Vol. 172 No. 1
The Order of Business is No. 1, Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Report and Final Stages. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. until 2 p.m.
I would like to make clear that the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, will be present in the House after the Order of Business for the debate on No. 1. He will, however, have to leave at about 4 p.m. as he has to travel to Brussels.
I am looking for clarity from the Leader in respect of No. 1. I do not doubt that she is aware that a statement was issued yesterday by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service which "strongly recommends, as a matter of urgency, that sufficient time be allowed for further limited hearings to be held, as important areas have been identified in the legislation which the joint committee agrees will need further significant amendment".
Given the fact that members – both Senators and Deputies – of the joint committee have given all-party support to the motion, it would be premature to advance to Report Stage when we have not yet seen the significant Government amendments that have been promised. The committee wishes to continue with its hearings before the Dáil considers the legislation and it would be a gross denial of the constitutional position of the House if we were to take Report Stage today. The committee is continuing its work on behalf of the House, which has often heard speeches about the importance of committee work.
The joint committee should be permitted to conclude its hearings and I ask the Leader to reconsider the Order of Business in light of the unanimous motion supported by her colleagues, my colleagues and others. If it was acceptable to freeze Report Stage of the Bill last week, it is again acceptable to do so. There is no reason that we should not instead take statements on Iraq in order that all groups in the House could present their views on the matter to the Minister for Foreign Affairs or one of the Ministers of State from his Department. It would be extremely wrong to proceed with Report Stage, given the timely intervention of the joint committee in the form of its unanimous motion.
We need to examine the ordering of our business in the context of Report Stage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003. Given the joint committee's unanimous agreement that the Bill requires further significant amendment and the need to ensure the Bill is passed by both Houses by 18 April, the Government should agree to make and accept amendments today. If it does not, we should not waste time by taking Report Stage now. The Government should indicate whether it will either bring forward Report Stage amendments today or whether we can return to the matter when the Bill has been considered by the Lower House. I am a realist and I understand that amendments must be taken. There is no point in our spending the day dealing with issues to which we will be obliged to return.
The joint committee has spent two days considering this matter and has adopted a position on the matter. I ask the Leader to recognise that fact. It seems practical that we should defer Report Stage and take it next Tuesday morning, if necessary, in order that the Bill can be sent to the Dáil in its proper form, or that the Government should indicate what it intends to do with the legislation. The Government has indicated that it intends to introduce amendments and we should be informed as to their likely content.
There are disturbing reports in this morning's newspapers about a garda in Portlaoise who received compensation for doing his job properly. As the public service vehicles officer, he discovered serious problems with school buses which were being approved for transportation use. When he brought this matter to the attention of certain people, he was bullied and had to leave his job. There are many 25 and 30 year old buses in operation throughout the country, but until now we had been led to believe that age was not an issue because these vehicles are properly maintained. This is a major issue and I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Science to come before the House to reassure Members that checks and balances are in place to ensure children being transported to and from school are safe.
In October 2001 a large number of letters arrived in Leinster House. They were in a large, addressed envelope which was sealed but not franked. However, the letters it contained were franked. Because of the anthrax scare they were taken away by the Garda, opened, kept in its possession and used as evidence to charge a member of the force with a breach of discipline. I understand the charge has been dropped which is the reason I feel free to raise the matter now. I raise it in public because if I was do so in private, I would be liable to the Garda wanting to sequester my telephone records to find out my source. I have to do it this way to ensure any communication I had with a person involved in the matter is privileged.
My colleague, Senator O'Meara, was cited in evidence because the letter to her was examined by a Garda handwriting expert who said it was the handwriting of the garda accused of a breach of discipline. Where did the Garda Síochána get the authority to take letters to Members of the Oireachtas and bring them to Garda headquarters for use as evidence in a disciplinary hearing against a member of the force without the knowledge of Members of these Houses? I want to have the matter clarified.
Before I come to today's Order of Business, I want to mention Rachel Corrie who was deliberately killed by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza last week. She was an American peace activist who sat in front of the bulldozer and eyewitness accounts make perfectly clear it was no accident. If it had happened in Baghdad, the world would have been screaming in outrage, quite rightly.
Hear, hear.
It was an outrage against humanity. As long as such incidents happen, there is no moral basis for those who claim to be defending decent values in Baghdad. How can an ally of the United States tolerate the deliberate murder of an innocent peace activist? Accidents can happen and war is rough but this was murder in regard to which we should be prepared to take a moral position. Regrettably, it appears we do not understand the need to take such positions. Murder was perpetrated by what claims to be a democratic government. It is our duty in this House and every other forum to condemn murder.
