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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 May 2005

Vol. 180 No. 13

Constitution for Europe: Statements.

On the Order of Business, we agreed the time slot for each speaker would be approximately six minutes. The Cathaoirleach allowed for the leader of each group to take one minute to welcome the MEPs, most of whom have arrived and others will arrive later. We are very gratified by the response and the agreement of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to allow the MEPs contribute to a discussion on the forthcoming EU constitution which will be of significance to this country.

As befits this Chamber varying opinions will be expressed during the discussion. Indeed this House has heard many and varied opinions on numerous matters, as is proper. Last year the House had visits from individual MEPs who informed us of their work in Europe and details of the committees on which they serve. That was most interesting, particularly as it is agreed a knowledge gap exists about what happens in Europe. This is probably also the case in other member states.

This is a fine Chamber which will be properly used. A precedent was set to allow for such an occasion to take place. I offer a personal welcome as Leader of the House to our MEPs present.

On behalf of the Fine Gael group I thank all our colleagues from the European Parliament who are attending this debate. They have not all arrived yet but will be joining in throughout the day. I am delighted to welcome the Fine Gael MEP, Deputy Simon Coveney. Our four other colleagues will be here later.

This is a momentous day for the House, connecting the European parliamentarians representing this country in Brussels and Strasbourg with the plenary session of the House. This was one of the key recommendations in the document on proposals for reform of Seanad Éireann. I look forward to the debate which will be held between now and 5 p.m. and to the contributions from all sides.

I echo what my two colleagues have said. This occasion is a form of joined-up democracy in which those elected to different fora and at different levels engage with each other, which is very important.

I welcome our two colleagues from the European Parliament to the Independent benches. Deputy Marian Harkin, a well-known community voice and a voice for the west is a Deputy and an MEP. She is a member of the Regional Development Committee of the European Parliament and is an independent voice. I am very happy to welcome her on that basis as an Independent MEP.

Mary Lou McDonald, MEP, is definitely not an Independent. She is here to make history, being the first elected Sinn Féin representative to address Seanad Éireann. We look forward to hearing her contribution. She gives me to understand her voice is less likely to be in agreement with some others in the House but that is to be welcomed. Mary Lou McDonald is a member of the Employment and Social Affairs Committee of the European Parliament.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht agus roimh Bhaill Pharlaimint na hEorpa atá i láthair. I am perhaps unique among the group leaders in that I am the only one who had some European ambitions at the last European election. I am glad the voters of Munster decided I was better off in this House and obviously since I could not go to Europe, I had to do my best to bring Europe here.

The Members of the European Parliament are very welcome. This is a very important, symbolic occasion in terms of creating a level of democratic accountability within our own Parliament for what happens in the European institutions as there is a significant gap in terms of knowledge and debate.

I welcome all our colleagues, in particular, Proinsias De Rossa from my own party, a distinguished Member of the European Parliament who has given considerable service and has considerable knowledge. He has been an enlightening figure for many of us in the Labour Party about the positive aspects of the European project by giving a deeper understanding of what Europe needs to learn. I am looking forward to the debate which I believe will be lively and a good launch to what I hope will be a serious national discussion about the European constitution.

I join in the general welcome to the MEPs and concur that this is a special day in this House. I welcome in particular, Eoin Ryan, MEP, who is present and Brian Crowley, MEP, who is on his way from the airport. As a member of the Joint Committee on European Affairs it was a matter of considerable pride for me to attend yesterday in Luxembourg the 33rd plenary session of COSAC, the umbrella group for those committees and inform it of this event. There was considerable surprise and admiration for the fact that a debate of this nature had been arranged. I hope it will be one of a number of ongoing debates. I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Leader for their role in arranging this debate.

This event helps to bring the European Parliament closer to the citizens of the Union by affording a platform within the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, who is present, was also very active in this regard when he was a Minister of State with responsibility for these matters. He held an important conference in Wicklow about aspects of this work. This is a good day and we look forward to what our guests have to say.

As Cathaoirleach, I would like to be associated with the words of welcome for our guests. This is an important day for Seanad Éireann. Four of our MEPs served in this House and I had the honour of serving with them. They are welcome back today. I am sure they benefited from the debates in this House.

I too congratulate and compliment the Seanad on what is a novel arrangement, which is unique in Europe. It represents a great use of this Chamber and, as Senator O'Toole has said, is an excellent way of interlinking the various democratic strands.

I am pleased to take this opportunity to involve myself in the discussions today. I am happy to recognise on behalf of the Government the importance of the contribution of the European Parliament to the European constitutional treaty and to the convention that formed it. In particular I compliment the work of the Irish MEPs in that regard. The European Parliament played a major role in the negotiation of the European constitutional treaty through the participation of its Members in the Convention on the Future of Europe and through its continuing involvement in the subsequent Intergovernmental Conference.

One of the features of the European constitution is the way it will strengthen the European Parliament's legislative and budgetary functions making it in most areas a co-equal legislator with the Council of Ministers. Moreover, the resolution on the constitution, which was adopted by the Parliament earlier this year and recently published in all our national newspapers, is a lucid and forceful statement of the case for the constitutional treaty. It was resoundingly endorsed by the majority of MEPs from across the political spectrum and from all sections and parts of Europe. This was an authoritative and credible statement from a wide and diverse range of democratically elected public representatives.

On a point of order, would it be possible for us to get a copy of the Minister's script?

That is a matter for the Minister.

That is why I am asking.

I will make sure Members get a copy this morning.

Are any copies available now?

May I continue, a Leas-Chathaoirleach?

I just want to know whether any copies are available now?

It is a matter for the Minister. He is not compelled to provide a script.

In other words it is not available.

As I was saying before I was interrupted, the view taken by the MEPs across the political spectrum and from all corners of Europe was an authoritative and credible statement from a wide and diverse range of democratically elected public representatives.

I will now set out briefly how the Government is approaching the ratification of the European constitution. I will also focus on six core positive reasons for supporting the constitution. In so doing I will address a few of the negative arguments and new myths which are being advanced.

The Government intends very soon to publish the Bill amending Bunreacht na hÉireann to allow for ratification by the State of the European constitution. As is widely known, we have been consulting with the main Opposition parties with a view to reaching consensus on the exact text of the wording. While that process has inevitably taken some time, I expect it to be completed soon. Some sensational and inaccurate speculation has taken place about endorsement of the constitutional treaty and what that will mean.

One recently promulgated myth is that it will in some way remove the right of the people to vote on future major treaty change. That is a myth and an untruth. However, it will not stop it being perpetuated and pedalled. The situation will remain as now. Major treaty change will have to be negotiated through a convention and then an Intergovernmental Conference. If it were deemed to go outside the scope and objectives of the current treaties, then under the terms of the Crotty judgment, a referendum would be required in Ireland. On the other hand, as is currently the case, if such change does not go outside the scope and objectives of the treaties, no referendum would be required. In other words, the situation will remain precisely as it is now. I mention this as one of the parties represented in the Chamber today, showing breathless disregard for the truth, has recently been pedalling the opposite view. The Government will be prepared to amend the Bill to avoid unnecessary controversy over this point.

Following publication of the Bill, it would be the Government's intention to schedule some of the Oireachtas debate on it before the summer recess and to complete the legislative process later. It remains the case that no decision has been taken on the timing of the referendum — our commitment and requirement is to ratify by November 2006. Publication of the Bill will allow me to make an order establishing the Referendum Commission. The Government is determined that it will have the time and resources it needs, as it did for the second referendum on the Nice treaty. In June the Government will publish a White Paper to complement the earlier explanatory guide it published last year. We will send a short information booklet to every household — probably in the autumn. Copies of the constitution are available on the special Department of Foreign Affairs website, and are also available free of charge from the European Commission office in Dublin and from the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I now turn to the substance of the constitution. We should support the constitutional treaty for many reasons. The first reason for supporting the European constitution is that it introduces much greater legal and political clarity than exists at present. Up to now, the European Union has been based on a series of treaties, dating back to the 1950s, which have been amended piecemeal over the years. The constitution will replace that tangle of treaties with a single document. Moreover, the Union's basic values, objectives, principles and powers are set out much more clearly than before. The relationship between the European Union and its member states is described more clearly than ever before, as is who does what in the European Union. In an all-important area, the number of legal instruments is cut from 15 to six.

I will not claim that the European constitution will win any awards for its prose style. It was legally necessary to carry forward a great mass of detail into Part III of the treaty. However, the first part of the constitution, which sets out the basic values and principles underpinning the Union's activities, is much more lucid and coherent than any previous treaty in describing what the Union is and does. I honestly believe that any interested citizen who takes the trouble to read Part I, the first 60 articles, covering a mere 29 well-spaced pages of large type, will have a far greater understanding of the Union than has ever before been possible.

While the constitution makes some important changes, it does not substantially alter the current nature of the European Union or how it relates to the member states. It is absolutely untrue to state that it creates some kind of federal super-state. The word "federal" got some excited debate during the course of the convention and those who bothered to pay attention to it will realise the word was consigned to the bin. It is made crystal clear that the Union only has the competences which its member states unanimously have chosen to give it. The list of those powers is basically the same as in the current treaties, under which Ireland has thrived.

It is important to recall those powers, which remain exclusively or overwhelmingly with the member states. They include the powers to create war and peace; law and order; taxation; pensions and social welfare; infrastructural development; education; health; culture and the arts. The Union's total budget remains at approximately 1% of our gross national income. An ongoing debate is taking place as to whether this should be 1% or 1.02%. Anybody who believes it would be possible to create a super-state on that basis is not remotely connected with reality. There is not much hope of a super-state on a budgetary contribution of 1% or less of gross national income.

The document is a constitution inasmuch as it sets down in one place the basic law of the European Union, just as national constitutions set down the basic law of the member states. However, the legal form of the constitution remains a treaty between sovereign independent states. I emphasise this point as a few nights ago I listened to a councillor argue that the opposite was the case. The principle of the primacy of Union law, which is now treated as a somewhat sinister principle, has been in place since well before Ireland entered the Union and, by definition, it only operates in those areas where the member states have decided to pool their sovereignty and give the Union its competence.

A second reason for supporting the European constitution is the unique approach to preparing it. In the past, European Union treaties were largely negotiated by diplomats and officials behind closed doors. The European constitution was totally different. The draft text was prepared by a European Convention in which representatives of governments, national parliaments, the European Parliament and the EU Commission all played a part. I was proud to be a member of the Irish team, which included John Bruton, Proinsias de Rossa MEP and Deputies Gormley and Carey. It had more Opposition than Government representatives, and I believe that was an inspired decision made collectively across the political parties in this State. It meant that we were unique in that we were representative of the political parties in the Houses of the Oireachtas and, more importantly, that Ireland was very well represented on each of the groups within Europe. John Bruton was a member of the Presidium.

The Convention met for a year and a half. All 49 days of its plenary sessions were in public. It held a series of fundamental debates on key aspects of the Union. All its working papers and contributions from members were published immediately on the web, as were all the successive drafts of constitutional articles and any amendments proposed to them. It was an absolute model of openness and transparency, and those who say otherwise are simply attempting to mislead. There have been attempts, particularly by Ms McDonald, MEP, who is in this House, to suggest that this was a sham and that the Presidium ran the entire show. I do not recall seeing her much in and around the Convention, but I was there for its entirety, and I can advise her absolutely that in this, as in so much else, she is deluded.

There was, of course, a steering group. What body of any size would not have a central organ? It is possible that Sinn Féin has one too, as do bodies closely associated with that party. However, the point is that there was a real and genuine openness to debate and amendment. For instance, to take an area I worked on intensively, the Convention's final drafts on institutional matters, such as the Commission and the Council, were dramatically different from those put before the Convention by Mr. Giscard d'Estaing. They were changed on the floor of the Convention by a combination of small and medium-sized member states.

The outcome of the Convention was widely welcomed. It is ultimately the prerogative of governments to change the EU treaties, subject to national ratification. However, the governments were very supportive of the draft prepared by the Convention. Some 90% still stood after the Intergovernmental Conference, or IGC, which followed. That was clear evidence of the strength of the unique working method.

Was it perfect? Of course not, but it comes as close to perfection as we are ever likely to get. It was open, transparent and all-inclusive. Not only were the 15 member states fully represented; the ten accession states were represented too, as were the three to follow them, and all the national parliaments. NGOs had a say. The Commission had only two members present, and member governments were also represented. For anyone to say that this was anything other than an open and transparent method is myth-peddling.

Of course, it was the Irish Presidency of the EU that brokered the final agreement, though many thought it would be impossible in the timeframe. It was an immense achievement for the country, Irish democracy and diplomacy and, most importantly, for the Taoiseach personally, something that has been internationally recognised and applauded. I do not want to blow the Government's trumpet, but one point should be made. The key role that Ireland played shows how effectively small member states can contribute in a Union of 450 million people.

A third reason for supporting the constitution is that it will help make the European Union more democratic and open in a range of ways. For instance, the role of national parliaments is considerably enhanced. They will now have the power to intervene directly in the legislative process where they believe that the Commission is proposing something that might better be done at a national level — the subsidiarity principle.

As I said earlier, the rights of the European Parliament will also be increased in several policy areas. Clearly, in a unique and complex system such as Europe's, it will never be straightforward to ensure that the link between citizens and institutions is as direct and responsive as it can be at national level. However, taken together, the changes that I have mentioned are very welcome and a tremendous step in the right direction. It is entirely clear that, once again, they represent a major advance on current institutional arrangements.

A fourth reason for supporting the constitution is that it strengthens the rights of individual citizens. The Charter of Fundamental Rights is an integral and legally binding part of the constitution. It lists the rights and principles to be respected and observed, from classical civil and political rights to social and economic rights. It should be clear that the charter will apply to EU institutions, and to member states when they are implementing Union law. As an Irish citizen, I will have my rights regarding the Irish State protected by Bunreacht na hÉireann and those regarding Europe protected by the constitutional treaty. That is a great step forward. When Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, was here, he rightly described it as one of the most significant developments that we have seen. Moreover, the EU as a whole is to become party to the European Convention on Human Rights, and the Strasbourg-based European Court will be an external monitor of the Union's own adherence to human rights, playing the same oversight role as it does for national governments.

A fifth reason for supporting the constitutional treaty is that it makes several very significant changes to the Union's institutions. We must have a strong interest in a dynamic and effective Commission, and that is what is achieved here, since there is more balance than before. In future, every member state will be treated as an equal regarding the Commission. A new voting system in the Council, based on achieving clear majorities both of member states and of the population of the Union, is fairer, clearer, more logical, and more effective than the current complex arrangements. Member states will continue to chair most Councils on the basis of equal rotation. There are new posts of President of the European Council and Union foreign ministers, but those functions already exist, and the posts bring more coherence and clarity to the Union.

The Union's common foreign and security policy, of which its security and defence policy is an integral part, is also strengthened. The usual criticisms have been made. The other night I listened to a Sinn Féin councillor arguing that this was somehow creating a military superstate. I was struck once again with the breathless disregard for truth and logic that the party sometimes shows — a disregard that would have made the late Dr. Goebbels blush. First, the EU's values and objectives — international peace, stability, respect for human rights and the promotion of democracy and justice — are enshrined in the constitution and supported by every democrat. Let me ask two questions. Does any serious observer of the international scene believe that the problem is that Europe is too strong and too assertive? The answer is "No". What can we deduce from the fact that among those who criticise the Union's efforts to develop its capacity are, apart from Sinn Féin and their fellow-travellers on one extreme, some of the leading American neo-con ideologues on the other?

