The Order of Business is No. 1, Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003 – Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m.; No. 2, earlier signature motion in respect of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2003, to be taken immediately without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, Finance Bill 2003 (Certified Money Bill) – Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, to conclude not later than 6 p.m.; No. 4, earlier signature motion in respect of the Finance Bill 2003 (Certified Money Bill), to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 3; and No. 15, motion No. 26, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. There will be a sos between 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
I am sure the Leader will join me in wishing the Information Commissioner, Mr. Murphy, every success in his retirement. I know there are more Members on the Government side of the House who are happier to see him retire than on this side. He has been a tremendous public official.
He has served the country with great distinction in recent years, particularly in recent months. While we all welcome the Government's appointment of Ms O'Reilly to the new post, we must ask the reason the appointment was not advertised. While the President appoints the Information Commissioner or Ombudsman, will the Leader inform us when the necessary resolution, which has to be put before both Houses, will come before this House? Is it normal that there would be no public advertisement of the post? It seems Ms O'Reilly, a very notable and distinguished journalist, was plucked from her career.
Yesterday the Government refused to indemnify Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin in respect of their upcoming High Court case against the ruling of the Morris tribunal. Does the Leader believe it would be useful and timely to hold a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to discuss this important new development? If so, when are we likely to hold it? In the light of the meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to support the case of the Senator and Deputy, the fact that the case is not receiving the proper financial support of the Government by way of indemnification leads to totally new circumstances. The committee should meet to discuss the issue and inform the House who will provide the necessary financial backing and indemnification. The case is not just being taken on the part of the Deputy and Senator but on behalf of the Houses of the Oireachtas because of a fundamental principle or right which we believe is enshrined in the Constitution.
Yesterday I asked for a rolling debate on Iraq. Although I had to attend a committee meeting, I looked at the Official Report and was very pleased with the Leader's response. She dealt comprehensively with the difficulty we have regarding information. However, she did not indicate that we would have the debate I requested. The House has an absolute moral responsibility to monitor the conflict, particularly in the light of what the Leader said yesterday about the information deficit and the great difficulty that the public and responsible, professional politicians like ourselves have in making up our minds on the real circumstances and in making political judgments on this basis.
We learned today of the bombing of the Iraqi national television station in Baghdad. The other day, the US complained about violations of the Geneva Convention. This is another one. The Iraqi television station is a civilian operation, part of the infrastructure. This is forbidden by the Geneva Convention.
Last night we were informed that there was an uprising in Basra. There is certainly some kind of commotion there. Coalition forces are mortaring it. The water supplies have been cut off. The inhabitants are drinking water polluted with sewage. There is some saline water which can be used for washing. Al-Jazeera television has a reporter inside—
Speech.
Yes, it is a speech and I make no apology. Those Senators should be ashamed of themselves for trying to silence me. Shame on you and your dirty Government and its collusion.
Hypocrite.
Senator Mansergh is a new boy in this House. He should learn to behave himself. He may have been a civil servant but he is not Leader of this House.
Speeches are not allowed on the Order of Business. I will give you some latitude.
I am making arguments in defence of my point and that is allowed every day. Since Al-Jazeera reports on this, will it too be bombed?
I would like provision for the rolling debate for which I have asked. In one television report I saw a British Army officer explaining: "We saw an Iraqi sitting there, whap he was taken out, whap our troops were in and whap 20 more Iraqis were gone with our zap squad." Is that the kind of war we want to continue with? I am calling for a rolling debate every week, if not every day, if we have any shame.
I join other Senators in saying that the new format of the Order Paper is a disgraceful example of environmental waste, particularly in a country with a waste crisis of unmanageable proportions. I gather the Leader made some reference to it. There are two pages wasted on the cover. This must add up to 800 pages produced every day. I do not recall discussion of these changes by any committee – I may have missed it. This is bad environmental practice.
