The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 19, motion 25. No. 1, Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1 p.m.; No. 2, Railway Safety Bill 2001 — Committee Stage, to be taken at 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.; and No. 19, motion 25, to be taken at 5 p.m. until 7 p.m. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Order of Business.
It is only a matter of time before innocent bystanders are shot in Dublin as a result of the ongoing gangland feuding that is taking place in this city. I know this matter was raised yesterday by Senators McCarthy, Finucane and others. We need to debate the matter today. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that, following the conclusion of No. 1, we take statements on the upsurge of gangland killings on the streets of Dublin. This bloodletting must stop.
We all saw the response of the State following the murder of Veronica Guerin some years ago. Unprecedented new laws were put in place. The gangs were closed down. They went out of business and fled. However, new more amoral younger vicious thugs have taken their place. The Government and specifically the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform must respond to this crisis.
Last night in Clontarf on a busy road where pedestrians and motorists go by on a second-by-second basis a killing took place. In my constituency two nights ago two men were shot in a car in the middle of a quiet housing estate. We must take action. Specifically, a new offence of membership of a criminal gang must be put into statute law to give extra protection to the Garda and close down these gangs. I ask that the Government considers the matter.
On a separate matter, the House needs to debate at the earliest possible time the controversy that surrounds the latest appointment of Mr. McSweeney by the Government. He was the original scientific adviser to the Government, a post that was filled without interview and without open invitation to other interested parties. He was plucked from another job and now we discover that because of a question over his qualifications, the Government has given him another job. We need to debate this matter. This shows gross Government incompetence at the highest level. This matter needs to be debated urgently.
I wish to raise a matter that affects innocent bystanders. It is a matter I and other Senators have repeatedly raised at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs repeatedly over the past few months but it has been confirmed today, namely, the admission by the United States authorities that it has been using napalm and white phosphorous in the bombing of cities like Falluja. This is chemical warfare. It is a very serious international war crime that had been previously denied by the United States. The operation is called "Shake and Bake". That is an extraordinary way to describe the fate of human beings, including civilians.
We also learn today that 170 people have been discovered in conditions of great distress in the basement of a security Ministry building in Baghdad. Once again, I and others have drawn attention to this in recent months. If we here in Dublin knew about these atrocities how is it that the American authorities pose as being surprised about it? This Administration has defended the use of torture, has outsourced torture and a plane which in the past has been used for this purpose has passed through Shannon Airport. There has been no investigation by the Irish authorities. If anybody wants to know more about this I suggest they look at a website and a video called, Falluja: The Hidden Massacre.
These atrocities have been committed with silence and complicity because of the utter lack of journalistic objectivity due to the embedding of reporters in Iraq. We must now protest. On foot of this evidence, which is acknowledged and has now been admitted, a serious war crime has been committed. I ask that the Leader would urge the Government to protest to the American authorities in the name of humanity.
In the place where I occasionally work, if somebody claims to have a PhD, we check it out properly. We are able to distinguish between real PhDs and pretend PhDs. I have worked there for almost 30 years and we have never recruited somebody who did not have a real PhD. We manage that fairly well, as does every other institute of technology and university in the country.
In the Cork Institute of Technology, or in any other institute of technology, we would not put somebody in charge of research who did not have a proper PhD, yet we have put somebody in charge of research in a Department who has apparently bought a PhD. It is a gross insult to all the people who are trying to build up the research profile of this country and it is another cop-out.
The last insult we in the education sector had to suffer was that a person who was deemed unfit to run the Department of Health and Children was put in charge of higher education. I find all of this rather peculiar. It is a classic case of Ireland, the country where nobody is accountable for anything.
I second Senator Brian Hayes's amendment to the Order of Business. When I was involved in independent politics in the 1980s, one could not go to a meeting at which there were four people which had anything to do with Northern Ireland without at least as many members of the Special Branch being there to watch who was there and to make sure nothing happened. I have not been able to get any explanation as to why the resources that were correctly available then to deal with subversive organisations are not available now to deal with criminal gangs of whom people are at this stage genuinely terrified.
Hear, hear.
Everybody apparently knows these people. It appears that every crime journalist can name all of these people. Either we will not give our police force sufficient resources or we do not have the will to give the same attention to the movement of these people that was correctly given to people who were even suspected of having connections with the Provisional IRA.
Could we have a debate at some stage on the property boom in this country, in particular on the impact it is having on people's ability to find somewhere to live? What prompts me to make this call is a remark attributed to the founder of the Progressive Democrats on the day of its great birthday party. I wish them a happy birthday.
When they are 21 next year they will get the key of the door.
