Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 2003

Vol. 171 No. 12

Local Government Bill 2003: Second Stage (Resumed).

That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Seanad Éireann declines to give the Bill a Second Reading for the following reasons:

a) the Bill confers powers onto the Oireachtas that are not envisaged by the Constitution,

b) the Bill deprives the people of an opportunity to vote for directly elected mayors in each administrative area, and

c) the Bill makes no provision to further devolve powers to locally elected councils".

–(Senator Bannon).

Dr. Mansergh

I expressed surprise earlier that the self-professed parties of reform such as Fine Gael and the Labour Party were opposed to the ending of the dual mandate. I am afraid that on this occasion they are what the Labour Party is pleased to call "the conservative parties".

I do not wish to conduct a seminar on the political philosophy of Garret Fitzgerald, but his excellent book Reflections on the Irish State deals with issues like the dual mandate. Dr. Fitzgerald considers that the combination of the electoral system and the fact that the vast majority of Deputies are also members of councils creates many problems. His primary concern is the knock-on effect for Ministers, up to and including the Taoiseach, who have to spend more time on constituency work than most of their European counterparts. That is not to say that a certain amount of this work is not positively healthy, but it is a question of proportion and balance.

One often hears the adage, "all politics is local", which was thrown at me on a recent local radio programme by a Fine Gael Senator. It is true in the sense that all politics has a local impact, but it is also a bit glib. If all politics really is local, what are we doing in this House and what are our colleagues doing in the Dáil? If we followed that rationale, we would be better off on county and town councils rather than bothering with Leinster House. In this regard, we sell ourselves a bit short because, if we are dealing with all the local politics – and this applies more to rural Deputies and Senators than their urban colleagues – who is dealing with the national or international issues? I am not just referring to Iraq and the Convention on the Future of Europe, but to budgetary matters such as tax and social welfare which affect everybody. Is it not legitimate that voices be heard from every part of the country on the issues common throughout the country rather than just those relevant to particular constituencies?

One can have legitimate arguments about elected mayors. This system clearly works well in some countries, like, for example, France where mayors have considerable prestige. One must take account of the political culture in every country. There is an egalitarian ethos among councillors in this country, much like that of the Presbyterian Church which does not want elected archbishops but rather a Moderator who changes each year. Being chairman of a local authority or Lord Mayor of Dublin or Cork is a fairly demanding job and there are benefits in giving people a term. The system works quite well and is popular. I do not know that there is any public complaint about the existing system. While I accept it is a matter for debate, the right decision has been taken on the issue.

The clauses in the Bill relating to access of Oireachtas Members to local authorities are vague. I hope there will be a more concrete recognition of the locus standi of Deputies and Senators regarding making representations and receiving information and assistance.

My memory of local elections goes back to 1985 when Fergus O'Brien was Minister for Local Government. A reform package is always brought forward just in time for the local elections in an attempt to motivate people, yet when one looks back, one wonders if much has changed. I would like to see more devolution and decentralisation. I do not mean establishing an office down the country to administer something for the whole country; rather, more decision-making powers should be given to local authorities, where appropriate. I have never been convinced of the efficiency of toing and froing to Dublin and the number of bureaucrats involved in matters to do with housing and schools. Central government holds too tight a rein on power.

It is important that where local authorities have powers, they do not abuse them. There may be an explanation for this but I am concerned about the events in Loughrea as reported in today's newspapers. It would be very wrong if land was rezoned simply to get more money from the NRA where money is already short enough. Perhaps that is not the proper explanation but clarification is required.

Mr. Bradford

I second the amendment proposed by Senator Bannon.

I believe the Minister is personally committed to local government reform and hope we get the chance to debate a substantial reform measure some time during his tenure. He does not pretend this deals with local government reform, rather it is a mechanism to bring an end to the dual mandate. I would like to see a more substantive package.

