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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 May 2006

Vol. 183 No. 15

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the Joint Committee on European Affairs Report on Migration, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements.

The Leader of the House will be aware, more than any other Member, of the exacting standards set out for officeholders in respect of records of official meetings. Section 2.2.6 of the guidelines for officeholders refers specifically to the question of having officials and notetakers in attendance at a meeting a Minister would have with a third party. Will the Leader care to comment, as a distinguished former Minister who served in various Departments in various Governments——

I will not fall for that but go on.

——on the fact that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform had a meeting on 11 June 2005 with a private investigator? It is not clear whether a notetaker or an official was present at that meeting but will she comment on whether it is a clear material breach of the code for a Minister to attend such a meeting without a notetaker or official present?

Will she further agree that it was not appropriate for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to meet with such a person, given that the person could well be, if he is not already, a material witness at the Morris tribunal? Will she further agree with me that given that this was only a few days before a significant debate in the other House on the Morris tribunal, for which the Minister has direct ministerial responsibility to both Houses of the Oireachtas, that it was also inappropriate——

Is the Senator calling for a debate on this matter?

I seek the view of the Leader of the House as to whether it was a clear breach of the ministerial code. That is my question and I would be interested to hear the Leader's reply.

On a second matter, Senator Quinn had the courage some weeks ago to raise the controversial issue of nuclear energy in this country. He was shot down by some Senators on both sides of the House but the point he raised is important.

The Government has given a clear commitment that we should have an interconnector between Britain and Ireland as a means of supplementing our energy sources in the future. However, if and when that interconnector is in place, as I understand it the Government has yet to decide whether it would accept energy from the United Kingdom, 25% of which is derived from nuclear power.

We now have a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem. We do not want nuclear energy. We rightly believe it to be dirty but we are prepared to accept nuclear energy from another country once it supplements our energy supply and we are prepared to link into a European grid, 70% of which is powered by nuclear energy.

If we are honest about this issue, the point Senator Quinn raised is central to this debate. If we are in favour of the interconnector, that is fine, but part and parcel of that is accepting energy, 25% of which could be derived from nuclear technology. We must get our thinking straight on this issue. I want people to go on the record in regard to it. There is an opportunity for a significant debate with the Minister with responsibility for energy on the question of an interconnector to determine the exact position of the Government on the question of nuclear energy.

I understand Senator Quinn will give the House an opportunity to discuss that matter on Private Members' business next week.

I raised a related matter in the House on a number of occasions, namely, the question of where we stand on renewable energy. A man who was far too bright to be retained in the public service, Eddie O'Connor, has put forward a clear proposal for a linked series of windfarms from the Baltic to the Mediterranean. It is the most creative and progressive proposal to deal with wind energy I have seen. Using more than the regular 150 km or 200 km length of typical weatherfront would provide us with a constant stream of energy, as there would be wind on one end if there was none on the other. Storms in the Baltic might be creating energy while there was no wind in the Mediterranean. Linking them and Ireland would deal with the issue of the non-uniformity of wind energy.

Will the Government explain where it stands on the EU's consideration of Airtricity's proposal? It is far too progressive, creative and imaginative for Europe to jump on, but I hope the Government will recognise that the man who could have turned Bord na Móna around but was sacked by the State more than ten years ago for invalid reasons has a significant contribution to make to the matters raised by Senators Brian Hayes and Quinn.

A matter that has been often raised, including by Mr. Maurice Manning, the former leader of Fine Gael in the House, Senator Brian Hayes and the Leader, is the press council and actions against the press. A story culminated yesterday. Two years ago, the story of a County Roscommon footballer allegedly playing snooker in the nude gave the country a laugh but undoubtedly damaged his business. He has needed to wait two years to prove his case, to the incalculable damage to his business, his family and himself. He endured much pressure before The Sun conceded it was wrong and paid him a significant amount of money.

Will the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform inform the House where the State stands on defamation laws and all that relates to them? This matter raises the question of whether there is a case for having an investigatory group within the press council to whom a person could bring a grievance against the media. It could make the case to the newspaper in question after concluding something was an unfair comment. Most people are afraid to go to court due to the costs, pressure and descriptive prose that will subsequently appear in the media. We need to make it easy for people to find justice.

A number of days ago, a mobile telephone interrupted while I was speaking. I made it clear to the Leas-Chathaoirleach that the telephone was not mine, but it was. I found out that it had a fault. I apologise to the House.

I love to see Senator O'Toole in his apologetic mode.

