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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Nov 2002

Vol. 170 No. 14

European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 2002: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to be able to introduce this short Bill in the Seanad and to commend it to the House. It is not complicated legislation but it is important because it is a further step towards enabling Ireland to ratify the Treaty of Nice and allowing the historic process of enlargement of the European Union to proceed as planned. I will explain the contents of the Bill and why they are necessary, and then say a few words about the wider background to the legislation.

The decision to ratify the Treaty of Nice was taken by the people in an historic referendum on 19 October last. However, a few technical measures must legally be taken before the State can ratify the treaty. Passage of this legislation is one of those measures. A fundamental aspect of European Union law is that Community legislation has direct legal effect in each member state. This was recognised and allowed for in the original constitutional amendment enabling Ireland to join the European Economic Community, as it then was, in 1973. The European Communities Act, 1972, listed the treaties and other Acts which would have direct legal effect in the State, and allowed for further implementing regulations to be made by Ministers.

As the original communities have grown and developed through successive treaties, it has been necessary in each case to amend the European Communities Act accordingly to take account of each of these new treaties. On each previous occasion, before Ireland has ratified an EU treaty, it has through legislation made relevant provisions of the treaty part of the domestic law of the State so that at the time of ratification, it is fully able to discharge its obligations. That is the purpose of the legislation.

The Bill contains two sections and amends the 1972 Act. Section 1 is the principal operative part of the Bill. It adds the relevant provisions of the Treaty of Nice to the list of treaties and other instruments contained in the definition of the "treaties governing the European Communities" in Section 1(1) of the 1972 Act, as amended. These are Articles 1.15 and 2 to 10, together with annexed protocols. For ease of use, the 1972 Act, as amended, contains a table with a complete list of "treaties governing the European Communities". Section 1(2) of the Bill adds a reference to the Treaty of Nice to that table.

Section 2 contains normal provisions concerning the Short Title, collective citation, construction and commencement. It provides that the Act will come into operation on such day as may be appointed by order made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. That day will coincide with the entry into force of the Treaty of Nice.

It is worth outlining briefly the logic behind the selection of the Articles of the Treaty of Nice which, through the Bill, are to be made part of domestic law and to explain the basis on which the decisions were made. Article 1 of the Treaty of Nice amends aspects of the Treaty on European Union. Measures adopted under that treaty in the foreign policy and justice and home affairs areas differ from directives, regulations and decisions adopted under the Community treaties in the mainstream social and economic sectors. The major difference is that they do not have direct legal effect. The obligations created are essentially intergovernmental.

For the most part the European Court of Justice does not have jurisdiction in these areas. Because of this the Bill does not include reference to Articles 1.1 to 1.14. Article 1.15, however, amends provisions relating to those limited areas under the Treaty on European Union in which the European Court of Justice does have a role. It is, therefore, necessary to include it in the list of provisions of the Treaty of Nice II which, through this Bill, are being made part of the domestic law of the State.

In the area of justice and home affairs, some instruments, once adopted by the Council, require subsequent legislative implementation by member states. In preparing this legislation consideration was again given to whether provisions relating to JHA matters should be brought within the terms of the European Communities Act. Such an arrangement would allow for JHA legislation to be given domestic effect by regulation rather than by primary legislation. However, as was the case when the matter was last considered as part of the Treaty of Amsterdam, it was felt that these matters were of sufficient weight and sensitivity to merit implementation through primary, rather than secondary, legislation. Therefore, they are not included in this Bill and remain outside the scope of the European Communities Act. As Members will recall that this specific process of using 1973 legislation, to bring into effect by secondary legislation Acts of the European communities, was debated and criticised, what we have done here is a positive move which should be welcomed.

Articles 2 to 10 of the treaty, together with annexed protocols, represent the main body of the substantive amendments to the European Communities Treaties provided for in the Act. Article 2 amends various aspects of the treaty establishing the European Community. It is the most substantial of the Articles. Article 3 amends provisions of the treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community. Article 4 amends aspects of the treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community. Article 5 amends the protocol on the statute of the European system of Central Banks and the European Central Bank. Article 6 amends the protocol on the privileges and immunities of the European Communities. Articles 7 to 10 are part of the treaty's transitional and final provisions and provide, inter alia, for certain repeals consequent to the new provisions of the Treaty of Nice. All of these Articles are, therefore, included in the Bill.

Articles 11, 12 and 13, also part of the treaty's transitional and final provisions, concern matters of international treaty law. They provide that the treaty is concluded for an unlimited period, set out how it is to be ratified and when it is to enter into force, and list those languages in which it is to be equally authentic. It is not, therefore, deemed necessary that these aspects of the Treaty of Nice become part of domestic law.

There are four protocols to the treaty, which form part of the Bill. Two are particularly important. The protocol on enlargement sets out the new arrangements governing the European Parliament, the weighting of votes in the Council and the composition of the Commission. The protocol on the statute of the Court of Justice makes significant changes to the functioning of the court, intended to allow it cope with enlargement and its greater caseload.

In keeping with past practice, the terms of the Bill have been carefully drafted to ensure that only those provisions of the Treaty of Nice which it is necessary to make part of domestic law prior to ratification are made part of Irish law. The Government has not sought to go any further than is necessary in order to achieve that aim. This is the prudent and proper approach. Once the Bill has been enacted it will be possible for Ireland to draw up and deposit its instrument of ratification with the Italian Foreign Ministry in Rome, the depository of all the treaties.

The terms of the Treaty of Nice state it will enter into force "on the first day of the second month following that in which the instrument of ratification is deposited by the last signatory state to fulfil that formality." As Ireland will be the last signatory state to take that important step, if we deposit our instrument of ratification before the end of this year, as the Government expects, the treaty will enter into force at the start of February. The timing of this could not be more significant. As Senators are aware, there are 12 countries currently negotiating to join the European Union, ten of which are expected to be ready to sign an accession treaty later in the spring. In a real way Ireland will be opening the door to allow them in.

