The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on sustainable rural housing guidelines, to be taken on the completion of the Order of Business and to conclude at 1.30 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of the statements.
Order of Business.
Will the Leader take up the matter raised yesterday on the national airwaves with regard to the cutback affecting the State Pathologist, Dr. Cassidy? Until recently she was given a designated Garda driver to ensure she could get to the scenes of crimes in various parts of the country. This is a serious issue. Her job is difficult and gruesome and it is important she gets to crime scenes as quickly as possible to secure the evidence that will ultimately lead to a conviction. The State owes it to her and the service she provides to supply her with a designated Garda driver. I understand the State currently pays approximately €5.5 million a year to drive various people around the country, a considerable cost to the taxpayer. One extra person would not be a significant addition to that bill. I urge the Leader to take up this issue with the Government.
This week is the 90th anniversary of the Gallipoli landings during the First World War. Over 125,000 people from all countries were massacred in that awful battle in Turkey, some 3,500 of whom were Irish. It is only recently that their memory and courage has been recognised here.
I raise this issue not just to gain recognition for the 3,500 Irish people who gave their lives in that campaign, but also as an historical point. It is important to be aware that at some point in the future Turkey may be part of the enlarged European Union, something I support and welcome. We must ensure the enlargement of the European Union takes in all parts of the European map, particularly Turkey. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the House and brief us in the next few weeks on the current debate on Turkey and the process of enlargement? The first steps of that debate have begun within the European Union and a debate here would be worthwhile. There is great division within Europe as to whether Turkey should be part of the European Union. I passionately believe it should. The various voices in the House should be heard on the matter.
This House should support the State Pathologist on the issue of a driver and I do not think there would be a difference of views in the House on this matter. This is a serious matter. We know the roads because we are always on them. The idea that someone could drive to a murder scene in north Donegal and then drive to a similar scene in Kerry and operate at peak performance is asking too much. It is wrong. There is no doubt the State Pathologist should have a driver and we should appeal to the Minister to ensure this happens. The Minister says it is up to the Garda to supply a driver. As Senator White has stated previously, he is the most opinionated member of the Cabinet and I am sure he has an opinion on this matter. We should at least ask for his support to put our case to the Garda. It is a serious issue.
The State Pathologist has also made a quite superb offer. She said she is quite happy to make herself available to meet the families of people killed in circumstances that are the subject of Garda investigations. That would provide a great deal of comfort and support to families who often have to wait months and even years for the court process to conclude before finding out details of the death of a loved one. The Minister should articulate a clear view on these issues to see what can be done. I completely support Senator Brian Hayes in this regard.
Yesterday I sought a debate on the export of Irish waste to China. Last night I researched the impact of this policy on the province of Dong Yang in China and it is quite horrific. I was not aware when I raised this yesterday that a series of major demonstrations undertaken by ordinary people in the province was suppressed by the Chinese news agency. News of these demonstrations has only been leaked in recent days. Dark toxic clouds have been reported in the area, which are damaging the health of young children and leading to significant numbers of still births and babies born with deformities while various other difficulties are being experienced. During the most recent protest people were killed in an attempt to stop them demonstrating. This is the result of waste exported from Ireland and the UK being dumped on these people. The waste is sifted through for reusable goods and then it is burned in uncontrolled circumstances to the detriment of the health of the people in the area. This is unacceptable. What we are doing is barbaric and I would like a discussion on this issue.
The Taoiseach is in Madrid and it is ironic that one of the issues he is discussing is the official status of the Irish language in the EU, given that his party nominated and helped elect a member who cannot speak a word of the language to Údarás na Gaeltachta. That represents an exercise in political hypocrisy of the highest order. If we have a commitment to the Irish language, I hope Údarás na Gaeltachta will not find itself in a position——
The people elected him.
The people did not nominate him. He was nominated by a party which knew full well he could not utter a sentence in Irish and got him elected to Údarás. It is hard to recall an exercise in hypocrisy exceeding this.
Today's newspapers report on the EU's attempt to harmonise divorce legislation, which Senator Terry has raised in the House on a number of occasions. Anybody, like myself, who was on the losing side in the first divorce referendum in Ireland is well protected from sensitivities in this regard. I have no problem with the liberalisation of our divorce laws but I have a significant problem——
The Senator is losing the clerical vote.
The clerical vote I get did not vote for the present Pope.
(Interruptions).
Senator Ryan, without interruption.
I am doing my best but there are rowdy people from Kerry beside me.
