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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Nov 2004

Vol. 178 No. 19

Decentralisation Programme: Statements.

I am pleased to appear here today to address Members of the House on the Government's decentralisation programme. I would like to start by once again reiterating the Government's commitment to the full implementation of the programme. Since I last appeared here on 2 June this year, a number of key developments have occurred. The second report of the decentralisation implementation group was published at the end of July. In this report the group stated it would report to the Cabinet sub-committee on decentralisation in the autumn outlining its views on sequencing and timing. It indicated that the selection of organisations and locations for inclusion in the first phase of moves would have particular regard to the figures emerging from the Central Applications Facility and relevant property and business issues. A report containing full details of priority applications to the Central Applications Facility up to 7 September 2004 was duly published. The names of the Departments and organisations selected to move in the first phase of the programme were announced in the implementation group's report published on 24 November 2004. A further report from the group on the procurement and financial issues relating to property was published on 24 November 2004.

Both reports published last week were first submitted to my colleague, the Minister for Finance, by the decentralisation implementation group, chaired by Mr. Phil Flynn. The reports were published following the Government's approval of all the recommendations contained therein. The first report dealt with the selection of organisations or locations for inclusion in the first phase of moves. The report lists 15 Departments and offices which should be the first to relocate outside of Dublin. This involves 21 projects, 20 locations and the transfer of eight headquarters. Contrary to some media reports, the programme is being phased in as opposed to phased out.

Senators

Hear, hear.

The intention is that this group of organisations will receive initial priority attention in terms of staff transfers and property procurement while still ensuring progress for all the remaining organisations. The headquarters of the Departments of Social and Family Affairs, Arts, Sport and Tourism, Defence, Education and Science, Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Agriculture and Food, together with the Office of Public Works, are included in this initial phase. Approximately 3,500 Civil Service posts are earmarked to move in this first element in the decentralisation programme. A wide range of Departments and offices are included. Some locations will have more than one Department relocate there. For example, Drogheda is included twice as both the Departments of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and Social and Family Affairs have been approved for the first phase, while some Departments and offices have a number of locations included in the list. For example, the Revenue Commissioners will transfer to Kilrush, Listowel and Newcastle West.

In selecting these Departments and offices, I understand that the group paid particular attention to the figures which emerged from the CAF following the cut-off date for receipt of priority applications on 7 September 2004. It reviewed the overall number of people interested in moving to these locations and the extent to which the jobs available in particular grades at each location are matched by the applications for these grades, particularly in the case of the senior grades. The selection also had regard to other factors. Locations where the purchase of a site is well advanced or can be advanced quickly, and-or where it seems that a building can be procured quickly, were reviewed and the business-related issues that arose in the relevant individual implementation plans were considered.

Both the group and the Government are conscious of the challenges that need to be addressed as the implementation process moves forward. These include issues relating to the transfer of departmental headquarters, continued provision of customer services, effective cross-organisation collaboration and the particular challenges to be faced in dealing with professional and technical staff. The best way to overcome these challenges is to select a mix of organisations which is sufficiently representative in terms of the issues that need to be tackled and to have an appropriate geographical distribution.

At this point I would like to deal with the point raised by some commentators that, with the publication and Government approval of the first phase locations, the remaining locations and organisations have been sidelined or abandoned. Again I would like to stress that this is not the case. In its report, the implementation group points out that it will report again in spring 2005. On that occasion, the group will deal with the organisations and locations not covered in its report of 24 November 2004. To date, the implementation group has demonstrated an excellent track record in delivering reports on time and I have no doubt this trend will continue.

The Public Appointments Service, formerly the Civil Service Commission, which operates the CAF, has recently notified personnel officers of the names of those in their organisations who wish to decentralise with them. This allows personnel officers to start planning and making appropriate internal reassignments to facilitate the relocation process. Management across the public service will also receive details of those members of their staff who wish to leave the organisation to move to another location under the terms of the programme. Again this information will facilitate medium-term planning in all of the Civil Service and public service organisations involved.

The next step in the process involves immediate planning for interdepartmental transfers following appropriate consultation with public service management and unions. The organisations listed in the first phase need to receive priority in managing and making the necessary interdepartmental transfers, although these will inevitably affect all Departments to some degree. I have concentrated thus far on the issues relating to those who wish to relocate. Both I and my colleagues are aware that this group represents only part of the picture. There is another group of public servants who for various reasons wish to continue working in Dublin. From the outset, the Government has stressed the voluntary nature of this programme and the fact that the staff who do not wish to relocate will be offered an alternative public service post in Dublin. We will continue to be conscious of the needs of this group as we move on with the implementation of the programme.

The arrangements for managing interdepartmental transfers will also address the position of those staff who want to remain in Dublin but who will be required to transfer to other organisations because there will no longer be posts available for them in their existing organisation. The selection of those to transfer will initially be done on the basis of volunteers. If there are insufficient volunteers, the "last in, first out" principle will apply. The aim will be to ensure that, in so far as is possible, only one move between Departments will take place. Vacancies will arise in Dublin posts as individuals wishing to decentralise move to new organisations. The arrangements will aim to allow those moving to another Department in Dublin to indicate preferences on where they would wish to transfer, although it must be recognised that it will not always be possible to meet those wishes. As the implementation group suggests in its report, the approval by Government and release of the list of "first mover" organisations, and the issues arising in regard to managing these moves, should provide a structure for discussions between Civil Service management and unions about a range of issues relating to mobility, recruitment and promotion.

The OPW has provided a schedule of indicative timescales for all the locations listed in the report. It has listed the indicative construction start and completion dates for each location. Allowing for completion of the procurement and planning processes, it can be seen that eight buildings would be completed in 2006, a further nine in 2007 and the remaining four in 2008. I should emphasise that the timelines provided by the OPW are indicative but also add that the indicative construction completion dates are the guide for not just the completion of the construction of a shell of a building, but of a completed, fitted out building ready for occupation.

All of the participating organisations prepared implementation plans earlier this year. Since then additional information has been made available by the CAF regarding staff numbers by my office regarding property issues. In addition, all organisations now know whether or not they are included in the first phase of moves. Based on this, the implementation group has quite reasonably asked that all organisations produce further more detailed versions of their plans. This will be an invaluable step in the planning process.

It has been acknowledged over the past number of months that the CAF figures for the State agencies are not as good as those for the Civil Service. A number of factors may have contributed to this, for example, there is an understanding and experience within the Civil Service of decentralisation and of interdepartmental transfer. This does not exist within the State agencies, where there is little tradition of interagency transfers.

The implementation group has suggested that the particular nature of the employment relationship to which I have referred can be addressed by the adoption of a more individualised approach to implementation in State agencies.

On this basis the group identifies seven agencies or locations, involving more than 700 jobs, which should receive initial priority attention. The seven include the transfer of FÁS to Birr, Bord Iascaigh Mhara to Clonakilty, Comhairle to Drogheda, Sustainable Energy Ireland to Dundalk, the National Safety Council to Loughrea, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to Portarlington, and the Health and Safety Authority to Thomastown in County Kilkenny.

The second report dealt with the financial implications of the office accommodation aspects of the programme and the procurement methodology. The key findings are as follows: In the years 2006-10 there is an increasingly negative cumulative cashflow as the site acquisition, construction and lease exit costs exceed the proceeds from the disposal of surplus owned property in Dublin and the rental savings; thereafter, the rental savings act to reduce, and eventually eliminate, the negative cumulative cashflow to the State; from 2026 onwards the cumulative discounted cashflow becomes positive; and at the end of that period, the State owns all the buildings in the decentralised locations and the annual rental savings would continue to accrue. The capital costs of procuring office accommodation in the decentralised locations will be dealt with when the Minister for Finance announces the revised multi-annual capital investment envelopes on budget day.

The Office of Public Works has been given primary responsibility for delivering the property aspects of the decentralisation programme and I confirm that considerable progress has been made in this regard. The tasks facing OPW include the following: the sourcing of property solutions at the various locations concerned which mainly involves the acquisition of development sites; the procurement of accommodation solutions to the office and facility requirements of the Departments and agencies involved; the rationalisation and consolidation of the use of Dublin office space, both owned and leased, following decentralisation; and the management of the disposal of surplus Dublin office accommodation.

In late December 2003, the OPW placed advertisements in the national press seeking expressions of interest from those willing to provide suitable good quality modern offices, either existing or under construction, and suitable sites with planning permission or appropriate planning zoning which would facilitate the construction of new office buildings.

Following the requests for property proposals, the Office of Public Works received in excess of 700 proposed property solutions regarding the decentralisation programme scheduled for the various locations around the country. Detailed evaluation of these proposals has been undertaken and, as already stated, the Office of Public Works has made significant progress in sourcing possible sites at the locations concerned.

The evaluation process involves the following three-strand approach: An architectural assessment by OPW architects; a valuation process undertaken by both OPW and private sector valuers; and an assessment by reference to the business needs and staff requirements of each decentralising Department or agencies.

To date, nine property solutions have been agreed in principle and a further 20 plus are at an advanced stage in the acquisition process. I also confirm that the balance of the sites for the remaining locations in the programme are being proactively pursued by the OPW. The locations where solutions have been identified are Carlow, Longford, Newcastle West, Athlone, the Curragh, Sligo, Dundalk, Furbo and Donegal. Regarding Carlow, Longford and Newcastle West, the Chief State Solicitor is currently processing contract documents in respect of sites, and it is expected that the associated acquisition phase will be completed as quickly as possible.

State-owned land will accommodate the decentralised buildings scheduled for Athlone, the Curragh, and Sligo, while the proposed location of the Dundalk building will be on land at the Dundalk Institute of Technology. It is proposed to locate the staff relocating to Furbo in an extension to an existing building.

A broad range of factors will influence the cost of acquiring sites, including, proximity of the site to commercial, leisure and educational facilities; proximity to public transport; access to and from a good quality road network; zoning for development; and the prevailing property market conditions in each geographical area.

Regarding the programme procurement methodology the group suggested, in its report dated 31 March 2004, the adoption of a public private partnership approach in procuring office accommodation in the decentralised locations, with a preference for a design, build, maintain and finance approach.

In this regard the OPW has since been advised by the National Development Finance Agency that potential PPP projects need to exceed a certain minimum value in order to generate an economically viable proposition for private sector investment. Relatively few single construction projects within the decentralisation programme would exceed this minimum value. The group has considered the scope for bundling several projects together and offering them en bloc to the market. However, the OPW advice is that this approach would give rise to serious practical difficulties in managing the projects and should not be adopted. Ultimately, the suitability of the DBMF approach will have to be determined by testing the market for a number of the larger projects.

In the case of smaller projects and in light of the advice received, the OPW now recommends that a design and build approach be pursued in most cases. This approach should help to advance projects to tender stage at a faster pace because the contract documentation would not be as complex as for DBMF. At the same time, it would allow the OPW to test whether the use of warranty provisions for particular components of the building provides a possible alternative to a comprehensive maintenance contract.

There may be other locations where the DB tender approach would not be suitable, for example, where an existing building is being acquired, where the OPW can enter into a satisfactory agreement with a developer or where the project is so small that it would not attract sufficient private sector interest. In such cases, a fit-out or traditional procurement will be required.

In general, a twin-track approach of DBMF and DB will be adopted for the procurement of office accommodation. For those locations, which involve accommodation for at least 300 staff, it is intended that the DBMF approach will continue to be pursued subject to it demonstrating value for money relative to the public service benchmark in each case. In line with the implementation group's recommendation, the OPW has developed, with the assistance of the NDFA, a generic public service benchmark. This is a comprehensive risk-adjusted costing of the project, over its whole life, using conventional procurement. It provides a comparator against which to measure the value for money of the public private partnership. For the remaining locations, a design and build approach will be adopted.

This parallel approach should give the market an opportunity to demonstrate that it can provide the required office accommodation on a value for money basis but, at the same time, provide assurance about early progress on implementation of the programme; and allow each approach to be compared with, and evaluated relative to, the other. This overall strategy will be reviewed in light of experience with the market during the first phase of implementation of the programme.

Regarding property disposal, a desire to hold on to large amounts of owned property in Dublin for reasons other than its monetary value to the State would have a negative impact on the programme's financial framework. In addition, the estimated Dublin rental savings are sensitive to securing a match over a reasonable period between Departments occupying regional property and vacating Dublin property. The relocation of Dublin staff to the new offices will take place on a phased basis in most cases, even where there is a full complement of new staff ready to decentralise.

