The Order of Business is No. 1, Finance Bill 2005 — Second Stage to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 6.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 2, Veterinary Practice Bill 2004 — Committee Stage to be taken at 6.30 p.m. until 9 p.m.
Order of Business.
It is great to see Senator Kate Walsh back in the House. I congratulate her and all candidates on their performances in the recent by-elections. I will not say anything about the results as I am sure the Government has its own analysis as to what went wrong. It is safe to say, however, that the makeover made no difference.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform stated earlier that he will consider amending the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 to give extra protection to emergency service workers, particularly those in the frontline — gardaí, nurses, doctors and firefighters — who are obliged to deal on a daily basis with threats, assaults and other acts of violence while performing their duties. The House has a responsibility to provide protection to these people who work in difficult circumstances and continually put their lives on the line for this country. I would like the Leader to obtain from the Minister a commitment to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage when the Bill comes to the House.
Like many others in this House the image of St. Patrick's Day last week for me was the image of the McCartney sisters in Washington meeting the US President and other congressional leaders on Capitol Hill. As they came home from the campaign they took to the United States of America, it was appalling to see, daubed on the walls in the Short Strand area of Belfast, the slogan: "Whatever you say, say nothing." If ever there was an example of courage and of people who simply want the truth and justice for their murdered brother it is the example of the McCartney sisters. They should not be diverted or put off by the kind of scurrilous campaign some elements in our society are directing against them. They have a simple task, namely, to fight for justice for their brother who was murdered in the most appalling circumstances. There is consensus and a unified view in this House and the same is virtually true in the Lower House, which supports them in their campaign to get justice for their brother. These are people who have shown great courage against adversity. They have stood up to the "mafia" elements that are prevalent in Northern Ireland and in this jurisdiction. We should support them in their good fight for justice.
While looking at the monitor during the course of the expressions of sympathy for Michael O'Higgins, it struck me that people like him who served so long and so loyally in this House, including as Leader, should be entitled to retain the title of Senator, as I previously said on the occasion of the retirement of former Senator Des Hanafin. We would all be honoured by being associated with people who gave such loyal service. Whereas it is fine to refer to Mr. Michael J. O'Higgins, recording our appreciation and condolences brings to mind that such people should be recognised long after leaving here. People who have given that kind of service would add much to political life by retaining the title they had while serving in this House. We should consider this matter seriously. It is not a title of nobility and no constitutional change would be required. I make a habit of referring to Des Hanafin as "Senator" when I meet him and I always refer to every former Taoiseach as "Taoiseach". An Taoiseach is the current Taoiseach and any former holder of the office should be addressed as Taoiseach. This is one of the few aspects of the American system which I admire.
Many people of my age grew up in a culture where the counter of every corner shop had a donation box seeking to help the education of children in Africa. Added to that was the iconic imagery of African schoolchildren playing hurling or Gaelic football under the watchful eye of an Irish Christian Brother or priest in Africa. Having been rooted in that culture and background it is difficult to accept the sight of an African-Irish schoolboy in an Irish school uniform being exiled to a country where he has no protection, family or support.
Hear, hear.
This is the issue that bothers me. I do not say this as any personal criticism of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I have defended him and I do not believe him to be racist, nor do I believe many of the things that have been said about him. However, there is a time for flexibility and this is one such time. When I spoke on the Immigration Bill, I said there would be times when we would need to stand together and state it was right that people be turned back or be kept in the country. This is one of those times. I say to the Leader, as a teacher herself, that three months before the leaving certificate examination is not the time to expel a child from a school, never mind expelling one from the country. We should revisit the issue and ask that flexibility be brought to bear. As a teacher, public representative and citizen of the country, it is impossible to accept this was what we had in mind. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said when putting through the legislation that he would be open and flexible on the issue of children born after the implementation of the Supreme Court decision. He has honoured that commitment and I accept this issue is outside the bounds of what we sought on that occasion. However, this situation indicates why flexibility is necessary. Will the Leader ask the Minister to reinvestigate this matter and show some flexibility in this regard?