My comments on the dual mandate are in the record of the other House. For many years I have believed that if we want to take politics seriously and have strong local government, we must accept that one man or woman cannot properly do two jobs. The work of a local councillor is now a full-time job. I welcome the indication from the Minister that he is considering introducing a proper salary for local representatives. The sooner that happens the better but there is enough work to be done at local authority level to make it a five day week job.

There have been numerous debates on local government reform during my years in the Oireachtas in which we have heard the finest political platitudes. It is with regret that I say there has never been a meaningful attempt by any Government over the past 15 to 20 years to promote local government reform, the promotion of which would mean that the Oireachtas would have to transfer some of its power to locally elected representatives. When one examines the various committees which work in tandem with local authorities such as county and city enterprise boards, partnerships and area development groups etc., there is a huge amount of work that could be more effectively done at that level if a more hands-on approach was adopted by local councillors. This cannot be done at this time because it would be asking part-time politicians to do full-time jobs.

I would like to see a system of politics that would allow people to feel politically fulfilled by serving at local government level. If we are to be honest, most of those involved in local government aspire to serve in the national Parliament and see local government as a step on the career ladder – it should not be this way. Our system of local government should be strong enough that a career in it should be as laudable as it is in many European countries. The tough and painful political decisions must be taken centrally if we want to make this happen. We could talk until the cows come home about our electoral system but that is for another day. It is part of the problem that must be addressed if we are to have a form of national politics that will mean national debate and national decision-making.

Some of my colleagues have addressed their concerns about the constitutionality or otherwise of the ban on the dual mandate. While that will, presumably, be tested, I would be grossly hypocritical if I said anything other than the time has come for us to decide we can only do one job and realise that we are not super-politicians. I look forward to progress in this regard.

I fully support the Fine Gael amendment. We need to grasp the nettle and take on board the wider issue of making local government real, meaningful and strong. There are hundreds of people in communities who would love to play a role in local government but there is no meaningful role for them. Local government has virtually no power. The majority of time at local authority estimates meetings is spent debating the final few thousand euro. How different this is from the estimates debates which took place in local authorities during the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s when local councils had genuine power. We have gone backwards rather than forward where local government reform is concerned. If local government is to matter, it must be given additional powers and responsibilities.

In recent weeks the Minister spoke about the possibility of giving councils the power to consider local taxation. There are councillors in all parties who object to everything and they jumped on the usual bandwagon. However, if they are to demand extra powers, they must be willing to take on extra responsibilities. In recent weeks when the Seanad discussed waste management, the Minister pointed out – I cannot disagree – that in some areas councillors were simply unwilling to take hard decisions. That problem needs to be addressed. It is not a problem in my local authority where we have taken hard decisions on waste management.

I look forward to the day that the work and worth of the councillor are such that he or she will be working almost full-time in local and community politics. When that day arrives, it will inevitably mean that he or she cannot be an active member of Cork County Council and simultaneously a Member of the Oireachtas. It will not be possible to do the two jobs properly. That will require courageous leadership in the Oireachtas. It will demand of politicians at national level the courage to transfer power, responsibility and decision making to local authorities. All Members demand decentralisation. Therefore, let us now practise political decentralisation and make local government real and strong, as it was to some degree in the earlier part of the last century. Local health services were run by the local councillors no less effectively than they are run by the health boards today. Look at the success of the vocational education committees which are sustained by local government. This shows what can be done if we have the political initiative to let it happen.

We are missing a great opportunity to drive local government forward. The local elections will be held in 18 months and, unless we can make local government real, there will be a disappointing response from the public. Local elections are due to held in parts of Britain. I understand local elections are not held throughout the country on the same day but in different parts on different dates. Present indications are that turnout will be approximately 20%. That is a shocking indication of what happens when local government appears to be irrelevant.

I urge the Minister to look at the broader picture that needs to be addressed. There is a willingness among the public to respond if we are prepared to give leadership.