The sixth reason is that, over the last 20 years, there have been four new treaties. This constitutional treaty brings more coherence and an end to a period when Europe was continually re-inventing itself. Very often, the same issues were kicked from one conference to the next, and there were left-over issues. After this treaty, however, there will be no left-overs. Key issues were so thoroughly debated in the Convention and IGC that the final outcome is recognised as balanced in every way. There have once again been the usual myths and arguments about where we are regarding Eurofederalism and Euroscepticism. It is time that people recognised that the European Union is unique in that it is neither, being a union of member states that have come together and pooled their sovereignty to achieve great things. No one who has any sense of history, as we celebrate the 60th anniversary of the ending of the butchery on the continent that was the Second World War, could argue that the construction of the Union has not been an entirely happy period in history.

There is a banner headline that another Europe is possible, something very often glibly and fatuously put forward. I suggest that it is misleading. If this constitutional treaty fails, there is simply no prospect that a substantially different document can be negotiated. Instead, the Union will be cast into a period of divisiveness and uncertainty, in no one's interest. It would have to continue to operate on the basis of existing treaties which, while serviceable, are clearly inferior to this.

There is another sense in which another Europe is possible, however. We know from history what that Europe means. It would be a Europe of narrow nationalism and selfish balance of power politics. Anybody who has any sense of history or the truth knows exactly where that Europe brought us. We have been marking the 60th anniversary of its end in western Europe. The new member states that joined a year ago have more recent and bitter memories of what it meant for them.

Ireland's experience of the EU has been immensely positive. It will remain so if we have the confidence, the self-belief and the capacity to seize our opportunities and to help shape those opportunities. The European constitution does not ensure that the Union will continue to thrive and to serve all its people's interests any more than our own Constitution determines our success as a nation. However, it establishes a clear and enduring foundation for a successful future together.

I welcome the Minister to the House. We have had him here before debating the broader issues of European Union policy, especially the constitution. We recognise the key role he has played in it and I congratulate him for it. I also welcome our colleagues from the European Parliament, some of whom have served here previously. Regardless of their political opinion, they will all have a key role in informing Irish public opinion over the course of the next few months. To have the MEPs here to engage with us and, through us with the broader public, is an excellent idea. It is part of the new thinking that we must use over the next few months if we are to ensure that the Irish people engage in the debate and take part in the referendum. Regardless of the outcome, it would be most unsatisfactory if there is a low turn-out for the referendum. Our aim must be to ensure that the public engages in the politics of Europe and the referendum.

When the Nice Treaty referendum was defeated a few years ago, we all had to take note of what the public was saying. We were all accused of taking the public for granted and that was probably a reasonable charge. This morning, I would like to ask the public if it is taking Europe for granted. Have we taken for granted the most successful political project in the world since the foundation of the United States of America in 1776? Are we taking for granted the peace which Europe has brought to this part of the world? Are taking for granted the economic, political and social progress that we have enjoyed since we joined the EEC in 1973? We must ask the Irish people to recognise that we would not be where we are today without the support of Europe and without our work at European level.

The Minister referred briefly to last week's 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. Last week the Taoiseach and other Prime Ministers of Europe commemorated the fact that 60 years ago the people of Europe looked forward to a new dawn. We should not forget that the First World War ended 87 years ago, which was meant to be the war to end all wars. In 1918, the people of Europe felt that there was a new way forward and that peace and prosperity was the way of the future. Unfortunately, there was no political and social progress in the 1920s and 1930s and no attempt made to bring Europe together. Europe fell apart 20 years later and Europeans spilt their own blood. The great success story of the European project arose from the aftermath of the Second World War. The great political leaders of Europe, such as Adenauer and Schumann, came together and decided that they would put a European political project in place. It has led to where we are today. Western Europe was the first to develop and with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Soviet empire, that chance to develop and to prosper has now spread to eastern Europe.

Those of us who have served on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs over the past 12 to 18 months have all admired the enthusiasm of the delegations we received from the countries of eastern Europe. We all know how the formerly downtrodden peoples of eastern Europe would like the Irish people to vote. That is the ultimate prize for us all, to build a Europe of people, nations and social, economic and political progress.

It is important that we all use the next few weeks and months to spread the message of the European project. The Minister did not refer to recent surveys concerning attitudes in Ireland to the EU and to the constitution. It is extremely worrying to note that 45% of Irish people have apparently never heard of the constitution, despite the fact that so much of its finalisation occurred during the Irish Presidency of the EU. Ireland is ranked 22nd of 25 member states in its knowledge of Europe and the constitution. Our first challenge is to ensure that the people know what the project is about. It would be helpful if the political parties can reach political agreement informally over the next few weeks so that the referendum Bill can be published in advance of the summer recess thereby giving us the opportunity to debate and finalise the referendum legislation.

The work of the Referendum Commission will be crucial, but we should try to reflect on how the it does its business. The important thing is to ensure that every citizen has a reasonable knowledge of what the referendum will be about. I have grave doubts about the type of Referendum Commission practise that existed heretofore, where advertisements were placed in newspapers giving the "Yes" and "No" arguments. The electorate read very little of this. The Minister should ensure that the commission works in a way to encourage people to vote.

I thank the Minister for listening, but six minutes gives little opportunity to say anything worthwhile. I look forward to much greater debate over the next few weeks and months because this is a matter of absolute importance to the Irish people. We would not be what we are today without support from Europe.

I welcome the Minister here today and I acknowledge the work that he put into the preparation of this constitutional treaty. I also thank the MEPs for their attendance in the House. It says something about the process of Seanad reform. Many years ago, we felt that it was important that we have links with the European Parliament to enable both sides to reach out to citizens. This is a golden opportunity to begin discussion on the ratification of the constitutional treaty. I also congratulate the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Treacy, who is in Galway today leading a discussion on the treaty.

It is important to pay tribute to the excellent work done on the constitution by the Irish Presidency. The Taoiseach deserves particular praise for the manner in which he conducted himself during the Presidency and for his work in moulding this document.

We must now consider how to prepare for the referendum and I will raise some points which may serve to stimulate the debate. The constitution is good for Ireland and for Europe. It was debated in an open, transparent and inclusive manner and sets out a blueprint and framework to enable the EU to develop into the future in a fair and efficient way. It expresses the Union's core values of respect for human dignity, democracy and human rights.

Another important aspect of the constitution is that it enhances the powers of member states through the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. This means that if we are unhappy with any proposals from the EU we can produce a yellow card. This is a significant development. I hope all the scrutiny and debate that is taking place in respect of the constitution means citizens will understand that no decision can be made that is not acceptable in Ireland. One of the most important elements of the constitution is simplification in that it brings together all the other texts and treaties that have accumulated since the inception of the Union into one constitutional treaty. This will allow for a clearer interpretation of the rules and regulations of the EU.

The key areas of concern to Ireland at the outset of the negotiations were tax, justice, defence and EU institutions in general. In regard to defence, the treaty's provisions make clear that Ireland will not be part of any common defence commitment. We will make our own decision whether to assist any member state in the event of an armed attack. Ireland will maintain its traditional policy of neutrality and that will be fully respected. There will be no EU army, no conscription and no military alliance. There is nothing in the constitution that threatens Ireland's long-held policy of military neutrality.

Several misguided notions prevail in regard to the development of the EU. One argument still being trotted out is that the constitution will end Ireland's neutrality, turn the EU into a superpower and undermine national parliaments and their citizens. According to another school of thought, the European project is moving in a direction that is too liberal, the treaty is too Americanised and the welfare states, public services and trade union strength are increasingly at risk.

There are undoubtedly concerns that our national and cultural identity may be eroded by closer integration at EU level. Most of all, there is concern about the level of knowledge that citizens have about the EU and the impact this may have on attitudes and political behaviour. Notwithstanding the generally positive attitude of citizens towards the EU, a lack of knowledge means a lack of interest. We need only refer to the first referendum on the Nice treaty for evidence of this. The lesson from that experience is that we must communicate and engage with citizens and mobilise them to support the treaty. The more people know about it, the more likely they are to support it. We must ensure citizens are informed through a vigorous public debate on television and radio.

I compliment the National Forum on Europe for its excellent work under the chairmanship of Senator Maurice Hayes who is undertaking a nationwide series of information seminars. We cannot allow an information vacuum to develop because others will seek to exploit the holes in public awareness that arise from such a vacuum. National parliaments must work with the European Parliament to promote the treaty. I hope we can succeed in reaching out to citizens over the coming months so they can make an informed decision and ensure a successful referendum.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Roche, for finally circulating his script. Following his departure, will another Minister now take his place for the debate?

No. The arrangements, as agreed by the party leaders and the Independent spokesperson, is that the Minister, Deputy Roche, should be present for the beginning of the debate and that another Minister should attend at the close. The main purpose of today's debate is to facilitate a discussion between Members and MEPs.

It is a pity a Minister will not be present but there is nothing to be done if this was agreed by the Whips. It serves to devalue the debate that there is no Government representative to listen to Members' contributions. This experiment, which has so far been useful, is treated with a certain amount of disdain if it is not attended by a Minister. For all such discussions in future, we should insist that the relevant Minister remains in the House for the duration of the debate.

The Minister made an interesting contribution on this matter. By definition, the benefits of the European Union are historical. For Ireland, membership has undoubtedly been tremendously beneficial and useful. Senator Bradford movingly and pointedly observed that the great but unproveable benefit of the EU is that we have had few conflicts of any nature since its formation. The evidence suggests that the efforts to make a political union have been extremely successful. There are occasional difficulties but those conflicts that have arisen have been resolved not by force of arms but by democratic and political means. This is a major and almost unanswerable argument for the benefits of the Union in the past.

I spent the weekend before last in Berlin where the 60th anniversary VE Day was being celebrated. This was an interesting experience because in Moscow, London, Paris and many other places throughout Europe, citizens were comfortable in celebrating this occasion. However, it was difficult for the Germans to celebrate their own defeat and the awful historical footprints of which they are to some extent ashamed. The celebrations in Berlin were undertaken in a reasonably dignified manner. They focussed primarily on citizens' awareness of their status as good Europeans and a recognition of their participation in a great European movement which has allowed them to put the war behind them to some extent. In addition, in a move of detached contrition and in a moving ceremony, Berlin opened a Holocaust memorial. Moreover, the city also had a day for democracy, the celebration of which took place over two days. In Europe, one can always have two bank holidays even though other countries seem to require only one.

That is socialism.

The celebrations in Berlin indicate that Europe has politically healed the wounds of the Second World War. I suspect this has much to do with the EU and the political closeness that has developed between the countries of Europe. I agree with everything that has been said on this unquestionable benefit.

I was disappointed that the Minister, in his speech, never touched upon the issue of the European economy, which is an awkward underbelly for those who are unapologetically pro-European. It is easy to be emotionally pro-European for the reasons I outlined. However, it is difficult to be honest about the reasons for the sluggishness of the European economy. I do not know the answer. It must be possible to ask whether the European Union is a factor in this.

Senator White's comment is fair but this remains a valid question. The world's two great economies, Europe and the United States, are moving at different speeds. We must ask whether the great European expressions which Senator Ormonde discussed and to which we pay tribute, such as proportionality and subsidiarity, are in some way stifling the European economy or whether the ideal of a social economy may somehow suppress European development and growth. This issue has not been addressed in this House. We must then ask how Ireland benefits economically. Ireland apparently benefited from both the European and the US economies. We benefit greatly from the European economy due, I suppose, to low interest rates. This country has boomed for the past seven or eight years, partially because low interest rates have allowed people to borrow large sums of money.

It is called social partnership.

A housing boom continues. That is one of the reasons. At the same time, we have been riding the American boom. The Americans have a disdain for social partnership. Multinationals have been the engine of the growth for the economy.

What will this constitution do for Ireland? I see what the European Union has done for Ireland in the past. It has been fantastic and a net payer to us. In the past, we have been enthusiastic Europeans because we received money from the arrangement. The moment we saw that the money was disappearing, we voted against the Nice treaty. If this constitution is to be passed, a hard rather than soft sell is needed from the Minister. He said there is no need to be frightened because the changes will not be significant. This is a soft sell which asks that people vote yes because they will not be injured by so doing. We need to know the positive elements for us or we will enter a vacuum of a campaign which may end in defeat because those who are negative will raise the same taboos as before. The Minister's speech betrayed a lack of conviction about the specific benefits for Ireland, while making a good historical case for past benefits.

If we have learned anything from our European colleagues, it is to speak to an issue within six minutes. The Members of this House are not proficient at doing so. I welcome our visitors and I am particularly pleased to see former Members of this House.

I join the Minister in congratulating the Irish people who made an input into the constitution, including Mr. John Bruton, who was a member of the praesidium. The constitution brings together a series of earlier documents. It was extremely difficult, when campaigning on matters such as Maastricht or Amsterdam, to be required to refer constantly to earlier treaties. A roadmap was needed. These matters are now codified in one document. The attachment of the charter of fundamental rights is welcome and will allay concerns on social aspects of the treaty. Broader human rights and social aspects are cemented into the charter. I am glad that a White Paper will be published in June. This will result in wider debate.

We need to nail several issues. There is a belief that the treaty involves creeping federalism and will create a federal state. The characteristics of a federal state are not present. Even if the EU was minded to introduce such a state, I do not know how a federal state could survive on 1% of GNP. I do not see any threat from a potential federal state.

It was a matter of satisfaction that the COSAC meeting in Luxembourg urged national parliaments to spend a week in consideration of the work programme of the Commission and in examination of the annual legislative programme. This was echoed at the recent Speakers' conference in Budapest where the Ceann Comhairle was instrumental in having the same approach adopted. It is welcome that this was incorporated into the conclusion of the COSAC meeting. I hope that further meetings of this nature will ensue. All the delegations were impressed that the Seanad is holding this debate.

We must ask the purpose of a constitution. Our experience is that a constitution limits power and the executive is not given unfettered powers. A constitution proclaims and defends the rights of citizens. Regardless of the left or right wing nature of an administration, it is restricted by a constitution.

The EU constitution is needed to bring coherence and clarity to former treaties. It was difficult for citizens to approach the earlier treaties. The proposed constitution makes it easier to understand the EU. It will not provide for a Union capable of transforming our administration into a liberal or conservative form. That is a matter for national governments and arises from interactions between people and their administrations, among other factors. The constitution confirms the status quo, which is that the EU is only allowed to legislate in those areas where it has been given competence to do so. We pooled our sovereignty in some but not all areas. This is an important issue because confusion existed at the recent hearings of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution. It was assumed, in matters such as Senator Norris’s Civil Partnership Bill, that the EU would instruct us on what to do.

Not by me.