My image of St. Patrick's Day is somewhat different from that presented by Senator Brian Hayes. The holiday has become a drink-fest and should be revisited. The St. Patrick's Day festivals and parades in large cities should be adjourned for several years. We should discover whether we are capable of enjoying ourselves by having a few drinks in our local pub or in our homes. It does us no good to create focal points in city centres which facilitate the type of activity we have discussed in this House on three occasions during the past year. I am not saying this from a purist's point of view. I am not a person who drinks moderately and I have gone over the limit far too often. However, I come from a cultural background in which it was considered a useful quality to be able to hold one's drink rather than falling down drunk.
It is worth noting that not only are the McCartney sisters seeking justice but they have already prevented three murders through their refusal to accept the route offered to them by the Provisional IRA. They have given an example to many through their ability to see the difference between justice and revenge, a distinction some are unable to make. Their behaviour is a salutary lesson to many.
This House must have a debate about our attitude to immigrants and immigration. We have all heard about the Turkish building company and its ill-treatment of migrant workers. The matter of this company's treatment of its workforce was brought to my attention when it was building a major road in Cork. On raising the issue informally with a senior official in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I was assured everything was in order. It is disturbing to discover that a formal investigation by the Department has found this was not the case. I am concerned to have been told there was no problem in that Turkish workers were not being paid as much as Irish building workers but that the company was operating within Irish labour law.
It is disturbing that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment did nothing about these workers until a complaint was received. How are those whose only language is Turkish, Polish or Lithuanian, for example, to make a complaint to a Department in which the officials speak, at best, two languages? It is difficult enough to make a complaint to most Departments as Gaeilge not to mention attempting to do so in any other language.
My view of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not as benign as that expressed by Senator O'Toole but I will restrain my comments. The record of the Department is not great in regard to the treatment of immigrants. It objected to any Jewish immigration in the 1940s and we now know it objected to the reception of Chilean refugees in the 1970s. This attitude seems to follow a pattern. How is the integrity of our immigration and asylum system threatened by allowing, on humanitarian grounds, a young man of 18 years to stay in the country rather than deporting him without money and identification papers? If a young Irish person were afforded such treatment by any other state, we would scream that it was a brutal and uncivilised country.
That is happening every month in the United States.
I have not seen a single Irish person deported to conditions anything like those that exist for that 18 year old in Lagos. I do not wish anybody else to undergo such treatment.
I am certain on one point. Despite all the disagreements I had with him, the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, would not have taken this action. Notwithstanding his limitations, the previous Minister has a compassionate heart and would not allow this to happen.
The EU is apparently proposing to end its embargo on selling arms to China. I have raised this issue previously in the House and would like the House to have a serious debate on it. We aspire to be the House in which European issues are debated. The ending of the embargo is a considerable issue. It has trade and global political implications and, above all, ethical and moral implications. A decision should not be made by Government alone without reference to the Oireachtas.
Will the Leader consider a debate on the draft guidelines for sustainable rural housing? Many issues in this regard should be debated and teased out. I have reservations about some of the guidelines, particularly a draft regulation stipulating that one must agree to an occupancy clause for seven years. This is being implemented across the country, although not in every county. That one cannot dispose of a property subject to the clause within seven years interferes with one’s constitutional right. We need to debate this issue. Families get planning permission and move into their homes but, for different reasons, they sometimes have to sell them. A family might get bigger, thus forcing it to move on. If one changes one’s job one may have to move to another location, and if one loses one’s job, one may not be able to afford to keep one’s home. These issues require serious debate.
I concur wholeheartedly with the comments of Senators O'Toole and Ryan on the issue of asylum seekers, particularly in respect of the young 18 year old who was deported over night back to a country where he has no roots, despite the fact that he is deemed to be ofNigerian origin.
Last week there was a celebration of Ireland and Irishness all over the world. The main celebrants were the millions of Irish people and their descendants who were not able to earn a living in this country and who were thus forced to emigrate.
Hear, hear.
These are the people who are now rightly lobbying the political stalwarts in the United States on behalf of the undocumented Irish. There is a strong ongoing lobby in respect of legalising the status of young undocumented Irish people. There is considerable doublethink in respect of Ireland, our thinking, racism, coloured people and asylum.