There are no Government amendments to today's business. I note what was said by my two colleagues about the decision of the Oireachtas committee, which I also welcome. The Opposition in this House is willing to accommodate the Government on the issue of Cabinet papers, in respect of which there is an 18 April deadline. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to the effect that all Stages of No. 3, the Labour Party's Freedom of Information (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, be taken before No. 1. We would agree to the removal from it of all clauses except the one which provides for non-disclosure of Cabinet papers for six years, which would give us 12 months in which to look at these issues. It would leave the Government's position on Cabinet papers untouched and enable us to move on and have a dispassionate discussion about the practicalities of freedom of information, which is what we need. We must reflect what is now the broad consensus of all parties in both Houses of the Oireachtas. Let us deal with the Government's immediate concern, with which I do not agree, but we are prepared to be reasonable. Let us extend the period to six years and allow the calm, dispassionate investigation which began at the joint committee to continue.
I support Senator Brian Hayes and the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service which has strongly recommended that significant amendments are necessary. Given that this is the view of the all-party committee, I am sure the Minister for Finance and the Government would wish to be reasonable and accept it. I urge the Leader to do likewise and look forward to hearing her response to the points made by Senators Brian Hayes, O'Toole and Ryan. Perhaps Report Stage should be frozen or the Minister for Finance will introduce amendments.
I would like to raise the issue of waste, particularly the waste of time. It will be ridiculous to spend time on a topic that is clearly going to change. If we spend time on this Bill, no result will stem from it. I hope the Leader will respond to my concern about wasting time by accepting one of the amendments to the Order of Business or come to another solution.
There are also issues of waste at the Mater Hospital. This probably applies also to every other hospital. Due to budget constraints a number of public service consultants are not working. While being paid, they are standing around with nothing to do. This is happening at the same time that the State is sending public patients to private consultants or abroad for operations. This is ridiculous. I ask the Leader to bring the Minister for Health and Children to the House to debate this waste of public money. This is only one example of what is happening in many hospitals. I will raise this as an Adjournment Matter next week, if necessary.
I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Ryan. I know the Leader has made an attempt to accommodate the many concerns raised by Members on this side of the House – deferral of Report Stage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill was an attempt to do this. That the Minister for Finance is prepared to come to the House today is due in no small part to the Leader's efforts. However, in the light of the findings of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service it would be wrong to proceed with Report Stage of the Bill. Presumably, the Dáil will make substantial amendments to it and it will return to the Seanad for rubber-stamping when we will not have an opportunity to debate them in any real way.
We have put substantial time and effort into this legislation and the least we are due is the opportunity to peruse Government amendments when they are brought forward. The alternative is that the Government accept all Opposition amendments, particularly those of the Labour Party which reflect the views of the Information Commissioner and would probably go a long way towards meeting the concerns of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service.
I recently attended the St. Patrick's Day parade in New York and compliment all those involved. Many other Members also attended.
Some people have all the luck.
I ask the Leader to bring to attention my concerns about the exclusion of gays and lesbians from the parade. This portrays the wrong image of Ireland. We are very proud of our equality legislation. The slogan, "Brits out of Ireland", was also used in the parade. This is not appropriate to the peace process.
That is not relevant to today's Order of Business.
The Ancient Order of Hibernians is a Roman Catholic only organisation from which the Grand Marshal of the parade was selected.
We have no control over matters in New York.
I ask the Leader to bring this to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I hope it will promote an image of a more progressive and inclusive Ireland abroad.
While I had not expected to address this subject, I thank Senator Browne for raising it. The Government Ministers who attend these parades in America should make their displeasure clear. It is astonishing that these people in America, who think they are so Irish by excluding gay Irish people, ignore the fact that parades in Dublin and Cork have welcomed them for years and given them prizes.
As I explained to Senator Browne, we have no control over parades in America.
I understand that. However, we have some moral influence on our Ministers and we can ask the Leader to request Ministers to raise the issue with people when they are marching with them. The Cathaoirleach and Senator Browne are correct in that it was shamefully determined by a court in New York that the parade is controlled by a sectarian organisation which maintains it as an exclusively Roman Catholic festival. That is a pity and it is a contradiction that should be resolved.
This is not the most important issue before the House. It appears, and is widely believed, that no amendments will be taken on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003 today. I hope that is not true.
I am astonished that the House, which feels it is relevant to the people, should have spent so little time and given so little mention to the one matter that is uppermost in people's minds across the globe, namely, the Anglo-American attack on Iraq, which is taking place as we speak. It is taking place with our collaboration because we are allowing planes to refuel at Shannon airport and fly through Irish airspace. This is despite the fact that Austria, a neutral country – as Ireland claims to be – has denied the US and UK the right to—
We are talking about freedom of information, yet Senator Callanan from Cork is trying to stop me speaking. That is the kind of freedom of information they like in Cork. Perhaps it is the kind of freedom of information Mr. Bush would like.