It is important that the overall property procurement and disposal process be managed in an integrated way. The OPW will be a decentralisation champion to ensure compliance by Departments with, among other things, the release of space to allow the OPW to take advantage of critical lease disposal dates; agreement as required to interim moves to other buildings in Dublin to ensure efficient property utilisation and to capitalise on market opportunities to sell buildings; and acceptance of building sharing as necessary to allow property disposals, both for staff decentralising and those staying in Dublin.

From a purely property management point of view with regard to the reduction of leased Dublin offices, the longer the OPW has to dispose of its leased space the lower the lease-exit costs would be.

These costs would also be reduced if, and to the extent that, the sequencing of moves could be driven by lease disposal and rationalisation opportunities. However, in reality, implementation of the programme cannot be driven entirely by property considerations as people and service delivery issues will also be taken fully into account.

The minimisation of lease exit costs will be actively managed by the OPW. It is also likely that greater value would be obtained if more owned property was sold and less forced disposal of leased property took place within a short timescale. This may require Departments the headquarters of which are not being decentralised to change accommodation. It should also be possible to sublet even relatively unattractive properties if they are offered to the market at sufficiently competitive prices.

It is clear that the delivery of the property element of the decentralisation programme amounts to a major challenge for the OPW and will require a concentrated effort from all areas of the OPW in the months and years ahead. I am confident this effort will be forthcoming and that progress to date, which has been significant, will be maintained. In conclusion, I am satisfied the decentralisation programme will be delivered.

I wish to share time with Senator Feighan, by agreement.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, is present for this debate. The Minister of State came to the House almost one year ago, following the last budget on 3 December 2004, when the main topic of discussion was the decentralisation issue. This was mainly because there was little else in the budget until the then Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, pulled a rabbit from the hat and made his major commitment to different urban centres throughout the country. What was plain at the time to anyone who cared to examine the facts was that what was promised on budget day could not be delivered. The promises were made for political reasons.

It was difficult to listen to much of the Minister's contribution. I have rarely heard as much waffle in my time as a Member of the House.

The Senator is not long here.

No commitment to anything is contained in the Minister's remarks. He wandered onto many topics that had little or nothing to do with decentralisation but failed to refer to the commitments given in this Chamber on 3 December last by himself and other Government Members. However, we have come to expect nothing else from the Government.

Some 12 months later, it is easy to comment on remarks made by Members in the budget debate last year. Nonetheless, it is interesting and humorous to look back at what other Members had to say last year in regard to the workings of decentralisation. Senator Mansergh stated that one of the reasons he was pleased with the budget was because the Minister was up-front about decentralisation. He stated: "I am sure Members from all sides are pleased that the decentralisation programme will benefit 53 locations within the extended timeframe."

That is correct.

It is clear this will not happen. The Senator should tell this to the people he represents in Tipperary town, which was promised 200 jobs within three years but will not get them.

It has already got them.

It will not get the 200 jobs promised on budget day 12 months ago, despite the comments made at that time.

Is the Senator for or against decentralisation?

The Senator without interruption, please.

Senator Mansergh went on to state: "Not only does today's announcement represent a fulfilment of many promises that were made, but it also dispels some of the fears expressed when the national spatial strategy was published." This is rubbish. The national spatial strategy has been cast aside by the Government.

No, it has not.

It has been completely cast aside. The recent announcement with regard to decentralisation further proves this.

Senator Mooney got hot under the collar in last year's debate on decentralisation when he emphatically stated: "It will be implemented within the timeframe." We all know this is a joke and that Senator Mooney was completely wrong. Anyone who considered the figures in last year's budget and noted the €20 million granted under the heading of promoting decentralisation would know that it could not have been developed within the 12 months since the last budget.

The Senator is waffling now. Nobody said it would.

It was stated by every Government Member and the Minister of State himself said it.

Absolutely not.

Allow the Senator to continue without interruption, please.

The Minister of State said it. I am glad Senator Leyden is present. To be fair, he often provides light entertainment in the House.

I thank the Senator. I will have some light entertainment for him in a few minutes.

We have a good sense of humour in County Roscommon.

It is important somebody would fulfil that function in the Seanad. In the debate last year, Senator Leyden stated he was delighted Roscommon town had received the 230 Land Registry jobs it has clearly not received. He went on to state: "It is a great boost to myself.....every cumann member throughout County Roscommon and all the supporters of Fianna Fáil." The Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, will be interested to hear of this boost for the Fianna Fáil Party. Senator Leyden continued:

No Government in the history of the State has decentralised 10,500 jobs to the regions. [The Government has not done so either.] This will be implemented within three years. In the lifetime of the Government, all this work will be completed and the staff will be in place.

This is rubbish. The best example of how Senator Leyden, in particular, was wrong on this issue is his statement: "This development....will help us as we face into the local elections. In Roscommon we have five good candidates and we intend to get four out of the five seats." Fianna Fáil did not get four out of five seats.

We got 54% of the vote.

The party did not get four out of five seats. The Senator continued:

Due to the decentralisation of 230 jobs to Roscommon, the people will respond and vote for Fianna Fáil in the local elections. We will also get two MEPs elected to Europe in the Connacht-Ulster constituency.

The Progressive Democrats are not mentioned.

The Senator does not know his facts.

As we know from what happened in June last, the people were not conned by the promises made by Senator Leyden and others in the run-up to the local elections.

We got 54% of the votes.

Allow the Senator to speak without interruption.

They will not be conned in the run-up to the next general election either. I must contact the local media in Roscommon to highlight Senator Leyden's comments in the run-up to the next general election.

The Senator should watch his own patch.

One telling comment from the Minister of State in this debate was the phrase "following appropriate consultation." More than anything else, this is where the idea of the decentralisation scheme announced last year has fallen down. There has not been the appropriate prior consultation to which the Minister referred today. He talks about it now but much of the consultation should have taken place immediately before the announcement was made in last December's budget.

Senator Leyden asked where I and Fine Gael stand in regard to decentralisation. For his benefit and that of the House, I restate that I am fully in favour of decentralisation. A number of my party colleagues expressed their particular personal views——

Deputy Richard Bruton, for example.

——as did members of Senator Leyden's party who represent Dublin constituencies.

We are united.

I would not take that route. The Senator's party is certainly not united. Members of my party hold different views from my own but the party policy is clear — we fully support decentralisation.

Is the Senator sure? That is a change in policy.

However, we were fully aware last year that what was promised on budget day could not be delivered and it has not been delivered.

I was today provided with a list of the towns that have been cast adrift and will not be included with the early movers. The Minister read into the record many waffly terms that mean nothing to anybody and certainly not to the people of New Ross, County Wexford, my local town, although I live six miles from there in County Kilkenny. In many respects, New Ross is a town that has not experienced the benefits of the Celtic tiger in the past ten years yet the 130 jobs promised for that town will not be delivered, no more than the jobs promised for Kilkenny city, Waterford city, Dungarvan and elsewhere will be delivered.

The major argument Fine Gael has with the latest announcement on decentralisation is that it is clearly driven by Ministers. I applaud the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon. He got into hot water last year in regard to his posters and leaflets, which were obviously printed before the budget was announced to state that decentralised jobs——

That is a total lie. It is an untruth. I ask the Senator to withdraw it.

The Minister will have his opportunity to reply.

If the remark was incorrect, I withdraw it. The perception among the general public was that the posters and leaflets were printed before the announcement was made in the budget.

I applaud the Minister of State and the Minister. They have clearly ensured that the Laoighis-Offaly constituency will be looked after. However, it is obvious from the latest news on decentralisation that the proposals as they currently stand are driven by Ministers.

Taking Munster as a region, only Kerry and Limerick are in the early movers category. That is clearly because the Ministers who, as Deputies, represent those constituencies are looking after their own back yards. It is not appropriate, fair or right that Tipperary town, regarded as the poorest town in the country, which Senator Mansergh represents and to which he lives adjacent, will not be looked after under decentralisation because it does not have a Minister representing it.

Not yet.

It has been looked after, to the tune of 20 jobs.

Other towns, less fortunate than those in Kerry and Limerick, will not be looked after either.

The other issue that has arisen since the recent announcement on decentralisation is that for 11 of the 14 towns announced, the jobs to be decentralised there are already decentralised. The civil servants involved are already working outside Dublin and will simply be moved a little further. That will not create any extra decentralisation from Dublin city, which is what we were all supportive of, myself included, when decentralisation was announced.

The Senator's party was not supportive.

My party and I were supportive.

The Fine Gael Party never supported decentralisation. The Senator's time is up.

I am watching politics for a long time because I was interested when I was very young and I have never seen a bigger con job pulled on the people than the announcement of decentralisation in the last budget. As I said in my opening remarks, there was nothing in last year's budget, but the Minister brought up decentralisation in order to cover the absence of anything else. Now, the big announcement from last year's budget, namely, decentralisation, has been grounded. The ship has been holed beneath the water line, so to speak. Contrary to what Senators Mansergh and Leyden or anyone may say about it, what was promised in this Chamber last year will not be delivered. Those who promised it knew at the time that it could not be delivered. No matter what Senator Leyden says to me or my party about our stance on decentralisation, it has not changed.

I will prove it has. I have the facts.

Senator Phelan is eating into Senator Feighan's time.

I am glad we have had this debate on decentralisation because it is an issue which will excite many people in towns throughout the country.

I thank Senator Phelan for sharing his time with me. I called for a debate on decentralisation a little over a year ago, and I come from an area which welcomed any kind of decentralisation. I come from Boyle, which was promised decentralisation. We were told not to ask the hard questions and were promised that everything would be fine. Despite a town site for decentralisation being offered for nothing, Boyle was let down because there was no Minister in that constituency. I contended all along that if a Minister lived in a particular constituency he or she would deliver decentralisation there no matter what criteria were set down. This has happened once again and it is wrong.

What Minister has Carrick-on-Shannon?

Decentralisation could and should have been a major force for change. I welcome any decentralisation to Carrick-on-Shannon. However, three times the number of jobs being delivered were promised to my constituency. The Minister of State has not delivered on his promise.

That is the Senator's constituency — he is lucky.

Senator Feighan without interruption.

Decentralisation could have been a force for change. Following the message from last week's report on the issue, decentralisation is an utter shambles. It is all confusion and a clear deception. That fact cannot be escaped. The Minister of State announced that 10,000 people would decentralise within three years. The figures will not even come close to that. There are firm commitments from 2,000 civil servants despite the promise. I welcome the 2,000, but in politics we have a moral duty to tell the people the truth. Last December the people were hoodwinked. The only difference between this Government and that great highwayman Dick Turpin is that the latter wore a mask. The Government has deceived the people.

Hear, hear.

The people are angry at the contempt the Government has shown for towns and for the entire country. The Minister of State promised 230 jobs to Roscommon. My colleagues and I welcomed those jobs but they will not happen in the lifetime of this Government. They are put back to 2011 and 2012. I do not know. Fine Gael will have to get into power to deliver real jobs for County Roscommon.

Fine Gael cancelled them again as it did before. I have all the details.

The Minister of State should instantly sack whatever Sir Humphrey wrote the speech he delivered today. It states: "With this parallel approach, the OPW will be a decentralisation champion." There are no champions emerging from this decentralisation report, only chumps. The people are annoyed. I am annoyed because I took the report as a commitment last December. Fool as I am in opposition, I took it that this Government meant to deliver 10,000 jobs. It did not. The Minister of State said the plan was ill thought out by that great former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, who was extradited to Europe.

This Government is divided on decentralisation and can do nothing to whitewash the situation or put a gloss on it. The people have been deceived; we have been deceived. These are not the political messages I want to send to constituents. Senator Leyden and the Minister of State know that, as do I. It is a shame that this Government should carry on a deception like this. It will go down in history as one of the greatest deceptions of the Irish people.

The Senator should make his case for Boyle and not knock the system.

I hope that the remainder of this debate will be at a slightly higher level than it has been. I welcome the Minister of State, the progress being made and the fact that decentralisation is on the road. Obviously we must start somewhere. If one adds in the 700 jobs mentioned as priorities to the 3,600 jobs already noted, one is talking of more than 4,000 jobs. That represents a good start within a year of the budget.

It is deception.

I notice that despite what has been said, the majority of the headquarters — one of the issues in the debate — are in the first phase. The Department of Agriculture and Food headquarters will move to Portlaoise, those of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism to Killarney, and those of the Department of Defence to Newbridge.

The Minister of State has proved over the past year that the OPW, for which he has responsibility, will be the decentralisation champion. Trim is a wonderful town in many ways and the OPW is lucky to be moving there. The headquarters of the Department of Social and Family Affairs will move to Drogheda and those of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will move to Wexford. Even some of the more far-flung locations, about which people might feel sceptical, such as Kilrush, Listowel, Clonakilty, Newcastle West and Sligo, are also included. That is a fair cross-section sample of the programme.