There is no chance of that with Senator Ryan.

He should try it sometime.

I am naturally humble.

He has much to be humble about.

That is a bit old. First, I must apologise to the House.

I will need to think of something.

It is a virus.

Instead of leaving it to land on everyone's lap, I should have done my colleagues the courtesy of telling them the Labour Party is publishing a Bill. I am speaking about the genealogy and heraldry Bill and would be happy to arrange a briefing during the coming weeks for anyone who is interested, courtesy of the Genealogical Society of Ireland, at the insistence of which we will publish the Bill. It has legitimate concerns. This matter is a classic example of something that is important but not urgent and can, therefore, be left off political agendas.

Hear, hear.

I agree with my colleagues about the need for a broad debate on energy. On energy supply, one of the critical issues for ordinary people is the price they are paying. I have received a number of allegations that every time Bord Gáis increases gas prices because of increased wholesale gas costs, the standing charge increases proportionately. I can understand that Bord Gáis needs to increase the price of gas because of the price at which it buys gas, but I cannot understand why the entirely unconnected standing charge increases proportionately. Attaching a 40% increase in standing charges is in the territory of a clever rip-off, as it has nothing to do with the wholesale price of gas. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this issue?

Of more immediate concern are the statements in this morning's media that even after improvements, Ireland has some of the lowest levels of maternity benefits. Extraordinarily, the European countries at the top of the world competitiveness league and ahead of us are those with the best maternity benefits. The argument made by employer groups and the Department of Finance that extending maternity benefits would undermine our competitiveness is contradicted by the facts. While it seems too soon after discussions in recent years, I would like a debate on the maternity benefits package. We are underproviding for those who experience difficulties in combining their work and family lives. It is our job as legislators to deal with this matter and I ask that the Leader arrange a debate.

Previously, I told the Leader that people can no longer make intelligent decisions about what they purchase from abroad irrespective of their disapproval of certain Governments. For example, textiles no longer carry country of origin markings. Yesterday, my friend and colleague from Cork, Deputy Coveney, MEP, raised the issue of slave labour camps in China and called for a boycott of its produce. I would be happy to do so but the country of origin will not be marked on the produce.

I do not understand how this has happened. If I travel to the United States, everything I buy carries country of origin markings, but the European Union has decided to make this impossible. The Minister of State responsible for this matter has informed me that there is a European problem but my colleague in the European Parliament, Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, said there is not. Will the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment address the House on fair trade and the capacity of consumers to influence the behaviour of multinationals in terms of minimum labour standards in developing countries? It is an extremely important issue. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this matter?

Hear, hear.

While it is desirable to have as many ministerial meetings minuted as possible, taoisigh and Ministers of all parties had informal meetings without notetakers. It would have been impossible for them to carry on their business if this had not been allowed.

As a country, we have benefited from the euro in terms of lower interest rates, an absence of exchange rate speculation and sheer convenience when travelling. We could debate the Minister for Finance's consideration of the applications of some of the Baltic countries to join the euro in January 2007, in particular Lithuania. There is a difficulty about the inflation rate being 0.1% above the limit. We all remember that Italy and Belgium joined the euro with considerable public debts of more than 100% of GDP when they should have been 60%. I hope the latitude shown to a number of older EU states will be shown to the Baltic countries and that Ireland will be on the side that does not adopt too rigid an attitude.

I wish to clarify a matter debated without conclusion on yesterday's Order of Business. I checked the record of Report Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill 2005, Volume No. 180, column No. 2190 of 28 June 2005.

The Fine Gael Party is correct in suggesting, as the Minister stated himself, that he had originally provided for a 12-month moratorium between the Bill being brought into effect and the possibility of a reserve being created. However, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe argued that the proposal was surplus to requirements——

Did he say that in this House?

On a point of order——

Senator Mansergh——

I was about to finish my point.

We cannot have a rehash of yesterday's Order of Business today.

On a point of order——

We cannot have this.

I am sorry, a Leas-Chathaoirligh——

I will not tolerate a rehash of yesterday's Order of Business.

Reading from prepared notes——

They are not prepared notes.

I know the Senator is relatively new to the House, but the long-standing precedent that has not been——

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe was the person responsible and he agreed to the delay——

He is not even present to defend himself.

The Fine Gael Party——

Senator Hayes, Senator Mansergh has the floor, but I will not tolerate——

—— suggested that the moratorium should be——

Senator Mansergh, please.

I know the Senator is new to this House. That is what makes it difficult.

Senator Mansergh.