The Senator should address his remarks through the Chair.
The Goebbels-like process of disinformation has already begun. Like many others, I watched television news reports last night. We were informed that three-quarters of the Iraqi army had surrendered, whereas only 17 soldiers had done so. We were then told that Tariq Aziz had been shot trying to escape and that Saddam had been killed. All of these reports were untrue.
We cannot discuss these matters in detail.
I formally propose an amendment to the Order of Business that instead of No. 1 we take the item in the name of the Independent Senators concerning the situation in Iraq. I believe it is No. 25—
The AOH will not listen to the Senator now.
— on the Order Paper. A number is not a speech. The Senator may be numerically challenged, but a number is not a speech. It is not even a figure of speech.
I support calls for a debate on housing and, in particular, the disabled persons housing scheme and the essential repairs grant. The health board housing aid scheme for the elderly has been substantial and successful. Some 1,200 individual projects were carried out by the Western Health Board last year. The scheme has many critics but it should be looked at as a basis for improvements that can be made in relation to housing repairs schemes.
I support calls to have statements on Iraq today. To do so would be an important and timely intervention on the part of the House.
Will the Leader ask the Tánaiste to come before the House to discuss the recommendations of the task force on life-long learning? A report launched yesterday highlights the fact that by 2006 there will be a massive increase in the older section of the population. I have always believed that people should not be put on the scrap-heap when they reach 60 years of age. They have much to offer and have great expertise. In the rest of Europe, many elderly people are involved in consultancy work. We should start a serious initiative to underline that we need all the expertise we can get, regardless of the age of the people who provide it.
There was a man from Donegal who retired at the age of 60. He went to the shop each day with his dog to buy the newspaper. One day, however, the dog started to take the paper home. The man died the following day. At the gates of Heaven, he asked St. Peter why he had been taken.
I do not think this is—
We must hear the punch-line. It is not fair.
St. Peter replied that the man was no longer needed because even the dog could bring the paper home for him. This is an important point.
We missed the punch-line.
I formally second Senator Norris's amendment to the Order of Business. There is a certain air of unreality when we discuss debating or even raising issues other than the war in Iraq on the Order of Business today. It would make the Seanad somewhat more relevant if we could debate that matter, whatever people's views on it, rather than anything else today.
I agree with other Senators that it is a waste of time to debate the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill today, particularly when it is to be considered further by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. I also agree that we should be debating the war on Iraq today. I am glad we are debating it tomorrow, but it is really an afterthought. As Senator Ross said, if we want to be thought of as relevant, we should be scheduling our business in a different way.
It can still be relevant tomorrow.
As is happening in the Dáil, we should be giving the war in Iraq priority today.
I have never had the privilege of attending the St. Patrick's day parade in New York, but I believe it is a spectacular event. It would be in order to ask the Leader to ask the Government to convey our good wishes to the Ancient Order of Hibernians. That organisation has been a good friend to this country for many years and the parade has also been a great shop window for Ireland.
It has been a great disgrace on several occasions.
Its members have also been great hosts for Irish visitors.
They are sectarian, homophobic, narrow—
Rubbish.
It is not rubbish.
Order, please. Senator Ó Murchú, without interruption.
I would not have been allowed to take part. That is the kind of freedom—
The Senator would have been permitted to take part. I understand now what Senator Norris means by freedom of speech. I now want to finish what I am saying.
Hear, hear.
I have no doubt the Senator will do so.
We should convey our gratitude and appreciation to the organising committee of the parade and to the AOH itself.
Not mine.
Finally, I share some of Senator Norris's concerns regarding the war in Iraq and I look forward to making a contribution tomorrow morning.
I join colleagues in calling for a debate on Iraq today. It is urgent that we discuss this matter as soon as possible.
Some Members may not be aware – although I did make an effort to obtain the information for them – that there will be a debate on Iraq tomorrow which will take the form of a resolution. I have not yet received the wording of the resolution, but it will be sent to everyone later today. The debate will be as relevant tomorrow – if not more so – as it would have been today.
Senator Brian Hayes drew attention to the statement of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003. He also wondered whether any amendments would be introduced in the House. The Minister is coming before the House later and I know that, as always, he will give a good account of himself. Senator O'Toole joined Senator Hayes in expressing concern about the work of the joint committee. I saw some of last week's hearings, although I did not see yesterday's, and it seems that the committee has done very good work. It is, however, the Minister, the Government and Members of the Houses who have the power to make amendments and not the committees, whose job is to put forward proposals and wait to see whether they are accepted. Although it cannot make amendments, the committee has done terrific work and its members deserve praise.