Was that the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, by any chance?
Senator Ryan should be allowed to speak without interruption.
That is a story for another day. The founding leader said that people were still investing enormous amounts of money in property which he described as, "the least efficient form of investment". Can somebody explain to me why the Progressive Democrats vigorously supported a reduction in capital gains tax which stimulated this "least efficient form of investment"?
We were speaking about tax breaks.
Order, please.
Can I ask for a debate on the property market which the Central Bank and all other commentators think poses the greatest risk to the future of the economy?
There is a direct link between the recent gangland murders and the drugs trade. It is generally accepted that a turf war is taking place for territory and markets. Given that almost one tonne of cannabis was seized yesterday beside the Phoenix Park worth many millions of euro, it is no surprise that this is happening. I agree that it is only a matter of time before some innocent person is killed in this war. I call for a debate on the drugs trade in general but also the link between the drugs trade and gun crime, which is a major issue. I also call for a debate on what measures we can take to combat this problem.
We have all become accustomed to hearing various Ministers using such terms in the course of their speeches as "rolling out" and "going forward". These phrases might mean something but in this instance it is a total contradiction of what they are actually doing. Earlier this year, 1,522 national schools were without access to the National Educational Psychological Service. At the end of October this year, the number of national schools without this service had increased to 1,663. An additional 141 national schools had lost that service. This has happened under a Minister who frequently declared in the past, particularly around this time last year when we were debating the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, that special needs would be a priority during her tenure as Minister for Education and Science. The sad fact is that the most vulnerable in our education system are being denied a service.
Hear, hear.
Is the Senator seeking a debate?
I am. I will finish on this point. Things are getting worse. We are told that recruitment will have to be subject to the availability of resources and the Government policy on public service numbers. What we can take from that is that we will get a worse service for those who are in greatest need in the education system. The Minister for Education and Science should come to the House to clearly indicate if she has a policy because, based on these figures, I do not believe that is the case.
I support the call made by Senator Dardis last week for a debate on the world trade talks, which should take place by next week at the latest. On that subject, I compliment the Minister for Agriculture and Food on her announcement of grant aid for anaerobic digesters. It is something I have been referring to for some time. It is the way forward, particularly in regard to the nitrates directive but it will also be of benefit in terms of energy generation given the problems with energy and fuel costs. I acknowledge the Minister's judicious forward planning in this proposed development, which I welcome. I am glad she has taken it on board. The matter will come under the remit of three Departments and the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources will also be involved.
I support Senator Norris's proposal that we ask the Government to protest at once about the use of white phosphorous in Iraq. All of us remember the pictures of children in Vietnam fleeing with dreadful burns on their bodies. If someone had been able to be in Falluja the day these dreadful weapons were used, I am sure we would have seen pictures such as those taken in Vietnam.
I also support the call from Senators Brian Hayes and Ryan for a debate on the lack of scrutiny of those who claim to have degrees which they do not have. I raised this issue during the debate on the Health and Social Care Professionals Bill 2004 because we were an early signatory to the Bologna Declaration whereby there is to be a reciprocation of standards of degrees in Europe and, indeed, elsewhere. Our degrees will be denigrated if we do not carefully address this issue. I hope we can have a debate on this issue in the near future.
Many Senators wish to speak but I will not be able to accommodate all of them. I will try to accommodate those I cannot call today on tomorrow's Order of Business.
I support the call for a debate on Iraq, the use of chemical weapons and chemical warfare. I refer to a campaign which has been ongoing for some time in NUI, Galway. I understand there is still a compulsory Irish requirement on those applying for certain professorships in the college and that legislation is on the Dáil Order Paper. Will the Leader inquire as to whether the legislation could be taken as soon as possible because the requirement militates against NUI, Galway, recruiting personnel if they must be proficient in the Irish language? The legislation should be taken quickly in the Dáil and the Seanad. As I said, this campaign by NUI, Galway, has been ongoing for many years.
The drugs problem is not only confined to Dublin. Since the Westies gang was broken up in Dublin, Carlow has seen a very significant increase in the amount of drugs in the county and in violence. There was a shooting in Carlow approximately a year ago which was directly related to drugs. We should widen the debate to include the entire country.
The Padraig Nally case was discussed yesterday. It has raised the issue of the need for Travellers to face up to problems within their community. There is a strong connection between the drugs trade and some Travellers, including in Carlow, and we should have a debate on that issue. If we want equality, we should not be afraid to ask the hard questions. It is time for the Traveller community to face up to its responsibilities and that the leadership of that community took on the minority therein who are very involved in the drugs trade.