Some of those who attended the committee's meetings were under the impression that the EU's influence was all-pervasive and would dictate all areas of life. It will do so only in areas in which competence has been vested. The decision to vest competence was in order to create the edifice of peace which Schuman, Spaak, Monet and others realised was needed on the European mainland after the cataclysm of the Second World War. Our domestic experience demonstrates that it is incorrect to claim that continuous peace has existed in Europe. However, it is an enduring legacy that global conflicts based on nationalism have been avoided. The EU has brought us more than economic benefit. It has influenced our national self-confidence and our relationship with our nearest neighbour. Those of us educated in the 1960s remember that our horizons were totally limited by our nearest neighbour. We never looked beyond it to any other model. Our Parliament is based on the Westminster model. We never looked to any other models. The European Union has given us significant national self-confidence and has transformed Irish life. The economic miracle has been part of it and, in some respects, a by-product of it. We have done much ourselves but the European Union has utterly transformed Irish life for the better.

The constitution will put a restriction on the Union in terms of how it encroaches on the rights of member states, other than in those areas where we have given the competence. The qualified majority aspect is important but there must be unanimity in regard to defence, taxation and foreign policy. In regard to defence, it is important to say nothing can happen unless we so decide. If there is to be an EU army and a common defence policy, we must sign up. It must be unanimously agreed. If it is not unanimously agreed, it cannot happen and we cannot be forced into it. In any event, NATO is still the pillar to which most of the states will look in terms of the common defence aspect.

In regard to the Presidency, getting rid of the six-month term and having a two and a half year one is useful in terms of continuity. There is the issue of the double hatting and the Foreign Minister. Somebody asked who they should telephone when a foreign policy issue arises. I have dealt with the defence aspect. There is also the issue of Commission reform which, when slimmed down, will make it better. The larger states have lost out in that they had two Commissioners. In regard to parliamentary reform, we have shown today we can adjust and be liberal. It is good to have our MEPs here and I look forward to hearing what they have to say.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

Tá áthas orm a bheith anseo aríst, ag caint faoi Bhunreacht na hEorpa. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go bhfuil an Seanad ag filleadh ar an cheist seo. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil daoine áirithe taobh amuigh den Teach seo ag iarraidh an obair a dhein na Feisirí Parlaiminte sa choinbhinsiún a bhréagnú agus a mhaslú. Ní ghlacaim leis sin ar chor ar bith. Ghlac gach éinne den 200 Feisire lán-pháirt sna díospóireachtaí agus na comhréiteacha polaitiúla a cuireadh i gcrích.

The European Convention was made up of approximately 200 democratically-elected politicians from around Europe and from all political persuasions. Indeed, it included representatives of the social partners, the Commission, 28 governments and the European ombudsman. It reached a broad consensus which governments largely accepted and signed off on 12 months later. Decisions were not made by voting but by reaching a broad consensus through a process of exhaustive and, in many cases, exhausting discussion and negotiation in plenary sessions, in working groups and within each of the political families that participated in the Convention. The size of the Convention and the broadness of the consensus can be gauged by the fact that a Eurosceptical alternative document was signed by a mere eight participants out of over 200 who participated, one of whom, unfortunately, happened to be an Irishman.

It is also important to bear in mind that what we have in this text is the consolidated text of five or six treaties. This text runs to 500 pages, half of which consist of protocols and declarations. The actual constitutional text is approximately half of that. What we have is a consolidation of existing treaties. Some 95% of that text is the existing treaty, so what we are asking the people of Ireland and of Europe to agree to is 5% of that text.

The new element of that document is approximately 5% and it includes stating the values and the objectives of the Union, incorporating rights for the citizens of Europe, making various institutional changes to improve the effectiveness of how we make decisions, improving the democratic legitimacy of the decisions we make by giving a greater role to national parliaments and the European Parliament, and obliging the Ministers we send to Councils to meet openly and to discuss openly when making legislation.

We in the Convention addressed all the questions the Laaken declaration obliged us to address, including the question as to whether powers which the European Union currently exercises should be dropped and left to the member states to implement. The Convention decided that was not a good thing to do but it also decided no new powers should be given to the European Union. Consequently, the constitutional text does not include new powers for the European Union to exercise exclusively. It places new responsibilities on the Union, on its various institutions, on the national parliaments, including the Oireachtas, and on the European Parliament by doubling the number of areas in which it must make legislation in co-decision with the Council. It also places new responsibilities on the Commission and, indeed, on the Council, as I indicated.

We also believed efficiency was not good enough on its own and that if it was not accompanied by transparency and democratic accountability, it would not achieve the legitimacy with the citizens which is clearly needed. We consequently incorporated a whole range of innovations for a unique transnational organisation of sovereign states. A whole section of the constitution deals with the democratic life of the Union. No other organisation, including the WTO, the UN, the IMF, the World Bank or the Council of Europe, has a directly-elected parliament which shares the making of laws which apply to the entire Union and which oblige and give power to the national parliaments to challenge legally if they so choose. No other treaty provides, as a right, for the direct consultation of civil society organisations, including religious and non-religious organisations. Subsidiarity is now legally binding on all EU institutions.

This constitutional treaty is a significant step forward in the democratic accountability of its decision making and of the quality of its choices and in the recognition that neither man nor woman lives by bread alone. This document is a coming of age for Europe. It is not a cause for anxiety or fear as some seek to pretend for narrow electoral advantage. It is a cause for hope and optimism. It gives us a framework in which to pursue democratically our respective objectives within the context of Europe's unique social model.

We live in a world which is globalising everything except justice and democracy. In this constitution we seek to reverse that trend. It is not a perfect document. There are things in it I do not like and things not in it I would have liked. However, it is an honest compromise between different firmly held political convictions and it is a framework for me, as a person of the left, to argue and promote my politics and for those of the right to argue theirs and to seek through democratic mandate to pursue their politics.

In his book, The Age of Consent, George Monbiot said:

Everything has been globalised except our consent. Democracy alone has been confined to the nation state. It stands at the national border, suitcase in hand, without a passport.

I believe this constitution provides a passport for European democracy.

Cuirim fáilte roimh bhaill Pharlaimint na hEorpa. Senator Ormonde was kind enough to refer to my chairmanship of the National Forum on Europe. That imposes its own obligation on me to protect the integrity and independence of the forum. I will, therefore, deal with structural matters. This is an extremely important occasion. It is an important development in the linkage between the European Parliament and the Oireachtas. I hope it could be important for the MEPs in providing them with a locus in which they could report on developments in Europe. It is extremely valuable and enriching for this House to get a feeling for what is happening in Europe. I hope we will have some feedback after today's session so we can develop a method whereby we do not simply talk at each other, but have a real interchange. Unlike Senator Ross, I do not see the necessity for a Minister to be present, as it changes the dynamic. Exchanges take place across the Chamber and while a Minister can often have an input or give his or her information on policy, the real exchange should be between the two groups of parliamentarians.

I like to think that the forum provided a similar service to Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, and his colleagues when they were participating in the Convention. It gave them a place in Ireland to which they could return to tell the people of developments and receive reactions to what was being proposed or not proposed from a fairly representative group of people including all the parties as well as civil society.

I am glad the Minister stated that the Referendum Commission was to be established fairly quickly and undertook to ensure that it was properly funded to carry out its necessary task. The commission and anyone who examined its work agrees that the more time it gets to do its task before a referendum, the better.

I was prepared to offer the Minister a prize for the understatement of the year when he noted that the European draft constitution would not win any prizes for prose style. It certainly would not and its authors took, I believe, some 480 pages, to do what Jefferson achieved in a very small number of sentences. This is one of the problems people have when projecting a vision of Europe. It is happening currently in France. It is so diffuse that people cannot get a grip on it. It is necessary for all the parliamentarians here to help convey to people the message that they have a stake in Europe and should be interested in how it is governed and run.

In this sense, whether it is governed by this constitution or some variant is immaterial. There is a real difficulty in making that connection and my concern in a referendum is not whether people voted "Yes" or "No" to the proposition put before them but whether they vote at all. A general turning away from politics as such has occurred, particularly among young people. The challenge is to encourage people to turn out in a referendum. Another challenge is to always ensure they are reasonably informed before they do so. They should be helped with information to make up their own minds on the issue.

People are interested. For example, we had two meetings of the forum last week. One was in Roscommon, which Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, the Minister and Deputy Gormley attended. Another took place two weeks earlier in Gweedore, in which Séan Ó Neachtain, MEP, Deputy Ó Snodaigh and Alan Dukes were engaged. People were willing to be engaged and there was a thirst for information. This is the challenge for us all. Today however, laying the foundation for what I hope will be a long-term relationship between the Members of the European Parliament from Ireland and this House is more important than the actual debate on the constitution.

Mr. Mitchell, MEP

I thank the House for this invitation. It is a privilege to be here today. The constitutional document contains four parts. Part I deals with the provisions which define the Union. Significantly, Part II deals with the charter of fundamental rights while Part IV contains the final clauses, which deal with procedures for adopting and revising the constitution. Part III contains something like 321 articles, or approximately three quarters of the total and deals with the policies and operation of the Union. In the main, it reproduces articles from previous treaties which set out the provisions governing the Union's policies in a re-numbered and more logical format. This part includes policies like the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital as well as the common agricultural and fisheries policies and other issues of that nature. We arrived at this point through a unique process.

The biggest group in the Convention, some 55 of the 105 main members, were also members of national parliaments. I was Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs and we met members of our delegation before they went out and after they returned. The process involved both Government and Parliament and never before has such an effort been made to include people.

Senator Ross asked what this will do for Ireland. Some 60 million people died in the first half of the last century and the Union has grown to include 25 member states. The constitution does for Ireland what it does for the other 24 member states. It helps us to continue providing the prerequisite for prosperity, namely, the stability and peaceful evolution of Europe. It does this and no more. If we forget that the primary objective of the European Union is to keep peace and stability in Europe, we will have lost our way. The constitution sets down the rules agreed by the 25 member states as to how that will be achieved, to be ratified by their parliaments or public.

In the few minutes available to me, I will state something with which not everyone in this House or the Dáil will agree. It is time we stopped eulogising Irish neutrality. I can only find two definitions for it, but thankfully people like Patrick Keating have written extensively about the issue. The first was set down by Seán MacBride in 1949 when, as Minister for External Affairs, he stated that we would become full charter members of NATO the day after partition ends. The second definition by the then Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, pledged that Ireland would take on common defence responsibilities when our GDP exceeded 80% of the European Union average. Although I am unsure what the present incumbent has stated on the issue, every other Taoiseach since Seán Lemass has stated that if common defence becomes a requirement of our membership of the European Union, we would take it on.

It is not a requirement under this treaty, but we should seek to make it so. We are losing a golden opportunity to shape the common defence of Europe in a way that best suits our interests. If memory serves, Article III-41 sets out the defence commitment and Protocol 24 also deals with it. Unlike the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam or Nice, these articles do not state that there may be a common defence, they state there will be a common defence and that those members who wish to join can do so. That will not include Ireland, because the Seville declaration excludes us and the second Nice treaty amendment specifically excludes a common defence without a referendum here.

We can join a common defence policy with the inclusion of appropriate wording in the Bill to be announced by the Minister. We should do so now. We should empower the Dáil — this matter falls to the Dáil rather than to the Oireachtas — to join a common defence policy if the circumstances are right for Ireland.

What should those circumstances be? For years we kept our heads down and told people what they wanted to hear. If we avoid doing so now and negotiate, we could negotiate a protocol which allows the four neutral states to opt in on a case-by-case basis. The Dáil has the right to declare war. Why should it not have the right to declare, on a case-by-case basis, that we will participate in the defence of Europe? What is wrong with us as a people that we cannot debate this issue in either House of the Oireachtas or in public?

We never have a proper debate on this issue. It is assumed that we all have the same opinion and that we are required to eulogise neutrality. We are missing a golden opportunity to join a common EU defence and provide for the security of our children into the future by playing party politics and putting our own selfish interests first. This course of action is wrong and is something about which we, as parliamentarians, should be concerned.

Mr. Crowley, MEP

I am glad to inform the House that I am still called Senator Crowley in the United States.

He should not join the committee investigating George Galloway.

I am sure Mr. Crowley does not disabuse them.

Mr. Crowley, MEP

It is always a useful sine qua non to have. I thank the Leader of the House, the House and the Cathaoirleach for inviting us here today. It is a reflection of this House’s initiative that it has been the first such institution to give MEPs the opportunity to attend and discuss ongoing work in the EU because of its direct impact in Ireland. It is always difficult to know what area to cover when one is discussing a constitution because they have all been touched on or dealt with.

I would like to begin in reverse order. I did not plan on mentioning it but in light of the fact that my esteemed colleague, Gay Mitchell, MEP, raised the issue with regard to defence and the changes that should made, I will address it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of being part of a common defence policy, alliance or union, that decision is the sole preserve of the Irish people.

Hear, hear.

Mr. Crowley, MEP

This decision should not be confused with issues surrounding the debate on the European constitution. There is sufficient confusion and scaremongering fostered by those opposed to the constitution regarding what it will achieve. Despite the fact that the same arguments were used since the early 1970s by opponents of Ireland's entry into the EEC and at every referendum since then, opponents of the constitution claim that the arguments have validity, even though they have been disproved over that 35-year period. While I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue raised by Mr. Mitchell, MEP, it is important to remember that it is a debate for another day.

The treaty that we are now discussing cannot be renegotiated or altered despite what we may do in a Bill in the Oireachtas. The treaty clearly sets down that the position of Ireland's neutrality and the conditions attached to the civil declaration will not be changed. One of the issues that we could look at and discuss sometime in the future is the kind of arrangements in which we may wish to be involved. However, it is not an issue that is relevant to the debate on the European constitution.

Turning to an issue the Minister and Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, touched upon earlier, the EU is a unique institution; there is nothing else like it in the world. It does not always run properly and efficiently but what it has done, as Senator Bradford said earlier, is stay true to its founding ideals. It has maintained peace within its core remit area, ensured economic development and co-operation within its core operating area and allowed for prosperity to develop. There are many more things it could do better or more quickly. However, if one looks at a number of areas that affect Ireland and allow for an expansion of opportunities for the Irish people, such as social development, environmental laws and rules and regulations, the EU has been a success.

Senator Ross asked about the benefits to Ireland of ratifying the European constitution. I recall that during the debate on the Maastricht treaty I was berated by the Senator for saying that the treaty would provide an additional £12.5 billion in Structural and Cohesion funds. He said that I should have focused on the text of the treaty rather than on the benefits to Ireland. That is the difficulty with this treaty for those of us who are in favour of it. It contains nothing that we can point out as the big idea, such as a single currency, opening up the market for goods, services and capital or creating new EU institutions. It is a more technical and ordered treaty.

One of the greatest difficulties that we face, as pointed out by my good friend and colleague Senator Maurice Hayes, is invigorating people and getting them to participate. How do we ensure that people feel a sense of ownership or abhorrence on the issues? Both sides of the debate must be heard in order to get people involved. We are now dealing with a generation of people with no knowledge of what life was like just after the Second World War, while a large percentage of the population has no knowledge of what life was like before the end of the Cold War. They do not understand the sense of risk which motivated the founding fathers of the then EEC.

However, that risk still exists because despite the strength that we think we possess, the foundations on which the EU are built are very shaky and depend on each one of us understanding our interdependence to ensure that the gifts we have received from our membership of the EU over the past 30 years will continue to come to Ireland but can also be spread to those new countries that have joined the EU and those that are anxious to join.

Speaking on the treaty, the former Chief Rabbi of Great Britain, Jonathan Sacks, said, "This treaty does give dignity to the difference that exists within the European Union and the wider European continent." That is a good place for Ireland to be, at the heart of it. It is an island by geographic circumstances but its heart and soul and the driving force for its future development remain at the very centre of Europe and decision making in Europe.

