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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 2003

Vol. 171 No. 17

Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003: Committee Stage.

SECTION 1.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

I oppose this section. To do so might appear strange, particularly in light of the fact that section 1 is the definition section and provides the Title to the Bill. The latter is entirely incorrect. While the Bill is called the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003, it contains little that applies to freedom of information and represents an emasculation of the principle of freedom of information contained in the 1997 legislation. In that regard, the explanation of the Bill is incorrect. This legislation should be more correctly termed the "Freedom from Information" Bill.

The Bill was debated at length on Second Stage. A great deal of media commentary has been generated by Government's extraordinary action to bring forward this outrageous legislation. It does not surprise me that it has generated such heat. At its heart, the Bill represents an abuse of power and rolls back a right that was given to the people in 1997 by a Government clearly mandated to formulate the statutory right of freedom of information as part of our democracy. In undermining the fundamental principle of freedom of information, the Government is undermining a foundation stone of our democracy and rolling back a core principle of accountability in public decision-making. This represents one of the most extraordinary elements of the Bill. The Progressive Democrats campaigned for a mandate to keep the Government honest, clean, and, I presume, open. It is extraordinary to observe the manner in which the Progressive Democrats are rolling back a fundamental principle of openness after less than a year in office.

At its heart, the Freedom of Information Act 1997 was about ensuring accountability to the public for what is done in its name. It is a fundamental abuse of power to in any way dilute the principle of accountability that is so strongly established in the Freedom of Information Act. One can only assume that the primary objective of the Government, as evidenced by this Bill, is to roll back the principle of accountability. What does this say about a Government that does not want accountability, openness in how it reaches its decisions or the ability of the public to know, through the media or public representatives, how it makes decisions? Freedom of information has become an embarrassment to a Government that lied to the people during the election and continues to do so. It signals a Government that is determined to control information by spin and leaks. It is the mark of a Government that wants the people to know only what it wants them to know; it is not the mark of a democratic government.

This Bill represents an early landmark in the lifetime of the Government. It is symbolic of an arrogant Government that has allowed power to go to its head and thinks it can ride roughshod over the fundamental and basic rights of the citizens who elected it. I hope the day will soon come when the Government will rue bringing forward this legislation.

The public realises what is happening. It realises it has one of the most right wing and arrogant Governments this country has ever seen. It is also one of the most contemptuous in terms of how it treats not only the Houses of the Oireachtas but also the public. This is personified in the way the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, who have a duty to be in the House today, have acted in a high-handed and contemptuous manner and gone to watch horse racing in the adjoining state. What could be more insulting to this House and the people than to have two Ministers, duly elected and appointed, act in such a cavalier and contemptuous way towards the public interest and the public good?

The public interest is not at the heart of what the Government does. Defining and upholding the public interest were at the heart of the 1997 legislation. At the time it was a radical inclusion to provide for a public interest override in the legislation. The secrecy of decisions by State agencies and the institutions of State and the public's right to know were guaranteed by what was called "the public interest". That created a fundamental principle in the statute which is being diluted and undermined by this amending legislation.

That is the reason we oppose the section. The vast majority of sections in the Bill will be opposed today. This is not a freedom of information Bill but a freedom from information Bill. It is indicative of a Government which wishes to wrap itself in a blanket of secrecy and prevent the public, through the media and public representatives, from knowing how it makes decisions. The Government is obsessed with controlling information on how it makes its decisions. It wants to make them behind closed doors and does not want anybody to know how they were made. It wants to present them through its 81 spin doctors in a controlled, leaked fashion and in such a way that it can determine public reaction and opinion. In that regard, it is wrong.

As we said on Second Stage, it is our objective to oppose the Bill section by section and the amendments brought before us.

With due respect to my esteemed fellow Senator from County Tipperary, I hope it will be possible to have a reasoned debate on the Bill. Second Stage has concluded. The purpose of Committee Stage is to see if there are ways of improving the Bill—

I know what happens on Committee Stage. As it is my sixth year in this House, I do not need to be told about Committee Stage. I am speaking to the question.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Mansergh, without interruption.

I wish to develop my argument about the nonsensicalness, in parliamentary terms, of this argument. The principle of the Bill, for better or worse, has been—

For worse.

—voted on by the House. This debate, therefore, is about improving the Bill. This section is purely a reference to the Act which it is amending. It makes no sense to oppose or amend something that simply refers to what the Bill is about. I ask the Senator to consider withdrawing her opposition. One needs to be a little selective in one's opposition.

I had not intended to speak but was provoked by the comments of Senator Mansergh who is a new boy in the House.

So is the Senator.

No, I was here five years ago.

My elevation then was a good deal easier than my election this time. Senator O'Meara's points are valid. The definition section of a Bill must describe the intention of the legislation. If the Government had described it as the Freedom of Information Act 1997, as filleted by the amendment now before the House, there would have been more honesty in the section. There is no accurate definition in the section concerning the intentions of the Government. The Senator's argument has merit and I would be interested to hear the Minister of State's views on this point.

We have a serious job. Despite the fact that this side of the House has been resolute in its opposition to the procedures employed by the Government, we intend to take this matter seriously and go through the legislation line by line.

That requires honesty in what is included in the definition section. Section 1 of the Bill before us is incorrect in terms of the definition.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, and wish him well in dealing with Committee Stage of this Bill.

In fairness, I am sure he would prefer to be somewhere else. He has been unfairly dumped with an impossible job.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

The Minister of State has long experience in both Houses.

I do not question his experience. I hold him in high regard.

He is a gentleman also.

I am sure the Minister of State is delighted. I have previous experience of bringing Bills through the House. In fact, I brought the Companies Bill through both Houses when Minister of State. Therefore, I have no doubt that the Minister of State is well equipped to deal with Committee Stage of this Bill.

It is unusual to oppose the description of a Bill. The Opposition, even according to the newspapers last weekend, is grasping at straws with this Bill.

We have not started yet.

Indeed. The Opposition is trying to undermine the Government. This Bill is an amendment to the principal Act, not the removal of the Act. It consists of appropriate amendments which have been brought forward by the Government on the recommendation of an independent committee representing the Departments which made certain suggestions. Everybody agrees that the Act must be amended, particularly with regard to Cabinet information. Five years is far too short. Many matters would not even be finalised in that time. From the point of view of the business of the State and its confidentiality, it is vital that information not be released within the five year period and that the period be extended to ten years. Everybody agrees with this.

The previous Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government implemented the Freedom of Information Act.

It did not have a choice.

It funded and promoted the Act. It has been in office since 1997 and embraced the Act.

Fianna Fáil actually stated it did not go far enough.

Fine, but we worked it well.

Riddle that with what it is doing now.

The Government deserves tremendous credit because it extended the remit of the Act to health boards and local authorities. It continued to work on it to ensure more areas of administration came within its remit. That is a fact.

It was the same Administration which provided the necessary funding for the Act. However, I doubt that any Member would accept that a request from one individual should cost over €100,000 to carry out the required research. It cost €127,000 to deal with one request from an individual under the Act. That is an abuse of the legislation. Furthermore, the Minister has not so indicated and, contrary to some media reports, the level of fees has not been decided upon. However, such provision was made in the original Bill. It will be a matter for the Government and the Minister to decide on the implementation of this section. Before the ball has even been thrown in for the start of the game, however, the Labour Party wants to pull the plug.

(Interruptions).

It does not even want freedom of speech on the Bill. It does not want us to explain the details on Committee Stage, on which we are prepared to argue about every Opposition amendment. Senator O'Meara is trying to pull the plug on the Bill completely. That is the case. She is trying to remove the Bill from the House.

That is what should happen; the plug should be pulled on it.

We intend to fight every line of the Bill through the House. The Government is standing foursquare behind the Bill, which will be passed by the Oireachtas.

I would like to make a point for the benefit of Senator Brian Hayes. Even if he believes that the description of the legislation is a misnomer, we are referring to the previous Act and, therefore, it does not make any sense because we are confusing what we are doing now with what was done then. This section refers to the 1997 Act, so it does not make any sense to oppose it. I would much prefer us to spend our time arguing over matters of substance rather than form.

Section 1 defines the term "the Principal Act" as meaning the Freedom of Information Act 1997. The term "the Principal Act" in the explanatory memorandum has the same meaning. This section is a standard provision in all legislation and I cannot accept the Senator's amendment.

Senator O'Meara should withdraw the accusation that we lied prior to the previous election. Indeed, when her own Leader's spin-doctor, Mr. Fergus Finlay, saw the Fianna Fáil manifesto he said it was a disgrace because it contained no promises.

I do not wish to embarrass the Minister of State, but has the appropriate Department received a copy of the Information Commissioner's report of the review of the Act? It would be helpful for us to know that.

It is not available, as yet.

We are commencing the Committee Stage debate on the Bill. Section 36 of the principal Act deals with the powers of the commissioner, one of which is to keep the operation of the Act under review. That is part of his functions. The commissioner has now prepared a review of the Act, which is to be – or may already have been – published. Section 36(7) makes it an offence for any person or body to hinder or obstruct the commissioner's functions. If rushing this Bill through the House does not undermine that aspect of the commissioner's functions, it certainly treats it with absolute contempt and disrespect.

All Senators who have spoken on the Bill acknowledged that certain changes should be made; that is not the issue. We are ready to deal with changes to the Bill, but the Information Commissioner has not made his input in a formal manner. He has, however, produced an annual report on how the legislation is working. It is possible for the Government to make a specious argument saying it was interested in what the commissioner said last year, but it has now decided to disregard his current review which is about to be published. It has not been taken into consideration in any way, shape or form by the Government side in preparing the proposed amendments. I believe that attitude is wrong at all levels. However, before developing that argument I would like to hear some satisfactory explanation as to why the Government considers this to be the correct way of doing business.

I would inform the Minister of State that the commissioner's report, The Application and Operation of Certain Provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 1997, is available and is quite riveting. As Senator O'Toole said, it is manifestly wrong in these circumstances to embark upon a debate on Committee Stage of a Bill which has such fundamental implications for people's right to access information. This debate should not proceed because the sponsoring Minister has not deemed it worthwhile to agree to a deferment of the Bill until next week, when the Cheltenham festival has concluded and when he could personally take us over the hurdles. In addition, the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, who took part of the Second Stage debate last week, is not here.

It is wrong that the Minister or Minister of State responsible for the legislation are not present. I have great respect for the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, but the Bill does not come within his Department's remit. Given the fundamental importance of the legislation, the Minister of Finance should have come before the House. If he could not be here, his Minister of State should have attended the House.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The House has ordered its business for today and that is not the function of the Minister of State who is present.

Is our freedom of expression being threatened now?

I fully appreciate that, but neither the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, nor a Senator representing the Progressive Democrats is present. Does that mean they are trying to back away from the implications of this Bill and, to use a Cheltenham expression, ride two horses simultaneously?

They are somewhat embarrassed.

The House should adjourn because it is wrong to proceed in these circumstances. The Information Commissioner was not granted the courtesy of having an input by the so-called expert committee. I have scanned quickly through the Information Commissioner's report and it is extremely important. It provides a good overview of the legislation along with a critical analysis of its sections, including the one dealing with Government committees. We should not proceed with the debate until we have had an opportunity to digest the commissioner's report.

I agree with one of the points made by Senator O'Meara concerning the Title to the Bill. I know we are talking about the principal Act, but it is a misnomer to call it the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. It should be entitled the "Restriction on the Freedom of Information" Bill because it drives a coach and four through the 1997 Act, setting many of its provisions at nought.

The Minister of State is aware that the commissioner's report has now been published. We should not proceed with the debate until we have had an opportunity to study the report, which provides a critical analysis of core sections of the Bill. The commissioner has presented his report, both as a former civil servant and as the citizens' referee, on how the original Act is being dealt with. The report also has implications for this Bill which seeks to trample on people's rights.

The House should adjourn until after 8 p.m. to deal further with this matter. It would be manifestly wrong to proceed without first studying the commissioner's report.

I welcome the Minister of State, although I do so in a muted fashion. I know him of old; he is a thoroughly decent, upright and competent man, but it is a disgrace that he should be placed in this position. Perhaps the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has an input, but I cannot imagine what it might be. It is most invidious to place the Minister of State in this position. When Senator O'Toole asked a question, the advisers had to come into play. That is ridiculous. When we asked if the Department had access to this important document from the Information Commissioner, the Minister of State in charge did not have a clue. Of course he did not; I cannot expect him to because it is not his Department. It is an outrage that when we are discussing a serious matter such as this the senior Minister involved is off gallivanting after the nags. In the circumstances, the title of the Bill is a complete misnomer; it should be called The Glorious Uncertainty of the Turf Bill, the Turf Accountants Bill 2003 or something like that. It is a complete and utter farce.

Senator O'Toole made an extremely important and serious point. Within the terms of the Bill there is a statutory position allocated to the Information Commissioner. In the conduct of this debate the Minister of State is trampling upon and treating it with contempt.

We heard from Senator Mansergh that there were five distinguished independent persons and so on. They were senior civil servants for which they are entitled to respect but I would not regard them as totally independent. The Information Commissioner is of at least comparable rank within the Civil Service. Therefore, he certainly knows what he is talking about, yet we are having this debate in the absence of his report. When somebody raised a query about it, my colleague, Senator Mansergh, said that he had done this. He may have but the person in charge of the debate in this House on behalf of the Government does not know anything about it. We have not had access to it. We do not know anything about it and do not believe it has been published. It is a little too glib to say he has done it; he has produced one report but we do not have the one for the current year, the one being talked about. If this is the way in which the Government treats information in terms of the Seanad debate, the people have considerable need to be worried.

In terms of the conduct of the debate, there may be some examples of that very Hibernian phenomenon, the digression, in the contributions and perhaps the more academically tinged on the other side may wonder at this—

All the digressions are coming from the Senator.

—but if they had been longer in Parliament, they would recognised that this is one of the ways in which Members on the other side hit back at a corrupt Government.

Is this the Minister of State's reward for having so intelligently and sensitively brought through this House the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Bill at very short notice? Did he draw the short straw or did the Government decide, on the basis that he got through that one so well, that it would put him in the firing line once again? I gather on that occasion he had about a quarter of an hour's notice to review the brief on which he was complimented both inside and outside the House on how well he did. Is it his reward that he must face our wrath?

It is even more magnified when we discover that the report on the application and operation of certain provisions of the Freedom of Information Act is in our pigeonholes. I can read quite quickly. Why can we not take Senator Higgins's suggestion to heart, that we should adjourn until 8 p.m. and then resume? From even a glance at the general overview contained in the report, I note there is a large and important section dealing with section 19. There are also references to section 20.

Can we, please, stick to section 1?

We should abandon this discussion in order to allow Members to have at least the advantage of having read the report. I have complained repeatedly in this House that we seem to think that when we get reports, we have done something but that is not the case. They must be read and we have to use the information contained in them. I have never seen more reports from Departments than in the past five years, particularly the Department of Health and Children. However, it is quite difficult to get information from the Department of Finance. If we are going to the trouble and expense of producing and paying for reports – the taxpayer is doing so – it is asinine to proceed without us having a chance to look at them and ascertain what may be of value to us.

Reference was made by one of the Senators opposite to this being a farce, it is certainly a farce to enter into this type of discussion in relation to section 1, the agreeing of which, regardless of whether one likes what is contained in the Bill, should be a formality. The report being referred to is utterly irrelevant to the section.

It is not.

If we spend this amount of time discussing the section, we will certainly have plenty of time to absorb the report before we reach the sections to which it refers. It is worth pointing out that the Information Commissioner is a public servant which means he is a servant of the Houses of the Oireachtas and subject to the legislation that we choose to pass. He has issued four reports on the operation of this legislation. I was looking at the fourth only last night. People are considerably oversimplifying the question of consultation. From my experience as a public servant, I am aware that one often gets to hear of something relevant and one then makes an inquiry. When the Information Commissioner made an inquiry in this instance, specific observations were invited. In effect, therefore, he was consulted despite suggestions to the contrary.

As I said on the Order of Business, while it would have been ideal if we could have had the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State at the Department of Finance present, I welcome the Minister of State. We should not lose sight of the fact that the Government is an entity with collective responsibilities which bind Ministers and Ministers of State. The Minister of State is competent to give a reply on behalf of the Government and take in the points made in the course of the debate.

I utterly reject the statement made by Senator Norris about a corrupt Government. That sort of statement should not be made when there is no evidence whatsoever to that effect. In the past five years there was not even a suggestion of corruption in relation to any single act of Government. There is no concrete suggestion in relation the present Government either. It does not raise the standard of debate to throw around tabloid type accusations of that kind in this House.

As I am a tabloid journalist, it is in my nature.

Acting Chairman

I call Senator O'Meara. I ask her to try in so far as possible to avoid a Second Stage debate.