The announcement made last week states in paragraph 1(3):

We will report to you again in the spring of 2005 about progress in relation to implementation of the programme. We will also deal in that report with the locations and organisations not covered in this report.

I warmly compliment Mr. Phil Flynn on the work that he and his group have been doing.

Did he deliver in Tipperary?

He has been translating decentralisation into practice.

Why does he have to translate it? If it were done correctly it would not need to be translated.

In order for decentralisation to be put into effect, partnership consultation is very important. This is a social partnership Government, as its predecessors have been. Assurances are required. There is, particularly in the Civil Service, a very good level of volunteers for a lot of the locations.

I would like to turn to Tipperary since it was mentioned.

It is a long way to Tipperary.

If I have one criticism of the Minister and the list he published, it is that he ignored the Private Security Authority which was opened by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on 28 October last. Incidentally, in his speech——

It was not part of the decentralisation.

It was something extra which is splendid. People in Tipperary are delighted to see the old Garda barracks, the Department of Agriculture and Food offices and former Royal Irish Constabulary barracks refurbished to a high standard to accommodate the new Private Security Authority. Advertisements have been placed for a chief executive who is likely to be recruited in January. A Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform official is working there two days per week. I am glad the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is driving decentralisation to Tipperary as I would be very concerned if he was not. He said this was the first of a number of moves to County Tipperary by agencies from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform family.

This may be a presentational problem but there was a reference to Thurles in the Flynn report. It was not included in the list but there was a paragraph about it. It is a kind of hybrid decentralisation. It stated that a total of 200 people from Garda headquarters are due to relocate to Thurles and this includes approximately 115 Civil Service jobs, so one is talking about gardaí and civil servants. It stated that the Central Applications Facility data indicate there is a high level of interest in Thurles among civil servants. It recommended that the Garda Commissioner prepare a joint implementation plan with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform dealing with the overall move and that the plan should be submitted by 14 February 2005 and should include an implementation time with a phased time lapse. That reinforces the point made that the Minister and the Department are driving this process.

More waffle.

The notion that nothing is happening in Tipperary could not be further from the truth.

There is also the issue of Roscrea. Senators opposite may remember that we recently passed the Garda Ombudsman Bill which provides for a Garda Ombudsman's office. I suppose, strictly speaking and if one is being pedantic about it, it is not decentralisation because a new office is being established. One could say the same of the Private Security Authority. However, part of the decentralisation policy announced last year was that when new agencies were being established, they would be established, by preference, outside the capital which is happening. I have spoken to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and to the officials driving the decentralisation programme in the Department and I am very confident that all the decentralisation plans announced under that Department will happen.

Another fallacy in interpretation is the notion——

Tipperary is going to win the All-Ireland as well.

I spent 20 minutes on the radio this morning and I think people were very happy when I finished.

It is a fallacy to think that only those moves mentioned in the announcement will happen by 2008 and that everything else will happen afterwards. Ministers and Departments are driving the process forward and if I know the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and his Department, they will drive it forward. It has nothing to do with whether there is a Minister in south Tipperary.

The Minister climbed up a pole to keep an eye on Fianna Fáil.

The Minister has shown his good faith in the programme by opening this Private Security Authority in Tipperary town at the end of October.

In the Budget Statement, there is no mention of a three-year timeframe. That was said outside the Dáil, not in it. Clearly, that was——

——somewhat over-optimistic. Given the amount of work done and progress made, I would not use that to condemn the programme as a shambles or anything of the kind. Once people can see that the programme is going to roll, it will encourage further interest among those who may have been hanging back to see if it was really going to happen.

My colleague, Senator Leyden, referred to the record of the parties opposite on decentralisation. I was involved in the Leader's office 20 years ago and remember a decentralisation programme was announced in 1981 but it was promptly cancelled when Fine Gael and the Labour Party came into office. The same happened in 1982. It was part of The Way Forward but it was promptly cancelled. It was only when Ray MacSharry returned as Minister for Finance in the late 1980s——

It was promised again.

Decentralisation was introduced then as a cost saving measure — as an economy — because costs were less down the country.

I wish to deal with this nonsense about the national spatial strategy and decentralisation. I have said before, but it clearly needs to be repeated, that this was a very clear commitment given. It is a promise being delivered from the last election. The Fianna Fáil manifesto stated that it would complete and implement the national spatial strategy aimed at building up the strength of all regions. It further stated that it would continue its commitment to the progressive decentralisation of Government offices and agencies and that it recognised the particular importance of this programme to well-placed and substantial towns that do not have a lot of industrial employment.

Why is Fianna Fáil reneging on the promises?

Allow Senator Mansergh to speak without interruption.

I do not think it was Fine Gael policy that decentralisation should only have gone to places which were hubs and gateways. I remember the chairman of the Fine Gael parliamentary party circulating a note around various business offices almost the moment the announcement was made. I did not detect any objection, in principle——

Does the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, have the posters ready for tomorrow evening?

——that Tipperary was not a hub or a gateway. The Buchanan report recommended concentrating all development in a few large centres but people both inside and outside this House need to be reminded that this country is a democracy. Towns are not willing to allow their prospects to be written off.

The Senator goes through Parlon country every evening going home.

The national spatial strategy mentioned decentralisation once and only in passing. It was primarily about the private sector activity — industry, services and infrastructure — which was needed. Decentralisation is complementary to the national spatial strategy. In any case, if one thinks about it, not all activity is concentrated in gateways and hubs with no activity elsewhere. A hub means that things go on around it and a gateway means that things pass through it and do not get stuck under the gateway.

I thank Senator Mansergh for the lecture.

Nearly all the hubs and gateways have experienced decentralisation from previous programmes.

If one considers the entire decentralisation programme, including past actions and the present scheme, it constitutes a well-balanced programme. I am aware of the significant difference that an announcement of decentralisation and the prospect of its implementation has made to Tipperary town. A number of major investments have been made——

Its timing has also been significant.

The prospect of decentralisation has given great confidence to the area. The Opposition is completely misreading the situation——

That is rubbish.

——if its members continue to criticise the programme. They are not doing their areas any service——

The Government made false promises.

——by encouraging people to moan and worry. The programme is making good progress and I again congratulate the Minister of State on the progress made during the year.

That is nonsense.

I encourage the Minister of State to continue in the same vein and look forward to the second round of announcements next March.

This is my fourth time to participate in a debate on this issue. These debates included one in this House and three at committee level. Senator Mansergh has no right to criticise Senator John Paul Phelan and others for the low level of debate. I sat through the previous debate in this House and appealed to Members on both sides to take a rational, constructive and philosophical view on our approach to this matter. I have been consistently supportive of decentralisation. I also listened to Senator Leyden speak during the previous debate. Senator John Paul Phelan would not be doing his duty as a public representative if he did not analyse that speech and tear it to pieces. That is what it deserved.

That is not true.

This is what brought the issue to a new low. If we are lucky enough to get something for our constituencies, it occasions a speech at constituency level. When the issue is discussed in this House, we should at least make an attempt to address it from a national perspective.

I did both.

That is true. I have no criticism of the broad view Senator Mansergh took on the issue. That is the way to proceed, by looking at both the local and national aspects.

Hear, hear.

However, the public is entirely confused about the matter.

On the other hand, I am somewhat in agreement with the Government's position. I do not understand Fine Gael's position on this issue. There is only one position on decentralisation and that is to be completely supportive.

That is right.

The approach I would take if I were an Opposition Member, and which I am tempted to take as an Independent, is to put the Government to the board each month to tell us how many new jobs have been brought forward. The Minister of State knows I raised such a proposal in the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. I will be seeking this information on a monthly basis in an attempt to determine the progress being made. This data should be measured as we go along.

One wonders if Senator O'Toole received any confirmation that this information would be available.

I pleaded with the Minister of State during the previous debate in this House to admit that the decentralisation programme could not be done in three years. I contended that the timescale, which was unattainable, represented the worst aspect of the scheme and would bring the project into disrepute. This afforded an opportunity for the Government to admit the programme could not be implemented in three years but that it would put its best foot forward and see what could be achieved. I congratulate Mr. Phil Flynn on the work he has done. He and his colleagues have considered the matter carefully and offered a strategy for success. I welcome his proposal, although it does not do enough. I would like to see more of the same.

We are not looking at this in the same way as the Minister of State may have done in his previous life. It is a question of urban-rural balance. On a philosophical level, I completely support the idea of decentralisation and endorse the notion of more Civil Service and public service jobs around the country. Moreover, I do not have a difficulty with people moving from Clonmel to Killorglin, for example. This creates new jobs in a particular location and the more flexibility that is built into the system the better. However, it is also fair for Senator John Paul Phelan to say that such moves do not constitute decentralisation. Semantically, it is provincialism rather than decentralisation but there is nothing wrong with that. I welcome such movements as a positive change.

The situation is akin to that of electronic voting. It is a great idea that has been destroyed because people have lost confidence in it. I agree with Senator Mansergh that the announcement of decentralisation to a town or area brought a great burst of optimism, encouragement, enthusiasm and confidence, and drew additional employment and investment possibilities into the localities. However, we must consider all those towns that were not on the list last week. They have gone up the hill and down again. This is unfair and should not have happened.

Hear, hear.

Such an eventuality was entirely predictable and people have been left disappointed. I am not speaking of Deputies and Senators but of local community activists, local urban councils, tidy towns committees, tourism committees and development groups. They have been assessing sites and considering whether sufficient accommodation is available for the decentralised facilities. I have visited three of those towns in the past six months, one of which has come through on the final list while the other two have not.

One can only imagine the effects of having the rug pulled from under people in these localities after waiting so long for decentralisation. This cannot be right. Situations such as these drag all politics down and the strategy becomes merely another political promise. It is fair enough for Senator Mansergh to observe that previous Governments of different complexions have promised a decentralisation strategy but did not deliver. This is a fair political point. It is fair enough for Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats to say on this occasion that they are going to deliver. If they succeed in doing so by the next election, they are entitled to say that they presented a policy and achieved it to a verifiable extent.

However, a year ago, the Government promised to deliver 10,000 decentralised jobs in three years. It does not help the situation to conduct long debates in which the Government claims it did not really promise a three-year timeframe. The Government trumpeted that timeframe to the extent that it was mentioned in every discussion of the issue. I recall exactly the words that were spoken in this House and I know what people understood the Minister of State to mean. His quotes in the last week are correct. We have diagnosed all this before. I put the question to the Minister of State on two occasions whether he would put on the record that the programme could not be achieved in three years. He refused to do so. This is not about weasel words or an attempt to sort people out. The important issue is that we have failed people.

There was a significant debate in the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service on the question of State agencies. I told the Minister of State I had been in consultation with the relevant trade union, which indicated what was achievable in that sector. The trade union representatives raised issues that must be apparent to anyone and to Members of all parties. I welcome what the Minister of State has said today but one wonders why the amended programme had to be handed down by Mr. Flynn. The Minister of State is a bright man and can see these difficulties as clearly as I can. Why did nobody in the Government stand up and admit that it had taken a second look at the programme and realised that a longer timeframe was necessary?

One does not need to go to the wire in saying that it will take two, three, four years or whatever. I agree with the Minister of State that the timeframe does not matter. If foundations are being laid and other preparations made in a town, its residents will be aware that building may take two years and another two for employees to commence work. They can live on that hope. I would prefer to see a six-year plan implemented. People will believe that plans will actually be realised once they see progress has begun. It is in this area that the trust and confidence has been lost.

It is also fair to say that this change has given sustenance to what I call the "Dublin view", which envisages little outside the Pale. This is the perception that it is untenable to send people as far as Naas, never mind Kilkenny, Listowel, Killarney or Killorglin. The Minister of State is aware there is a strongly held view in Dublin that it is impossible to send people that far. The people who express this view include some who grew up as far from Dublin as I did. A couple of years in Dublin changes their attitude completely. It is important that we make this work. We must point out to many people in Dublin that the quality of life in provincial Ireland is every bit as good as in Dublin, and better in many cases.

Hand in hand with this proposal must go the necessary improvements to meet the infrastructure deficit. Senator MacSharry, who has spoken eloquently on this issue, must be given total confidence in the future prospect of a rail service to Sligo on an hourly basis. We will say we have a train service when we do not have to look at a timetable because we know that the train leaves at 17 minutes past the hour every hour. This must be our objective.