The enlargement negotiations for the ten countries concerned are drawing to a close. The meeting of the European Council in Brussels at the end of October – in welcoming the outcome of the Irish referendum on the Nice treaty – endorsed a Commission paper which stated the ten countries in question – Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, the Slovak Republic and Slovenia – fulfilled the political criteria and would be able to fulfil the economic criteria to assume the obligations of membership from the beginning of 2004.

The Council decided to allow the Union to present negotiating positions to the candidate states on all outstanding issues by early November, with a view to concluding enlargement negotiations at the European Council in Copenhagen on 12 and 13 December and signing the accession treaty in Athens in April 2003. This process remains on track, as was confirmed at the General Affairs and External Relations Council earlier this week.

We should not lose sight of the fact that all of the candidate countries have made enormous sacrifices to come this far. Achieving the standards necessary to join the European Union has forced all of them to make difficult choices and take tough decisions. Despite the attempts of a great many people to offer reassurance, there is absolutely no doubt that the result of the first referendum on the Nice treaty was a serious blow to the aspirations and hopes of these states. It threw into doubt the European Union's ability to achieve the timetable to which we had all been working. The result of the second referendum was, therefore, particularly welcome in the ten countries concerned. The decision taken last month is widely appreciated within these states as being of major significance to them. There is a sense of deep gratitude to the Irish people. I come across this gratitude on every occasion I visit a Council or convention meeting and the degree to which the Irish are held in high regard is astonishing. The vote by the people is seen as a generous act of solidarity of a small nation with which they have much in common.

In all the discussions we have had on the future direction of the European Union – whether in the debate that preceded the referendum, in the National Forum on Europe or elsewhere – there has been an overwhelming national consensus in favour of enlargement. Irish people, who have themselves felt the pain of conflict and division, see the expansion of the Union and the ending of the unnatural division of the European continent as a project of historic importance. When Ireland deposits its instrument of ratification, one of the final few pieces of the jigsaw will fall into place.

The Government is conscious of the reason Ireland will be the last country to ratify the treaty. Had the people not voted "No" in the first referendum, we would have expected to have completed the necessary procedures more than a year ago. However, while this would clearly have made our lives considerably simpler, we would not have had the thorough and detailed debate on the future of the European Union and Ireland's role in it that led up to the second referendum. We have all gained from the experience, difficult as it was.

Successive Governments had, perhaps, tended to take it for granted that the generally strong support which most Irish people continue to feel towards the European Union would automatically translate into a favourable outcome in any related referendum. As a result of the outcome of the first referendum, we have all had to reassess that position and learn that there was no room for complacency. That we did so and responded in a positive and active way to concerns raised was reflected in the outcome of the second vote.

Without rerunning the referendum campaign, there are a few points worth making. Last year's result made it very clear that we were not engaging the people sufficiently well in wider debates about the future of Europe. That was a fundamental mistake. Many were of the view matters were changing in a way that gave them little opportunity to discuss what was happening and make their views and opinions heard in a meaningful way. In response to this concern, the Government established the National Forum on Europe which, under the excellent chairmanship of Senator Maurice Hayes, has already made an enormously valuable contribution to furthering national debate on European issues. When I discuss this aspect of our referendum in either Council meetings or at the convention, there is considerable interest in the workings of our national forum, in particular in the manner in which it handled the broad process of education and debate on Europe. It will be a model for similar fora in other jurisdictions.

I particularly commend the efforts of the forum to take the debate out to the people. All too often discussion of Europe is perceived to be a matter for elites – whether political, academic or bureaucratic. It has not generally been seen as something that shapes and touches peoples' lives and the places where they live. The forum road show has brought debate to more or less every corner of the country. It has taken it out of the rarefied halls of Dublin Castle and into the suburbs, the countryside and the provincial cities and towns in which the people live their lives. As a result, the debate has acquired a much more localised and genuine flavour.

Discussion of the future shape of the European Union is continuing, with the involvement of the European convention, a subject to which I will return. The Government is very pleased that, having played such an important part in facilitating discussion on enlargement and different aspects of the Treaty of Nice, the forum will again be playing a central role in ensuring the Irish people continue to have a full say.

The first referendum outcome also reflected a feeling held by some that EU legislation was somehow being imposed without their representatives in the Dáil and Seanad having the opportunity to examine it properly. As the House will be aware, the Joint Committee on European Affairs is now at the centre of new scrutiny measures which ensure every legislative or policy proposal coming from the European Union can be given appropriate consideration in the Oireachtas. Work began in July and, through the European Union (Scrutiny) Act, 2002, the arrangements have now been put on a statutory footing. Our arrangements are now on a par with those operating in any member state and infinitely superior to those in most.

The committee's work is a significant step towards addressing the democratic deficit sometimes associated with Europe. I pay particular tribute to its members who are doing such an excellent job in a new and challenging area. People's doubts about Europe have also sometimes included a sense that it will be difficult to preserve what makes Ireland distinct and different, particularly in an enlarged and much more populous Union.

Although I have always believed that our individuality has been enhanced and enriched through our membership of the European Union, I know that for many there was a fear that, in particular, our distinctive national policy of military neutrality could be encroached upon without the people being given the chance to decide the matter for themselves. In the declarations at Seville earlier this summer the Government and our partners in Europe made it very clear this was not the case. The necessary assurances were certainly contained in the declarations. Nothing in the treaties in any way impinges upon Ireland's neutral status. However, to offer further assurance that no change would be made without the people's say-so, the wording of the second referendum proposed a constitutional prohibition on Ireland joining any EU common defence without first having the ratification of the people. I am pleased that, as a result of last month's vote, this position is now enshrined in the Constitution, the appropriate place for it and the best guarantee the people can have on the issue.

