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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jul 2006

Vol. 184 No. 13

Building Societies (Amendment) Bill 2006: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to amend and update certain provisions of building societies legislation, contained mainly in the Building Societies Act 1989. The Bill is based, to a large extent, on reform proposals from an expert review group which comprised representatives of the relevant Departments, the Financial Regulator and the three building societies. It recommended that any building society wishing to demutualise and develop as a public company should not be unduly restricted as regards the conditions under which it could pursue that option. However, the group also recommended that any society wishing to continue to develop as a mutual society should be adequately protected in retaining its mutual status. In addition, it proposed that certain provisions of the legislation should be updated to widen the powers and flexibility of building societies, subject to an appropriate level of approval by the Central Bank.

Most attention has focussed on the proposed changes to the demutualisation options. I want to correct some inaccurate comments that have been made in this regard. The impression is given by some critics that it could, in some way, weaken the concept of mutuality. The opposite is the case. For better or worse, the option for building societies to demutualise has been available in law since 1989. The Bill merely provides additional options for demutualisation but is not prescriptive as to which, if any, of these options are taken. The Bill is primarily about giving building societies more options. It gives the existing building societies, and any that might come into existence in the future, a greater range of options for their corporate status. While it supports any society wishing to remain mutual, it allows any society that sees its future outside the mutual sector more ways to pursue that strategy. That decision rests entirely with each building society. That decision is ultimately made by the members of the building society, who must decide whether to approve a conversion scheme. This will still be the case with the Bill.

The criterion for opting out of the protective provisions has been formulated to ensure sufficient protection for a society that wishes to remain a mutual society. This is achieved by making it a condition for opting out of the protective provisions that a building society has, for at least five years prior to demutualisation, restricted access to membership by requiring a minimum deposit of €10,000 to open a share account. There will now be a five-year period of protection either before or after demutualisation, depending on whether a society wants to have the option of being sold following conversion to a public company or not. This is entirely logical.

The buffer period prior to conversion is designed to discourage any potential predators and carpetbaggers who could quickly emerge and have a destabilising effect if the post-conversion protection was dispensed with and nothing put in its place. This provision is also favourable to long-term members. Some people are looking forward to proceeds from conversion, offsetting possible shortfalls in endowment mortgages, which the Department played a key role in discouraging in the early 1990s.

Some who have criticised the Bill on the principle of mutuality have perversely implied that it could disadvantage EBS members. One key principle the Attorney General's office applied in clearing the Bill was the need to ensure, as far as possible, it provided for equal treatment of the members of all existing building societies and any that might be established in the future. It is not correct to suggest that a society like EBS that has not, up to now, restricted access to membership would have to wait for five years to convert from mutual status to a public company if it were to decide to embark on a policy of demutualisation. It is immediately open to any society to pursue demutualisation under the existing 1989 Act provisions in the same way as two societies have already successfully converted. The Bill does not alter this option. However, a society would have to restrict access to membership for five years before it could avail of the new option under the Bill to dispense with the five-year post-conversion protective provisions.

The Bill will result in building societies having a total of four possible options with regard to their status: to remain mutual; to demutualise under the existing protective provisions; to opt out of those provisions and be taken over immediately; or to opt out and be sold at any later date. There is no reason to assume a building society should inevitably take the demutualisation route. The legislation is designed to ensure that, in opening up additional options for institutions that do wish to convert, no new dynamic is created that might bring additional pressure for demutualisation to bear on a society that wishes to remain mutual.

I want to correct a report that, if a society wants to remain mutual, membership will be restricted to those who deposit a minimum of €10,000. This condition is merely the criterion for giving an institution the option to demutualise without the protection of the five-year ban on takeover after conversion. There have also been suggestions that the Bill is designed to look after the some vested interests. It does not change the status of any building society. It is an enabling measure to provide additional options for the development of institutions. The Irish Nationwide Building Society indicated a desire to be able to demutualise without the present five-year post-conversion ban on takeover. It will, however, still be open also to any society to demutualise with the cover of the existing protective provisions. The decision on these matters is for the society's members. If the members feel they are not getting a fair deal in a conversion proposal, they can vote it down.