Acting Chairman

Because it would not be in keeping with the order of the House.

I have never in the relatively short time I have been a Member of this House encountered a situation where information of such critical importance to the discussion of a Bill before the House was not available. I had to run downstairs to get the report in the middle of a debate on an amendment. It is outrageous that I had to draft amendments without the information which has now come before the House. That is unacceptable and intolerable. We should adjourn the debate in order to give us time to read the report of the Information Commissioner. Clearly, the Government has not read it. From a glance at the first few pages, we will have quite a discussion on the amendments when we reach them.

I have been remiss in not welcoming the Minister of State. I apologise and hope he will take my apology in the spirit in which it is intended. I have not engaged with him at this level previously. I put it to the Minister of State and Government Senators that it is unacceptable that we do not have time to read such an important commentary on a Bill we are discussing, nor can we use it to shape the amendments before the House.

The Acting Chairman, as a neutral observer, should listen to the points that have been made. Any independent observer would view this as an outrageous and intolerable situation. The fact that the Government will not listen to us on this issue is indicative of how determined it is to put through this draconian amendment to the freedom of information legislation.

How much time was given to consideration of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003? For how long was it discussed? When did the Cabinet decide to amend the legislation and how long did the Bill take to go through Cabinet? How long did it take to come back from the parliamentary counsel? When did the Government decide to amend the legislation?

Acting Chairman

I remind Senators that we are dealing with section 1.

The Chair and I have served together here for some time. I am speaking at length on section 1 because I am trying to prevent a travesty of the democratic process, which is what is taking place. The Chair has plenty of common sense and I appeal to him to recognise that what we are doing is wrong. The most central person in this matter, the person who is effectively the fulcrum of this legislation, has produced a report which deals with and passes judgment on every amendment – he says of one that it would have the effect of pulling back on information which is accessible at present. At another stage in the report he states: " . had the Secretary General been in a position to certify that the records related to an ongoing deliberative process I would not have been in a position to review the matter." He shows time and again that there are issues involved here which concern him greatly.

I can go through every one of these issues – I am sure we will do so – but I am trying to convince the Chair that in this document—

Acting Chairman

The Senator knows well that the Chair cannot comment on the contents of a document.

Nor am I asking the Chair to do so. I am discussing the process.

The Government took a decision last week to go ahead with business when it did not have this information available to it. It still does not have that information, as the Minister of State confirmed to me 20 minutes ago. We now have the odd situation where everyone on this side of the House has access to information which is vital to the process we are undertaking but it is not available to the Minister or his advisers. For God's sake, this is an utter joke.

We can get into the schoolboy debate of whether we discuss this under section 1 or section 2 if that is important to people but the same issues will arise. It is safer to do correctly but in order to do things correctly, it is not accurate to describe the Information Commissioner as a public servant. He was a civil servant of the Government when he worked in the Department of Finance and he has now moved across to another job – he is now a civil servant of the State. If Members take the trouble to look at sections 11 and 12 of the rag we are dealing with today they will see that distinction is made clear for the purposes of covering people in their meetings with the Government. It is not fair to refer to the Information Commissioner as being in some way lesser in making—

I said under legislation passed by the Oireachtas.

Acting Chairman

We are dealing with Committee Stage. Everyone will have a chance.

I am responding to an issue.

The Information Commissioner has experience of both levels: at Secretary General level in a Department of State when he was a civil servant of the Government and now as a civil servant of the State. That distinction is not often made but it is a distinction and we should make it clear he has been both. The legislation also refers to those two groups of people.

The Information Commissioner has courageously produced this document, presumably to be helpful to all who are dealing with the Bill. Is the Chair telling me it is correct to go ahead? I am not asking the Chair to comment on the report and I feel safe asking the question as the Chair does not have to know the contents of the report. However, he does know it exists—

Acting Chairman

Nor should I answer the question.

There is a convention in the House that when a Member produces new documentary evidence he should present it to the Chair. I have not seen it done in the past 15 years but that is the convention.

Acting Chairman

That is a different matter from asking a question.

I am happy to present it to the Chair to ensure he has access to the information the rest of us have. How would one explain this to someone in one's local pub tonight? How would one explain this in one's sitting room? A visitor in the gallery would say: "What is this? The person who operates the Act has given his view but we are deciding to ignore it?" By going ahead we are deciding to ignore that view.

That is why I oppose section 1. It is outrageous that we should continue, but to make a greater travesty on this we must now deal with the operation of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Service, which will meet the Government's chief operators of the Bill on Thursday. We set up the committee system to advise the Houses but here we have decided to ignore the system and to forget the committees. Our decision means they will have no input. We now have the two most important pieces of information but we are ruling the first piece out completely and we are half way to doing so with the second. I hold in high regard the people meeting the committee on Thursday and they have already advised the Government on its policy, but we cannot judge how they arrived at their decisions until we hear from them.

How would the Minister of State or the Chair explain this to Pat Kenny tomorrow so that ordinary people would understand it? The most important person is being ignored. Is it any wonder people are cynical about politics? Is anyone going to talk to anyone else about this nonsense or do we have to go on? Will someone tell me my interpretation is wrong? Will someone tell me I am not mad in what I am reading but that this makes some rational sense and is an appropriate way of doing business? Will someone tell me this is good parliamentary practice and that it is a legislative process which is safe and sound and reflects those we represent?

How can we continue on this basis? It is utterly wrong. Over the weekend I tried to come to a conclusion on why this is being rushed through, but I cannot find a rational explanation. In another life I used to say that if things looked wrong they probably were wrong. This may just be a total cock-up, with none of these matters being anticipated, but I ask the Chair to intervene. Will he indicate whether it is possible to stop what we are doing here?

Acting Chairman

Business has been ordered for the day and there have been two divisions on the matter. The House has decided on its business. Regarding the other questions, the Chair simply could not begin to answer them as it would be inappropriate to do so.

On a point of order, there is nothing to stop the House making another order. We have had supplementary orders in the Dáil and the Seanad and we have also amended Standing Orders. To do so now would be in everyone's interests as this is a unique situation. I asked the Minister of State if the report was available and he said no; he was advised by the public servants—

Acting Chairman

The Senator has gone well beyond a point of order.

They now have the report and are mulling over it. It is an injustice to the Minister of State, who is at a considerable disadvantage.

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order.

I am just making the point—

Acting Chairman

The Senator began with a point of order. He can make the point in the course of the debate in sequence with everybody else.

I ask the Acting Chairman whether it is possible for us to make a supplementary order amending the orders so that we would have a sos to digest and absorb the contents of this vital report to inform our deliberations.

Acting Chairman

The Senator may bring forward a supplementary order if he so wishes. The House can then decide what to do about the matter as it will be out of my hands.

In light of the Acting Chairman's ruling, I now propose a supplementary order, "That No. 2—

Acting Chairman

The Senator must give notice and produce the supplementary order. We cannot take it ad hoc from the floor.

Will the Acting Chairman accept it if I write it down?

Acting Chairman

I will consider it through the Clerk.

I propose a supplementary order, which the Acting Chairman will receive shortly, "That No. 2 be suspended until 8 p.m. this evening."

Acting Chairman

We cannot repeat the question we asked earlier. The proposal is a direct negative of a question on which the House has already adjudicated.

I propose that the House stand suspended until 8 p.m.

On a point of order, the fact that the position has changed so fundamentally would appear to have also fundamentally changed the position with regard to the Order of Business.

Acting Chairman

I have given an instruction to the House to that effect. It is a matter for the House. I have given Senators considerable latitude in the interests of trying to progress the debate. Section 1, with which we are meant to be dealing, contains one line of text.

I have only one question. The Acting Chairman, as a distinguished Member of the House, will know that Committee Stage affords Members on both sides an opportunity to put straight questions and receive straight answers.

Acting Chairman

They must be relevant to the section.

Correct. My question will take about ten seconds. Will the Minister of State give me a straight answer to a straight question? In the background text to the report written by the Information Commissioner and to which Senators have referred, it is stated that appendix 2 was given to the Department, which the Minister of State represents, on 5 February after he became aware that the Bill to amend the Act was due to be published in the current Dáil session. Why did the Department not make the appendix known to Members of the House, particularly in light of the obligations arising from the constitutional provision that the Houses of the Oireachtas are vested with the sole and exclusive power of making laws for the State? Why did the Department not make the appendix available to Senators before this debate?

The Government's task is to govern. We are not controlled by the media or the NUJ. This is the difference. Senator O'Toole is more concerned about what Pat Kenny will be worried about tomorrow than about the rights of the House.

I do not understand how the Senator arrived at that conclusion. My concern was what anybody would—

The Senator is totally media-oriented and said so himself.

I am not prepared to listen to this rubbish. I will not have words put in my mouth or interpretations made of my thoughts.

The Senator wants to know how Pat Kenny—

The Senator should withdraw his remarks.

I will not withdraw anything.

If the Senator has no thoughts of his own, it would be a good idea for him to sit down rather than trying to interpret what I have to say.

It is perfectly in order to—

Acting Chairman

Senator O'Toole will have an opportunity to contradict the point the Senator makes.

As I recall, Senator O'Toole asked the Acting Chairman how he would explain this matter to Pat Kenny tomorrow. We are not concerned about the "Today with Pat Kenny" programme, either tomorrow or any other day; we are concerned—

This is a complex issue. I am concerned about the 500,000 people who listen to the show. Did the Senator not figure that out? He should try to think the matter through next time.

The reason we are on this side of the House is that we govern.

Acting Chairman

I thank Senators for asking the questions the Chair cannot answer.

Our actions are not dictated by the media or the NUJ.

Correct, the Government dictates.

Pol Pot could have said the same.

This is a Government Bill, which has been considered by the Government. If Senator O'Meara wants to get information on the details of its considerations, she can make a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

That is correct.

As far as I am aware, Senator O'Meara has published the Freedom of Information (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. Now she is arguing that we cannot discuss the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill in the House. The debate on section 1 has been ridiculous so far. I have never heard the Title to a Bill being discussed in either House. What does the Opposition fear?

I fear a travesty of democracy.

Let us debate the legislation, line by line and section by section. It has been fully considered by the Government.

I resent the comments made about the Minister of State consulting his officials. He is perfectly entitled to do so, as I was in the past when I had excellent officials. We do not want a Minister coming into the House and going through a Bill in an arrogant manner. Every Minister requires the support and assistance of experts in the field to guide him or her while a Bill is passing through either House of the Oireachtas. This has always been the procedure and there is nothing different with regard to this Bill.

I ask the Chair to put the section to the House. It should be part of the Bill. We should proceed to debate the legislation and if others outside the House have observations to make, they can be considered during the course of Committee Stage which will continue until Thursday. Surely Senators are capable of reading the recommendations made by the Information Commissioner? They will be duly taken into consideration by the Government as the Bill goes through the House and the Dáil.

Having read most of the newspapers at the weekend, I know the tune to which Senator O'Toole is dancing. He is appeasing the NUJ and journalists.

Acting Chairman

Effectively, we are having a Second Stage debate. I have given considerable latitude in the hope of making some progress and in order that we will not repeat these arguments at a later stage. I ask Senators to be mindful that this is Committee Stage debate and we are dealing with section 1.

I cannot understand the reason Senator Mansergh appeared to believe that a Member on this side was querying the competence of the Minister of State. I have congratulated the Minister of State on his intelligence already in bringing through a previous Bill. We do not harbour personal resentment towards him. He is a competent Minister of State. The question, however, is whether the Bill was purposely sent into this House because the Government was ashamed to introduce it in the other House and has now left the field for other pastures?

At the beginning of the report, which has just come into our hands, the Information Commissioner states:

I am conscious that many commentators would like me to state my views on the proposed legislation. I do not intend to do so. It would be entirely inappropriate for me to engage in public debate on the merits or demerits of the Bill. The Constitution provides that the sole and exclusive power of making law for the State is vested in the Oireachtas and it is the role of the Information Commissioner in relation to the Freedom of Information Act to implement the legislation passed by the Oireachtas in an independent and impartial manner.

He then states:

Given the importance of the proposed changes to the Act, however, and having regard to my statutory reporting relationships with the Houses of the Oireachtas, I have decided to publish a commentary under section 39 of the Act. Section 39 provides that:

The Commissioner may prepare and publish commentaries on the practical application and operation of the provisions, or any particular provisions, of this Act, including commentaries based on the experience of holders of the office of Commissioner in relation to reviews, and decisions following reviews, of such holders under section 34.

How could anyone on the Government benches want to proceed with this legislation when the person of most importance in terms of considering the workings of the Act has provided us with this information?

I have made only one freedom of information request, which was on an issue of importance to me and all the young women of this country. I will explain the answer I received and the reason I am so concerned about what is now happening in terms of what could be described as the Freedom from Information (Amendment) Bill. There is a degree of concern about home births here. Statistics are not kept as to the infant mortality rate, which, it has been suggested, is higher than in hospital births. Many women are transferred to hospital very late in labour and perhaps because of difficulties during labour—

Acting Chairman

The Senator is going way off the debate.

I do not think so, and I will quickly explain the reason. This is a very important issue.

Acting Chairman

The relevance to section 1 is extremely tenuous.

I will conclude quickly. We wanted to get information because those figures could be included under deaths in hospital. I could not get them from the Department of Health and Children, so I put in a request under the Freedom of Information Act and it was refused on a technicality. It said I could try the Central Statistics Office but while the CSO would know the place of death of the person, it would not know the place of birth. That was not much help.

I will explain the reason this is so important. An area in the Bill now before the House is heavily criticised in this report, which I have to speed read. Under the section in the report on section 22(1)(a) and (b), if one asks a question about one body and the answer could impinge on the activities of another body, it will not give an answer. It is even worse than the position previously when the Department of Health and Children said it would not give me information of such importance. What is more important, apart from the maternal mortality figures, than the perinatal mortality figures? They are the essence of the health service, yet I could not get those figures. We now have no hope of getting them because it will say it impinges on the workings of some hospital or something like that.

This report states that the sections are to be amended by providing a revised wording for paragraphs (a) and (b) to the effect that the principal Act will extend the protection available to any public body, not just the public body that is the subject of the request. That is the reason we should not go on—

Is Senator Dardis not ashamed of being in the Chair? You have every right to be in this disgraceful debate.

Acting Chairman

Senator Norris should not push his luck.

This is a report of major importance, through which I am trying to speed read. I am giving you an example of where I have already had difficulty with the original Bill. The Department said I could appeal the decision, but an appeal would take six weeks to three months. That is one example which I could pick out immediately.

There are parts of the original Bill which are being amended by this Bill of which the commissioner is not critical but on which he gives a totally different answer from what is suggested either in the Bill or in the explanatory memorandum. I believe we are behaving in a farcical manner, and that is not the wrong word to use.

I regard what Senator Henry had to say as extremely germane to the Bill and she made an impressive and practical case. There is no doubt this is the sort of reality in which people operate and if somebody in her responsible position finds it impossible to get the kind of information on which proper decisions about the health of the country will be made as a result of the operation of this Bill, it is a complete and utter disgrace. It is appropriate to say that because Senator Henry is arguing, as are the rest of us, for a cessation of this farcical debate so that we will be placed in possession of the information necessary to construct a proper debate in this Parliament. Every word she said was completely and utterly relevant.

Acting Chairman

To the Bill, not the section.

To the position on the Bill. What we argued at the outset was that this was a complete and utter nonsense.

I was challenged by Senator Mansergh about my use of the word "corruption", and it appeared he was gathering himself up to see if I would withdraw it. I will not withdraw it and I will tell him what I mean by "corruption". Corruption occurs where healthy tissue deteriorates as a result of injury, abuse or disease. That is what is happening in the democratic process. It is corrupt. I found his contribution very engaging because he let slip the mask when he said there had not been corruption for five years. Was he suggesting there was masses of it in the five years preceding that terminal point?

We were out of government then.

There is no question that the democratic process is being corrupted because a Bill is being force-fed through the Oireachtas, the people responsible are out of the country, mitching like guilty schoolboys, we do not have information from the Information Commissioner—

We got it in the past five minutes.

We had it before that, if the Senator had given us a chance to talk.

The Government had it.

The Minister of State did not know that when I asked.

The Senator asked a different question.

It was not a different question. The Minister of State might have thought it was a different question, but they said they did not have it.

There is a very good piece about this in The Irish Times today in which the word “corruption” figures prominently in an analysis of the Bill by Fintan O'Toole. It states, “A corrosive public cynicism is eating away at the bonds between State and citizen.” Is that not a form of corruption? I am not talking about financial corruption; I am talking about corruption of the body politic by the inappropriate use of muscle by this Government. It further states:

The response of the Government? Go into hiding. Neuter the Freedom of Information Act. Batten down the hatches. It is a perfectly rational strategy. Halfway through a 10-year stretch in power, the Government has no ambition beyond survival. It is not interested in engaging with the public. It is interested in hanging on until those who voted for Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats last May will have forgotten their sense of betrayal and those who didn't will have sunk into weary apathy.