I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Ryan. I tangled for four years and drew the sword out of the scabbard every day as spokesman on justice while Deputy O'Donoghue was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I genuinely believe he would not have done to the young man in question what has been done by the present Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. I know the Minister has a job to do and that he must impose the law but the one underpinning assurance he gave us was that he would use his discretion. If ever there was a case of discretion not being used, it is that of the deportation of this young man. We need to have a debate urgently.
I support the call by Senator O'Toole for consideration to be given to the retention of titles associated with this and the Lower House. Throughout the United States, a Member's image and title are certainly retained long after he or she ceases to be a Member of either House. There is a precedent in this country in that members of the Army retain their titles after their retirement. We should consider this and perhaps the Leader will do so in the near future.
Will the Leader consider a debate on the publication of the Competition Authority's annual report for 2004? I am delighted it has been issued this March. As Members will know, I have tabled amendments to various Bills setting up authorities stipulating that those authorities publish their annual reports within three months after the year to which reports pertain. The amendments are regularly considered but the period is adjusted to six months. The Competition Authority's report has been published within three months.
Consider the words of the chairman of the Competition Authority on pages 3 and 4 of the report where he states "Few if any of the restrictions on competition that the Authority has identified would survive the type of Regulatory Impact Analysis now envisaged in the "Regulating Better" paper produced in 2004 by the Dept of An Taoiseach." We have an obligation to demand that an impact analysis be carried out on all legislation that comes before us. We have asked unsuccessfully for this on a number of previous occasions. Occasionally, we have passed legislation for one purpose without recognising the impact it had on other areas and which could be quite devastating to other aspects of the economy. A debate on the issue in the near future would be useful.
I also wish to comment on the EU constitutional referendum that we are due to hold, although the Government has not yet decided when. However, something happened this week which served as a reminder, namely, the Stability and Growth Pact conditions that were laid down for the benefit of France and Germany have been waived or reduced considerably. It makes a mockery of having such a pact if, as soon as a country encounters difficulties, as have France and Germany, it is immediately reconsidered.
Hear, hear.
The reason is that it is doubtful whether France will vote in favour. It now appears that even the Netherlands may not vote in favour of the constitutional treaty. Senator Maurice Hayes has done a marvellous job at the Forum for Europe to ensure that the constitutional treaty and what we hope to achieve from it is explained. However, we must also ensure that others do not find ways of avoiding their responsibilities.
We are all aware that Ireland is one of the richest countries in Europe. However, I find it hard to reconcile this with the fact that last Friday evening and all day on Saturday, teachers from Scoil Treasa Naofa on Donore Avenue in the Liberties were packing bags for shoppers in Crumlin shopping centre to raise money for art supplies for their pupils. It is deplorable that teachers in a school in a seriously disadvantaged area of the city must give up their free time to raise money for supplies. The Leader should raise this matter urgently with the Minister for Education and Science.
Hear, hear.
I wish to join my colleagues in calling for more compassion and flexibility with regard to the deportation of this student and others. The Minister should review some of the cases where young students are being deported. It is hypocritical of the Government to carry on in this fashion when one sees the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs going to America and looking for special rights and green cards for Irish people.
Many other Senators are offering to contribute and this is——
At the same time, people are being deported. This is actually happening——
It is outrageous that the Senator could make such a comparison. He is playing politics and should tell that to the emigrants.
(Interruptions).
There are many other contributors. Does the Senator have——
On another issue, the missing persons helpline——
The Senator should go back to Longford.
Order, please. SenatorBannon should be allowed speak without interruptions.
It is an important and vital service that helps to trace many of the 2,000 people who are lost each year. Only last week we heard that the same Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is cutting the funding for this helpline. This is disgraceful and shameful and warrants a debate. I ask the Minister to come before this House to debate the issue before cutting the funding for this important national service.