This issue should be debated. A Green Paper was published at the time and the people were given undertakings during various EU referenda campaigns about what was involved. However, when things happen that people were assured would not happen, a debacle such as that threatened in France can result. I refer to the disconnection of the EU project from the will of the people. If a referendum passed in this State under certain conditions by a majority of 0.1% of the population is to be overturned by a treaty in which divorce was never mentioned, we will be serious hostages to those who want to persuade us the EU project is essentially anti-democratic. It is up to Ireland to insist upon a resolution to this issue, which does not undermine the constitutional decision taken here.
People who lie on trolleys for three days in accident and emergency units are still charged €55 a day for the privilege. The very least the Government could do is waive that charge immediately for those who are left on trolleys. The notion that they should be charged as if they received full hospital services is about as insulting as it gets. I invite the Government to issue an instruction immediately to the HSE to exempt people on trolleys from this charge.
I support the call by Senator Brian Hayes to ensure a driver is available to the State Pathologist at all times. A total of €45 million was spent last year on the out-of-hours doctor service, which includes the provision of drivers for every doctor and new vehicles. Given that this service is available for doctors visiting sick people, a similar service should be available for the State Pathologist who must do a difficult job in gruesome circumstances.
I welcome the Taoiseach's visit to Madrid to discuss the EU constitution and the official status of the Irish language in the Union. We discussed the issue and it has the full support of the House. Let us hope Ireland and other countries who are seeking official status for their languages can make progress. Senator Ryan should note people have the opportunity to learn Irish every day, including young children attending gaelscoils.
Údarás na Gaeltachta is not a language school.
I strongly support the call by Senator Brian Hayes regarding the State Pathologist. Many millions are being squandered by the Government. The State Pathologist is a responsible office. The person can be called on to do great work at any hour of the day in any part of the State. She is often called to places off the beaten track and it is ridiculous that a Garda driver cannot be made available to her, given that she often cannot access locations without Garda assistance. I do not understand this and, as Senator Brian Hayes said, the securing of evidence is absolutely vital. The House should call on the Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to right that glaring wrong.
I would like to express full agreement with the point made. The State Pathologist is an exceptionally capable official doing a difficult and gruesome job. If drivers can be provided to doctors at night, as Senator Kitt said, one should be provided for Dr. Cassidy.
I refer to the issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes. If I remember my classical mythology correctly, Europa was a heifer roaming the plains of Turkey until Jove in the form of a bull carried her off.
He stopped her gallop.
Reference to animals is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I was elected to the agricultural panel.
I fully agree with Senator Ryan on the subject of divorce. If ever there was a case where the principle of subsidiarity applied, it is this. There are no economic issues directly involved.
I have raised this issue several times. A survey conducted by Macra na Feirme, details of which were published in the Irish Examiner this morning, quite clearly illustrates the lack of competition in the insurance sector and in particular demonstrates the discrimination perpetrated by insurance companies against young male drivers. Six profile studies of the seven main insurance companies show that a 20 year old student living in County Kildare and driving a 1997 Fiat car worth €1,300 was quoted a maximum of €4,100 and a minimum of €2,346. First, that demonstrates quite clearly that insurance companies are still discriminating against young people by charging them inordinate sums for insurance. Second, it shows a lack of competition in the area. When one sees differences of up to €2,000, one realises something is inherently wrong.
Hear, hear.
I would appreciate the Leader arranging a debate on that subject, with the Minister in attendance, so that we might clarify the situation.
I have never experienced such a unifying approach on the Irish language as that seen on the issue of achieving official working status for it in the EU.
Once the Government came around to the idea.
This House can take a great deal of credit for that. One of the best things that happened was that all the political parties, possibly in an historic sense, signed a motion that we debated. No one was more proactive in his support than Senator Ryan for which I certainly give him credit. There will be a great deal of disappointment in the country if we are not successful. Having listened to the report on "Morning Ireland", it seems that a great deal of politics is obviously going on in the background. I wish the Taoiseach well.
The debate here was all positive, but it was also well understood that there would have to be a mixture of patience and enthusiasm. We will have to be patient with those not fortunate enough to have Irish and careful that it does not become a "them and us" issue or simply another linguistic preference. We must realise that in many ways we are talking about integrating general activities regarding English, Irish and other languages in Ireland and the EU. I therefore wish the Taoiseach well, and I hope that the unity that we have experienced not only in the Oireachtas but among the general public and the media, which surprised many people, will continue to prevail.
I lend my support to the call from various Members across the House for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, to attend regarding a total review of the conditions under which Dr. Marie Cassidy operates as our State Pathologist. If it is a question of resources alone, there is no justification for denying her proper funding, especially when one considers that €5 million is spent on spin doctors, some of whom do not do the work they are supposed to do regarding reports.