The conversion of a building society involves an extensive and rigorous process of consultation and approval. This point is also relevant to comments made about the lending practices of building societies. Such issues are for either the Financial Regulator or the financial services ombudsman, depending on the context. They are not affected by the Bill. Senators who may have concerns about this must be aware of the robust process involved in the approval and implementation of a building society conversion.

It might be useful to outline a little more fully at this point how the conversion process actually operates. The demutualisation process is governed by a conversion scheme under the Act. While the conversion scheme is drawn up by the directors of the society, it must comply with detailed requirements in the Act and it must first be cleared by the Central Bank. The scheme must be explained to and approved by the members of the society, public notices must be given, and the scheme must be formally confirmed by the Central Bank which must consider any objections or representations and can refuse to confirm it on various grounds, including the public interest. There is also provision for members of the society to petition the High Court for cancellation of a conversion scheme. Where the conversion process is duly completed, the society must be registered under the Companies Acts, whereupon it becomes incorporated as a public company, in effect changing from a building society to a bank.

Two societies have converted into public companies under the provisions of the 1989 Act. The Irish Permanent demutualised in 1994 and now trades as Permanent TSB, while the First National Building Society, now First Active, converted in 1998. Both of these demutualisations took place under the so-called "protective provisions" in section 102 of the 1989 Act, precluding takeover for five years. While an option of a five-year protection before rather than after conversion is now being allowed by this Bill, it is important to be aware that the process for conversion, which worked well in the previous cases, still applies and indeed is being made even more rigorous and transparent in some ways.

I will now outline briefly some of the main provisions of the Bill. While the main focus of attention in this area has been on the change in the demutualisation provisions, it does also provide for a number of other reforms in the legislation governing the operation and regulation of building societies. These arise from matters considered by the review group and some subsequent proposals from the sector, which have been agreed with the relevant Departments and the Financial Regulator. These include the following: amendments to increase the powers and discretion of societies, subject to approval by the Central Bank, as appropriate, in regard to matters such as the range of services they provide; how they source funding; bodies in which they can invest; categories of customers that can be given membership; and the extent to which specific approval of society members and the Central Bank is needed in order to undertake certain functions. I will outline briefly some of the main changes.

Section 7 allows building societies to extend membership to additional categories of customers and to establish loyalty schemes for members. Section 8 broadens the scope of building societies to raise funds from different sources in line with other financial institutions and also extends the power of building societies to provide security for borrowings by various bodies in which they are empowered to invest. Section 9 brings the powers of building societies in regard to mortgages into line with those of other financial institutions, including clarification of powers relating to refinancing and top-up loans and allows mortgages to be provided without the society having a first charge against the property.

Section 10 permits a building society to make unsecured or partly secured loans without first having to adopt the power specifically to do so. The Central Bank will have a general supervisory role with regard to the making of these loans rather than prescribing a specific loan limit as is currently the case. Section 12 extends the existing powers of building societies to invest in or support other bodies, including investment in unincorporated bodies such as partnerships, as well as corporate bodies.

Section 13 extends the range of financial services that can be offered by a building society, including any activities under the EU codified banking directive that are not otherwise permitted by the legislation. Examples of new services that could be provided arising from this include trading for the account of customers in money market instruments and other financial instruments and portfolio management and advice. Section 15 provides that powers that are ancillary or incidental and related to powers that have already been adopted by members of a building society and approved by the Central Bank, will not have to be separately adopted and approved.

Sections 19 to 27 provide for amendments of the legislative provisions relating to demutualisation. The main change in this area involves giving a building society discretion to decide to opt out of the five-year post-conversion protective provisions in existing legislation. These preclude any individual or institution holding 15% or more of the shares of a demutualised society for five years. There are in fact two elements involved in this matter in the Bill. First, section 21 amends section 101 of the Building Societies Act 1989 to allow a building society, in specified circumstances, to propose a conversion scheme that will, effectively, disapply the provisions of section 102. This opt-out provision is designed to operate in a way that will not adversely affect any society wishing to retain mutual status. A society will only be able to disapply the protective provisions if it has, for the preceding five years, required a minimum of €10,000 to open a share account.