There will not be a difficulty recruiting staff for provincial locations. In the last decentralisation programme, the number of people who applied to move to Listowel was four times the requirement. It might be argued that some of those applying were based in Limerick. So what? Their moving to Listowel would create jobs in Limerick for others. What is important is that jobs be created in Listowel, Kilrush and Newcastle West. Eighteen months ago, I spoke in the House about a proposal from the urban councils in Listowel, Kilrush and Newcastle West to link the three towns in a development package. The package has worked to the benefit of all three towns. There is no difficulty recruiting people in those towns. There is little difficulty in persuading staff in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism to go to Killarney. There has been increasing interest in that location recently. When people move to smaller towns they will not go back to Dublin.

I ask politicians to have confidence in decentralisation. I cannot blame the Opposition for having a go on this issue. It has been seriously misled. Important points have been made by Opposition speakers and a political row must take place on this issue. However, once the political points have been made, I ask people to look at the broader issue and at the philosophy of urban-rural balance. We must allow people to experience the quality of life in provincial Ireland.

This morning we heard of a report from the BMW region which shows that people in Connacht spend approximately one quarter of the time commuting compared with those in Dublin. These are important issues. I recently spoke to someone who had changed jobs and now, instead of spending two and a half hours per day commuting, he spends half an hour. He suddenly finds himself with an additional two hours in every day. He has ten hours, more than a day, per week free. There are things we can offer but other things must be done to make them possible.

Today on the Order of Business, Senator Kitt brought to the attention of the House the new rail commuter service between Athlone and Galway. Developments such as this are as important as the decentralisation programme. They give a quality to decentralisation. Someone who lives on that railway line can work or go shopping in Galway without having to worry about driving or parking. The same needs to be done on the Sligo to Limerick line. Such developments are all part of decentralisation. Regional airports must also be supported. Instead of making a political row, we should all get behind this movement.

I ask for complete openness from the Government on the issue. I ask Government to tell us the problems before someone like Mr. Phil Flynn must unearth them and bring them to our attention. Can we not look at the question like reasonably open people with creative minds, see how it can best be done and make it work? Decentralisation is crucial for the future of the country. No public representative in his or her right mind could opt against it.

My colleagues who represent the Dublin area and who object to decentralisation remind me of the reactive view to traffic bypasses which was prevalent in rural Ireland 15 years ago. Dublin people, in general, are in favour of decentralisation. However, the voluntarism, which the Government now says is part of the programme, must be clearly emphasised. If it had been a central part of the debate from the beginning that no one would be forced to move and that arrangements would be made to ensure that families were not split up, there would have been much less trouble from the representative unions of the workers involved. Anyone could have foreseen these difficulties. The Minister of State and people on both sides of the House must have foreseen them. If such fears had been dealt with from the beginning we might have proceeded to a debate on the philosophy and the rights and wrongs of what we are trying to do. The Government came up with a good idea and then left the door wide open to ten solid arguments against making it happen. They included the timeframe, the family issue and the question of whether or not people would be forced, whether by whitemail or blackmail, into moving. Objectors lined up to take on the Government. We must make sure that people trust what they hear from politicians.

Those towns where decentralised Departments or agencies are located will derive a significant bonus, which has not been properly quantified. I ask the Minister of State to examine the spin-offs of decentralisation. New communities will be built. Football teams, drama clubs and local theatres and cinemas will all benefit. Decentralisation involves more than commercial development, selling houses and shopping. It also involves improving the quality of life.

The Government has utterly mishandled the issue although the Minister of State has played a blinder in the past fortnight. The media have not laid a glove on him. He has come through unscathed.

The artful dodger.

He is the artful dodger. He has played a blinder, however he did it. I accept that he did not know about decentralisation before last year's Budget Statement. I believe Senator Phelan was mistaken in what he said. However, the Senator was right to underline what had previously been said in the House. It had to be analysed and proven.

We must look at the importance of urban-rural balance and of infrastructure. All of Ireland can get its place in the sun. Decentralisation is a good idea and must be properly handled. We must consider the views of the workers' representatives and listen to what the unions have to say. We can meet most of their demands. We must look at the family requirements of the people involved in the programme. We can meet those demands. We must recognise that agencies cannot, in the main, be decentralised in the same way as Departments. Taking all of these factors together we must set a timescale which is deliberate and clear and goes beyond three or four years. I would like to see all starting times within the next ten years.

When I spoke on this question on a previous occasion I said we should hope to have the programme completed in not less than ten years. It could not be done earlier than that. That would be a reasonable objective which people could support. I would support it.

There was an election last year.

If we are to be governed by elections the project will fall apart.

That is the problem.

It is bigger than that. I wish decentralisation well. I hope the Government's mishandling of it has come to an end and that the Minister of State will listen this time to some of what Opposition Members have to say. If he does not, Mr. Phil Flynn will tell him the same thing in six months time. Meanwhile, I wish the Minister of State good luck with the media. They cannot lay a hand on him.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate him on his reappointment as Minister of State at the Department of Finance.

He can use the same posters.

He is a driving force to ensure that decentralisation takes place.

He will.

From his experience as president of a major nationwide organisation, he knows the needs of rural Ireland. I know of no better person to assist in this regard. In last year's budget Deputy McCreevy had the commitment and foresight to ensure that Ireland gains an urban-rural balance by announcing details of a major decentralisation programme. This was a monumental and far-reaching decision because for the first time entire Departments and their Ministers were moved outside Dublin. This did not happen in previous decentralisation announcements. Some eight Departments and their staff are to be moved outside Dublin, which gives weight and credibility to the national spatial strategy. The latter strategy was not the only one that had to be followed, however. Towns within the national spatial strategy have been included, as well as those that were not, including Roscommon.

The Senator should cut to the chase and get to Roscommon.

The historic announcement means that towns——

What about the derailment outside Roscommon?

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

I will come to Senator Finucane in a moment. If he wants to leave now, my advice is to go soon because I am coming to the crunch.

Newcastle West is okay. Tell us about the derailment.

This is the build up. I agree with Senator O'Toole whose approach has been most constructive. Mr. Phil Flynn was appointed to oversee the implementation of the programme, not to unearth anything about it. Let us get that right. I would like to have seen the PIAB relocated outside Dublin as well. It would have been a help.

It would have been established earlier except that the Senator's party delayed it in the House.

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

That is grossly unfair.

It was established before this.

The Opposition has been trying to destabilise and derail the process of reviving the regions over the past 12 months. The previous decentralisation programme involved the relocation of approximately 4,000 public service jobs. The programme announced last year is far more radical involving a total of 10,300 Civil Service and public service jobs——

Every cumann member.

——to 53 centres in 25 counties. The Opposition does not want it.

That will haunt the Senator.

We promised it.

Senator Leyden did not get it.

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

The Opposition is doing everything it can to oppose it but we will have it. Ireland needs decentralisation which will benefit all involved in the regions, the public service and the general public. The programme announced last year complements and builds on the process of previous decentralisation initiatives which employed over 4,000 people in 20 decentralised offices.

I never thought Senator Leyden would need a script.

Please let Senator Leyden continue.

I feel sorry for Roscommon.

I was going to hold on for a bit more but I will not. Seeing that the Senators want it, I have decided I must now come to the crucial point. Do Opposition Senators remember a previous leader of Fine Gael, a great man called Alan Dukes?

His record stands both in this House and the Lower House, and with the public too.

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

Alan Dukes was ditched, like John Bruton. Fine Gael ditched all the good leaders.

See what happened to the Senator.

Alan Dukes was a man of great foresight with the Tallaght strategy.

This has a lot to do with decentralisation.

He is coming to the point.

In December 1983, which is not long ago——

It is 21 years ago.

——former Deputy John Wilson confronted the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Alan Dukes — the Iron Duke — as to why the decentralisation project agreed in 1980 was being shelved. Mr. Dukes, a Fine Gael Minister, said——

He did not promise 10,000 jobs and have to renege on them.

He told the truth.

He said:

The results on the concentration of population and the quality of life, both in over-populated and under-populated areas, are matters on which I and many others agree. We can see the ill effect of both situations. The decentralisation programme would have cost a further £45 million and that was a material consideration which had to be taken into account. It was one of the main factors in cancelling the programme, which led to our decision not to go ahead with the programme.

That is the legacy of Fine Gael.

There is logic for you.

When Fine Gael went into Government it announced a major decentralisation programme.

We heard it from the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, today.

Fine Gael cannot disown its former leader. The party removed him, sacked him and got rid of him, but he said——

A former leader of Fianna Fáil disowned Senator Leyden. He knows that well.

——"we have decided not to go ahead with the decentralisation scheme".

Who said that?

That was said by Alan Dukes and not too long ago.

He told the truth. Senator Leyden could learn a thing or two about telling the truth.

I have further quotations. Garret FitzGerald, the man who brought Fine Gael to tax children's shoes——

(Interruptions).

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

He begged Senator Mary O'Rourke to walk down Grafton Street with him to check those children's shoes.

The Senator should talk about Roscommon.

He said: "Will you come down Grafton Street and work this out?"

The Senator is waffling.

He went on his knees to the late Jim Kemmy and begged him to keep them in Government at that particular time. I was there. I walked into the lobby with Jim Kemmy and we brought that Government down, thanks be to God. If that Government had not been brought down, the 3,500 jobs that went at that time would still be here in Dublin, thanks to Fine Gael and the little Labour Party that was a part of it.

After Fianna Fáil's 77 promises we got more promises.

Democratic Left, the Labour Party and Fine Gael went into power in the morning and derailed the 10,000 jobs agreed by the Government.

That had happened already. Did the Senator not see what happened last week? Has he been reading anything?

What 10,000 is he talking about?

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

In 1992, when I was in the other House, I got agreement to bring the General Register Office to Roscommon town. That was just before the general election.

And they voted him out.

He was booted out.

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

It has now become a reality. The Minister will be down in Roscommon to complete the job and open the new General Register Office at the Convent of Mercy site in Roscommon.

This Government could not open a cow shed.

It will bring 230 jobs to Roscommon. We are bringing all the goods together.

We know where Roscommon is.

The Minister of State might inform us of the date on which he will be opening the offices. I think it will be in March 2005.

Promises, promises. That is what we are talking about.

Senator Leyden, without interruption.

The General Register Office is a major boost for Roscommon. Garret FitzGerald said it was most unfortunate that decision was ever made because it would be so difficult for those travelling by train, including researchers, who would have to go all the way to Roscommon——

Senator Leyden still did not get to the promise.

When will he deliver on last year's promises?

——to find out all about the genealogical situation of their ancestry. What a major boost when such people want to research their family trees but the good Garret said "We do not want it going to Roscommon". What a great contribution from the former leader of Fine Gael who resigned some years ago. John Bruton was not in favour of it, as Minister for Finance.

Nonsense.

I beg your pardon.

Garret FitzGerald told the truth. This Government did not tell the truth.

Please allow Senator Leyden to continue.

Senator Feighan joined the wrong party when he got into politics. He should have jumped back to Fianna Fáil where he came from.

I ask Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark.

He cannot deny he was a Fianna Fáil supporter.

I want Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

What was the remark?

The remark referred to the party I came from. I want Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark. I come from a Fine Gael background and I am proud of it.

Fair enough. I am glad the Senator made that statement.

I want the remark to be withdrawn.

I do not have to withdraw it. The Senator made the statement himself.

I want that remark to be withdrawn.

Senator Leyden, will you withdraw it?

It is not a matter of withdrawing it. The Senator should be very proud that he ever thought about Fianna Fáil.

I want that remark to be withdrawn.

Will Senator Leyden correct the record for Senator Feighan?

I accept the Senator's clarification of that situation.

Okay, continue please.

That is not good enough. I want the remark withdrawn.

That the Senator was never a member of Fianna Fáil?

I want that remark withdrawn.

I do not know whether the Senator was. I do not have the records. I would have to go back to the cumann but I understand he would be well disposed towards Fianna Fáil.

That is not good enough, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Can Senator Leyden correct the record for Senator Feighan?

I want that remark withdrawn.

Can Senator Leyden withdraw it?

I am satisfied that the information given by the Senator is accurate.

I want the Senator to withdraw that remark.

Senator Leyden, can you withdraw it for the record of the House?

He has stated clearly that he was never a supporter and I accept that.

No. I want Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark.

Senator Leyden, can you correct the record — that Senator Feighan was not a member of, or did not come from, Fianna Fáil?

I do not know but I will accept his word.

Senator Leyden said he was.

We are going off the rails now. This is rather irrelevant.

The Senator is reading misinformation into the record of the House and he should not be allowed to continue doing so. He is bringing misinformation into the Chamber.

This is irrelevant. I said it would have been a great career move.

Can you correct it, Senator Leyden?

I have corrected it. I said it would be a great career move if he joined Fianna Fáil.

Senator Leyden, can you withdraw the remark?

What can I withdraw?

I want Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark.

The Senator is asked to withdraw that to correct the record.

He was never a member of Fianna Fáil.