They do not fulfil their briefs.
I believe there have been many other instances. However, Dr. Cassidy has also raised the question of her isolation and restriction regarding speaking to relatives. She is obviously a person of great humanity and has clearly stated that, judging from her previous experiences, the operation in Ireland is very restrictive and that there should be such a facility. I call on the Minister immediately to review the entire situation regarding the conditions under which she must work. She particularly instances stress, and anything that might alleviate that, whether it be the provision of transport or some more open and less restrictive practices in the area, should be acceded to as a matter of urgency.
I also support Senator Ryan on the question of the daily charge of €55 for those waiting on trolleys in hospital accident and emergency departments. Allied to that, there is a particularly disgusting situation regarding health service charges, whereby a person involved in an accident, major or minor, entering a hospital, is charged anything from €800 per night. When the person is discharged from the accident and emergency department, he or she finds that the bill has already arrived home, despite the fact that there might be no claim or involvement on the part of insurance companies. It is important that the entire area of hospital charges, especially in accident and emergency departments, be streamlined and made efficient.
I too ask the Leader for a debate on car insurance. Any individual who goes to the trouble of making a few telephone calls can secure a reduction of up to €200 for an experienced driver. I compliment the Tánaiste on her work in that capacity. If one visits the websites, one will find the necessary information to get a better quote.
I support the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, and others who have raised the issue of transport for the State Pathologist, Dr. Marie Cassidy. I listened to the radio interview yesterday. She is a tremendous official and shows great spirit while carrying out a very difficult job in difficult circumstances. I was really shocked to hear that she has to drive herself all over the country. At any time of the night she may receive a telephone call and must respond quickly. I urge the Leader to ask the Minister to act quickly in this regard and ensure that she be given every assistance to carry out her job in the best possible fashion. Providing her with transport or a driver would make that job a little easier.
Senator Ryan mentioned that we had raised the issue of the EU directive on divorce in this House before. I asked for a debate on it at that time, but we have not yet had that. It is a very important issue, and I am glad the Senator has raised it once again this morning. It flies in the face of what the people of this country decided regarding our rules on divorce, namely, that a couple must have been living apart for four of the previous five years in order to obtain one. Now, if one half of a couple is living abroad or has had an address abroad for a year, that person may seek a divorce.
A related issue is the custody of children, which is also to be decided in a manner contrary to our rules. It is of extreme concern to many parents, particularly where one separated parent may be a foreign national now living abroad. Such a person may now seek custody of children from this country. The issue must be debated as quickly as possible. I ask the Leader to organise that debate.
What has been coming from the European Commission——
(Interruptions).
Order. Time is moving on, and someone may be denied a chance to speak.
The Commission statement regarding the directive is yet another example of somebody, somewhere in the EU, deciding that he or she wishes to interfere in the domestic politics of this country in an adverse fashion, just as they did to an extraordinary degree during the debate on the Treaty of Nice, when Romano Prodi came to Ireland, more or less lecturing us on what we should do. If the EU Commission and those who support the European ideal are anxious to ensure that the constitutional treaty is passed in this country, they are certainly going about it in a very strange way.
There is no question whatsoever in my mind that, irrespective of what has been in the media and the points made this morning, the EU has no competence in this area, and it certainly cannot override a decision taken by the sovereign people of this country. I urge the Leader to listen to what has been said this morning. This House has regularly trumpeted itself as the most obvious location for debates on Europe, and there has not really been an ongoing discussion on that issue, something I now consider vital in the run-up to the debate on the constitutional treaty.
I believe that the Leader fully supports that view. I know that she must deal with Ministers regarding various issues with a European dimension. However, I urge her to ensure, in accordance with the sentiment of this House on all sides, that it be used henceforth in a much more proactive fashion to inform the people of this country about the constitutional treaty, which runs to almost 500 pages. It is a very complex document but is being portrayed as a simple housekeeping exercise.
A recent report indicated that Ireland has the highest level of ground water pollution in the EU. The health and safety of thousands of people are at risk because of the serious problems in many towns and villages throughout Ireland. The Government has failed to invest an adequate level of funding in group water and sewerage schemes. There is a long waiting list for the funds needed to put in place this important infrastructure in small towns and villages. I know of at least seven communities in County Longford, which has one of the smallest populations of any county, which are waiting for water and sewerage systems to be provided. I am sure the position is the same in County Westmeath and many other counties. It is important that the House should debate the need for this important infrastructure throughout the country. The recent action taken by the European Union demonstrates that the Government has been negligent in this area.