Section 19 contains a further provision to protect against pressure for demutualisation being brought to bear through members of a mutual building society. It extends an existing provision, in section 74 of the 1989 Act, precluding members from proposing conversion resolutions at AGMs. The reason for this change is that there were doubts as to whether certain types of resolutions referring to conversion were covered by the existing provision and also the need to cover resolutions relating to access to membership which, under this Bill, can constitute a route towards demutualisation. However, having considered concerns voiced in regard to this section that the current wording could be interpreted as being rather restrictive, I have brought forward an amendment which was made on Committee Stage in the Dáil to ensure that there is no question of restricting the right of members to raise any issue for discussion.

The second element of the provisions relating to conversion and sale of a building society involves the insertion of a new section in the legislation providing for an integrated process of conversion and immediate acquisition. Section 22 of the Bill provides that a society opting to convert without the protection of the five-year post-conversion protective provisions will be empowered to do so through a combined "conversion-acquisition scheme" which will form part of the conversion scheme and, as such, will be approved by the members of the society. This will enable the society to agree a trade sale of the company to be implemented immediately on demutualisation. If, for any reason, that acquisition does not proceed, for example, due to some condition of the agreement not being fulfilled, the conversion would be terminated and the society would continue as a mutual building society.

The intention of the Irish Nationwide Building Society to demutualise following enactment of the changes provided for in this Bill has been well signalled. The question of entitlements of members or borrowers of the society in the event of its demutualisation has been the subject of media speculation. However, these are not prescribed in the legislation itself. The only specific provision in that regard in the legislation is a condition that any entitlements arising from shareholding in a society are restricted to members who have held shares for at least two years. This provision is, in fact, being amended to make it absolutely clear that it does not restrict possible entitlements solely to shareholders.

As in the case of the two demutualisations that have already taken place, the details regarding entitlements are matters to be determined in the conversion scheme, which governs the conversion process, subject to confirmation by the Central Bank. While the details of the conversion scheme are matters for the society and the Central Bank, I would be surprised if the precedents of the two other demutualisations did not generally apply, whereby both qualifying shareholders and mortgage holders received entitlements and where a person qualified on both counts, he or she received dual entitlements.

The mortgage lending sector has developed out of all recognition since the 1989 Act. The lending institutions themselves have developed greatly and have, it must be said, facilitated hundreds of thousands of additional households in becoming home owners, especially during the past ten years or more of tremendous growth in the housing market. More recently, some have made a very welcome entry to the affordable housing scene. The lending market today is not entirely without issues, but they are very different from the types of issues that were current in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Since the middle of last year, I have consistently expressed concern about the likely impact on house prices of increased lending and 100% mortgages in particular. In a recent quarterly bulletin, the Central Bank commented that the gradual acceleration in house price inflation since last autumn had coincided with some easing of credit conditions and that this seemed, at least in part, to reflect an increased effort on the part of mortgage lenders to market some new products, specifically 100% mortgages. The president of the European Central Bank has also commented recently on the need for prudence.

There is nothing wrong, per se, in lenders trying to maximise profit and market share. I take issue, however, with executives of some institutions flaunting so-called “innovative products” and with the aggressive marketing of those products, particularly to first-time buyers. It would be foolish to ignore the potential implications of excessive lending in terms of house prices, both for the individual and at a macro level. House prices are determined not just by the numbers seeking houses but by the volume of funds available.

The real solutions lie in maintaining high levels of supply and increased output of affordable housing, not through pushing up loan to value ratios or stretching loan terms to a point where many mortgages are virtually interest-only repayments. The Government has taken a range of actions to promote housing supply affordability. As these measures increasingly have effect and the market calms somewhat with more restrained lending in line with the Central Bank's comments, we will resume the path towards house price moderation and stability in the market. I was pleased to hear reports earlier this week from the auctioneering bodies that the market may be cooling and hopefully easing back gradually to a more sustainable pattern. Those comments are not yet reflected in the statistics but we hope they are an indication of what will happen in coming months.

