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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Mar 2002

Vol. 169 No. 17

Order of Business.

The proposed Order of Business is No.1, motion regarding the amendment to the terms of reference pursuant to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts, to be taken without debate; No. 2, motion regarding Council directive defining the facilitation of unauthorised entry, transit and residence returned from the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, to be taken without debate; No. 3, motion regarding Council decision on the strengthening of the penal framework to prevent the facilitation of unauthorised entry, transit and residence – returned from the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, to be taken without debate; No. 4, motion on Council regulation regarding third country nationals – returned from the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, to be taken without debate; No. 5, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001 – all Stages, with the contributions of spokes persons on Second Stage not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes; No. 6, Pensions (Amendment) Bill, 2001 – a Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil which will be taken at Report and Fifth Stages; No. 7, Competition Bill, 2001 – a Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil which will be taken at Report and Fifth Stages; No. 8, Courts and Court Officers Bill, 2001 – all Stages, with the contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes; No. 9, motion on the Council framework decision on combating trafficking in human beings, to be taken with debate, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes; and No. 10, motion regarding terms of reference for a tribunal of inquiry into Garda activities in County Donegal, to be taken with debate, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes. Business shall be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

I am glad the Leader is not here today because if he read out a list of ten items, he would claim it as a personal record and further proof of the great Government we have. At least we were spared that today.

I can do that as well.

It will be a busy day. When will the House sit again and what business will be taken between now and the end of the Seanad?

We should remind ourselves about the matters we take with and without debate. As an efficient method of discharging business, we have always operated on an agreed position that something referred to committee should be discussed at the committee and that the debate should not be anticipated in the House. However, when something comes back from committee, it should be treated like Report Stage of a Bill and people should be allowed to make a point if they wish. There should be communication with the Whips to establish if people wish to speak on a matter coming back from committee. Perhaps it has been disposed of at the committee, in which case we do not need a Report Stage type discussion. However, if people need to make further points, they should be allowed to do so. I do not want to make an issue about it today, but I do not want it to be taken for granted that we can take matters without debate. I do not know of anyone in our group who wants to make a point on these issues today as no one has communicated that to me, but I am not sure that people knew these issues were being raised today. I want to distinguish between matters coming back from committee and those going to committee.

I am unhappy with and cannot agree to the proposal to take all Stages of No. 5, the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It requires further discussion, thought and complex work on Committee Stage. I do not have any difficulty taking Second Stage and perhaps starting Committee Stage, but I do not agree with taking all Stages today.

Today's Order of Business takes the biscuit. The Deputy Leader has thrown in everything but the kitchen sink. Ten matters is the largest number we have had on the Order of Business. My main concern is that there are a number of substantial elements we have not discussed before. For example, we have not discussed the McBrearty affair in the House. We are setting up a tribunal to investigate that matter, but we need time to discuss it.

We are discussing that matter.

We are dealing with ten matters today. We do not have a considerable amount of time in which to reflect and deal with them. We are to discuss the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001, which deals with an issue of huge controversy at present. All Stages of that will be taken today without there having been any indication that this was to come before us. We are to discuss a motion on the combating of trafficking in human beings, something on which we have called for a debate for considerable time.

There is also a motion concerning the extension of the Flood tribunal, something that could have happened and was requested almost 12 months ago. It must now go through without debate. This is far too much to take in one sitting. It would be useful if the Deputy Leader of the House indicated if and when we are to sit next week. Some of these items could be dealt with next week rather than being rushed through today.

I ask the Deputy Leader to make time available before the House rises for the Easter recess for a state of the nation debate so that we can consider major issues such as health, education, housing and the economy.

I do not know what opportunity may be available in the coming weeks to address a debate that is raging at present in the media. The people have always been particularly generous in terms of making contributions to needy countries. The work of missionaries and NGOs abroad is well documented. The Government has also been generous in this regard. However, the current debate on which countries should have precedence is creating a great deal of confusion among the public. The net result of this might be that people do not provide money when it is needed. A debate in the Seanad might help to bring balance to this matter.

We were reminded yesterday of the extraordinarily high level of meat imports. Three years ago, the quantity of meat imported was about 65,000 tonnes; that figure now stands at 102,000 tonnes. It appears most of these imports find their way into the catering trade and the public health sector. Worries have been expressed, which I share, that much of this meat is not as stringently regulated in terms of quality assurance and traceability as that provided by Irish producers. We should debate this matter next week as I understand the Seanad is to sit for one day.

It is a serious issue. Irish producers operate under the most stringent controls, and rightly so, in relation to quality assurance and traceability. It is very difficult, however, to trace meat that originated outside the State, perhaps in Argentina. Such imported meat now makes up 25% of beef, 35% of pig meat and over 35% of poultry consumed here. For example, beef coming from Latin America—

We cannot debate the matter now, Senator. You have sought a debate and you have made the case for it.

Some countries from which we import meat do not have the same traceability rules as Ireland. It is incumbent on the authorities here to ensure that rules applied to our producers are applied to all countries from which we import. I hope we can have a debate next week on that issue.

I wish to refer to the ordering of business in the House. This is not critical of the Leader or the Deputy Leader but I was very disappointed at the scandalous behaviour of the Minister last night. It was childish to keep Members here until a very late hour on the understanding that the business was very urgent and that the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill, 2002 would not otherwise turn up in the Dáil today. It is not there in any case. Report Stage is not being taken until after the break. It is appalling that Members were kept here. My colleagues, Senator O'Toole and Senator Burke, managed to persuade the Minister to accept amendments, but there was no reporting of this at all. It did not appear on "Oireachtas Report" or in any of the print media. This is important and the people are entitled to know what the Seanad is doing.

