short-term. It may be best left to each local authority to decide how to implement the strategy. The national longitudinal survey to establish the needs of children is also welcome.

Our past experience of dealing with children has not been positive. Ireland is renowned for the number of children and the care given to them by their parents. On the other hand we have been neglectful of children who are in need of support and care and often our State agencies have intervened only to penalise children rather than to support them. We have not provided supports for children who are disadvantaged and we have been too quick to use the health boards or the justice system to institutionalise children. We are now living with the consequences of those failings. Many of the reformatory schools had to close down and the fallout from that must now be addressed because of the abuses which occurred in them. The State took its eye off the ball and allowed religious and voluntary bodies to deal with issues which were its responsibility. Despite the claim in the Proclamation of 1916 that we cherish all the children of the nation equally, we have not done so.

The vast majority of children live and are well-cared for in happy, comfortable homes. However, others live in disadvantaged areas which lack proper infrastructure, suffer high rates of unemployment and lack the facilities which involve children and keep them off the streets. We must target these areas. My criticism of the document is that it is not focused or sufficiently targeted at the areas where the problems arise. State structures and agencies must target these areas and money needs to be spent to put facilities in place.

While we began with children of the school-going age of four, which is very low by international standards, we have not focused on what happens prior to that age on a national basis. There is no national strategy or structures for children under the age of four. Everything to do with crèches, child minding, playgrounds, play centres and recreational facilities is done on an ad hoc basis. At least from primary level onwards there is a structured process which can involve children for considerable periods. The burden is on parents but the difficulty arises where there are no mechanisms in place to help parents who are unable to cope because of financial constraints or other difficulties. A lot of work must be focused in this area.

We have left it to the voluntary sector to deal with most of these problems, whether through soccer clubs, boxing clubs or dancing clubs. This work is all done on a shoestring, with people working from hand to mouth. They cannot even get facilities to run matters on a daily basis. These people must do their own fund-raising, pay for their own coaches to travel to competitions and so on. People who must constantly cope with these difficulties find it very difficult to function properly.

We must refocus our agencies, particularly the health and education agency. The Department of Education and Science does not function other than within the narrow remit of schools. It is impossible to get representatives of the Department to attend local drugs task force meetings, partnership meetings or community-based organisations which are funded by the State. There is no structure in place to permit attendance at these meetings, which is not acceptable. These people must become more flexible. The health boards have a mechanism in place in this regard but they always send people who have no authority, so nothing ever happens. There is no involvement between the State agencies and what the Government is doing in terms of organisations. There is a degree of partnership but there is no involvement of State agencies in terms of most of the bodies that have been set up. There is no follow through on the issues. The State agencies must become more community-related.

Areas of disadvantage must be targeted. The current policy of introducing integrated area plans is a good one. These plans should involve all aspects, including housing, employment development and child facilities. They should link up with the primary schools, second level and third level institutions and job opportunities. The plans should ensure that crèches and play and recreational facilities are provided in areas that have been neglected traditionally. This is beginning to happen in areas in the heart of the city. The north-east inner city, with which I am most involved, is trying to do that on an all-encompassing basis. It is trying to look at all the needs involved, particularly the educational needs. However, this is run by the local authority which does not essentially have responsibility for providing services or child care for children. What will happen when the community development board looks at the range of recreational needs required? Will the funding be forthcoming? Most local authorities decline to provide playgrounds because of insurance liability and compensation claims? There is a problem whereby some local authorities will not touch this issue, while others do so to a limited degree. A number of issues need to be resolved to ensure services on the ground are adequate.

Reference was made to the Breaking the Cycle scheme. My experience is that it was the best initiative introduced in primary schools in disadvantaged areas because it slashed the pupil-teacher ratio. It meant that education in those schools became education rather than discipline. This initiative applies to 25 schools in rural areas and 25 in urban areas and the teachers agree it was the best thing that ever happened. The Minister, Deputy Martin, introduced Giving Children an Even Break. This applies at a later stage and it has not been as effective as the original initiative introduced by the former Minister, Niamh Breathnach. This should be looked at again because teachers on the ground say the initiative is the most effective ever put in place.