As regards the longer-term evolution of building society legislation, this Bill is not and was never intended to be a root and branch overhaul of building society legislation. The much-reduced number of building societies, their smaller share of mortgage lending, the fact that they are now supervised by the Financial Regulator in common with other financial institutions, and the further reduction of distinctions between building societies and banks under this Bill, have largely removed the rationale for a separate code of building society legislation. The Government has, accordingly, decided in principle that the building societies legislative code should be brought within general financial services legislation at a future date. This will give a chance to reflect further on the role of the mutual sector and its continuing contribution to promoting diversity and price competitiveness in the mortgage market.

Although the timescale for processing this Bill is tight, its enactment is desirable in order to avoid any uncertainty for the market and bring closure to the issues surrounding possible future building society demutualisations. It is quite a technical Bill consisting almost entirely of amendments to the 1989 Building Societies Act. It deals with financial services issues which are somewhat outside the mainstream of my Department's functions. Its production has been very much a collaborative process between the various Departments, the Financial Regulator and the Office of the Attorney General. The Bill implements several important reforms and updates building society legislation. It brings clarity to the options available to societies regarding their future corporate status. I commend it to the House.

I welcome the Minister of State. In the tried and trusted manner of being suspicious of Greeks bearing gifts, however, I am wary of his presence to discuss the Building Societies (Amendment Bill) 2006. This is legislation that could be classed as a time bomb.

Once again we are faced with undue haste on the part of the Government, following a marked dragging of its heels in bringing this legislation forward. A Bill is yet again being pushed through in the final days of the session. We must bear in mind the truism that rushed legislation is bad legislation. Moreover, rushed legislation that is slipped in towards the end of a session tends to be legislation that is beneficial in some way to the Government. We are told that this is merely a technical Bill. However fitting it might be to dispose of a technical Bill in two and a half hours, this Bill does not fall into that category.

Not only is it being stream-rolled with unseemly haste through the Seanad but it seems to carry a history of secrecy and even cover-up. Its provisions are based to a large extent on the recommendations of the building societies review group. Those recommendations were never made public because they were deemed too commercially sensitive. This seems strange given that such concerns should play no part in guiding the actions of the Oireachtas.

Without wishing to cast any aspersions, it is open to interpretation as to who exactly this Bill will benefit. There have been claims that the winners will be one particular building society and several of its senior employees. Despite supporting this legislation in principle, I will not be involved in passing any Bill that could be interpreted in such a manner. We must give careful consideration to any inference of this legislation which could be open to such interpretation. Apart from intimations of cronyism, any legislation that is rushed in this manner is open to suspicion. The dying days of a dying Government see strange happenings, but caution is indicated for those who must pick up the pieces.

We are presented with the unacceptable scenario that all Stages of the Bill must be passed in two hours and 30 minutes. It was similarly rushed through the other House. I remind the Minister of State that this is a parliamentary democracy and that this House should not be treated with such disrespect. The Government was unbelievably slow in bringing forward this legislation, which has been on the agenda for years. After such delay, it suddenly moved at breakneck speed. While I realise the hurry that many members of Irish Nationwide are in, the Government should have allotted sufficient time at an earlier juncture for the Oireachtas to debate the legislation. Sufficient time should have been allotted for Committee Stage rather than treating these Houses as a rubber stamp for a fait accompli.

I note that Mr. Brendan Burgess, a long-term campaigner on consumer issues, shares my concerns about this legislation. He has warned that it should not be rushed through the Oireachtas. In The Irish Times of 30 June, he is quoted as saying: “Serious debate needs to take place on this Bill. While we don’t want discussion to drag on indefinitely, the Bill is seriously flawed and these flaws have to be fixed”. He calls for members of the building societies to be consulted on the Bill’s contents.

