Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2004

Vol. 175 No. 5

Order of Business.

Ms O'Rourke

Before coming to today's Order of Business, I have a few notices to bring to the attention of Senators, with your permission, a Chathaoirligh. The Taoiseach will attend the House from 12.30 p.m. to 1.30 p.m. for statements on the European Presidency. That may not have been clear from the Order Paper so that is why I am mentioning it now, in addition to which, it was announced on the radio that the Taoiseach would be meeting Dr. Paisley this morning, but that is happening this evening.

The House will sit tomorrow despite the fact that the Immigration Bill will not be dealt with today in the Dáil. The legislation is being introduced in this House first, so we will sit tomorrow. There will be no sitting next Thursday.

The Order of Business is No. 1, a motion to enable the introduction of electronic voting with effect from next Tuesday, 3 February 2004, to be taken without debate; No. 2, statements on the strategy to address the issue of crisis pregnancy, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 12.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, the contributions of other Senator not to exceed six minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No. 3, statements in relation to the European Presidency, to be taken at 12.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m. I understand the Taoiseach will speak for 20 minutes, which will leave 40 minutes, or eight minutes for each of the five groupings in the Chamber. It will be up to the leaders of each group to sort out the time allocation.

Mr. Finucane

Yesterday, Senator O'Toole raised the issue of the murder in Mountjoy Prison. It is the second murder in the history of the prison service, the first having been committed in 2000. I want to raise an issue of concern, which is beginning to get out of control. While I am aware of the ongoing debacle between the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Prison Officers' Association concerning overtime, at the end of the day we will end up with a defective system with very little rehabilitation in the prison service.

Spike Island prison was opened at a time when a joy-riding epidemic was rife in Dublin. Offenders were taken to Spike Island, which at one time had 102 prisoners but now that number has fallen to 40. The prisoners, many of whom are from rural locations, have been taken from Spike Island to St. Patrick's Institution in Dublin, which is a closed prison and is already congested. Prisons were originally designed to hold one prisoner per cell, which would be the proper procedure but, as a result of lack of capacity, cells are being used to hold two prisoners. Senators will have read newspaper reports of a sexual assault on a prisoner from Spike Island in one of those cells at St. Patrick's Institution. This is leading to a very difficult situation. In the past, Ministers were very loud in heralding extra prison places but those are now being scaled down. Prisoners in St. Patrick's Institution are aged from 16 to 21 and there is no rehabilitative system in place for them after they leave the closed prison system. Shanganagh Castle in Shankill, County Dublin, has been closed. It acted as a halfway house in the rehabilitation process for young offenders.

Senators will be aware of the serious situation we have had in the past in Limerick. I understand it is possible that weaponry has been smuggled into Limerick Prison where building work is being carried out. It appears that a worker in builder's uniform, not necessarily from the site, was seen on CCTV smuggling items into a workshop in the prison. An investigation is now taking place to investigate the strong suspicion that weaponry has been smuggled in to the prison. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, must come to this House to discuss the prison system which is beginning to creak. If there is a row over a system——

An Cathaoirleach

Order.

Mr. Finucane

Senator Dardis may feel it is all right to laugh, but I regard this as a serious matter.

Mr. Dardis

I was not laughing about that matter.

Mr. Finucane

I do not know what the joke is about.

Mr. Dardis

On a point of order, the Senator has no knowledge with regard to the reason I was laughing.

Mr. Finucane

I know the Minister is a colleague of the Senator's, and I would like him to come to the House to answer questions rather than to make statements. We should be concerned with what is happening in the system.

Mr. O'Toole

I will revisit that subject when we get some response as to the reason the particular prisoner who was murdered was in B wing. The Leader said she would contact the Minister on this crucial issue and I look forward to hearing his response. I agree with the point made that where people must live in crowded conditions it creates congestion and difficulties.

