The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on tourism, with 15 minutes for the contributions of spokespersons and ten minutes for those of other Senators, the debate to conclude at 1.30 p.m. and in which Members may share time; and No. 2, motion re the report of the Lindsay tribunal, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators ten minutes and Members may share time. It is hoped to conclude the debate on this matter at 5.30 p.m. However, I am aware of the sensitivity of this issue and we will see how matters advance. The final item is No. 7, motion No.5, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
Will the Leader make time available to debate the schools building programme? This issue is all over the newspapers today and will arise again tomorrow when the Government publishes the Book of Estimates. Last night I attended a meeting of 400 parents and teachers in my parish in Tallaght. The school in question has been on the schools building list for the past 15 years. It was told three weeks before the general election that it had been moved to the architectural stage on the schools building list. There are now 100 schools waiting for the nod from the Department of Education and Science and we learn today that the Government is to introduce savage cuts in the primary schools building programme. This is unacceptable.
I ask the Leader to make time available today or tomorrow for this urgent matter, which will not go away. Government Deputies spent the last general election campaign sending letters to parents and schools making promises which are now nothing more than thin air. Some of these school buildings contain asbestos and we are asking children and teachers to work in an environment which would not be tolerated in other EU countries. I ask for an early debate on this issue.
Will the Leader make Government time available to debate the motion which I have submitted and which is listed No. 15 on the Order Paper? This motion asks that the House consider the report of the task force on the Irish abroad. Excellent work was done in this House ten or 15 years ago on the issue of voting rights for emigrants. A report has been produced by the task force and will be considered presently by the Cabinet. The Dáil does not have the time to debate this issue and it should be debated in Government time in the Seanad. The motion, in my name and those of my Fine Gael colleagues, is not contentious. It simply allows the report to be considered by the House at the earliest possible date. Such a debate would allow us to find out the Government's thinking in relation to this report.
I echo the words of Senator Brian Hayes. When the Estimates are published tomorrow there will be a public outcry. We should meet at 4 p.m. tomorrow to allow Members to express their views on the Estimates, which will have been published by that time.
There is a high level of expectation in areas such as health and education and there is particularly high expectation of the schools building programme. This matter has been debated several times. In the period prior to the general election the question of school buildings was raised several times each week. Children are learning, teachers are teaching and parents are leaving their children in school buildings which breach health and safety standards. If the schools building programme is cut back in the Estimates there will be an outcry. There is already outrage at the delays in the programme. Further delays will not be acceptable.
The Estimates will be published tomorrow evening. It takes no more than 25 seconds to open a page of the Book of Estimates and to calculate the difference between last year's spending and this year's. It does not take four hours to prepare a speech. We should debate this matter immediately after the publication of the Estimates. In recent times we have held debates on the budget in the late afternoon of budget day. Similarly, we should debate the Estimates as soon as they are published tomorrow afternoon so that we can outline our views on any cutbacks in health, education and other areas.
I ask Members on the other side of the House to recognise the fact that infrastructure is not just about roads, bridges and airports. It is also about services and people. If there is a cutback in those areas we will reap the whirlwind in the future. It would be appalling if we allowed that to happen.
I will repeat what I said yesterday: the irony of this country is that we have extraordinarily uneven circumstances in that we have a huge need for school buildings, for instance, but no money will be provided for most of them. On the other hand, we still have a building industry which seems to feel it can rip off its consumers. Judging by the eternal list of anecdotes and stories of extraordinary sharp practice by so much of the building industry, one has to believe the problem is endemic.
Although we have a housing crisis, I want to talk about the clear lack of regulation in the building and related services industries. There is no enforcement of building regulations or of ethical codes in terms of house purchase, etc. Will the Leader arrange a debate on that?
I support Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole in saying that the Department of Finance always classifies education as social expenditure and has resolutely refused to regard it as a productive investment. I have asked the Department of Finance and its officials regularly to tell me what bit of education expenditure one can cut without affecting the country's potential to grow economically but it will not tell me. If one regards education as a productive investment, as I do, which adds an enormous value to our society, then cutting back on education expenditure is a very foolish thing to do.
While I do not believe that we will notice everything that will be done over the next 12 months with the immediate publication of the Estimates, I support Senator O'Toole's suggestion that we should have a debate tomorrow afternoon on the Estimates and what we can read into them, which will probably be far less dramatic than today's headlines are suggesting, because that is the usual way of Government.