Looking back at the journey we have made, the single most important lesson learned is that the Government and elected representatives generally need to listen more carefully and respond more actively. The message on Europe must be communicated in respect of which the media as well as political leaders have a role to play. As we saw in the recent referendum, civil society must more actively engage with developments in Europe. As a nation, we must learn to become far more confident about our place in Europe, our capacity to mould the community and the significance of our involvement and contribution. We sometimes sell ourselves short. When I speak to people from other European states, I recognise the high regard in which we are held. People, who have been involved in European affairs for a long time, have considerable regard for the ability of the Irish people to deal with complex issues relating to Europe. We have always punched above our weight as a nation, but the degree of understanding Irish people have of European affairs is probably greater than we sometimes give ourselves credit for.

This is an enduring lesson that we will all do well to remember, particularly as the debate on Europe's future begins to take shape at the European convention. The people must be informed and involved. The convention has undertaken an ambitious task. Under the declaration at Laeken it is to look at the key questions facing the Union at a time of great challenge and change in its development. It is to examine how Europe can be brought closer to its citizens, something with which we can all identify. It will examine how Europe can play a full and active part in a rapidly changing, global environment and how it can be better organised to meet these challenges.

The convention, which brings together representatives of Governments and Parliaments from the member and applicant states together with MEPs and representatives of the Commission, has been meeting since February, but its work has recently begun to gather pace. In last week's meeting of the forum, Senator Maurice Hayes made a very appropriate comparison. He suggested that something that started out like the west Clare railway line was now coming down the tracks like a TGV. The convention's process is unique. It involves, not only representatives of the member state Governments, but also representatives of the member state Parliaments and the European Parliament. It also involves representatives of the Parliaments and Governments of the applicant states. It is a uniquely open body in that all of its papers are available on the Internet. The criticism made about the process of producing previous treaties will no longer be valid in this case. What is taking place is happening in the open and those who wish to be engaged can have access.

Six of the ten working groups operating within the convention have produced reports. The four remaining groups will complete their reports before Christmas. At the end of October the convention president, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, brought forward what he called a "preliminary draft constitutional treaty." It sets out, in very outline form, the areas he sees being included in a future treaty. The convention is working towards completing its task and bringing forward a set of recommendations by consensus early in the summer of 2003. These recommendations will be a key input to the Intergovernmental Conference that will follow.

It will be for Governments in the Intergovernmental Conference to make decisions and reach final conclusions. However, the outcome of the convention will be highly significant. I am pleased to be representing Ireland as the Government representative. I also pay tribute to the Oireachtas representatives, Deputies Pat Carey, John Bruton and John Gormley, and Proinsias De Rossa MEP, who are playing an extraordinary role and have given a huge amount of time and energy. Sadly, their active role has not always been appropriately recognised.

Guided in no small measure by our recent experience, we are stressing within the convention the need for an approach which takes full account of what people feel about and expect from the Union. Our approach is informed by a sense that Irish people are broadly comfortable with the current distribution of competence between member states and the Union. They do not want to see massive steps forward towards increasing integration, nor do they wish to retreat to simple inter-governmentalism. We believe that the Irish people are also broadly happy with the way in which the institutions work and do not want to see the current careful balances between them upset or set aside.

We believe that genuine and meaningful steps can and should be taken towards giving people greater ownership of the European project through, for example, making the treaties simpler and more accessible or through making the principle of subsidiarity more effective in its application – without resort to gimmicks such as changing the name of the Union. On this latter point, while Giscard d'Estaing's draft makes four suggestions, I firmly believe that people are comfortable with the title European Union and that there is little support for change. There is certainly no support for it to be called the United States of Europe, with all that title conjures up.

Overall, it is a question of striking the right balance – protecting what is good about the Union while preparing for the challenges ahead. I hope that, if the right approach is taken, it should prove possible to reach an outcome that will endure and stand the test of time and that the sense that the Union is constantly being modified and reconstructed will be at an end. The Union has been like a building site for 50 years and it is time that process was bedded down. The convention and the treaty that follows should do that.

That is all for the future. I know the Seanad will continue to follow matters with great interest and to make an intelligent and meaningful contribution – as it always does – through its debates. Today the task before us is to take a further step towards ratification of the Treaty of Nice. As I hope I have explained, the Bill is a simple one, but it is significant and I warmly commend it to the House.

I apologise for the unavoidable absence of our spokesperson on European and foreign affairs, Senator Bradford, owing to a family bereavement.

I warmly welcome the Minister of State to the House. Despite the fact that this is a short Bill, his final sentence summed up its significance. If the electorate had not given a strong "Yes" vote, we would not be debating this Bill today and would probably have to adopt a different stance.

I endorse the Minister of State's sentiments in complimenting the role played by the forum for Europe in explaining the shortfalls apparent in the first referendum. Were it not for some of the individuals on the forum travelling around the country, encouraging the electorate with a convincing message, a sizeable proportion of the electorate might have abstained or voted "No". The Minister of State said that in the many places he has been since the referendum he has received warm praise and acknowledgement that Ireland had been generous in support of the treaty. That is welcome.

The analysis of our role in Europe since 1973 has always classified us as strong pro-Europeans. For a number of reasons, support for our pro-European stance has recently declined substantially. Where once it had 70% approval, that figure has now declined. I agree with the Minister of State's analysis that this is probably our own fault for not explaining the European message adequately over the years. We became complacent, as evidenced by the result of the first referendum on the Treaty of Nice. It is good that we have re-established ourselves in a positive light in Europe. One wonders what the headlines would have been in Europe and at home if we had taken the wrong decision last month.