He goes on to talk about the confidence that they can get away with it. I will not put the whole article on the record because that would be rather tedious, although I might return to it in the later hours of the evening when I imagine we will still be here. A distinguished journalist like Mr. O'Toole—

Is the Senator quoting Fergus Finlay?

—is prepared consistently to employ the image of corruption in this leading article and that is exactly what it is. I make no apologies for putting on the record of this House that this is corrupt Government, by which I do not mean that there is money involved.

According to The Irish Times.

There is a practice whereby the welfare of the body politic is brought into disrepute.

Acting Chairman

For the information of Senator Brian Hayes, any proposal to change the Order of Business made by the House and taken today can only be made by the Leader of the House.

To be helpful, this side of the House put forward a suggestion as an opportunity for the Minister of State and his officials to consider in detail the substantial report that has now been issued by the Information Commissioner. That proposal on our part was meant to be helpful and I ask the Leader, as she has now entered the House, to consider the proposal in light of the report circulated to all Members only in the past half hour.

Acting Chairman

All I can do is repeat the ruling that any proposal to change the Order of Business can only be made by the Leader of the House.

I was following the debate and, if I may say so, the lack of progress on it. We were due to have a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and I propose, in answer to the query put forward, that we suspend now until 6.30 p.m.

Well done.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

For the reading of the report.

I know the Minister is anxious to reply to the question put on this side. Would it be helpful to get his reply?

Acting Chairman

We have agreed to the suspension. We cannot have any more debate.

I thank the Leader for her intervention.

I thank the Leader also.

Sitting suspended at 5.10 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

We had a long discussion this afternoon. In the meantime we have had the opportunity to read the report of the Information Commissioner. What undermines our work today is that part of his report, appendix 2, contains a long list of amendments to the Act. No Members of this House saw these until this afternoon.

In order to validate the process of legislation, I intend tabling each of these as an amendment to be considered on Committee Stage. Four or five of them have already been tabled in my name and that of Senator Henry. In deference to the debate and to the safety of the legislation, it is crucial that we discuss these proposals.

While I am not saying necessarily that the Information Commissioner is right in everything he is suggesting, nobody can argue that his recommendations should not at least be considered, discussed and disposed of by this House. Therefore I have sent these to you, a Chathaoirligh, and I have indicated to the Clerk that there will be more to follow. While I recognise that Standing Orders require amendments to be in by a certain time, I also recognise that you may allow amendments at your discretion and sometimes that has to be with very little notice.

I cannot justify to Members of this House ignoring these recommendations. Having looked at several recommendations affecting both the principal Act and the Bill, very few have been included by the Government. Of the first 15 recommendations I read, three are included, one is perhaps included and 11 have been ignored.

Members of the House should have a debate on the proposals of the Information Commissioner. More importantly, the report contains his views on the amendments which we have not had time to include in this debate. The most critical part of what he has to say is as follows:

I note that in proposing this change, the high-level group has taken a different view. It is clear that my view of the intention of the FOI Act as originally framed differed from that of the high-level group.

I will not impose on you now, a Chathaoirligh. I will come back to those issues.

I am making these points to validate my argument that it is wrong to rush this through at this stage. All the amendments I am now putting to you, Sir, should be considered as part of the Committee Stage with a proper discussion. The Government side may say why something should not be done and we can come to an agreed position. Crucially we should have the Information Commissioner's views on each one of them. While that is not to say he is right and other people are wrong, I ask you, a Chathaoirligh, to include the amendments in the names of Senator Henry and me.

On Committee Stage—

On a point of order, under Standing Order 63 of the House I propose a motion that we report progress on this Bill in order to allow substantial amendments based on the report of the Information Commissioner to be laid before the House later this evening.

I am not accepting that.

I second the motion.

I am not accepting that motion. As Committee Stage is in progress I am not prepared to accept those amendments on Committee Stage. Senators may raise the points in question during the debate on the Bill and amendments can then be tabled on Report Stage.

It is critical that we be allowed to formulate amendments on Committee Stage—

Committee Stage is in progress.

—which we have been unable to do.

I have ruled.

I am moving a motion under Standing Order 63—

I am not accepting the motion.

—according to the procedure of the House.

I have ruled on that.

The spirit of the Standing Orders of this House of the Oireachtas is that on Committee Stage we should be allowed debate substantial amendments. I am moving a motion under Standing Order 63 to that effect.

I am not accepting the motion under Standing Order 63.

I would like to inform Senator Brian Hayes that the appendix to which he referred was published on the Internet.

Who published it?

The Information Commissioner. The commissioner's commentary gives a general overview of the main proposals in the Bill and a statement of his views on how decisions taken by him in the past would have been affected if the Government's proposed amendments had been operating at that time. The commentary is made under section 39 of the 1997 Act, which provides that the commissioner can prepare and publish commentaries on the practical operation of the provisions of the Act. On the first page of his commentary, the commissioner makes clear that he is not stating his view of the proposed legislation, as he says it would be entirely inappropriate for him to engage in public debate on the merits or demerits of the Bill.

The commissioner's document is quite long and complex and I am sure the House would agree it is not possible or appropriate for me to give a response to it at this early stage. After an initial examination it appears that many of the points he makes, particularly those in his general overview of the amendments to sections 19 and 20 of the 1997 Act, can be dealt with by preparing appropriate guidelines for Departments on how to operate the new amended Act. These guidelines are issued from time to time by the Department of Finance and have proved very effective in ensuring the implementation of the Act.

The commissioner's report will be studied by the Government. The commissioner has an important role to play in administering the Act and ensuring the procedures it lays down are properly implemented. His views clearly take account of his wide experience in the area.

The Government has already considered its proposed legislation carefully. The high level group was established by the Government to examine the working of the 1997 Act in some detail. The group considered the position, as it was required to do by the Government, taking account of reports and studies, including those issued by the commissioner, and drew up recommendations which formed the basis for the Government's own preparation of the legislation which is now before the Seanad. The Department of Finance met the commissioner's office and considered some technical amendments put forward by the commissioner, a number of which are incorporated in the Bill.

Did the Minister of State have an opportunity to study the commissioner's report during the suspension of the House? It would appear from his comments that he did not. He said he had a general overview but in appendix 2 of the report, the commissioner makes a detailed analysis of the Bill, line by line, including the Long Title, and gives a critique of every section. His comments were available to the Department of Finance on 3 February 2003. Did the Department reply?

I wish I had thought of making a freedom of information request to find out what it costs to run the Office of the Information Commissioner because we are getting very good value no matter what the cost. The amount of work that has gone into this report is incredible but we are to ignore it on Committee Stage.

I am worried that the Taoiseach does not understand what is in the Bill because he said in the other House that it will make no difference to individuals. The commissioner's report makes clear that changing the wording from "relate" to "contain" will make a huge difference to the amount of information an individual can obtain under the Freedom of Information Act. It is not just about collective responsibility at Cabinet level, as we have been told.

Bringing up the amendments that Senator O'Toole has tabled on Report Stage is not the same thing as bringing them up on Committee Stage.

The commissioner is not a Member of either House of the Oireachtas or of the Government. This is a Bill introduced by the Government to the Oireachtas. The commissioner stated clearly that it would be entirely inappropriate for him to engage in public debate on the merits or demerits of the Bill. He said that the Constitution provides that the sole and exclusive power to make laws for the State is vested in the Oireachtas and that it is the role of the Information Commissioner, in relation to the Freedom of Information Act, to implement the legislation passed by the Oireachtas in an independent and impartial manner.

Will the Senator continue reading? Will he read the next sentence?

Given the importance of the proposed changes to the Act, and having regard to statutory reporting functions contained in sections 39 and 40, it would be totally inappropriate to incorporate recommendations by an independent commissioner in the Bill before the House.

That is the Senator's view, it is not what the commissioner says.

Not even the Minister of State is saying that. He is prepared to accept some of the recommendations.

Let the debate continue. This is grossly unfair.

Why do we bother coming here at all?

It is grossly unfair of the Labour Party to object to and filibuster this Bill. It opposes section 1 so that the Bill cannot be debated. That is totally undemocratic. We should vote on the section now so the debate can proceed.

I thank the Minister of State for his direct answer to the question I asked about what the Department of Finance did when it received the information from the commissioner. He says that the Information Commissioner put it on the Internet. That is useful. Why, therefore, was there no reference to this at any point in the speech by the Minister for Finance or the summation by the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon?

I may be jumping the gun and I do not want to be involved in a filibuster. It is regrettable that the time of the House is taken up in this way. We are digging ourselves into trenches when there could be easier ways of getting through the Bill.

I respect the position of the commissioner and take his point that he is not contributing to the legislative process. I was concerned about a section later in the Bill that deals with the extension of the definition of "Government" to take in all manner of people. That holes that section below the waterline before we even reach it. If we could agree that is the case, it would be unnecessary to fight our way through every other section until that one. The Minister said this could be effectively dealt with by way of departmental guidelines but that is not a good way to legislate.

I take up the point made by Senator Maurice Hayes because it is crucially important. The Minister referred to the possibility of using departmental guidelines. That completely misunderstands the nature of some of the comments and recommendations of the commissioner.

The commissioner says the very constitutional definition of Government is at stake, that doubt is being cast by the way it is being redefined in the Bill before us. He says some of the definitions could create serious legal and other problems in future and have the potential to result in costly litigation, possibly involving his office. These are not trivial matters that can simply be dealt with by regulation.

The Minister said that Government will consider the views of the commissioner as set out in the report produced today. That raises the obvious question as to why has the Government not already considered the views of the commissioner.

Senator Leyden is being disingenuous in his attitude towards the role of the commissioner. The role of the commissioner, and of the ombudsman before him, was always to get stuck into the business of Government. That is what such people do; they get involved in ensuring that the administration of Government is carried on in an appropriate way. The commissioner has taken it upon himself – correctly – to comment on the working of the Act as it exists and to make recommendations on how it could be improved. He rightly says he will not tell Government what to do but he does not stop much short of that. It is proper in the circumstances to take that upon himself and he has done so.

It is not possible for us to take into account, however, the experience of the one person who knows most about the operation of the Act when deciding on the Bill because his report arrived in our pigeon holes only half an hour before Committee Stage. I appreciate the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, is playing with a ball he would prefer to avoid but we should adjourn this debate until we have an opportunity to look at the report, consider it and give the Government an opportunity to consider if amendments are appropriate, even at this early stage.

I have the highest respect for the commissioner. I knew him personally in a previous incarnation. It is the role of the commissioner to advise on legislation and it is the role of the Government to decide.

Preferably after taking advice.

The commissioner has published four other reports and is involved in ongoing consultation, a two way process. From what I know of the way Government works, his views have been taken into account and incorporated. We are at the beginning of a legislative process that will last a few weeks and there will be plenty of opportunities for the Government and others to review the report. If anything has been missed it can be accounted for then.

If I understood Senator O'Meara correctly, she wants to incorporate many of the amendments. That would be totally inconsistent with the amendments the Labour Party has tabled that simply oppose sections. Opposition Senators need to decide whether they are simply opposing most clauses of this Bill on a blanket basis or adopting a more constructive approach.

My final point, in response to Senator Brian Hayes, is that when, for example, Mr. Dermot McCarthy sits opposite Senator Joe O'Toole and the other social partners, he, for that purpose is representing—

I do not consider that relevant.

As Senator Hayes went into the matter, I presume I am allowed to comment in reply. Similarly, a diplomatic representative may not be a member of the Government but still represents it. I am not sure the commissioner has got that point quite right.

I regret to correct Senator Mansergh a second time this afternoon. The reporting requirement of the Information Commissioner is not only to the Government but also to the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is crucially important to this issue. It is not co-government – that is not what I am suggesting. It is for precisely that reason that we are the ones who are required to take account of his report, whatever we do with it. Accordingly, I believe it is, at the very least, a discourtesy if we cannot deal with it.

I heard what the Cathaoirleach said about my amendments and, while I do not agree, I have to accept his ruling that they cannot be taken this evening. However, is the Chair also saying those amendments cannot be debated tomorrow on Committee Stage? Is he saying that none of my amendments can be taken at any time during Committee Stage of the Bill?

Yes, I said that.

I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, I cannot accept that. Time and again, on the Government and other sides of the House, when Committee Stage has continued for a couple of days, it has been quite in order and acceptable for amendments to be taken during the course of that process. I accept that, for practical reasons, it might be unfair to expect that what I submitted within the last half hour should be dealt with immediately. That is the reason I suggested we should take time to do it. However, it is not fair or acceptable that the amendments may not be dealt with on Committee Stage but only on Report Stage where we cannot have the detailed discussion this requires. I cannot accept that.

I have ruled on the matter. The Senator can, of course, raise the points in question in the debate on Committee Stage and the amendments can be taken on Report Stage.

I consider that grossly unfair, discriminatory and inconsistent.

I agree with Senator O'Toole. That is precisely the point I wish to make, having observed the debate. I understood the Chair to have ruled that Senator O'Toole's amendments could not be put down at this stage but they could be put down at Report Stage. Those amendments simply could not have arisen until the report was given to Senator O'Toole. The Cathaoirleach's position is that he is forbidding discussion on the amendments because on Report Stage a Member can only speak once. I believe that is a dangerous ruling to the operation of this House.

The ruling of the Chair cannot be questioned. In any event, Senators may speak on the subject matter of the amendments on Committee Stage and they can be taken on Report Stage. There will be ample opportunity to discuss them.

What happens if the Chair's ruling is wrong?

I have ruled on the matter. There cannot be any further debate on it. We must get back to discussing the Bill. The matter of the amendments has been adequately discussed.

I am just clarifying—

We will now proceed to conclude on section 1 of the Bill.

—that the effect of the Cathaoirleach's ruling is that discussion on these amendments, which could not have been placed before the House until the last hour or so, is being foreclosed. As a result, I believe the proposer speaks once and that is it. That is a real limitation on the democratic nature of this House and I believe it is utterly wrong.

As I already said, Senators can speak to the relevant points on the sections to which they are appropriate on Committee Stage, following which they can table their amendments for Report Stage.

That is not—

(Interruptions).

For the purpose of clarity on this, where new information has come to light in the course of a debate, while the Chair may not be obliged to take those Committee Stage amendments, account must surely be taken of the fact that we were handed this report only this afternoon, which would require Senators on this side of the House to frame new amendments.

Will the Chair also inform the House as to the actual deadline? I am not aware of any deadline according to Standing Orders concerning Committee Stage amendments. There is no reference to a deadline.

There is a reference that they should be submitted within a certain time – two days in advance. Anyhow, the purpose of Report Stage is to discuss any matters arising from the Committee Stage debate. We must now move on to section 1.

On this point, I wish to—

Is the Senator now speaking on section 1?

There is a very substantial difference between Report Stage and Committee Stage—

Senator Norris—

—in that the points involved are quite delicate and difficult and cannot be teased out.

The Senator may not ignore the Chair.

One cannot tease out these matters. All one can get is a straightforward, to and fro—

The Chair's ruling has been made on the matter.

—and it is definitely wrong. It is a corruption of democracy.

We must proceed. I will call on the Minister of State to reply.

On a point of clarification with regard to Standing Orders, may I ask for a specific declaration as to the time limit for submission of amendments for Committee Stage?

They have to be submitted two days beforehand.

With all due respect, a Chathaoirligh—

(Interruptions).

On a point of order, it is at the discretion of the Chair if it is less than two days. Is the Cathaoirleach telling the House that, for as long as he is in the Chair, the House will no longer accept amendments within two days of a debate?

I did not say that.

How many times have we accommodated the Government with amendments arising on the morning of a debate on a Bill? This is grossly unfair and I cannot accept it.

In relation to the amendments, I wish to refer briefly to what Senator Mansergh said. He said there would be several weeks of debate on the issues.

In both Houses.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. I thank Senator Mansergh for clarifying it. However, that shows an extraordinary contempt for this House. Can this House be treated like rubbish, with the real work being done in the Dáil? If those are the Senator's views—

I was referring to the legislative process as a whole.

We must proceed. Does the Minister of State wish to speak?

Is section 1 agreed to?

I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, there is no way we can go on at this stage. I want it clearly understood as to what we are now doing. The Information Commissioner, as I believe is required of him under section 39 of the principal Act, is reporting to the Houses of the Oireachtas with certain suggestions. We have tried to bring those suggestions before the House on Committee Stage tonight but, for whatever reason, a ruling is now making that impossible and the only way these amendments can be dealt with is on Report Stage.

As I have already said, the subject matter of the amendments can be raised in discussion at the appropriate point on Committee Stage.

Question put.

Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Feeney, Geraldine.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Hayes, Maurice.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Lydon, Don.