Mr. Glynn

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. What others discuss, this Minister does. This is a rare opportunity for Members of the Oireachtas to address, once and for all, the separation of local and national government. I have been involved in local politics for 24 years and heard ad nauseam about the need to establish local government in its own right.

As president of the AMAI, I headed an all-party committee which drew up a report on the reform of local government. One of the recommendations was recognition of local government in the Constitution. The objective was to give a realistic basis to the concept and existence of local government. That was done. Many on all sides of the political spectrum bemoan the fact that local government powers have been lost. Why are they lost? The reason is that when local elected representatives have powers, they do not have the bottle to use them. They take decisions about taking no decisions.

Responsibility comes with power. If people want power, they will need to have the power to raise money and the authority to spend it. That is power. In 1988, when I had the honour of being chairman of Westmeath County Council, it introduced a system of paid parking to bring much needed money into the coffers of the local authority, to implement certain traffic calming and regulatory measures and to turn over car parking spaces in the town. However, the minute the heat came on, people jumped ship. That is what has us in the current position.

This Bill is an opportunity. I appreciate that people on all sides of the political spectrum will be concerned about their positions as local authority members who hold the dual mandate. While I do not share that view, I respect those who hold it. Since the arrival of better local government, SPCs, area committees, county development committees, county development boards, strategic policy and so forth, membership of a county council and county borough council has become a full-time job. There was a clear recognition by the previous Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, that this had to be addressed in some fashion. Hence the introduction of the representational allowance.

I remember when the allowance was announced. The Minister said it was in recognition of the work of local representatives. It was most welcome and a ground breaking decision. The current Minister, Deputy Cullen, has indicated that in the future there will be full-time local authority members. It is axiomatic that it will happen. It is happening already and if people are working full time, they must be looked after in the established manner.

I wish to comment on our system of local government. Some time ago I was a member of a deputation to the European Union. One of the then Commissioners told us we had the most centralised system of local government in the Union. It is time colleagues on all sides of this House had the courage to draw a dividing line between local and national government. I accept that the delivery of services by a Member of the Oireachtas is pertinent to local authority matters. That is a fact of life. The Minister will have already heard in the course of this debate that there will have to be a definitive enshrinement, whether in legislation or regulations, of the rights of access by Members of the Oireachtas to local authorities. They must have rights in relation to documentation and all that goes with it. That is most important. It must also apply to health boards and vocational education committees. Members of the Oireachtas have an established national role which we must discharge. If the people who sent us here see this as our extended role, who are we to deny it?

I am nominated for the Seanad by the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland. There are a number of municipal authorities which serve bigger populations than some of our county councils. They are not county borough councils; some are town councils. Will the Minister ensure that they are given a more relevant role than they have at present? Apart from the five borough councils, towns like Bray, with a population of 30,000, Tralee, Ennis, Mullingar, Athlone and others have a definitive role to play in local government, and this must be recognised.

On local taxation and fundraising, there are people who, at the time for deciding on estimates for the year, oppose everything and are in favour of nothing. When the estimates committee meets and when decisions on statutory estimates are made, they will vote against everything. At all other local authority meetings, they table motions to spend hundreds of thousands of euro. These are the people who say to the Minister that he is removing their powers. I regret to say it, but they do not have the guts to pass a vote of sympathy not to mention vote through financial measures.

On the issue of directly elected mayors and chairmen, I have been lobbied by members of the three representative associations – the Local Authority Members Association, which represents councillors, the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland and the General Council of County Councils, which represent the corporate bodies – and have not heard anyone advocating the concept of directly elected mayors. When the Minister announced his decision, I was surprised by the number of non-Fianna Fáil members to whom I circulated who were happy to receive it. As would be said in another forum, with that I rest my case on this matter.

One is at a disadvantage at this stage in a debate because most of what one wants to say has already been said. Nothing is perfect and there probably will be teething difficulties with the legislation the Minister has brought before us. He will probably have to review certain aspects of the Bill and I do not doubt that he will do so.