I wish to express concern about the scale of the job losses being proposed by Bank of Ireland at the same time it announces record profits. As a customer of Bank of Ireland for some 40 years, I naturally have concerns for the people who have helped and served me. I deplore the macho management style which seems to measure success by the number of people that can be got rid of or fired. I would be more impressed if there was going to be a similar 10% cut in share options, salaries and other benefits at the very top of the bank.
Hear, hear.
We live in a partnership culture and this kind of measure should not be proposed without some consultation.
Like most Members, I would hesitate to interfere unduly in the affairs of a private company. However, even private companies have social responsibilities.
I join Senators O'Toole, Ryan and Higgins in expressing concern about the deportation of the young Nigerian boy three months before he was due to sit the leaving certificate. Will the Leader express our concern to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and request that he allow the boy to return? I ask this for two reasons, the first of which relates to the boy's welfare. It would be of great benefit to him to have the leaving certificate qualification if he is again deported to Nigeria. The second reason relates to the fact that we continually urge children to remain in school and complete their examinations. What sort of example are we giving to them if, three months before it is due to commence, we are depriving this boy of the opportunity to sit the examination? I am sure the Minister would consider the boy's case in a more favourable light if this was explained to him.
It is a reflection of the compassion this House shows that so many Members have expressed real concern about the plight of this young man. However, this is not the first case of its kind and sadly it will not be the last. It would be useful if the Leader of the House asked the Minister to clarify, as a matter of urgency, the circumstances under which this deportation took place. Many of us have been involved with these unfortunate cases and are aware that for too long the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has used a veil of silence whenever issues of this sort have been raised. The exact reasons for a deportation are never discovered and, instead, chapter and verse are quoted to anyone seeking answers.
Senator Bannon's linking of the valuable work representatives of the Government, irrespective of whichever party is in power, do during St. Patrick's week with our legitimate concerns about the undocumented Irish and the sad plight of a Nigerian boy was taking political comment too far.
Senator Mooney is being hypocritical.
One of the Government Senators admitted Ireland is one of the richest countries in the EU. However, it has the second highest class size in Europe. I have no doubt that we will hear much hypocrisy next weekend from Government Senators and Deputies as they visit the teacher unions' conferences.
Does Senator Browne have a question for the Leader?
They will nod their heads, agree with the delegates and yet do nothing afterwards.
Does Senator Browne have a question for the Leader?
The Leader should invite the Minister for Education and Science to come before the House following the recess in order that we might engage in a proper debate about class sizes and funding. I agree with Senator White about schools being forced to fund-raise. I recently heard about a school in Mayo which has four teachers and which is expected to raise in excess of €100,000 in order to obtain a new school building.
Will the Leader also arrange a debate on ComReg following the recess? There are many interesting aspects to the debate on ComReg in terms of issues such as mobile phone masts, regulation, etc. In particular, there is now a plan to introduce postal codes for the Dublin area. This plan should be extended nationwide. The ComReg report offers plenty of food for thought and it would be useful if we could have a debate on that topic.
I welcome Senator Mooney's comments. He has broken the silence on the Government benches regarding the unfortunate plight of the 19 year old Nigerian boy. It is important that a message goes out from the House that this is a humanitarian issue. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform can throw rules and bureaucracy at us in respect of this matter from whatever angle he chooses. However, from any moral standpoint, the decision to send a boy with these qualifications and ambitions who is about to sit his leaving certificate back home to a regime with questionable democratic principles is unjustifiable. I do not know what kind of a future awaits the boy here but it would be much brighter than his future in Nigeria.
The second issue I wish to address is that raised by Senator Mansergh about the banks. I completely agree with what he said. It is time the House examined the activities of banks, particularly when they are slashing and burning and cutting people's jobs willy-nilly. It is a good idea to reflect on why this happened. We are all to blame for allowing the banks to run a cartel for many decades.
Hear, hear.
It is not a cartel now.
Costs must now be cut due to international and global pressures on the banks but the people paying the price are never at the top, as Senator Mansergh rightly said. Two groups will pay the price for the mismanagement and exploitation by the banks over the years. One comprises their hard-working and loyal employees who were taken on board as a result of the banks developing a slush fund, sitting on the top of the Celtic tiger and running a cosy little arrangement between them. However, that arrangement cannot continue because of international pressures and it is the good people working in the banks and customers, the second group, who will pay the price.