MacSharry, Marc.Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Rourke, Mary.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Kate.Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

Bannon, James.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Coonan, Noel.Feighan, Frank.Finucane, Michael.Hayes, Brian.Henry, Mary.

Higgins, Jim.McCarthy, Michael.McDowell, Derek.Norris, David.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Moylan and Minihan; Níl, Senators O'Toole and McDowell.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

A Chathaoirligh, can you explain your ruling to me? Does it apply to Bills in the future?

No. I ruled on today's Bill and we will discuss it now.

In other words, my amendments – from this side of the House – are being ruled out.

The Deputy's amendments are not being ruled out. Rather, amendments tabled during the course of a debate have been ruled out, whoever tabled them.

Is that to be the case in future?

It is the case always.

So we will not be asked again—

I will implement Standing Orders as I see fit.

The discretion is not being used in this direction.

We have dealt with that.

On Thursday afternoon, the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service will be taking consultations on this Bill. At the same time, we are supposed to be in here dealing with the amendments.

I have no control over the committees.

It is utterly wrong and unfair and it means that we are completely dismissing the operations of the Houses.

Senators

Hear, hear.

We cannot do business this way.

I have no control over the meeting of the finance committee.

We cannot do our business this way. It is contemptible that the whole process is being undermined.

We have to do our own business here.

On a point of order—

There will be no more points of order.

On a point of order, the Cathaoirleach is absolutely right – we have absolutely no control over the affairs of the finance committee. What we have, however, is control over the affairs of this House.

Senators

Hear, hear.

The House has taken a decision.

How can it be that we will be dealing with Report Stage of this legislation while the committee—

The House alone takes a decision. If a proposal is made, the House either agrees or disagrees.

It is totally wrong.

We are on section 2.

I understood the Cathaoirleach to say that he would not entertain points of order.

I will entertain points of order if they are points of order.

The Cathaoirleach will have to hear what they are before making the decision. I am glad he clarified that because it would be outrageous if he were not to take points of order. He did say there would be none.

So there will be, but the Cathaoirleach will have to listen to them and then rule that they are not points of order.

That is what I do. We will hear the Minister of State on section 2.

Section 2 is a standard interpretation section that defines the words "record", "local authority", "factual information" and "week". These definitions are necessary to clarify and improve the operation of the FOI Act and I cannot accept the Senator's amendments. For the record, the amendments to which Senator O'Toole is referring have been available on the Internet for the past three weeks, so he could have seen them there if he had looked into it.

This is the anonymous Internet.

Is it the official position of the Department that in order for us to know the business it is doing with us, we will have to chase around every Government website?

Senators

Hear, hear.

I will not take smart-ass answers from anybody. Either I get a clear, honest answer, or we will not do business. I would like the Minister to explain whether he thinks I should check around with all the people in here, not knowing that various things had happened, and then go checking around the whole world in case there is something the Department of Finance should have told me but did not, reckoning I could find it somewhere else.

This gives a clear indication of what the Government is trying to do – to pull a cloak of secrecy over things. How does it cover what the Department of Finance is doing? It shows it on a different website, hoping somebody will not see it. It is absolutely outrageous. If that is the view of the Department, it reflects very badly on it. The Department is incompetent to deal with this issue if this is the kind of reply we get. I do not accept that kind of outrageous rubbish. It is disrespectful and unacceptable. The Cathaoirleach should rule out the Minister of State's comment.

Senator McDowell.

I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but I will not accept that it is appropriate for a Government Department to say to me that information it should have given to me is available on somebody else's website. The Minister is taking advantage of his position and I want it clearly understood that it is not good enough. If this is accepted as a method of communication, we might as well all go home. This is a Government that talks about e-Government. Is this its attitude towards freedom of information – that it will ride roughshod over the rest of us, treat us like dirt and make smart-ass comments when we raise serious issues? It is unacceptable.

Does the Minister of State wish to comment? I gather he does not.

The Senator on section 2.

After that peroration, section 2 seems a bit of a comedown. Nevertheless, we will plough on. There are three different parts to this section, one of which at least is totally non-controversial: the definition of a week. It strikes me to wonder why it is necessary to redefine it at all, since it did not seem that there was any lack of clarity about it in the original Act.

There are substantive points to be made, however, about the other two parts of the section. It is interesting that the Minister, obviously working from his prepared brief, tells us that these are essentially technical points. The Information Commissioner is a little more helpful. He points out that the definition of "photocopy" is specifically intended to overturn a High Court decision, which found that under the existing Act a photocopy can be considered to be an original record and is therefore discoverable. This only matters in circumstances in which the original record was made before the implementation date of April 1998.

Why does the Government consider it necessary to bring in a specific provision to overturn this decision? It seems that the High Court decision, in these circumstances, was quite right. The Commissioner points out that there were two elements in that High Court decision. The other relates to the creation of records in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions that are retained in another office of the State. Why has the Government chosen to address one issue brought up by the commissioner and not the other?

The final part of section 2 appears to be innocent in so far as it simply redefines "factual information" to include, for example, statistical and econometric information. This is relevant because factual information in relation to a decision of Government is treated differently from memorandums for Government in that statistical or factual information can be released under the existing Act and, for that matter, under the new Act. The definition is broadened and to that extent it is a good thing. I wonder, though, what exactly it means.

The Bacon report, for example, contained a huge amount of statistical analysis and information and a certain amount of econometric and economic analysis, which clearly directly informed decisions made by two Government Departments and rubber-stamped very shortly thereafter by the Government. Does that fall under the definition of "factual information" as redefined in section 2 and therefore for the purposes of section 19?

The Labour Party opposes section 2, yet its members' arguments are based on the recommendations or suggestions of the Information Commissioner. Section 33 of the Act states that the commissioner shall be independent in the performance of his or her functions. That notwithstanding, some Opposition Senators have brought the independence of the Information Commissioner into question by adopting, without question, suggestions he has made under section 39 of the FOI Act, which itself states that the commissioner may prepare or publish commentaries on the practical application and on the operation of any particular provision of this Act.

No. It states, "The Commissioner may prepare and publish commentaries on the practical application and operation of the provisions, or any particular provisions, of this Act".

I have been involved with legislation for many years.

We are dealing with section 2.

This is important. The commissioner's role, provided for in section 39 and as stated by the commissioner himself, applies to the Freedom of Information Act 1997 and not the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003, which is before the Oireachtas. It is extraordinary that Opposition Senators are adopting the recommendations of a commissioner on a Bill which has not yet been enacted. The role of the commissioner is totally independent, but Opposition Senators are adopting an independent role as if the commissioner had the same power as the Oireachtas to change an Act. As has been stated clearly, the Government has the sole right to bring legislation before the Houses of the Oireachtas.

All Members have the right to introduce legislation, not just the Government.

The commissioner may prepare a report on the results and effects of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 when it is enacted, rather than prior to its becoming an Act of the Oireachtas. That is a fundamental difference and it is important people realise the role of the commissioner, which point the commissioner has made himself. He would be embarrassed to know that Senators are tabling amendments based on his view of a Bill that is still before the Oireachtas.

On a point of order, none of the amendments I tabled is in that category. They arose from the commissioner's assessment of the Freedom of Information Act 1997, which he will see if he looks at page 75 of the commissioner's report. The sections referred to are sections the original Act. The Cathaoirleach can confirm to the House that all the amendments I tabled, which were ruled out of order, make reference to the original Act rather than the Bill before us. I wish Senator Leyden would recognise that fact.

The commissioner has mentioned—

We are discussing section 2 and Members are straying away from it. I call Senator Henry.

On a point of information—

Senator Leyden has made his contribution and should resume his seat.

I am delighted with the commissioner. It is the original Act he is referring to on page 75 of the report. Senator O'Toole's amendment, which I seconded, will not be brought up until Report Stage and one must allude to it on Committee Stage. On section 2, the interpretation section, of the original Act, "person" should be defined under the Interpretation Act 1937. The commissioner suggests the following amended definition: "The word "person" shall, unless the contrary intention appears, be construed as importing a body corporate (whether a corporation aggregate or a corporation sole) and an un-incorporated body of persons as well as an individual;".

I realise the Minister of State may have had less time than I to examine the report, even on this section of the Freedom of Information Act 1997. Remembering how he was briefed so quickly on the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Bill, I am sure he knows why this change has been suggested. Has there been a problem with people being refused information because something was described as a body corporate and that, because a public body was a body corporate or a corporation sole, it could claim that it was not a person?

I wish to support comments made by Senators O'Toole and Henry. It is obvious that Senator O'Toole's amendments refer to the original Act. There is no doubt about it.

The Minister of State is usually a sympathetic and reasonable figure, but it was extraordinary for him to remark that we could have seen the amendments on the website. Is he suggesting that we go on a fishing expedition to websites all over the Internet in order to find information? That was a totally inappropriate remark which brings our debate to a very low level. The Minister of State should have the decency to say he made the remark in the heat of the moment or based on poor advice, which may be the case. It strikes me as similar to a remark made in the Dáil, when a Deputy was told he did not ask the right questions. This is wrong. It is bad parliamentary behaviour and should be recorded as such in the House.

The Freedom of Information Act 1997 states that the definition of a "record" applies to records created after 21 April 1998. In a High Court case, some doubt was cast on whether or not an exact replica of a record was a new record for the purposes of the 1997 Act. The commissioner has drawn attention to the potential difficulties if this was found to be binding in law. For example, a record created before 21 April 1998 could, merely by being photocopied, be brought within the scope of the Freedom of Information Act, which would create an anomaly which this amendment seeks to address.

Is Senator Henry's valid point on the Information Commissioner's suggestion on the definition of the words "person", "body corporate" and so on being accepted by the Minister of State or will he table his own amendment on Report Stage?

The word "person" is not defined in the original Act. Do the Minister of State or his officials have any idea why it is felt such as definition is needed now? Is there a problem?

This suggestion was discussed with the Office of the Information Commissioner. It was decided that it could give rise to practical and legal problems if "person" were to be defined in this way.

I will be calmer in my approach than Senator O'Toole. Page nine of the commissioner's report refers to section 2 of the Bill which includes a proposal to amend the definition of "record". This is the same presentation in the definition of "record" by adding after "two or more" in section 2 of the Act "to clarify that a photocopy or other reproductive record of details with the same date of creation as the original record". It seems to me that—

That is not my amendment. How many times do I have to say that my amendments are not—

I am trying to clarify something.

Will the Cathaoirleach show the Senator my amendments to convince him? They have nothing to do with that.

We are discussing section 2.

I am dealing with section 2 and the views expressed by the commissioner in his report. Senator O'Toole's amendments were not circulated so I do not how we could comment on them.

The Senator is telling me that my amendments derive from the commissioner's comments on the Bill before us. That is not so.

We are dealing with section 2, which is opposed by the Labour Party. Is that correct?

That is correct.

Someone made the point that the commissioner is referring to the existing Act, which is extraordinary because he refers to proposed changes. Surely he means that the Act is to be changed. Maybe I am wrong, but this surely is beyond his remit. An independent commissioner has been established, yet the Opposition is taking his views to be more significant than the Government's.

We are asking questions on the section.

Whether one likes it or not, the Government has proposed a Bill, as is its right to do. That is what we should be debating here and I recommend that section 2 stand part of the Bill.

To clarify things for Senator Leyden, the amendments Senator O'Toole and I have tabled are on page 75. Is that the page the Senator is looking at?

Those amendments do not arise.

They have not been circulated.

While we are addressing the Bill we are not sticking to its text and are drawing in other things. It is interesting that the commissioner is being blamed for doing something while simultaneously being blamed for not doing something. Section 2(a) is quite sensible and reinstates the position as the commissioner thought it was before the High Court indulged in certain semantics. The subsection referring to the local authority is also fine.

Perhaps the Minister will explain why it is necessary to extend the definition of factual information to include "information of a statistical, econometric or empirical nature, together with analysis thereof". That sort of information is generally regarded as being neutral, a technical finding, and could be of great value to people who are commenting on the quality or nature of the discussion. It is a pity to apply this to something that is almost academic in nature. While factual information should, by all means, be protected, I am puzzled as to why it needs to be so widely extended.

We are in danger of confusing things. The commissioner's report consists of two sections, namely, amendments he submitted some weeks ago—

On 5 February.

—and analysis. We should not confuse the two.

Who is confusing them?

We are clear on this.

The first section supersedes the second one. For example, it is clear that he is happy with section 2 of the Act. Appendix 2 cannot be amendments simpliciter as they refer to the original Act, not the Bill before us. They would have to be worked on to translate them into the different sections.

On a point of order, can I again say the amendments I tabled are written in the same way as this Bill is written – amendments to the principal Act. They were indicated as such and I brought this specifically to the attention of the Clerk of the House. In all cases they have been brought in as amendments that could be taken simpliciter, in the sense that they would constitute a new section of the Bill either seriatim or part of.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator's point of order is valid.

The amendments must be related to the Bill before the House, not an Act passed five years ago.

Once the principal Act is amended one can bring forward any amendment.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Long Title of this is an Act to amend, therefore Senator O'Toole is in order.

I want to tease out the issue of factual information that no one other than Senator Maurice Hayes has touched on. The definition is of most importance in section 19 of the original Act. Currently, it is open to a head, usually the Secretary General or deciding officer, to release factual information, irrespective of whether it was submitted to Government. The Government is seeking to define what factual information is. I would like to think that, for example, minutes of meetings and the analysis provided by the tax strategy group would be published. We have got used to seeing this analysis in the past four or five years. I am not sure that would be allowable within the current definition of factual information. I accept there is a certain amount of doubt.

Section 2 of this Bill refers to statistical and econometric information and it is conceivable that it would be allowed. I would like the Minister of State to reassure the House that he thinks it will be. If he is not in a position to give this reassurance, as I think is the case, we will seek to table an amendment on Report Stage to clarify the point. It is important that we still have access to reports that underpin Government decisions, such as that of the tax strategy group, since a veil is to be drawn over so much more of what is decided in terms of Government memorandums.

The Labour Party has taken the approach of opposing the entire Bill because we did not want to be compromised by suggesting less restrictive – but restrictive nonetheless – provisions would be acceptable. There are certain amendments we will seek to raise on Report Stage that we believe we can usefully stand over.

In the Long Title, it has been suggested that we can bring forward amendments to the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill. This entire Bill is amending the original Act. The commissioner, for whom I have great admiration, suggests references to members of the public should be changed to "persons". This is obviously an important step he wants us to take. What is the view of the Department of Finance on this?

In reply to an earlier question from Senator Henry, the Minister of State said that when the Department looked at the commissioner's proposals concerning the new incorporation of the word "person", there were, to use his words, legal and practical difficulties in the application of this. Will he illuminate what some of those difficulties are? When the Department had discourse with the commissioner's office on this point, what was its response?

I agree with Senator McDowell that it is desirable that the tax strategy group papers should continue to be published. The tax strategy group is not a Cabinet sub-committee, rather it is a committee that is summoned into existence by the Minister for Finance. Over the past four years, we have seen the papers, except in cases where the deliberative process is continuing. The budget usually terminates the deliberative process. I interpret the legislation as permitting the continued release on the same basis as over the past four years and informal discussions I have had give me some reassurance on this.

Senator Maurice Hayes raised a question on factual information. The Freedom of Information Act does not define this and the amendment seeks to rectify it. It is not an exhaustive definition as this would not be appropriate. The amendment is not intended to restrict the understanding of factual information, rather it seeks to clarify it.

We are all trying to be constructive. The Minister of State used the term practical and legal difficulties in response to the proposal on this new use of "person" made by the commissioner on 5 February. Can he give some examples of that? What was their response to the Department's observations on it?

I have two questions. Will the Minister list the practical and legal difficulties? This is the value of Committee Stage because it cannot be done on Report Stage. Are there other websites we should look at for information? Are other pieces of information, that are germane and relevant to this Bill, published in other places? I am seeking a clear "yes" or "no" answer. The most important issue, however, is to know what the practical and legal difficulties are because I want to examine them before Report Stage.

The point I tried to elucidate for the Minister, obviously not well, was the issue of factual information. This is critical. The Government is effectively bringing down the veil on a huge amount of information that is currently available to us, particularly in relation to Government decisions. We need clarity on this.

Let us take the example of the tax strategy group papers. I am not reassured by Senator Mansergh's comments. My reading of the Bill is that papers of committees or sub-committees of officials, and the word "official" is defined to include advisers, will no longer be available as a matter of course.

That is when they are working to the Cabinet.

The TSG does work to Cabinet.

The Minister for Finance will, therefore, use it primarily for Government. It would be easy for an official who wished to keep those papers under wraps to find a reason to do it within the terms of the Bill. If that is not the intention, I would be consoled if the Minister would put something on the record to confirm it.

With regard to Senator Hayes's query about practical and legal problems, it does not apply in section 2 but I will give an example.