The Senator can make such points during the debate on the matter.
There is an urgent need for a debate on the Government's failure to do its job in this respect.
We cannot have the debate on the Order of Business.
I ask the Leader to encourage the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to come to the House to speak about this issue.
I am always grateful to Senator Mansergh for lighting up my day with classical allusions. I cannot help thinking that the next time Europa and Turkey get together in any seminal way, the agency will be a man in a bowler hat from Brussels. I support the Senator's underlying theme — the need for a debate on hugely important European matters such as subsidiarity. Some groundbreaking work needs to be done in that respect.
I support Senator Ó Murchú's remarks about the Irish language. I would like to inform the House that the meeting of the Forum on Europe in Gaoth Dobhair on Monday night was conducted entirely through Irish. The people who attended the meeting appreciated that. Many speakers at the meeting asked about the language directive.
I join other Members in expressing my appreciation of the work of Dr. Marie Cassidy. While I do not know her, it seems to me that she is a most exemplary public servant. She should be supported in every way.
Hear, hear.
I join Senators in trying to ensure that the State Pathologist, Dr. Marie Cassidy, is provided with the services of a State driver. In that context, it might be appropriate to ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the issue of value for money. The Members of the Oireachtas, some of whom have two Garda drivers, should lead by example and consider whether cutbacks can be made nearer to home. Many private sector businesses and public sector agencies are examining their overheads with a view to ensuring that value for money is achieved.
The money being allocated to many county enterprise boards, including that in County Roscommon, has decreased. I noticed this morning that parts of this building were being sandblasted, as part of an operation that was ongoing when I was elected to the House almost three years ago. Perhaps it is time for the Seanad to discuss the issue of value for money. We should lead by example. If we want people to tighten their belts and businesses to streamline their activities, it might be a good idea for those of us in these offices to act in a similar manner.
For the second day in a row, Senator Ryan has made disparaging comments about an elected member of Údarás na Gaeltachta.
Nothing I said is disparaging. It is true.
Natural justice——
No. I cannot allow that.
Like Senator Ó Murchú, whose balanced approach to the Irish language and lack of elitism is a credit to him, I would like to call for a debate on this issue. Having spoken to the person referred to by Senator Ryan, I assure the House that he does speak Irish, like all members of Údarás na Gaeltachta.
Did Senator Leyden speak to him in Irish?
When I spoke to him this morning, he refuted the claims made by Senator Ryan yesterday. The Senator's comments were totally inaccurate.
We are not discussing the Údarás na Gaeltachta elections.
If Senator Ryan is not willing to name names, he should forever stay silent on this issue.
I call Senator Paddy Burke.
Go raibh míle maith agat.
I support Senator O'Toole's request for a debate on waste management and recycling. Such a debate would be worthwhile in the context of the danger that the EU will impose substantial fines on this country. The costs of recycling and disposing of waste are increasing constantly. I support Senator O'Toole's demand for a debate as a matter of urgency.
It was suggested some time ago by Senator Brian Hayes that the House should debate the proposed EU constitution with the Members of the European Parliament from this country. The Senator subsequently informed me that MEPs will have a home week — MEPs spend one week in every four or five weeks in their home member states — in the middle of May. After the officials of this House acquired details of the MEPs' addresses, they sent letters to each of them earlier this week.
Good.
We have not yet received replies from the MEPs because the letters have just been sent. I have mentioned to the Cathaoirleach that we have invited all the Irish MEPs to come to the House to talk about the EU constitution. I will report the progress that we make in that respect to the House at it happens.
Senator Brian Hayes's proposal was an excellent idea, which was followed up as soon as details of the MEPs' home week were received. We showed a good level of innovation in recent years when we invited MEPs to address the House individually. Some of them were good and the meetings went well, but that was not the case in other instances. We should have a good debate on the EU constitution when all the Irish MEPs are present in the House. We are looking forward to our European day, which should take place in the week beginning 16 May next, depending on the day that best suits all the MEPs. It will be difficult to get their preferred dates to coincide, but we hope it will be possible. The matter was followed up reasonably satisfactorily after it was raised by many Senators some time ago. I hope it will have a good conclusion and a good audience.
Hear, hear.
On previous occasions, I found it very upsetting that so few Senators were in the Chamber when an MEP was present, especially after we had gone to so much trouble to make the arrangements. If we are to have a European day, it would be appropriate if all Senators, including those who have asked this morning for a debate on European matters, were present in the House. However, I appreciate that it is a matter for individual Senators.