We must accept that the core "No" vote did not change from the first occasion and further effort must be made to explain if there is a deficit in information or whether these people should be brought on board, their talents used and their grievances recognised. Many people who voted "No" had legitimate concerns and I am not sure they have been addressed. I hope this House could go some way to addressing the difficulties and fears that a sizeable proportion of the population still have in relation to many of the issues raised, for example, enlargement, neutrality and the common defence force. Some people are suspicious that we will be dragged into war, despite the fact that we have included in our Constitution a paragraph which defines our involvement.

There is still a need to address the democratic deficit and to continue the forum on Europe. I hope the personnel involved could be persuaded, with others, to continue in a formal manner – perhaps not as intensively as in the run up to the referendum but at least it could be seen to be active several times a year. As a former member of the European affairs committee, I hope this House will have an identifiable and increasing role in our contact with Europe and that the democratic deficit the Minister of State has identified can be reduced, if not eliminated, through our efforts.

There must be a mechanism whereby we can bring EU Commissioners to our Chamber. The Agriculture Commissioner attended the European Affairs Committee recently to explain CAP reform and other changes in agriculture policy.

As the Minister of State will be aware, I have previously drawn attention to certain changes which are necessary in national legislation and in the administration of various schemes in a manner which currently penalises people, as was never intended under European directives and regulations. In the context of penalties and fines in relation to schemes of grants, premia and agricultural support mechanisms, Agriculture House has put in place a regime which is cruel and objectionable. Farmers who make a small human error are disproportionately penalised and, in effect, condemned as fraudulently seeking benefits under the schemes. Evidently, officials in Agriculture House cannot see the reality that to err is human and that it is their job to rectify matters. The Minister of State had a substantial input in dealing with particular cases in that regard over several years.

The severe penalties being imposed by the Department of Agriculture and Food for minor technical infringements are quite disproportionate and do not take account of the fact that the farmers affected never had any fraudulent intention. No doubt, there are those in every EU country who set out to make fraudulent gain and, as it were, beat the system. However, in the vast majority of cases, the benefit withdrawn and penalties imposed on farmers are totally disproportionate to the relatively minor transgressions involved. The Minister for Agriculture and Food has put in place a supposedly independent appeals mechanism which, in reality, is anything but independent. In 90% of cases the appeals board is made up of former Department employees who are quite familiar with many of the cases under appeal, having been involved in processing them in their previous capacity.

I urge the Minister of State to take steps to establish a mechanism whereby EU directives and national legislation which have caused consternation and pain to many can be amended to remove the penal elements to which I have referred. The habitats directive which affects an incredible proportion of this country is one such example. Undoubtedly, it was never intended that the operation of the directive would penalise people to the extent of preventing them from carrying on their normal, traditional practices in making a living from the land. I fully acknowledge the need to protect the environment. However, the environment, habitats, natural features and ancient monuments were preserved to a much higher standard by farmers and property owners prior to the relevant EU directives being introduced. People were proud of their heritage and happy to protect it. Some mechanism must be found to explain those directives and implement them in a less penal manner. That would have a major impact on eliminating the objections of a significant element of the "No" vote in recent referenda on EU issues.

I hope the Minister of State, in the context of his special role in European affairs, will promote opportunities for greater involvement of this House in examining and debating EU legislation on a similar basis to the work of the Joint Committee on European Affairs. At one stage the volume of work in that committee made it necessary to bring in consultants to process the documentation and provide advice for the committee. I suggest that greater involvement of this House in the process would be a valuable contribution.

I welcome the Bill. In the absence of any financial implications, I see nothing contentious in its overall contents. However, I remind the Minister of State that, during the Nice treaty referendum campaign, it required our best endeavours, across the political spectrum, to get the support of very many people who were determined on voting "No" because of their deep dissatisfaction with the Government. In effect, the Government was spared on that occasion, but there will be another day to deal with the cruel cut-backs now being introduced in the aftermath of the deceit of the recent past. The Government only escaped because people were open to persuasion to place the long-term consideration of European enlargement before short-term concerns.

I join other Senators in welcoming the Minister of State. I wish him well in his ministerial portfolio and look forward to working with him on European policy issues. When I was given the assignment of speaking in the debate on this Bill and got down to researching and studying the matter with the assistance of the Department of Foreign Affairs, my initial feeling was one of being somewhat overwhelmed by eurospeak jargon. However, having reflected and thought the matter through, I agree with the Minister of State that the basic elements of the Bill are really quite simple in terms of endorsing the provisions of the treaty and incorporating them into domestic law. That is a necessary part of the process to enable the Nice treaty to take its place alongside earlier EU treaties dating back to 1972.

The Minister of State referred to the role of the European Court of Justice in relation to some elements of the treaty. Perhaps in his reply to the debate he will enlarge on the actual workings of EU institutions in that regard. I am interested in all the institutions and their role, also in the various treaties, the Coal and Steel Community, the upgrading of the central bank systems in Europe, as well as the European Central Bank. I began to think about this area and realised that I did not understand where it fitted into my thinking. I did not think about it before but perhaps I am slow in my approach to the background. Perhaps we all are and this is the problem. Seán Citizen would say that he does not know what is going on. This is a golden opportunity to launch our interest in Europe and perhaps the best place to do it is from this Chamber.

The first "No" vote may have created huge concerns for applicant countries but, in hindsight, it did us a favour. Each of us had to start thinking about the problems. They were divided into two areas. People had no difficulty with the concept of enlargement. We wanted other countries to join, as we did in 1972. The problem was the future of Europe and its impact on Irish citizens. The referendum failed the first time because we took the people for granted. I did not canvass because I thought it was a fait accompli, nothing to do with me. However, the public told me it had to do with me. People were not prepared to vote for something they knew nothing about. In hindsight, the “No” vote stimulated discussion on the reason for the failure of the proposed amendment, on the feeling that Europe was far removed, and that there was a democratic deficit and no control over proposals made and ratified in Europe which we had no opportunity to discuss.