Ms Harkin, MEP

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Seanad Éireann. I have spoken on a number of occasions in the Lower House but I am particularly pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the Upper House. I thank the Leader of the Seanad, Senator O'Rourke, for giving this time to debate the proposed European constitution because over the next six to 12 months — whatever length of time we have — there will be many discussions, debates and seminars on the constitution. I believe this is critical because it is part of the process of informing people about the constitution and how it will affect them.

In this context, I will repeat what I said in the European Parliament and elsewhere. A copy of the constitution should be sent to every household. I accept that it is a large document and that making copies of it will be expensive, but making it available to all is a worthwhile exercise. Not everyone will read it; some people will dip in and out of it. They might read a section in which they have an interest or because their interest has been piqued by a debate on television or an argument in the pub. They will check to see if what they have been told about the constitution is true or false.

Sending a copy of the constitution to every household makes a statement to citizens that it is of sufficient importance for the Government to spend money on it so that people can be informed. There are other documents that inform people, such as the publication on the draft constitution, prepared by the European Convention, entitled Presentation to Citizens, A Constitution for Europe. Another example is the document entitled A Summary of the European Constitution. These are very worthwhile and useful but the text of the constitution should still be made available to every household.

It might also be useful to include an insert that explains Article 29.4.10° of the Irish Constitution in all documentation sent to citizens. This article sets out clearly the relationship between our Constitution and all European legislation and the proposed European constitution. It is worthwhile quoting Article 29.4.10°:

No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State which are necessitated by the obligations of membership of the European Union or of the Communities, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the European Union or by the Communities or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the Treaties establishing the Communities, from having the force of law in the State.

In other words, European legislation, where it has been agreed by all member states, has primacy and becomes our legislation, indeed it is already our legislation. Our Constitution already states that because we agreed to it in a referendum.

There are many people who suggest that this new constitution will somehow change things, that it will now have primacy over our Constitution. However, that is already the case but only where we have given that competence and authority to the EU. As Senator Dardis said earlier, the status quo remains. I must confess to being particularly anxious about this point. I have spoken with many people recently and they are of the opinion that if we ratify this new constitution, it will mean a whole new scenario where our Constitution is redundant. This is simply untrue yet the message is being pumped out again and again by those who oppose the constitution.

I reluctantly interrupt the MEP. In accordance with the Order of Business, the House must adjourn at 1 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.

Ms Doyle, MEP

Ms Harkin, MEP, should be allowed to continue.

She is in possession of the floor and will have three minutes remaining when we return.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Ms Harkin, MEP

I was speaking before the break about the issue of the new constitution for Europe having primacy over the Irish Constitution. I have already made the point that when we give authority or competence to the EU, or where we have given it, EU law has primacy. However, where we have not given authority to the EU to make laws, then Irish law has primacy. This is how it has been since we joined the EU. This new constitution will not change that situation.

Some people might ask whether we really need a constitution. We have all the treaties, the EU is working well, so why do we need a constitution? In a sense, "If it ain't broke, why do we need to fix it"? This is a legitimate point of view but there is a very cogent counter argument to it. This was expressed by the European Parliament when it voted by a significant majority to accept a report on the new constitution which reads as follows:

The European Parliament states that Europe must not rest on its laurels. It must deal with the new challenges facing it at the start of the 21st century, that is, the Union's role in international politics, globalisation, enlargement, the euro, internal and external security of our continent, terrorism, migratory flows, education, technological progress, racism, xenophobia or social exclusion.

In other words, the European Parliament is saying, and I agree with it, that we need this new constitution to cope with the new challenges facing Europe.

One of the most important reasons for this new constitution is that it defines clearly the actions the EU can take. It also lays down the values and principles which guide those actions. This is what a constitution should do, namely, lay down the conditions governing and the limits to the exercise of power in the context of a political entity while at the same time safeguarding citizens' rights.

Many specific issues have been discussed here today and more will be discussed this afternoon. I would like to refer briefly to two issues. Many will argue that endowing the Union with a constitution is a first step, or even a further step, towards the creation of a centralised European super state. However, I would argue precisely the opposite. First, a formal constitution offers member states and their citizens formal and legislative safeguards against Community action going too far. Second, if we ratify the constitution for Europe, then, for the first time ever, there will be an exit strategy for any country that wishes to leave the Union. This new constitution introduces the possibility of voluntary withdrawal from the EU. If a member state so wishes, it can negotiate agreements for its withdrawal and outline the relationship between the member state and the EU. Therefore, those who say that we will be locked into this mythical super state are simply not telling the truth. If at any time Dáil Éireann decides that we wish to withdraw from the Union, that option will be available.

I wish to repeat the welcome we gave earlier to MEPs who have taken the time to come here today. I was interested to learn that two minutes is the speaking slot in Europe, so three times that is very good here in the Seanad. As I am fascinated by the debate, I intend to stay until the end. I am learning more about the constitution than I thought. I already have fertile ground for debate among my constituents, including for meetings and so on. So many interesting comments have been made.

One's belief in the constitution should be founded on passion about the idea of Europe. If one does not have that passion and philosophical belief in what Europe offers its citizens and member states, it is very difficult to become bureaucratic and deal with what appears a dull leaden book or debate, because it is not founded perhaps on the political passion of what has happened.

After the catastrophe of the Second World War the founding fathers of the European Union determined that there would never again be within their region that type of all-out war which led to such destruction. Sixty years later that determination persists. In recent months we have seen many pictures and re-enactments of that period on television, particularly on the anniversary of VE Day. Ireland was not involved but it is important to see what people went through and how quickly they re-built their countries after the war with a determination not to allow such destruction in Europe again.

We may not all believe in a united Europe and it is good that there are differing points of view. I do not get into a hissy fit because other people or parties may have different points of view. They are entitled to that view. It would be too bad if in this Chamber we did not allow the expression of differing points of view. I look forward to hearing them, as long as they are honest.

Previous speakers made many interesting points. I rather liked the point made by Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, that only 5% of the document is new and therefore to be absorbed anew. The balance of this large tome is based on the treaties of Rome, Amsterdam, Maastricht and Nice. It is realistic to expect us to grasp 5% of the document.

Senator Ross mentioned our economic miracle and asked why the rest of Europe is faltering economically when Ireland is not. A measure of our success may be based on social partnership which has been of great benefit and allowed Ireland to continue to develop. Social partnership is very close to the ideals of the European Union. By 2007 social partnership will have existed for 20 years.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, mentioned a coming of age and said that 45 years is like a passport. Armed with this passport and a "Yes" vote in the referendum on the European constitution, we will be truly citizens of Europe and entitled to be wherever we want to be.

Brian Crowley and Gay Mitchell spoke about the size of the constitution and Mr. Mitchell proposed his interesting ideas. Mr. Crowley said that to bring the common defence policy into play in the early stages of the debate on the constitution somewhat muddies the waters. That debate can be postponed and everyone can voice their opinions later.

My overriding concern is that there is a division in a large country such as France where even the might of President Chirac and the French Parliament find it difficult to sway the voters towards the "Yes" vote. The Government in the Netherlands is having similar difficulty in advance of its referendum which will follow the French one. People are right to have their doubts but if all the facts are in the open and there is an open and honest debate there is no place for fear.

The constitution was drawn up in an open and transparent way involving 200 public representatives from all the member states, as well as some bureaucrats and the Presidium. It is a miracle that a manageable solution was found, and we hope a similar miracle will happen and the constitution will be accepted.

I am extremely worried that despite the good will here regarding anything European, the diffuse nature of the debate makes it easy for people to say they cannot and will not understand the constitution and dismiss it. I accept the point made by Ms Harkin, MEP, that every house should receive a copy of the constitution. They should also receive a copy of our own Constitution because Article 29.4 gives the lie to any talk about the European constitution obviating our Constitution.

It is interesting for those of us listening to the Members of the European Parliament here today to learn how in some cases there is cross-party agreement on this matter. I denigrate nobody who holds a different opinion. How else could we manage a debate if we do not hear and deal with differing opinions?

I thank all the Members of the European Parliament for coming here today.

Is stairiúil an ócáid í seo, agus ní hé ó thaobh an tSeanaid de ach ó thaobh an cheangail idir an tír seo agus an Aontais Eorpaigh de agus an teacht le chéile atá tar éis tarlúint le 60 bliain anuas ó 1944.

I voted against our joining the European Community in 1972.

There is honesty.

I was wrong.

There is more honesty.

I was wrong for a reason that was not a part of the debate, not because of economic issues but because of the cultural transformation of the country. This is evident in our sense of self-confidence and particularly our liberation from the neighbouring island. Our world view has expanded through the involvement of our public service and politicians in the European project. Nobody can dispute the values and principles that underlie this famous project.

The most important of those values has been extraordinarily successful. Senator Maurice Hayes is probably the only person in this House who recalls what the world was like during the Second World War. I was recently in Africa, and the Africans, who are tiring of the Western world lecturing them about bloodshed, are quick to remind us of the scale of slaughter on a continent which sometimes strikes poses about its sense of superior civilisation. By comparison the scale of the slaughter in their countries was quite small, given their extra problems. The end of war between European countries is a significant achievement. War between France and Germany or between Great Britain and Germany is unthinkable now. That is a great achievement and it did not happen by accident.

There are other areas, however, in which Europe has not lived up to its own ambitions. For example, I am unhappy about the economic values written into the Maastricht Treaty. They were profoundly liberal and to a degree inserted into the constitution a view of how the countries and the world should be organised which was characteristic of Thatcherism. Some of the strictures about stability are excessive, unnecessary and could well harm the European project.

I have no problem with the expressed aspirations of the common foreign and security policy but I have problems with the way those aspirations are used. The high representative for the common foreign and security policy is extraordinarily determined to be secretive. If we are an open, democratic and accountable set of institutions at home and within the European project, there is no need for secrecy particularly in an institution which has no army, or covert operations abroad. This obsessive secrecy is worthy of serious consideration.

I am profoundly unhappy with the involvement of the European Union in the Intel issue because it appears to be rigidity gone mad. If we were diverting investment to Ireland——

The Senator has one minute remaining.

According to myself I have two minutes.

The Senator has only one now.

You are the Cathaoirleach and on all things you are right. I am genuinely concerned about what I believe to be a movement which is operating on two sides of the political spectrum, in China and the United States, which is the decoupling of the market economy from democracy. There is an extraordinary experiment taking place in China in which it is developing a market economy within a non-democratic state. There is a degree to which the United States is also decoupling the concept of a free market from a properly functioning democracy. Europe should be the rallying point for the belief that a social market economy is successful, flexible and competitive within a genuinely functioning and operating democracy. The constitution is an albeit ambiguous, uncertain and unclear step in that direction.

All arguments about national sovereignty are subordinated to the fact that we still have popular sovereignty which means, as Deputy Harkin, MEP, said that if we do not like it, if it is so wrong or repressive, we can always leave. So long as we can leave we will still have popular sovereignty. While national sovereignty in terms of economics is history, we still have popular sovereignty. If conditions in the EU become so awful we can withdraw from it, but we will not need to and we should, therefore, vote "Yes" to this constitution.

Mr. Eoin Ryan, MEP

I thank Senators and the Leader, Senator O'Rourke, in particular, for the invitation to MEPs to speak here on this important debate. The European Union treaty was agreed at a meeting of Heads of State in June 2004 which was the culmination of an extensive process. In 2001, EU Heads of Government set up a structure known as the EU Convention, which brought forward proposals for a new European Union treaty to the Heads of State meeting in Greece in 2003. It is important to emphasise this because in previous treaties on which we voted we were told by those who opposed them that they were not open and transparent. I congratulate the Irish members involved in this Convention — Deputy Carey, Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, John Bruton and Deputy Gormley — on all the work they did. Over 16 to 18 months they brought together many people, including the young, trade unions, civil society, national governments, national parliaments, European parliamentarians and groups representing many different areas of civic society, who had speaking rights. They discussed this issue and put many ideas together. It is important to stress this because those who oppose the work of the Convention cannot in honesty say it was not a unique, open and transparent process worked out over a long period by many who put their own views forward.

During the first six months of last year, under the Irish Presidency of the European Union, negotiations were intensified and the diplomatic skills of our key negotiatiors during this process must be recognised. The Taoiseach, as President of the EU Council of Ministers, used his extensive diplomatic skills to broker an agreement for a new EU treaty and achieved success, ably assisted by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, who was then Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, who was then Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for European affairs.

Securing agreement on a new EU treaty was a crowning achievement of the Government during its Presidency of the European Union. This was the Presidency that also oversaw the accession of ten new member states. One cannot underestimate the success of our Presidency. The work it did was extraordinary. Many said it could not be done but the Government did it and deserve our congratulations.

We now live in a Union of 25 member states with 470 million people. The European Union is enlarging in size. Romania and Bulgaria are set to join in 2007 while the Union is embarking on an aggressive policy to ensure many of the countries in the Balkans can join.

I wish to refer to a point made by Senator Ross and referred to by the Leader. What will this do for Ireland? What is the future? We know what the Union has done in the past but what will it do in the future? Social partnership has helped us all. Senator Ross mentioned low inflation and low interest rates. One of the main benefits is that we have access to a market of 470 million people. That is extraordinary for a country of just over 4 million people. We have full economic access and we have made that pay for us.

When the debate adjourned for lunch I opened some of our letters which contained a document stating that in 2005, the Irish workforce will reach 2 million, the economy will generate a projected 61,000 new jobs, there will be an 8.3% increase in demand for labour, 49% of companies have vacancies, 64% of companies are more likely to expand business, 75% of companies have difficulties in filling vacancies, 40% have expansion plans being hindered by recruitment difficulties and manufacturing redundancies will fall. If anybody wants an answer to my question I have just answered it. Can anybody honestly say we should not fully participate in the EU and have our feet under the table? If we want enlightened social policies we must have a vibrant economy. If we want to address social exclusion and have a proper education system, proper schools, proper hospitals and a proper health care system we must have a vibrant economy. If we do not have a vibrant economy we will not have the money to do that. That is what Europe has done for us.

We cannot ignore what Europe has delivered for us. As Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, said, it is not perfect. The constitution contains articles that I like as well as articles I dislike. It is a unique experiment. Never before in the history of the world have 25 nations come together. We are part of that process and we play a key role. We should continue to play such a role without prevaricating. I respect the views of others on the constitution, but they are not the same as mine.

From an Irish perspective we had four main concerns entering into the Intergovernmental Conference process and they have been addressed. There is retention of unanimity with regard to all taxation matters. There is a maintenance of appropriate safeguards in the area of criminal law. Our traditional policy of military neutrality is fully protected and there is a maintenance of institutional balance, in particular, in regard to our representation in the EU Commission. Ireland has nothing to fear from this treaty but it is important for those of us who support it to fight a vigorous and determined campaign to ensure we ratify it because it represents a good deal for Ireland. It is also a good deal for the European Union.

Mr. Higgins, MEP

I join with all sides in commending the Leader, Senator O'Rourke, and the House for the invitation to this important debate. Some 35 years ago, almost to the day, General de Gaulle expressed a dream and a wish that he wanted to see a united Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. He was dismissed at the time as an old statesman, a dreamer, a misguided visionary. Who could blame people for being sceptical because of the situation at the time?

