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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 2002

Vol. 169 No. 23

Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Performance of Certain Functions) Bill, 2002: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am delighted to come to the Seanad, for the first time as Minister for the Environment and Local Government, to present to the House the Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Performance of Certain Functions) Bill, 2002. When he announced the composition of the new Government on 6 June, the Taoiseach placed strong and renewed focus on environmental sustainability. The fact that he has mandated the Department of the Environment and Local Government with the additional responsibility of protecting our natural heritage and heritage policy generally is consistent with this approach. It is a timely move, particularly in the light of the recent publication of the national heritage plan which my Department will implement, in line with a commitment in An Agreed Programme for Government.

There is widespread understanding of what is meant by our national heritage. It includes the natural environment like flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, with the built environment such as monuments, archaeology, streetscapes and more. Heritage is valued by the people not only for its intrinsic value, but also for its economic, cultural and recreational benefits. The recent publication of the first national heritage plan signalled a new and more coherent approach and provides a comprehensive strategy and framework for the protection and management of heritage. The Government policy statement on heritage, contained in the plan, states "it is an objective of Government to ensure the protection of our heritage and to promote its enjoyment by all." This underscores the recognition the Government accords to heritage, which is complemented by transferring responsibility to my Department, which retains its responsibilities for the complementary areas of protection of the environment, the planning system and local government.

It is appropriate that the Department with responsibility for local government will also take responsibility for heritage matters. Over the past decade the planning process, which is administered by local authorities, has become a central element in the protection of heritage. Amendments to the planning code in recent years, especially the provisions on protected buildings, have seen significant advances in the protection of heritage. The national heritage plan envisages local authorities taking a more proactive role in protecting our heritage, especially in broadening involvement at community level. The planning system is an important instrument for the delivery of sustainable development.

The division of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs – formerly the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands – for which I will assume responsibility is referred to as Dúchas – the heritage service. I will also be responsible for general heritage policy. I will use the term Dúchas to avoid any confusion in relation to names and responsibilities being transferred. Dúchas is that part of central government with overall responsibility for preserving the national heritage and promoting public interest in Ireland's rich store of national monuments, protected buildings and ecologically valuable sites. It has developed a body of expertise which has been put at the disposal of local authorities, An Bord Pleanála and the Environmental Protection Agency. Under EU and other international law, Ireland has certain legal obligations to ensure the protection of our natural and built environment. Dúchas and my Department have key roles in meeting these obligations.

As the pace of development has increased in recent years, the role of Dúchas has become increasingly important. If we are to achieve sustainable development, this role must be carried out in an efficient, open and transparent manner. Senators are aware that Dúchas is involved in the planning and environmental licensing processes in a number of ways. It is a statutory consultee when a local authority is preparing its development plan and has particular responsibility under the Planning and Development Act, 2000, in respect of recommending structures of special architectural interest for protection through the development plan. This function is one that will dovetail with the traditional function of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in overseeing the development plan process.

In addition, Dúchas is a statutory consultee in relation to planning applications which may impact upon protected structures, national monuments or other objects of archaeological, geological, scientific, ecological or historical interest, or which may have significant nature conservation effects. Planning applications for the relevant developments are assessed by Dúchas officials who have specific heritage expertise. It is not practical to expect each planning authority to develop the necessary expertise in these matters, as it is more sensible to have the expertise available centrally. This specialist service provided by Dúchas for local authorities, An Bord Pleanála and the EPA in relation to the protection of our heritage is vital. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure such advice is available from my Department as an input to planning or other licensing processes.

The Bill will amend the Planning and Development Act, 2000, the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992, and the Waste Management Act, 1996, to provide for the performance by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government of the functions transferred from the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, formerly the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. The Bill makes an identical technical amendment to one section in each in these Acts.

Section 30 of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, precludes the Minister for the Environment and Local Government from exercising any power or control in regard to any particular case with which a planning authority or the board is, or may be, concerned. Similarly, section 79 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992, and section 60 of the Waste Management Act, 1996, preclude the Minister from exercising any power or control in regard to the performance, in particular circumstances, by the Environmental Protection Agency or a local authority of the functions assigned to it by those Acts.

