Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Dec 2004

Vol. 178 No. 27

Order of Business.

Ms O’Rourke

The Order of Business is No. 1, a referral motion, to be taken without debate, whereby the subject matter of No. 7 on today's Order Paper is being referred to the Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food for consideration. These regulations concern a reduction in the disease levies applied to milk delivery for processing and cattle slaughtered or exported to facilitate the eradication of TB and brucellosis in cattle.

The rates have been reviewed in light of the improving disease situation and, as a consequence, there has been a reduction in the costs of the scheme; No. 2, Road Traffic Bill 2004 — Committee Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 2 p.m.; No. 3, Health Bill 2004 — Committee Stage, to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude no later than 6 p.m.; No. 4, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 — all Stages, to be taken at 6 p.m. and to conclude no later than 8 p.m.; and No. 5, Garda Síochána Bill 2004 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 8 p.m. and to conclude no later than 10 p.m. There will be a sos between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m.

Mr. B. Hayes

Does the Leader intend to take all Stages of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 today?

Ms O’Rourke

Yes. I understand that it is a short Bill.

Mr. B. Hayes

Fine Gael agrees to that because the Bill involves the Government giving money back to local authorities.

Ms O’Rourke

I do not know about that.

Mr. B. Hayes

It is good news. My party also welcomes Fianna Fáil's proposal to devote its Private Members' business tomorrow to a debate on Northern Ireland.

Ms O’Rourke

No other time was available.

Mr. B. Hayes

We appreciate the decision to arrange a two-hour debate on the matter tomorrow, which will allow Senators to discuss the important issues at stake.

In the last two weeks, Senators have called on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to allow residency to be granted to the parents of Irish children who were born in this State. According to newspaper reports today, it seems the Government intends to allow up to 17,000 families to remain in this country. I welcome the Government's new humane position in this regard. The arguments made in this House were based on the Supreme Court decision. It is right and proper that Ireland should grant residency to people whose children were born in this country. I compliment the many groups outside this House which have campaigned, lobbied and argued this case in recent months. While I welcome the proposed Government decision, I would like to know whether it will make the change by means of legislation or ministerial order. Can the Leader clarify the matter?

The independent commission established to examine Dáil boundaries produced its report approximately eight months ago, but legislation to that effect has not yet been brought to the Oireachtas. I presume a Bill will be introduced early in the new year. When an independent commission produces a report of this nature, it is important that it be brought before the House for its consideration. There are controversial issues in the report, not least the proposed changes to the status of County Leitrim. The matter should be brought before the Oireachtas at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. O’Toole

When the Seanad dealt with the Immigration Bill 2004 and a motion on the matter, Senators pressed the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the issue of Irish citizens who were born here. The Minister took a strong position on getting the legislation through at that time, but he promised to take a pragmatic and open view of the matter after it had been enacted. When he said that he would not close the door on Irish citizens, we wondered if he would stick to his word. I am happy to note that the Minister is as good as his word and I welcome his decision to find ways of dealing with the matter. We have a moral and ethical imperative to look after the families of children born in Ireland. I hope the 17,000 families will be dealt with in a pragmatic manner. It is quite fair and in order for the Minister to consider that the new system will be open to those who act honestly with the authorities. I refer to people of good character who seek to live in this country in a self-sufficient manner. I have always asked that we take such a practical approach to the matter, rather than having a closed mind.

Although the Houses were not sitting yesterday afternoon, there was a very enthusiastic demonstration outside the gates of Leinster House involving young, energetic and enthusiastic student teachers from the various colleges of education. It brought me back to my youth and it was great to see them. They are the kind of people one would be delighted to see in charge of and moulding the next generation of schoolchildren and leaders. They were making the very simple demand that they should be recognised for what they are and that there should be jobs available to them.

Members know that class sizes are still far too large. We need the student teachers in the schools and therefore I ask the Minister for Education and Science, who is now a couple of months in the job, to outline in the House her plans regarding teacher numbers and teacher supply. She should recognise that student teachers who spend many months in schools teaching, learning and improving their methods should be entitled to claim an allowance or pay during those months, just as nurses, gardaí and others get paid while they are on the job during their training periods. I would like the Minister to outline to the House how she intends to provide for the future of those brilliant young student teachers.