All the eastern European states were locked in the icy grip of communism and of Moscow. The Berlin Wall was in place. There was military polarisation between the East and the West involving NATO on the one hand and the Warsaw Pact countries on the other. When any of the Warsaw Pact countries dared to step outside the defined boundaries of Moscow they were ruthlessly suppressed. Let us think, for example, of Hungary in 1956 when the Danube ran red with blood, of Czechoslovakia and the Dubcek revolt and when President Kennedy went to the Berlin Wall and said "Ich bin ein Berliner”. It was not an act of vision but an expression of solidarity with the beleaguered people of East Germany. How things have changed in the meantime. These new eastern democratic states, which are former members of the Warsaw Pact, are now sitting down with us in the European Parliament week in, week out. A number of weeks ago, the leader of the orange revolution, Victor Yushenko, visited the Parliament on behalf of his country, Ukraine. He stated he was not tilting his hat towards Moscow but rather towards the European Union.

Bulgaria and Romania are now knocking at the door, talks on the accession of Turkey are ongoing and it is only a matter of time before Croatia becomes a member. We are participating in the most successful political and democratic exercise in the history of democracy, as has been stated on many occasions in this House.

A new constitution is needed because the whole process of a constitution has grown up, Lego-like. The Treaty of Rome 1957 was followed by the Single European Act, the Maastrict treaty, as referred to by Senator O'Rourke, the Amsterdam treaty in 1997, and the Nice treaties 1 and 2. What is required is a consolidated treaty to pull all the strands, principles, aims and values together into one document and what we are looking for is contained in this document.

This document has been set down in the clearest possible terms. Although it enshrines the values of 25 countries, it is not a tome but rather a very concise document. Part 1 sets out the values, aims and principles. Part 2 is crucial and sets out the charter on fundamental rights. Part 3 sets out the policies and the actions. As Gay Mitchell, MEP, said when referring to Part 4 which deals with the new instruments and the changes, it allows for adaptations in the future.

However, there is no point in having a fine product unless we can sell it and I am genuinely worried about the salesmanship involved. I have only one regret about today's debate, namely, that the Minister, Deputy Roche, was not in a position to give us a date for the referendum. We need a date so we can begin working on the campaign.

Nothing I could say could pay adequate tribute to the Taoiseach for the manner in which he managed to do what the Italian Presidency did not do, to the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and to the then Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche. They did a magnificent job which demonstrated the capacity of Ireland to deal with tricky situations when other countries have failed. Getting agreement on the text of the document is one thing, selling it is another. It is essential to know the date because unless our campaign is vigorous and dynamic, I am fearful that the referendum will fall which would be a tragedy for Ireland and for Europe. This is a document that makes Europe more open, transparent and democratic, and that guarantees peace, prosperity and stability. We need to have the debate up and running immediately.

I welcome all our MEPs to the House. This debate is a manifestation of one of the most worthwhile aspects of Seanad reform on which I would like to compliment both the Leader and her colleagues.

I wish to consider the constitutional treaty from a republican perspective. A united Ireland, like a united Germany, will only happen in a united Europe. A former French socialist Foreign Minister stated in Dublin recently that the treaty was a constitutional treaty between sovereign states, not a constitution for a federal state. Our membership of the European Union fulfils many of the dreams and aspirations of Irish Nationalists over four centuries.

It was in 1627 that Owen Roe O'Neill made a proposal for an Irish Republic under Spanish protection. Last week in the House we remembered the 260th anniversary of the battle of Fontenoy. I will quote the verses to which the Leader of the House referred:

And Fontenoy, famed Fontenoy, had been a Waterloo, were not these exiles ready then, fresh, vehement and true.

Thomas Davis a century later said:

Foreign alliances have ever stood among the pillars of national power. Again it is particularly needful for Ireland to have a foreign policy intimacy with the great powers who will guard us from English interference.

The leaders of the 1916 Rising needed for morale purposes to refer to gallant allies in Europe. The difference today is we live in a peaceful era and not a warlike one. We are able to have both a close British-Irish partnership and an equally important partnership with many European countries. This is a form of synthesis of history.

The EU has enabled this Republic to flourish, to grow from having an income of less than two thirds of the EU average to the average and it is still on an upward trajectory. Full membership of the EU has enabled a relationship of better equality. It has helped us to vindicate the republican project in this part of Ireland, which has to be the basis of the republican project in any other part of Ireland. It pains me to hear any republican voice mouthing the mantras of Mrs. Thatcher at Bruges about a European superstate.

Elementary Marxism will state that politics is based on economics. A superstate based on an income scarcely more than 1% of GDP is a complete absurdity. I am also surprised to see outside the House a former leading light of the Connolly Association who is now writing Eurosceptic documents for President Vaclav Klaus of the Czech Republic, who is the leading disciple of Mrs. Thatcher in central Europe.

There is talk of a European Foreign Minister but he or she will not have power on his or her own but only with the mandate of the member states. I see very little likelihood of a full-blown European defence in substitution of NATO. I do not think we either need or want to abandon our neutral traditions which are not incompatible with collective security under UN auspices on a regional basis. Who are we defending Europe against? One might say, terrorists, but if that is the case, the solidarity clause is already provided for in this treaty.

The EU is neither the ultra-liberal, Anglo-Saxon caricature nor the ultra-socialist one that is sometimes depicted for Britain. I was interested to read in today's newspapers of a eurozone being established in west Belfast. How that squares with the opposition of Sinn Féin to Ireland joining the euro I am not sure but it is a very welcome development. The one thing that is of interest to the Northern business community — which is made up of both traditions — is our greater ease and integration into Europe. The last thing we want is to align ourselves with a sort of Michael Howard party type policy on Europe.

What is the advantage and attraction of such a policy if we are trying to persuade people of the greater attractions of a united Ireland? Opposition to a united Europe as represented in this constitution is damaging to the prospects of a united Ireland. A leading Sinn Féin person who is very well known, admitted to me recently that Sinn Féin policy on Europe had not been updated for 30 years. I appeal to Sinn Féin to rethink its opposition on the European project. We must realise that we must fight battles in Europe from within and not from without.

All over central and eastern Europe can be seen the dynamic impact of the European project in widening democracy, human rights, peace and stability. I look forward to when de Gaulle's vision of a Europe stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals is realised.

Listening to Senator Mansergh, I could not help observing how much more appropriate it would have been if the representative of Sinn Féin had been seated on the other side of the House along with Fianna Fáil, the Republican Party, that spawned Sinn Féin.

She has joined the Independents.

Sinn Féin Members are not independent. They are not even independent of their army. They should be on the other side of the House with the party which spawned them. I could say I respect what Gerry Adams calls his party's mandate.

The Senator should speak to the European constitution.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for reminding me that I am speaking about the European constitution. This afternoon represents an exercise very largely in historical blather. We have all this stuff about the war and so on. Does anybody suggest that if the treaty fails, which I believe is very likely, we would all be back to war again? I do not think so.

The chief blatherer.

It seems as if that is going down a very dangerous and speculative road. We have also heard, probably correctly, that Europe will not interfere through its courts and through policy direction in what are regarded coyly in this country as moral matters and that Europe will not give central direction on issues like abortion, divorce, etc. While that is true, I point out that in the early days in a very undemocratic way a small unrepresentative group in this country got a protocol about abortion in an EU treaty without reference to either House of the Oireachtas or the people. That was not a particularly democratic move. I believe there is a democratic deficit, which I believe will continue under this new treaty. It has been acknowledged that a certain level of decision making is being removed from the people and transferred to the Oireachtas under these provisions.

An esteemed former colleague, Mr. Crowley, MEP, is present. I was rather taken aback when I noticed that he and his party colleagues supported Mr. Buttiglioni. This refers to the European Union and I will say it.

I would not agree. The Senator should speak on the European constitution.

That is what I am doing. I am talking about the democratic deficit and I will continue to do so. Mr. Buttiglioni campaigned and voted on equality issues. I suggest to Mr. Crowley, MEP, that if he had campaigned and voted on the rights of people in wheelchairs in the same way he would have been very quick to get him off any committee that dealt with that area. However, I believe it is quite possible we will be let off the hook. Despite the superb work done in negotiating the treaty, for which I pay full tribute to the Taoiseach and the diplomatic staff involved, it looks very likely that France may vote down the treaty. According to the polls, the Netherlands, Poland, Denmark and Britain may do the same, in which case we would not face into a referendum here.

I understand people have suggested that this treaty is only an exercise in consolidation. While that is very largely true — perhaps 95% true — I wish we had heard more from the Minister, Deputy Roche, and others about the 5% that is new. I have always been concerned about the incremental nature of these treaties and our involvement in processes that will disturb our neutrality, which I still cherish, such as our involvement with the Western European Union armament group.

Other matters also concern me regarding negotiations from the Vatican. I have material from Catholics for a Free Choice. This does not represent a sectarian position. These are Catholics of conscience warning about the negotiations——

They are not Catholics. They are not members of the church.

I ask Senator Lydon to allow Senator Norris to speak.

—— under which special provisions are being made for the church, including the kinds of shameful provisions that were made in this country to exempt religious institutions from the operation of the equality legislation. What kind of Christianity is it if we have the major Christian churches exempting themselves from equality——

The Senator should confine himself to debate on the European constitution.

That is exactly what I am doing.

I would not think so.

I am astonished that the Cathaoirleach could find that I am not. I am talking about the impact of lobbying on the constitution. I could not be more centrally directed or more focused. For the information of the Cathaoirleach, I am talking about paragraph 1 of section 52 of the treaty. Does that satisfy his requirements?

The church has acquired consultative status, which provides for the Catholic Church to be consulted in the pre-drafting stage of legislation when it is believed it would have an interest. People are right to feel concerned about the issue. I very much hope that this aspect at least will not be confirmed in the treaty.

I am divided on the treaty. I was against earlier treaties because of their military aspect. However, the neo-conservative lobby is against this treaty because it fears a balance that a stronger Europe would give. The evil empire, which has sprung up under President Bush, violates every possible aspect of human rights and undermines democracy anywhere it springs up in its own backyard. While the Americans are quite happy to foster it in Russia's backyard, they do not like it anywhere near themselves. This worries me and it represents the best possible reason for having a strong European entity.

Like my colleagues, I welcome our distinguished visitors to the House. I could not help but reflect on what Senator Norris had to say. When he talked about the blather of the war, I was thinking about all the homosexuals who were incarcerated in concentration camps. The treaty and the whole European Union project are about ensuring that such an event would never happen again.

I did not defend anything Mr. Buttiglioni said. If anything was wrong about that affair it was the manner in which then European Parliament disgraced itself in the way in which it treated a man who had his own personal religious views. While we may talk about tolerance and equality, that was an example of what can happen with the socio-liberal view that now seems so widespread in mainstream Europe.

Rubbish. The Senator should consider Mr. Buttiglioni's voting record.

While I do not know the man from Adam——

We are not discussing that man now. We are discussing the European constitution.

In the context of the European constitution and the purpose of the Union, which is about tolerance equality, and equity, that was an example of what can happen when somebody goes against the mainstream view. Voltaire was not too far wrong and perhaps Senator Norris might reflect on that matter also.

The Senator should reflect on Mr. Buttiglioni's voting record, which showed he was the most inappropriate person to be a European Commissioner.

Senator Mooney should speak on the European constitution and should not provoke interruptions.

This year is the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the European flag. It was adopted originally by the Council of Europe and was subsequently adopted as the European flag by the European Union. The person responsible for designing the flag was an Irish man, Gerard Slevin, the then Chief Herald of Ireland, in 1955.

He was a Corkman.

I said he was an Irishman. I presume Cork is part of Ireland. When the first referendum took place to allow entry into the EEC, I, along with my late father and my very much alive mother, was part of the 18% who voted against. I did so for a variety of reasons. The reasons put forward at the time are the same ones put forward by those opposed to the constitution. Senator Mansergh referred to parties needing to update their policies on Europe. I was wrong then and if I was wrong then I would be even more wrong today.

The experience of the past 33 years has shown that membership of the European Union has been good for Ireland. Many shibboleths and fears existed then, which was only 40 years after the country had got partial independence. That fear is emulated to some degree and reflected in the attitude of many of the former Soviet states, which are fearful that they might be swapping one dictatorship in Moscow for another in Brussels. However, practically all the emerging states are now in favour of the European Union. I would be more inclined to take my lead from countries and from people who have suffered horrendously after the falling of the Iron Curtain in 1945 than I would from those who are comfortable and living in a somewhat luxurious environment on the western periphery of Europe and never had to face up to those realities.

Representing this Parliament, I was privileged to have been part of the debate on the charter on fundamental rights. Part I of the treaty, with the incorporation of that charter, has enshrined equality and human rights to an extraordinary degree. That is what the European Union has always been about. I fail to understand those who, when they use rhetoric against ratification of the treaty, refer to such matters as the improvement of equality and human rights. Surely the whole raison d’être of the European Union is the protection of human rights. The Minister, Deputy Roche, referred to the European Court and quite rightly lauded that it would now become part of the wider European ideal in the context of the adoption of the treaty. There is a backlog of 80,000 cases, and this week the Council of Europe, meeting at a summit in Poland, heard a speech from the Taoiseach in which he called for reform of the European Court of Human Rights. I applaud that, since I believe that our colleagues in the European Parliament should work towards greater reform. It is obviously a popular concept with European citizens if 80,000 of them feel the European Court of Human Rights is the best place to secure redress.

We all applaud the role of national parliaments, particularly the six-week window, and the fact that, if there is a consensus among a minimum number of states, the "yellow card" can be introduced regarding Commission proposals. That is a very real advance. There is a challenge for this Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is not much point in granting the power to scrutinise European Union legislation if the House committees do not have the resources to do so effectively and properly.

Hear, hear.

If there is a challenge at all in the context of this European treaty debate, from the point of view of a parliamentarian and a member of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, and with other colleagues on House committees who have been subjected to the scrutiny process so far, I can say that it is deeply flawed. I do not know who is responsible for the dispersal of funds, whether it be the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission or the Government of the day. However, we will be tilting at windmills if we seriously think we are addressing scrutiny while operating under the current system in the Oireachtas. That is my main point in the context of the drive towards adoption of the treaty.

In the context of foreign policy, there is a triple lock. I am not totally in favour of it, as Macedonia constituted a peacekeeping effort in which Ireland was unable to take part because the Chinese vetoed a UN resolution owing to Macedonia's recognition of Taiwan. That is where the triple lock is flawed. I do not believe that it will change in the short term, but the issue needs to be addressed in the medium to long term.

Like other colleagues, I have no great enthusiasm for the constitution but no great difficulty with it either. The Labour Party has long since recanted its mistake in 1972 of opposing membership of the EEC — or at least most of us. From our political perspective, this comes from one simple realisation, namely, that capital is organised multinationally. To ensure one has proper standards of social provision, decent environmental standards and so on, one must operate on the basis of co-operation between nations at the very least. If there were no other reason, that would be sufficient for the Labour Party and the Social Democrats throughout Europe to support the European project generally.

Personally, I would have liked to see something much more radical in the constitution. It should have gone a good deal further. I would like to have seen much more common foreign policy, including defence. We should be looking to establish structures from which a federal Europe can in time develop. However, it is far from that. What we have is very much a compromise that should, on the face of it, provide little difficulty for anyone.