A journalist makes a request on behalf of a newspaper but changes employer before a decision on that request is made. The journalist claims he made the request in a personal capacity and the newspaper claims it made the request. The public body is, therefore, drawn into a dispute. This issue is best left for guidance so it can be clarified at the time the request is made.

To be clear, I am referring to section 2 and to page 75 of the Information Commissioner's report. He proposed this amendment on 5 February. I have not taken in the import of the Minister's reply on practical legal difficulties. When he reverted to the commissioner's office, what was the reply? If the only example he can offer is in respect of whether a journalist is acting on his own behalf or on behalf of his newspaper, it is a limp excuse. What was the response of the Information Commissioner to that explanation? I am assuming the Minister referred back to the commissioner on this and that his officials had discussions with the commissioner's office.

I have been informed that there was a discussion with the Information Commissioner. The definition I have mentioned arose from that discussion.

This is crucial. The Cathaoirleach ruled that we could discuss the amendment but we could not put it before the House. It was read out by Senator Henry. The amendment is almost the same as in the Interpretation Act 1937. It states:

The word "person" shall, unless the contrary intention appears, [those few words are not being proposed here] be construed as importing a body corporate (whether a corporation aggregate or a corporation sole) and an unincorporated body of persons as well as an individual;

Two things have arisen. First, the Department is saying that using that definition without the words "unless the contrary intention appears" creates practical and legal difficulties. I will get just one shot at debating this on Report Stage and I want to know where these legal difficulties originated. Did they come from the Office of the Attorney General or did they emerge from within the Department of Finance? What precisely were these legal difficulties?

The example the Minister gave did not encompass practical and legal difficulties. The Minister mentioned somebody requesting information and its being unknown whether it was a newspaper or a person. I do not understand the legal or practical difficulties involved there, if that was the reply to my question. I need to know the legal difficulties that are worrying the Department.

Let us separate the legal difficulties from the practical difficulties and discuss the legal difficulties first. Then we can move to the practical difficulties. What legal difficulties are emerging as a result of using the definition in the 1937 Act? If it is creating difficulties here, it must be creating difficulties elsewhere. Perhaps the Minister will outline them.

I wish to press the issue I have tried three times to raise with the Minister. If I raised my voice, the Minister might be more inclined to address it. He has not addressed it yet. I am seeking a reassurance that papers such as the tax strategy group papers will be defined within the term "factual information" and could, at least at the discretion of the head of a Department, be made available to the public as they currently are. That reassurance is most important. It does not just apply to the TSG papers but to a number of other papers on economic analyses and so forth.

The Government chose to publish the Bacon report at the same time as it implemented its recommendations but if it had chosen not to, it would have been possible to suppress it under this legislation, as it has been with the high level group that recommended changes in the Freedom of Information Act. Does the Minister believe, as Senator Mansergh has told us, that the TSG and similar such papers underpinning Government budgetary decisions will be available and are comprised within the definition of factual information?

There is a slight qualification. Not everything is released. The Senator understands that.

Section 19 only allows a head to release those papers if they are not covered by some other exemption. However, they have to be comprised within the definition of factual information in the first place.

With regard to Senator McDowell's query, it is not possible to state categorically what is and what is not to be considered personal information. The purpose of defining factual—

I am not asking about personal information. I am asking about factual information.

The purpose of defining factual information as including certain types of information is to clarify an area where there has been some uncertainty. This uncertainty was referred to by the high level group.

I asked the Minister a question. It might be useful to take a break so the Minister can get the facts together.

With regard to the questions raised by Senator O'Toole, perhaps he would give us some time to come back to him with the answers.

I would be happy to do that but the difficulty is that I will not have the opportunity to discuss them. That was my point. The Minister and I can meet outside the Chamber and have a reasonable conversation but I can do no more with it. That is the difficulty. The Cathaoirleach said this can be discussed on Committee Stage. What has now emerged, and this attaches no personal blame to the Minister, is that the Minister does not have the information to deal with it. There is something wrong with that.

How can we do business in this way? If there are legal difficulties, I need to know what they are. I am not interested in bringing forward amendments that are rooted in difficulty.

The reason we do not have this information is that the amendment was not tabled. If it had been tabled, we would have had it.

This is the sequence as I understand it. We were told that this document, the amendments to improve the Freedom of Information Act, which was presented to the Minister in February was discussed by the Department's officials with the Information Commissioner and that they reached certain conclusions. That concerned section 2 of the principal Act. The Minister of State is now telling me, however, that that briefing material is not available, which is amazing. This illustrates why we needed to have a break to allow Government and Opposition Members to prepare for this debate.

I have asked a reasonable question about a central part of the Bill, which the Cathaoirleach has ruled that I may discuss, yet it is a one-sided discussion because I cannot get a simple, straightforward answer. We are told there are legal difficulties but when we ask what they are we are told the Minister of State does not know. Surely I am entitled to know what they are.

The Minister of State has basically told me he cannot give me the assurance that Senator Mansergh gave me – that the tax strategy group papers would be included as part of the definition of factual information. Will the Minister of State tell me what in God's name "statistical or empirical information, together with any analysis thereof" is intended to cover? The Minister of State has spoken about clarifying the current situation. Perhaps he will tell us what sort of information is intended to be comprised in the definition.

The amendment tabled by the Labour Party states quite clearly that the section is opposed, yet the Opposition is trying to tease out the situation.

They are questions on the section.

I am happy with section 2, which has been prepared excellently. It should be put to the House.

What is "econometric"?

This is a filibuster and I know exactly what is involved.

Surely the Senator knows what statistical information is. If he gets his dictionary out he will see. Surely he also knows what empirical information is.

What sort of information is this intended to include?

There is no need for me to provide such information. Senators should not treat the House like a national school.

If the Minister of State could give me one or two examples I would be more than happy to accept it. Clearly, somebody has decided that it is necessary to broaden the definition. If the Minister of State will not tell me whether the specific examples I have given will be included, perhaps he could tell me what will be.

We could get into a detailed philosophical discussion about whether economic data amount to fact or fiction, which could detain us here for some considerable time. It seems to be pretty obvious, however, because the words are quite explicit and easily understood. If there is a dispute as to whether or not a definition is (a) or (b), and we have a debate on that, ultimately it is open to somebody to seek recourse to the courts in order to have that matter adjudicated upon.

We are here to ensure that nobody has to go to the courts – to make sure the legislation is clear in the first place.

I would have thought the words were quite clear and could be easily understood. They should not create a particular problem. We seem to be having two debates: one about the section – I will allow that Senator McDowell has stuck closely to that – and another about the Information Commissioner's report, which does not concern the section.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As you well know, Senator Dardis, Senators are entitled to ask questions relating to the section, and I have to allow them to ask them.

There has been a great deal of discussion on the Opposition side of the House about procedure and the rules of debate but that is a two-way street.

On a point of order, the Cathaoirleach has ruled that I can raise these matters on this section. He specifically ruled on that point on three occasions. I am simply raising the interpretation of "person" and that which is in my first amendment.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I want to point out to Senator Dardis that the Cathaoirleach so ruled on questions being asked.

I have never suggested that those matters should not be discussed, but I am saying that they should be discussed within the scope of the Bill. Earlier this evening, an Opposition Senator said the Chair was partisan, while another Senator used unparliamentary language with regard to the Internet. When we come to debate these issues, Senators on both sides of the House should watch their language.

As a new Senator, I am a little confused. There is evidence that the Government has found the original Bill to be threatening.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are on section 2.

The Bill before the House should serve the public interest, yet there is a cloak of secrecy surrounding questions which the Minister of State is unable to answer.

This is a Second Stage speech.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are on section 2.

We should adjourn this debate until the Minister of State has the facts.

Let me pour oil on troubled waters by moving on a little. We have had the legal difficulties but what are the practical difficulties?

The practical difficulties concern what will happen between the journalist and the newspaper. They will end up in court – that is the practical difficulty.

As to who owns the information and who is in possession of it?

May I ask about the question of legal difficulties?

That is legal as well. It is a matter for the court.

Is the ruling that if the journalist were to ask for the information, it could be construed that somebody else had it and that there was a legal difficulty?

It is an example.

Is that the advice? Is that exactly where we stand?

Who owns the information where a journalist leaves a newspaper – the journalist or the newspaper?

It is the person who asked for it. All this section does is to say that it can be construed as importing whichever.

Who says that? The newspaper will say it is their property because the journalist represented the newspaper. The newspaper will say they own it and the journalist will say he owns it, but if the journalist has gone the legal and practical difficulties arise.

That is not the import of it. The import is that it does not matter which one of them asks for the information. Whoever asks for it can receive it. It is written down that a person should be construed to be a body corporate. That is all is says; it says nothing else and it is that simple. If somebody writes in from a newspaper they can be dealt with as a person. It depends on who signs their name on the request and on what basis they sign it. There are no legal difficulties there.

For an individual and a body corporate?

Question put.

Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Hayes, Maurice.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Lydon, Don.

MacSharry, Marc.Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Rourke, Mary.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Kate.Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

Bannon, James.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Coonan, Noel.Feighan, Frank.Finucane, Michael.Hayes, Brian.Henry, Mary.

Higgins, Jim.McCarthy, Michael.McDowell, Derek.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators Henry and O'Toole.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

It has been brought to my attention that in the course of an energetic response some time back I used unparliamentary language, for which I deeply apologise to the House. It was not something I planned to do and I was not even aware of it until it was brought to my attention. I am sorry about that and I should not have done it. It does not show proper respect for the House and I am sorry.

We accept that.

I will start off our trenchant opposition to this appalling section.

The section eliminates the need for a notice in Iris Oifigiúil in relation to the delegation of the functions of the Minister or the Secretary General. On the face of it this appears quite reasonable but unfortunately it creates doubt as to who exactly is dealing with a particular application. My understanding of the current procedure in the bigger Departments is that principal officers are the designated officers for applications which affect their particular sections. Everyone knows this and it is clear – the name usually appears on the initial response people get. People then know who is dealing with the application from the start until the initial decision is made.

Removal of the notification procedure means we will not know who is dealing with the request and it will be possible for the Secretary General, acting on behalf of the Minister, to appoint a different person to deal with an application, depending on the circumstances and nature of the application. This does not give us the level of certainty we require, neither does it give us the level of continuity desirable for the operation of the Act in a particular Department.

If someone is the FOI officer or deals with FOI applications for a particular section he or she develops an expertise, almost a jurisprudence, over time. He or she can make decisions more easily and those applying have a better idea also of how their applications are likely to be received, which adds generally to the efficiency of the system. It is important that people know those dealing with their applications have experience. If it is considered necessary to remove the formal notification by way of Iris Oifigiúil, that has to be replaced by some other method by which someone is designated and remains designated for the course of an application. A particular individual, a principal officer or otherwise, should be designated for different types of applications. Iris Oifigiúil may not be the best way to do this but there must be some means by which people are designated.

The amendment is in my name also and jumps out at one straight away. This provision seems to impede people's right to know who had what jurisdiction or function within the operation of the Freedom of Information Act.

The principal Act states:

4.–(1) A head may delegate in writing to a member of the staff of the public body concerned any of the functions of the head under this Act (other than this section and section 25).

(2) A delegation under subsection (1) (“a delegation”) may–

(a) relate to functions generally or specified functions or be in respect of records generally or specified classes of records or specified records, and

(b) be to a specified member or specified members of the staff of the public body concerned or to such members who are of a specified rank or grade or of a rank or grade not lower than a specified rank or grade,

Subsection (3) then states:

A delegation may be revoked in whole or in part or amended in writing by the head for the time being of the public body concerned.

The subsection it is proposed to delete states:

(5) The head concerned shall cause notice of a delegation or of a revocation or amendment under subsection (3) to be published in Iris Oifigiúil not later than 4 weeks after the making of the delegation, revocation or amendment, as the case may be.

It is obvious, as Senator McDowell said, that this cuts across the process of informing people about who exactly has what responsibility. It is wrong that we should deprive the public in any way of the knowledge of who exactly has decision-making powers. Until now Iris Oifigiúil was the Bible beautiful but now it seems that if this power is removed, then it has effectively been stood down as an organ of information regarding who has what responsibility within the public service.

I do not agree with the Information Commissioner, who stated that this provision places too great a burden on various bodies in the public service when it comes to publishing details of those who have particular responsibilities. It seems fundamental that one of the basic tenets or instruments in this area is that one provides knowledge regarding who has responsibility. If someone is stood down from that responsibility, to whom is that function transferred? That is what we are referring to here and removing it is a very negative measure. That is why I join with the Labour Party in opposing the removal of subsection (5).

Section 4(1) of the original Act states that a head may delegate in writing to a member of the staff of the public body concerned any of the functions of the head, and so on. If the head is delegating to a member of staff in writing then that is "FOI-able". If I or any member of the public rang the county secretary of Kildare County Council and asked who the FOI officer was, that information would be readily available.

It is unnecessary bureaucracy to have to publish this in Iris Oifigiúil. The number of people who read Iris Oifigiúil is quite small and they are probably the people who know who the delegated person is anyway. From a common sense perspective I see no necessity for subsection (5). It is sensible to amend it.

This may appear an innocuous deletion on the surface but it goes to the heart of the principles of the 1997 Act. The then Minister of State, Eithne Fitzgerald, was trying to make Departments more open and transparent and one of her approaches was to make it as easy as possible for the public to access information. Those of us who deal with Departments on a daily basis forget how intimidating it can be for the public to approach a Department and to get information. This section of the original Act deals with that.

Senator Dardis's comment regarding the delegation in writing by a head of department being "FOI-able" is a little mad. Would one have to make an FOI request to find out to whom the head of the Department has delegated functions?

Which is mad, the Senator or the suggestion?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator O'Meara, without interruption.

The listing in Iris Oifigiúil is an important function. It underlines the principle of Departments being open, accessible and accountable in that Iris Oifigiúil is in the public domain and can be accessed, even on the Internet, by anybody who so wishes. While this may appear to be an innocuous deletion, it is anything but. It is one of the amendments which will make it more difficult for members of the public to obtain information, which, as we know, is the object of the exercise.

It might be helpful to illuminate the discussion by outlining how freedom of information legislation works in a Department. The deletion has probably been proposed because the current clause does not correspond to the reality of the operation of the Act. In practice, freedom of information requests are handled de facto by a person in each of the divisions. Clearly, it is difficult for a formal co-ordinator of requests, in, for example, the Taoiseach's office, to make a decision on a matter which comes within the remit of the economic or European division. The same person could theoretically make a decision on a cultural or information society issue. In practice, however, a person who is familiar with the subject matter of the section or division in question has to make the decision.

Although consultation takes place among a number of individuals, normally a person in a middle-ranking position in the relevant section or division takes the decision, unless the matter is of major importance and must be referred to the Secretary General of the Department in question. It is unrealistic to assume that only one person is responsible overall. If authority is delegated, it means that the Secretary General of the Department is the identifiable person responsible. As such, the person who acts as the post office in the Department is immaterial. This is probably the reason the clause is being deleted.

Following Senator Mansergh's useful contribution, I am more convinced than ever that we should try to retain the section. Surely a person must type up replies to freedom of information requests. Therefore, someone must take responsibility for them. If replies are made by committee, where will it take us?

I expected the Government to accept this amendment as I could not see a problem with it, particularly in view of the fact that, with regard to section 3 of the principal Act, my new found friend, the Information Commissioner, proposes even greater openness in respect of requests. He suggests there should be "an obligation on the Minister for Finance to collect, collate and publish (within two months of the end of each calendar) relevant statistics in relation to FOI usage in the relevant year, and . an obligation on public bodies to provide the Minister with such statistics, and in such manner (including timescale) as the Minister determines, in relation to FOI usage in the relevant year."

These proposals would provide us with material of a "statistical, econometric or empirical nature" and thereby ensure we know exactly what we are talking about when we raise the issue of factual information. It would be a good idea to keep such factual information in the Act.

I commend Senator Henry on her selective quotations from the Information Commissioner's recommendations.

I am sure Senator Leyden will illuminate the matter for us.

He is the expert.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

The Information Commissioner's recommendations assist us in this respect. On section 4(5), he states:

It appears that this provision is not being observed and is a burden on public bodies. As the provision has no obvious value and could be used to highlight non-compliance on the part of public bodies, it is suggested that it should be removed from the Act.

It is extraordinary that the Opposition is not happy with the Minister's decision to remove this provision from the Act. The last occasion on which I debated Iris Oifigiúil in the House was with former President, the then Senator, Mary Robinson. We had a great debate on its merits in relation to the removal of the word “illegitimacy” from the law of the land. Since my return to the House last July, I have not received a copy of it. However, when I served as a Deputy, I received a copy on each occasion it was published.

It is probably available on the Internet.

