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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Mar 2002

Vol. 169 No. 17

Courts and Court Officers Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is interesting that since 1990 there have been ten pieces of legislation which might broadly be described as courts related Acts. This Bill will be the eleventh in that list. The level of activity to which this testifies is indicative of the importance which attaches to the legal system in our lives. It is also indicative of the pace of change which has been a feature of the last decade in so far as that system is concerned.

Of the various changes which have taken place I highlight in particular the establishment of the courts service in November 1999 and the establishment of the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board in 1995. The Bill before the House builds upon the changes of the past and also contains certain elements which are more novel in nature.

First, I want to focus on two elements of the Bill which might be seen as developing a number of provisions which were contained in the Courts and Court Officers Bill, 1995. In that Bill, solicitors of ten years' standing were made eligible for appointment as Circuit Court judges. The perception, which has proven to be justified, was that solicitor judges would bring valuable insights to the Circuit Court bench given the particular role which solicitors generally play within our legal system. In a further reforming measure, provision was also made whereby Circuit Court judges of four years' standing would be eligible for appointment to the High Court or the Supreme Court. In effect, therefore, an indirect mechanism was provided whereby solicitors appointed to the Circuit Court bench might, over time, ultimately serve on the bench of both of those courts.

This Bill takes those provisions one step further in that it gives effect to a key recommendation of a working group set up to consider the question of qualifications for appointment as judges of the High and Supreme Courts. That recommendation was that suitably qualified solicitors should in future be eligible for direct appointment to those courts. While the Bill does not incorporate the full detail of the group's recommendations, which on closer examination were judged to be overly prescriptive, the broad outline of the recommendations is reflected in the basic policy thrust which underlies it.

Accordingly, the Bill specifies that practising solicitors of not less than 12 years' standing should be eligible for direct appointment to the High and Supreme Courts. The intention behind this provision is that over time the pool of suitable candidates for appointment to the superior courts will be enlarged and that the greater diversity in profile which may result will enrich further the judicial Bench.

In 1995 we also saw the establishment of the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board. A key function of the JAAB is to recommend to the Government the names of persons suitable for appointment as judges. While the advice of the JAAB cannot be binding on the Government because of constitutional reasons, the Government has direct regard to the names recommended in advising the President on the appointment of a judge and it is a matter of record that all appointments made to date have come from the recommended list.

Under this Bill the JAAB will have a new responsibility in respect of first-time appointments to the superior courts. When recommending a person for such an appointment, the JAAB should be of the opinion that the person in question has an appropriate knowledge of the decisions of the superior courts and an appropriate knowledge and experience of the practice and procedures of those courts. The JAAB is to have particular regard to the nature and extent of the practice of the person concerned in so far as it relates to his or her personal conduct of proceedings in the Supreme and High Courts. This personal conduct of proceedings which is under scrutiny can be as an advocate or a solicitor instructing counsel, or both.

Given the important advisory role which the JAAB has, it is considered appropriate to introduce additional elements of transparency and accountability into its procedures. To that end, the Bill provides that the JAAB will make an annual report to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. This report will set out details of the JAAB's activities and performance of its functions. It may include information relating to topics such as the number of persons considered by the board for appointment to the various judicial offices in the period concerned, the gender, professional qualifications and experience of those people and of those appointed to judicial office. The report may also include information relating to the procedures used by the board for examining applications and selecting persons it recommends to the Minister.

The Bill also provides for an important safeguard relating to the JAAB's report in that steps will be taken to ensure it will not include any information which discloses or could disclose the identity of persons considered by the board in respect of appointment to judicial office and who were not appointed to such office.

Some elements of the Bill might be seen as more novel in nature and were not provided for in the Bill as originally published – the Courts and Court Officers Bill, 1995. It is of importance that there be no unreasonable delay in the delivery of court judgments. Accordingly, we are providing for a register of court judgments. The 1995 Bill, as published, made provision for a judge of the European Court of Human Rights to be eligible for appointment to the superior courts. During the passage of the Bill, it became clear that there could in future be judges attached to other courts and tribunals who might equally be brought within this Bill's scope, for example a judge of the International Criminal Court. The Bill has been amended to address this point.

Part III deals with additional appointments. Part IV deals with matters pertaining to both the Circuit Court and the District Court and the question of the increase of jurisdiction. Part V deals with miscellaneous matters.