Senator Brian Hayes made the case for a State driver being assigned to the State Pathologist, Dr. Marie Cassidy. While I did not hear the interview with Dr. Cassidy yesterday, I heard excerpts from it on "Morning Ireland" this morning. It was very forthright. As the comments I have heard on the matter are not very clear, I will speak about it directly to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Senator Hayes also spoke about the 90th anniversary of the Gallipoli landings. He mentioned that 3,500 Irish people were killed during the battle that followed. Our understanding of history tells us that the strategic military decision that was made in that instance was wrong. The Senator raised the matter in the context of the possibility of including Turkey in an enlarged EU. I hope to hear the views of Irish MEPs on the matter when they come to the House. I do not know whether Senators recall an appalling scene that was shown in a news report on a Sunday evening approximately two months ago. The report showed the Turkish police beating approximately 150 Turkish women who were protesting.
Yes.
Perhaps it was a May Day protest.
It was International Women's Day.
Yes. It took place in March. Although the 150 women were not threatening, they were being beaten to the ground with batons by the police. It showed an appalling lack of regard for people's civil rights. While Turkey is keen to join the EU, it has much to learn. This issue should be considered during the debate that will take place when the Irish MEPs are in the House. I will speak about the matter on that occasion.
Senator O'Toole discussed the problems being encountered by Dr. Marie Cassidy. I will telephone the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform after I leave the Chamber.
The Senator also talked about the waste management debate. It is clear from his comments about the demonstrations in Dong Yang in China that he was busy on the Internet overnight. The demonstrations have been hidden from the international community because China does not like any bad news about anything to emerge.
We are going down that road in this country.
We are hoping to have the debate on waste next week.
Senator Ryan referred to the Taoiseach speaking in Madrid on language policy. It is great the Taoiseach is talking about this issue but I did not like the comments from France listing all the other languages it has. Senator Ryan also raised the issue of divorce in the context of harmonisation of EU law and credited Senator Terry, who had raised it previously. Many people who voted in favour of divorce were reassured by the fact that couples had to be separated for four years before divorce. I am not moralising as I was a supporter of divorce. Many people crossed the line and voted in favour of divorce because of this reassurance. Divorce was not rushed and there could be a period of reflection. I have seen cases where that has helped. The idea that we have to harmonise our laws is something we need to debate. I do not think there is enough substance to warrant a two-hour debate but perhaps it can be linked to another issue. We could also link it with a special European day.
Senator also Ryan referred to paying €55 for lying on a trolley. This is not just excessive but wrong when one has not yet had access to the hospital ministrations. Senator Kitt raised the matter of the State Pathologist and notes that doctors have drivers when they are on night calls. The Senator also raised the status of the Irish language. Senator Coghlan also referred to the case of the State Pathologist. I will contact the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform this morning. Senator Mansergh raised the issues of the State Pathologist and divorce.
Senator McCarthy mentioned quotes for insurance. Although everyone is trying to claim credit it is the legislation the Tánaiste brought in that lowered insurance premiums. Telephoning insurance companies to compare rates leads to a reduction in premiums. Last year I called several companies and got a reduction. I told the House it was €250. One company called me back one year later even though I had not contacted it since. It promised me a much lower quote. The companies are in the market for customers.
Senator Ó Murchú wished the Taoiseach well in Spain. Senator Ulick Burke raised the matter of the isolation, restriction and stress of the State Pathologist. The Senator also referred to the charge for hospital trolleys. Senator Brennan referred to insurance costs and the Tánaiste, and Senator Terry wants a debate on the State Pathologist, the custody of children and the harmonisation of EU law regarding divorce. Senator Mooney pointed out that EU directives might be interfering in domestic policy and questioned whether the EU had competence in this area. The point was raised by either Senator Ryan or Senator O'Toole that voters feel disconnected from Europe. No matter what way the question of divorce is resolved voters will feel increasingly disconnected.
Senator Bannon referred to water pollution and group water schemes.
It is in Longford and Westmeath.
There are grants for such schemes and I know Longford will be busy getting that work done. Senator Maurice Hayes sought a debate on Europe and praised Senator Ó Murchú and the Irish language. The Senator also noted his appreciation for Dr. Marie Cassidy. Senator Feighan proposed a debate on value for money. The Senator mentioned the enterprise board in his own county, which has less resources at the moment, and the sandblasting of this building. Keeping buildings in good condition is a very good way of spending money.
Senators
Hear, hear
Senator Leyden expressed his regret at remarks made in the House by Senator Ryan, and has spoken to the individual concerned. Senator Paddy Burke raised the matter of waste and recycling. We hope to have that debate next week. The House will not sit on Tuesday next week.
Order of business agreed to.