I realise that we will be discussing the railways tomorrow, but I sought an Adjournment Debate on this topic because of the dismantling of part of the line at Athenry and the disconnecting of the signal. I am sure the Cathaoirleach is well aware of the problems on the Sligo-Limerick line but it is appalling that an excuse being given to disconnect the signals at Athenry, County Galway, is that they are putting in the mini-CTC system. I ask the Leader if steps could be taken to stop the work of dismantling this line which has been stopped on other parts of the rail network. I hope an opportunity will be given to have this railway brought into place, particularly with regard to a light rail system from Mayo and Sligo down to Galway, Clare and Limerick, the Cathaoirleach's county. I hope I will get an opportunity to raise this matter again.
When we recently discussed the Nice agreement we spoke about the accession of ten countries, one of which was Malta. There is an illicit trade going on with regard to our Irish native songbirds, such as the bullfinches, goldfinches and other songbirds, particularly to Malta. Those birds are being traded at €50 per bird and they are regarded with the same respect as budgerigars in such countries. They are also shot for sport and are regarded as a delicacy. Trappers are trapping these birds even in our own parts. In counties such as Wexford and Waterford, bullfinches and goldfinches are practically extinct. I ask the Leader to take up this matter with the appropriate Minister and the Maltese authorities to stamp out this business or the dawn chorus with which we are all familiar will come to an end in the near future and we will regret the loss of all the species involved.
I would be very sorry to feel that this drastic situation with regard to songbirds was true. It is a very important issue. I am glad to be able to report the dawn chorus is still alive and well, including bullfinches, in North Great George's Street.
There are a few "quare hawks" up there as well.
I support my colleagues with regard to the schools building programme, but cuts will be necessary throughout the Government's programme and I do not envy the Government in its task because any cut it makes will elicit criticism. What this House really needs to do, with the special expertise of people like my colleague Senator O'Toole, is help target those cuts and make sure money is spent in the most productive way. It is ironic to have people on this side of the House calling for more spending and no cuts, and at the same time instructing the Government to get the economy in order. It will be an extremely difficult task to accomplish both simultaneously.
Will the Leader indicate to the House when No. 14 will be taken, which is particularly interesting? I raise this because I know we are dealing with transport tomorrow by way of a focused debate on rail freight. No. 14 is in the name of the junior partners in Government.
Very junior.
That is what gives it its interest and it calls on the Minister for Transport to indicate the reason the level of the roadway at the tunnel is not being lowered to accommodate the super trucks. A debate in this House would be useful to extract hard, solid information with regard to this controversial area. We saw various interested parties and it seems to be very difficult to get at the facts. This House would be playing a very useful role—
You are seeking a debate.
I am glad the birds may still have the trees on O'Connell Street. Recently—
Christy Burke.
—and a former member of this House, the late Senator Costello—
Not "late".
Wishful thinking again.
No, the man we transferred to the other House.
Senator Coghlan, on the Order of Business.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for saving me from the opposite benches. There is some concern that the Government might be about to sell off the family silver, so to speak. Recently, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance announced a State audit of property, which is timely and overdue, and I do not disagree with that at all. However, I have a question for the Leader arising from this. Will the audit definitely include the semi-State organisations and how will it be conducted? There are fears of sweetheart deals, cosy cartels—
Not in Killarney.
—handshakes and that kind of thing.
Is the Senator looking for a debate or asking a question?
I leave that to the discretion of the Leader. If she thinks fit it would be good. I thank the Cathaoirleach for his guidance on the matter. We should have the Minister of State in the House to enlighten us further.
Will the Leader call on the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to intervene in the dispute between An Post and the Postmasters' Union, which has led to private mail going everywhere except to where it should be going? People in rural Ireland are really suffering because of this. Will the Leader ask the Minister to explain why the postmen and postwomen are being forced to carry out actions they would have been dismissed for doing a week ago, namely, sorting mail in their own homes. Private mail is now going anywhere and everywhere expect where it should be going. This is a serious matter, particularly in the lead-up to Christmas.
Will the Leader call on the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mary O'Rourke – sorry, Deputy Mary Harney—
Maybe the Senator is right.
If it was Senator O'Rourke this matter would not arise.
On the Order of Business.
If it was the Leader, what I am about to refer to would not have happened so there would be no need for the Minister to come into the House to—
What is the matter?