The Leader is very good at eliciting information. Can she then find out from the Government and inform us if there is a list in the US Defence Department which puts Ireland in the coalition of the willing? The Government accepts the view of US intelligence services that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Perhaps then, if they believe that the US can be so wrong about our involvement in the coalition, they will develop scepticism about things that are far less proven. Everyone in Ireland and in Europe knows that we are in the coalition. The Government is the only one that does not know.
The events now occurring in Iraq have brought about a profound change in the way the world is ordered. Anyone who pretends otherwise is fooling themselves. This is the first time that two democracies – the US and the UK – have undertaken a "pre-emptive war". This marks a fundamental change in world values. It is something that threatens the way we look at the world – the way in which Éamon de Valera looked at it and how we now look at it. The Government walked us into this situation by pretending it would not happen, by hoping it would not happen. When it did happen the Government pretended we were not involved, but claimed at the same time that if non-involvement was demonstrated, it would be seen as a hostile act by the coalition. There should be a continuing debate on this crisis. With so much fiction and spinning in the reports we are receiving, we need to know the Department of Foreign Affairs judgment on this crisis on at least a weekly basis. I support Senator Norris in his request for this debate.
I rarely object to early signature motions, because there is usually a good reason for them. However, with the Finance Bill 2003, we are having to go around the provisions of the Constitution – legally I admit – because the Minister for Finance wanted to go to the Cheltenham Festival for a week.
That matter does not arise here.
Cheltenham Charlie delayed the Finance Bill 2003 to facilitate his attendance and his enthusiasm for horse racing, and now we have an early signature motion. This is a gross undermining of the spirit of the Constitution.
Order.
This is not the spirit in which the business of this House should be conducted.
Can we have a debate on crime levels? Figures published this morning showed an increase in the number of public order offences. This is not scaremongering. We are talking about increases of 50 and 60% in a year for some categories. If this trend continues, we will have uncontrollable streets. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should explain to the House how he proposes to solve the problem and listen to the wisdom of Members as to what else can be done.
It strikes me that some of the contributions to the Seanad have a far more detrimental effect on the forest than the two cover pages of the Order Paper. Members might reflect on that. It also appears to me that the Minister for Finance spends as much time in this House as some of the Senators. When he does attend, he also talks more sense.
Hear, hear.
We value Senator Dardis's contributions.
Senator Dardis, without interruption.
The situation in Iraq should be kept under review by the House. The Leader indicated that yesterday. It is a cliché to say that truth is the first casualty in war. Propaganda from this House would be just as useless as it is from any other quarter. It might be useful if a debate on the Iraq crisis concentrated on what we can do as a country. I welcome the Government's allocation of €5 million to humanitarian aid. We should concentrate on how best this can be used in minimising the civilian suffering in Iraq. I would welcome such a debate in the House with Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt.
There has been much discussion on road safety, the role of the Garda and speeding ministerial cars. The Minister for Transport should be asked about Bus Éireann's policy on speeding. When travelling on the Naas dual carriageway, I observed one Bus Éireann bus overtake me as I travelled at 60 mph. I also observed a bus travelling at night with no lights save its indicators flashing. What is Bus Éireann's attitude to road safety?
I read in the paper this morning that the Garda Síochána had detected 80,000 offences which were directly linked to alcohol. Could the Leader invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to discuss this issue of crime and under age drinking, which has got out of hand? I would like the Leader to ask the Minister today why he has not introduced the regulation under section 17 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 to provide that off-licences should label bottles and cans with their names. This regulation would be a means by which the Garda could track down the off-licence holders who are selling drink to under age customers.
Lest it be thought that everyone disapproves of this new cover for the Order Paper, I find it very neat.
It is a waste of money and detrimental to our environment.
I think neatness and tidiness have their place in our proceedings.
It is a waste of money and it is anti-environment.
Members of this House, regardless of how long they have been here, have the same rights as long-standing Members. I have exercised as much responsibility over the years as Senator Norris, and I do not believe histrionics on a daily basis have anything to contribute to debate.