The Bill, essentially, is practical legislation designed to enhance the smooth running of the courts and to facilitate litigants in terms of access to justice. I commend it to the House.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome the Bill. On this side of the House we have no particular difficulty with it. The general content of the Bill is extremely welcome. It is very important that the courts are recognised as an independent arm of the State and that justice is seen to be done.

A number of improvements have taken place in recent years. The current mechanism of appointment has been taken somewhat out of the political arena, but there is still a certain amount of political input.

Following the Courts and Court Officers Bill, 1995, solicitors who have acted in the High Court can now be appointed as separate court judges, a very welcome development. The division that occurs between the professions of barrister and solicitor needs to be examined more closely. There is no need for such a wide distinction and there needs to be a closer level of interaction between the two professions.

I appeal to the Minister to examine the position on sentencing policy and consistency in sentencing across the courts, whether it be in the District Court, Circuit Court, etc. Repeatedly, we see instances in which there seems to be inconsistency in respect of the types of sentences applied by judges. This is unacceptable and there is a need for reform within the judicial system to address that particular aspect of the Judiciary. While I appreciate the Judiciary has to be independent and that the Minister and Department cannot have any specific input into it, the legal profession needs to address the need for consistency in sentencing by the courts, particularly within the District Court in respect of minor offences. Some such offences in the eyes of some judges seem to merit extraordinarily harsh sentences while in the view of other judges they merit minor sentences. This issue needs to be addressed.

I congratulate the Honourable Ms Justice Susan Denham of the Supreme Court on the work she has done in respect of the Courts and Court Officers Bill, and on the work she has done since she was appointed chairperson. She has brought a breath of fresh air. I appeal to future Ministers and Governments to look at the merit of women. Women in the Judiciary are few in number but their contribution in terms of law and reform within the justice system outstrips their numbers completely. They have made a remarkable contribution. In future, more women must be appointed and a greater balance must be achieved in appointments to the Judiciary.

The Minister's taking on board of the e-courts to be developed throughout the court system, which has been recommended by the Honourable Ms Justice Susan Denham, is extremely welcome. I look forward to seeing the manner in which that will take place. If it is to be effectively implemented, there will be a need—

(Interruptions.)

When the Acting Chairman and the Minister choose to listen to me, I will continue. As I said, it is important that those involved in putting the e-court system in place not only have legal expertise but also a combined expertise in e-commerce and in the entire technological field. I do not believe lawyers, singularly, have the necessary expertise required to properly adjudicate in that matter. There is a need to focus current law students in the dual direction of studying not only commercial law but also e-commerce. There is no point in saying that because one has a degree in commercial and company law one is an expert in e-commerce. Technology and e-commerce are independent areas of expertise. Those involved should be properly educated and equipped to go down that particular route.

With regard to judicial training and the preparation of judges, it is important to deal with all the new challenges that arise. The Minister has addressed that to a certain degree in the course of his contribution this evening. I look forward to hearing what will happen in the future regarding the type of training systems that will be put in place.

We live in a modern society. European law is increasingly becoming a feature of national law and, increasingly, European directives are becoming part of national law. The inter-relationship between the two is quite extraordinary. Also, the expansion of international law and the extent of the declarations we have signed up to over the years, be they UN declarations or otherwise, create a widened legal dimension. While we are now expanding the entire legal system in respect of its European and international dimensions, we need suitably equipped people to adjudicate in that area.

We can be proud of the people who have gone from Ireland to the European Court of Justice and elsewhere. They have acquitted themselves extraordinarily well. They have demonstrated an expertise, knowledge and ability to interpret and administer the law at a level that is second to none. For that reason we can be proud of those who have represented us on boards internationally in the past.

With regard to court facilities, the Minister was in my home town of Kilrush last Tuesday opening a refurbished courthouse. However, we need additional refurbishment across the country to modernise standards and ensure there are proper facilities where the public can have its wrongs redressed and where the practitioners can see that the law is applied according to proper up to date standards in what is now a buoyant economy. It is important that the dignity the law deserves is reflected in the type of accommodation in which it is administered. The courts service is doing a very good job and is addressing the aforementioned issue. It is a matter for the Minister to continue to provide funding to meet their requirements so our courts do not degenerate into extraordinarily bad condition and Third World standards, as some of our courts are in at the present. This is unacceptable. We should be proud of our heritage buildings in towns throughout the country. It is important that we maintain these traditional old buildings of which we should be proud because they will lend a greater hallmark of tradition and dignity to towns in the future.