When the matter of taking the Immigration Bill on Friday was put to the Whips, it was put on the basis that it would go through the Dáil on Thursday and that it had to be passed before the weekend. I am sick and tired of being misled by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Mr. Finucane

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Toole

I am really tired of it. We make changes to accommodate the Department, but suddenly the matter is no longer urgent. I am not happy to complete our debate of the Bill on Friday although I do not mind if we deal with Second Stage because we have already committed to dealing with it. I am opposed to rushing the Bill through on Friday because there is no longer any urgency. The urgency pressed on us by the Leader in all honesty was that the Bill had to passed by us before the weekend. This is no longer the case and the Department should be told to take a running jump. It always carries on in this manner. It makes its business urgent for everybody, yet it always gets it wrong. This is about the third time in two years we have had to revisit legislation on which the Department refused to accept changes when it was first brought through these Houses. It is the worst Department to deal with in this House. It never accepts amendments. No matter which Minister is present, they sit blank-faced and stonewall through all Stages. We never make progress with them and the result is that legislation has to be revisited and all sorts of difficulties arise such as the reappointment of judges who have been in office for years. This happens with the Department time and again. I am not prepared, and neither should the House be, to rush through this legislation on Friday morning. The legislation is crucial because it gives additional powers to people and we must give it time.

We must also examine the implications of the European Commission decision in relation to Ryanair. Members of the Houses must be made aware of the difference between subventions and doing business with airports. Ryanair has been fleecing small airports around Europe. If the Commission gets it right on Tuesday, there will be no further difficulty. However, if it comes up with a solution which prevents an airport such as Shannon from doing the sort of deal it does at present, where it does not apply a charge to those opening new routes for some years, it will be a disaster. There is nothing wrong with it stopping unscrupulous airlines such as Ryanair from forcing small communities to pay money they do not have for the provision of a service but if it prevents airports from doing deals to provide incentives to open new routes, it will create a huge problem. We need openness and understanding on this issue. We do not all need to rush behind Ryanair, but we do need to support openness and be aware of the needs of small airports such as Shannon, Charleroi and others.

Mr. Norris

Our spokesman, Senator Ross, will deal with that.

Ms O'Meara

I agree with Senator O'Toole on the issue of the Immigration Bill. It is recognised that this House does its best to co-operate with Departments, but we do not like to be misused. We appreciate that the Leader takes this same view and does not allow the House to be misused. We need to revisit the situation with regard to the Bill. We agreed to debate it tomorrow in order to facilitate what we were told was an urgent situation. However, it no longer appears to be urgent. Media reports have led me to understand that the Minister has listened to and heard the difficulties of the Opposition with the speed the Bill was being rushed through the Houses. Does this not apply equally to the Seanad?

I suggest we just take Second Stage tomorrow. We propose to bring forward a number of amendments. As a minimum, I ask the Department to indicate through the Leader whether it is open to amendments. In particular, if amendments are taken on board in the Dáil, the legislation should return to the Seanad. The Department should not take the view that any amendments made by the second Chamber should not be entertained because this would delay the progress of the Bill. I ask the Leader to transmit this message to the Department. If the urgency has gone, there is no need to take all Stages of the Bill tomorrow. As we have put the matter in our diary, we could start the process tomorrow with Second Stage and complete it next week.

Committees were particularly busy yesterday. It was a hectic day as recorded by RTE. A particularly useful debate took place at the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on the issue of phone charges, particularly the increase in fixed telephone line rental charges which are causing difficulty for consumers and all players in the market. Will the Leader consider allowing the House to debate the issue? Extensive and useful information, much of it new, was brought before the committee yesterday. It would be useful to Members of this House to examine and debate that information and to hear the Minister's plans on the matter with regard to consumers and their protection.

Mr. Hanafin

I ask for a debate on the mobile telephone industry in this country. Currently, we have a duopoly which makes fine profits. The Eircell wing of Eircom was sold to Vodafone at a discounted price. The successful creation of a duopoly has resulted in keeping other players out of the market. Vodafone and O2 together have 95% of the market. Meteor has no opportunity to grow because of the refusal of both players to allow Meteor to use its licence and coverage. They have also succeeded in keeping out NVNO operators. Vodafone is making significant profits of €400 million a year. Last week a request issued from this House with regard to blocking pornography coming through on telephones which would be quite easy to do as there are only a few telephone suppliers such as Nokia. However, I saw a reply in the newspaper saying that people have a right to send and transmit these images. Many pay-as-you-go mobile telephones are bought by adults for children. I ask for a debate on this serious issue. No action will be taken unless we request it and the Leader writes to ComReg.