Perhaps other Senators receive it. I used to find it interesting to read. If I want to find out who is the designated information officer of the Midland Health Board, I would telephone the board.

Is the Opposition living in the real world in opposing the Bill and the removal of this section? The amendment is progressive and the removal of the provision is recommended by the commissioner. The Opposition adopts his recommendations when it suits and ignores them when it does not. Senator Henry, for example, did not even mention the commissioner's recommendation on this section, but instead quoted one on another section to support her arguments. It is about time this farce came to an end as it is obvious every effort is being made to prolong the debate and denigrate the Bill by raising objections to relevant and practical points. To think that Iris Oifigiúil, a document which no longer appears to be circulated in the House—

The Senator loves it. He reads it all the time.

I do not receive it and I am not yet connected to the Internet. Does anybody in the House get a copy every month? Perhaps I am the exception.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is repeating himself.

I am amazed by the position adopted by Senator Henry, for whom I have great respect. She is a wonderful Senator.

I am not slavishly following the Information Commissioner's recommendations. I am making decisions.

That is the point. The Opposition is slavishly following the recommendations in terms of its amendments, all of which will be based on them. I base my support for the Bill on the actual—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to speak to the section.

The Government amendment is excellent and I commend the Department and the Minister for it. The Government receives advice from the best advisers available to the State and I have tremendous respect for that advice. I have made my case in favour of accepting the section.

He made it well.

There is gorgeous irony in Senator Leyden's approach. He argues that it is somehow odd that Members on this side adopt a different position from the commissioner on some aspects of the Bill, without realising that he is doing precisely the same from the opposite perspective. I love the irony of this, although the fact that it is wasted is a little depressing.

This is an important moment to examine this issue because it proves the point made earlier. I am also glad the Senator found the end of the book in relation to the commissioner's recommendations on the original Bill. It shows we have covered a substantial amount in the past five minutes. The point Senator Leyden makes is that each of the Information Commissioner's recommendations should be considered, addressed and decided upon.

As Senator Mansergh stated, the commissioner is not the Government and, therefore, does not decide on the content of legislation. From this we can logically conclude that, as he reports to the House, it is important we discuss what he has to say on the Act. Having closely examined his recommendations, this is one of the points on which I do not agree with him. We are not slavishly following the lead of any person outside of Parliament, no more than we accept what is handed down by Government. We deal with each issue as it comes.

I went through the Bill at the weekend before I knew of or had sight of the document we are now discussing. My objection is based on my experience of dealing with FOI requests to Departments. In another part of the principal Act, as Senator Mansergh stated, it is stated a head, meaning a section head, may delegate any of these functions to various people but what is required under the section we are now proposing to delete is that a record be kept and that it be brought to public attention. What does this mean?

In a previous existence if I, as general secretary of a teachers' union, had wanted to make an FOI request, I would have made a simple check to find out who was the FOI officer dealing with the matter and the request would have been made to that person. Contact with Iris Oifigiúil would only have been made if the person's name was not on the list sent by the Department of Education and Science. In other words, one would have known where to go for the information. That is important because it was the spirit of the legislation that the FOI officer would almost always be a person of middle or lower rank, certainly not senior rank, in the Department. That gave a sense of objectivity because the person concerned decided on whether the information was to be sent without making a judgment beyond what was required of him or her.

I have two concerns. If I was the head of a Department and as I am a person who is inclined to take short cuts to get from here to there—

Not in this Bill.

I am not as good as the Senator. I have many flaws and faults, as he saw earlier.

The Senator has to get to his ATM machine.

If I was head of a Department and a request came in from a journalist, I might consider it an irritation that he or she should be looking for the information in question and might decide to hand it to my colleague, Dr. Henry, who deals with the particular section because she would know what to do with it. I might pass on the next request to somebody else. Eventually it goes up the line and happens in a way which is not amenable to the spirit of the Act, although there is nothing particularly bad about it.

I accept what Senator Mansergh said. In the same way as the head is the Accounting Officer in other ways in this situation he or she is the accountable officer but a record should be kept somewhere of who is responsible for each area, which not be changed week after week. That is important because when the Act came into operation and requests began to be made – I ask Senator Mansergh to confirm this because he worked closely in this area – they were difficult for civil servants to deal with in terms of the amount of information that should be provided and where to look for it. There is a build up, not just of jurisprudence, as mentioned by Senator McDowell, but also of practical experience which is equally important.

My father used to say the worst kind of law was a law which was ignored. In that sense I am taken by the Information Commissioner's view that this area is not being dealt with and is being ignored. He came to the conclusion that we should get rid of it. I can understand that tidies up an Act but I am not attracted by that argument. I would prefer to make it mandatory.

I would like to hear a response to the point made earlier. If a record is not kept here, there should be a record somewhere of who is responsible for each section. The same applies to every Department, not just the Taoiseach's. In the Department of Education and Science various officers deal with primary and post-primary schools or whatever. That would also be the case in a Department like the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment where there are three obvious divisions. It is important that there are officers charged with responsibility for this area on which they will build practical experience as well as jurisprudence. There would then be officers recognisable in the role.

I am not convinced of the utility of Iris Oifigiúil as a means of conveying information on anything to anyone, particularly to those who might be looking for information on personal circumstances or whatever. I shed no tears over that particular subsection. If it is not being used, that is the end of the matter and the world has not come to an end.

I was a member of the committee which dealt with the strategic management initiative in the last Seanad and for years we encouraged Departments to be more user friendly and let people know who was responsible for particular areas. What we are talking about is ensuring best administrative practice without being too heavy-handed.

There is also merit in the point made by Senator O'Toole in that it is worthwhile to have one person dealing with these matters. As Senator Mansergh said, in a large Department responsibility will be farmed out but there is something to be said for building expertise and maintaining continuity of approach and decisions.

It is also important to guard against what might be called either arbitrary delegation to a particular person or the arbitrary removal of delegation in another. Ideally, Departments and bodies should have a directory containing the names of those to whom powers have been delegated under the Act. Will the Minister of State give an assurance that this will be done? While it would be helpful if a way could be found of expressing this on the face of the Bill, I agree that it is not worth dying in the ditch for Iris Oifigiúil.

In reply to Senator O'Toole, training is provided. In my experience, Departments take FOI requests seriously as they do not wish to be in breach of the law. Obviously, there is an information officer co-ordination point but inevitably decisions require a great deal of judgment as to how one applies the rules in the specific instance. I participated in decision making on FOI requests when people would come to me for advice. I do not believe any legislation will ever cover this. That is also true of the National Archives Act. One can be of a liberal frame of mind and decide that one will issue, within the parameters, the maximum possible information or one may be the type of person who tends to play safe – perhaps, in the judgment of many, too safe. While I am not sure that any legislation, however written, will remove that area of judgment, I hope the amended legislation will be interpreted in a liberal spirit.

I want to make a brief point. I keep thinking of the freedom of information officer whom I know in the local authority. It appears, from reading section 4 of the principal Act, that if the freedom of information officer goes on holiday or becomes ill and somebody is appointed to act in his or her place, there will be a legal requirement under the Act to communicate this to Iris Oifigiúil. That is unnecessary and bureaucratic.

The Administration Yearbook and Diary contains information on freedom of information which is not universal. To be practical, that would be a far more appropriate place. Far more people read that than read Iris Oifigiúil and it is a standard reference book for most people involved in administration. I am not saying there needs to be a legal provision for that, but it would be useful if it were universally available in a book like that which is much more accessible to the public, rather than in Iris Oifigiúil.

In my previous experience I would have known who the freedom of information officer was. I cannot understand how an ordinary citizen seeking to get information about his or her personal case would be motivated to order Iris Oifigiúil to find out the name of the information officer when it is easier to telephone the Department. Why should people have to figure out where to get Iris Oifigiúil and peruse it thoroughly or even to get a diary as mentioned by Senator Dardis? That is all very cumbersome. Who would tell ordinary people about Iris Oifigiúil? It is a very elitist way for people to get information. People simply phone the Department and ask for the information officer.

While I understand there is an information officer, people like Senator Mansergh seem to tell us that everything is delegated and the decisions are not made by the information officer.

He or she gathers information. They would not have the precise information.

While I have never worked in a Department, from what I have heard the information officer is not necessarily the person who will write the reply. Based on what Senator Mansergh said, the work is delegated to different people. It is great to be able to find out who is dealing with a specific request.

It is not so long since civil servants were not allowed to give their names. I remember phoning a Department and asking for the person's name so that I could phone her back. When she told me she was not allowed give her name I asked how many people worked there and was told there was only one other person, who was called Miriam. When I rang back I had to ask for the person who was not Miriam. Based on what has been said by Senator Mansergh and Senator O'Toole, quite rightly one person in the Department is the expert on giving information on one subject. Simply getting the name of the freedom of information officer does not mean getting the name of the person who dealt with the case, because there is obviously considerable delegation.

There is only one designated.

I wish to reinforce the point made by Senator O'Rourke. I cannot understand what the fuss is about. It is very simple to ring up a particular section of a local authority and get the information. Why are we going through such a rigmarole?

What Senator O'Rourke said would make great sense if it worked in practice. I made two 15-minute phone calls today to the Companies Office, but could not get through because of lack of staff in that office. The same is true in every Department and the problem is spreading to local authorities. It is not possible to ring without being put on hold for hours. We need some place where all those things are written down and we can identify the person responsible. We probably have the facility of having phone numbers that allow us to get straight through. However, ordinary people who ring up get an answering machine requesting them to press a different number depending on the section required. It does not work in a straightforward manner.

Although Senators are fairly well informed, nobody in this House has admitted receiving a copy of Iris Oifigiúil.

That is because we have to pay for them.

I have not received a copy since 1992, but then I was out for a while. According to the requirements of the 1997 Act, the name of the dedicated officer in Roscommon County Council was sent to Iris Oifigiúil. If I wanted to find that, would I have to go through every edition of Iris Oifigiúil from 1998 to 2003? I can simply ring 0903 62100 and ask for the name of the information officer. I can ring the Midland Health Board and get the same information. As a former chairman of the Western Health Board, I know the health boards take this Act very seriously. There is a particular officer designated under the Act who has responsibility to co-ordinate information across all departments and he or she will deliver the information to the requester.

I believe the objection to the deletion of this is somewhat mischievous. The Opposition is trying to labour each point and delay the Bill.

If we were it would assist the Government side greatly.

How many ways can I explain why this provision should be deleted?

We understand.

I know the Senator understands. We are very practical and pragmatic on this side of the House. Senator O'Toole will be delighted to hear I voted for the national agreement today. I want to keep him happy, because he is in bad humour today.

I am delighted to hear that.

Did the Senator vote for it himself?

This has nothing to do with the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill.

On Second Stage the Minister said the Act has been extended. Since 1998, tens of thousands of requests have been made to public bodies, the large majority of which have been granted in full or part. I assure the Senators that not one of them went to Iris Oifigiúil to find out the officer in charge of freedom of information in a local authority.

I will not accept this amendment as it would result in retaining the requirement that notice of a delegation under section 4 of the principal Act be published in Iris Oifigiúil. This requirement has been burdensome and of questionable value. Senators opposed may wish to note the Information Commissioner concurs with this view and has also proposed the deletion of this requirement, as outlined by Senator Leyden.

Details of delegations coming under the Act continue to be published in the annual report of the Minister for Finance under section 15 of the principal Act. Names and designations of members of staff responsible for enabling members of the public to access records must also be published by the body under section 15(1)(e) of the Act in the section 15 manual which is a public document.

I do not want to detain the House on this issue. I made it clear in my first contribution that I am not particularly hung up on Iris Oifigiúil and I agree very few people read it. However, it is important the information be available both for ease of access and, as Senator Maurice Hayes put it, to avoid the arbitrary designation, re-designation or un-designation of individual people. There should be some obligation on the part of a Department to make known who is dealing with applications in a particular section above and beyond the publication in the manual, which unless I am mistaken is a once off. I am not bothered about whether that is done on the website, by laying it before the Dáil or by whatever means of publication is most useful. There should be a means by which the Department or public body has an obligation to say who is dealing with it. I will introduce an amendment on this on Report Stage.

Senator Leyden has raised an important point. He is right about Iris Oifigiúil. I receive it occasionally, but I do not know from where it comes. I cannot remember when I last saw that very poor publication. Many announcements are published in Iris Oifigiúil, but it is like a cloak of secrecy when one considers who sees it.

That is the point.

My case was not based on that. I do not disagree with the points made about Iris Oifigiúil, but the reason this was included in the first instance was so that it would not be dealt with in an arbitrary manner – changed from month to month or application to application. In addition, there should be a record of who is doing what. I agree with the points about Iris Oifigiúil. The information should be in an easily accessible place, even on the Department's website, as long as we know its location. Would the Minister accept an amendment on Report Stage that would provide simply for the publication of the information?

I will take note of that and come back on Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

This section represents a substantial change, although it is touted as something perfunctory. In reality it changes the requirement on the part of public bodies to provide personal information to individuals.

Previously, any record which contained information related to an individual had to be disclosed. Now there is a much tighter requirement that the record must contain personal information. The commissioner's very helpful report points to a number of cases where the definition has been of critical importance in determining what can be released. He is in no doubt that this section will restrict the personal information to which people will be able to gain access. This is of great importance to individuals, as opposed to people who want to find out what is happening in the political system. The personal information provision is vital. There is an onus on the Government, if it is restricting the availability of personal information, to tell us why it believes it is necessary to do this. I have not heard any persuasive argument why this should be tightened up.

I was surprised when I heard it reported on RTE news that the Taoiseach said the Bill would not affect individuals. This is the area where it will have most effect. The words "relate to" are totally different from "contain". They are much broader and changing them represents a huge diminution of the amount of information people can obtain about themselves. This is terribly important where people need to make corrections to records. False impressions may have been given, but, because something did not directly contain personal information, a person would be refused access to the information.

The word "contain" is a more precise formulation than "relate to". I can imagine, as a civil servant who has had to contribute to decision-making, having awful judgment problems about whether something relates to something else. It is vague and ambiguous. The word "contain" is much more precise. Precision in legislation, which makes it easy for people to apply, has merit.

That is correct. It may be easier for the person who is giving out the information, but it may be much more difficult for the person who is seeking the information.

It is fine for the people who will dispense the information, but those seeking information about themselves will face huge consequences. The individual will be more restricted in the personal files he or she will be able to access. He will only be allowed to access files, subject to 11 exemptions, that contain information about him. Records that do not contain personal information, as defined in the Act, will be excluded. That is a specific exclusion and the danger is that civil servants will use this provision to create mirror records on individuals who will then be unable to amend the information if it is incorrect because they will not have access to the records.

The implications are serious. The word "contain" looks innocuous and more precise, but that precision is not in the best interests of individuals seeking records on their own personal welfare.

Section 4 amends section 6 of the principal Act by substituting the word "contain" for the words "relate to" in subsection (5)(v). This amendment is necessary to clarify that a personal record created prior to the date of commencement of the principal Act, 21 April 1998, can be accessed if the information in the record satisfied the definition of personal information contained in section 2 of the principal Act.

The purpose of this provision is not to restrict information but to achieve clarity. The use of the words "relate to" carries the potential for inconsistent application because different public bodies may interpret what "relate to" means in different ways. When dealing with personal information it is very important that decision makers have a clear understanding as to what constitutes personal information.

Section 2 of the Act contains a definition of personal information that is comprehensive but not exhaustive. This definition provides that personal information means information about an identifiable individual that would, in the ordinary course of events, be known only to the individual or members of family or friends of the individual, or is held by a public body on the understanding that it would be treated by it as confidential.

Without prejudice to the generality of these two conditions, the definition then lists comprehensive categories of information that is to be considered personal. By replacing "relate to" with "contain" a decision-maker only has to examine the definition of personal information I have mentioned and satisfy him or herself that it meets the definition rather that having to decide whether a record relates to personal information. In short, "relate to" is simply too vague a formulation in this important and sensitive area. The meaning of "relate to" has already been the subject of an appeal under the Freedom of Information Act to the High Court.

This is a sensible provision designed to achieve clarity. I reject any assertion that it is designed to restrict information. I note that a leading authority on freedom of information in Ireland, Maeve McDonagh, was quoted in The Sunday Times on 9 March as saying that she saw no difficulty with this amendment and I believe it is reasonable.

I understand what the Minister of State is saying. It can be very difficult and awkward, especially if somebody else within the family might be affected by the information being given. I take Senator Mansergh's point that it is far simpler for the person giving the information to have a word such as "contain" used but it also takes away the discretion if one can see that there is something which could be very useful perhaps to the person seeking the information. That no longer applies under the Bill. Although one might see that the best interests of the person seeking information would be best served by giving him or her the information, one would not be in a position to do so. I do not believe it is a matter of trying to batten down the hatches or draw a fresh veil of secrecy over information. The intention is as the Minister of State said but I question the wisdom. Is it not taking away discretion from the person giving the information, although it may be simpler for them? It is perhaps depriving a person seeking information of something which could be extremely useful to him or her.