This was why the forum on Europe was founded. I compliment its chairman, Senator Maurice Hayes. He was intuitive enough to know how to guide the debate on the future of Europe. He took it away from Dublin Castle and brought it to the four corners of Ireland. He invited anyone who was interested to engage in a free exchange of ideas and opinions on how to move forward. I congratulate him on having the foresight to know what was needed and to tap into the fundamentals of Europe.

The Nice treaty will be ratified and we must continue the debate on Europe to see where we go from here. What kind of a model do we want for Europe? What kind of institutions do we want? Should we be integrated into Europe while retaining our individuality? How best can we do this? These are the questions I ask. We have been given ownership of the European project.

I congratulate the Government on providing that any legislation or proposals to Brussels will be fielded first by the Joint Committee on European Affairs. Only through the Oireachtas can we have accountability to the public. There have been directives and regulations of which we only heard when they were finalised in Europe. We had no input into the discussions on the proposals and their implementation. Perhaps it was the failure of the first Nice referendum which caused us to start thinking.

Senator Burke talked about how best to use this Chamber to reach out to the public. We have a golden opportunity to highlight aspects of directives or regulations which worry people. We can invite them in. The President of the European Parliament, Mr. Pat Cox, discussed with us his ideas on the future shape of Europe. I welcome greater use of the Chamber.

The media have a huge role to play and I wonder if we will get two minutes of media time tonight. There are five or six of us here and they will say there are only four present. This discussion concerns an important element of ratification of the Nice treaty which will launch the accession of the ten countries who are ready to join the European Union. It is an opportunity for the media to tell the public we are trying to reach out to them. We cannot do it alone. I ask the media to give us a chance to do the work for itself and for Seán Citizen.

There is a select committee which cannot include Senators because it deals only with legislation. Could Senators who are interested in the subject become involved? I am only coming to grips with the subject and must ask questions. I understand the concept of the European Convention and that it is made up of parliamentarians, ministers, MEPs and members of the Commission. Will the Convention reach out to European citizens? I am a little unclear on this and would like the Minister to explain it. There are a number of elements, the select committee, the joint Oireachtas committee, the Houses of the Oireachtas, the Council of Ministers and the Commission and we can become bogged down. We need to clarify our role in reaching out to members of the public to reassure them that we reflect their views. It is why I am here and what I have to do. I want to give people feedback on how we are doing and how we can shape the future of Europe.

This is a small country but it is fantastic. Its geographic location is beautiful because it makes us independent. We want to be part of Europe but we are unique in that we are apart from the mainland and can have our own style. How best can we integrate European thinking and retain our identity as a nation in our culture, language and lifestyle? There is a fear that we will become absorbed in Europe to the extent of being more European than Irish. I want the opposite. I want us to be Irish and participate in Europe. That is the way I want to go forward.

I have given the Minster a few thoughts and I look forward to working with him in all the areas I have mentioned. This is the launching pad for the ratification of the treaty. We can now go forward in Europe with a broad brief as to its future and how we can be part of it while retaining our identity. Today we are taking steps to put this in motion. I look forward to the discussion continuing for many months.

I endorse the general approach taken in the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, 2002, which reflects the approach to treaty changes over the last ten years or so, since the Single European Act. It is right that we should reserve issues that arise under the second and third pillars for debate within the Oireachtas as far as possible, while translating Community issues straight into Irish law. I looked at the treaty to see if I could match them up, but I quickly realised that it is more useful to trust one's legal advice rather than second-guessing it. It is beyond me how the Government decided that one approach was suitable for the treaties and another for second and third pillar issues. The Labour Party certainly endorses the general approach from a political point of view, however.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs will have had a much more pleasant time at the recent meeting of the General Affairs Council as a result of the ratification of the Treaty of Nice. I welcome the outcome of the Council's deliberations as it is useful that we have a specific timetable for the accession of the ten countries which are waiting to join the Union. It is right that the states in question should be given adequate time to make a decision on the accession treaties when they are signed.

A number of issues that arise in that context should be considered. As I said at a meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs last week, I am not sure if we should look to admit Cyprus without a resolution of the issues that remain between the two parts of that divided island. We hope the talks currently under way, brokered by the United Nations, will lead to a resolution of the issue in advance of accession. The decision to admit Cyprus has been taken and it is unlikely that it will be reversed.

The more important matter of the admission of Turkey to the European Union is also worthy of consideration. This issue has implications beyond the accession of Turkey as it brings into play an issue touched on by Senator Ormonde – our citizens' sense of ownership of, and confidence in, the Union. Without wishing to endorse specifically the recent remarks of the former President of France, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, I believe there is merit in many of his sentiments. If we are to have a sense of ownership of the European project, as citizens of Ireland and of Europe, we have to have a sense of identity with what we think of as Europe. One cannot go beyond the boundaries of Europe in looking to create that sense of identity as to do so is to risk losing it. People in Ireland, Finland or Portugal do not believe that Europe extends to the Turkish border with Iraq as it is simply not the case.

If Turkey is admitted to the EU, it will be the largest member state in terms of population and size, meaning that the Union will be irrevocably changed both in terms of what it already is and what it can aspire to become. Turkey's accession would inevitably mean that the Union would remain a loose association of nation states for the foreseeable future. I do not want to see such a Union as I believe in deepening the nature of the relationship between the member states. It seems that the Government does not share my interest in that regard, an issue to which I will return. There is merit in being candid by saying to our Turkish friends that while we will deal with them in terms of economic agreements and including them in the Single Market regulations, we do not believe that Turkish membership of the EU is possible. The bulk of Turks are not European and do not aspire to being European. The United States of America would not admit Mexico because Mexico is not part of the US and never will be.