I want Senator Leyden to withdraw that remark.

Senator Leyden knows exactly what he said.

I withdraw any possible allegation that he ever was a card-carrying member of Fianna Fáil.

What would be wrong with that?

It would have been a good career move for him to have joined Fianna Fáil and he would be in a party about which he would feel more comfortable. I have outlined what happened in the past and the involvement of Fine Gael and the Labour Party in scrapping decentralisation. If they got back in the morning they would scrap it.

Like Pinocchio, the Senator's nose is getting longer.

Some 230 jobs are coming to Roscommon——

Christmas is coming too.

—— under the decentralisation programme in the Land Registry.

In what year was that promised?

The site has been obtained. I hope that in spring 2005, Phil Flynn will announce——

The Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, will announce it.

The report will come to the Minister of State. When the Minister of State comes to open that site, I hope Senator Feighan will also be there.

I will be there.

The Senator would have been well advised if he had outlined in more detail the tremendous offer by the people of Boyle to provide a free site for decentralisation. I will pursue that matter with him.

A site was offered in Waterford and the Government also scrapped the plan to relocate 500 people there.

Decentralisation will come to Carrick-on-Shannon——

The Government has done nothing for us.

——Longford, Athlone, Mullingar and Loughrea.

The Senator should conclude.

I wish I had more time to go into detail. I require injury time because I was distracted.

I have already given the Senator injury time.

In tomorrow's budget the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, will confirm the major allocations to ensure decentralisation takes place. We will deliver.

The Government was supposed to deliver 10,000 decentralised jobs in three years.

A lot done, more to do.

Some 3.5 million people done.

Some 10,300 people will be relocated, 230 of whom will be to Roscommon. I am proud of the Government's record. I am proud of the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats coalition. We will survive. I do not believe the Opposition wants to hear the truth about Mr. Dukes and Fine Gael, because the truth hurts.

We all heard about the Senator's interview on a local radio station in Roscommon when he did not praise the Government.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House for this very important debate. Apart from the waste of time in the past ten minutes, this is a very important debate. I hope we can concentrate on the main issues at hand. I listened carefully to the speech made by the Minister of State. Unfortunately he has not addressed our major concern, which is the decline in the number of decentralised posts from 10,000 to 3,500 and what will happen to the missing numbers. We now have a decentralisation programme, which has as its target the relocation of no more than 3,500 civil servants. It is time to stop pretending that any more than that number will be relocated.

I have read the implementation report published last week and the press release issued by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen. The Minister in that statement, and the Minister of State today, have been quite clear in what they say. However, let us remember our new starting point. Since last week we now have a decentralisation programme for 3,500 civil servants.

Fewer people will be decentralised.

At the most, 3,500 people will be decentralised over a number of years. What was announced last December has gone and no longer exists. To a large extent it never existed in the first place as has now become very clear. This is a severe blow to the towns of Roscrea and Thurles in my area. The Minister of State will be familiar with Roscrea as he lives very close to it. Roscrea has disappeared from the decentralisation map. The Civil Defence project is separate from the decentralisation programme. Having read the speeches of the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Cowen, and the implementation reports, neither Roscrea nor Thurles appear anywhere.

A reference is made to Thurles, stating that the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will have a little chat about the town sometime, somewhere, maybe. However, that is not enough as no target is set for Thurles and it is not mentioned in the programme. Like other counties, Tipperary has simply disappeared from the Government's decentralisation plans. Any attempt to suggest otherwise is not true. It is a case of live horse and eat grass, maybe some day. I am quite clear that it simply will not happen under this Administration, which is a real pity.

Like other speakers, I actually believed what the Government announced last December. Many other people also believed this, including the local authorities, which started to plan. Other agencies, chambers of commerce and people in communities throughout the country started to prepare for decentralisation. However, it was never a real plan. How could it be? How could so many people be decentralised in that period of time? As Senator Leyden said, he announced the Roscommon decentralisation shortly before the general election in 1992, which was no coincidence. I remind the Senator that was 12 years ago. However, the much more ambitious programme announced by the then Minister for Finance last year was to happen in a much shorter timeframe. In reality it was never going to happen.

Let us consider the impact of this change. Decentralisation is very good for towns because more people come to live in a town and decision-making also becomes decentralised. However, decentralisation needs to be planned and carried out in a coherent and integrated fashion. It could not have been done in the way the Government announced last December.

As I live in a regional town, Nenagh, I know that apart from the economic benefit for a town and a region, real decentralisation would create real promotion prospects within a county. The decentralisation of an entire Department will allow a person starting at a clerical or other lower-grade level to aspire to be promoted within the region or county. The scattered nature of the decentralisation programme gives rise to a particular problem. For example, in many cases those working for the Revenue Commissioners in Nenagh who get promoted effectively must leave. Many such people have told me that they end up commuting to Dublin for years in the hope that they will be transferred back to Nenagh, Limerick or Port Laoise. More decentralised offices throughout the country would offer more career options without the necessity for dreadful commuting.

I wish to ask the Minister of State a question. He referred to report of the Central Applications Facility, CAF. Why are the Revenue Commissioners not included in the CAF?

They are.

I can speak to the Minister of State separately about the matter. My information is that at least some sections of the Revenue Commissioners are not using the CAF. For some individuals this might be causing a difficulty. Having a central applications facility should mean that either everybody is in or nobody is in. Otherwise two streams are operating and some Departments can be selective about whom they do and do not have. For the sake of fairness to the public servants involved, it is important that all applications go into the one facility.

I come back to the impact on the wider public in Roscrea and Thurles. From talking to people I know there is not only disappointment and disbelief, as other speakers have said, although we might not have thought it possible, it has engendered even greater cynicism about political decisions and when political announcements are made. There is no doubt that last December's announcement was specifically timed with six months to go to the local elections. The Government side will dispute that but there is objective evidence that was the case. To be that cynical about people's futures and about towns such as Roscrea and Thurles is appalling. We are talking about real people and communities.

The Minister of State knows that the midlands have not done as well as other parts of the State. While some towns are doing well economically, they do not match the level of growth and expansion in cities and larger towns. There have been many job losses in midland towns in recent years and that has had an impact. Decentralisation would have levelled the playing field and people would have felt that they were getting a share.

The decentralisation map now, however, concentrates on the area around the Pale within easy commuting distance of Dublin. The Government is doing that because it is easy to deliver in the short-term. It is within commuting distance and it is more likely that civil servants will take it because they can still live in Dublin and commute to Drogheda or Navan. Those areas that are doing well will do better and those areas that need to do better will not, they will not get the leg up that would have meant so much.

Others have mentioned balanced regional development, which has become a cliché. I welcome the announcement by Ryanair that it is to invest in Shannon Airport and I hope it works because the region needs a lift. If Shannon Airport develops, there are exciting prospects for tourism and the economy. If it does not work, however, there will be serious consequences. In terms of what the Government can deliver, decentralisation is a powerful tool that could help balanced regional development and this was a missed opportunity.

Entire areas have been left out and only 3,500 civil servants will now be decentralised. I appeal to the Minister of State to go back to the drawing board. Mr. Phil Flynn has delivered implementation reports that are well thought out and costed — it was interesting to see how long it will take to make this break even financially. There is a strong case to be made, however, for rolling out a balanced regional programme, even if it is over a longer period, to move beyond the Pale to areas like the Minister of State's own county. Is this the way the programme will continue and will we be completely left out? Is there any prospect of getting back in or will it never happen? What happens now will determine what the next Government will be able to do. There will be a new Government after the next election but what happens now will limit the choices of that next Administration.

The scenario now is very different. The electorate is even more cynical and towns have been let down. Roscrea and Thurles will not receive any decentralised Department and will suffer the resultant economic impact. Unfortunately, this is yet another broken Government promise, a sorry state of affairs.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for the comprehensive speech he gave. It is a script we should keep because it is very detailed.

The former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, established the decentralisation process a year ago. We always criticise Ministers for not laying out their objectives and working towards them but he set out his stall and tried to achieve his goals. There was nothing wrong with laying out the grand design of where we want to go with decentralisation. I applaud his vision. Too many are willing to run away from what he said. He laid out the plan and said that it showed where we wanted to go. A decentralisation committee was set up under Mr. Phil Flynn, with whom I had regular dealings when I was Minister for Public Enterprise. If there is a way to do something, he will find it.

The next step was to work backwards towards the realisation of what we hope to do and this is what the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, has laid out for us today. We were constructive in setting up the implementation group. The press releases last week were not sufficiently positive, however, this is not the end of decentralisation but the beginning. It should have been presented in a more positive manner.

With so many spin doctors, it is a surprise that it did not get more positive coverage.

I know about decentralisation. At the end of the 1960s and beginning of the 1970s, when my brother was the Minister for Education, Athlone benefited from the transfer of over 400 Department of Education civil servants. There was no great fanfare, they came and loved the town. They are all settled in now, rearing families who go to local schools and college, they are part of the fabric of Athlone. When I entered Government in March 1987, Senator MacSharry's father brought to the table the decentralisation proposals that had been put on ice since the previous Government under Dr. Garret FitzGerald. The then Minister for Finance, former Deputy Ray MacSharry, laid out the towns to which Departments would be decentralised and Athlone was included again. I was Minister for Education at the time and a further 240 civil servants came to Athlone. I heard no cribs or people saying they did not want to go to Athlone. They were happy to go there and relished moving to a thriving town on a wonderful river with fine facilities. I am glad Athlone has been included a third time for more civil servants in the Department of Education and Science. It is the educational centre of Ireland. Clonmacnoise, the famed scholastic establishment is eight miles away and we are happy to don the mantle of scholastic achievement and be a centre for education.

The Government Senators are reminiscing tonight.

I am telling the House what happened, there is no reminiscence about it. The Department of Education and Science is there, phase one happened under Brian Lenihan and phase two happened under me. I am not reminiscing, I am telling the truth.

This Government is committed to providing jobs for rural areas. Yesterday, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment announced 170 jobs in the triangle of Roscommon, Athlone and Longford. It is a small number of jobs but there is huge potential for growth because they are involved in marketing and research and development. I assume Senator Bannon was happy about that.

I will refer to that later.

There is something discordant about this debate. From the very beginning, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, and the Taoiseach consistently said the scheme would be voluntary. It would be impossible to exert pressure in a matter such as this. It must be voluntary, of necessity. Therefore, one must move ahead with those who have applied. To demand what will happen to a particular town if people have not applied for it is to remove the voluntary aspect. I fully applaud the fact that it should be voluntary and will continue to support that approach. In that way people will want to go to a particular area and make their homes there. I understand that there are people who cannot move for various reasons including family, care of old people, education, etc. That is understood and there is no pressure on such people to move. That would be to move away from the core idea of decentralisation.

The Minister of State came in for much flak when he said, "Welcome to Parlon country". I knew him in another guise, and that is the nature of the man. He is exuberant and outgoing and wanted to express his delight at the announcement.

It was out the night before the budget.

Athlone, Tullamore and Mullingar are the three towns which form the apex of the strategy, where the education jobs are to be located. Athlone is willing to extend its mantle of education to the other two towns and allow them to share in its success. Everyone on the Opposition side is moaning, but I notice in the Minister of State's speech how many Departments are being decentralised. The Departments of Social and Family Affairs, Arts, Sport and Tourism, Defence, Education and Science, Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Agriculture and Food and the Office of Public Works are all included in the initial phase. I am referring to the headquarters of those Departments. This is important because inherent in Deputy McCreevy's first announcement on that fateful budget day was that headquarters were to be decentralised so that the policy-making units of Departments could be seen to be part of the rural landscape of Ireland.

I cannot understand why people, knowing that the scheme is voluntary, ask about this town or that. Clearly, people did not want to go to a particular town and, if so, they cannot be forced to go. I realise that Athlone has pushed out the boat and has a record as regards decentralisation and a welcoming approach which was there from the beginning. However, it is advisable for towns to put on their bright clothes, lay out their stalls, show their attractions and what is on offer, in the fullest sense. In response to those who are reluctant to move, I do not know how people live in Dublin all the time. When we Senators do our three our four days work here in the House, I cannot wait to get on the western road home. A newspaper correspondent once asked me what my favourite road in Ireland was and I replied that it was the road home between Dublin and Athlone.

There is little quality of life if one spends an hour in a car trying to get to Dublin from some outlying suburb. That is a akin to the "murder machine", like the education machine of long ago. I left Athlone early this morning and encountered heavy traffic on the M50 and I reflected on having to do this every day of one's life. The roads in rural Ireland are becoming busy, too, but at least one may wake up in the morning and hear the birds singing, if it is spring. One can get to shops and get children to school in comfort and there is no shortage of social activities, clubs, etc. Senator Bannon is nodding appreciatively. Longford is lovely place in which to live.