In the few minutes available to me, I wish to address an issue that I have not yet heard debated today. I suppose it may scare many of us off, and perhaps that is right. I speak of the elephant in the room, perhaps the biggest reason so many people in France, the Netherlands and Denmark may vote "No", namely, immigration.

In a sense, we are joining this debate at a very late stage. Our experience thus far has been unique. We have relatively transient immigrant communities. We do not know how long they will stay, but by and large they do not stay very long. We have not had the experience of Britain, France, Austria, the Netherlands or Germany. Large sections of major cities such as London, Paris and Berlin are occupied mainly by people who may very well not want to be there, who speak a different language from the host nation, have a different culture, and are frequently not welcomed.

We must get our heads around this issue. I am not suggesting there is a clear or obvious division between those who argue for a multicultural society and those who wish to argue for integration. It is not that clear-cut. No one is suggesting that people who come intending to stay, bring up their children and die here should leave every element of their culture at home — far from it. Nor are we saying to people — I certainly am not — that they should come and take part of our city or country and make it like part of their own.

We should be saying to immigrant communities that they should come and live among us, find out about us and our history, learn our language and know our culture, taking from it and giving to their children what they will. By all means, they should retain and practise their own culture too. However, we must make it clear that we want people to integrate and take of our Irishness, becoming Irish in a sense themselves. They should not turn their backs on their own country, culture, background and history but make theirs part of ours too. This is not relevant to tomorrow, next year or the year after, but it may very well be relevant in 20 years. It will be relevant if, in 25 years, we have a new generation of Irish people whose parents were not born here. It is high time we had that debate, since this issue is charged. It brings out emotions that for many can be quite raw. However, the worst thing we could do would be to ignore it, pretend there is no issue and that we do not in some way feel uncomfortable when we see something so dramatically different from our culture and way of life on our streets. We cannot pretend that we can integrate without making the effort of understanding and educating nor can we ask others to integrate without encouraging or assisting them to understand our culture and history. That is the primary point I wanted to make today.

I support the constitution. Professor Richard Sinnott of UCD recently produced a study at the Joint Committee on European Affairs in which he showed that the various referenda we have had over the years on European issues have been no more than one referendum held every four years about the same issue, which is essentially a barometer of public opinion about "Europe". Asking the people about Maastricht did not get a response on the single currency. People who voted on Nice II did not know a great deal more than when they voted differently a few years earlier on Nice I. In essence, all one is asking people at any given time is how they feel about Europe. Perhaps this is not politically correct, but we must ask ourselves whether this is a sensible way to run the Union.

If we have a net question about which people are really concerned, such as participation in military alliances, by all means let us go to them with it, but we cannot go to them, assuming the constitution is passed — a big "if"— with each and every amendment. To do so is to court trouble and, frankly, does not increase our understanding of the European Union or add a great deal to our democracy.

I believe that if this constitutional treaty were called by another name, such as the EU Treaty or the Treaty of Paris or Dublin, it would not generate the same degree of negative comment. The very word "constitution" conjures up images of a superstate, a supranational parliament, and even of an empire, yet the process of drawing up this treaty was more participative, deliberative, open and transparent than any previous treaty-making exercise in Europe. This is a value map to guide and determine the substance of the Union's action. Ultimately, the translation of these values and objectives into policy depends on sincere, committed and considered leadership, as well as political will. The treaty enhances the Union's capacity to act, while providing considerable gains in democracy and transparency, filling many of the lacunae identified in earlier treaties. It provides a flexible constitutional framework, which will enable the EU to meet its internal and external challenges in the years ahead.

If this treaty is ratified, it will come into force on 1 November 2006, or on the first day of the second month after the last member state deposits its ratification. There is a provision to amend the treaty, but it is recommended as a permanent roadmap for the future of the EU. Whether the EU citizens share the vision of Schuman and the founding fathers will depend on debate and the political will of any given time. What we are doing today is a useful exercise as it is our job to encourage debate in a free and open way. This endeavour is not just to operate a set of rules and regulations — it is much more than that. It is a pathway to peace and an absence of war. Europe has been without this major war for a long time. War means death, pain, injustice, famine, disease and pestilence. Most of all it means hatred that goes on for generations. When the wounds are healed and the hatreds have stopped, we forget what happened.

I suggest that people who do not intend voting for this treaty take a trip to Auschwitz and Belsen and other camps, where millions of people were put to death simply because they were Jews, homosexuals or gypsies. Let me remind the House what happened in the very first week that the Nazis entered Russia. They destroyed 1,000 aeroplanes and 5,000 tanks, but they killed 1 million men. The Russians themselves lost more than 28 million people in the war. They were no saints either and in one go they killed 10,000 Polish officers.

Why do we need all of this? We have a roadmap and something that will enable us to stay with this peaceful process. In that sense this is more than just a treaty. It is not just a constitution as it gives an opportunity for 25 nation states and 425 million people to keep the peace in Europe. That is the basis of all of this. The absence of peace is too horrific to imagine. We might say that it could not happen again, but we did not know the atrocities Pol Pot, Idi Amin or Hitler would commit. These things happen throughout history. We have a pathway to peace and I urge all peoples to walk this path, to ratify the constitution and to establish a Union where people can live, work and hope in a democratic community.

Ms Doyle, MEP

I thank the Leader for inviting us here today and for her hospitality. I also thank the Irish Presidency of last year for a job very well done. This constitutional treaty, which is like a second Treaty of Rome, was signed last October. The Single European Act in 1986 set the stage for an ever closer Union, which was envisaged by the signatories of the first Treaty of Rome in 1957. This was followed by the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice, paving the way for the enlargement of Europe that we have today.

Since our accession to the EEC in 1973, we have undergone profound social and economic changes. Any independent analysis of the impact of the European project on Ireland will show we have prospered economically. We have become a confident and psychologically independent nation only since we joined Europe and were weaned off our dependence on Britain, which still continues to be a very important trading partner. In 1973, the UK absorbed 75% of our exports yet 30 years and a single market later, we now send approximately 25% of our produce there. Britain is still an important trading partner, but in a completely different proportion. Access to the European market has arguably been the single most important factor in our economic growth and in our attitudinal development as a psychologically independent nation. In areas where member states have seen fit to co-operate on a European level, we have also seen the benefits of membership of this unique European community of nations. In social and environmental policy, as well as justice and home affairs, we have seen the direct benefits of membership of Europe in all our daily lives.

However, these achievements do not take account of the original and most important impetus underpinning European integration. That is the determination never to allow a repeat of the great slaughters of the last century which wiped out over 60 million European men, women and children in the trenches of disease and of hunger. Peace and stability are the cornerstones of this European project. From six original members, the Union now has 25, soon to be 27 with the signing of an accession treaty by Bulgaria and Romania only last month.

One of the greatest emotional scares is to claim that this treaty will push us into a superstate. Can I try to help others to put that to rest? Those fears are totally unfounded. I would never promote a "Yes" vote for a constitutional treaty that would begin to produce a superstate as its end product. It is not a superstate because there are no rights to raise taxes autonomously, no right to run a budget deficit as any state can, no right to raise a military force, no right to act outside the competences given to it by the member states, and no right to spend more than 1% of the combined gross national income of all member states. National governments spend approximately 40% of gross national income and we are proposing a body that will have access to slightly more than 1% of gross national income. It is not a superstate because it has no right to dictate whether a member state can leave. The treaty provides an exit clause for member states to withdraw and for the first time, member states can exit if they so wish. This is decidedly not a federal measure. Conversely, there will be no tolerance for rogue states within the Union. Should any member state consistently violate EU values, it will be possible to eject them from Europe in extreme cases.

Co-decision between the Council and the Parliament with qualified majority voting — where 55% of member states represent 65% of European citizens — will be extended under the constitutional treaty. This is the most democratic decision making process and is necessary to achieve consensus in an enlarged Europe. Far from undermining sovereignty, this reinforces democratic accountability by conferring powers on the directly elected European Parliament and not just on the Council of Ministers. A third guarantee of sovereignty is the involvement of national parliaments. The revelation of what goes on behind closed doors in the Council of Ministers is also a very important part in creating transparency.

There have been many scaremongers on defence issues. There was a recent statement by Sinn Féin that the ratification of the constitution will result in increased spending on weaponry and increased militarisation. I will not go into the glaring hypocrisy of such a statement, but it is factually incorrect. Defence remains entirely a national issue, with all member states retaining full power to decide how they wish to be involved. Ireland's triple lock will not be compromised by this treaty, although I agree with the reservations of Senator Mooney and we should be ashamed of the Macedonian example. I agree with the views of Gay Mitchell on neutrality, but the treaty itself does not purport to change our so-called position on neutrality. Due to the difficulty in explaining exactly what the treaty does, we must careful in how we enter this debate.

Europe has reached a threshold which it must cross. Several decades of building Europe have resulted in a proliferation of treaties that can no longer be understood or accessed easily by citizens. Decisions are not made in the constitutional treaty but it facilitates EU governments and elected representatives to make informed decisions for which they must be accountable to EU citizens and social partners. The treaty does not take away any rights we already enjoy as Irish citizens but provides additional safeguards to protect our individual freedoms. Most important, the treaty lets us know our rights and responsibilities. It will not supersede the Irish Constitution which will continue to be the basic legal document of the State. It will provide the framework rather than the content of EU policy which will continue to be decided by policy makers at national level.

I propose to share my time with Senator Kitt.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the MEPs and thank them for their attendance at this crucial debate. Ireland has played a role at the heart of Europe's affairs for more than 50 years and the EU has benefitted from that role. We should not tamper lightly with this relationship and must ensure there is informed and debated decision making. I welcome the contributions of other Members and guests which expand on several provisions of the proposed constitution.

However, I wish to focus on one issue, namely, the question of where power lies. For Irish people, EU affairs and referenda are often a question of whether we are ceding too much authority to the Union. Although referenda procedures and protocols generally deal with more specific topics, the debate is often reduced to this issue. The reasons for this concentration on what some might see as a minor issue are numerous. For many Irish people, this is a fundamental matter. As a nation we retain the memory of a struggle for independence and subsequent development on the international stage. We are in the main strongly attached to our Constitution, institutions and system of administration.

Each of us, whether representatives of the Oireachtas or the EU, must be able to counter the claims, whether rational or otherwise, that the new constitution means giving up too much power to Brussels and that it will replace our own Constitution. We must refute the notion that a ratification of the EU constitution means Ireland will no longer decide how its own people want to live. To this end, there must be an emphasis on what the proposed EU constitution does and does not do.

Three issues are crucial in this regard. First, people should be reminded that constitutions exist to limit the power of the state or the EU to encroach on citizens' rights. Second, we must inform citizens that the proposed constitution affirms that the Union is a subsidiary to member states. The EU may act only in those areas where the objectives of the intended action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the member states but can rather be better achieved at Union level. The constitution establishes the principle that the Union derives its power from its member states. It does not represent the ceding of more power but rather prevents the Union from encroaching on the rights of member states other than in those areas in which they have been voluntarily ceded.

Third, citizens are concerned about the EU having, for the first time, a legal personality under the proposed constitution. This concern is heightened by the statements of some parties that EU laws will trump all those of national Parliaments including the Oireachtas. Particular reference is made to the statement, "The constitution and law adopted by the Union's institutions in exercising competences conferred on it shall have primacy over the law of the member states". Citizens must be reassured that this provision merely conforms the status quo. If the EU is allowed to legislate in the area of policy, its laws will overtake any national laws but only where we have allowed it to do so. In areas where the EU does not legislate, Irish law prevails. This has always been the case and we must ensure it remains so. There will be some who try to confuse and frustrate on this matter and we have a duty to inform and explain so that scaremongering and lies do not gain status in this important debate.

I welcome the MEPs and thank the Leader for allowing this debate. Like other speakers, I commend the website of the Department of Foreign Affairs which gives clear, comprehensive and positive information on the constitution. A good deal of commentary tends to focus on what is not in the constitution. For example, we are frequently reminded that there will be no EU army and no conscription. The Department's website mentions the launch by the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, of a book, The European Constitution Uncensored, at the Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology in Galway. The website observes that this book describes the constitution as the most democratic document ever produced in the long history of Europe. This is an important point.

The simplification of procedures is clearly set out in the constitution in regard, for example, to the role of national parliaments and the EU Parliament and that EU laws must be made in public. We must bear one issue in mind. Most of us assumed the Nice treaty was concerned with a simple case of enlarging the Union. However, that treaty was initially rejected by the public and we cannot take an acceptance of the constitutional treaty for granted.

We must acknowledge public concern about the many EU directives coming on board that we will not have an opportunity to discuss adequately. For instance, that restrictions have been placed on the cutting of turf is an important issue in the west and midlands. People often wonder if we are conserving the peat for all of Europe. I understand the need for the directive but I do not comprehend why people who stopped cutting in 1999 do not get paid the same rate as those who stopped in 2004. This is just one practical example of the issues with regard to directives.

In the last few days I have received much correspondence about EU directives on recycling of electrical waste. Recycling is important and we are all in favour of it. However, many electrical retailers argue that it should be the producer who is obliged to deal with such waste. There are many issues such as this which we must explain clearly. From our experience of the first referendum on the Nice treaty, we cannot take it for granted that the constitution will be ratified. Information must be provided and explained clearly so that we can engage properly with the public in this debate.

Ms McDonald, MEP

Tá mé an-sásta a bheith anseo libh inniu agus a bheith ag caint sa díospóireacht thábhachtach seo. I commend the Leader and the Seanad for taking the initiative in holding this debate. I hope it will resonate across villages and towns throughout the State. On the next occasion that we meet, I hope each of the 16 MEPs elected in Ireland will have the opportunity to participate in this debate. Referenda on the constitutional treaty will take place both North and South, which means that for the first time, all voters in Ireland will be asked to give their verdict on European matters. In light of that, it is important that the debate and consideration is all-Ireland in nature.

The debate is not about whether we are pro-European or anti-European. There is no question of whether Ireland is European because it is an ancient European nation. That is taken as a given. The debate is about the nature of the EU as a political project. Previous speakers have correctly identified that this project is a unique one and, in many respects, experimental. It is a project that must be closely attached and in line with popular wishes and demands. It is only in this way that it can command the level of interest and support that speakers wish it to have.

The constitution brings us to a fork in the road. Despite what the Minister said earlier, another Europe is possible. I believe that a popular will exists to amend, change and, in some cases, transform the direction in which the European Union is currently set. A desire exists among sections of the political elite to establish a de facto federal Europe. I do not express the countervailing view with the intention of being awkward or irritating Members of this Chamber but because I do not believe that such a European Union would be in the best interests of people in Ireland or other jurisdictions.

Earlier this week, Sinn Féin outlined its position and expressed its determination to campaign for a "No" vote in this referendum. The reasons for this relate to democracy, the militarisation of the EU and matters of economic policy. My colleague, Mr. Crowley, MEP, is correct to say these issues are old chestnuts which were of concern 30 years ago. I remind Members they are of equal concern today.