The effect of this section – the Minister of State does not appear to disagree – will undoubtedly be to restrict information. It will mean that information which could previously have been released will not or may not now be released. Whatever the intentions of Government, it must address the reality of what will happen as a result of its amendment. Given this reality, there is an onus on the Minister and Government, which has not been discharged, to explain the reason it is considered absolutely necessary to do so. Will the Minister of State give an example of circumstances in which he believes a civil servant or administrative official has been "used" and the adverse reaction or damage which has resulted? I grant, as Senator Henry did, that it allows a certain discretion to those who have to make these decisions but what is wrong with this? If the discretion is used, subject to the various exemptions, to give people information on themselves, I cannot see that any harm is done by leaving a certain measure of discretion and retaining the somewhat looser phrase in the Act.

I compliment the Minister of State on elaborating in such detail on this section. The explanatory memorandum sets out the reason for this proposed change and I respect the advice given to the Department by experts in this field. I am glad the debate has moved on to the detail and substance of the Bill, rather than trying to avoid it. Why is the section being opposed by the Labour Party? It has not elaborated on the reason. Why not propose to delete a word, or whatever, rather than simply opposing the section completely? That approach is unfair and adds nothing to the debate.

The section is entirely objectionable. It is as simple as that.

In my experience of tabling amendments when in opposition, it is a simple matter to present an alternative wording to the Minister's proposal. The Minister of State has elaborated very well on the matter. It has never been my experience, either as a Minister of State or Member of either House, that I have had to rely on a document just published on the day of a debate. As that "bible" does not give any guidance on this section, I assume there will not be any amendments from Senators O'Toole or Henry in this regard in the absence of any recommendation or advice from the Information Commissioner.

The Senator should not make that assumption.

I cannot find any reference to section 4 in my copy of the report. Perhaps the Senator has a different book. I commend this section of the Bill to the House, having regard to the Minister of State's very detailed elaboration on it.

If the Senator finds it difficult to understand the reason things have been done in a particular way, that bears no comparison to the surprise on this side of the House on having perfectly framed amendments ruled out by the Chair. We also have to cope with major meetings of committees taking place at the same time as Report Stage in this House and not being provided with full information on issues. There is a great deal of new experience and the Opposition is learning all the time. Some of us have been out of government for 16 years.

The Senator is not without some influence on Governments.

I am a creature of government. I have to do business with whatever Government the people put into office.

I thought the Senator was non-aligned at all times.

It is quite incredible to suggest that this Bill does not restrict information – it does. Irrespective of whether it is a good or bad idea, it certainly restricts information on a substantial scale. I will give a few examples as to how it would operate. The classic example would involve people seeking access to information arising from a complaint. In other words, a person could have a major interest in a complaint made about a close colleague, into which the person, by inference but not by name, could be drawn. This example relates to situations which I have observed many times. It has been a regular practice for Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas to use the FOI Act to obtain information for constituents who considered they were being unfairly represented in correspondence, possibly, though not necessarily, involving a complaint. A person may be misrepresented in a manner which does not necessarily involve being named.

Another example could involve a general report such as a school report which might not name individuals but people could see themselves as being clearly identifiable from the manner in which the report was written. While it would not contain personal information, it would contain information that could relate very closely to individuals, professionally and otherwise. I could give many more examples. It is absolutely incorrect to say the Bill does not restrict information. It does. Perhaps there is a reason for this, though I do not accept the argument made by the Minister of State. However, there can be no doubt that information will be restricted.

With regard to today's report by the Information Commissioner, I draw Senator Leyden's attention to the third part. In the earlier parts the first three or four pages dealt with the background followed by a general overview. At the very end there was a piece on the original Act which Senator Leyden quoted to good effect. I now draw his attention to page 10 in which the commissioner did what the Senator considered inexcusable by passing comment on the current Bill. He saw this as part of his function under section 39 of the existing Act and commented on it in some detail. He referred to the High Court judgment to which the Minister of State also referred. The report stated, "Where the record does not name or has no expressed reference to the requester, a substantial link will be established if the record relates to something in which the requester has a substantial personal interest". That is the important aspect. That is what is in place at present, as distinct from something in which the person has an interest as a member of a general community or a large-scale class of people. In that sense, it would not be a matter on which the person could make demands. One can see that a very clear distinction is made in that regard. The commissioner went on to state, "It is clear that records which "relate to" personal information as currently provided encompasses a broader category of records than records which "contain" personal information". That is perfectly logical and nobody can argue with it.

The Minister of State argued that a judgment has to be made. I agree but that was always the intention of the Act. If people felt that they were not getting personal information in the correct way, then it was up to them to appeal that or try to find another way around it, and that is also built into the Act. Therefore nobody lost out in that sense.

I accept the Minister's point that at times this could be a difficult judgment call and sometimes people could get it wrong, but that is not the issue here. People are entitled to get things wrong. If they get it wrong, then there is an appeal process which they can follow, and that is also built into the legislation.

None of those points contains a substantial validating argument for bringing in this amendment. I certainly remain to be convinced on that issue. Where is the problem being created? Apart from their need to make a judgment, what happens next?

I must repeat that the purpose of this provision is not to restrict information. The provision is causing considerable uncertainty. Case law now requires, for example, that a decision-maker try to determine what was in the mind of the person creating the record in relation to a particular person. As I mentioned earlier, there is case law in an appeal to the High Court. As a result, it has been necessary to bring in the amendment.

Does the case law to which the Minister refers arise from the High Court judgment?

Is it incorrect then to state the interpretation given here, that there must be a decision made as to whether there was a sufficiently substantial link between the requester's personal information and the record in question? Is that incorrect? They ask a question and the FOI officer goes through the information available and has to make a decision as to whether it is appropriate. The officers do not have to get into anybody's mind. They simply work on the basis of the question.

I have been informed that what the Senator cited there is only part of the finding of the High Court—

I am aware of that.

—and we would have to take the whole finding into account. We will get that for the Senator.

I know that is only part of the finding, not the complete judgment. We can look at the judgment. Is the Minister of State advising me that it is an incorrect summation of the judgment that what must be done is to establish that there is a sufficiently substantial link between the information and the record in question?

Since the Taoiseach patently thinks this Bill does not affect individuals, because he obviously would not have said that if he knew there is to be such a change in the way applications must be made and the way information can be given out, could the Minister of State look at this between now and Report Stage? I have heard it reported on the news that the Taoiseach said this Bill will not affect individuals. Because the Taoiseach is a busy man, he may not know that this part will affect individuals and nobody else. No corporations will be affected. Nothing like that will be affected. Could the Minister of State do that between now and Report Stage?

In defence of the Taoiseach, the Opposition has entirely failed to demonstrate that there is, in terms of practical end effect, a difference between "relate to" and "contain". The superiority of the word "contain" is that it is legally precise. We should not, in this case, keep language in legislation which is ambiguous and ambivalent. Whether it is "relate to" or "contain", the officer concerned must make a judgment. I doubt if in practice, whether either word is in use, it will make much difference, except in this respect, that "relate to" is ambiguous and could raise uncertainty. It is capable of a potentially wide definition, including stuff which is semi-irrelevant to it. In terms of precision, "contain" is much the better word.

Senator Mansergh is absolutely right. The meaning of "relate to" is much wider—

Only potentially.

—than "contain". I could see "contain" being defined eventually in a way that if it did not contain your name and address, you might not get any information.

That is exactly it.

It would mean that names will have to be there. Next there will be a need for the date of birth to be sure it was not another Mary Henry or something like that.

Senator O'Toole's quotation from the Commissioner's report is only a partial summary of the judgment.

He did not give the full information in the report.

He did not give the full judgment.

He left out things. He did a Terry Leyden on it.

We will get the full judgment for Senator O'Toole. He will be able to make an exact judgment on it then.

On Senator Mansergh's point, the words "relate to" are all over legislation, as the House will be aware. Whether it is ambivalent or otherwise, it is well used. It is no more ambivalent than the words "as far as is practicable", which appear in every piece of legislation I have ever seen. Somebody has to make a judgment about it and come to various conclusions. The reality is that we are now going to close down information. Even if it is only potentially wider, "contain" has a very contained meaning, whereas "relate to" has a much wider meaning. If they both have potential, there is just no comparison in terms of scale.

There are people seeking information and the quality of their access is being extraordinarily restricted and constrained by what is being proposed. Nobody has denied that. It may well be that there are difficulties. It may well be that people have to come to certain conclusions. It may well be that the officer must say it is hard to decide whether a file, containing information about a certain group of people but not mentioning Joe O'Toole by name, is telling the world in no uncertain terms what a not very nice person I am, for example, but because my name is not contained in it, then the file does not become accessible.

When the legislation was enacted in 1997, I spoke on this section. I pointed out that part of the section the Minister of State quoted, section 2, the definition of personal information, or else section 12, rules out personal records of a human resources or personnel nature. Gardaí have had an arrangement for many years whereby they have full access to all their files after a period of five years. The original Act was more restrictive than what was available to gardaí at that time, and they would be people who would be dealing with sensitive information in sensitive places. In the light of what we have learned in the meantime and in the light of the difficulties which Senator Higgins is dealing with on our behalf, perhaps it should have been even more open.

For us to say that in future information must be proven to contain the person's name is overly restrictive, particularly in the light of the interpretation given to it by the commissioner, to the extent of saying that a substantial link had to be established, and that is the burden of proof, the height of the bar.

I can assure the Minister of State, as he can well imagine, that I will be on to the Office of the Information Commissioner tomorrow morning to ask him why he was so selectively quoting from the judgment if there were issues of importance of which we were not told. I will also get my hands on the judgment to read the whole lot of it, just to see what we are missing.

This is my third time to ask for a legal definition. Could the Minister tell us what were the issues in that judgment which we have not been told about? We will put those on the record and discuss them when we come to Report Stage. What exactly was in the judgment that we have not heard about?

We need to remember that we are talking about personal information. I do not accept that the people making the decisions will necessarily decide in a restrictive manner just because the word "contain" is used. It gives a firm basis, but there has always been room for discretion and judgment when it comes to supplying information that might be helpful. I do not see that there is a problem, but if there is, it will be a problem regardless of the language used. No legislation can solve the problem of the difference between officials who interpret law in a restrictive and minimalist fashion and those who interpret and apply it in a liberal fashion.

In this section we are talking about the right of people to personal information. There should be no ambiguity about the information that is supplied. The word "contain" would ensure no ambiguity, whereas "relate to" would allow for ambiguity. The case to which I referred dealt with what was in the mind of the person creating a record relating to another person.

Would the Minister agree that if there were some servants of the State who were predisposed to act, in Senator Mansergh's words, in a minimalist and restrictive fashion, what we are about to do is to make it ten times easier for them to operate in this way? We are actually giving support to people in that frame of mind. If people were of that viewpoint it would be better if they were to deal with the words "relate to" than the word "contain". The box is becoming smaller and smaller, as in an Edgar Allan Poe story.

I must disagree with that. "Relate to" is also perfectly capable of being interpreted in an extremely restrictive and minimalist fashion.

More than "contain"?

No, about the same.

Question put.

Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Lydon, Don.MacSharry, Marc.

Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Rourke, Mary.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Kate.Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

Bannon, James.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coonan, Noel.Feighan, Frank.Finucane, Michael.

Henry, Mary.Higgins, Jim.McDowell, Derek.Norris, David.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators Henry and O'Toole.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."

It appears the document we received from the Information Commissioner has caused a certain degree of outrage among Government Senators.

That is not in order.

As a parliamentarian, I have found this report extremely helpful.

Hear, hear.

At a time today when we were stuck on a particular issue, this report proved useful. I wish the record of the House to show that this is the kind of support we need as parliamentarians. It shows no support for the position taken by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We need more of this, rather than less, and yet this is the kind of information we will not receive in future.

This is off the record.

On the contrary, it is all on the record.

I know it is on the record.

This is a fascist culture.

I offer my condolences to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has clearly had a bad day. It started with the Garda leaking information against him and he has now launched a vicious attack on one of the major offices of State, namely, that of the Information Commissioner. I can understand why he is feeling sore, but he would do us all a favour if he kept it to himself.

Section 5 is relatively innocuous, but there are some causes for concern in the way it operates. The section seeks to provide a mechanism whereby people can withdraw applications they have made. I know from experience that some Departments and certain individuals have a difficulty working within the Act and prefer to work outside it. I do not have a complaint about that, so long as we are getting full and frank information. It is acceptable for an official to request that one withdraws a formal request for all the information on a particular subject, in return for him or her supplying one with the specific information one wants.

The same applies to certain Departments, which prefer to work outside the limiting context of parliamentary questions, such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Some Departments also prefer one to withdraw FOI requests and deal with them outside the scope of the Act. However, I would not like to see officials bringing pressure to bear on individuals and telling them that if they apply for information outside the scope of the Act, they will be responded to more quickly and efficiently. This will result in people feeling obliged to withdraw formal applications in circumstances where they might get a fuller picture if they left them in the system.

With respect, this is an entirely reasonable section. It prevents unnecessary work by civil servants if someone, for whatever reason, decides to withdraw a request. It would be wrong if someone was pressured into withdrawing applications and ended up with less information, but one cannot provide for every informal eventuality. We must not waste too much time on this part of the Bill. I would prefer us to debate the more substantive sections. There are real things to debate, illuminate and clarify and the sooner we deal with them, the better.

I am taken with the reasonable nature of what Senator Mansergh has said. Would that it were so. I thought it entirely reasonable that, to help the House, I produced a series of amendments which I saw as crucially important, given that they flowed from the view of the most important officer in this part of the work of the State. I thought they would raise reasonable issues which it would be helpful to discuss and I thought it unreasonable that I did not get to do that. Decisions have been taken that make it impossible for me to do my work as I see it and this is utterly unreasonable.

I wish we could have a reasonable approach. Perhaps the Acting Chairman will tell me if he is prepared to intervene with the Cathaoirleach in order that my amendments may be taken tomorrow. It is not an unreasonable—

The Senator seems to have a particular concentration on asking me questions which he knows I cannot answer.

Given that a new approach of reasonableness is descending on the House I would be all for it – it is the nature of the way I do business. Will Senator Mansergh support me in getting into the meat of these issues? This is crucial to the debate. I know from cruel experience that if one is seen to be easily dismissed, one will continue to be treated as a doormat. I need to make a statement saying that we have been treated in an unacceptable manner in recent days. We must make our position known and those on the Government benches will have to understand that.

We recognise that decisions are being taken from on high and dumped on people who are being left to carry them.

Acting Chairman

I seem to have heard this before.

I am saying this in answer to Senator Mansergh's request for reasonableness. I would hate to be misunderstood.

It is important that we hear the Minister of State's view on the document published today by the Information Commissioner. Does he find it outrageous that the senior officer of the State should have made this available to us to facilitate debate? Does he find it outrageous that the senior officer of the State who is charged, more than anybody else, with the implementation of and the workings of this Act, would take the trouble to help Members of the Oireachtas with information, a commentary and views that would help us come to a conclusion? While I find this to be helpful, it seems to reflect a view of Government that such information is dangerous in the hands of mere public representatives. We are entering a new era if this is the case and it is something we need to worry about.

I hope Government Senators would worry about this as much as I do. I do not feel comfortable in adopting moral positions because I know my flaws and would be afraid others might start mentioning them too often. If the State feels threatened by this, or feels we should not have a report of this nature, then I would be very worried about the viewpoints in which this legislation is rooted.

I would not want another Minister to be led into temptation. In that respect, I am glad he is far away and unable to respond to the Senator's point. I hope we can get over this section as quickly as we can. We must ask ourselves what is the best use of the limited time the Seanad has to discuss this Bill. Is it best used to discuss questions of substance, or is it, to use the Senator's words, best used to discuss questions that are "apparently innocuous"?

It looked like one of the extraordinary omissions in the 1997 Act that no mechanism for the withdrawal of a request was in place. As we all know, much horse trading went on. One would receive a telephone call from the Department saying that information would be given to a person more quickly if he or she would withdraw the request. Certain Departments have been extremely facilitating in this regard. Senator McDowell mentioned the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Not only did it provide information under the Freedom of Information Act, it had a special section that encouraged Members to withdraw parliamentary questions on the basis that one would receive the information within a day or two rather than the mandatory four or five days.

It looks good and seems sensible to put the mechanism in place, yet by enshrining this in legislation the danger is that it could lead to intimidation. A Department could say that if one did not withdraw a request, it would drag out the process interminably. While there are upsides and downsides to this, the measure seems sensible.

Acting Chairman

I thank the Senator for speaking on the section.