That business is finished with and we cannot have a re-hash of yesterday's business.

The point I would like to make regarding today's Order of Business is that if this matter was so urgent, it would be on the Order Paper this morning, but it is not. That proves the point so effectively made by Senator Manning that the House was treated with contempt by the Minister and also, to an extent, by the media.

I realise that it is impossible to have a debate on foreign affairs before we break for Easter. However, we have been promised such a debate and presumably that will take place soon after we return from the Easter break. In light of the fact that there are significant developments regarding Tibet, will the Deputy Leader of the House transmit to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that, according to The Washington Post, countries of the European Union are released from their obligation to hold the line regarding China and Tibet? Some people have already made a significant advance in this area, particularly the Dutch Foreign Minister, who, at the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva yesterday, made a strong statement about the treatment of people in Tibet by China. He is able to do that while Ireland has a seat on the UN Security Council. In light of our continuing interest in Tibet, can we use this window of opportunity to sign and sponsor a motion in Geneva? It is most urgent that we do so.

I express my disappointment at the treatment of TG4 by some of our national newspapers, especially as it relates to the listing of its programmes in their television sections.

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business and has no relevance to it.

This is the only opportunity I have to comment on it. The space given to the programmes of TG4 is no bigger than a large postage stamp. It is a disgrace.

The way the business of the House has been ordered for the past few weeks is despicable. It brings the House into disrepute. We are not being covered by the media, as has been pointed out, issues are being forced through, and all Stages of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001, will go through the House today in a short time. That is not the way to do business. It has been pointed out in the Lower House that no consultation has taken place with outside groups that are affected by that Bill.

As has been said, there is a huge amount of business to be processed in the House today. I ask the Deputy Leader for a timeframe so that we can bring some structure to the day. Could he say, for example, that No. 7, the Competition Bill, 2001, will not be dealt with before 2 p.m. or 3 p.m.?

To answer the last question first, I cannot say that. Senator Manning asked about the proposals for the next sitting. It is proposed that the next sitting will take place on Thursday next at 10 a.m. It was suggested at the end of business last night that Report Stage of the Edu cation for Persons with Disabilities Bill, 2002, would be taken then. It is also intended to take the Civil Defence Bill, the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, the Medical Practitioners Bill and to take statements on the seventh progress report of the All-party Committee on the Constitution, the one that deals with matters relating to the Seanad. That is Deputy Brian Lenihan's committee.

That is a committee that excludes the Independents.

I am sure the Independents are capable of ensuring that they are not excluded. I have the utmost confidence in that.

Will the Deputy Leader find out about the foreign affairs debate?

Regarding the point made by Senator O'Toole about matters that come back from committees, I have made the point before that these issues are frequently treated comprehensively by the committees and there is no need to rehearse the arguments. However, I take the Senator's point and, on a case by case basis, it is reasonable that, in certain circumstances where it merits discussion, it should take place. What we are proposing today is reasonable in the sense that these matters have gone to the committees.

With regard to the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001, which was raised by Senator Costello, I agree that we have a comprehensive workload today. However, there is an obligation on us to complete the legislative programme set out by the Government. That is a difficult task and it is why we must sit again next Thursday. It is important that we complete the work and that this important legislation goes through.

Could we take the remaining Stages then?

I ask for the co-operation of the House with regard to that. We are taking No. 9, the trafficking issue, with debate. You will be the first to know, a Chathaoirligh, that to debate the issue of the Flood tribunal would lead to the possibility of intruding into the workings of the tribunal and you would be required to use your powers to remind the House that there should be no allusion to what takes place in the tribunal. It is therefore preferable to deal with this matter by motion and without debate.

Senator Ó Murchú raised the matter of overseas development aid and the related matter of private contributions. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, produced a report yesterday on overseas development aid but I take the Senator's point and he has made a reasonable case.

Senator Connor raised the issue of meat – beef, pigmeat and poultry – coming into the country from sources outside the European Union and particularly from the Far East or South America. I agree with the Senator. The traceability to which we have become accustomed is not evident in the case of meat coming from those countries. Consumers should be aware that when they buy Irish produce they are buying the best. This is a fact that should be promoted and I ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to relay those views to Bord Bia.

The House should debate the matter.

I take the point made by the Senator but unfortunately we have a crowded programme. I will see what can be done but I cannot give the Senator an undertaking.

This House will probably last until next July.

Senator Norris raised the matter of yesterday's business but, as the Cathaoirleach said, yesterday's business is yesterday's business and it is over and done with. I am aware that he and other Senators have been asking for a debate on foreign affairs and it would be desirable to have such a debate. However, as I explained, the legislative programme is a priority but I will see what can be done. In reply to Senator Norris's point about Tibet, I understand it is now up to individual countries to make clear their position on Tibet. There is no equivocation about Ireland's position but I will convey his views to the Minister.

I note Senator Glynn's point about TG4 and I accept that it should receive parity of esteem, if I can use that phrase, with other channels. Senator Coogan and several other Senators made a point about how the business of the House is arranged.

It is traditional before the Easter recess to thank all the various people associated with the Houses. As we are sitting next week it is probably not necessary to do so now but since this is probably the last occasion on which I will occupy this chair I would like to thank you, a Chathaoirligh.

The Senator could be back as Leader of the House.

I refer to the life of this particular Seanad. I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the manner in which you have conducted the proceedings over the duration of this Seanad. I thank your officials and the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I thank the House for the co-operation which it has always extended to me and I wish success to those who are contesting Dáil or Seanad elections. I hope that their hopes and ambitions will all be realised and that those who are retiring will have a happy retirement.

Order of Business agreed to.
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