It is my favourite part of Ireland, as well as Westmeath.

I am sure it is. I notice that the Senator, not wanting to parade up and down the road from Longford to Dublin, has acquired a place in which to lay his head in Dublin. That is good. He does not have to do the long trek from Longford to Dublin all the time. I acquired a place for myself in Dublin many years ago.

The Minister of State's script is a beauty in that it lays out comprehensively what the Department is doing as regards decentralisation and the way it is going about it. I applaud the work that has been done, with so many departmental headquarters being located around the country. I am referring to the work of Mr. Phil Flynn and the OPW in particular. One cannot speak with a forked tongue. Members of the Opposition cannot say they do not really want decentralisation and then ask, almost in the same breath, what happened this or that town. If they want decentralisation they must work hard towards achieving it. I cannot see why people do not like the idea the people who came to Athlone all those years ago, and latterly, are now true Athlonians, or at least their children are. We have enjoyed each other's mutual company over the years and the initiative has been a great success, as I know this will be too.

I am sharing my time with Senator Ulick Burke. As a native of Newcastle West and someone who has championed the cause of decentralisation long before the then Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, made his announcement in December 2003, I welcome the 50 jobs that are going that town. Originally the model encompassed Newcastle West only, and then Shannon Development said we would possibly be successful with a concentration of 150 jobs, if we looked for 50 jobs each for Kilrush, Listowel and Newcastle West. It is important to understand why the take-up has been so significant in Newcastle West, where 109 people have indicated they would like to go. It is significant that only seven people volunteered from the Dublin location. Many of the people who will decentralise to Newcastle West will come from Limerick city and they are people living in the region already. In many cases, people have been coming to me since the announcement, wondering when it is going to happen.

One must go back to the original spirit and concept of decentralisation, as advocated by the Minister for Finance of the time, Deputy McCreevy. He spoke about the chaos within Dublin and the possibility of decentralising all these jobs around the country. I believe he was talking in the context of decentralisation out of Dublin. On that occasion, 10,000 jobs were being relocated. It is significant that this was followed with a degree of ecstasy within the Seanad Chamber. When the announcement came there was a debate in this House on 4 December 2003, and it is significant when one reflects on what happened at the time. Senator Leyden went down memory lane and gave the House a history lesson. He went back 21 years to the time of Deputy Dukes as Minister for Finance and further still to the time of Deputy Garret FitzGerald. I would remind him how wrong he was in asserting that no Government in the history of the State had decentralised 10,500 jobs to the regions and that the strategy would be implemented within three years. I would remind Senator Leyden that not one job will be decentralised by December 2005, as regards what we have been presented with by the Minister of State. That is the reality because it is spelt out in the Minister for Finance's recent publication.

It is three years to 2007.

Three years from December 2002 is December 2005. I am sorry. His statement preceded that. This is 4 December 2002. It must be a mistake. Even maintaining that it is 10,500 jobs in 2007, we all know it is not going to happen.

I am glad a sense of realism is creeping into the debate. It was announced there would be 2,000 jobs in the first phase, 1,320 of which would go to the commuter belt of Dublin. I stayed in Naas one night last week. Having left Naas at 7.30 a.m. it took two hours to get to Leinster House. It was significant that there was a logjam all the way from Naas along the dual carriageway to Dublin and that the traffic flowed freely in the opposite direction. Therefore, I could understand a person from Naas, Newbridge, Portlaoise or Portarlington saying he or she would be far better off to remain in Dublin and commute downwards with the flow of traffic. It is extra chaotic at present owing to the bridge mishap but that will probably be sorted out by the end of December.

I listened to Senator Mansergh earlier. All I can say is that in his press release, the Minister announced it was the first carriage. As far as his community and Tipperary town are concerned it appears to have got derailed at Limerick Junction. It is regrettable that the concept of decentralisation works only if there is the cluster model. The reason it has been successful in Ennis, Kilrush and Newcastle West is that there are 800 jobs in Limerick city, Ennis and Nenagh, within the Revenue cluster, and that there is a certain tier of promotion within the system and an opportunity for advancement. That is the reason is works further away. Within those tiers of the Civil Service there would be movement, say, from the Department of Agriculture and Food in Limerick to Revenue in Newcastle West and so on.

It is significant that the timeframe for semi-State organisations has been pushed out further and to areas such as Birr. I worked in FÁS head office where it is proposed to decentralise 390 jobs. I ask the Minister of State to be real in regard to that proposal as it will not happen. That office has already said that six or seven people have applied. I do not know how 390 jobs can be focused down there. At some stage we must accept that decentralisation is not achievable in a particular area but may be achievable elsewhere and, where it is achievable, the Minister of State should proceed with it. We all wish it well because it is good for the whole country.

What the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, tried to do was over-ambitious. Given that the local elections were taking place in June he considered it would be helpful if he gave enough smarties throughout the country to 53 locations. Senator Leyden said that in Roscommon it was a great political idea and that he would benefit in the local election. In that way he was attributing a political dimension to the process. Politics was involved and the local election was a significant feature in the decisions made.

If civil servants are being decentralised down the country I suggest the cluster model be used as this would allow for promotional opportunities and there will be some degree of success. Our area is a classic example where all three locations have been selected in the first tier. We look forward to that happening.

The Senator's time has expired.

How many minutes remain?

The Senator has exceeded his time. I was very lenient. The Senator has taken six and a half minutes. I do not like to interrupt the Senator.

I will hand over to my colleague, Deputy Ulick Burke. I thought I would be given the same extra latitude other Members had been given.

The Senator has been speaking much sense.

I do not have any objection.

I do not wish to deprive my colleague of time.

I thank Senator Finucane for sharing his time and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, to the House. This time last year the then Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, made the announcement during the budget that 10,300 civil and public servants would be moved out of Dublin to 53 locations by 2007. That was not a target but a commitment given by the then Minister for Finance.

No timescale was referred to in the budget speech or that day.

They are his words.

It happened subsequently.

Decentralisation was the Minister's development policy. We know as a result of the announcement a few days ago by the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, there are 29 centres throughout the country that are disappointed. The Minister of State said that since June 2004 we have had a major development initiative on the line. I welcome the fact that Loughrea is included in the list. How can we be assured those 40 jobs will be delivered within the timeframe announced? Other jobs have been promised but it is only the Department jobs that have been mentioned.

There are three elements of the overall plan that indicate the Government and the Minister of State, in particular, have failed. The decentralisation programme was announced last December without any consultation and that is one of the rocks on which he is perishing. Prior to the announcement there was no consultation. The consultation that has taken place in the meantime clearly indicates it was a matter of asking people if they would go and only one person has indicated an interest in Loughrea. How can the Minister of State continue to pursue an active policy of decentralisation when only one person has indicated an interest? We have been told time and again this evening and also by the Taoiseach that it will not be forced.

The Minister of State's colleague, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, on numerous occasions during her visit to Ballinasloe when three major factories were lost, gave an indication that she had prioritised Ballinasloe as a jobs blackspot and that she would deliver jobs. On two occasions since then, the Government has turned its back on Ballinasloe in regard to the spatial strategy. Senator O'Rourke said there is a triangle of development between Mullingar, Tullamore and Athlone, yet 14 miles down the road Ballinasloe was left outside the loop that would be appropriate for development. Tonight Ballinasloe has again been omitted. If the Government had decided it was to prioritise any particular area for development and inward investment and was serious about any of those issues, it would have said Ballinasloe was one of those areas that has to be developed.

Hear, hear.

On what basis did the Minister of State make his decision on the selection of the 20 moves? Some are the headquarters of Government Departments but prioritisation ranks very low in the Minister of State's vocabulary.

Senator O'Rourke said we moan and groan about towns that have been left out. The people who live in those towns and who expected development and jobs in those areas rightly feel aggrieved. In the next statement she said people did not want to go. They were her words, not mine. There are examples of towns which were allocated Civil Service and public service jobs but where there was a poor indication of interest. Given that the Minister of State has responsibility for this area, what has he done to consult with those people who may wish to move?

Throughout his contribution the Minister of State referred to OPW and the factors affecting delivery. I have great admiration for the OPW. When it does a job it does it well but when has it delivered a project, a building or otherwise, on time and within budget? There are difficulties with the targets set by the Minister of State. It is not always the fault of the OPW that these delays occur. The OPW did a fantastic job on Farmleigh House. It is an ace in the country and the work carried out is a credit to the OPW. Once more, targets have been set for the OPW, but it cannot be blamed if it does not meet these targets. The Minister of State should be honest and admit there will be a time variation. He should consult with the people whose lives will be affected. This time last year, he welcomed them to Parlon country. Who was he welcoming? Only he knew about the move the night before the budget.

The Minister of State first politicised decentralisation. He was in a mad rush, which was political strokery. Anyone who says that Fine Gael is politicising decentralisation is wrong. The Minister of State is the person who did so and he must quickly redress this.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I am pleased to have an opportunity to make further points and reiterate previous points relating to decentralisation.

I welcome the Flynn report, which gives a clear outline of the properly managed implementation of the decentralisation programme announced last year. It is worth noting that this is phase two of the Fianna Fáil decentralisation programme, or possibly phase three, as the Leader, Senator O'Rourke, pointed out. This began in the 1960s when her late brother, Brian Lenihan, was responsible for the decentralisation of the Department of Education to Athlone. There was a continuation of this in the late 1990s and now we are onto phase three, which will be implemented on a phased basis over the next number of years, as clearly pointed out in the Flynn report. I am absolutely delighted the programme will proceed over the next number of years, which is the fastest possible time in which it can occur.

By way of rebuttal, the Minister for Finance did not refer in his budget speech to a three year deadline. Phil Flynn points out in his report that in the past, when various Governments made commitments or stated aspirations to carry out policies, there were no deadlines or targets attached. Scarcely a job exists nowadays which is not performance-related or subject to performing to targets. While various sensational press reports and newspaper articles stated that the programme would be rolled out in three years, this could not happen. This was not the intention. However, the intention was that it would be well under way but it was important to state a target and seek to perform to that target, otherwise nothing would happen and our party might be criticised. It was a cliché for many years that if anyone drained the Shannon, X party would do so, but of course it was never drained. Thank God, things have moved on substantially since then. Thanks to the Phil Flynn report and the vision of the former Minister, Deputy McCreevy, the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, and the Government as a whole — following on successive Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats Governments and Fianna Fáil Governments — there has been this type of consistency, and I am pleased we are moving forward.

I had not anticipated the kind of crossfire evident here earlier. The entire contribution of Senator John Paul Phelan, for whom I have tremendous respect, was substantially about what people said in this House previously and how they were proved incorrect. Perhaps the biggest irony is that the entire decentralisation programme would be complete today if in 1981 and 1982 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bruton, had not cancelled the proposals of a previous Fianna Fáil Administration. In a second cancellation, he proceeded to sell sites which had been secured throughout the country, which was consistent with the policies of that Administration. As Senator Leyden said, they were more concerned about taxing children's shoes so that ladies with small feet would not be able to cash in on the possibility of buying footwear without paying their due taxes. It was hardly surprising, therefore, that the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bruton, sold the sites. This meant waiting for a considerable period before being able to revert to a decentralisation programme, which was successfully implemented by the 1987-89 Government, and in which the Leader of the House played a very important part.

We are experiencing the benefits of that programme today. There was an allocation of 250 civil servants to the then Department of Social Welfare in County Sligo. It is worth noting that today almost 700 people work in that office. While Sligo is to lose 100 jobs by way of localising the mother and child scheme, I am pleased that under the first and second phases of the decentralisation programme, 100 additional posts will be created. I would like many more jobs, as I am sure every town and cluster of more than three houses would like a Department in their back garden. However, this is neither realistic nor feasible.

A number of Opposition Senators asked about Roscrea, Loughrea and various other towns. This is missing the point. It would be fantastic if the Minister of State were in a position to announce 1,000 jobs for Sligo. However, this is not a parochial matter, it is about the policy of decentralisation and people. People must think regionally. Senator Feighan, for whom I have tremendous respect — unlike Senator Leyden, I will not speculate about his political affiliations before he came to this House — referred to how Boyle, which fought hard and made a site available free of charge, had been overlooked. Sligo County Council, and perhaps most county councils throughout the country, were making available a site free of charge. The Senator will need many more votes than Boyle if he is to transfer from this to the other House. Phase 2 of the plan is not 100 years away. The second Phil Flynn report will be published in March, which will be followed by immediate action by the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, and his colleagues.