The principle that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government must not intervene in individual cases before An Bord Pleanála was enshrined in the planning code at the time when the board was established and the Minister's functions in determining planning appeals were removed. The Minister was, however, given power to issue general policy directives to the board to which the board must have regard. However, it was specifically provided that he or she could not exercise power or control with regard to individual cases coming before the board. This was intended to underline the independence of the board in dealing with individual appeals while operating within a general policy framework set out by the Minister. This principle regarding An Bord Pleanála was extended to the determination of planning applications by local authorities in 1982 and was restated when the planning code was generally revised and consolidated into the 2000 Act. On the establishment of the Environmental Protection Agency in 1992, and when its functions were extended to include responsibilities with regard to waste management in 1996, the same provision was included in the legislation to ensure the independent operation of the EPA.

This policy of non-intervention and the legislative restriction on involvement by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in indi vidual cases, which all of us would agree has worked well, would not, however, permit the giving by the Department of specialist advice on the natural and built heritage which is such a vital part of the planning and environmental licensing processes. I am advised that in order to permit the continued exercise of the statutory consultative functions with regard to the built and natural heritage in planning and environmental licensing matters which Dúchas has, new legislation is necessary to disapply the above-mentioned sections with regard to the transferred functions only. This is the reason for bringing forward this urgent legislation; otherwise the functions could not have been transferred now or else Dúchas would have to suspend its involvement in planning and environmental licensing until this enabling legislation was passed.

Section 1 of the Bill replaces section 30 of the Planning and Development Act, 2000. It restates the restriction on the Minister for the Environment and Local Government exercising power or control with regard to any matter that is, or may be, before a planning authority or An Bord Pleanála. However, with regard to the functions transferred to the Minister from the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs by way of the Government order under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, and only to those, the section disapplies the restriction. As a result, specialist advice on wildlife, built heritage and national monuments protection functions will continue to be available to An Bord Pleanála and the local authorities when the functions are transferred to the Department of the Environment and Local Government.

Section 2 amends section 79 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992, which contains a power for the Minister to issue general policy directives to the EPA regarding its environmental licensing functions. Subsection (3) sets out that this power cannot be construed as enabling the Minister to exercise power or control with regard to the exercise of the EPA's functions in particular circumstances. The new subsection (3A) will disapply subsection (3) in so far as it relates to the transferred functions. The same amendment is made in section 60(3) of the Waste Management Act, 1996, which contains a power for the Minister to issue general policy directives to the EPA or local authorities regarding their functions on licensing and managing waste.

By referring to those powers specifically transferred under the Government order, it clearly delimits the areas where the Minister is empowered to intervene in the planning and environmental licensing processes, that is, to the newly transferred powers. I look forward to assuming the new functions, integrating them within the Department of the Environment and Local Government and giving effect to the Taoiseach's wish for a renewed focus on environmental sustainability. In accordance with the Public Service Management Act, my Department will be preparing a new statement of strategy. This will give us the opportunity to set out our enhanced goals for this strengthened Department of the Environment and Local Government which we are creating to promote sustainable development and improve the quality of life for all. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister to the House and congratulate him on his appointment as Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

This is a short technical Bill to facilitate the transfer of heritage functions to the Minister's Department. He was kind enough to refer to Dúchas, otherwise matters could get complicated. If this legislation was not brought before the House, Dúchas would not be able to exercise its power with regard to the conservation of our national heritage. I welcome the measure which will allow Dúchas to fulfil its role. I welcome the fact that responsibility with regard to our national heritage, which needs to be strengthened, has been transferred from the former Department to the Minister's Department. Given his role in the Office of Public Works, I believe the Minister will give this matter his full support. Our national heritage will be much improved as a result of the proposals in the legislation. From that point of view I welcome the Bill.

I welcome the Bill and the Minister, Deputy Cullen, to the House. I regret that I am not sitting around the Cabinet table with him. He and I have had a friendship over many years and I have no doubt he will be very successful in the position conferred on him.

This is one of the Government changes which makes good common sense, even though I do not agree with all of them. The changes make plain common sense in that there was always perceived to be friction between Dúchas and the Department of the Environment and Local Government. This was odd given the title of the Department. There always appeared to be conflict as to how far one could go and how far the other would heed the advice of Dúchas.

There is no doubt that in the modern world in which we live sustainability makes sense. We can build, amend and alter as much as we like but the world is a finite place. Therefore, if we are to preserve all that is good and right about the country, not just for ourselves but for future generations, the work of Dúchas must be allied to the work of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. This makes great common sense and many perceived conflicts will disappear following this merger.