I join the Leader of the Opposition in congratulating Ms Emily O'Reilly on her appointment as Ombudsman and Information Commissioner. It is pertinent that we were debating the Freedom of Information Bill last week. I am sure that she will show the same vigorous independence as the Minister who has appointed her. I also offer my best wishes to the retiring commissioner, Mr. Kevin Murphy, and thank him for his long career of public service. It should be remembered that he played a very important role in the early partnership agreements.
I too, ask the Leader if we could have a debate this week on the situation in Iraq. It is important to remember that the civilian casualties are not only people who are hit by bombs, shrapnel, bullets or even collapsing buildings. The hospitals there have pointed out the huge increase in the number of people attending with stress related conditions such as strokes and coronaries, and the dreadful plight of terrified children.
Regarding the Order Paper I wish that former Progressive Democrats Senator, Maureen Quill, were here because she was a great woman for pointing out the waste of paper in this House. She wanted us to request reports rather than receive them regularly in the post because she said in that way we were much more likely to pay attention to them. She would have had some very firm words about this which I consider to be a terrible waste of paper because it is gone at the end of the day.
I appreciate the Leader's comments of yesterday morning in regard to Iraq. They made me feel more comfortable. I support the call for a more regular debate on the situation there. We had a good debate in this House last week. It was very dignified and balanced and while many of us held differing views at least we could express them. I expressed my view that the war in Iraq is illegal, unjust and immoral.
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear.
I would much rather that we could express our views here than try to find our way through the fog of propaganda, coming from both sides, to which we are being exposed. I could not feel comfortable with the newspaper photograph of a defenceless Iraqi child with her limbs shattered by bombs. We in this House need to come together, irrespective of party support or affiliation, and work in a united way morally and politically. It is important because one cannot draw a line in the sand and say that is the end of the debate.
I admire Senator Norris for his tenacity and independence. We should be allowed to express our views because I am horrified and traumatised by this war and there are thousands of other people who feel the same way. It behoves us as legislators to give leadership at a time like this. That is why I request more regular debates than we have had on this issue.
A number of other speakers have touched on the issue I want to raise, namely the results of Operation Encounter. The Garda Commissioner set up this operation on 23 February 2002 to focus on drink related crime in different venues such as pubs, night clubs, and fast food outlets. It has highlighted a number of alarming statistics, not least that 25 people are assaulted every night in drink related crime. I ask the Leader of the House to summon the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to address this with due urgency.
The second issue is in relation to our €5 million humanitarian aid package. Does the Leader know whether this allocation was originally destined for another poor country? If that is the case, is it right that we should take €5 million from one poor country and spend it in Iraq cleaning up the mess left by the Americans?
I too join previous speakers in calling for a weekly debate on Iraq. There is no doubt that the different views held here and in the community have to be reflected and respected, and a debate would at least help to correct the selective inaccuracies being peddled by some. This is important for us and for the public.
There are two points that I would like the Leader to raise on my behalf. On several occasions I have raised the issue of the contract for the Cork School of Music, but despite having tabled it on the Adjournment and raising it in many different forms I have yet to receive an answer. The people of Cork are also awaiting an answer.
Applause is not allowed in the Visitors Gallery.
The Senator is obviously playing to the gallery.
I have no difficulty in again seeking a firm and direct answer.
The second point is even more worrying. Last week I raised an item on the Adjournment about the expansion of Cork Airport. Having been told that we would have a contract within three weeks, I heard within a few days that the deadline has been extended again. I would like a direct answer on that matter as it goes into another year.
The Senator is very welcome to the Opposition benches.
There are several speakers offering and the Order of Business has to conclude in six minutes. Reluctantly, I will have to exclude some if the Senators offering will not be brief.
I will be brief. I support Senator Norris's call for an urgent debate on the war in Iraq. As each day goes by it seems that the civilian population of Iraq becomes more and more a pawn in the conflict.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Children into the House as a matter of urgency next week to discuss the report of the task force on medical staffing because there are many hospitals experiencing great uncertainty about the proposed cutbacks and downgrading. I believe the Minister has that final report now but for some reason – obviously a political one – he is delaying its release. Could the Leader request the Minister to come in here to allay people's fears? Some of these fears may be unfounded but others may have serious consequences for many hospitals, particularly Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe, which is due to be downgraded.