I do not share the hypnotic effect a PhD seems to have on most Members of this House. I suspect that if I had discovered Mr. McSweeney did not have a PhD, I would have promoted him rather than seen to it that he lost his job. I do not really understand this great fascination that the guy should or should not have a PhD if he is qualified for the job.
He claimed to have one.
If he did not have one, it is even better.
Does Senator Ross have a question on the Order of Business? PhD qualifications are not appropriate to the Order of Business.
We will get Senator Ross an honorary degree from the NUI.
I support Senator Ryan's call for a debate on the property market which has two very serious aspects. The first is that the construction industry is a pillar of the boom in the economy——
And of Fianna Fáil.
——and of Fianna Fáil. It would be very relevant to any debate on the economy if we debated the construction industry. The other aspect might be closer to Senator Ryan's heart than to many others in this House. That is not a patronising remark about members of the Labour Party. While most of us in this House are well enough off to own our own homes, the property boom is having an appalling social effect on those who cannot get on the property ladder. It is time this House, particularly the Fianna Fáil side, recognised that property has more purposes than pure profit. It also has a purpose in housing people who cannot afford to put down the first deposit to get them on that ladder.
I support Senator Callanan's compliments to the Minister for Agriculture and Food. Since we are on the subject, perhaps we could ask the Minister to outline the consequences of the single payment, especially for smaller farmers. Members will be aware that since the single payment came into operation, there has been a serious erosion of the incomes of many small farmers. There are also indications that a large number of farmers will leave agriculture in the next few years. It is an opportune time for the Minister to come to the House so that we can discuss the consequences of the single payment for small farmers, in particular, whose incomes are being seriously eroded because of the new system.
I support the request by Senators Callanan and Daly for a discussion on the WTO round which would be appropriate. If at all possible, will the Leader include in that necessary dialogue an urgent debate on the future of the sugar industry? We touched on this issue previously but the next round of dialogue between Ministers and the Commission on the future of the sugar industry will take place next week. As we know, the current proposals, if implemented, will not simply damage but will wipe out the sugar industry which is a vital national industry. It will be the first time in the history of the EU that a single policy decision taken in Brussels will wipe out an entire industry. If at all possible, could we have statements tomorrow in advance of next week's talks? We are talking about a vital national industry living on a knife-edge. We must express our support for the Minister as she enters further negotiations next week.
I recognise the need for a debate on gangland crime but there is an onus on us as politicians not to interfere too much with the valuable work being carried out by the Garda Síochána. I listened to Paul Williams on Pat Kenny's radio programme this morning and his view was that the Opposition parties would be better served if they did not jump up and down each time an issue arises.
Is the Senator calling for a debate?
Yes.
Job sharing with the Sunday World.
Those sentiments should be borne in mind when we have that debate.
I support Senator Brian Hayes's call for a debate on the latest and 18th gangland murder. It is only a matter of time before an innocent bystander is killed as a result of getting caught up in the crossfire. Last night's killing took place across the road from a pub outside which people were standing smoking, as they must. It is a miracle nobody else was killed. It is shocking to think that nearly every criminal involved in the drugs trade has a machine gun. When they go about their work, they bring their machine guns with them and they are willing, ready and able to use them at any time.
There will be a debate.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has said he will provide additional resources for the Garda Síochána, which I welcome. However, it is a little late for him to say at this stage that he will give it additional resources, which have been needed for many years.
I support the call for a debate on affordable housing. I note from Senator Ryan's references to capital gains tax that there is still disagreement on what level of capital gains tax should be levied on the pot at the end of the rainbow.
What about the Hanly report?
There is a lot of disagreement on the Government side also.
What is the status of the Hanly report?
Does the Senator have a question?
Yes. Performing artists have concerns that the copyright laws should be observed. Will parties who use songs without obtaining permission pay appropriate financial reparations?
Send in the clowns.
Order, please.
I join with Senator Brian Hayes and others who have requested a debate on gangland crime. The situation has become worse since last evening.
I agree with Senators who have raised the issue of agriculture. I have been seeking a debate on the WTO talks for over a month, so perhaps we could have such a debate in the near future. I am glad to see that some Fianna Fáil Senators appear to have found their tongues on this matter. The talks are vital to the future of agriculture in this country. Yesterday, a report was published which outlined the fact that the number of full-time farmers will drop from 40,000 to 10,000. That is a startling statistic. It would be useful to include in the debate the broader question of the future of Irish agriculture.
