Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 2003

Vol. 171 No. 10

Order of Business.

Ms O'Rourke

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re the recommendation of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; No. 2, statements on the progress made in implementing the National Drugs Strategy 2001-2008, to be taken after No. 1 until 1.30 p.m. with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Members may share time; No. 3, Criminal Law (Insanity) Bill 2002 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 6 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Members may share time; and No. 13, motion No. 25, to be taken between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. There will be a sos between 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m.

On a point of information, No. 1 is a motion to facilitate three debates in this House about the Convention on the Future of Europe. It will allow Deputy John Bruton, who is a member of the praesidium which is debating the future of Europe in the convention, to address the House and to answer questions. Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, will address the House between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 February, Deputy Dick Roche, Minister of State with special responsibility for European affairs, will attend a debate in the House on Tuesday, 4 March, between 3.15 p.m. and 5.15 p.m. and Deputy John Bruton will be here on Wednesday, 12 March, from 2.30 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. Mr. De Rossa and Deputy Roche are entitled under existing Standing Orders to address the House and a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges yesterday agreed that Deputy John Bruton should also be allowed to do so. No. 1, a motion to that effect, will be moved after the Order of Business has been agreed.

I am sure the three debates will be interesting. They will represent the first opportunity for the Oireachtas to listen to the thoughts of the three men involved in this important process, as such discussions have not taken place in the other House.

Mr. B. Hayes

I do not oppose the Order of Business. I asked the Leader yesterday if she is prepared to provide time for Opposition business tomorrow, given that the House is not scheduled to meet, and I repeat that request today. The Government is not proposing any items for tomorrow's business, but the Opposition has at least 14 separate items on the Order Paper. It would be appropriate that time should be set aside for Opposition business tomorrow if the Government cannot produce business of its own. I ask the Leader to comment on that matter.

I agree with the proposal made yesterday by Senator Brady with regard to suicide. It is important that this issue should be debated. It is one of the biggest killers of young men in Ireland and I agree with the Senator that there is an urgent need for the House to debate the progress, if any, being made by the various Departments involved. I urge the Leader to organise a debate on this issue.

The Leader is aware that when the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998 there were implicit commitments, North and South of the Border, regarding human rights legislation. The legislation in Northern Ireland was passed four years ago, but, some five years after the Agreement was signed, we in the South still have to put in place a new regime for human rights. I am aware that the Government proposed the European Convention on Human Rights Bill 2001, but that has still to be passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Will the Leader endeavour to discover where is the Bill in question and what are the remaining difficulties which prevent the Government enacting it swiftly? We cannot lecture other states about their need for human rights legislation when there is no change to our legislation. This was an implicit commitment to all citizens, North and South. However, that commitment has not been put in place in the South during the past five years, which is ridiculous.

Mr. O'Toole

On two occasions last year, I raised the question of the function of auctioneers and how they operate. I suggested that the House should look at the way they do business, their duties and their responsibilities. On both occasions, I received strong support from all sides of the House and Members felt that something should be done.

There should be a discussion on how this profession might be regulated properly. There are people involved in it who drag down the good name of decent people. The vast majority of auctioneers are decent people who do decent work, but there have been cases, detailed at the tribunals and elsewhere, of prices being bumped up in the case of young people buying houses. There have been high profile cases where auctioneers have been both buyers and sellers of land, which is grossly unfair to ordinary consumers.

This is a consumer issue and should be looked at in that way. From talking to people in the profession, I have no doubt that it would welcome some arrangement which would keep control over the cowboys involved in it. There is a motion on the Order Paper in the name of Senator Ross and other Independent Members seeking the establishment of a committee to consider the matter. Whatever about that, there should be a debate on this matter in order that we could be given the Government view and hear the thoughts of the appropriate Minister.

Everybody in the House has a view on how the profession should operate. It operates differently in other jurisdictions, where consumers must be told if there are other bids and what are the relevant amounts. We need to look at this matter seriously.

This is an appropriate time for a debate on neutrality. There is confusion on the issue and neutrality can now mean anything and everything to anybody who wants to speak about it. No one distinguishes between the various forms – military, moral, political or otherwise – of neutrality. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, the former Minister, Mr. Dick Spring, and the former Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, have articulated clear views on these issues in the past ten years.

A discussion has to take place on this because there is utter confusion about it. I will not open a debate on it now, but I would welcome an opportunity for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to put his views to the House for discussion. It does not matter if others have different views, but people should be forced to engage with the issue. Discussion is currently taking place on this matter in terms of the constitutional review, but it would be good to understand our position and outlook on this matter. I ask for a debate on neutrality.