The Laeken declaration told us that the Convention would consider how to address the democratic deficit. It is accepted that a democratic malaise lies at the heart of the European Union. The Convention was to solve this problem but has failed to do so. Today, there has been discussion in this Chamber about an enhanced role for national Parliaments. While increased information flow will undoubtedly result if this constitution is passed, no national parliament is given real teeth in terms of intervening in Commission proposals. The Commission is not bound to withdraw or amend a proposal should national Parliaments exercise a yellow card. We have been told about the citizens' initiative, where 1 million citizens of a number of member states can put matters on the agenda. This is a sop, as is all the fine rhetoric on subsidiarity. The constitution has chosen to overlook solutions to the democratic deficit. If it is passed, it will do nothing to remedy the democratic malaise at the heart of the European Union.

I have been criticised for scaremongering on the issue of militarisation but have done nothing of the sort. The constitution includes a special place for NATO. A UN mandate is not required for European operations. A provision exists for a European armaments agency. I remind Ms Doyle, MEP, that a requirement is placed on member states to increase military capabilities. This, to my logic, suggests an increase in military spending.

I reject the suggestion that the economic dogma which is currently at the heart of the EU project should be set in a constitutional text. It is unprecedented and inappropriate. I concur with other speakers in asking the Government to bring forward, as speedily as possible, the referendum Bill and ask for the early announcement of a date for the referendum. In conclusion, I ask that people respect different views.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Ms McDonald, MEP

If this is not done, a debate will not be possible. It is insulting, not only to political representatives, but also to the many members of the public who share these views, to suggest that those of us with a contrary position have no acquaintance with the truth.

I hope to refute the negative arguments of my colleague, Ms McDonald, MEP. In seven countries, the European constitution has already been ratified by referendum or in Parliament. The suggestion today is that many countries will reject the constitution. If Ireland is to retain its standard of living and ensure international investment, it is critical that it remains at the heart of Europe. Common sense dictates that we vote yes. The Government has maintained pressure on Europe to allow us to retain the 12.5% corporation tax. We are entitled to this tax, which is one of the secrets of our success. I am pragmatic about the European Union. Quality of life for Irish people will be maintained through a positive vote.

I wish to discuss current events in France. Two weeks ago, Mr. Nicolas Sarkozy, president of the UMP and a prospective presidential candidate in 2007, implored young French people to vote "Yes" for Europe. He told them not to allow the negative attitude of French people to their sluggish economy and high level of unemployment to get in the way of voting for Europe. I do not need to repeat earlier arguments about the positive aspects of Europe. Mr. Sarkozy, who is 50 years of age, said that it was the first time a person of his age was not called up to fight in a war. This is all about Europe and its foundation of peace.

While I studied for my leaving certificate in 1962, I was inundated with Government missives on Europe and held discussions on topics such as buntáistí agus míbhuntáistí an chómhargadh. It is clear that Europe has been good for Ireland. Women, including myself in 1969, had to leave their jobs in the Civil Service after marriage until a European directive in 1973 ended this requirement. The charter of human rights will bring greater equality to women in Ireland.

Recently, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said that a quarter or 1 million of all Catholics in the country live in Dublin. However, there will be only one ordination this year and there will be none next year. I am a practising Catholic and a member of a choir but I will not say where——

(Interruptions).

I am member of the Star of the Sea choir in south-east Dublin.

I wonder if Deputy Eoin Ryan would like to comment on that.

Under the human rights charter, some country could take up the issue of women not being allowed to become priests.

I am a practising Catholic but there are many Roman Catholic Nationalists who are against women becoming priests. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said he would like to introduce deacons into the church and that they would be trained up to give communion and hold funeral services but that women could not be deacons in the Catholic Church. I cannot predict when it will happen but I believe the future looks more optimistic for women.

I would like to be a bishop.

I do not want to be a priest.

Ms Doyle, MEP

What about married priests in the constitution?

Senator Ross asked if the economic situation in some member states was as a result of the Union. In 1989 West Germany welcomed East Germany and the ostmark and, unfortunately, made the economic mistake of giving it the same value as the deutschemark. I visited East Germany twice after the Berlin Wall came down and saw the dilapidated state of East German industry. I congratulate the former Chancellor, Helmut Kohl, on reunifying Germany but it is still paying the price. France has sluggish, traditionalist and uncompetitive industry. It has a 35-hour working week andNicolas Sarkozy said that was the reason it had high unemployment.

I congratulate the Leader for arranging this debate which is much more exciting than the one we had on the Nice Treaty last year. I compliment the Chairman of the National Forum on Europe, Senator Maurice Hayes, on the tremendous work he has done. His document, the summary on Europe, should be sent to every citizen in the country.

Senator White is electioneering.

Mr. Coveney, MEP

It will not be easy to follow that but I will try to be relevant.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Coveney, MEP

That was not meant as a smart comment.

Those who remarked are the ones with the problem.

Mr. Coveney, MEP

It is an honour to speak in the Seanad for the first time. I congratulate those responsible for this debate and hope it is not the last time we have a long discussion on the Constitution for Europe before the people are asked to make a choice.

Senator Brendan Ryan said he voted against Ireland joining the European Union in 1972. I was born in 1972 and have never known anything other than membership of what has developed into the current European Union. As a result, I am part of a relatively young generation of people in Ireland who are confident, ambitious, who have fewer hang-ups about our closest neighbour than perhaps many previous generations and who are perhaps spokespersons for a more independent and sovereign Ireland than has ever existed in the past thanks, in part, to membership of the European Union.

Last week I attended an extraordinary debate in the European Parliament and listened to Members speak on the anniversary of the Second World War. What it signified for me was the difference in meaning of the European Union to the different countries. If one asks an Irish person what the European Union means to him or her, he or she will probably say it means sources of funding to build roads, tunnels and infrastructure, support systems for farmers, difficulties for fisheries and so on. If one asks a German what the European Union means to him or her, he or she will say it means peace and probably stability. The emotive contributions, particularly from the German leaders of the various groups in the European Parliament, were an example of how important is the European project to countries that are still at the heart of Europe. It was a timely reminder for many of the countries which joined later on and which were perhaps not involved in the two world wars to the same extent as many other European countries.

I turn to the constitution for Europe, the purpose of this debate. In simple terms, there are two strong benefits to this constitutional treaty. The biggest plus is that it is a simplification of what have been a series of incredibly complex treaties, although it will not win any awards for prose.

Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

The preamble is not bad.

Mr. Coveney, MEP

Yes. If one compares it to previous treaty documents, including the Nice Treaty and others, for which one would need a parliamentary draftsperson to explain what one was reading, then one can see the simplification and positive progress made in trying to address the democratic deficit, to which previous speakers referred. When one is canvassing, one can knock on a door and say to a person that it will take him or her a bit of time but if he or she reads this document or sections of it, he or she will have a good understanding of how the European Union works.

Senator Ross might like to note that the constitution in a way represents a business plan for the European Union and how it works. It sets out the responsibilities of countries, governments, the Commission and the Council and the rights citizens have as members of this huge international club, which is unique in its set-up but that has been such a remarkable success in terms of guaranteeing peace and stability. That has been the essence of what has driven Europe's economy forward over the past 60 years.

I wish to address some of the concerns raised because many of the things I was going to say have been outlined by other speakers and I do not wish to be repetitive. I would like to respond to the arguments made in support of a "No" vote in the upcoming referendum. There is concern in regard to future democracy in Europe, that there is a democratic deficit in the European Union at present and that constitution for Europe does nothing to remedy that. This debate is happening as a result of the constitutional treaty and it is the start of what I believe will be a very open, democratic and frank discussion which will involve the public between now and when we go to the polls. The process under which the constitution for Europe was put together was perhaps the greatest example of democratic involvement in the compilation of any EU treaty.

With regard to militarisation, there is a reference in the constitution for Europe to security and defence in the European Union. Let us not deny that. Primarily, any militarisation linked to this constitution or the European Parliament specifically deals with peace keeping or peace enforcement issues or in trying to provide stability in countries torn apart by war. When one votes "No" here, that is what one is voting against. Ireland is not obliged to participate if it does not so wish. However, does anyone seriously suggest that the political, economic and fiscal power of the European Union should not be used for peacekeeping purposes across the world in the future?

In the future, the European Union will be one of, if not the most influential blocs in the world. It is growing year by year and will have 500 million people as citizens after 2007, when Bulgaria and Romania join. Are we suggesting that we play no role in sending European troops to parts of the world that desperately need intervention such as the Congo, Uganda or Darfur? Will we permit people to be slaughtered and then complain that the Americans did not intervene or that the UN Security Council could not get its act together?

The European Union has a responsibility to its member states and population and also to those outside of the Union. That is a new element to its purpose. To date, the Union's purpose has primarily concerned peace and stability for its member states. The future for the European Union will see a continuation of that peace and stability. However, there will also be an attempt to spread the value system outlined in this constitution to other parts of the world, along with the kind of stability now guaranteed to us, following centuries of war.

One way we can do this is by deploying EU troops. I hope that Ireland will contribute to this effort, but it is a decision for the Irish people and will not be forced by this constitution. However, if someone states that militarisation within the European Union is a reason to vote "No", that person is stating that we should not participate in peacekeeping missions as part of the enormous wealthy bloc of counties that make up the Union.

The European Union comprises a group of countries which is not moving towards a federation. This is now more or less universally agreed within the European Parliament and individual member states. However, its raison d’être changes from year to year, which is why the treaties must be updated from time to time. The new elements, which constitute just 5% of the document, aim to update the Union so that it can be run more efficiently and to ensure it is not criticised in five or ten years’ time for still being inefficient and overly bureaucratic. Practical measures are being taken, but the primary value of this treaty is in setting out the European Union’s value system and purpose.

I dtosach, is mian liom a rá, go bhfuil an-áthas ormsa go bhfuil an díospóireacht seo ag tarlu. Níl aon amhras faoi, ach go raibh ard-chaighdeán ann agus go pearsanta, chabraigh sé liomsa a thuiscint cad díreach a bhí i gceist i mbunreacht na hEorpa. Ní hamháin an rud a bhí scríofa ann ach an cúlra a bhaineann leis agus na féidearthachtaí atá taobh istigh den mhíniú sin freisin. Ghabhaim buíochas le feisirí na hEorpa a tháinig isteach chugainn anseo agus a dtuairimí a nochtadh duinn. Tá sé sin thar a bheith tábhachtach.

I am almost overawed by the passion and virtual unanimity that exists in the House on this subject. In the years since I first entered the Seanad, the diversity of opinions which are expressed here has greatly appealed to me. The Leader referred to this aspect to some extent when she spoke of having tolerance for another opinion and indeed not only having tolerance for it, but also endeavouring through debate to harmonise different views. The debate which will take place in this House will differ from the debate which will take place outside. Much will depend on the manner in which the media act, whereas a certain discipline and order exists in the House, in terms of both time and presentation.

I can empathise with Senator Brendan Ryan in his reminiscences about 1972, because to an extent, I found myself in the same position. I shared a platform with Matt Merrigan, a very highly respected trade unionist and a local socialist in Cashel named Packie Lahey, neither of whom are with us any longer. Undoubtedly, they are listening with great interest to the debate. However, I am not as apologetic for my role in the 1970s as Senator Ryan may have been. Admittedly, he may not be apologetic because he usually stands by his opinions very strongly. The reason I am not apologetic is because I did not see my position as being in opposition to our entry into Europe, but in the context of generating a discussion.

This is also vital in this case. How do we transmit the passion and unanimity expressed by Members outside of the House? Even if a "Yes" vote is secured, there will be some negativity if we do not succeed in ensuring that the people feel ownership of what is happening. The key issue is not the actual vote or the acceptance of the constitution of Europe. Rather it is that in the future, when we encounter challenges, we must be able to tell people that they understood fully what they entered into. This struck home to me today when Senator Kitt raised the issue of turf cutting. While it might be regarded as a mundane issue in the middle of a highfalutin philosophical discussion, those Members with access to or interaction with the west and other parts of the country, including my own, knew the importance of the issue. Therefore, while it is important to have an overview and an ideological approach, we must also look at other issues.

I probably take a different standpoint from most other speakers in that I compliment Sinn Féin, not for what it states, but for providing a focus for the debate. It took some courage for Ms McDonald, MEP, to express her views in this House in a climate of virtual unanimity. While we will be obliged to get behind the rhetoric and weigh each point of view when the time comes, if people do not provide a focus for debate, even if it is the opposite to what we believe, from where will the passion come to bring people out to vote?

Unless I am mistaken, a by-election was held in Dublin which attracted a turnout of less than 30%. This is worrying and I have examined British statistics regarding voting patterns which demonstrate how, over the years, fewer and fewer people appear to be turning out to vote. The only way to ensure there will be a big turnout in the vote is by ensuring that a fully-fledged debate takes place now.

Was Europe good for Ireland? Of course it was. Ireland was also good for Europe. Ireland is an old European nation. We were European before the European Union existed. Interaction from this country took place under many headings. I am not just speaking of missionary activity but also about people who helped to develop legislatures, who interacted on education and so on. All the members are aware of this. We are the old Europeans.

In a way, this raises a point made, I believe, by Senator Brendan Ryan. I can still remember the debate over Iraq when Europe was being chastened because it was "old Europe". I was totally opposed to the war in Iraq. I stated as much in this House and the reason I did so was that I believed it to be illegal. I also believed it was immoral and unjust. I am particularly worried about some of the developments, in a military sense, currently emanating from America. We need to have a situation in Europe whereby we can stand up for ourselves when the time comes and not be lectured about democracy, rights and providing back-up support. We should not be rushed into situations.

One thing to have emerged from the debate on the major issues today is how well-represented we are in Europe by our Members. It came across in this House more strongly than it has ever done in the European Parliament. One of the reasons for that is because it is so far removed from us. I hope that in whatever work or reform is carried out on the Seanad we will continue as before because we have proved that we can match any nation in Europe through the calibre of our representatives. Economically, we are the envy of Europe. I hope that in the context of defending our sovereignty and particularly our cultural identity, as years go by we will be able to say that as well.

I wish to share my time with Senator O'Toole.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

This has been a fascinating debate and I congratulate the Leader of the House for her imagination in initiating it. I am also very pleased that Senator Maurice Hayes is present here today because he has put so much work into the Forum on Europe, at which I had the pleasure of being a delegate. The views expressed here today have been almost unanimously in favour of promoting a "Yes" vote in this proposed referendum and I am also in favour of a "Yes" vote.

It is extraordinary to think the EU, which has been a most benign institution, should suddenly be governed by a malign constitution. I cannot see such a scenario happening. The promotion of the idea that people are looking for a federal Europe is mistaken. Any democratic deficit that occurs could be because we have not inspired sufficient people within the various member states to take an interest in EU affairs.

The economic, social and cultural success of the EU has been spoken about at great length and I agree with all those who said it was extraordinarily important for Irish women. Women's rights in Ireland were very modest when Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. Without the rights which were established through our membership of the EU, Irish women would not have made the progress that they did.

The European constitution could go further, particularly in the areas of health, education and research. Under the Lisbon Agenda, Europe is setting itself up as a prime location for research. Co-operation could possibly have been emphasised more within the various chapters. While the right to health care is enshrined, public health is promoted and the sharing of research is stressed, more rights could have been given to individuals across all of Europe, rather than treating them on a country-by-country basis. I know that improvements have been made for people who have residency in countries and people living in border areas but it could have gone much further. I am a great promoter of the Bologna process whereby third level education, mobility and establishment of degrees and third level diplomas are brought forward. However, I would have liked to have seen more developments in this area.