In the region of 300 jobs will be created in Carrick-on-Shannon and approximately 240 in Roscommon town, which is 550 jobs in the constituency. Sligo will also benefit. The 700 staff who work in the Department of Social and Family Affairs commute from Senator Bannon's constituency, Donegal, Roscommon, Cavan and Fermanagh. Of course, it would be great politically to be able to say 1,000 jobs will be created in Sligo, Portlaoise or wherever. However, we must consider the regional aspect of decentralisation in order to achieve the ultimate benefits. The Government must take the lead in tackling regional imbalance and investing in the regions.

The private sector should follow suit and engage in the regions. Irish indigenous industry should decentralise office facilities to other parts of the country and we should stimulate and attract foreign direct investment through the IDA and other agencies. The Flynn report makes the point that the decentralisation of State agencies has not happened before, which is not entirely true. A number of years ago, the IDA decentralised constituent parts of the organisation. For example, part of the international trade service division and the entire engineering division is located in Sligo. When Ireland is being marketed in Dusseldorf, Japan, New York and throughout the world, it is being marketed from Sligo. Over time, it will be possible to bring these agencies to the area. The IDA has already done it. In the 1980s the then leader of Fine Gael, Mr. Alan Dukes, stated it would cost £45 million. It did not cost that. As Senator Mansergh rightly pointed out, decentralisation was a cost-saving measure. Decentralising out of Dublin was cheaper by approximately 50p per square foot, which represented a significant saving.

According to the report of the implementation group headed by Mr. Phil Flynn, over the lifetime of an average mortgage, some 25 years, that is precisely what will happen again. There will be very significant cost savings because, instead of paying exorbitant rents in Dublin, which are climbing and represent dead money, we will have secured state-of-the-art facilities nationwide. The savings in rentals will continue to accrue at that level, and the State will own the buildings, which it does not do in Dublin.

Decentralisation is a tremendously positive step. The issue has been too politicised. Senator Ulick Burke said it was the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, who politicised it. That is most certainly not the case. It has been politicised since the 1980s by others. It should not be politicised. It is a very positive policy and there is only one party——

Two parties.

Two parties consistently implemented this policy over the past 20 years. Fianna Fáil did so initially with, in recent times, the Progressive Democrats. That should be remembered.

I am glad Senator John Paul Phelan is back. Lest he missed it en route from his office, I pointed out earlier that the decentralisation programme could have been completed by now if in 1982 the then Minister for Finance, former Deputy John Bruton, had not cancelled the process and sold the sites. However, that is not surprising, given that at the time Fine Gael was more concerned with putting VAT on children’s shoes.

Fine Gael was concerned with trying to bring the country back from the brink of bankruptcy.

Fine Gael doubled the national debt during that period.

(Interruptions).

The Senator should conclude.

I thank the chair for the extra time and for allowing me to comment.

It is very unfair to use the words Senator MacSharry used about former Minister John Bruton.

I was reminding the House of some facts.

John Bruton is the most honest, trustworthy and truthful politician that was ever elected to Dáil Éireann. He was left with a dilemma because of the mess in which Fianna Fáil left this country and the amount of taxpayers' money that was wasted because of the financial scandals created by Fianna Fáil Governments, and he had to rectify that.

What about Deputy Michael Lowry?

The public are paying dearly for it today. That Fianna Fáil Governments brought this country to the brink of bankruptcy as a result of one scandal after another is a matter of record.

What about Fine Gael?

Fianna Fáil was a laughing stock in Europe and still is. I have been in various European countries and heard the talk of corrupt politicians in Fianna Fáil. The public are paying dearly for this today.

The Senator need not point his finger at me.

This has nothing to do with decentralisation. It is a smoke-screen and a cover up for Fine Gael's appalling record.

Allow Senator Bannon to continue without interruption.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, to the House today.

Words, as well as promises, are soon forgotten by this Government, but let me refresh the Minister of State's memory regarding the words of the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, when announcing decentralisation plans last year. He said that it would be catastrophic if decentralisation was not delivered by the next general election and that the Government must make sure it was delivered or it would suffer heavily at the polls.

That is what happened to Fine Gael. It is indeed a family at war.

The Government has not delivered on decentralisation. Last week we heard that the plan to move 10,300 Dublin-based civil and public servants to 53 new locations by 2007 has been dropped, even though the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, placed leaflets in every post office in Laoighis-Offaly on the eve of budget day last year announcing decentralisation to those locations.

Unfortunately for the Government, there will be a general election before its policy can be implemented in full. The Government lied to the people and it will get a message from them. With the results of the local elections still fresh in its mind, this must be a daunting prospect — having run almost 20 candidates in Laoighis-Offaly, very few were elected to the local authority.

How many?

Before the ink was dry on the budget announcement last year, the Tánaiste hinted that targets for decentralisation could be reduced if staff resistance remained high. Shortly after decentralisation was announced, the two parties in Government were pulling in different directions like two goats. This is evident in Government even today.

The Senator would know about goats pulling the wrong way.

It appears that the Government could not even convince itself that decentralisation would go ahead as promised.

It is incredible that plans for decentralisation were first mooted prior to the local elections in 1999. In the run-up to the last general election it was part of An Agreed Programme for Government to be delivered by 2002. Prior to last year's local elections it was announced yet again with much fanfare in the budget. I refer to announcements by the Minister of State in the Laoighis-Offaly constituency. Decentralisation must go down in history as the most promised, broken promise. The electorate, however, are waiting on the doorsteps, waiting in the long grass, as they did last June at the local and European elections.

Approximately 4,700 other positions that featured in the budget package last year have not been mentioned in the latest report issued by the implementation committee. It is reported that the Government remains committed to moving these jobs and has announced that they will feature in a separate report in the spring. However, people should not hold their breath. It is another con job. Ministers have made promises, but should we believe them any more? The people do not believe them. They have lost the trust of the people on this and on a number of other issues. They cannot deny it.

The Senator did not tell me he was coming to Athlone last night. I would have come to meet him.

The Leader did not come to welcome us.

I was not informed that he was coming. I was not invited.

The Leader would have been like a red rag to a bull in Athlone.

The Government's plan to move 10,000 civil servants out of Dublin is in tatters.

Does the Senator believe decentralisation is voluntary? There is an argument about that.

Despite the promise made last December and the firm commitment to move 10,000 civil servants out of Dublin within three years, 29 of the original 53 locations have been abandoned. This monumental mishandling of the decentralisation programme has set back the cause of genuine regional development and caused discontent.

The Senator is the only one who is disappointed.

What we are left with is a shambles which serves neither the staff concerned or the people they serve.

The scaled-down programme of decentralisation now proposed shows that this ill-conceived project is now in the difficulties envisaged by the Opposition last year. Deputy Richard Bruton said in the Dáil that decentralisation would not happen, and it has not happened.

It must be terrible to be so negative.

The budget allocation of €20 million would not be enough even to move the furniture out of Dublin. The Government has not thought the decentralisation programme through. A mere €20 million was provided. It is only a pittance in terms of the programme announced in the budget.

It was a down payment. It was evidence of trust.

A total of 13 Departments and State bodies will move to 15 locations in the first long-overdue phase of the scaled-down programme. I am delighted that 159 Prison Service jobs have gone to Longford under the plan. As soon as the announcement was made I met the county manager and my colleagues on Longford County Council with a view to calling the Government's bluff. Longford County Council, of which I was a member at the time, donated the site free of charge to the Prison Service, as the Minister of State is aware.

That requires correction. We paid for it.

We invited the Minister of State to the site.

It was not free of charge.

Although we had to borrow a spade, we turned the sod to ensure there would be no going back on the Longford project. Following the withdrawal of Cardinal Health's proposed plant, this is good news for the county and I hope the move will be mutually beneficial.

As several speakers are offering to contribute to this interesting debate, I ask that the business of the House be extended to 7.45 p.m., if the Minister of State will agree.

Will the Minister of State be called at 7.40 p.m.?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the announcement, referred to by the Leader, by Cooper Cameron Corporation of 57 new jobs, which will see Longford placed as the company's global centre of excellence. Other good news is Wessel Cable's extension in Longford, which will create a further 40 new jobs, and Abbott's recent €700 million investment in the town, which will generate in the region of 800 new jobs. These are positive developments, regarding which I have worked hard since entering the House.

Although the Government decided to cut its losses and break loose from the huge commitment of full decentralisation, questions on funding still have to be answered. Far from being realistic, the former Minister's assertion that the project would be self-financing is another failed promise. The entire initiative will not even break even until 2026, according to the report.

I must ask the Senator to conclude.

The country deserves better than a Government which has wilfully deceived the electorate on many occasions but the scale of the deception in regard to decentralisation is mind-blowing. Some 29 of the original 58 towns earmarked for decentralisation have been abandoned by the Government, with all the problems that ensue being dropped on their doorsteps.

They have been abandoned.

That is erroneous.

The Senator has quite an imagination.

This is not the type of decentralisation that was promised and we are left with a complete shambles.

Will the Senator conclude?

I spoke with several auctioneers over the weekend. Property prices will fall by 10% for houses in areas earmarked for decentralisation.

I wish to share time with Senator Kitt, by agreement.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister of State and his comprehensive statement to the House. It is obvious his statement is baffling to some on the other side of the House because we listened to contributions which were prepared in advance of the events of the past two weeks. No recognition was given to the substance of the Flynn reports and there was not acceptance that decentralisation is not something that happens on a Tuesday.

We are talking about the broken promises of the Government. The Senator cannot blame Mr. Flynn for them.

Senator Bannon, allow Senator Dooley to speak without interruption.

Senator Bannon is talking rubbish. He is like a goat tied to a pole, going around in a circle with no concept of what is going on. The Senator decried the Government for the fact that house prices would drop. This is appalling given that he repeatedly complains in the House in regard to the price of houses and that young couples cannot buy houses. His point is self-defeating. We will not need an Opposition by the time of the next election.

I was talking about areas where the Government reneged on its decentralisation commitments.

It is wonderful to hear the type of rhetoric Senator Bannon throws at us on an ongoing basis.

This is the most pompous rubbish I have ever heard.

The point which many emphasise is that there is no understanding or care for the staff involved in decentralisation. The Opposition rightly identified an issue when decentralisation was first mooted. It asked the Government the question——

The Government lied. It said the process would take three years.

Will the Senator wait to hear what I have to say?

Senator Dooley without interruption, please.

Senator John Paul Phelan might not want to hear what I have to say, although, to be fair, he made a relatively good contribution.

This is pompous rubbish. Who does the Senator think he is?

Senator Phelan should not interrupt.

If it is hurtful, I apologise. The point I was trying to make was that the Opposition rightly asked a question of Government when decentralisation was announced, namely, whether the Government would force people out of jobs in Dublin into parts of rural Ireland. The answer from Government was that the moves would not be forced, that it would work with the unions-——

Why did the former Minister, Deputy McCreevy, not consult with the unions?

——and that it would work to ensure staff were appointed to positions they wanted, where possible. This has obviously proved a greater difficulty than some might have understood it to be. We accept that staff cannot be forced into jobs they do not want or to areas to which they do not want to go. However, Opposition Members are still not happy. They decry the fact that the towns are not getting what was promised. What would the Opposition do to give what was promised?

We would not have told lies in the first place.

The Opposition would force civil servants into jobs they do not want.

The Government did not do its homework.

If that is to be the policy of the Opposition in its response to the decentralisation programme in the run-up to the next general election, I would be delighted to see it on paper.

Decentralisation was an attempt to buy the local elections but it did not work.

I would be delighted to challenge Senator Bannon as he stated the Government parties will suffer the effects of this at the next elections.

The Government suffered last June in the local and European elections. The public will not be blind going into the general election.

The one message coming from Senator Bannon's contribution is that he and his party, Fine Gael, which opposed decentralisation for so long, now accept it is required for balanced regional development and the development of rural Ireland, and to promote life outside Dublin. However, as a result of this, Fine Gael will force people out. It is a serious move. It was worthwhile having this debate to discover this point.

I am delighted the decentralisation programme is progressing so well.

With one fifth of the required staff available. Who does the Senator think he is kidding?

I am particularly delighted that County Clare is part of the first phase and that jobs are being transferred to Kilrush as part of the Revenue Commissioners' response, as Senator Finucane stated, in the context of the cluster which includes Newcastle West and Listowel.

There are a few problems with the Revenue Commissioners.

I have no doubt this will be welcomed, as was the past decentralisation programme in which Ennis, Nenagh and Limerick were clustered.

Decentralisation is an evolving process. From the time Fianna Fáil set about this programme, it has ensured the regions were developed and built up.

Were the PDs involved?