——that is why the reserve force is being brought in correctly.

Thank you Senator. I call Senator Coghlan.

That was helpful.

The House is not normally so lively on a Thursday morning.

The Fine Gael Senators do not like it, do they?

I strongly support my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, in his request for clarification from the Leader regarding the appropriateness or otherwise of a Minister meeting someone who is a witness or is due to be a witness before a tribunal. I am aware that Ministers are subject to somewhat more strict guidelines than other Members of the Oireachtas. While all Members are subject to the ethics legislation, I understand that Ministers are also subject to something known as the Cabinet Handbook. Obviously, I am not familiar with the guidelines. However, I take it that greater restrictions are imposed on Ministers.

While I accept Senator Mansergh's point, Senator Brian Hayes's point made a distinction, in that it pertained to dealing with a person who was to be a witness before a tribunal.

As Senator Brian Hayes noted, this is a question of appropriateness. I recently saw another Minister behave most correctly when some people raised matters of serious concern with him. He had a notetaker and he made a decision as to how he would refer it and deal with the matter. Everything was minuted.

I wish to expand this point slightly. I ask the Leader——

Was the Minister from Kerry?

The next time Senator Coghlan meets a Minister in a bar, he should bring notepaper with him.

I am aware of the existence of some ethical guidelines and standards——

Is it about the money one does or does not receive?

No. I refer to a State document which I understand is issued and which lays down guidelines for all semi-State companies. In this regard, I also understand the Government has a gender balance policy for the State. I understand — the Leader may correct me — that the ratio is 60:40 for State companies. Perhaps some of them, and Fáilte Ireland in particular, do better than that.

Recently, however, I witnessed a case in which a State company owned 75% of another company which was operating through trustees. The trustees held a meeting to nominate a person to fill a vacancy on the board and they divided six to three on the issue. Their attitude was "hump the State and its policy". They thought that there should be horses for courses and that they knew best. They went ahead with a man.

Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?

This is a company with which both the Leas-Chathaoirleach and I are familiar, through a pastime of which he is more fond than me.

It is golf.

The Senator is well over par.

It is a golf club.

I never mentioned golf. I ask the Leader about State policy regarding gender balance. I would be interested to hear her views on the subject.

The Senator is a champion of women. Good for him.

I support Senator O'Toole's comments regarding a press council. The publication by The Sun, which I consider to be a rag of a newspaper, of the information in respect of the prominent Roscommon footballer, who was a former all-star, was damnable. It was circulated widely in my locality and damaged that man’s prospects in both football and business. I understand his business suffered as a result of what was published. Something must be done.

It is not good enough for the insurers of such newspapers to pay out large sums subsequently. The point made by Senator O'Toole is valid and has been raised by many Members previously. Something must be done. Many people, including politicians and footballers, are fair game. However, when they are not involved in any way, it is wrong that their position should be highlighted in such a fashion.

While I was about to apologise, as that appears to be the thing to do, I will not. My apologies would have been for missing a debate on which I wished to speak yesterday. Hence, I was delighted to discover that Second Stage debate on the Road Safety Authority Bill did not conclude. This will provide me with an opportunity to speak on it whenever it comes before the House. Can the Leader inform the House as to when the Road Safety Authority Bill is likely to come before the House for the resumption of Second Stage?

I was not present because I was attending another European meeting in Helsinki. I was interested to learn of one aspect of road safety there. I am aware the Finns have a good record in this regard. I was informed that one step taken there was to link penalty points fines to income. A rather wealthy individual was recently fined €300,000 for speeding on his motorbike, because the fine was related to his income.

In that case, Senator Quinn should mind himself.

I was reminded that the introduction of this Bill provides Members with an opportunity to table amendments and make proposals, and it is good to see its introduction.

I also thank Senator Brian Hayes for referring to my request to hold a debate on energy. I will use my Private Member's time next week to facilitate a discussion on the Government's energy strategy. Regardless of whether this includes nuclear energy, this will provide Members with an opportunity to discuss the issue. It will also provide the Government with an opportunity to outline its views in this regard. I was impressed with the information imparted by Senator O'Toole in respect of the proposal to connect windfarms throughout Europe. I had not heard of it.

I also wish to support Senator Ryan's call for a debate on labelling non-food products. In Europe, we insist that food products imported from every country in Europe are labelled. It would be a useful debate because there is a strong view that we should not insist that every product, be it a cap, shirt or hat, be labelled with the country of origin. Such labelling is used by many countries as a protectionist policy to try to avoid the Internal Market which we are trying to create in Europe. Hence, I would welcome the opportunity to have such a debate in the near future.