We should not worry about the military situation. In the wake of the tenth anniversary of the terrible massacre at Srebenica, how can any of us feel anything other than dismayed that Europe was not in a position to do more than it did? I am far more concerned about US soldiers travelling through Shannon Airport to fight in an illegal war in Iraq and the possibility that prisoners are being covertly taken through the airport as well.

We should not be too sanguine about the fact that many other people will vote "No" in referenda on the constitution before we must vote. I travelled through France the other day and saw a sign which stated "Vote no to Tony Blair's Europe". If there is as much confusion in France about that, I would be very careful about what they are saying about opinion polls there.

On my first visit to the European Parliament many years ago, I met a Member of the Parliament from a town in Germany which was just across the border from Strasbourg. I asked him whether the European Parliament was anything more than a talking shop. He asked me to wait so he could introduce me to a French colleague and then told me that their fathers had literally been shooting at each other across a local river during the Second World War. The image was so important that it never left me because the EU guarantees peace within its borders. The point made by Simon Coveney, MEP, is correct. How can we justify standing back and doing nothing when faced with conflicts? Have we not been reared to believe that evil will triumph if good people do nothing?

The EU has benefited us culturally and guaranteed our identity. However, it has not benefited us in other areas such as fishing rights agus is mór an náire dúinn nár dheineamar beart ar son na Gaoluinne. Theip orainn sa mhéid sin, agustáimid fós ag iarraidh an fód a sheasamh. Ní fheadar an bhfuil buaite againn.

On the other hand, as Senator Henry has noted, the EU has greatly benefited us on issues like labour rights, health and safety issues and equality for women. We would never have made the progress that we did without the EU. The EU has clearly benefited us economically and opened up a market that was never there before. It has reduced our dependence on the UK as most of our trade before our entry into the EEC was with the UK. The UK is still a very important trading partner but we now have access to the European market.

Mary Lou McDonald, MEP, trotted out the easy line about the special place of NATO and the problems of a federal Europe. If someone talks to me about a federal Europe, I ask him or her to define what he or she is talking about, to tell me the difference between a confederation and a federation, to tell me what he or she is worried about and to put neutrality in the context of ethics, commitment, honesty and fairness. The moment when I began to question my commitment to Irish neutrality more than at any other time was when I watched people being slaughtered in Kosovo while nobody did anything about it. We are supposed to believe that doing nothing was the right course of action. There were no ethical grounds for the position we took at that time. I believe in neutrality in a perfect world but if we see wrong being done, we should take action.

It is wrong to sit back and let NATO and the United States do what they have done twice in the Middle East and continue to do around the world. If a balance is not achieved in foreign policy, we will reap a poor reward down the line. We need to become involved in foreign policy, which should be carried out very slowly and correctly. My position on neutrality, which I have held for many years, is severely threatened by what I have seen around the world over the past ten or 15 years. These two things do not marry well. The way to deal with conflict is by democratic means through United Nations with a democratic mandate, which it does not have at the moment, and a foreign policy in Europe that is democratically arrived at and does not give a special place to NATO. We should move towards a confederation, which is quite different from a federation and would secure national and European boundaries.

With permission of the House, I would like to share my time with Senator Ulick Burke.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I would like to briefly reflect on this debate, which has been an excellent one for this House. I have gained a considerable amount from this debate in terms of the contributions from all colleagues in the European Parliament. Senator McDowell made a very important point when he asked why it was necessary to have a referendum when most people feel that that question is really a barometer of how people feel about the EU.

I understand the point he made, however, it is important that we ask the people to support the new constitutional treaty that will shortly be presented and all of the treaties that have gone before. Holding a referendum puts pressure on those of us in politics to explain the most important change in Europe and this country that we have witnessed in a generation, which is the establishment of the EU. It puts pressure on us to get out there and explain the message and campaign and canvass for it.

If established political parties learn any message from the defeat of the first Nice treaty, it is that they cannot take the electorate for granted. The Irish people cannot be taken for granted and we have a direct responsibility to campaign for something in which we believe. The defeat of the Nice treaty was useful because it obliged all of us to get out there and campaign in future referenda.

Probably the greatest curse in Europe is the march of neo-nationalism, be it Irish, British, French or German. We must always be on our guard against it. The great construction of the European project is keeping a lid on neo-nationalism and all that it represented in terms of the First and Second World Wars. The rise of the British Nationalist Party, Sinn Féin, Mr. Jean Marie Le Pen's party in France, Mr. Jörg Haider's party in Austria is an expression of this deadly neo-nationalism that we must confront. When these political parties make their neo-nationalist claims, they must be confronted.

The suggestion by Ms McDonald today that, by accepting this treaty, we are going down the road of a further militarised Europe is nonsense. Kofi Annan, when he initiated the reform procedure within the UN, said he expects regional autonomies such as the European Union to flex their muscles in the world and to do the job the UN cannot do. The reality is that, if we are serious about upholding UN law and the resolutions decided upon in New York, the EU and similar institutions must be the first people to uphold them. There is no point in having a collection of armies within the EU if we cannot uphold many of the resolutions that pass through the UN at various times. The notion that we can paddle our own canoe against what is happening in the rest of the world or within a region is nonsense and we must challenge it.

We have much to be proud of in western Europe in comparison with the United States of America. Fewer people are incarcerated in prisons in western Europe than throughout the US, by a ratio of approximately 10:1. We spend more on education and health in western Europe than does the US. We spend more on social security protection and have much better labour laws in terms of workers' rights. We have better environmental protections. How is this being brought about? It is a result of countries coming together to work in common cause and solidarity. This is the model we must explain to people when we argue why this treaty must be accepted.

God willing, my three and a half year old will start his first day in school in September 2006. In that school I would like to see a quick summary of Bunreacht na hÉireann — I am sure there is one already — as he and the other children look to see what are their rights. As children go through school, it is also right that they see a summary of the new European treaty. The notion that one can obtain rights from only one country or entity is nonsensical and dated. The concept of the EU is that there are multifaceted rights and different layers of rights which are in favour of citizens. When my child and other children commence their education, I want them to live in a world in which they see their rights and obligations written clearly, whether it is from an Irish perspective or as part of the EU. This is one way we could popularise the notion of the EU.

I welcome the MEPs to this debate, as it is an important platform for them to get across the constitution's message. The message could be hijacked, as it has been many times in the past, by emotive opposition in certain areas that would destroy the debate. I warn the Government not to be as complacent as it was before the first referendum on the Nice Treaty when it failed to get the message across. The result was the electorate's punishment of the Government of the day, although it is unfortunate that the decision must be seen in that light.

I concur with many Senators who pointed out it is not enough to send out leaflets and booklets on the constitution. The debate must be taken into the country to the electorate and the people must understand clearly what is on offer. For the first time, the electorate can see a clarity in this constitution that was not there to the same degree in any prior treaties in so far as we have the areas of national responsibility and European legal responsibility clearly outlined. Information is important and we have set in motion today the launch of the new campaign. When the referendum will be held is a decision for the Government. A platform such as this debate is important but we must congratulate RTE, as it has recently introduced through its political unit a programme about the European Parliament, in which we can see our MEPs and their contributions.

When is the programme on?

Once a month.

Mr. Eoin Ryan, MEP

On a Monday morning.

Monday morning?

Mr. Eoin Ryan, MEP

For insomniacs.

This is an important initiative on the part of RTE and we should welcome more of the like.

The Minister indicated his third reason for supporting the European constitution is that it would help make the EU more democratic and that the powers of national Parliaments would be enhanced considerably. They would have more power to intervene directly in the legislative process. I welcome this initiative because of what has been mentioned by other Senators, namely, the consequences of European directives. I would like our MEP colleagues to explain these consequences fully.

An area of great importance is the environment. Some of the directives that have been handed down are totally unsuited to our particular environment. Up until now we have been told we cannot interfere, that something is fait accompli. That is the end of the story. I hope that if, as a result of this constitution, we have greater input at national level to reverse some of these decisions or to ameliorate their effectiveness, the constitution would be welcome.

I thank the Senator and call on Deputy Mairead McGuinness, MEP.

She is not a Deputy.

Ms McGuinness, MEP

Apparently, I am not a Deputy yet. Mr. Coveney thanked the Members for the honour of speaking in the Seanad as it was his first time to be here. This is my first time to speak in either House and it is a particular honour for me. I am not sure I got the etiquette right but I hope I did. I am pleased to be in the House and apologise that I was not here earlier for the debate. Interestingly, I was speaking with Trócaire about many issues, including the European constitution, food policy and the millennium development goals.

For the sixth time this week I mentioned the constitution in a meeting. Whichever side one is on, the constitution will be won or lost in this manner. At every event we go to, it behoves us all to talk about the constitution and what it means to us. Either one is for it or against it. Despite that some people think no one is interested in this issue, others are incredibly interested if one engages with them and uses language that is not "European".

Ms McGuinness, MEP

Jargon kills debate. As a former journalist and someone who cut through much of the jargon, I believe we will destroy this debate unless we use the language we all use normally. Call it "pub talk" but use a language in which people understand what we are saying. I spoke with a large gathering of women at the ICA Meath federation and, by the end of the talk, they were engaged about the European Union and the constitution. While I have not taken down my political "L plates" yet, it strikes me as extraordinary that so many people know so little about the EU except the bad bits, which are all we talk about. Mr. Coveney could not have put it better.

If one had sat in the European Parliament in Strasbourg last week, one would have cried as Members recalled what Europe meant to them. We are cosy over here. We did not feel the pain of the Second World War. If we had, we would think differently and, because they sadden me, I urge everyone to watch the pictures from the war. I make my children do so.

In the early days when I looked at Strasbourg, the people there and the "Tower of Babel", as an impatient journalist I was inclined to say, "Oh God, is there ever going to be a conclusion". In his wisdom, Gay Mitchell said,"This beats war". I quote him at every opportunity because it does beat war. Anyone who is against this constitution must be careful about what they say because I value the European Union deeply. The Union has been great for Ireland, certainly for women, and has been good for my children, who I want to know and love Europe just as I do. I want to have a real debate. This is a great opportunity for us to get together and tease out the issues. It troubled me on Monday night when the big issue among a gathering of very well informed people was abortion and euthanasia and that people thought the constitution would impose either on this nation. It will not. Whatever people bring up in regard to the constitution, all I ask is that they speak the truth.

I will not take up six minutes because we get just two minutes in the European Parliament. Brevity is the soul of wit, so let us live with it.

For the record, my understanding is that the proper designation for Members of the European Parliament is "Deputy".

I thank Senators and Members of the European Parliament for their contributions here today. As Chairman of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution in the last Dáil, I am aware its Members were very anxious to see Seanad Éireann play a close role in monitoring developments in the European Union. One of our recommendations was that the Seanad should engage in more intensive scrutiny of European business and that Members of the European Parliament should in some sense be associated with the work of this House. I welcome this debate, which is the first time there has been a plenary attendance by Members of the European Parliament at a Seanad debate. It is a good and welcome development.

Mary Lou McDonald, MEP, referred to the fact that there could be representation in Seanad Éireann from all the Members of the European Parliament on this island. This matter was addressed in the all-party committee. However, until the provisional movement faces up to its responsibilities under the Good Friday Agreement, that will not be possible. No one more than I would like to see that happen. It would be marvellous if Members of the European Parliament throughout the island associated themselves with the work of the House. I would support this in the context of European affairs but, regrettably, it is something which will have to wait for the full realisation of the guidelines and norms set down in the Belfast Agreement. It is very important that both the Belfast Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement are implemented so that this can take place.

The common destiny of Ireland in Europe is also an important subject. There will be a referendum in Northern Ireland as well as in this part of Ireland on this issue. Many member states are holding referendums, therefore, there will be a common Irish debate on the subject. If those who have responsibilities under the Good Friday Agreement faced up to their responsibilities, it would be possible to have that type of debate in this House.

The constitutional position was outlined by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, when he opened this debate. He made the point that constitutionally the situation will remain the same but major treaty change will have to be negotiated through an Intergovernmental Conference. If any treaty goes outside the scope and objectives of the current treaties, Ireland must hold a referendum. If a change does not go outside the scope and objectives of the treaties, no referendum will be required. The Government has been prepared to amend the Bill to avoid unnecessary controversy over this point. We will have to wait and see the Government's final proposal, but whether any treaty relating to the European Union goes beyond the scope of what our Constitution permits is a moot point.

I had doubts as to whether the Nice Treaty arrangement should have been put to the people. However, a document as fundamental in its description as a treaty to establish a constitution for Europe is something that should be submitted to the people. Senator Ulick Burke said that we cannot take the people for granted, of which we are all well aware since the first Nice referendum. In considering this, we must consider the fact that it is a treaty. While people like to call it a constitution, it is a treaty establishing a constitution. Like all treaties, there was a meeting of persons from different sovereign states. We all know the history of the convention and the subsequent discussions between the parties. It was at the final stages of the Irish Presidency last June that the various member states were brought into the room by the Taoiseach to do some horse trading, which the treaty reflects. We should not try to deceive the people on this issue. The treaty is a compromise between the different member states.

A moment in time arises when a group of representatives of different sovereign states, who have their own priorities and requirements, are gathered in a room. To try to achieve a consensus and get an agreement between a group of states in that position is a very difficult exercise in practical politics. The exercise was performed and it is important that people understand this is the fruit of that particular labour.

If one is considering any particular question, whether the competences of the Union, the values the document enshrines or the position of the Union in external relations and security, the document is a practical compromise embodied in a treaty. It is not Europe from first principles so to speak. Many Senators and Deputies would have views about how Europe could be constructed from first principles. However, it is impossible for a gathering of what previously comprised 15 sovereign states, now 25 sovereign states, to arrive at a description of Europe from first principles in the way the founding fathers of the United States were able to do when they formulated their constitution at the end of 18th century. They were inspired by enlightenment ideals. Not having expelled a colonial occupying power, they were able to apply these great enlightenment ideals to construct a constitution from first principles. While we may like to do so, the European project is so well entrenched, and has been in progress so solidly since 1945, with greater intensity from 1958, 1973 and 1992, that it is impossible for this train to be derailed suddenly and put onto an entirely new track.

This treaty is not the result of that type of exercise. The exercise in question here involved the leaders of Europe gathering and doing their best to produce a document that will chart the Europe for the immediate future. If we examine that document, our diplomats and political leaders had certain key diplomatic objectives going into the negotiations, as had the representatives of the other states, and, by and large, we secured our objectives.

There is no great threat in this particular treaty. It is a practical document which serves to consolidate the European legal norms. It makes these clear for citizens in a far more accessible form. It makes clear the rights and responsibilities of citizens and the competences of the Union and the member states, which is very valuable. We must move away from the first principles type of discussions we have had in most referendums since 1973 where we argue whether it would be a super power, a military threat or a threat to our religious values. It is none of these things. It is a practical document, designed to produce a better Europe for the future. The practical task is to get that message across to the people in the referendum.

On behalf of the Government, I welcome the fact that Seanad Éireann had this valuable debate. Clearly we will have many more such debates in the months ahead.

I thank in particular the MEPs who remained all day in the House, which was remarkable. I hope they will return on a future occasion.

Sitting suspended at 4.50 p.m. and resumed at 5 p.m.
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