I agree with the Senators who spoke about the difficulties witnessed on our streets on St. Patrick's Day. It is now time to have a debate in this House and elsewhere on ways through which we can reclaim our national day from the scenes that have become all too prevalent in recent years. There are examples of this throughout the country, particularly in Dublin, with incidents such as those that occurred on the DART and in other areas. It would be opportune to initiate a debate to examine what could be done in future.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on the structures of the Health Service Executive at the earliest possible opportunity? One of the Government's commitments when it was elected in 2002 was to shake up the health services but it has not done so. The health boards have been abolished but their underlying structures and officials are still in place, leading to extra levels of bureaucracy in the HSE. There are hospitals in which administrators are falling over one another but there are wings and wards in those hospitals without sufficient doctors and nurses to man them. It is important to debate this urgent matter.
I support the Senators who raised the issue of the Nigerian student and the manner in which he was deported. I will quote a comment he made to The Irish Times on 21 March 2005 when he was contacted in Lagos:
I had nowhere to go. When I was walking around I ran into some gangsters, who thought I had money on me. I was attacked and molested. My clothes were torn, I was starving and I had no medication for the injuries I had sustained.
This is appalling. That an Irish Minister is responsible for deporting this 18 year old is unforgivable and I will join the protest outside this House on 23 March to add my support to those campaigning for him.
It seems that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, is making reasonable efforts to reform the assessment for higher education grants but that her endeavours are being stifled by officials within the Department of Social and Family Affairs. They refuse to carry out an assessment similar to that for social welfare recipients. It is time the Minister stood firm. All too often the Minister for Finance has dictated policy in education but this is a new departure with regard to the application of the means test. There is an urgent need for reform if equity in access to these grants is to be had. As a former Minister for Education, the Leader will understand the need for this reform. Will she request that the Minister for Education and Science announce her intentions in one of the Houses of the Oireachtas before we read about them in the press?
Senator Brian Hayes raised the matter of the proposed amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill to ensure that staff in frontline services will be given greater protection than is the case at present. I will convey his views to the Minister. The Senator also suggested that we should stand in unity with the McCartney sisters against thuggery. All sectors of politics have shown good faith in respect of that family. I hope their valiant stand will yield results.
Senator O'Toole suggested that the title of Senator be formally retained when Members leave the service of the House. He specified that this should apply to Senators of substance. I do not know who would be responsible for deciding that.
It could apply to anybody with 20 years' service.
It is a convention but it is not so described. I understand people still do it but it is not stated that this should be the case. It is a fair point.
The Senator also referred to the Irish student who was returned to Lagos three months before sitting the leaving certificate. I cannot understand that. Ignoring the humanitarian aspect of this case, one would want him, on academic grounds, to complete his studies and leave with his certificate, which would be valid wherever he went. I will seek to see the Minister this afternoon in order to convey to him the combined views of Members.
Several Members referred to excessive drinking on St. Patrick's Day, which occurred everywhere and not just in Dublin. We have debated that topic on three occasions. If the parades were stopped, people would drink indoors rather than outdoors.
Senator Ryan raised the issue of firms from other countries which are not paying people proper wages. I brought this matter to the attention of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment two or three years ago. I was informed that no complaints had been received, to which I replied that I wished to make one. How can people who speak different languages be expected to understand the complexities of the rules that apply here?
Senator Ryan also referred to the deportation to Lagos and made clear that former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, would not have allowed such a situation to develop. The Senator also mentioned the EU ending the embargo on arms, a matter that was previously raised by Senator Mooney. It is time for a debate on this issue.
Senator Scanlon mentioned the draft guidelines on rural housing, particularly in terms of seven-year occupancy agreements. Circumstances can change in seven years for someone who obtained planning permission. A death could occur, circumstances might change or the requirements of children might come into play. We will endeavour to have a debate on that matter.
Senator Jim Higgins also referred to the deportation of that young man and said that he had unsheathed his sword from its scabbard against Deputy O'Donoghue. I thought he had unsheathed it against me.