I support the call for a debate on crime and the related issue of under age drinking. We have spoken of the Minister's role and that of the Garda, but we have not spoken of the responsibility of parents to monitor the behaviour of their children in relation to under age drinking. If we fail to adopt a community-spirited approach, we will not be successful in combating this problem. It is a disgrace and a cause of upset for the community in general.
I thank Senators on all sides for their expressions of solidarity and support for Deputy Howlin and me in our determination to refuse to be compelled to reveal our sources in regard to alleged Garda misconduct in Donegal. Yesterday's Government decision is a setback, not only from the perspective of potential punitive legal costs but also from the point of view of our collective determination to defend our constitutional right and duty to protect our sources. I would welcome a meeting of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges to discuss this matter as soon as possible. In particular, I thank Senators on the Government side for the endorsement, support and encouragement they have given us.
Hear, hear.
Senator Higgins's case is most important for both Houses and he should be supported.
I hope we are provided with another chance to pay tribute to the public service record of the Information Commissioner, Kevin Murphy. While I am not sure how the motion for the appointment of a new Ombudsman will be handled, I feel that Ms O'Reilly has the capacity to make an excellent Ombudsman. The choice of appointee is interesting and exciting.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to reflect on the propriety of allowing uniformed officers of the Defence Forces to pontificate on television with regard to a war in which we play no part? Such behaviour seems odd.
In welcoming Senator Minihan to this side of the House, I confuse matters further by complimenting the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, on his proactive work in the area of mental health. We must engage in ongoing debate on mental health. There is a correlation between the high level of mental ill-health and the lack of consultants and psychologists. Many consultants and psychologists work in affluent areas. While I welcome the Leader's positive attitude to the organisation of a debate on suicide, there is a broad range of mental health issues it is important to discuss. I welcome the call for a debate on the Iraqi war, which is very serious. The visit of Tony Blair to Washington today proves that he is panicking because he is worried about the post-war plans of President Bush.
I support Senator Norris's call for a debate on Iraq. This invasion of another country is illegal, immoral and unjust and I can think of nothing more obscene than the spending of $75 billion on destruction and mayhem.
I support the calls of Senators Norris and Ó Murchú for a debate on Iraq. I agree with Senator Ó Murchú's comments on the war and we should facilitate the Senator and other Government Members by holding a genuine and full debate which permits them to freely express their opinions through a vote. Members should not have to vote along party lines on this issue.
Hear, hear.
In The Irish Times today, I read that Mr. Kevin Murphy announced yesterday that he will step down as Information Commissioner, emphasising that his decision was taken before the recent controversy. He was 65 last year. It is important to record the point in the interests of accuracy. I disagree with Senator Brian Hayes who does not speak for 99% of my party with regard to their feelings about Mr. Murphy.
I try to.
I do not expect brevity from the Senator as it is a pleasure to listen to him, but I would like him to be accurate. I was privileged to get to know Mr. Murphy as a member of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service.
Brevity.
Given the way he let everybody else go on at length, I hope the Cathaoirleach will not stop me.
The Senator's time is almost up.
He is getting ready to stop me.
I gave the Senator an opportunity to speak earlier and it is not fair to make that comment.
I asked my colleague how long people are permitted to speak.
It is the Chair's privilege to decide who speaks and for how long. That should be clear. The Senator's time is up.
For how long are people allowed to speak?
The Leader to reply.
As a member of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, it was a pleasure to meet a public servant like Mr. Murphy.
The Senator should sit down.
Mr. Murphy is not an armchair general. He took on the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners in order to see justice done.
The Leader to reply. The Senator's time is up.
He is not like President Bush and Prime Minister Blair who are armchair generals.
The Senator must resume her seat.
They are unlike Lord Nelson and the Duke of Wellington who led from the front.
Resume your seat, Senator.
They are sending young men to fight in a brutal war.
The Leader to reply.
I hope she is ready.