Mr. Feighan

Will the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come to the House to confirm or deny whether it is the State's contention that people with diabetes are unfit to drive? We have all got diabetic friends, family members or neighbours and following a recent ban on a diabetic, this decision will have serious implications for up to 115,000 diabetics here. It was irresponsible of the DPP to bring this case. I ask that the Minister comes to the House as there will be serious implications for diabetics if they cannot drive.

Mr. J. Walsh

I agree with the points made by Senator O'Meara on the debate at the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and with what was said by Senator Hanafin. Competition and the duopoly which was mentioned are matters on which we could usefully have a serious debate. We should acknowledge the very constructive manner in which the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has dealt with the issues. He has displayed great interest and flair in the manner in which he has tackled what are fairly complex issues. Most objective commentators and observers agree that the initiatives the Minister has taken have proven to be quite effective.

It would be useful to have a debate on the recently announced programme of the National Roads Authority in the not too distant future. I am concerned about the lack of investment in projects in the south east where there is a real need for road improvement. Much of the south east would have qualified for Objective One status if it had been contiguous with the BMW region. We also need to examine the value for money we are getting in some instances. I acknowledge that the M1 is a tremendous success. It represents the standard for which we should be aiming. On the other hand, the N11, which is the route to Wexford along the coast, has 40 mph speed limits despite the investment of considerable amounts of money in a dual-carriageway. It begs the question of why we are investing in roads. The answer is obviously to facilitate improvements in the operating costs of business and industry by providing them with roads commensurate with that objective. Obviously, someone in the NRA does not appreciate that which is why a debate would be useful.

On the Order of Business, the Leader outlined that the time limit on the debate later will be eight minutes per grouping. While I will accept that in this instance, in future the time allocated should reflect the fact that Fianna Fáil represents 50% of the Members of the House. Time should not be allocated on a group basis as there is a huge disparity in numbers.

Mr. U. Burke

The Senator is at it again.

Mr. J. Walsh

In all fairness, I ask the Leaders of each group and the Whips to examine this matter.

Mr. Feighan

Did not Fianna Fáil try to burn the Reichstag yesterday?

Mr. Norris

I am sure Members around the House will join me in expressing sadness and horror at the bombing in Jerusalem this morning. It is an appalling thing to happen and I feel it particularly because it exploded five minutes from where I lived for many years from time to time. I know the area well. During the recent visit a number of us made, all Palestinian leaders condemned this sort of activity on moral grounds and said it was counterproductive, as it has proved to be in this case. Instantly, the Israeli spokesman, Mr. Raanan Gissin, said the bomb demonstrated that the rest of the world should stand back and let Israel do what it needed to in the interests of its security. I, for one, will not stand back because serious human rights issues are involved. This outrage cannot be used to mask them.

I went through the usual routine in these circumstances of ringing Jerusalem this morning to find out if friends, loved ones and neighbours were fine. They are, thank God. I was told something I did not know. Yesterday, nine Palestinians, most of whom were unarmed civilians, were shot dead in Gaza. We heard nothing about it here. As far as I am concerned, a life is a life and each should be cherished.

It did not come as a surprise to many of us that the BBC has been "Widgeryed" by Lord Hutton. From the wireless this morning, I understand that he was associated with that tainted process. I am astonished. When a list of 25 names is provided, the correspondent is told to guess which one is relevant, he hits gold at No. 25 and the matter is confirmed, what has happened to the policy of neither confirming nor denying in security matters? Dr. Kelly was outed by the British Government and although he said he had nothing to do with it, Mr. Blair chaired the meeting at which the decision was taken. That makes him a confirmed liar in my opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not proper. It is unfair to say that about a neighbouring Prime Minister or any parliamentarian. Will the Senator amend his comment?