Mr. McDowell

I join Senator O'Toole in welcoming the decision by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the non-national parents of Irish-born children who are seeking asylum in this country. The Minister was in the House last week and I noted that he is one of those people who likes to play good cop and bad cop at the same time. Even when he is announcing something generous, he likes to do it in a fashion that sounds harsh. However, it appears that, in this instance, he has taken the more compassionate route. It is appropriate that we should salute and welcome his decision.

We have heard reports today on the purchase of the Irish assets of National Australia Bank by Danske Bank. It is probably fair to say that National Irish Bank has had a very chequered history in Ireland. When it first arrived, it was very much welcomed and seemed to bring a competitive edge to the retail market that had not existed previously. We later discovered that this had come about, at least in part, through means that were at least questionable if not unethical or illegal. In fairness to the bank, it has cleaned up its act. We welcome Danske Bank into the Irish banking sector. We have received a timely reminder that small businesses find it very difficult to obtain loans at decent or reasonable interest rates. I hope the emergence into the Irish banking sector of a retail bank with a commitment to address this issue will make a serious difference in years to come.

Mr. Finucane

I, too, welcome the decision of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding immigrants. It is very important because asylum seekers are subject to innuendo in many rural communities, where they are perceived to be almost wandering around aimlessly. Terminology such as "freeloaders" is sometimes used, which is a bit harsh. The beneficial aspect of the Minister's decision will be that it will bring people out of the twilight zone and restore the dignity of the non-national parents of children born in Ireland. It is extremely important to include such people in the workplace because this will increase the respectability attached to all immigrants in their position.

I understand the electronic voting machines that were mothballed are to be used on an experimental basis to convince the commission and the electorate that they are usable. This is probably laudable given that €51 million was spent on them. However, it is worth reminding the House that the main objection to them in the first place was the absence of a verifiable paper audit trail.

The Government should ascertain whether the machines can be configured to achieve a verifiable paper audit trail, otherwise the whole exercise could be brought into disrepute again. There may be an attempt to use the machines in the referendum to be held in the near future. While this is important, it is equally important to fine-tune the system, implement it fairly and respect the concerns of the public. The unfortunate former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, who attempted to introduce the electronic voting system, was caught in a PR exercise. We would not like to see the same error repeated by the new Minister in that Department. The Minister should exercise caution in what he seeks to achieve in this area.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

There is a campaign in Britain to stop young people carrying knives, which should be treated as offensive weapons. In the course of the campaign it was pointed out that more people are killed by knives than by guns yet the possession of a gun carries a stiff penalty. We must take the same view of knives because someone who goes out at night carrying a knife intends to use it. Knives have been used in different types of crime, for example, in theft when people have lost their lives, crimes of passion and so on. Such a course of action would send out a message to those who consider carrying a knife as a weapon they can use at a whim. We could discuss this with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. A knife in this context is no different from a gun and should be treated accordingly.

Dr. Mansergh

Hear, hear.

Mr. Norris

As one who comes from a former southern Unionist background, who is not a Roman Catholic or a republican, and is a Nationalist in as far as I love this country, I commend the Taoiseach on the extraordinary patience, skill and dignity with which he mustered the ability to make a long telephone call to Dr. Ian Paisley yesterday. That shows considerable grit and he increased his stature by so doing. The same dignity was not reflected on the other side.

With regard to the issue of photographs, the IRA is very sensitive. It was not quite so sensitive when it put up imitation road signs saying Sniper at Work, and did not seem to worry about the impact they would have on people such as the family of Stephen Rosterick. Sinn Féin and the Democratic Unionist Party need to grow up and give the majority of decent people in this country a chance to live their ordinary lives.