Given the way in which, I hope, the Good Friday Agreement will develop in the future, there is an opening for the Minister to encourage greater interaction between the Judiciary north and south of the Border. I hope this issue will be addressed in the future. In the past we had to deal with extradition and other difficult cases. I hope a more friendly, co-operative and common bond will develop between the two areas in the future. I appreciate that the systems, North and South, together with the British system, are based on a common system and take a common approach to the law. We inherited this system from the British and we used it in a very formidable fashion in the Republic in the past 80 years. It is important this system continues in the future.

As time progresses the jurisdiction of the courts should be extended in relation to cases being adjudicated on in the Circuit and High Courts. There is a great need for an opening up between the two professions because there should be no such thing as two professions. There is almost an interest in the professions to main tain the status quo. I am not sure it is in the interest of the public that that division should continue ad infinitum. Most practising lawyers have similar training but the more academically inclined people will eventually end up in the Supreme and High Courts. There is a need to address this issue because the division is not necessary. That may not be a popular thing to say but I believe we must become more consumer-friendly. This is a small island country of just four million people and we sometimes have the trappings of the empire, for which there is no need. Justice can be seen to be done with a less complicated and pompous approach. The sooner we dilute some of the pomposity in the profession the better it will be for the system in general. I hope the Courts and Court Officers Bill will address that matter in the future.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a cur roimh an Aire to dtí an Teach so agus fáilte roimh an mBille seo freisin.

This is a very good Bill and I congratulate the Minister on the number of Bill he has brought through this House in the past five years. It was all very important legislation which has made Ireland a safer place in which to live and it will make it easier for people to get justice. I welcome in particular the fact that the current jurisdictions of the Circuit and District Courts were set in 1991. The increases now provided for are from £5,000 to €20,000 in the case of the District Court and from £30,000 to €100,000 in the case of the Circuit Court. This is very important because many cases taken in the Circuit and High Courts can now be heard in local courts. It would be a good idea to cap the number of legal people involved in these courts but I suppose that would not be possible. The legal profession currently commands a great amount of money. Of every £100 paid out in motor insurance, approximately £40 goes to the legal profession and £60 to the claimant. The Minister has done something about this issue which is very important. He is setting up a statutory personal injuries assessment board to decide issues of quantum in personal injuries arising from employers' liability and motor insurance claims.

This is a very important aspect and I hope he can ring-fence it so that the legal profession does not become involved. It is important to make people realise that by dealing with the personal injuries assessment board they will probably end up with a lot more money in their pockets than if they go through the legal system. While they might appear to get more in the courts, by the time the legal profession is paid they may not have as much as they thought in the first place. Very often when people receive an injury they go to their solicitor. The case can drag on for three to four years and very often these people have no wages for the duration of the case. The solicitor may ask them to sign a form, go to the bank and borrow some money. While they may agree to borrow so much from the bank, the form signed was an undertaking on the part of the solicitor that when the claim would come through the bank would be paid out of the claimant's cheque. By the time the bank is paid, including the accumulated interest, these people may find that they are left with a very small amount of money. The banks and lawyers get all the money.

It would be helpful if there was a faster way of pursuing claims. Very often claims are carried a bit too far. I have no doubt if I approached a solicitor after falling and damaging my shoulder I would probably get €25,000 or €30,000 from a local authority . I am almost handless but I have no intention of seeking compensation. I have always believed that people must take responsibility for where they walk. There should be some demarcation line in regard to personal and public responsibility. People should watch where they are walking. If they are stupid enough to fall and get hurt, as I did, that is one's hard luck. It is not right that lawyers should place advertisements enticing people to submit compensation claims. I would like to see some restriction on lawyers who encourage people to make claims by advertising that the first interview will be free and afterwards they will see what they can do. Most of these cases are settled out of court.