The Bill provides for the demutualisation and immediate sale of Irish Nationwide. It will also allow the EBS to remain a mutual society, while becoming more like a bank. This would enable the EBS to raise more money for growth and to offer products such as current accounts. I note media commentary suggesting Irish Nationwide plans to appoint corporate finance advisers as soon as the Bill becomes law, while prospective buyers will also become free to consider their options. This, of course, is the dubious nub of the matter. We as legislators are being railroaded into rushing through legislation which, whether rightly or wrongly, benefits commercial interests and this does not rest at all well with me.

The society is expected to sell for €1.5 billion, with interested parties likely to include several banks, including Danske Bank, the owner of National Irish Bank. Everyone in this House will be conscious of the fact that demutualisation will also prepare the ground for each of Irish Nationwide's 120,000 qualifying members to receive a windfall of several thousand euro in the event of a sale.

As the Minister has stated, the Bill allows for the demutualisation of building societies following recommendations of the Building Societies Review Group, which was too commercially sensitive for public consumption. As the Bill has the backing of this group, one could argue that it is safe to say that the measures contained within it are primarily sound and are worthy of support but there is, of course, an aspect of secrecy here to concern us. Indeed, while the Bill is technical in many of its provisions, there are many concerns. I would like to take this opportunity to raise some of them with a view to getting a response from the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern.

The House will, of course, be aware of the many problems associated with Irish Nationwide in recent years. Campaigns have been fought for many years seeking the society's status to be changed to allow for payout. Under historical rules, a society that converted into a plc would have needed to wait for five years before becoming eligible for full sale. This Bill proposes that this five-year rule be removed for societies that have, for the preceding five years, limited their membership to customers who have lodged at least €10,000 to a share account. This is in the public domain.

I draw the Minister of State's attention to the borrowing victims of the actions of Irish Nationwide, which now look set to be copper-fastened by the actions of the Government. The Bill will release a windfall of around €1.5 billion to members, directors and the chief executive of Irish Nationwide. However, some contend that this huge windfall has been built up in large part on the backs of the borrowing victims of the society. Brendan Burgess, one of Irish Nationwide's dissident members, has stated that the Bill would allow the society to demutualise quickly. He went on, however, to describe the proposed legislation as "extraordinarily artificial" because of the way it accommodates "the separate aspirations of the boards of the EBS and Irish Nationwide". I invite the Minister to comment on this and the fact that Irish Nationwide Building Society rejected a proposal at its annual general meeting in May to earn a windfall by converting the institution into a public limited company. At that AGM a motion was tabled calling on the board to proceed immediately with the process of converting the society into a plc rather than waiting for a legal change that would allow its immediate sale. However, more than 80% of members rejected the plan.

The Minister of State will also be aware that Irish Nationwide systematically held back interest rate cuts from existing borrowers while passing on rate cuts to new borrowers. As Brendan Burgess has stated, between 1993 and 2003, interest rates for other lenders fell by 10% in line with Central Bank rates. The Irish Nationwide passed on these cuts to new business but passed on only half the cuts to existing customers. All other banks pass on rate cuts and increases more or less in full and reasonably promptly, despite the public perception to the contrary.

Irish Nationwide Building Society did not notify customers of the rate they were being charged on the notification of rate changes. They did not notify customers of the rate on the annual statements. Borrowers logically assumed that the rate cuts were being passed on. If they discovered the rate that they were being charged was excessive, they could negotiate a one-off reduction or move their mortgage elsewhere. However, the society refused to reduce rates for borrowers in arrears, as they knew that they could not shop around.

The Bill, on the face of it, does nothing for those who suffered under this regime, many of whom are going through the courts process to seek redress. As tends to be the reality with this Government, the Bill will benefit those at the upper end of the financial scale at the expense of the less well off and financially vulnerable. Those lobbying against the Bill have called on the building society, which is being sold on demutualisation, to set aside a fund which would be administered independently of the society and the purchaser to resolve all outstanding claims against the society. If the fund is not sufficient, the buyer must make up the shortfall. Any surplus in the fund would be distributed in a second windfall. I would be interested to hear the views of the Minister of State on this proposal and I wish to make it clear that we will be seeking to amend the Bill, on foot of what I have just said, to allow for a court appointed inspector to clarify if the assets and liabilities of all building societies seeking to demutualise are in order.