That was an earlier era.
An earlier battle.
Senator Dooley also suggested that people should be allowed to retain the title of Senator. That title would fit nicely on him when he leaves the service of the House.
It would also fit nicely on the Leader.
Is Senator Dooley planning to retire?
(Interruptions).
The Senator could be referred to as "Senator-Minister Dooley" if his political career advances further.
Senator Quinn referred to the Competition Authority's annual report for 2004 and stated that impact analyses should be carried out on all items of legislation, in terms of how it might affect businesses or employees, before they are passed. We will seek a debate on that matter.
The Senator also referred to the Stability and Growth Pact. I was in Cabinet when that pact was the bible and when there was no deviation from its terms. It suited Ministers for Finance, and rightly so, to quote from the pact. Now, however, because France and Germany are cribbing, the provisions of the pact are apparently going to be relaxed. The unification of Germany is one of their reasons for this but that event occurred a long time ago. France and Italy are also seeking that the terms of the pact be relaxed to some degree. The Cathaoirleach is seeking a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges at which we can discuss how to accommodate the many suggestions relating to European participation.
Senator Mary White asked why teachers are packing bags in supermarkets to make money for their schools, particularly as Ireland is such a rich country. I have come across this in the area I represent. I congratulate the Senator for raising the matter. If she is as successful in highlighting it as she has been in respect of the child care issue, she will really have made an impact.
Senator Bannon asked for more compassion for emigrants. He also referred to the missing persons helpline. I understand, from newspaper reports, that the Garda authorities are of the view that it might be better if they were to follow up leads. I do not believe it is a matter of the Minister stating that something should be cut.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is cutting €50,000 that was provided.
The Leader, without interruption.
I congratulate the SenatorBannon on his appearance on radio last night. I notice he did not stand up for me. The Senator did not say a word.
A Senator
There is little of that type of thing in this business.
The area Senator Bannon represents is in the middle of the constituency.
The Leader is inviting trouble.
I am inviting trouble — big trouble.
The Leader was mentioned on the radio programme in question.
I was mentioned early on. I was going to contact the programme to inform those involved that I knew the reason I was sacked and to outline it for them.
Spill the beans.
They were afraid of the Leader.
Senator Mansergh referred to the proposed job losses at the Bank of Ireland. The Senator made the point that although it is a private company, it has social responsibilities. I was annoyed when I heard the chief executive of Bank of Ireland waffling this morning. One could imagine the boys in the club congratulating him. One can imagine him thinking that what he did would increase the bank's share price. However, he merely did it for effect. Why is the bank reducing its staff when it made €1.5 billion? I cannot understand the reasoning involved. The bank will lose its best staff and in my view the CEO will regret his decision in a year or two. There will be a complete regression. The bank was involved in a cartel but it now wants to get ahead of that cartel. How is that done? People are sacked and there is a policy of burning and plundering. There is a Latin word, vastare, which means “to lay waste”, and that is what the bank is doing.
Senators Henry and Mooney also referred to the plight of the young Nigerian student and the circumstances of his deportation. The best way to express our sympathy is to meet the relevant people — these include a family from Athlone with young children — when they visit the Houses tomorrow. Senator Browne sought debates, following the recess, on class sizes and ComReg.
Senator Ross referred to the humanitarian issue of the young man to whom other Members referred. The Senator also requested a debate on the banks. In that context, I would like to know what is the point of massive staff redundancies.
They talked this morning about a 60 cent increase in the share price.
The price went down yesterday.
That is what it will cost the workers — a 60 cent increase.
Senator John Paul Phelan spoke about excess drinking. He also said the structure of the health service has not changed despite its change of name to the Health Service Executive.
Senator McCarthy spoke about the Nigerian student whose telling description of what happened to him when he landed in Lagos was quoted. In addition to being a humanitarian issue, this is wrong in intellectual and academic terms.
Senator Ulick Burke spoke about the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, reforming the third level eligibility criteria. He hopes the Department of Social and Family Affairs will not intervene in that.
Order of Business agreed to.