Ms O'Meara

The Order of Business is agreed. I agree with Senator O'Toole that there appears to be confusion on the issue of neutrality and that is mirrored by the general confusion in Government on foreign policy. Only weeks ago, the Minister for Defence gave his, possibly personal, opinion that Ireland is no longer, if it ever was, neutral.

We stand at a crossroads with regard to foreign policy and we need clarity not confusion. Instead of that, we have been treated to a wait and see approach from a wait and see Taoiseach. Is he waiting to see whether another 100,000 people will march on the streets to express their concern about the possibility of war and the possibility of this State supporting unilateral action by abandoning its traditional support for a UN position? There is an urgent need for clarity on that and I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come before the House at the earliest opportunity to explain when the wait and see approach will end.

I understand from a report last week that the publication of the strategic rail review is imminent. When it becomes available, will the Leader arrange an early debate on its findings? I know she is amenable to this.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

I speak on behalf of an endangered species – the bean an tí in the Gaeltacht – and I hope to engage the support of the Leader in this regard. As a result of new guidelines from the Revenue Commissioners, it is almost certain that mná tí will no longer be available. There is hardly a Member in the House who cannot look back with affection on their first visit to the Gaeltacht. The bean an tí was the teacher, guardian and confidante.

Mr. B. Hayes

And security.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

It will be more difficult for the bean an tí in the future. It is particularly appropriate for the Seanad to debate this matter and the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs should come before the House because he has his finger on the pulse in regard to these matters. A recent survey on the Gaeltacht shows it to be more endangered than ever. If the bean an tí cannot be found to help with the summer courses, they will not proceed. It would show great leadership on the part of this House if we could show a united front and arrive at a solution to this problem.

Mr. Finucane

There have been many calls for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come before the House. When he does so, I hope he will not read a long script but that Members will be able to ask specific questions because there are many issues to be dealt with. For example, today's newspapers contain the story of the murder of a 24 year old Jamaican woman with two young children. The person who is supposed to have perpetrated this murder was on early release. What are the criteria for early release? Was any psychological assessment carried out on the person in question, particularly if he was in custody for serious assault?

When Ms Nora Owen was Minister for Justice, she was much maligned by the current Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, and Deputy Liz O'Donnell, when a person being escorted from prison escaped.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator—-

Mr. Finucane

The former Minister was vilified.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Mr. Finucane

I am looking for a decent question and answer session with the Minister during which I can relate to him many of the points I have raised.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator can ask those questions then.

Mr. Finucane

I certainly will.

Dr. M. Hayes

I support the request for a debate on suicide. This is a most important issue here and also in Northern Ireland. It would be helpful to know whether there had been any epidemiological or other studies made about the incidence of what is an extremely complex issue.

I support the request from Senator Brian Hayes for information about the human rights arrangements. He is correct that there is complementarity in the Good Friday Agreement, under which it is inherent that arrangements should be made in this jurisdiction. It is the subject of much comment and criticism, especially by Unionists in Northern Ireland. Apart from this, there is an intrinsic case for human rights protection and the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights in our domestic law, which should stand in its own right. It would be helpful to know when progress can be expected on this.

Mr. Coghlan

When is it proposed to introduce the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill which incorporates many of the recommendations of the accountancy review group ably chaired by Senator O'Toole? I agree with the Senator's call for a debate on neutrality. Given the diversity of views, there is widespread confusion to the extent that the country is in danger of lacking coherence and focus on the issue. We would not want it become another bit of scata bullán.

Dr. Mansergh

I support Senator Ó Murchú's call for a review of the new guidelines for the Revenue Commissioners and their implications for the bean an tí. As a former member of the tax strategy group, I am surprised at the move.

I also support the calls from the other side of the House for clarification on the issue of neutrality. There is nothing incompatible between neutrality and support for collective security under the United Nations, a point on which there is much confusion. The founder of the Constitution, Eamon de Valera, a great international statesman, was strongly of the view that the Executive should not be tied down on matters of foreign policy and fine judgment.

Mr. Browne

What is the Senator's question?

Mr. McHugh

I agree with the calls for a debate on suicide. The issue is predominantly concerned with the mental health of young males. In view of this, perhaps the debate should be widened to cover other mental health issues involving young men, especially given their involvement in violent crime and drug and solvent abuse. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, is very competent and open to considering intervention measures in this area. Society has a responsibility to address the issue because young men are dying.

Ms Terry

I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend the House to debate the issue of equal pay for women. At a recent conference Niamh Crowley of the Equality Authority and Gráine Healy of the National Women's Council of Ireland spoke about the lack of enforcement of the legislation in this area. They pointed out that women were getting 30% less than men for the same work. This is unacceptable. I hope the Minister will stop paying lip service by enacting legislation but not enforcing it.