I am aware that changes in Departments take time. Civil servants by their nature must move and learn their briefs, likewise the Minister in his new position. However, the speed with which the legislation has been introduced, and the need for Dúchas to begin the integration process within the Department, giving effect to the Taoiseach's wish for a renewed focus on the environment and sustainability, indicates that they are anxious to move things along and bring about the bonding, to use a cliché, which will be necessary for these two entities to get together. It will never be a fully harmonious relationship but it will be a marriage where good ideas from both sides will merge into what, I hope, will be a better future for sustainability in this country.

There is a significant responsibility regarding Kyoto. Given that life is so complex and hurried there is an emphasis on getting things done now and wanting things done immediately, and there is, sometimes, a lack of emphasis on the future and what would be a proper future for all of us. This may seem a small step but it is a large step in ensuring the potential conflicts are teased out. Dúchas has built up huge expertise, of which the Minister will be aware, and I have great admiration for its work having come across it on several occasions with regard to local matters. I have always found it to be very far-sighted and to have a sense of mission about its job. Its very nature is that it looks to the past and seeks to preserve it for the future in a proper way.

I welcome the Bill. We are all being very brief because some of us are new and some reborn. I welcome what the Minister is doing and wish him luck in his Department. I have no doubt that he will give it the attention and commitment it merits. While this is a purely technical Bill, at the same time it gives words to a vision shared by Dúchas and the Department.

This is a technical but very important Bill. As Senator O'Rourke said, it seems very sensible to move Dúchas to the Minister's Department. The Dúchas project is about the sustainability of our habitats, monuments and historic houses, the importance of which we came to recognise very late in the day. Therefore, I wish the Minister the very best of good luck with it.

Section 3 of the Bill amends section 60 of the Waste Management Act, 1996, which contains a power for the Minister to issue general policy directives to the EPA or local authorities in relation to their functions on licensing and waste management. Given that the Minister described how he looks forward to assuming the new functions, it seems that he has not been reading much about waste management which appears to be a nightmare for those who have to deal with it.

It is Tír na nÓg compared to that.

It is one of the hottest issues around and if I were the Minister, I would try to start dealing with it as fast as I could. The former Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, introduced the plastic bag tax which has been an incredible success. There is less litter around and the funniest thing is the general attitude of the public to being seen carrying a plastic bag. Recently I met a male friend coming from the supermarket who said he felt much the same as if he had been found beating women and children in the street or saying he was in favour of killing whales. I saw two young men coming out of the supermarket the other night, who were obviously having a barbecue or something, and they had two huge packets of minced meat clutched to their chests rather than use a plastic bag. Certainly, the message has hit home.

I am a great believer in reuse and recycling. The Minister could push such projects more, even within the Houses. Large brown envelopes are reused to a certain extent, but it could be done far more. If we led by example here, it would be of great help. One of my great achievements within the Houses of the Oireachtas was getting recycled paper used in photocopiers. I want to know the reason all speeches are not printed using both sides of the paper. Doing so would cut our use of paper by half. It would be great if the Minister were to bring it forward. I proposed this once before when I congratulated a Minister on coming before the House with his speech printed on both sides of the page. Senator Dan Kiely who spoke after me said he had just been about to complain about the same thing.

We are not surprised.

While there are differing views, we should try to cut down on the production of waste. Just down the road, Holles Street Hospital made a huge effort in recent months to cut down on hospital waste, which it reduced by 40%. That is unbelievable. When we failed to provide for a toxic waste incinerator some of the pharmaceutical and chemical companies tried doing the same thing and discovered they could reduce the amount of toxic waste they produced dramatically. We have to urge such efforts forward.

I spoke once before in the House about an article I read a few months ago on children born within 3 km and 7 km of a dump. It was found that chromosomal and non-chromosomal abnormalities were higher in children born within 3 km of a dump than in those born within 7 kms. The dumps in question were of the old style. I refuse to call them anything other than that because that is what they are. We have decided that we will have very expensive landfills. We have a lot of land and while no one wants superdumps near them, landfills are very expensive to put in place. We have to come around to the idea that waste reduction is very important.