I am delighted that Senator Higgins has come to accept that this section is sensible and should be included in the Bill. With the advice given to the Opposition by the NUJ, I am not sure if a separate bible is being provided.

What advice is the Senator referring to?

They are saying legal provision comes into effect to allow applications to withdraw freedom of information requests before they are completed and this was done informally in any case. I will not labour the point.

While Senator O'Toole made the point that the document published by the commissioner at around 4 p.m. today made no reference to the Bill before the House, it obviously does.

Do I have to go through this again? I said the amendments were based on the assessment of the principal Act. The Senator kept saying the other and is saying it again now. Nobody other than he is saying this.

The observations also refer to the Bill before the House.

One section does.

That is not within the remit of the commissioner. The original legislation stated the remit of the commissioner was to refer to and recommend changes to the original Act and not a Bill before this House. This is a point of clarification.

Does the Senator support the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in reprimanding the commissioner?

We made the point earlier today. The Houses are quite separate, as the Senator knows. I commend Senator Higgins for accepting that this is a reasonable amendment. I recommend that it be accepted by the House without further debate.

The purpose of this section is to provide for an amendment to section 7 of the principal Act. It provides that a member of the public can withdraw a request, as set out in section 5 of the Bill. This is in line with provisions in section 14(8) and 34(5) in the principal Act whereby a member of the public may withdraw an application for internal or external review by the Information Commissioner. This amendment also provides for the head of a public body to notify a member of public in writing that the request has been withdrawn. A substantial number of freedom of information requests are withdrawn and are reported as such for statistical purposes.

I would hate to let what Senator Leyden said stand unchallenged. Section 39 of the principal Act refers to what we are discussing. It reads, "The Commissioner may prepare and publish commentaries on the practical application and operation of the provisions, or any particular provisions, of this Act." We are discussing this in amending the principal Act. That it is coming in the guise of a Bill is relevant, I am sure, but should not preclude the commissioner from making a comment. I do not accept that he can be precluded on the basis that he cannot speak on a Bill but can speak on a report. The commissioner is doing what he is entitled to do. I presume the difficulty is a reflection of his exclusion from the assessment. I do not know what the difficulty is and do not know the relationship between the commissioner and the Government.

This proves again that if the House had been given the opportunity to discuss the issues I wished to table by way of amendment then we would not have these difficulties. Senator Leyden would have much less difficulty and I am sure he would have agreed with a certain number of them. I have no inclination to be co-operative in dealing with this as I have found myself being ruled out on, I believe, unfair and inequitable grounds. I have been told the ruling applied to me will not apply to other legislation that comes before the House.

Government Members obviously believe that Opposition Members can be treated this way. Next week, when the Leader asks to take three or four amendments to the Order of Business I will seek a vote on each one until I feel I have expiated the way I have been treated tonight. This is my only way of ensuring I am listened to and not tossed aside and treated as nothing. My difficulty is the lack of equity in the approach.

I have refrained from commenting on the debate so far. I listened to the comments on the report before us, although I am not aware of what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, said, aside from what was mentioned here. However, the commissioner has overstepped his remit. The Act—

Under the appropriate section?

—clearly states, under the appropriate section, that the remit of the commissioner is to publish commentaries on the Act's practical application. It goes on to state he can bring forward, in relation to reviews and decisions following reviews—

Acting Chairman

This is not relevant to the section.

If other Members have been allowed to express their views, I beg the Chair's indulgence to do likewise for one minute.

Acting Chairman

I am simply pointing out that it is not relevant to the section.

We have to be careful in what we are doing. This report, at this time, plays into the hands of certain people for use in this debate. We should look beyond this. Members of the Oireachtas are elected to legislate and Governments are elected to govern. The job of those employed in positions such as that of the Information Commissioner is to act within the confines of legislation, not to comment on proposed legislation. We should be extremely careful. What springs to mind listening to this debate is George Orwell's novel. We should think carefully about what we are doing. I support and endorse the criticisms made in the other House.

Acting Chairman

Is the section agreed to?

In response to Senator Minihan, it would be most unfair to the House—

Acting Chairman

I will allow the Senator to comment but we cannot have a repetitive debate on the report. Members must deal with the Bill.

Yes. The House should find in favour of this public office holder who has a duty to both Houses of the Oireachtas and merely pointed out that he is doing his duty under section 39 of the Act.

He is not.

He elaborates on this. I have no wish to delay the House because the Chair has been reasonable so far.

Senator Minihan is entitled to his view with which I disagree. We are talking about the application of the Act and he is entitled to say what he said. I am careful, too, about the connection between the various areas of government. However, I have seen the Information Commissioner take brave steps in recent times. When dealing with the Revenue Commissioners, for example, he took a strong stand in favour of a group of widows who did not have a strong voice on their behalf. He took a brave and courageous stand for which perhaps he is not popular in Government circles. I want him to know that there is support for and recognition of the good work he is doing.

The Minister of State gave the example of the newspaper and the journalist. What if one of them wants to withdraw the information request and the other does not? This is the key element of the section.

That is where there is a legal problem.

How is it to be resolved?

That is the practical problem that could arise.

It is a practical problem.

There might be three people seeking the information as well as the situation outlined by Senator Paddy Burke. It is a practical problem and we need to know what would happen in such a situation. What type of determination would be made? Would the information be made available or would the request be subject to withdrawal across the board?

Senator O'Toole made a comment in relation to the commissioner. We are not impugning in any way the integrity—

Acting Chairman

We have established everybody's position on this matter ad nauseam.

Senator O'Toole made the point that the commissioner was courageous. We agree. I do not question the integrity or ability of the commissioner. We are simply dealing with this report and its relevance to the Bill before the House.

Acting Chairman

Senator Paddy Burke asked a question relevant to the section.

Senator Paddy Burke is pertinent as ever.

If the person who signed the request puts in a request to withdraw it, he or she will be entitled to withdraw it.

Does that not answer the first question? The legal owner of the information is the person who signed the request.

No. We are not talking about ownership of the information, we are talking about the request to get the information, which is different.

Is the Minister of State saying there is a difference between the requester and the owner?

Is that not where the argument would be between, for example, the newspaper and the journalist?

That is what the Minister of State is saying. However, if it does not apply to this section and there is no difficulty, how could there have been a difficulty earlier? The name on the bottom of the letter is the person we are discussing. That is the point we made at the beginning but the Minister of State said it was not the case.

Only a natural person can make a request to withdraw; a body corporate cannot.

We established that at the beginning when the Minister of State said he would not accept the definition of a person under the interpretation section of the Bill. Let us suppose the editor of a newspaper says to a journalist: "I want you to get that information for me and the newspaper." The journalist writes seeking the information and it comes to him or her from the Department. However, it has gone to the newspaper. How does that change matters?

In this case, the person who made the request is asking to withdraw it. He or she is not getting any information. As he or she is the individual who has requested the information, it is he or she who would put in the request to withdraw the original request.

In other words, the Minister of State is saying it does not matter that the person was operating on behalf of a corporation or otherwise. The Minister of State will just deal with the name on the letter. That is the argument we made earlier.

No, the ownership of the information is a different issue.

That is what we are trying to establish. Is it now owned by the person whose name is at the bottom of the letter?

That is where there is the legal difficulty.

There is much ambiguity in this. However, the kernel of the issue in sections 2 and 5 is whether it is the newspaper that wants to withdraw the request or the person who originally sought the information. A newspaper cannot seek the information because somebody's name has to be put down on its behalf. I presume that when one puts in a freedom of information request, somebody's name is attached to it in the first instance. Who would own the information afterwards? The Minister of State is saying only the person whose name is on the request has leave to withdraw it. I am more confused now than I was when we were dealing with section 2. I do not know who owns the information.

I am not commenting on who owns the information. With regard to this section, the person who made the request has the authority to withdraw it.

Question put.

Brennan, Michael.Callanan, Peter.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony.Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Lydon, Don.MacSharry, Marc.

Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Rourke, Mary.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Kate.Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

Bannon, James.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Coonan, Noel.Feighan, Frank.Finucane, Michael.

Henry, Mary.McDowell, Derek.Norris, David.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators Henry and O'Toole.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

There is a substantive issue at stake in section 6 which deserves serious attention. This section is technically worded and takes time to get to grips with, but it is worthwhile doing so. This is one of those sections that could be used – although whether it is intended to be used or otherwise is another matter – to pull down the veil on a great deal of information that should properly be available to the public.

The normal procedure for securing the release of information is that one makes a request which is either granted or denied. In the event that one is not given the information requested, under most sections there is an obligation on the person refusing it to provide reasons for doing so. On those occasions where there is a public interest test, there is an obligation on the Secretary General or whoever is making the decision to tell one why it is not in the public interest to give one the particular information requested. That is a very important guideline and provision which gives a certain amount of security to people making requests. It ensures at least that proper consideration is given to requests because a reason must be given for a request being refused.

Under the 1997 Act there are four sections where there is no obligation on the person making the decision to give a reason or disclose whether the information requested exists. In essence, it is a neither confirm nor deny response. The reasoning behind this is relatively obvious. However, there is a problem with this type of provision because it is not possible to make a serious appeal if one does not know that the information exists in the first instance. It is not possible to test whether something is in the public interest if one is not being told whether such information exists. I understand that some of the existing provisions – such as those relating to security in Northern Ireland, international affairs, etc. – are already governed by the type of neither confirm nor deny response to which I refer.

I have no idea why the Bill seeks to extend the circumstances in which one can be refused information or why there is no obligation to explain the reason for such refusal or to tell one whether information relating to the category in which one is interested exists. The categories to which it is being extended relate to commercially sensitive information, information given in confidence to a Department of State or to a body that is covered by the Act and personal information.

To take the example of the category of information obtained in confidence, as it is termed in the Act, the relevant section in the principal Act states that the head of a Department should refuse to grant information if the information had been given in confidence to a Department of State. It also states that if the head of a Department decides to refuse to grant information, he or she must set out the reasons, in the public interest, that he or she made that refusal. In effect, by allowing a head of a Department to give a neither confirm nor deny response, it will not be necessary – certainly it will not be open to independent scrutiny – for the head of a Department to decide to set out why he or she is making a particular decision or to what the public interest test that has been applied amounts. In many cases, it could amount to virtually nothing.

I will provide an example in respect of information given in confidence. If a person makes a representation to the Department of Finance seeking a particular measure in the Finance Bill or in the budget, it would be normal practice for the Department to disclose that information, regardless of whether it was given to it in confidence. That would be good practice and I suspect it is the normal practice in a Department. However, it could be argued by the individual who made the representation that he or she never intended that it would be known to the public and, in many cases, this would not be the case. The deciding officer has discretion to allow that information enter the public arena in the public interest and, in most instances, we would all agree that it is in the public interest.

If we agree to this extension of the neither confirm nor deny provision, it will not be necessary to do any of that. It will not be necessary for the head of a Department or the person making the decision to set out why he or she chose not to release information and I suspect that a good deal less information will be released because none of us would know whether it was there in the first instance. There will be an option for the Department of Finance, in this particular case, to close off the information by neither confirming nor denying that a representation was made because that is the easiest option. There might be circumstances in which the Department would be tempted to actively seek to conceal such information.

I have an open mind in respect of commercially sensitive information. I refer here to information relating to semi-State bodies. While I do not want commercially sensitive information that would be of use to competitors of, for example, Aer Lingus, to be in the public arena, it is in our interests, given that these are publicly owned companies, to know a certain amount about their activities. The discretion to release such information in the public interest should be retained. While I appreciate that this section is not being deleted, it will be unenforceable in circumstances where the deciding officer can have the option of neither confirming nor denying whether the information exists in the first instance.

The third area into which this is being extended is the area of personal information and this relates directly to the release of personal information to third parties. At present the general presumption is that if I make a request for records which contain personal information about someone else, normally I will be refused, but there is discretion on the part of the head of section or the person making the decision to release that information if he considers it in the public interest to do so. The exercise of that discretion will be unnecessarily and immediately curtailed if we bring in the provision in the first part of this amending section.

There is a second part to this section but I will leave it at that for continuity of thought.

The purpose of the section is to ensure that in cases of a refusal to confirm or deny the existence or non-existence of a record, the provisions of sections 19, 20 and 21 of the Bill are invoked. Public bodies are not obliged to disclose the existence or non-existence of such records in a notification to a requester.

This amendment is consequential on amendments proposed to sections Nos. 19, 20 and 21. It deals with situations where the mere acknowledgement of the existence of a record would reveal sensitive information. As the Senator said, it covers personal information, information obtained in confidence and commercially sensitive information. An example would be medical records, where merely acknowledging the existence of a record could reveal sensitive personal information – for example, a requester asking for all records held on a third party by a hospital. It is obvious that it could be harmful even for the hospital to reveal it holds records.

There is a public interest test in the new refusal to confirm or deny provisions. Before one can refuse to confirm or deny the existence of records under the three sections the decision-maker will be obliged to consider the public interest.

My difficulty is that it is impossible to know whether the head actually considers the public interest or not. In effect this cannot be appealed as one does not know that the information was withheld. If the response one gets neither confirms nor denies that there was information there, then one is not really in a position to appeal it and obviously one cannot scrutinise in any way how the public interest provision weighs with the person who made the decision. We should be very slow to go down this road because it allows something very close to a class exemption. We have already given class exemptions to the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform on pretty much everything they do, as they are effectively allowed to neither confirm nor deny that they hold particular information and are therefore not open to scrutiny.

We are now bringing this provision into three other areas and I make these points so trenchantly because it is not at all clear to me why we need to do so in the three areas set out in the Bill – third party information, information in confidence and commercially sensitive information. Surely it is sufficient to allow the current position, where the deciding officer can use discretion on where the public interest lies rather than a provision which neither confirms nor denies.

To address one point made by Senator McDowell, we should operate on the assumption that public servants, according to their lights, will administer the vast majority of cases with integrity rather than on any other supposition.

Senator McDowell gave the example of a budget submission containing commercially sensitive information. I find it hard to conceive of a budget submission looking for a change in the Finance Act that would be commercially sensitive and therefore could not be released. One is dealing with general legislation and I am not sure if that is a real danger.

Regarding the public interest, the Information Commissioner can review the refusal.

This is where my difficulty lies. It is almost impossible for someone to appeal a refusal of information if they have not been told that information exists in the first place. If I go to the Department of Finance looking for these budget submissions and the Department neither confirms nor denies that there are such things, how can I test whether or not a public interest test has been carried out? How can I test what went through the Secretary General's mind in refusing my application if he is not telling me he had information in the first place?

Go to the Information Commissioner.

How could one mount an appeal in those circumstances, when one does not know what has been refused?

One can go to the Information Commissioner.

But one does not know what has been refused. Surely when people are making a decision to appeal or not they must have some basis on which to appeal; that means they must have some basis to assess the decision that was made. If they do not know what has been refused to them or they are not even told they have been refused particular information, then they may just be told they are getting nothing.

If the request is refused one can go to the Information Commissioner and ask him to follow it up.

Let us come at this from a different angle, as I am getting nowhere with this approach.

There must surely be an onus on Government to justify the extension into these three additional areas. The Minister of State has said nothing yet which would justify the extension of the "neither confirm nor deny" provision into these three areas. Why is this being done?

We have given the three reasons – the disclosure of sensitive information might be injurious if it became available to a third party, whether that party is a company or individual. Information given in confidence might be injurious to the parties which gave that information if it became available.

It is not the information but the existence of the information.

Or the existence.

The point is that no convincing argument is being put to answer Senator McDowell's points. If one reflects on what Senator Mansergh said about the need for certainty, accuracy and lack of ambivalence, this provision is full of shades and there is no way one can see it operating to help those who will be seeking information. It pulls another cloak over this operation and is another regressive step. Senator McDowell and I accept the Minister of State's point about commercial interests and one can see the reasonableness of dealing with these issues, but it can also be dealt with another way. The way we are going into this creates a puzzle within a puzzle and one gets lost in the middle.

The "neither confirm nor deny" provision is an easy way out and will not only be used, it will be overused. It is like saying that certain sections of the Offences Against the State Act would not be used; it would be worthwhile looking at that again, as such provisions may have a different intention than they had when put together. It would be easier to use this option than to make someone get information together for two weeks if that were necessary and that is understandable. It is not acceptable but it is understandable. This provision makes it possible for that to happen. It will be the easiest option.

I cannot see how this would be acceptable. Are the people who put these proposals together committed to more access or less access to information? Every proposal closes down access. Where does that leave us? I cannot connect this with the articulate points made by Senator Mansergh about the culture of wanting to make freedom of information provisions work. I know freedom of information officers who are very committed to what they are doing but they will be implementing the law as they find it. What we are doing is stepping backwards and closing this down. There is a change of culture here.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Acting Chairman (Mr. Kitt): When is it proposed to sit again?
Dr. Mansergh: Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.
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