Will the Leader ask the appropriate Minister — perhaps it should be the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform — to consider the naming in newspapers of people accused of crimes? Last week, all the newspapers, including the principal papers of record, carried the name, age, occupation and address of somebody accused of having child pornography on a computer. This is a very nasty offence but the man is innocent until proven guilty. He has already been punished by the newspapers. He had a defence, as people usually do, and it may well be one that works. What is the situation for him and his family after all this? This type of procedure should be stopped. It is not right and it does not respect the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty.

I welcome the statements from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the immigrant families of babies born here. We had a good, detailed, well-informed, well-briefed debate in the Seanad in which the Minister participated fully and took on board many of the things said on all sides of the House. This issue was not one of the Opposition versus the Government. We have arrived at a more humane situation than that which might have obtained. It was work well done.

Mr. Bohan

Will the Leader bring to the attention of the appropriate Minister the increased charges on toll bridges, particularly the M50? It is an outrage that the people managing the tolls are allowed to increase the charges by at least 20% when inflation is running at approximately 2.5%.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Mr. Bohan

Those toll bridges have been paid for several times over.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. Bohan

It is absolute greed and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. The unfortunate people who must come to work in the morning and go home in the evening through those toll gates are being ripped off. I ask the Leader to bring this issue to the attention of the Minister concerned to see what can be done about it.

Ms Terry

I welcome the comments of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding the parents of Irish-born children. It is a welcome move and I compliment him. I now ask him to consider the many thousands of families accommodated in direct provision, in particular in Mosney. Families are living in such accommodation for years. It is not appropriate for young children to grow up in an atmosphere where they never see their parents cook a meal or do normal family activities, as would be the case in household accommodation. The Minister should continue his good work and address this problem.

It will come as no surprise that a CSO survey published in the past couple of days shows women earn one third less than their male counterparts, and are still the principal carers of children. Many women with young children under the age of three years choose to stay at home. That may be due to a lack of child care facilities, or it may be because parents decide it is in the better interests of their children that one parent stays at home. We need a full debate on the issues of family and how parents manage their households and children. We should examine affordable child care provision and ensure parents who opt to stay at home are looked after. Do they do so because they do not have sufficient maternity leave and must jeopardise their work?

Ms Ormonde

I support the two causes set out by Senator Terry. I would like us to discuss the CSO report early in the new year. This is an important issue regarding opportunity for women in employment and whether the glass ceiling still exists; according to the report it does. It is also an important issue regarding family life, in particular child care.

Like Senator Bohan, I am concerned about the increase in toll road charges. The knock-on effect is that residential areas are clogged up and dangerous for residents. This is seriously affecting quality of life in that transport and motorists are moving through residential areas. It would be interesting to have a debate on the issue in the new year.

Dr. Henry

I also praise the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding his decision to re-examine the issue of people with Irish-born children. I hope he extends the proposals to people who have already been deported with or without their Irish-born children.

Can the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment be urged to look at the situation regarding work visas for spouses of non-EU nationals who have to come to work in Ireland? The chambers of commerce have stated it is an important issue, and we daily read in the newspapers of the need for more immigrant workers. I am sure the Leader agrees it is also important to keep families together.

Mr. Dooley

I echo my colleagues' comments with regard to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's suggestion about parents of Irish-born children.

Senator Henry raised the point I was about to raise. There is considerable concern in workplaces and chambers of commerce about the competitiveness of our economy, particularly with regard to ensuring there are enough workers in the service industry. An obvious solution is to allow spouses of non-EU nationals with work permits to work. There is particular concern with regard to the nursing sector. Many nurses come from the Philippines to do an important job. However, they encounter difficulties in that their husbands and families are not allowed to work in jobs which are available. I urge the Leader to discuss the matter with the Minister.

Mr. Coghlan

I agree with Senator Brian Hayes's remarks on the independent commission on the electoral boundaries for Dáil elections and the fact that legislation has not been introduced to give effect to it. Is the Government stalling its introduction to allow the 2006 census, which undoubtedly will necessitate the making of further changes, to supplant it and push it aside? I would like to hear the Leader's view on that issue.