Senator Brian Hayes, as do all other Members, wished Kevin Murphy well. The Senator also wished Emily O'Reilly well in the post which she is to take up and we all concur with him in that regard. I cannot help but think that the Minister for Finance continues to surprise. The appointment is very interesting and I wish Ms O'Reilly well. I will endeavour to discover when the relevant resolution will come before the House to facilitate a debate on the role of the Information Commissioner.
On behalf of those who raised the matter, I will find out if we can hold a debate on the matter involving Senator Higgins and Deputy Howlin. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is under the aegis of the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Norris calls for a rolling debate on Iraq, which is something I have indicated an interest in. The Senator has done the House some service. We may have quibbles about matters he has presented in the past, but his single-mindedness in his wish to continue to debate this issue has been extremely useful.
Senator Ryan inquired whether Ireland is a member of the coalition of the willing. On the "Morning Ireland" radio programme this morning, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, said that the Pentagon website does not list Ireland in that coalition.
Donald Rumsfeld listed us.
Senator Ryan said there has been a change in the world order and there is no doubt that he is correct. We are witnessing an effort of aggrandisement on the part of the United States of America and we should reflect on where it is leading us.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is keen to attend a debate on crime in the House. It is, however, a matter of making time available, particularly in light of the fact that our first duty is to consider legislation.
Senator Dardis also requested a debate on Iraq and humanitarian aid. He wishes the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, to discuss the matter in the House. The Senator asked if Bus Éireann vehicles are subject to speed limits which, of course, they should be.
Senator Terry said the Garda had detected 80,000 instances of crime which were directly related to alcohol and asked when section 17 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 will be implemented. It falls to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to make regulations in this regard, which is a matter we could usefully debate when crime is discussed in the House. I hope to have such a debate before Easter.
Senator Mansergh correctly told the House that histrionics were not its daily meat. I agree with him that much fine work is conducted here. He wished Mr. Kevin Murphy well and recalled that he had played a pivotal role in the earlier partnership agreement talks, particularly in 1987, the first of the social contract talks.
Senator Henry asked for a debate on Iraq and also gave her views on the new format of the Order Paper. Senator Ó Murchú also asked for a debate on Iraq and said that it was an unjust, immoral and irregular war—
He said it was an illegal war.
The Senator is quite correct and we should continue to describe it as such.
Senator McCarthy spoke about Operation Encounter, the special Garda operation to monitor urban crime. It can be included in the proposed debate on crime. The Senator also asked whether the €5 million for the aid package for Iraq was money which had been earmarked for use in another country. I understand there are discretionary funds for use in war-torn countries which can be used when the need arises. It has not been taken directly from funds set aside for any other country. The ODA budget is not automatically parcelled out under various subheads.
Senator Minihan spoke about Iraq, Cork Airport and the situation in the Cork School of Music. I am aware of his strong feelings on those issues. By pure chance he was heartily appreciated by those in the Visitors Gallery.
It is called organised spontaneity.
A Senator
Timing is everything.
Senator Ulick Burke spoke about Iraq and asked that the Minister for Health and Children come to the House to speak about the medical personnel task force whose report is being revised – a draft report was published. The Minister will publish the final report when he receives it.
Senator Ormonde spoke about the role of parents in controlling under age drinking. She has spoken on the subject before.
Senator Higgins thanked Members of the House for their support. It is a matter of great importance. If any of us was caught in a similar dilemma, we would welcome the support of other Senators.
Senator Maurice Hayes praised Mr. Kevin Murphy. He also spoke about Senator Higgins's case.
Senators McHugh and Lydon asked for a debate on Iraq and the subject of mental health. I thank Senator McHugh for his praise of the Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley, which I will convey to him. Senator Tuffy also asked for a debate on Iraq.
Senator White correctly brought to the attention of the House the fine public service given by Mr. Kevin Murphy. With the permission of the House, I wish to send our congratulations to the new president of UCD, Dr. Hugh Brady.
If the House starts a custom of congratulating presidents of schools and third level institutions, it will be unending.
Then it need not join me in the congratulations I wish to send to Dr. Brady.