There are many areas which we could discuss, including homelessness and so on. Youth homelessness and youth suicide, particularly male youth suicide, is increasing. This is an unusual aberration for which we have statistics but no explanations. It is another area which needs to be considered. In general, the whole area of dealing with children in a coherent fashion is something the national children's strategy begins to address for the first time. I would like the strategy to focus more on areas where most of the problems arise. These areas have suffered from endemic neglect and State agencies have been in place more to penalise these children who have naturally reacted to the circumstances in which they have found themselves. These are the people who now populate our prisons and youth institutions.

There is another aspect to this, that is, Ireland is almost always top of the league in regard to drinking alcohol, smoking and drugs. We have a vibrant population which is experimenting with all these substances. There was a case recently where children and adults had to be served jointly in a public house. Too often the public house, particularly in disadvantaged areas, is the only centre of social activity. Children occupy these establishments as much as adults which is a highly undesirable recreational or social outlet for these children.

I welcome the strategy and look forward to its implementation.

Mr. Farrell

I welcome the Minister of State and the national children's strategy. It is the correct strategy because something must be done about many children. As Senator Costello said, only 10% or 15% of children need attention. I believe all children are born good. I accept some are born with their parents' genes and may be more difficult to manage for one reason or other. Some may be more brilliant or sports-orientated because of these genes but, by and large, most children are born good.

We must ensure that we deal with children's needs at an early age. It is easy to control a child at the age of five or six but it is impossible when they reach the age of 16. Years ago, the gardaí came to the schools three or four times a year to check the attendance. This was possible when we had smaller schools. Bigger schools have become unwieldy and lend themselves to this kind of problem.

Education was better when there was one teacher with two classes of infants and another with third, fourth, fifth and sixth classes because children learnt from one another. Teachers could control the children and they knew exactly where they came from. Today they do not know the parents or homes of the children. When I was going to school, teachers knew every parent and child. They would have known if a child had come to school without a breakfast and would have given them something to eat at lunch time. School in those days was a kind of home away from home. We talk of some of the bad aspects of school then, but I had a great school and I say a prayer regularly for my teachers. Thank God, they were brilliant.

The use of school buses etc. makes children more easily contaminated, if that is the right word. In big crowds, the biggest and best bully leads the crew. That did not happen when children went home from school on different roads.

There is much criticism of the system we had in the 1940s and 1950s – the industrial schools, which were closed. The idea was good, but the administration was bad. It was bad for two reasons. Children were being taken out of an environment and placed in indutrial schools. They were put in too easily, often for no real reason other than to have a crowd in the institution so it would get money from the Government. The Government of the day and the inspectors failed to police those institutions adequately. They were too big and unwieldy.

The secret is to get to the homes and the parents in the early stages. If children are in what are now known as dysfunctional homes, they should be placed in high-support hostels, with not more than ten others, for at least five days per week. They should be taken out of the negative home environment. If they are in a home where the parents are unemployed and where there are drink and drugs, it is a bad influence. No matter what one teaches those children in the five or six hours they are in school, for the remainder of the time they will be in a house where there is fighting and drink. Those conditions are not conducive to bringing up a child properly. High-support hostels should be considered when children are taken out of such environments.

We bring many children to the Houses of the Oireachtas and into the National Museum, which is very good. They should also be brought to some of the drug rehabilitation clinics to see what it is like and how they will finish up if they go down the wrong road.

Sometimes I think we went over the top with our employment laws, which do not allow us to employ children any more. Many children got up in the morning and did a paper round in their local town or messenger boy work in the evening. In the country, they went into the local shop at the weekends and gave a hand to clean up the store. They learnt a bit of commerce and they were meeting people. It was an education in public relations. While they did not earn a lot of money, they were out of harm's way. Now one cannot employ anyone under 16. This results in children between 12 and 16 with nowhere to go but the streets.