Has the Leader had an update from the Government recently on the future on the Great Southern Hotels Group? There is continuing concern about the future of the hotels as nobody knows whether it is intended to retain them or to sell them off individually or collectively. Perhaps the Leader would be good enough to update the House on the matter?

Mr. Quinn

Will the Leader draw the attention of the Government to the decision yesterday of the Conservative Party in Britain to back the British Government on the introduction of identity cards? We are fighting crime here with one hand tied behind our backs. We are one of the few countries that does not have some form of compulsory identity card. With the support of the Conservatives, the introduction of this proposed measure is likely to become law, although it will take some years to come into being. If we do not take the first steps in this direction, we may well be outflanked, as we were to a certain extent by the Schengen Agreement. Britain refused to sign up to that agreement and, therefore, we were not able to sign up to it. As a consequence we have had to use passports to travel, even to the Continent. I raise this matter because if we delay too long in moving in this direction, we will miss the opportunity and be left out.

In regard to the fight against crime, legislation restricting the use of knives has been introduced in Britain. From memory I recall Senator Ó Murchú spoke about the introduction of legislation on knives. We passed such legislation some years ago but perhaps it is not being enforced. I remember at that time meeting a person who planned to go camping and needed to take a knife on the trip but was uncomfortable because he had identified this legislation which restricted the use of knives. I am sure we took people planning such trips into account when the legislation was introduced.

Mr. McHugh

I welcome the call for a debate on this issue of knives. It is important to note that young gardaí who deal with junkies on a daily basis in Dublin do not have the simple provision of a protective vest. Such provision would represent a simple solution to their needs. They find themselves in volatile situations and the provision of a simple protective vest would be a start in dealing with this problem.

I am delighted there will be a debate on Northern Ireland. Without going into the political aspects of the issue, I wish to point out that industry has a part to play in regard to such a debate. I will give one example. If one is driving between Carndonagh and Quigley's Point in north Donegal, which as we are all aware is in the Twenty-six Counties, one is welcomed by Vodafone to the United Kingdom. For a Border area, such a sign is sensitive in terms of nationality. Many people find it offensive to be welcomed to the United Kingdom in Donegal. Industry has a part to play in such a debate. Vodafone, in particular, has a part to play. It has had a monopoly for a considerable time which I hope will change under ComReg regulations.

Mr. Ross

I add my voice to those of a number of Members from the other side of the Chamber, in particular Senators Bohan and Ormonde, who expressed disgust at the raising of the toll charge on the M50 from €1.50 to €1.80. It is important that we realise that the Westlink bridge was put in place many years ago to alleviate the traffic problem, but it is now contributing to it in a major way. It is absurd commuters, cars and other vehicles are being charged by the company in question to use it. While it makes considerable money not only for the State but for individuals, in so doing it also obstructs traffic. This is a complete and utter absurdity. I tabled a motion, which has been seconded by Senator Norris and which I hope Senators Ormonde and Bohan will support, that the Government should take urgent measures to ensure that the Westlink toll bridge is opened, whether that means buying it out——

Mr. McDowell

It should be nationalised.

Mr. Ross

I would not mind nationalising it. I have taken on the left many times. It is not very difficult with the Labour Party nowadays.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. Ross

We should note that when this bridge was originally built there were approximately 11,000 cars going through per day. There are now 90,000 per day. It is an absolute absurdity that it is allowed to obstruct the traffic of Dublin. The M50 will now be a double cause of delay because there will be three lanes on it in five years time and there will be a permanent traffic jam when the upgrading begins. It would be sensible, therefore, to reduce that ridiculous charge back to €1.50 and, second, to open the toll gates.

Mr. Brennan

Could we have a discussion in the near future on escalating electricity charges? I welcome the announcement of grants for alternative energy by the Minister with responsibility for energy. However, I would be concerned if consumers had to pay for those grants down the line. There is concern that while companies benefit from grants, consumers pay for the changes in increased charges.