I read with some concern last week the Estimates for the Department of Foreign Affairs and perhaps the Minister of State will clarify one or two matters in that regard. During visits to the accession states last year, the Taoiseach and the President announced that diplomatic representatives are to be based in Slovenia, Estonia and Slovakia. I believe a decision has been taken, in principle, to establish resident embassies in all the accession states. The Estimates indicate that the budget for the Department of Foreign Affairs will decrease by 5% next year. It would be helpful if the Minister of State would clarify whether our intention to establish resident embassies in the accession states has been deferred by virtue of the decisions taken by the Departments of Finance and Foreign Affairs. I also noted with concern that the specific heading in the Estimates which deals with pre-accession assistance to EU candidate countries has been cut by 8%. I am not sure that this measure sends out the preferred signal in the immediate aftermath of the Nice treaty referendum.

The Minister of State touched on some broader EU issues in the latter part of his contribution. Now that the Nice treaty has been passed by the electorate, there is a danger that the interest in the European project will be allowed to wane. I agree with other speakers that the debate we have had on Europe in the last three months has been healthy, generally speaking, and that it would be wrong to allow it to come to a halt. Major decisions are being taken in the context of the Convention on the Future of Europe. As Senator Ormonde said, it is important that both Houses should play a part in determining the outcome of the convention. The Minister of State, for the first time to the best of my knowledge, spelt out the Government's approach when he said he believes that the Government and the Irish people are "broadly comfortable with the current distribution of competence between member states and the Union" and that they are happy with the balance of power between the various elements of the Union. I do not agree with the Minister's remarks, as I believe they betray the Government's complacency and contradict what is said elsewhere.

We have to confront a serious problem. There should be greater democracy and accountability in the European Union; we are blue in the face hearing it and articulating it in recent months. When one pursues what people mean by these ideas, however, one quickly runs into a series of contradictions. It appears that when the Government says the EU should be more accountable or democratic, it means that we should emphasise the intergovernmental aspects of the EU. In other words, the Government, through the Council of Ministers, should basically be able to say "Yea" or "Nay" and the other elements of the EU, such as the Commission, the Parliament and the European Court of Justice, should retain the competences they already have, or indeed lose them. I do not share that view of how to make the Union more democratic as such ideas do not help to make the institutions of the Union more democratic.

The Government's view is that the national veto and national sovereignty should be supreme. While such mechanisms have worked reasonably well up to now, I do not believe they are sustainable in the context of an enlarged Union which will have almost twice as many member states as the present Union, 27 as opposed to the current 15. In the changed circumstances we will face intergovernmentalism and the predominant position of the Council of Ministers is neither sustainable nor desirable. If we are to look to enhance the powers of the Commission and the Parliament, as I believe we should, we have to ensure they are connected back down to the nation states. Ideas such as those put forward by other countries, such as the election of the President of the Commission by the Parliament or directly, are useful and welcome. It is a shame that the Government is complacently standing back and saying it is quite happy with the division of competence as it stands. I do not believe the current division can be sustained or that we should look to sustain it.

As I understand it, the Government's position on the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights is that while it finds it interesting as a statement of general principle, it does not intend to give it any effect in law. This is a short sighted approach, although I do not underestimate the difficulties of marrying our Constitution with an international declaration. Our approach to the European Convention on Human Rights, which is over 50 years old, is that it has persuasive force but it does not override our Constitution. Ireland undertakes, generally speaking, to give effect in Irish law to the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. Given that the list of countries subscribing to the European Convention on Human Rights will soon be almost the same as the list of member states, I do not think it would have been difficult to devise a mechanism whereby the convention can be amalgamated with the charter and that, in turn, can be related to the Irish Constitution. I appreciate that there are legal difficulties but we should look to overcome them nevertheless. If Europe is to be more than a Single Market or a businessman's Europe, it has to be grounded in rights which are given to individual European citizens. These rights, in turn, have to be enshrined in a charter or a basic law. I do not think it would be beyond the wit of our legal people to relate that to the Irish Constitution. Instead, I understand the Irish position is that while this is all very interesting and full of good ideas, we do not intend to implement it in a serious way, which I regret.

We must reconsider the issue of tax harmonisation. It has been a particular mantra in recent years of the more right wing element of the Government, including the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance, that we do not want to go down this road. However, it ignores the fact that we are already well down that road in regard to a number of other taxes such as excise duty and VAT. I believe we must consider providing for a minimum level of corporation tax. The level will shortly be 12.5%, the lowest in the European Union as it currently exists. I would put any money on it that in a few years' time 12.5% will be quite excessive vis-à-vis the level of corporation tax which will then be levied by some of the accession countries. We will very shortly find ourselves whingeing, as others have done to us, that our foreign direct investment into Ireland is being snatched away unfairly by the accession states which are levying a lower rate of corporation tax. We will very quickly find ourselves in a position where we must contemplate cutting public services because we cannot sustain the level of corporation tax. I do not think we need to go down that road but we need a change in thinking. We need those with a little more foresight than the current Minister for Finance or the current Tánaiste to give some thought to this issue. They will quickly conclude that it is in Ireland's national interest, quite apart from the broader issues involved, to ensure, among other things, that we provide for a minimum level of corporation tax throughout the European Union.

I am very happy to endorse the approach being taken in the Bill. I am very pleased we are here and that the people endorsed the Nice referendum. As other Members said, there are lessons to be drawn from the way the campaign was run. The one thing we can all say with certainty is that the people can never again be taken for granted on these types of issues. Now is the time to begin debating the greater issues of the convention which will undoubtedly be put to the people by way of referendum in two or three years' time.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and commend the all-party leadership shown in the recent Nice referendum. I congratulate in particular Deputy John Bruton and our Leader, Deputy Kenny, who had the vision and foresight to realise this was not a political mission. As it was in the interests of the people we decided to leave politics out of it.