The glass bottle factory at Ringsend is to close and will not even stay open until 5 July, up to which point it was hoped it would continue to take waste bottles. That is another problem on the Minister's hands. The general public had been influenced to return bottles, 40% of which were being sent for recycling, yet we are now without a facility of our own. I met someone from Quinns, the large bottle factory in Fermanagh, who said their company would be interested in being con tracted to do the job. All these issues are extraordinarily important and it would be good for the Minister to tackle them at the beginning of his five years in office rather than wait for the end.

We talk about incinerators as though they are the only things we should discuss, but they are not the whole story. I was filled with admiration for Kilkenny County Council when it organised a "real nappy" week. Apparently, disposable nappies constitute 4% of household waste, a staggering amount.

They were not around in my time.

Nor in mine.

Nor mine.

With initiatives by corporations, like that in Kilkenny, one can at least investigate effects. I have plenty of other ideas, which I hope I will be here to fill the Minister in on in the future.

Recycled paper has to be used. At the moment, however, there is nowhere to take paper because people are not using it. We should start here with the Minister ensuring all photocopying paper is recycled, as I believe Cahills does in its production of Order Papers and Bills. It is very important that we in the Houses of the Oireachtas show the way with waste minimisation. If the National Maternity Hospital is leading the way, we should go there to get a few hints as to what can be done, though I am sure the Minister's officials will have plenty ideas of their own.

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a gabháil leis an Teachta Cullen agus fáilte a chur roimhe anseo mar Aire Comhshaol agus Rialtas Áitiúil. I welcome the Minister to the House and congratulate him on his appointment. At home, he is my nearest Deputy. In the south east we have not had many Fianna Fáil Ministers. This is a very welcome development for us and I am sure he will maintain a good regional focus.

The Minister also has responsibility for local government and the environment and it is appropriate that he should bring this short but important technical Bill before us to ensure the provisions which previously applied with regard to the consultative role of Dúchas will continue under his aegis. It is also important to continue the preclusion of the Minister with regard to individual cases adjudicated on by the Environmental Protection Agency and An Bord Pleanála which is well maintained in the Bill.

I welcome the legislation and agree fully with Senator Henry's comments in relation to waste management and minimisation. A concerted effort by all could significantly reduce the disposal of waste.

That is for another day.

I accept that.

The Minister has a wide remit and I wish him well. I have no doubt that his ability and commitment to the job will enhance the environment and local government. We look forward to seeing him perform in these areas.

I thank Senators for their good wishes on my appointment. I hope I can live up to their expectations. The Department of the Environment and Local Government is a large Department which deals with a wide range of issues. The addition of the heritage functions and, in particular, Dúchas, will be challenging. I am pleased that the House has universally welcomed the addition of Dúchas and the general heritage policy functions to the remit of the Department and that Senators see it as a good mix. I thank Senator Doyle for his opening remarks and I appreciate his views. He recognises that the Bill is technical in nature but that it is important in the context of future developments. I thank Senator O'Rourke for her nice and warm compliments on my appointment and I wish her well in Seanad Éireann.

Some Senators referred to the fact that we have moved quickly to bring this Bill before the House which is evidence of my desire, and that of the Department, to integrate these matters as speedily as possible. Senator Henry spoke at much length about the requirements for waste management. I accept her point that it is a challenging issue. We have had much discussion and have made progress and the issues have been well aired. I have strong views on these matters and all Senators were correct in identifying the need for a cultural change and a change of mindset in the domestic sphere and in the business sector. Landfill and recycling of waste are valuable but they will not resolve all the issues. I wish to investigate another element and begin to make some decisions about it. I hope that the leadership being shown on all sides of the House will be forthcoming at local level from all our colleagues in all parties. Councillors have an important leadership role to play in the area of waste management. When people play to the gallery and use misinformation, then our ability to deliver on these important issues becomes more complicated when there is a lack of leadership at local level. I thank Senator Walsh for his welcome and his remarks. I commend the Bill to the House.

I wish all the retiring Senators every success. The words spoken about many of them were well merited. They have made a contribution to public life for many years.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Now.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I thank you, Acting Chairman, and Senators for facilitating the passage of this Bill and for their kind words of welcome. I hope all my visits to the Seanad will be as easy regarding the passing of legislation and as welcomed by all sides of the House.

I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill in the House. This process took place during the lifetime of this Seanad and was welcomed by Senators. We hope this will continue and I thank the Minister for initiating the Bill again.

Question put and agreed to.
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