Mr. Browne

Will the Leader organise a debate in the new year on sugar beet and the challenges that lie ahead? Will she invite the Minister for Agriculture and Food to the House to outline her position in advance of any talks at EU level, given that there will be major consequences for towns such as Carlow and Mallow and the south eastern areas that produce beet?

Mr. Lydon

I did not know Senator Brennan was going to mention it, but I rise to ask the Leader for a debate in the new year on energy and energy resources. Ireland is one of the most vulnerable countries in the world in terms of energy resources. It has very high usage but few resources. We could usefully have a debate on this subject.

I ask for a debate on the barbaric custom of female genital mutilation. The matter, on which I have requested a debate on many previous occasions, could be discussed in the context of a general debate on violence against women.

I support my colleague, Senator McHugh. On driving from Pettigo to Donegal town I still have to dial 00353 because my phone is still in the United Kingdom. I find that most objectionable.

Mr. Feighan

Recently I mentioned that the parties in Northern Ireland seem to be choreographing events. There has been talk of humiliation. The Taoiseach has gone as far as he can in the effort to achieve a great prize. However, the Taoiseach represents the people of Ireland, as the British Government represents the people of the UK, and there is only so far they can go. I believe the Irish and British Governments have been humiliated in the past week. Two weeks ago I asked where this would end. Something must be done. The two parties must be called together.

The increase in the toll charge on the M50 from €1.50 to €1.80 is exorbitant. This toll has increased by 38% in the past two years. Perhaps we should invite the Minister to the House for a debate on stealth taxes. I understood that when we paid tax on our cars, that would be the end of such taxes. However, stealth taxes will be introduced on all new motorways and the charges are exorbitant.

Dr. Mansergh

The Taoiseach gave an example yesterday, as he did during the week of the Good Friday Agreement, of a non-macho approach to peace making. He was prepared to go to great lengths not to put his own standing in the way of making peace.

That is an example to all the parties in Northern Ireland and, where relevant, to parties here also.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, raised the citizenship issue, which I understand is before Cabinet today for discussion and, I hope, decision. The issue relates to the parents of Irish children having to leave the country and bring their children with them, or worse, leave the children behind. The Senator asked whether the matter would be decided by legislation or by ministerial order. I presume it will be by ministerial order because the general legislation was to fulfil the requirements of the referendum. Having done that and with the people having voted, it is time for clemency and I believe clemency will be shown. I will investigate the matter for the Senator.

Senator Brian Hayes also referred to the legislation in regard to Dáil boundaries. Legislation on boundary changes and the boundary commission recommendations is being drafted at present.

Senator O'Toole referred to the Immigration Bill 2004 and to a lively debate in the House on the parentage of children during which the Minister stated he would not be punitive. I listened to the Minister's contribution on the relevant section of the Bill and he was positive on the issue.

Senator O'Toole also referred to the student teachers who protested outside Leinster House yesterday and called for the Minister for Education and Science to debate the issue in the House. The student teachers seek an allowance while in training, as others in training might be paid an apprenticeship rate. The Minister is scheduled to come to the House in January or February next.

Senator McDowell welcomed the decision of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in regard to the non-national parents of Irish children. He also welcomed the sale of the National Irish Bank to a Danish bank. A report this morning suggested that small firms find it difficult to get decent rates and advantages from banks.

Senator Finucane made his points well. He stated that immigrants should be allowed to work. There are over 400 immigrants in Athlone at present. They do not want to walk around aimlessly day after day as they are able-bodied women and men who seek jobs. Plenty of jobs are available for them and I hope they will be enabled to take up job opportunities because they want to work and integrate into the community. These 400 immigrants have lived a long time in imperfect accommodation. I hope that whatever decision is reached in this regard, it will stipulate that immigrants should be eligible to apply for work. Senator Terry raised the same matter in a more comprehensive way. It is a good point to make and I hope such a decision is made.

Senator Finucane also referred to e-voting and the verifiable paper audit trail which was the major objection to the system at its previous outing.