We have an opportunity to give local government an opportunity to be an established entity in its own right. Let us think about the county councillors who elected 43 Senators to this House and who are discommoded on a weekly basis because they must hold meetings on days suitable to us, regardless of whether they are suitable to them. It is good enough for us, if we fail to be elected to the Dáil, to canvass them for their vote in order to gain election to the Upper House. However, it is not good enough for them to hold meetings on days that suit them. It is time we complimented our electorate – county and county borough councillors and the other local authority members who nominate some of us – because they are the people about whom I am concerned.

Mr. Feighan

I welcome the Minister. I hope he has warmed up after his trip to Strokestown on an extremely cold day last week. He saw at first hand and is aware of the commitment of councillors.

I learned about the vagaries of politics a little over four years ago. I sometimes wonder if I will ever learn. I grew up in an urban area, in Boyle town, and saw how people were disenchanted with the political system. They did not care. Senator Bradford alluded to the fact that there is a lack of enthusiasm for politics in urban areas which fortunately does not exist in rural areas. I had no great interest in politics. I was an activist involved in the local football club and the chamber of commerce and I was interested in whatever I thought was positive for the area. When councillors or politicians canvassed for votes, I prayed for rain, although I could say that in more undiplomatic terms.

Nonetheless, I went before my convention four years ago and became involved in what I now believe to be the only game in town, namely, politics and representing one's constituents. I was proud to have been elected to Roscommon County Council. I did not realise the importance of a county councillor and the difference he can make. He has the ear of the county manager, the respect of county council members and can do things for his area. As someone elected to Roscommon County Council in 1999, I am disappointed that I will not be able to stand for the council again. I am disappointed for the people who elected me to the council. I was subsequently elected to the Seanad and will not resign my seat to stand for the county council.

The Bill is a disappointment and is not a part of real local government reform. Two years ago I praised the previous Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, for introducing directly elected mayors. It is an insult to the electorate that his Bill abolishing the dual mandate and introducing directly elected mayors, which was not allowed to proceed because of political circumstances at the time, is being replaced by this Bill which does not allow for directly elected mayors. Of what is the current Minister afraid? There should be directly elected mayors in Dublin, Cork, the major towns and all county council areas. The Bill shies away from that. Directly elected mayors have been a huge success in London and other cities. The absence of a provision for them is one reason I am disappointed by the Bill.

I pride myself on being a local politician because all politics is local. As a Senator, I may not have the same influence with the local town clerk, county manager, county engineer or director of service as I would have as a county councillor. Therefore, the people in my town who elected me to the county council may not receive the same service for which they elected me.

It is difficult to find someone who would say that I cannot stand for public office. I do not want to raise the constitutional argument because this will stand or fall on its own merits. However, there are people, such as doctors and those who hold other occupations, who are able to stand for election to local authorities and county councils. It is because I am a Member of the Oireachtas that I will not be able to stand for the county council.

Value for money was referred to. I do not get paid a salary for my council work but that work accounts for 90% of what I do politically. While I do not want to be paid, I want to provide a voice for the people in my area. Considering those who are standing down, it will cost €1.4 million extra to fund the county councillors who will step into my place. It is not about money. While I have heard we will get compensation, I do not want it.

Mr. Cullen

The Senator does not have to take it.

Mr. Feighan

That remark is not necessary. The compensation figure being bandied about is €5,000. I have only been a member of Roscommon County Council for less than four years. Some have been members for 25 or 30 years. I do not want to get into the costs involved. It is not right to offer a derisory amount on a take it or leave it basis to anybody who has been in a job for that long.

No doubt Government Deputies and Senators will vote for this and I may have to accept the Bill will be passed. While I acknowledge I will not be able to stand at the next council election, I appeal to the Minister to permit directly elected mayors because this would help democracy.