I join other Members in their call for a debate on energy, especially on foot of the apology made by the managing director of Shell, which was a good start. In the wider context, while I am not personally in favour of the nuclear energy option, it is interesting to note that Ukraine, in which Chernobyl is situated, is considering an increase in its number of nuclear reactors. Hence, this debate would be worthwhile.

Evidently we have some resources. I refer to the gas that is offshore, in an area which is three or more times greater than our land area. Recently, some Opposition Members called for the State to become involved in exploration, which may be an answer. However, as for discussing the terms given to oil companies to induce exploration, it was not possible to induce anyone to go offshore and spend €40 million or €60 million per well at a time when oil cost $5 per barrel. Realistically, one cannot expect an entrepreneur, who by definition is a risk-taker, to risk money with no chance of return. Evidently, the laws reflected the reality at the time.

We cannot act like el Presidente of some South American country and decide that as the situation has changed, the rules for such individuals may be changed. That would be unfair. The oil companies came here under certain conditions and while we will ask them to apply those conditions, vast areas have yet to be explored. I look forward to the day when we are a major producer.

I also welcome the calls for a debate in this regard, as well as welcoming Senator Quinn's intervention to facilitate next week's debate in respect of energy. It is unfortunate that whenever we debate energy we do so as a reaction to price increases. However, much good work is being done at local authority level where the debate is ongoing. A conference on renewable energy is taking place in Donegal on Friday, 19 May. Donegal County Council is being very proactive in examining the choices and solutions with which we are faced.

It is a problem that there is a 90% reliance on fossil fuels. Nuclear energy is also an option which is not sustainable in the long term. We must consider other options and solutions. Perhaps local authorities could get involved in rolling out their own energy options and solutions, including methane from former landfill sites or taking ownership of tidal power or wind power. We are all aware that the financing of local authorities is becoming unsustainable in the long term. This is a debate which must also take place.

Perhaps the Leader of the House will intervene in regard to the Youth Work Act. It has been on the table for a considerable time and many youth practitioners are getting very worried about their jobs and the sustainability of youth work programmes. Some 17 full-time youth work jobs in Donegal will be on the line at the beginning of 2007. These jobs are funded through the peace and reconciliation fund programme. As ADM-CPA will no longer be able to provide funding for jobs, it is important to implement the Youth Work Act provisions through the VEC and put in place the proper mechanisms to employ full-time community development workers and community youth workers. It is preventive and important work which should be rolled-out.

I thank Senator Brian Hayes for raising the point about Ministers' unofficial meetings with people. I can answer from my vast experience. One has many unofficial meetings because otherwise one would get no work done.

Absolutely.

I used to have very clandestine meetings with Senator O'Toole and Mr. Kieran Mulvey of the ASTI. These meetings were often held before attending a conference in order to hammer out points of view. I recall that we met in the Gresham Hotel. Ministers hold clinics all the time. I never had a note taker in my clinic; I took my own notes. People come to see their representatives in their clinics. If a man or woman expresses a wish for a meeting, one must meet them, and one does not have a note taker in one's handbag. I recall circular 20/87 was issued when I was Minister for Education. Things were so difficult there used to be five and six buses outside our house transporting whole schools, including boards of management and parents. My husband, Enda, used to say that he would set up a burger stall.

To go back to the point the Senator raised, it is a good Minister who has the confidence to meet someone and get various points of view without having a civil servant tucked in his or her pocket. Obviously, if one is meeting someone in the Department, there are plenty of notetakers and plenty of people to kick one under the table and say, "No, we are not doing that. You cannot do that. You cannot say that." However, one must get informed informal opinion, which is good for equity in a situation.

The debate on Senator Quinn's energy policy next week will be welcome. Senator Hayes also raised the issue. We did not shoot down Senator Quinn on nuclear energy. We said the issue should be debated. The Senator raised the ethical aspect of taking nuclear energy via the interconnector. As a Senator said, various bits do not come out labelled as coming from a nuclear plant. It is all muddled in together and it all comes out together. We already do the same with electricity from Scotland, which has approximately three nuclear plants. It is one of these principles which, in theory, one should be ethical about, but because it all goes into the mix, what comes out is mixed up anyway. I recall having that discussion when I was Minister for Public Enterprise. I look forward to the debate with Senator Quinn. I thank him for his letter of apology for not being here for a particular debate because he was travelling to Helsinki. During the debate next week, he will be able to tell us about his experience in Helsinki. The debate will be extended for an hour and a half next week because several Senators who wanted to contribute were not able to do so.