Senator Norris commended the Taoiseach on his handling of Northern Ireland issues and his telephone call to Dr. Paisley. He asked that all sides would grow up and stop insisting on developments that might not prove possible.

The Senator also welcomed the action taken by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform with regard to the parents of-——

Mr. Norris

What of the naming of accused persons in newspapers?

Ms O’Rourke

The Senator also referred to due process and to names being published in newspapers when cases have not been heard. One would be damned if this happened because people would say there was no smoke without fire.

Senator Bohan referred to the significant increase in toll charges. While many say we must simply put up with this, we should not. It is a Joe Duffy issue if ever there was one. The Minister should not accept the increase. While I am not sure whether the Minister for Transport or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is responsible, I will find out. I thank the Senator for raising the matter.

Senator Terry referred to the non-national parents of Irish-born children. Such children do not see their parents going to work as they see their friends' parents going to work, coming home with a wage packet and carrying out other normal family activities. A huge segment of their lives is cut off. As we all know, unemployment which extends to a subsequent generation becomes inbred. The Senator referred to the CSO survey results which are graphically portrayed in The Irish Times today. It states that women are the carers and are the lowest paid. I am not being paranoid about the matter — it is a fact. It would be a good idea for the House to debate the results of the CSO survey.

A debate was also sought on child care. A month ago, I gave a commitment to Senator O'Meara to have such a debate early in the new year.

Senator Ormonde also sought a debate on the CSO statistics and referred to the Westlink toll charges. She is correct in stating that some drivers are dodging tolls by driving through suburban estates. This leads to an increase of traffic in built up areas and is very dangerous. Talk about rip-off Ireland — Fine Gael should take that one up as a major example.

Mr. Finucane

We have.

Ms O’Rourke

Good.

Mr. Browne

What about Senator Leyden?

Mr. Finucane

Name and shame.

Mr. Leyden

We work together.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader should avoid referring to Fine Gael when replying to the Order of Business.

Ms O’Rourke

I would call it dangerous. Senator Henry raised the issues of citizenship and work visas for spouses. The point was well made that a worker does not exist as a solitary unit; a worker nearly always has a spouse or partner, and children. If non-EU workers have families they should be able to accompany them here. Senator Dooley referred to the same matter, asking for the spouses of non-EU nationals to be allowed to accompany them.

Senator Coghlan referred to the 2006 census but if the legislation has been drafted I hope we are going on the last census in which we all had an interest. He also asked me about the Great Southern Hotels group. I do not know what is happening but I will inquire on the Senator's behalf. We will no longer have a place for our trysts.

Mr. B. Hayes

There is a thought.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Quinn referred to ID cards and asked about introducing legislation on knives. Senator Ó Murchú also asked about the anti-knives campaign, while Senator Quinn appeared to think that such legislation had been proposed. I cannot recollect if that is so but I will inquire about it. The matter needs to be highlighted again.

Senator McHugh said that young gardaí should wear protective vests. He also stated that many people find it offensive to be welcomed to the United Kingdom by a mobile phone company when driving in north Donegal. That must drive every Donegal man mad.

Mr. McHugh

And every Donegal woman.

Ms O’Rourke

And women. I used the term generically. Senator Ross referred to the West-Link toll bridge charges, which I think is a case of pure greed. The bridge operators have benefited hugely from the increase in motor traffic anyway but that is not good enough — they must double it up and get another 50 cent per vehicle.

Senator Brennan raised the matter of escalating ESB costs and sought a debate on energy issues. Senator Browne sought a debate on the sugar beet industry and wants the Minister for Agriculture and Food to attend the House for that discussion. Senator Lydon sought a debate on energy resources and the issue of female genital mutilation. In fact, Senator Norris raised the latter issue last week in the context of human rights. Senator Lydon also raised the Vodafone issue.

Senator Feighan raised the Westlink tolls issue. He also said both Governments had gone as far as they could in the peace process negotiations. Senator Mansergh said the Taoiseach had adopted a non-macho approach to the Northern Ireland talks and it was an example to all of us. I agree with that.

Order of Business agreed to.