—outline her plans and the policy that will prevent the hammering being experienced by workers in north Tipperary with the loss of jobs in all the main towns, including Roscrea, Nenagh and Thurles, which have not been replaced. The Minister should also outline what action, if any, she is taking to secure the remaining jobs in the Miza Ireland group plant, over 100 of which disappeared yesterday despite the promises made a month ago to invest heavily in the plant and create 100 extra jobs.
I do not often agree with Senator Ryan but I support his call for a debate on the building industry. The Leader should also ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to attend the House to debate the issue of planning, including the strategy adopted by local authorities in granting planning permission, the seeming breakdown in the production of inspectors' reports at An Bord Pleanála and the final decisions made by the board. I have written to the chairman of the board seeking information on this aspect. In many cases decisions by local authorities on granting or refusing planning applications and which are upheld by inspectors are overturned by the board. If there is to be a proper planning strategy in the country we need to know the criteria used by the agencies involved because at present they appear to be working in three different directions. There is also a need to debate the abuse of the use of retention orders by developers in an attempt to secure a second hand planning application they know they will not get in the first instance.
The Senator can elaborate on these points in any impending debate.
I would not be prepared to support Senator Coghlan's request to the Leader until he produces a full report from Deputy Lowry, a former member of his party, who may have more information than is available to this House.
That is not relevant on the Order of Business.
Perhaps the junior Opposition party might be in a position to assist in that regard.
Senator Minihan does not believe in the Seanad, yet he sits in the House.
Will you, Sir, clarify what matters are appropriate to the Order of Business and the Adjournment? With your permission I raised a matter on the Adjournment yesterday and I submitted one for the Adjournment today which you did not allow, as is your privilege. However, it has been raised on the Order of Business.
No clarification is required. I can only select three items for the Adjournment and I do so in as fair a manner as possible.
Will you clarify what matters are appropriate to the Adjournment and to the Order of Business?
That is a matter for the Chair. Your request is not relevant to the Order of Business. I will speak to the Senator privately.
I look forward to that.
The Senator is very privileged.
I agree. On the Order of Business, I support the call by Senators for an immediate debate on the cuts in education, which are the unkindest cuts of all. The debate should also focus on the schools which, in the days before the general election, were promised repairs and investment when it is now clear that those promises meant nothing.
I also ask the Leader to ensure that in the context of the proposed debate on the Book of Estimates, there is clarification on the national roads programme, especially the motorway projects. Many people are left in limbo on the future of their homes, farms and livelihoods. It is not clear if these road projects will proceed and, if so, when.
I would welcome a debate on the progress made in education over the past five years. It will highlight what has been achieved and what will be done. I will have no difficulty in defending the programme for education.
I also support the calls for a debate on planning and the role of An Bord Pleanála. I can cite many examples of the transparency of the board and the role of inspectors.
I also support the calls for a debate on planning. The first consultation document on the national spatial strategy was published in February 2000, yet very little has happened since. Consultations and submissions were welcomed. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the strategy when it is published and to request the attendance of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government who has been mandated with the responsibility for preparing and publishing the strategy.
I also support the calls for a debate on planning. Some of the actions by An Bord Pleanála are unacceptable, especially the delays in dealing with complaints. A business in my area is unable to expand because of the delays by the board in making a decision.
I assure the Opposition that Senators on this side of the House will warmly welcome the opportunity to debate the Book of Estimates and their impact on education. A scrutiny of the last five years in education will show a proud record of achievement across all sectors, including the building programme. Members of the Opposition will be familiar with the intensive building and refurbishment programme and the generous and justifiable enhancement of the capitation programme over that period.
It is appropriate to ask the House to join with me in paying a glowing tribute to the religious orders who have reached a milestone in their involvement in education. It was revealed yesterday that three orders – the Mercy and Presentation Sisters and the Christian Brothers – along with others in the recent past have decided to become involved in trusteeships as a way of ensuring their continuing involvement. Notwithstanding recent controversies, the religious orders have a proud record of achievement.
Senator, I have given you a fair degree of latitude.
Is the Senator engaging in debate or propaganda?
The religious orders have a proud record of achievement in education over successive generations and centuries. The House should pay a glowing tribute to that.
I also call for a debate on planning, including the role of An Bord Pleanála. There is also a need to debate the role of An Taisce in this area. It creates huge difficulties for people in rural areas, especially the young who need to build one-off houses.