I have a problem with insurance companies which say it is cheaper for them to settle because they settle a multiplicity of cases. This is wrong. Young people nowadays find it very difficult to obtain car insurance and many firms can no longer afford to pay public liability. When I set up my business in the 1960s I had a filling station, garage and restaurant and I was paying £25 public liability. Today my family pays almost €100,000. I admit they have extended the business, but insurance costs have increased dramatically. People must realise that large claims will put firms out of business and put people out of work. I would like to see some restriction on the way in which money is squandered in relation to the courts system.

I am pleased the number of District, Circuit and High Court judges is being increased. A factor which militates against obtaining insurance is that it takes three or four years for cases to come to court. If cases could be brought to court quickly, it would make the process more efficient and reduce costs. In this country senior counsel, junior counsel and solicitors are involved in cases. Why is all this necessary?

I have had to give court evidence in a few cases and the advice from solicitors was not to settle because they would get you more money. As soon as they get to the steps of court, they recommend you settle for lesser amounts because they know once the case goes further, senior counsel and junior counsel must be paid. If it was settled out of court, on the other hand, the solicitors would not earn expenses. There is a racket going on in high places and unfortunately it is business people and ordinary tax payers who are taking the State to court.

It is important we make full use of judges. I welcome this Bill and I hope that the Minister, in some future Bill, will do something to cap the amount of money going to the legal profession. Young people in rural Ireland cannot get to work because it is impossible to get insurance given the high motor insurance costs. Insurance firms advertise all the time, but when you ring them up, they cherry-pick clients from whom they think they can make the most money. I bought my first car, a little Morris 8, for £25 in 1948. I insured it with Lloyds of London for £15, third party fire and theft, and I taxed it for three months for about £3.50. I had my car on the road for less than £50. Admittedly, I was only earning £50 a week at the time, but it was so easy to get insurance because we did not have the compensation culture that exists today.

The compensation culture originated in America and Britain and is now rife in this country. Something will have to be done to put an end to it. I had a couple of accidents but did not look for compensation because I think it is unjust. It may be legally right but it is morally wrong and I would love to see a cap on it. I welcome this Bill.

I welcome this very practical Bill which has a lot of excellent measures that should have been introduced sooner, including the provisions to allow solicitors to be judges and to deal with the division between the solicitor and barrister professions.

It is dreadful that we need so many judges. There is a great national appetite for litigation and it is extraordinary that life has become so centred upon the courts. Personally, my only involvement with the courts was in acting as an expert witness. I have always found courts to be rather intimidating places, but some people seem to have a great desire to go there. There is greater informal discussion between judges regarding sentencing policies and so on, but it must be extremely difficult for them to keep up with legislation and I hope they are given sufficient time to go on training courses, attend seminars and so on. We pass legislation here, but it is the Judiciary who has the responsibility of interpreting it and I hope they are given sufficient time to do so.

Many people have expressed concern recently about variations in sentencing policy. Senator Taylor-Quinn referred to this, and I am sure she was thinking of a rape case recently where the rapist got a suspended sentence despite threatening to kill the woman involved. The judge ruled that she had no other injuries, but if she had struggled and had her head beaten in or whatever, would that have made the whole process more acceptable? It seemed an extraordinary decision.

I am less than enthusiastic about rapists being allowed to give monetary compensation to vic tims rather than serve custodial sentences. It sends out a message that the rich can escape penalties while the poor cannot, even though the crime is equally bad regardless of who commits it. I am sure the Minister is well aware of the public's concern about this.

Senator Farrell talked about the difficulty of trying to reduce costs, and it is extraordinarily difficult to do so. My main interest is in medical litigation and the Department of Health and Children proposes to introduce, on 1 July, enterprise liability or indemnity whereby the Department rather than insurance companies will be liable for the costs of medical negligence cases. I do not know how this will work, but I hope the Department understands what an extremely tricky area it is entering into and the extent of the costs involved. The Department will have to employ experts and will have to be in the position of advising those individuals who are being pursued for negligence.

It is interesting to note that Dr. John Harding-Price, who was employed as a psychiatrist in this country despite being suspended by the General Medical Council in Britain, was yesterday acquitted of everything he was accused of. There was great uproar here about the South Eastern Health Board and the Irish Medical Council letting him work when he was suspended in Britain. We are very inclined to prejudge cases. This man managed to demonstrate his innocence even without the aid of a lawyer.