I would like to refer to the parochial element of Donegal in light of the recent referendum where 64% of the people decided not to vote. I pre-empted this when I spoke to the Minister about the issue prior to the referendum and I also mentioned it to the MEP, Pat Cox. Some 64% of people in Donegal, a regional peripheral location, probably one of the most peripheral regions of the European project, locked in between Northern Ireland and bordering just a seven mile stretch with the Republic, decided that the European project was meaningless. They felt completely disenfranchised as was shown in the democratic deficit in the recent referendum. Lessons must be learned from this. There will be other referenda when the same scaremongering will take place about the democratic deficit. Rather than being critical, we should be constructive. We should consider seriously proposals from the committee of regions and the assembly of European regions where there is serious talk about subsidiarity, regional autonomy and giving more power and responsibility to local authorities and local regions.

Perhaps it was an oversight on the part of the Leader of this House but my colleague, Senator Burke, asked for an immediate debate on the Border, midland and western regions. The former Minister and Leader of the House failed to respond to this request, even though I know she did not mean it. However, it is indicative of what is happening in the country whereby a BMW region was set out. This was basically a paper region to apply for Objective One status which had no structures. The European Union still has the power and ability to set up structures, whether at regional or local authority level, particularly nowadays when the Minister for Finance is withdrawing funding from local authorities because of the state of the economy. We must begin to empower local authorities through the European Union.

I have tabled a motion for the next Donegal County Council meeting seeking a pilot European Union office, a tangible office where people can come in off the street and get information on Europe. They could find out about their entitlements, what is happening and what will happen in Europe. That is the only way to instil confidence in the democratic process at European level. We have already done this at Donegal County Council level. We have opened two new decentralised offices, one in Millford and one in Carndonagh, where people can come in off the street, find out about the local authority, which was centralised in Lifford, and pay their car tax. If there was a European sub-office in one of the offices, it would help to instil confidence in the European process. This brings me to local government reform in general. This aspect could be tied in to local government reform if we are serious about the issue.

I welcome the recent Nice referendum result which sends out a very positive message to the rest of Europe. If one were to survey the 64% of people who did not vote in the referendum, we would find that they did want enlargement. Basically it was a complicated project of which they did not feel part. They felt isolated from the process, which is a challenge we cannot ignore. However, if we ignore it, we will do so at our peril.

The contributions have been most interesting and it is extraordinary how they overlap with the ongoing discussions on the convention. I am pleased to conclude the Second Stage debate and I am grateful for the support of Members. I am gratified that the approach adopted in the Bill has universal approval, particularly the decisions made on those issues which were kept outside the regulation making competence of the European Communities Act, 1972.

As I made clear at the outset, the Bill is very technical in character. However, it touches on a huge range of areas. It seeks to amend the European Communities Act, 1972, by adding relevant sections from the Treaty of Nice to the list of European Union treaties set out in the Act. There have been similar amendments in all the other cases where we have ratified treaties. This is a well tried and proven approach. Assuming that we deposit our instrument of ratification in December, the Treaty of Nice will, as a result of the work we are doing here, finally take effect on 1 February 2003.

I will refer briefly to the contributions made by Members. Senator Burke made the point that we must address the difficulties and fears of a sizeable proportion of the population who voted "No". This theme was carried through in virtually all the other contributions. Senator McHugh finished on that particular point. The Senator is correct in saying there is a need for us to be involved in an ongoing process of communication with citizens in regard to the European Union. This is very important because we are part of Europe. We contribute to Europe in all sorts of ways.

As I mentioned earlier, we have a lack of confidence in our capacity to play a role in Europe. This is completely unwarranted considering what we did in October and the level of debate. When it comes to European affairs we have, if not an unparallelled grasp, a grasp which is unusual in European states. A Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs in one of the incoming states told me that during the course of the referendum campaign he arrived in Dublin and was travelling by taxi with a voluble driver who was talking about the Nice treaty. The minister asked the taxi driver how the referendum would go and the driver said, stroking his chin, that he was not terribly certain. He then confounded his passenger by launching into a long, learned diatribe on enhanced co-operation and qualified majority voting. The minister told me that if the degree of expertise of the taxi driver existed in some ministries abroad, he would be quite happy.

Senator Burke is right in that there is a need for ongoing debate. Senator McDowell also touched on this in his contribution. Debate is essential on where we are going in Europe and the future of Europe. As I said earlier to the chairperson of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs, I am anxious that the debate be opened to the public so that it does not merely take place between Departments or Ministers. This is critically important. While we might differ on some of the issues, I agree with both Senators. It is not sufficient for us to dismiss some of the arguments that were made. Senator Burke mentioned people's fears about neutrality. It is not enough for us to say that has been addressed in the declaration or in the new constitutional amendment. We must understand what people are concerned about, listen to their fears and allay them. We must respect their views. One of the most important lessons of the last debate was that we must respect that there are different views on this issue. We will never reach absolute consensus on everything, although we are all aiming in the same direction.

Senator Burke mischievously referred to my own interest in public administration and how it relates, in the most general sense, to the citizen. I agree with him. I made this point in the convention debate – if the EU in its many aspects loses contact with its citizens, the cause has been lost. It is important that issues such as proportionality be borne in mind by administrators when they are applying rules which, although they say they originate in Brussels, frequently originate here. The point at which the State or the EU interfaces with the powerless citizen is always important in public administration. The lesson should be learned that the citizen's view should always be borne in mind.

The Senators are right when they suggest that some of the antipathy reflected towards Europe is really antipathy towards an administrative process which does not adequately recognise the frailties of human beings and lumps everybody who makes an error on a form together with those who wish to be criminal. Nobody in this House or the other House – nobody I have ever met in public life – would support criminality. We want our administrators to operate with a modicum of humanity. That is one of the facets of the process at the heart of the Convention on the Future of Europe – issues such as simplification are being dealt with and people's views deserve to be taken on board.