Mr. Norris

If I must find some more emollient phrase for the record to cover his deceit, I will certainly attempt to do so though it will take me a little while. In the meantime, I withdraw the specific word.

Mr. Mooney

I am very pleased the Cathaoirleach asked our colleague to withdraw that particular word.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a matter for the Chair.

Mr. Mooney

I appreciate that. I had intended to support Senator Norris in his earlier impassioned plea which was somewhat diluted by his subsequent sad comments about the friendly Prime Minister of a neighbouring country. Having said that, I praise the Senator. Many Members will agree with his exchange of views with the Israeli ambassador on "Morning Ireland" recently. I compliment Senator Norris on the manner in which he conducted that debate.

Will the Leader consider asking the relevant Minister, whom I believe is the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, if he will come to the House to make a statement on the decision by the European Commission recently to fine Ryanair? It would also be appropriate to raise with the Minister the question of subsidies to State-owned airports throughout Europe. As far as I can interpret, the Minister in Brussels yesterday criticised the Commission's decision. If he did, I share his views. It is a matter of grave concern. I am not an apologist for Ryanair, but the company opened the entire aviation market and provided access to air travel to hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who would not otherwise have had it. The Commission is now to question whether or not this development should be allowed to continue unfettered. If the decision of the Commission continues to be implemented, it will have very serious consequences. I am sure the Leader will have a comment on that as a former Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should not anticipate what the Leader will say.

Mr. Mooney

Will the Leader be able to address the issue in light of her expertise in this area as distinct from her role in the House? If the Commission's decision stands, it will have very serious consequences for low cost air travel within the European Union.

Mr. Ross

I endorse what Senator Mooney has just said and what Senator O'Toole said earlier. The decision in question will be made public on Tuesday. We are speaking here of a leaked document. If Senator Mooney is correct and the decision goes against Ryanair, there are very serious implications for the airline industry in Ireland. Whereas many of us are on different sides on the Ryanair issue, this is a wider matter. It concerns not only competition in an intangible sense among airlines, but every citizen on this island. The great achievement of Ryanair has been to open airports and airlines to people who could not normally afford to travel abroad. It has created a huge market for Irish people to travel to places to which they might never have been before. If that is to come to an end, it is a matter of Government policy. It is a matter on which the Minister for Transport has already expressed an opinion. It would be very useful for us to seize the initiative by having a debate on the matter next week.

Ms Feeney

In light of the change in UK legislation last week which means that from 2005 there will no longer be anonymity in respect of sperm donations, it is timely to open the debate here and, perhaps, to change our law. A change in the legislation would not only be humane, it would be ethically and morally right.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator Finucane, the acting Leader of the Opposition, raised the issue of the closing or mothballing of some prisons. He asked for clarification of the situation, particularly regarding St. Patrick's Institution, to where many prisoners have been transferred, and the scaling down of Shanganagh Castle and other places, including Limerick Prison. The Senator is in effect asking for a debate on the policy regarding prison accommodation arising from the recent industrial relations matter. I have spoken at length this morning to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. He is agreeable to come to the House for a debate on the issues of juvenile crime and prison places. I will inform the House in that regard.

Senator O'Toole concurred with that request and raised the issue of Friday's sitting. I wish to make it clear to the House that I was very alarmed and upset that I heard on the radio before my office was informed that this Bill was not now going through the other House because of other matters which had arisen in the Bill and which heretofore were unnoticed. I conveyed my opinion to the Minister, Deputy McDowell, this morning. He gave me a very good hearing for 15 minutes on the telephone. I have no beef with him because he listened to me. However, I heard about it on the radio before my office was informed. I am not acting in a grand manner when I refer to "my office"; it consists of myself and one other person——

Mr. Norris

The House supports the Leader in speaking out.

Ms O'Rourke

——who is constantly on the telephone. The news was not conveyed to us by his Department so it was not his fault. I agree with Senator O'Toole. The House had arranged to sit on Friday in any case. It was put to me that the sitting was already arranged, but that was on the basis that the Bill was being dealt with first in the other House today. I am not happy about it and I have conveyed the dissatisfaction of the House to the Minister. If the House does not stand up for itself, and that is something that will be done more frequently——

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear. That is well spoken.