Senator O'Toole referred to Mr. Eddie O'Connor's renewable energy proposal for a linked series of windfarms from the Baltic countries to the Arklow banks, which sounds an amazing adventure. It would be wonderful if this could happen. The principle is exotic and interesting. One can imagine the wind that blows in the Baltic blowing again in Arklow because of the energy created. I agree that Mr. O'Connor is a genius. What he is proposing is very adventurous.

The Senator asked about the press council, as did Senator Moylan. The defamation Bill is expected to be published during this session. However, a prior debate on the issue might be helpful because we could express ideas on the matter. Senator O'Toole expressed an apology, as did Senator Ryan. I am so perfect; I am searching my mind for an apology. I apologise if I was nasty to anyone. Senator Ryan expressed an apology regarding the Bill, which I opened this morning with great excitement. We will debate the need for a genealogical aspect to be included in the Bill.

The Senator made a valid point about the latest horror story of energy charges increasing by 40% to 80%. They always begin at 40%. An increase in the standard charge is stupid because it has nothing to do with the price of the original component. This matter will also be debated next week. I have a horror story to tell about the ESB.

The Senator said that countries with the highest maternity benefit have the greatest competitiveness. This is because women return to work delighted with themselves and full of energy having had time off to care for their babies. He also raised the question of the country of origin of textiles not being noted on garments, with which the EU has difficulty. Senator Quinn explained about this later.

Senator Mansergh said that Ministers of all hues hold clinics and informal meetings. He also referred to the fact that the moratorium was lifted in the other House arising from the input of a Deputy from another party. I thank him for bringing the matter to our attention. It was good research.

The point raised here was that a moratorium was in place, which was then lifted, although we did not know that. I thank the Senator for his research. Dr. Mansergh also talked about the Baltic countries who wish to join the eurozone, but whose inflation rates are 0.1% above the limit. He asked that their applications be considered with the same tolerance as those of countries with enormous monetary difficulties.

Senator Coghlan raised the matter of the ministerial handbook and the ethical guidelines for semi-State companies. He spoke of one State company that threw away the book and insisted on nominating a man to the board. I have always felt that more women should be involved but one cannot force that on people. A woman is a woman, a man is a man, and the matter cannot be forced. I remember during one general election campaign, a slogan was used which said "Why not a woman?" Its aim was to encourage people to vote for a woman but I found it very derogatory. Why not a woman? Why not a mermaid? Why not whatever? I did not like the idea behind it. One votes for a person based on his or her competence, hopefully.

Senator Moylan asked for a debate on the press council. We might have a preparatory debate on the issue, with reference to the Roscommon footballer. Senator Quinn referred to the Road Safety Authority Bill and Private Members' time next week. He also said that he understood the EU caution on labelling. I did not quite understand his point and perhaps he will explain it to me later.

Senator Hanafin raised the matter of energy policy. I accept his point that Shell has issued an apology and I hope that whatever thread contained therein can be drawn out to create a new atmosphere whereby what is a most desirable commodity can be brought ashore for the people of Ireland. However, many people remained quite hardened in their positions on the issue.

Senator McHugh referred to a conference on renewable energy. The local authorities have been very proactive in this regard. Two weeks ago Longford County Council hosted a remarkable conference on renewable energy, at which a professor from Finland spoke. Kildare County Council has solar panels to light all of its premises. The Senator also asked about the Youth Work Act, to be administered by the VECs. I will follow up on that issue.

I received a telephone call yesterday from Mr. Tom Butler of ComReg. He previously worked in the Houses of the Oireachtas and was a Labour Party activist. I knew him quite well and recognised his voice when he called. He watches "Oireachtas Report" and heard what was said in the Chamber about mass and community news broadcasts for elderly and isolated people. He was very interested in the discussion and was most complimentary about the comments made. He asked me to explain to the House that ComReg is working on the issue and has benign feelings about it. It hopes to be able to resolve the matter soon and I am glad to report that to the House. It is not often that one gets feedback such as that. I asked Mr. Butler how he knew about our discussion and he said he watches "Oireachtas Report". He also said that he finds the Order of Business in the Seanad fascinating.

Mr. Butler also received telephone calls from at least three Members of this House making him aware that the issue would be raised here.

Nonetheless, he telephoned me and did not need any ethical guidelines to do so.

Order of Business agreed to.
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