The Bill has huge ramifications for building society members and our banking system. The plight of the victims of the Irish Nationwide will be totally ignored in the rush to pass this Bill and that is an insult. We have raised issues on this Bill and it is entirely wrong that we have been given such a short time to deal with it. Strangely, Irish Nationwide cleared the last hurdle to a fast-track sale last week when the Government pledged to revamp the building society rule book following intense pressure from its managing director. Even more strangely, this is then followed by the rushing of this Bill through both Houses, in the dying moments of this session.

I sincerely hope this lack of scrutiny does not come back to haunt us or, for the sake of the Minister of State, be added to the already considerable list of dubious deals associated with this Government.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern, and I welcome this Bill also. I do not see it in the same light as the previous speaker because I do not believe that this is a time bomb. The Building Societies Review Group included representatives of the building societies, Departments and the Financial Regulator. The Bill relates to taking measures for reform a package of which were proposed by the group. While the group concluded that a building society wishing to demutualise and develop as a public company should not be unduly restricted, it also stated that any society seeking to continue as a mutual should be adequately protected in terms of retaining mutual status. This is clear in the package proposed by the group.

The key element of the Bill relates to the amendment of provisions relating to demutualisation. This gives building societies discretion to opt out of the five year post-conversion protective provisions in section 102 of the Building Societies Act 1989. These preclude any individual institution holding 50% or more of the shares of a demutualised society for five years. Where a building society takes this option, it will be possible for it to be taken over immediately on demutualisation through an integrated conversion acquisition scheme approved by the members. This opt-out provision is designed to operate in a way that will not adversely affect any society wishing to retain mutual status.

It will be open to any society to demutualise with the cover of the existing protective provisions. The Minister of State stressed during his contribution that members can vote on this issue. He referred to the flexibility that exists and the greater range of options that will be available to building societies.

Senator Bannon raised the issue of corporate status but it is clear that it is dealt with in the Bill. The legislation provides that any building society wishing to remain mutual can do so but allows any society that sees its future outside the mutual sector to pursue such a strategy through several means.

One of the building societies mentioned by Senator Bannon and referred to in the media, is the Irish Nationwide Building Society. It is well known that it has indicated a desire to demutualise without the restriction of the current five year post-conversion provisions. There are two elements in the Bill concerning this matter. First, a society can opt out of the current post-conversion protective provisions and, second, a society choosing to do so can agree a trade sale of the company to be implemented immediately on demutualisation.

Another society that has been mentioned is the EBS which, up to now, has restricted access to membership. It can, if it so wishes, pursue demutualisation immediately under the existing provisions of the 1989 Act in exactly the same way as the other two societies that have converted. The Bill does not alter that option. However, the EBS would have to restrict access to membership for five years before it could avail of the new option under the Bill to dispense with the five year post-conversion protective provisions. There has been no indication that the board or members of the EBS want to opt out of the five year post-conversion protective provisions or to convert under any circumstances. I understand the EBS has been pursuing policies aimed at retaining mutual status.

Some Members have suggested that the Bill is being rushed but I cannot understand that argument. The legislation has been promised for a long time and it was agreed that all Stages would be taken this week. The review group has been discussing this matter for a considerable period of time. It is important to enact the legislation quickly. There is no need for further consultation or analysis.

It would be worrying, as the Minister of State has said, if there was uncertainty in the market. We should bring closure to the issues surrounding the possible future of building societies and demutualisations, and end speculation in that regard. There is a concern that if there is a delay in the enactment of the Bill, it could lead to a degree of instability in the sector.

In his contribution, the Minister of State explained that there are four options regarding the status of building societies: they can remain mutual; demutualise under the existing protective provisions; opt out of those provisions and be taken over immediately; or opt out of those provisions and be sold at a later date. The Minister of State made the point that the five-year buffer period was designed to discourage any potential predators, which is a valid point. I do not see how the Bill will prevent members of a society from discussing conversion. Section 19 contains a provision to protect against pressure for demutualisation being brought to bear through members of a mutual building society.