Senator O'Toole asked the Government to indicate the proposed changes and I hope that will happen. He cited 18 April as a deadline for passage of the Bill but, in fact, the Dáil will go into recess on Thursday, 10 April. He also mentioned the PSV officer who did his job to ensure the safety of school buses and asked for the Minister for Education and Science to come into the House to discuss the issue, a debate that would be worthwhile.
Senator Ryan asked about the batch of letters that arrived in Leinster House. I received one of them, although I do not know how. Some got one while others did not. I remember it because it was long and detailed. We will endeavour to find out what happened, how they were taken away and then used as evidence. The Senator also raised the issue of Rachel Corrie who was killed by a bulldozer in the Gaza Strip. It is always necessary to highlight such events and continue to condemn them in the strongest fashion. The Senator also suggested the ingenious idea that we take the Labour Party's Freedom of Information (Amendment) No. 2 Bill, stripping it to the six year proposal at its core. Senator O'Meara supported his proposal but that will not happen.
For one moment my hopes rose.
Senator Coghlan supported Senator Bryan Hayes on the postponement of Report Stage while Senator Quinn said today's debate was a waste of time because amendments would not be accepted. He also alleged that consultants were standing idle for reasons beyond their control.
Senator Browne, supported by Senator Norris, raised the issue of the St. Patrick's Day parade in New York which is organised by committees over which we have absolutely no control, mainly the Ancient Order of Hibernians, a fine organisation, and took issue with the fact that gays and lesbians were not allowed to march. They are allowed to march here – fair dues to them – and have every right to do so. Senator Ó Murchú wants us to convey our thanks to the AOH for the courtesy and hospitality afforded to those who travel to New York for the parade each year.
Senators Norris, Ross, Tuffy, McHugh and Feighan raised the crisis in Iraq, a very important matter on which we are holding a full debate tomorrow when the topic will get a fine airing. Senator Norris said misinformation was pouring out and he is right – every rumour has 40 legs. I hope the Senators will be present for statements tomorrow.
Senator McHugh called for the Tánaiste to come before the House to talk about life-long learning but the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera, is in charge of that agenda. I will invite her to discuss the matter in the House.
Senator Kitt called for a debate on housing for the elderly and the work of the Western Health Board. I will try to arrange such a debate.
Two amendments to the Order of Business have been proposed. I will deal with them in the order in which they were proposed. Amendment No. 1 is in the name of Senator Ryan. Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes.
Amendment put: "That all Stages of No. 3 be taken before No. 1."
Tá
|
Bradford, Paul.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Burke, Ulick.Coghlan, Paul.Feighan, Frank.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.McDowell, Derek. |
McHugh, Joe.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Terry, Sheila.Tuffy, Joanna. |
Níl
|
Bohan, Eddie.Brady, Cyprian.Callanan, Peter.Cox, Margaret.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Dooley, Timmy.Feeney, Geraldine.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Hanafin, John.Hayes, Brian.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony. |
Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Mooney, Paschal C.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.O'Rourke, Mary.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Jim.Walsh, Kate.White, Mary M.Wilson, Diarmuid. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators O'Meara and Tuffy; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.
Senator Norris has also proposed an amendment. Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes. I accept that the Leader is arranging for a debate tomorrow but it would be more relevant to the people who will be injured or killed, and the Irish people, if we had it today.
Amendment put: "That No. 25 be substituted for No. 1."
Tá
|
Bradford, Paul.Browne, Fergal.Burke, Paddy.Burke, Ulick.Coghlan, Paul.Feighan, Frank.Hayes, Brian.Henry, Mary.Higgins, Jim.McDowell, Derek. |
McHugh, Joe.Norris, David.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Phelan, John.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Terry, Sheila.Tuffy, Joanna. |
Níl
|
Bohan, Eddie.Brady, Cyprian.Callanan, Peter.Cox, Margaret.Daly, Brendan.Dardis, John.Dooley, Timmy.Feeney, Geraldine.Fitzgerald, Liam.Glynn, Camillus.Hanafin, John.Hayes, Maurice.Kenneally, Brendan.Kett, Tony. |
Kitt, Michael P.Leyden, Terry.Mansergh, Martin.Minihan, John.Mooney, Paschal C.Morrissey, Tom.Moylan, Pat.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.O'Rourke, Mary.Phelan, Kieran.Walsh, Jim.Walsh, Kate.White, Mary M.Wilson, Diarmuid. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Ross; Níl, Senators Minihan and Moylan.