Mr. Glynn

I also support the call for a debate on suicide. Only a few homes have escaped its long shadow. Many, if not all, of the health boards have helplines which should be utilised. General practitioners have a pivotal role to play. Those who "feel down", to use a phrase, should not be afraid to consult the appropriate qualified people. It is no sin to be depressed but some like to conceal it. Many of the problems in this area emanate from this.

Mr. Browne

I also support Senator Ó Murchú's call for a debate on the position of the bean an tí following the new guidelines issued by the Revenue Commissioners. I understand there are over 700 of them and that over 24,000 students avail of their facilities every year. Perhaps the Minister for Finance should address the House on the changes in the tax laws. A debate would be welcomed.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes referred to the business for tomorrow. I propose to arrange a meeting with the Whips immediately after the Order of Business to see what can be done. As I explained yesterday, the business for Thursday was arranged but then deferred. The Senator and many of his colleagues also supported Senator Brady's call yesterday for a debate on suicide. I agree that one should be held. Some Senators requested a multi-faceted debate involving different Ministers. I am not sure if that would be possible but it would be helpful if one was arranged with the relevant Minister. It is a huge issue. Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the human rights legislation promised in fulfilment of the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. I will make inquiries and advise the Senator.

Senator O'Toole referred to the role of auctioneers and inquired if it was time for the profession to be regulated. He also proposed a debate on neutrality.

Senator O'Meara supported the call for a debate on neutrality and sought clarification on foreign affairs matters. The Minister is doing a remarkable job in the way he is enunciating policy and representing Ireland at various fora. I understand he gave a very good account of himself on a television programme last night. I did not view it. The Senator also sought clarification on the railways review. She appears to have an insight on the matter. Having initiated the review when Minister for Public Enterprise, I would like to have it debated in the House.

Senator Ó Murchú referred to the important topic of the bean an tí. I am sure she saw many things in her day.

Mr. Dardis

Or turned a blind eye.

Mr. B. Hayes

She put the Stasi to shame.

Ms O'Rourke

I agree. I have mixed feelings about one bean an tí but that was a long time ago. Senator Ó Murchú requested the attendance of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to debate the issue. There is an ongoing debate in this area and I hope we can consider the matter in that context.

Senator Finucane requested a question and answer session on crime. I agree that would be the best way for the House to address the crime epidemic and I am seeking to arrange it but the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is busy presenting three Bills to both Houses.

Senator Maurice Hayes supported the call for a debate on suicide. He also questioned the current status of the human rights legislation promised as part of the Good Friday Agreement.

Senator Coghlan referred to the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill. Senator O'Toole played a great role as chairman of the accountancy review group. The Bill was to have been debated tomorrow but has been deferred. It will be taken first in this House. The House is initiating many new Bills. Two further ones will be debated next week.

Senator Mansergh also called for a debate on the bean an tí and pointed out that the foreign policy we were executing was being carried out in a very proper and comprehensive manner. He stated foreign policy must always take account of what is happening elsewhere in the world and not be tied down.

Senator McHugh suggested linking the debate on suicide with that on mental health, which was a good idea. Senator Terry raised the issue of equal pay for women. It sounds so odd that, 30 years after the then Commissioner Paddy Hillery dealt with the relevant European directive, there are still some areas of life in which this is still an issue. I think we are all paid the same amount in the Seanad.

Mr. McCarthy

Senator O'Rourke is paid more as Leader of the House.

Ms O'Rourke

Not much more. It should be a lot more.

An Cathaoirleach

Please allow the Leader to speak without interruption.

Ms O'Rourke

The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Dea, is in charge of equality, as his title suggests. Therefore, we could invite him to the House.

Senator Glynn joined in the call for a debate on suicide and said, very helpfully, that many of the health boards operated a helpline that people were free to ring. He also stated people should not be afraid to own up to depression. I agree fully with him because it is only when people share their problems that they have some hope of addressing them.

Did Senator Browne raise the matter of neutrality?

Mr. Browne

I asked about the bean an tí.

Ms O'Rourke

The mná must know what great friends they have in Seanad Éireann. Senator Browne made the realistic suggestion that the Minister for Finance was answerable on this question because it involved a declaration of income. Whether the issue of a declaration of income overrides the issue of the fine work done with young people over the summer holidays in the Gaeltachtaí will have to be addressed. Perhaps it could be addressed in the context of the Finance Bill.

On a point of information, yesterday the Committee on Procedure and Privileges agreed the terms of reference for Seanad reform. I have left an explanatory note on the terms of reference and the legislation in the Seanad Office and there is a copy for everybody in the audience.

Order of Business agreed to.