There is a cosy cartel. I am not casting aspersions or suggesting the councillors cannot do the job but they do not want Deputies and Senators coming down and giving them grief. Part of the Department has been instrumental in ensuring Deputies and Senators will not stand for office because once we are out of the way they will be able to do what they like. I have only been a councillor for four years but we will get rid of a wealth of experience when we eliminate the dual mandate. The Minister is doing a good job and is enthusiastic about what he does. If he must eliminate the dual mandate, I ask him to permit directly elected mayors.

Ms Ormonde

I welcome the Minister. This debate has been flogged to death and I thank the Minister for putting it to bed once and for all. It started in 1990 when Ministers and Ministers of State were prohibited from holding a dual mandate. In 1994 all Oireachtas Members were precluded from holding key positions in local authorities. There was a long discussion at the time to outline where we should go from there. The same debate took place during the discussion of the 2001 Bill when I said the time had come to end the dual mandate. I say that with some grief. While I said directly elected mayors should not be introduced, I had reached the stage where it was becoming physically impossible for me to do two jobs at the one time.

As a grass roots person, I loved being a county councillor. I wanted to deal with the issues as they arose on the ground because all politics was local. That is where the core of politics is and it is very gratifying to do something for a person in one's area. I have chosen this road and I am now a Senator. I found it difficult to do the job I wanted to do because I was a professional. I wanted to be as much a professional as a county councillor as I was as a Senator. I had awful problems doing the two jobs and realised it was time to make a decision. While I did not like the decision, I realised I could not do the two jobs. The Minister has outlined this issue which has been reflected on all sides of the House. We have to make choices between the two hats and the implications are colossal.

There is now a divide between the local and national interest. When speaking about one of the sections in the Bill, the Minister talked about us having access to information. This might mean access to the agenda but that means nothing. Some local authorities have access through the Internet. Any member of the public can get the ordinary information on the Internet but a member of the council has detailed access. The Minister must ensure access means availability to the same kind of information county councillors have. This must be spelled out. Some Deputies who are no longer councillors have told me they do not have real access. When they telephone to inquire about a planning reference, they are told whether it has been refused but do not get the reasons. A local authority member will get the details. When introducing the guidelines, the Minister must make sure access means getting the same information as county councillors have.

I am sorry that I had to leave the council but that was my choice. I would have preferred to do the two jobs if that was possible. While I prefer to deal with the public, I also like my work here. I understand councillors also want us off the councils as we were dictating when meetings should be held because we were not available on certain days. That was not fair to non-Oireachtas Members. I felt I had no right to lay down ground rules about meetings. I cannot be in the two places at the one time and cannot be selfish. I had to decide how I wanted to shape my career in the future.

There will be such an influx of new councillors that I will have an awful job to get to know them, which causes me some apprehension. However, I will find a way around this. I am sure the Minister will make sure that we will not lose access to the councillors who form our electorate. I feared I would lose contact with the councillors, whom I love. The local councillors schooled me and let me know what politics were all about. Most of us have gone through this. Being a member of a local authority is the greatest schooling we can get. It lets us feel the pulse of what is happening on the ground. Understanding the procedures at councils helped me understand the procedures here, which are very similar. There is much knowledge to be gained. I encourage the public to become involved in local government. The Minister has indicated he will introduce changes in the funding and power structures of local authorities.

We have come a long way since I started in local government in 1985 – other Senators can go back further than me. Back then, we did a considerable amount of work for nothing. I would do it again because I am not involved in politics for the money, although I also like it. I entered local government because I considered it a vocation and liked being involved. My local authority gave my first breath in politics.

Having said that, local government is becoming a professional and absorbing career. Unless we make it worthwhile, young people will not give up their careers to become involved. The number of meetings held every week is extremely time consuming. One cannot do two jobs at once. County councillors cannot hold down another job. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for allowing a little latitude. I congratulate the Minister and look forward to working with him in shaping the future of local government.

Debate adjourned.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Kitt: Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.