Mr. Ross

Hear, hear.

Ms O'Rourke

We do not wish to compete with anyone or get the better of anyone; we just want courtesy and proper procedure.

Mr. O'Toole

Will the House deal with Second Stage only?

Ms O'Rourke

I will deal with the Minister on that issue. I sent three messages and three messages came back referring to a full hearing on Friday. I will propose to the Minister that the House deal with Second Stage only tomorrow and that is something I will deal with personally. It has proved difficult to work through third parties, although I thank those who helped. I do not know if the situation will be resolved.

Mr. O'Toole

The Minister is a tough man if he stands up to the Leader.

Ms O'Rourke

Senator O' Toole raised the issue of Ryanair. I am referring to the company and not to any individual in particular. I fully agree with the Senator that there is a particular issue. Aer Rianta operates a three year system for new airlines and new routes. However, that is different from a plain subsidy which is what small towns were bullied into giving to get these routes. This is the very matter on which I fell out with a particular gentleman who wanted me to engage in incorrect behaviour by extending the subvention period for many years. Not only did I fall out with a particular person, but I was upbraided by all and sundry, including particular Members of this House——

Mr. Norris

The Leader should name and shame.

An Cathaoirleach

Order, please.

Ms O'Rourke

There is a clear difference between the temporary subvention which is permitted under law and the continuation of that subvention which is not permitted. That is the matter at issue, not anything else. I have always been very clear in my mind about it, but others were not. The wheel always turns and it comes to everyone.

Senator O'Meara will indulge my smirk. She stated that the House cannot be misused and I fully agree with her. This House cannot and will not be misused. If a Bill is urgently required for a particular purpose, the House is very generous with its agreement. I will return to the House on the question of tomorrow's business. I agree with the Senator that the schedule of the House for Friday is already arranged. However, I will be absent from the House tomorrow for personal reasons; it is my husband's anniversary. I wish to explain the reason in case it was thought that I would not attend a Friday sitting.

We would all benefit from a debate on communications. I agree with Senator Jim Walsh in admiring the speed and dexterity with which the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, responded to the issues. Senator Hanafin also requested a debate on communications issues. I will ask the Minister today. Pornography is a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, not the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. Senator Jim Walsh also asked for a debate on the NRA programme and the varying degrees of competency on various road matters.

Senator Norris spoke about the bombs in Jerusalem. There has been a complacency shown in the non-reporting of this event. I believe there are nine dead and 11 seriously injured. The Cathaoirleach dealt with the matter of the Hutton report.

Senator Mooney asked that the Minister for Transport come to the House to clarify the issue regarding the three year allowable subventions and the non-allowable subventions for a longer period. I suggest we await the Commission's ruling on Monday and then seek a debate.

I agree with Senator Ross that Ryanair brought air travel within the reach of most Irish people and other airlines followed. Credit should always be given for the opening of that door and the spirit of adventure which it imbued in everybody——

Mr. O'Toole

And to the workers in small airports whom he exploited along the way.

Ms O'Rourke

I could write a book on that subject. In fact, I am writing a book and it will be a very important part of it.

I note the change in UK legislation regarding the anonymity of sperm donors. I thank Senator Feeney for raising the matter. I will ask the Minister for Health and Children to address the issue as it has been raised with some Members by other people.

In response to Senator Feighan, I am not sure what was said about diabetics and who made the ruling on their fitness to drive. I presume this would be a matter for the Department of Health and Children rather than the Department of Transport. It would be a suitable subject for the Adjournment.

Senator Jim Walsh spoke about the disparity of time allocated in debates. The time for this debate is compressed into 40 minutes. We took the easy option and divided 40 minutes by five, which gave eight minutes to each group. This is a matter that could be raised with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in order to have a clear guideline. The time is short, but I am sure the leaders will use it well.

Order of Business agreed to.