Senator Brian Hayes referred to the likely impact of the Book of Estimates on the schools building programme. Everyone in the House seeks an early debate on the Estimates. If they are not published until late tomorrow afternoon it would be difficult to secure the attendance of the appropriate Minister. It would be better to postpone a debate until next week in order to absorb them. Senators on both sides of the House have sought such a debate, but come 5 p.m. tomorrow evening many Members may have had to leave for various reasons and we would not have had sufficient time to fully read the details of the Book of Estimates. It is a huge and complex document on which I support an early debate.
I support the call for a debate in regard to the task force on emigration and will endeavour to arrange it as soon as possible. Yesterday, Senator Ryan clearly created a groundswell for a debate on the construction industry, planning, An Bord Pleanála and various other matters. It is appropriate that we have the relevant Minister in the House for such a debate as it is the stuff of everyday life and affects so many people.
The Senator also referred to education as being a productive matter rather than just a social one. I agree and recall from my own days as Minister for Education and Science that the Department of Finance was totally obdurate in its belief that education was a social issue rather than a productive one.
Senator Kitt referred to the dismantling of the rail line and the signalling system at Athenry. I am aware of this issue in regard to which I have received numerous e-mails and telephone calls. The Minister for Transport will be in the House tomorrow and I urge the Senator to explain the issue to him. I am sure he will get a sympathetic hearing.
Senator Finucane is worried about all the songbirds going to Malta, perhaps for the weather.
The Senator is all for the birds.
I did not know about this and do not wish to be facetious, but if the Senator says it, then it must be so.
(Interruptions.)
It must be.
Senator Finucane is an authority on the area.
I am very interested in all the Members in this House alone who are awakened by the dawn chorus.
If anybody wants to read it, there was an interesting article on the subject in Ireland on Sunday recently.
I thank the Senator. I do not doubt what he is saying, but I am surprised at the number of Senators who are awake every day for the dawn chorus, of which Senator Norris is one.
There is no dawn chorus at this time of year, just in case anybody was thinking of getting up tomorrow morning.
Senator Norris wishes for us to discuss motion No. 14 which deals with the height of the port tunnel. This matter has been raised in the name of the Progressive Democrats and I am sure it can be taken when the time comes, and tomorrow also.
Senator Coghlan requested that the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, come into the House to discuss his plans in regard to a use for idle land. The Minister of State's idea seems very sensible and I will request that he come here to discuss it.
Senator Coonan raised the issue of the An Post dispute. The point was made that in other times this would have been the wrong thing to do, but it has the seal of authority now because it has been allowed. The Senator also referred to job losses in his area. We will ask if the Tánaiste will come into the House to talk about her overall economic plans.
Senator Minihan called for a debate in regard to planning issues. He made a valid point in regard to retention, in that it is a way for people to get what they were not allowed to do in the first place by default, as the attitude is that there is no point in tearing a structure down. There is a clear need for a debate on the issue.
Dare I say Senator O'Meara has a difficulty with the Cathaoirleach?
No.
The Senator does not have a difficulty with the Cathaoirleach, but with the decisions taken in regard to what is chosen as a matter for discussion on the Adjournment.
I just want to know.
There is no clarification. Senators have the right to bring up matters for the Adjournment debate. There are no clear cut lines. I am sorry for being so definite about it. Members will always want to stand up and be heard, which I fully appreciate. They want to tell their constituents, or whoever is the interested party, that they have raised a matter. No law of the land or clarification could clear up that matter.
I thank the Leader for her clarification.
I thank the Senator. This could go on forever. Senator O'Meara also said education cuts are the unkindest cuts of all. I regard what was reported in today's newspapers as the blowing of trumpets to tell us that it is all going to be horrible, but when the times comes it will not be like that.
It is the Government's spin doctors.
It has put Fine Gael in a spin.
I do not know who the trumpeter is, but I do not expect tomorrow to be as calamitous as we would anticipate from the front page of The Irish Times today. Senators Ormonde and Fitzgerald robustly defended the very fine education record of the past five years and the huge improvements that have been made. Senator Ormonde also called for a debate on planning.
Senator Bannon raised the national spatial strategy which I understand is due quite soon. If we could tie it in with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, we could have a debate on all these related issues. Senator Dooley raised the matter of planning, which appears to be a much sought after debate. Senator McCarthy from Cork referred to one-off housing on which he is at one with the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. Interestingly, he also asked for An Taisce to be discussed in the overall debate. I agree with him. Why should any one organisation be a sacred cow that cannot be discussed, as if it was a vestal virgin who could never be approached. We would do well to include it in an overall debate on planning.
Order of Business agreed to.