Another issue raised was the need for additional controls over the process of demutualisation. Two building societies have already converted under the existing provisions without giving rise to difficulties and this Bill does not alter the basic framework under which those conversions took place.

The Minister of State made an interesting point about charging practices in building society. This is not just an issue of concern with regard to building societies but all financial institutions. The Minister of State referred to the financial services ombudsman in this regard and perhaps his office should be granted more powers to ensure dubious charging practices do not continue. We have seen a number of financial institutions having to put their hands up and admit mistakes were made. People received refunds, and rightly so, as a result of investigations that took place.

In the latter part of his speech the Minister of State referred to the further reduction of the distinction between building societies and banks under the Bill and that it has largely removed the rationale for a separate code of building society legislation. In terms of flexibility, one area that has not been covered — I am aware that it does not come under the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government — is the question of credit unions. I raised with the Minister at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting last Tuesday the fact that credit unions are restricted as to the amount of money they can lend to members. Credit unions should be given the option to expand their business. As I understand it, section 35 of the Credit Union Act 1997 restricts the amount of money credit unions can lend to members over five and ten years. Credit unions can lend only 20% of their loan book over five years and 10% over ten years. That prevents credit unions from servicing members and their communities who are looking to the credit unions for loans.

I do not like to interrupt the Senator, but I suggest that matter is more appropriate for the Department of Finance.

It is indeed and that is what the Minister told me. However, it is only right to put it on the record of the House that the credit union movement is being restricted. If we are going to allow more flexibility for other financial institutions, credit unions should be given the same facility. Credit unions now have over 50% excess liquidity in their accounts and they have no choice but to invest that money in other financial institutions. That demonstrates that the restrictions should not be imposed on credit unions.

I know it is not a question of simply amending the Act. The Minister of Finance has told me that other issues are involved. However, if we are talking about competition in the context of other financial institutions, credit unions must also be given flexibility through the removal of the aforementioned restrictions. The Irish League of Credit Unions has made that point very strongly. It has sought the lifting of the restrictions, which would give credit unions a fair chance to grow and develop. The percentage limits could be changed from 20% to 40% over five years and from 10% to 20% over ten years. I hope that will be done soon.

I welcome the Bill. The issue has been discussed in great detail and now is the time for action.

I wish to share my time with Senator Ross.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials to the House. While this is important legislation, I must say I find it very depressing and discouraging. I do not blame the Minister of State for that. It is clear that market forces are at work and this is inevitable. The Minister of State had no choice but to move forward and deal with the issues being dealt with in this Bill. I wish it were not so. I am committed to the concept of mutual societies and I regret their demise but the fact is this is happening. The Minister does not have any control over that and neither does the Government or anybody else. That is the way the market is moving and the way we must follow in this respect.

However, it is important to recognise what is involved when we talk about, to use the word used by the Minister of State, "conversion" or demutualisation. In a mutual society, the society and its assets are owned by the members. These are the members who have a loan from the society. Following the conversion to a public limited company, the company is then owned by the shareholders. The shareholders must get their dividend and profit. They get that by squeezing the mortgagees. In other words, they must put pressure on the people who are repaying their mortgages not only to run the company but to create a profit for the shareholders. Therefore, there is an extra tier of costs which is loaded on to the process and which must be paid for by the mortgage holder. That means we are moving away from the concept of people looking after each other in the buying of houses. It is one further step to make life more difficult for people who are trying to cope with paying for the cost of buying a house. In that sense, it is tragic.

I listened recently to comments by the Educational Building Society on this proposal. They were that the society was delighted about this legislation and that it would give it added protection. I have read through the Bill and do not see where there is any such added protection in it. Nothing has changed. I agree with the Minister of State that there might have been some doubt about what was meant in the original Bill and he was right to change the legislation in the way he has. It was never the position that people could walk into the AGM of a building society and bring a motion that the society would be demutualised and get it passed.