We were all children and realise it is so easy for them to go down the wrong road. It can happen to children with the best of parents and the best of homes. The old saying that idle hands find mischievous work to do holds true. There is really nothing to do for children between the ages of 12 to 16 and we should provide some kind of recreation for them.

I do not want to rehash any of the arguments but I will put some of my own ideas to the Minister of State. We should try to identify disruptive children at a young age and put them into a high- support hostel wherein they will get proper care. The hostels will be policed and ensure the children get square meals, good education and training. They could go home at the weekends. They have to be taken out of bad environments because if they are in a disruptive home environment, they can only be disruptive themselves because they see and know nothing else.

The strategy is great, particularly the idea of hearing the views of the children. Far too often and for far too long, children had to be seen and not heard. I welcome the fact that they are now being heard. As someone who has brought up a family – thank God they have all done well – and who now has grandchildren, I realise it is getting harder and harder to rear a family and keep them out of trouble. In the rural areas, we lost the local dance halls where children went out first. It was easy for parents to go and see what was happening and to keep control. There was not the money for them to get involved in drink and drugs, which were unheard of.

Now children have more pocket money. Quite often, parents give their children £5 to get a video. That is sad because what children want is to sit on your knee, be spoken to and be told a story. They want a bit of love and care, not to be turned into zombies watching television. If one goes into most houses one will see children lying on their bellies looking up at a television. There is too much television and not enough emphasis on talking to children and giving them a bit more care and attention. That is important. It is more and more important where there are children in disruptive homes. Unless we focus on children at a young age, we will never solve the problem.

Ms Hanafin

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na Seanadóirí as an díospóireacht breá a bhí againn anseo ar maidin. I thank the Senators for their kind personal comments and, more importantly, their support for the implementation of the national children's strategy. As I outlined at the beginning, it is a ten-year plan. The goals are ambitious, but the vision is one to which we can all subscribe. The holistic approach is one which we would all want to see developed. What is important is not just that we have that vision and the general aims and aspirations, but also the structures in place to ensure its implementation and that we keep in focus at all times the needs of those young children who are in care.

What is evident from the comments of all the Senators who spoke is that families need to be supported and children need to be supported within the context of their families. That is very much my philosophy and that of the Government. The fact that children need a home of their own with their own families is important. Where they cannot be supported in that regard, then they should be supported in another home and their special needs must be met.

I look forward to the publication of the national play and recreation policy. The Taoiseach has announced that there will be a dedi cated fund for it, as requested by Senators. I accept that there are a number of issues that need to be addressed around the country. Once these are addressed, we can set about creating a culture and environment where people will believe that we can provide play and recreation facilities, not just so the children will enjoy them but because it will also address a number of issues raised here by the Senators – health needs, sporting needs and social integration. Ultimately, they will prepare the children to be good adults.

There are over 1 million children in this country under the age of 18. Their needs are very diverse and complex. Because they traverse so many different areas of life, it is important that we bring all these together. Equally, it means that everybody must do their share. It means that parents, families, State bodies and voluntary organisations should work in partnership, recognising that each one has an important role to play and that one can complement the work of the other. At all times, in all of our actions, we should bear in mind that what we do keeps to the forefront the best interest of the child. It is not any one individual but the child that should remain our focus. That is the aim and intention of the national children's strategy. The Government is committed to ensuring that every element of it is implemented over the ten years. In the event of other parties coming into Government, I hope they too will ensure its implementation.

The commitment is there to support children and their families. This is one way to do it and agus tá súil agam gur féidir linn dul ar aghaidh as seo. Déanfaidh mé smaoineamh ar na tuairimí agus na smaointí a nocht na Seanadóirí agus gabhaim buíochas leis an tSeanad as ucht an díospóireacht seo a dhéanamh. It was useful to have a discussion here and to hear the wide range of views in the knowledge that we share the idea that our children and their lives is something for which we all need to work.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Farrell

Next Tuesday, 12 February, at 2.30 p.m.