Will the Leader arrange for a debate on performing artists? The Minister for Social and Family Affairs should attend the House for such a debate. According to recent newspaper reports, performing artists who are out of work must present themselves for work. In many cases they have to undertake work other than theatrical or other work related to their profession. As a result they do not receive social welfare payments and cannot progress in their chosen area of endeavour. In the context of tax exemptions for artists and writers, and the creation of Aosdána, those in the theatrical profession should be allowed to pursue their vocation without having to go before inspectors who will deny them social welfare payments unless they undertake work other than that which they have been trained to do.
I wish to add my voice to the calls for a debate on crime. The situation is becoming more dangerous by the day. Last night, we saw another horrible example of the state of lawlessness in this country.
My second point concerns health, but I feel like a Fianna Fáil Senator raising issues such as crime and health, which concern Departments headed by Progressive Democrats Ministers.
The Senator should stick to the Order of Business.
It used to be said that an apple a day keeps the doctor away. Could we get a box of apples delivered to the Cabinet table, for example, and keep Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats out of Government Buildings?
That is not an issue for the Order of Business.
Sadly, Senator Brian Hayes's remarks on gangland crime are all too accurate. As he said, a new offence of membership of a criminal gang needs to be created. The ability of these dying wasps to sting is still all too deadly.
Does the Senator have a question?
I do. Has Operation Anvil been dropped or has it lapsed? If so, is it being revived and do gardaí have full confidence in it? Something is wrong and I look forward to hearing the Leader's response on this issue. I fully support Senator Brian Hayes's request for a debate on crime.
I support the calls for a debate on the WTO talks. It would be important for us to have such a debate in the House. Will the Leader schedule time for a debate on class sizes, specifically in primary schools? The INTO is currently running a campaign, which will be coming to every constituency, on the Government's commitment that all children under nine years of age will be in classes of no more than 20. The commitment has not been honoured, however, and it does not appear that it will be. All over the country children are in classes of over 30, some in the high 30s. The situation is unacceptable, so I ask the Leader to schedule a debate on that matter as soon as possible.
I support the call by Senator Brian Hayes for a debate on crime. It is important to put certain matters on the record. You will recall, a Chathaoirligh, that some years ago I spoke at length about the murder of Mr. Brian Fitzgerald in Limerick. I said then that it was a turning point, so it is important to put on the record the extraordinarily good work the Garda Síochána is doing there. The force has cracked that particular murder case, with the confession yesterday and the arrest in Amsterdam. It would be useful to have the same tactics applied in the Dublin area. That is what Senator Brian Hayes is seeking.
On a separate matter, if any other country, apart from the United States, had used the weaponry that we now know was used by the US army in Iraq, there would be an outcry from Washington.
Hear, hear.
It is appalling and we need to express our displeasure about it at this stage. I support the point raised by Senator Norris on that issue.
Senator Brian Hayes raised the issue of crime in Dublin and he proposed an amendment to the Order of Business that the House should debate the matter after we have dealt with the Social Welfare Consolidation Bill. I also wish we could have such a debate, but I have no guarantee that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, is waiting for a call from me to attend this House. How could I? I am quite sure he is heavily engaged in something.
Not fighting crime.
He is on radio shows.
Order, please
I sit here like a demure woman while other Senators talk, but the minute I open my mouth they all leap up.
Call in Donie.
The Leader without interruption.
Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I hope to be able to schedule a debate on that matter next week, but I cannot race out and get a Minister today.
The Senator also sought a debate concerning the Government's scientific advisor, Mr. McSweeney. It would be a good issue for an Adjournment debate because it is about one focused point. I understand that Mr. McSweeney's primary degrees are excellent qualifications and that he is highly regarded in that way. There is no doubt, however, that the matter of his PhD is unfortunate. It would be a good item for an Adjournment debate.
Senator Norris referred to the fact that the United States has owned up quite breezily and in a cavalier fashion to the use of chemical warfare. It is quite amazing when we all know the damage chemicals can do to people. The US army has used them in the bombing of Falluja. The term used for this weapon was "shake and bake", but just imagine talking about people in that fashion. The Senator said the Government should protest directly to the United States on its use of such weaponry and he also referred to the use of Shannon Airport by US aeroplanes.
Senator Ryan said that Cork Institute of Technology would never fail to ascertain the qualifications of a PhD applicant and would always check out the details. He also formally seconded Senator Brian Hayes's amendment to the Order of Business. In addition, he sought a debate on the property boom. I understand from the Deputy Leader that the remark was made in the context that property is the least efficient form of investment.
Why are we encouraging it?
The remark was made in the context of the many coastal developments that have occurred as a result of tax breaks.
Senator Brady spoke about the turf war over drugs, which is what this upsurge in violence is about. He sought a debate on the drugs trade in general.
I agree with what Senator Ulick Burke said about the terms "rolling out" and "going forward" because they do not mean anything.
