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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Nov 2002

Vol. 170 No. 13

Adjournment Matters. - Special Savings Investment Scheme.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to the House. It is my first opportunity to do so and to formally congratulate him on his recent appointment as Minister of State. I have worked with Deputy Ahern in the past and I wish him well in his difficult job as Minister of State with responsibility for housing over the next four to five years.

Last week and this week we heard the latest round of bad news concerning the economy. At 3 o'clock today when the Estimates are published I suppose we will hear even more bad news. Yet another month has gone by when Government predictions on tax receipts have gone spectacularly wrong. While this situation has to be addressed in the upcoming budget, the problems that exist in the Irish economy are more long term. Corrective action has to be taken by the Minister for Finance to get spending under control and to boost tax yields from various sources.

I would like to give some advice to the Minister this afternoon as to how he can defuse the financial time bomb that is expected in five years when the Government must meet in full the financial liability that is the special savings scheme.

The scheme was first thought up in 2001 when particular inflationary difficulties took hold within the economy. In effect, too much cash was chasing too few goods and services. Clearly people were not saving additional disposable income that was available to them and the Government rightly deduced that by taking money out of the economy through savings, a number of issues could be addressed. The idea behind this scheme was a clever one. However, the over-generous nature of the scheme, devised at a time when the economy was in overdrive, could potentially provide the conditions of near bankruptcy for our economy in 2007.

To say that the Minister for Finance grossly underestimated the uptake and cost of the scheme is not an exaggeration. The Government is now legally obliged to give €1 per €4 saved, up to a maximum personal contribution of €254 per month. For every person maximising his or her contribution, it is a cost to the Exchequer of €64 per month or €762 in a full year. The more you save, the more you gain. For hundreds of thousands of account holders this scheme is literally a licence to print money.

The Minister should consider the following proposal. He should permit savings account holders to leave the scheme without the imposition of a 23% tax penalty. This penalty was established at the start of the scheme to ensure that account holders would not break their monthly savings over the five year period. If the Minister changes the rules as I propose, it will save the Government millions of euro in the long term while also giving some people a way out when the economy has changed and their personal circumstances may also have changed.

By allowing savers to get out of the scheme for a six month period, say, from January to June 2003, account holders would have access to the funds that have accumulated to date. It would equally have the effect of freeing up the cost of savings to the State that could then be ring-fenced for important infrastructural needs or national priorities such as the health service or education.

One of the dangers of the scheme has been to defer inflationary pressures for five years, as the scheme will only mature in 2007. This opt-out provision may release these pressures incrementally before that time as against the big bang effect that may occur in 2007 when literally billions of euro available for expenditure will come into the economy.

I am not suggesting for a moment there would be a mass exodus from the scheme if an opt-out clause was provided at his stage, but it must surely make economic sense to do everything in our power to reduce the total liability to which the State will be exposed in 2007. I am suggesting that some people may decide to take their money and run and that this would be in the interests of all concerned. Even a 10% reduction in the overall cost of the scheme, by implementing this proposal, would free up tens of millions for more worthwhile projects between now and 2007.

It is not too late to change the rules of the scheme. Giving people a chance to get out of the scheme provides the State and the individual account holder with a policy option that is to everyone's advantage. The longer the scheme continues in its present form the more expensive the final bill will be. Now is the time to consider a change of direction.

I thank Senator Brian Hayes for his kind comments and I apologise for the absence of the Minister for Finance who is otherwise engaged. He has a busy afternoon ahead of him

I understand Senator Hayes's comments but I cannot accept them fully. The Government recognizes the crucial importance of providing not just for the short term but for a sustainable future in the longer term. We have taken a range of measures to develop and encourage this, such as the national pensions reserve fund and major developments in encouraging pensions provision. We recognise the importance of facilitating individuals to provide for the medium and long term by regular saving.

Accordingly the Government introduced an innovative scheme, the special savings incentive account (SSIA) scheme to encuorage people to save on a regular basis. Some 1.17 million people have chosen to avail of the scheme. The widespread and popular participation in this scheme is a vindication of the principle behind it. When the scheme was introduced the Minister for Finance made it clear that the cost would depend on its success and that he was hoping it would be very successful. The number of people who applied was high.

The goal of the scheme is to encourage people to save over a period of at least five years. Recognising that it would be necessary to provide an incentive to people to put away their money for a longer period, the scheme provides for a tax incentive by way of a 25% top-up on savings by the Government. It would run counter to the intention of the scheme, which is to encourage a pattern of regular savings over the medium term, if someone could withdraw the money, including top-up, after a very short period. The effect of the proposal from Senator Hayes would be to allow just that.

I do not speak for the scheme. That is the task of the Minister for Finance. I have some sympathy with Senator Hayes's proposal. Perhaps the solution lies somewhere between his view and that of the Minister.

The 23% tax penalty referred to by Senator Hayes is an exit tax on funds withdrawn by savers from special savings incentive accounts before they mature. The effect of this tax is to claw back the Exchequer top-up of 25% and impose a small penalty for breach of the conditions of the SSIA agreement. For example, say a person had deposited €100 in each of the first ten months of his or her account and then decided to close the account. That person would have deposited a total of €1,000, the Government would have added a further €250 and there might be deposit interest of, say, €25, making the total balance of €1,275. If such an amount were withdrawn from the account, the exit tax of 23% would amount to €293.25, leaving a balance of €981.75. This amounts to just over 98% of the funds deposited by the saver over the course of the product – a modest loss on investment due to breach of the conditions, particularly when compared to the gain to be made by abiding by the terms agreed. The Senator says he does not envisage a mass exodus from the scheme. However, if his proposal were accepted savers who withdrew from the scheme would do extraordinarily well.

If funds are withdrawn by an SSIA holder before the account matures he has broken the fundamental condition of the scheme. If he could do so without having the 25% top-up clawed back he would have received as large a bonus as someone who left the same amount on deposit for five years, despite having done so himself for only a relatively short time. People who had already withdrawn money from the scheme and paid 23% on the withdrawal might feel aggrieved that others who failed to meet the same condition were treated preferentially.

The Senator should think again about his proposal and the effect it would have on the incentive to save and on those who have already paid the 23% on withdrawal. His proposal would be a further concession to the saver. The Minister is being bombarded with views from all sides of the political spectrum.

My proposal would save the State money in the long term.

Would it? There is not clear evidence. Numerous suggestions have been put to the Minister, many saying the State has been too generous and that the Minister should claw back bonuses or abolish the scheme altogether.

Senator Hayes is providing an extra favour for the saver and there is an element of making an each way bet in his proposal. His proposal might benefit the State in the longer term. A more moderate proposal might be—

In the budget?

I cannot say that, but if there was a consensus among people on the Opposition and other people in political life as to how the scheme could be amended the Minister might consider those views.

I understand the principle of Senator Brian Hayes's proposal. However, if it were accepted now there might well be a mass exodus, which is not what the Government would want.

It would be good in the long term.

The Minister for Finance does not want a run on his savings either. I have some sympathy with the Senator's proposal but such an action is not in the Minister's thinking at the moment. If there were consensus on how he might amend the scheme I am sure he would consider all good ideas.

I am sure he would consider anything to save him money at the moment.

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