With medical litigation, we had hoped when the ruling regarding the exchange of expert witnesses came into being that there would be a reduction in costs. This is where both sides had to exchange the reports from their expert witnesses early in the case. Unfortunately, this seems to have been generally overlooked. In addition, plaintiffs are being allowed introduce a new expert witness on a totally different track if it discovered that the defendant's expert witness has undermined the original case.

This is a very difficult area which seems to be encouraging more and more litigation. Senator Farrell talked about lawyers luring people into court with the enticement of getting more money. I have had a great deal of information from insurance companies which tell me they try to settle long before a case goes to court, but on the steps of the court the settlement takes place because all fees are paid up to then. There are many more practising lawyers now than there used to be, but then we also have more courts and more judges. I hope we can call a halt to the amount of litigation that is taking place because it is costing the State an enormous amount of money.

I have had a motion on the Order Paper for some time which reads:

That Seanad Éireann, concerned that some of those involved in child custody cases before the Family Courts feel aggrieved about their treatment, asks the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to consider allowing some reporting of cases from these courts on an anonymous basis, so that the public may have a better knowledge of the workings of the courts.

Had I known that this Bill was coming forward, I would have asked the Minister to include legislation to deal with this issue. I am sure I am not the only Senator being contacted by people in relation to family law cases where they consider that they were badly treated. We cannot have any notion of how such people were treated because, quite correctly, family law cases are heard in camera. I have contacted the courts service about this and they told me that, over a year ago, a barrister was appointed to report anonymously from the family courts. It was anticipated that this would facilitate a greater understanding of the nature of family law cases. I gather the Attorney General advised that the in camera law is so strict that the barrister could not report and that additional legislation would be required to allow him to do so. Unfortunately, it is too late for me to propose an amendment that would allow such reporting to go ahead. Nevertheless, I hope the Minister will take this idea on board and act on it at a later date. Family law is a difficult area to discuss because all we can rely on for information is gossip and anecdote. A proper, anonymous report of cases from the family court would be extraordinarily useful in facilitating a greater understanding of the scope and judgments of the court.

I welcome this Bill and congratulate the Minister on it.

I thank the Senators who have contributed to this debate. This Bill is essentially a practical piece of legislation. It is worthy of enactment by virtue of the very real benefits which it will confer in relation to the smooth running of our courts system. It provides that solicitors may now be eligible for direct appointment as judges of the High and Supreme Courts. The monetary jurisdiction of the Circuit and District Courts have been increased to levels which are reflective of today's society. Additional judges are to be appointed to the High, Circuit and District Courts. County registrars are to be conferred with a range of additional and extended powers which will build on the foundation laid by the Courts and Court Officers Act, 1995.

The provision in respect of county registrars will simultaneously enhance the quasi-judicial nature of that role and reduce the workload of Circuit Court judges in routine administrative problems.

In relation to sentencing policy, an issue which has been raised a number of times, there is now a judicial studies institute which deals with judicial training. Consistency of sentencing is dealt with by this institute.

Regarding e-courts, I was recently presented with a report that considers the merits of estab lishing a commercial court in Ireland. It would be accessible electronically and could develop links with arbitration centres. The report and recommendations prepared by the committee on court practice and procedure, chaired by the Honourable Ms Justice Susan Denham of the Supreme Court, proposed that e-courts should be developed throughout the courts system. The committee found that a commercial court would underpin and reinforce Ireland's position as an e-commerce hub and recommends that a pilot commercial court be developed in the High Court.

Real advances have been made in the area of satisfactory facilities for litigants. There has been an improvement in the service provided by the courts to all those who engage in court related matters. The courts service building programme has resulted in the refurbishment of a significant number of courthouses in recent years. Indeed, I was in Senator Taylor-Quinn's home town of Kilrush recently, where I opened the refurbished courthouse. I said then and I say now that I have blazed a trail which many others will no doubt follow.

Some trail, Minister.

The Government has increased the financial provision for court buildings from €11.3 million in 1997 to almost €31 million in 2002. I am particularly pleased that Kilrush benefited from that. The courts service is very conscious of the need to preserve historic courthouses.

The enactment of this Bill will support the Judiciary, the courts service and, most importantly, the users of the courts. It is an important Bill, notwithstanding that it is composed of many diverse elements.

I thank the Senators for their contributions which have been most constructive.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

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