I would not go into that space.
It is better not to do so.
Is it a game of Twister?
There are 1,633 schools without access to psychological services. The Senator wants the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House for a debate on services for those with special needs.
Senator Callanan wants a debate on the World Trade Organisation and a general debate on agriculture. He had a word of praise too for the Minister for Agriculture and Food.
Senator Henry protested at the use of chemical weapons in Iraq. She also mentioned the lack of scrutiny and the standardisation of degrees. Senator Kitt spoke too about the use of chemical weapons in Iraq. Referring to the NUIG debate on compulsory Irish for qualifications, he said Irish is a working language.
Senator Browne called for a debate on drug abuse and the drugs trade in general. He also said that some Travellers need to face up to hard facts within their communities.
Senator Ross is not a bit impressed by PhDs, whether real or false. He introduced a note of common sense to this matter. He asked for a debate on the construction industry, saying that the property boom has had an appalling effect on those who seek metaphorically to get a foot on the property ladder.
Senator Daly wants a debate on agriculture, particularly in view of the recent report. Senator Bradford also wants a debate on the World Trade Organisation in respect of the sugar industry and the important dialogue on that topic in Brussels this week and next.
Senator Feeney wants a debate on gangland murders and Senator Terry spoke about the danger they pose for innocent bystanders. There are now more gardaí than there were during the height of the trouble in 1995 to 1996.
There are twice as many killings.
What about poor Veronica Guerin? She died on Fine Gael's watch.
Senator Mansergh wants a debate on affordable housing. He asked whether the capital gains tax division between the partners in the rainbow coalition has been sorted out. I do not think so.
That is really relevant to the Order of Business.
It is just as relevant as the issues Senator Ryan raises.
Any matter raised by any Member is relevant. It is quite elitist to say that one Senator's matter is more important than another's. I hate the attitude that one person's point is more important than that of someone else.
Senator John Paul Phelan has sought a debate on agriculture and the World Trade Organisation for some time. We will try to arrange that for next week. Senator Mooney mentioned the negative aspects of the social welfare system for those in the theatrical profession who want to receive welfare but do not get a sympathetic hearing from the Department of Social and Family Affairs.
Senator McCarthy asked for an apple for the Cabinet to keep the Progressive Democrats and the Labour Party out.
I said it was to keep out the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil.
There are so many potential couplings arranged now that one does not know where one is. It is very amorous.
The Leader saw the future.
In the words of Shakespeare, "let copulation thrive".
Potential couplings are very exciting.
Senator Coghlan mentioned the status of the new offence proposed by Senator Brian Hayes. There he is — I thought he had gone, excuse me.
I would never deliberately be discourteous to the Leader.
I know the Senator would not. He asked about the status of Operation Anvil. I asked that question yesterday. It is alive and working.
Senator O'Meara asked for a debate on the World Trade Organisation. She also mentioned class sizes. Hopefully, the coming budget will underline the commitment to a class of 20 for children under the age of nine. That is in the joint Government statement.
Senator O'Toole called for a debate on crime and in so doing he praised the recent extraordinary work of gardaí. That should be noted. There is no point in everyone banging away and giving out about them. I thank the Senator for his comment.
Senator Brian Hayes has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the upsurge in gangland killings in Dublin be taken after No. 1."
Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes.
Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 31.
Tá
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, Fergal.
- Burke, Paddy.
- Burke, Ulick.
- Coghlan, Paul.
- Cummins, Maurice.
- Feighan, Frank.
- Hayes, Brian.
- Hayes, Maurice.
- Henry, Mary.
- McCarthy, Michael.
- Norris, David.
- O’Meara, Kathleen.
- O’Toole, Joe.
- Phelan, John.
- Ross, Shane.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Terry, Sheila.
- Tuffy, Joanna.
Níl
- Brady, Cyprian.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Callanan, Peter.
- Cox, Margaret.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Dardis, John.
- Dooley, Timmy.
- Feeney, Geraldine.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Glynn, Camillus.
- Hanafin, John.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kett, Tony.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lydon, Donal J.
- MacSharry, Marc.
- Mansergh, Martin.
- Mooney, Paschal C.
- Morrissey, Tom.
- Moylan, Pat.
- Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
- O’Brien, Francis.
- O’Rourke, Mary.
- Ormonde, Ann.
- Phelan, Kieran.
- Scanlon, Eamon.
- Walsh, Jim.
- Walsh, Kate.
- White, Mary M.
- Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators U. Burke and Cummins; Níl, Senators Dardis and Moylan.
Amendment declared lost.
Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to", put and declared carried.