We are at one with the Opposition in terms of recognising the importance of decentralisation to the growth of the regions. Senator O'Meara referred to Ryanair's announcement today that it will invest approximately €180 million to €200 million, which is a fantastic recognition of the mid-west and west. I am delighted the Western Development Commission in recent days began encouraging people to move from the overcrowded east coast, an area where the infrastructure is creaking at the seams because of the increases in population. It is correct for the commission to try to encourage people to move west and Government policy is focused on supporting this.

However, this process must be carried out in a phased and controlled manner. From the outset, the former Minister, Deputy McCreevy, stated it could not be done as a big bang. Certain statements have been taken in isolation and presented in this debate in what can only be described as a misleading way and one which tries to suggest that the Government last December set about delivering on a programme of decentralisation over two to three years. Anybody in his or her right mind would know this was not achievable.

That is what was stated last year in this Chamber by perhaps five or six Fianna Fáil Members. It was stated the programme would be delivered over three years but it has not been.

Of course it was. To the best of my recollection, nobody on this side said that 10,000 staff would be delivered in three years. It is the use of a selective quotation, a practice with which the Opposition is familiar.

I must ask the Senator to conclude.

A Member referred to the Fianna Fáil-led Government as being over-ambitious. This is the first time an Opposition has criticised a Government for being ambitious. This is what the Opposition lacks, irrespective of whether it can see it. The reality is that the Government has been ambitious in regard to delivering jobs to the regions, removing the clog in infrastructure from Dublin city and ensuring that people have a quality of life, but it has done this in a way that is mindful of the workers who must be transferred. From my understanding of the contributions of Opposition Members, they will force staff to move to areas to which they do not want to go.

I welcome the opportunity to speak and I thank Senator Dooley for sharing his time. In 1980 the Fianna Fáil Government made plans to bring in the decentralisation programme and it was very successful. I was on the Committee of Public Accounts at the time when the Opposition told us we could not move the then Department of Social Welfare out of Dublin because it was so big, as were the computers. The technology has moved on and many parts of the Department of Social and Family Affairs are now devolved and decentralised throughout the country. We had a similarly good programme in 1989.

When the spatial strategy was launched by the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, there was some disappointment. Tuam, for example, is a hub town and a number of gateway towns have done quite well out of decentralisation. Tuam did not feature in the spatial strategy. At the time I also made a strong case for Ballinasloe because it had lost two major industries, Square D and AT Cross, while Dubarry has laid off some people. Thankfully, Ballinasloe is included in the decentralisation programme, with the National Roads Authority due to come there. It is disappointing for me that Ballinasloe is not mentioned in Table 1, 2 or 3. I am told that is because the NRA employs specialised, highly-skilled people. The NRA is very busy with its roads programme, and all credit to it, but it is time for the agency to announce through a sub-committee or small group what it intends to do with regard to Ballinasloe. That is important.

I welcome the fact that Loughrea is mentioned in Table 1, with 40 staff due to come from the Department of Transport, and in Table 3, with 12 people coming from the National Safety Council. The Minister and the Government must look again at Ballinasloe. That town like many others wants a major industry to locate there but the only way the Government can directly help the town is through the decentralisation programme. I hope Ballinasloe will be listed in future announcements.

I understand that the closing date for applications regarding the spatial strategy was September 2001 — Senator O'Rourke may confirm that. A great deal of good work was done on the spatial strategy by the previous Government but I now see the new Deputies from east Galway, in particular the Independent Deputies, claiming credit for Tuam having hub status. A lot of the work was done by the last Government——

——particularly by the then Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who consulted and was of course lobbied by Members on all sides of both Houses to give hub or gateway status to various regions and towns. I am glad that Tuam has hub status but it needs development.

There are many issues we could discuss. The Minister of State has given a very good explanation of what is happening. I am glad we have made progress. I admit, as no doubt will the Minister of State, that there are areas in which we have not made progress. It is important that the towns not so far included should have their problems sorted out. The NRA is an important body for which I have great regard and I greatly admire its work. The Minister told me that it is so busy with its roads programme that it has not got down to the basics of moving to Ballinasloe. Hopefully the NRA will sort out its problems and we will see it taking its first steps in terms of moving to the town.

I wish to share my time with Senator Brian Hayes.

The Minister of State will reply at 7.40 p.m.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach has been very generous in giving time to those on the opposite benches.

The main point of the decentralisation debate is that the homework was not done beforehand. The announcement was made in the budget, where it had no place. In the budget, the Minister should make announcements concerning changes in archaic and outdated limits in the social welfare area which are there for 11 years, for example, in the area of family income supplement. The decentralisation programme had no place in the budget debate last year and there was no consultation with the unions. When the Government began talking to the unions it realised there were major problems. That is why we now have 2,000 people moving instead of 10,000. That is the main difficulty the Opposition has with decentralisation. The purpose of decentralisation is to ensure that not only will we have as good a public service as we currently have, but perhaps even better. The Government, however, has fallen at the first hurdle, that of transferring the Departments.

I welcome the announcement about Carlow but I acknowledge the role played in the decision by Carlow County Council. It gave the Department a free site in a prime location in Carlow town and offered to fast-track the planning process. It put together a very good package which the Minister and Government could not refuse. The decision was the result of the pro-active initiative taken by the Carlow local authority and I would not like to see the Minister of State take all the glory for that decision.

I am surprised that Senator Dooley in his contribution regarding Shannon did not mention Enterprise Ireland, which has now been shelved. He spoke about Kilrush but Enterprise Ireland is now gone. Senator John Paul Phelan spoke about Kilkenny city and Thomastown, which has lost the Health and Safety Authority.

The authority is going to Thomastown.

The antics of the Minister of State last year were deplorable and gave politics a bad name. I am glad he was not rewarded in the local elections because politics was given a bad name. I am glad that my friends in the Luggacuran area, Councillors Moran and Daly, came first and second in the poll. For all of us, that sent out a good signal that these gimmicky antics will get us nowhere and will damage politics in general. The public already has a low opinion about politics without us deliberately doing anything to make the situation worse. I am glad that in most of the towns promised Government Departments under decentralisation, Fianna Fáil lost seats. It did not get the reward it thought it would get. The sham was exposed.

I was bemused while listening to Senator Dooley talk about jobs for the regions. The Government's record in that area is atrocious. Even in Carlow we have 900 IDA-supported jobs, 700 of which date back to the early 1970s. We have had no new jobs in that area. The situation has been atrocious. The record is worse in Kilkenny and other parts of the country. I would hate to go to the west of Ireland as I imagine the situation is even worse there.

The Senator is making a false assumption.

Senator Kitt asked a useful question on the spatial strategy. Where is it and what is it? We have forgotten all about it. It was launched with great fanfare and we have not heard about it since. It has made no difference at all.

With a choice between watching "Coronation Street" or watching the Seanad tonight, I will watch the Seanad. That is why I came here. Going by the contributions I have heard, this is much more exciting.

Is the Senator featuring on "Coronation Street"?

On behalf of his countymen and countywomen, Senator Dooley welcomed the Revenue to County Clare. I suspect he is the only public representative who would ever welcome the Revenue to any part of the country given the prospect for declarations on various non-resident accounts there.

There are 300 jobs coming to County Clare. There is spin-off.

This has been a useful debate and the key issue has been raised by Senator Kitt. Since the Government set out in a national spatial strategy where it wants to make settlement policies over the next ten years, it is logical that at its first opportunity of directing jobs to the regions it will follow that plan. We have made a huge mistake. This is stroke politics at its worst, whether it comes from this side of the House or the other. This scatter-gun approach, with a little offered to everyone, is appalling. It is neither sensible, strategic or sustainable. If we are serious about doing something about the imbalance between east and west we should pick one or two locations in the west of Ireland and go for them.

The Shannon and Limerick region is the most logical place for strategic development in order to stop the pull between east and west, because it has an airport, third level education facilities and all kinds of industries. If we are serious about stopping the expansion of Dublin and doing something for regional development, all the international evidence is that one should select one or two areas, rather than 56, as the Government did before the last local elections. One should run with those areas and try to do something significant for regional development. The great fault on all sides lies in thinking that every area can get four or five, 50 or 60 jobs here or there. That will do nothing for regional development in the long term. There are many people in Dublin who want to see genuine regional development to reduce the gridlock, stop the crazy hike in house prices and so on.

There are jobs which can be usefully decentralised. One of the reasons the Department of Social and Family Affairs is such a success in parts of County Donegal is that much of its task is administrative. If one is serious about policy, one must keep the key decision-makers close to each other. It is crazy that people will regularly criss-cross the country to discuss policy in respect of various Departments. If we stop the stroke politics and go back to basics on this issue, then we will be able to do something significant for regional development.

I thank Senators for their contributions. Those which were not enlightening were, in some cases, hilarious. I am sure if they reach "Oireachtas Report", they will make interesting viewing. Senators John Paul Phelan and Feighan started off the debate. I have the height of regard for both young Senators but I thought their contributions were quite juvenile and naive in many ways in terms of where they are coming from compared with that of their colleague from Limerick, Senator Finucane, who made a very mature contribution. I would say to Senator John Paul Phelan that it was never suggested, either in this House or the other or anywhere else, that decentralisation would be delivered in one year.

I never said it would be delivered in one year.

That was the Senator's inference.

It was not.

He went on at great length about towns with Ministers. Is there a Minister in Longford, Newcastle West, Thomastown, Carrick-on-Shannon, Kilrush, Loughrea or in Portlaoise? I do not believe there is, yet all these towns are in the first phase.

I wish to make it clear that the Government is determined to deliver the full decentralisation package. I think Senator O'Toole said it did not matter how long it would take. Senator Dooley referred to the fact that when the former Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, was trying to motivate Ministers to encourage Departments to move, he mentioned 2007. That should not be a stick with which to beat him. It was an ambitious target and Ministers should have pulled the finger out and motivated their Departments.

Phil Flynn has a tremendous reputation and the people on his committee are all high achievers with expertise in their areas. The criterion used is that this is a voluntary scheme, which the Government has always said. One cannot put a gun to civil servants' heads. Fine Gael, in its last manifesto, said it would decentralise full Departments within a year. I would like to know how that was going to happen.

We selected seven towns, not 53.

It was going to put a gun to civil servants' heads and move them to seven towns. We allowed civil servants to apply to move.

They will be scattered everywhere.

Why did the Government not consult beforehand?

More than 9,000 civil servants have applied to move. Mr. Phil Flynn wanted to assure himself that Departments would be able to operate efficiently and have sufficient people from all grades. That is why he has come forward with the 28 agencies and Departments. He has recommended to the Government — it has accepted the report — that those 28 agencies and Departments move. Some 4,500 civil servants will move in the three different moves which will be made. That is half of the full commitment. Within a year — although it will not be a year until tomorrow when the budget is announced — tremendous progress has been made by the Government, the Department of Finance and the OPW. I am very proud of that achievement.

We know. That is the problem.

I might not just have the single poster which got me such tremendous notice around the country and which cost me €16. Senator Browne referred to people bringing politics into disrepute. Neither I nor any of my people knew what was in the budget nor did we distribute any leaflets until after it was announced. That is a fact.

There was a very quickreaction.

Those opposite can talk about it forever.

I think the Minister of State is very naive as a young man in politics.

Senator O'Meara made a number of comments. I recall that when I was in the House the last time, her colleague, Senator McDowell, referred to the decentralisation of Departments to God awful places with dingy pubs around the country. If that is the Dublin and the Labour Party mindset, we have a major problem.

In fairness, everyone agrees with voluntary participation in decentralisation. In terms of the hype that the Government should have consulted, if it had attempted to consult each Department in advance of this very ambitious declaration to move 9,500 civil servants, it would still be talking about it. The consultation has taken place. At least 35 new people apply each week to decentralise. Given the announcement made last week, civil servants and those in the agencies are now 100% sure that the Government will deliver on this project and throngs will sign up to move. The Government is fully committed to taking care of the people left behind. They will be directed to new Departments or to new jobs. Their jobs will be guaranteed.

I am delighted with the debate and the fact so many Senators contributed. It has been very positive and I am delighted with the massive success so far and the progress we have made. In terms of hostages to fortune, the report states clearly — the OPW has put its neck on the line — when the different projects will begin and end. As I said, all will be completed by 2008 and by "completed" I mean that locations will be fitted out and ready for civil servants to move in. I have no doubt the Department of Finance and the Civil Service will have put all the personnel in place and that we will have a very successful decentralisation scheme.

In regard to those agencies or Departments which have not been included in the first move, as Senator O'Rourke said, we are moving the big offices and Departments, the tough ones. It will be a lot easier for the rest to come on stream and I have no doubt some of them will have moved well before 2008. I look forward to the very successful implementation of this scheme. Again, I thank Senators for their contributions.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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