Senator Ormonde is quite right in saying that this is a technical Bill. The aim, however, is very simple. The Senator did make an interesting point when she referred to the difficulty in coming to grips with the complexity of the different competences within the Community. She spoke, for example, of the competence of the European Court of Justice and how there is a need for work to be done on this. This arises at the Convention on the Future of Europe. There is a rather peculiar working group called Complementary Competencies in which it is being discussed. Another section of the convention, in which legal personality is being discussed, is dealing with the creation of a single, homogeneous, unified European Union with fewer of the complications to which the Senator made reference.

Senator Ormonde also dealt with the Convention on the Future of Europe. It is not my place to provide a brief on the Convention on the Future of Europe but if Members of the Seanad were interested in having a debate on that it would be very useful.

We asked for that.

I would be willing to co-operate with the Senators. Senator Ormonde will know this from yet another forum earlier today, but if any Senator is interested in the future of Europe debate and where the convention is going, I will do my best to provide as objective a briefing as possible. It is important that we learn from the past and engage everybody in the community in debate. The debate does not belong only to the Government or to those in political parties but to the whole citizenry.

Senator McDowell's contribution was interesting and challenging. I was pleased with his endorsement of the general approach adopted in the Bill. He is correct in saying that it is a good thing to keep issues arising under the second and third pillars, most of which require legislation, for debate in the Oireachtas. We should continue to do this. I suspect that at the back of the Senator's mind when he made his contribution, was the debate during the recent referendum on the fact that there was rubber-stamping of material coming from Europe without primary legislation being put through the House. In the areas to which he made reference, this Bill retains the requirement of primary legislation and will not go down the secondary legislation route.

I am not sure that I agree with some of the other views expressed by the Senator. He will hardly be surprised by that. I disagree with him, for example, on his suggestion that saying the Irish people are generally happy with the balance displays a degree of complacency. He must accept my assurance that this is not the case. There has been a fair degree of analysis of where those balances are and what is most appropriate to Ireland as a small nation. He will accept, although I do not suggest that he wanted to go beyond this, that the current balances within the Community, broadly speaking, are very favourable to smaller states. We should be careful not to open a Pandora's box and disturb those balances. By being conservative in that sense, we know what direction is best for our interests. The Senator made a number of interesting contributions on the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights and whether it should be incorporated into the forthcoming treaty or annexed to it and how and where it will apply. Again, a wider debate is needed here.

The Senator also made reference to taxation. All the Members will shortly become aware that I issued a very strong letter to the president of the convention pointing out that we must defend the right of nation states to make the ultimate decision on taxation. I see the Senator's point that there is a reason for debate on this within Europe, but the very strong view we are taking—

We are only happy when we are undercutting everybody else. When they start to undercut us we will have a problem.

We will be undercut, as the Senator knows. In Estonia there is a zero rate of corporation tax. Notwithstanding this, we need to be very careful. I put a marker down at the convention the week before last and made it absolutely clear that we were not prepared to surrender an inch. It is not just the Irish who are concerned. The Swedes take a similar view and are strongly opposed to interference in this area. The issue relates generally to the policies operated by governments in their own states. The British would be of the same view. There are a couple of states lined up on the issue.

Senator McDowell made the point that we must learn from the last referendum. We need to look at the reports. He mentioned the Committee of the Regions. An interesting report has been produced by one of the working groups which deals with subsidiarity within the convention. There is a related report by one of the working groups that deals with the role of national parliaments. If the Seanad decided to debate this area, it would be interesting to discuss those issues. Subsidiarity and its meaning are being dealt with. It is interesting how they are being dealt with by the convention. It has recognised that, although the term "subsidiarity" has been broadly used before, it has not been tightly tied down.

Before Senator McDowell asks, I am not certain what the dates are for the opening of our embassies in the accession states, but I am sure that they will open as funds allow.

Will they be affected by the decisions made in the Estimates process?

I could only guess at this time.

Will the Minister for State find out for us?

Certainly.

It is noticeable that accession states are opening resident embassies all over Dublin. The Slovenian Embassy has opened on Dawson Street, but we still have very few residential embassies in the countries concerned bar the two or three biggest ones. It would be detrimental to our economic as well as political interests if the process of opening embassies were to slow down as a result of short-term cuts.

We are about to open embassies in Slovenia and Estonia. I will come back with the details.

Senators have been concerned about the quality of EU legislation and its impact on the public. Senator Ormonde mentioned the role the media have to play. I do not want to knock the media, but extraordinary work has been done in the Oireachtas, particularly by the Oireachtas joint committee, dealing with some of the complex issues that have come from Europe and it has not received the time it merits, particularly in the electronic media. The media played a very positive role in the referendum, with the team on "Morning Ireland" making a contribution by defining the key issues in a non-judgmental way. That was absolutely marvellous public service broadcasting. Without being partisan, the programme teased out issues.

Complex issues are now arising in the convention and deserve attention. The convention is very open, but Irish citizens will not know it exists unless the electronic media refer to it. Compliments are due to the print media because they have people on the ground while RTÉ has sent a full-time correspondent. They make valuable contributions which are edited out because there are limits to the space available. If we are to engage people in the debate and engagement is to be paid something other than lip service, there is a role to be played by the media as well as by public representatives.

It was implicit in Senator Burke's contribution that too often people equate the European Union with unnecessary bureaucratic meddling. It must be pointed out that the meddling and bureaucracy are more domestic than European. There has been a tendency for politicians to blame Europe for issues regarded as unpopular. That is a dishonest approach because nothing comes out of Europe that ultimately does not have the imprimatur of the Governments of member states. We should not lose sight of this.

The European Communities (Amendment) Bill concerns the legislative implementation of directives once adopted by the Union. If there are problems in the legislation, we can look for solutions domestically. We will not always win the debates in Europe, but should be willing to play an active role. When something unpopular comes forward, we should accept that it is the consensus view.

As usual, I am grateful to Senators for their contributions which have been thought provoking and useful. I hope they get the attention and time they deserve later tonight.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Now.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

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