People should recognise that there is no added support for mutualisation in this legislation. It does not make life any worse for those societies who wish to remain as mutuals and that is a good thing. Neither does it in any way make it less likely that they will demutualise. That is the case.

I have a particular interest in building societies because the Educational Building Society was founded by members of my union in the Teachers Club 70 years ago in the hungry 1930s. That is where the society got the name Educational Building Society. Therefore, I have always had a keen interest in it and closely followed its progress. I have admired the way it managed its business and the way it is trying to maintain mutuality, but I do not believe that it will succeed. Market forces will overwhelm building societies eventually and they will move in that direction.

I am not trying to draw in another strand to this debate but, as Senator Kitt said, this change will mean that the largest mutual service that will remain in the financial services area will be the credit unions. Significantly, the Irish League of Credit Unions was also founded by a member of my union, Ms Nora Herlihy. People involved in education have always been considering how we fund the buying and selling of houses.

If the largest mutual group remaining after the enactment of this legislation is credit unions, we need to examine that matter. I would like the Minister of State to give a commitment to come back to this House in the autumn and discuss some of the issues related to mutualisation and to allow credit unions to give bigger loans to people who wish to buy a house. Senator Kitt raised a related issue. There is merit in the issue he raised, but I do not fully agree with it because there are number of other issues involved. If we move into that area, we will have to ensure that credit unions are not used for money laundering purposes, are properly run and their debt properly managed. As Senator Kitt said, credit unions are investing in financial institutions. I am concerned that we have not put down a sufficient marker on how such funds are being invested in financial institutions. Taking all those aspects into account, credit unions will have a more important place in society than they have had previously and they will take the place of mutual building societies in the future. We should proceed carefully down that road. Today is one step. I am disappointed this legislation is before us. I wish we did not need to have it, but I recognise the Minister of State's need to do so. I will support it on that basis.

I share Senator O'Toole's rather romantic view of a perfect world and how it would be very nice if we could all support each other in buying houses. I was a great believer in mutual societies for a long time because I thought that they were doing that. The evidence now is that this does not happen any more. None of the building societies remaining does this and would not survive in the market if it did so. I welcome the Bill with the same enthusiasm as Senator O'Toole in that I wish we lived in a world where we were all prepared to put money into a society to help other people to buy houses, but we do not. Those people who run building societies are not expected to do that or to run those societies any more for the benefit of the borrowers or for society as a whole. They run them specifically to make profits and are judged on the profits they make. The result is that demutualisation has become the fashion and mutual societies are almost non-existent.

The Government acted wisely in introducing this Bill and I welcome it in that sense. It should be recognised that this Bill is being introduced largely for the benefit of two building societies, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are two large building societies remaining, namely, the Irish Nationwide Building Society and the Educational Building Society. They need the flexibility that is currently demanded of them in the market. This Bill will allow the Irish Nationwide Building Society to take its course, which is for it to be sold, and it will also allow the Educational Building Society the protection, which apparently its board of directors desire, to remain a mutual. Modernising these building societies, which are sort of half banks — they compete with the banks with their hands tied behind their backs to a certain extent — is a sensible and inevitable move. They could not survive without such modernisation.

I am doubtful about the benefits of mutuality. They are an ideal but I am not sure they can happen. One need only reflect on the Educational Building Society and the way it operates to ask oneself whether it is being run as efficiently as other societies and other financial institutions. It makes enormous play of the fact that every year it issues a mutuality dividend, where effectively it says to its borrowers and savers that it gets a better rate because it is a mutual. The evidence for that is fairly doubtful. Sometimes the rates from the Educational Building Society are better but not always. Therefore, it appears that the borrowers are not really benefiting from the mutuality which exists in that particular society. The reality is that the only way borrowers can benefit in this way is if costs are cut rather than the way it is done at present. This building society is operating with — I am open to correction on this — a cost-income ratio of approximately 58%. I do not want to be technical but it is a high cost-income ratio. There is not the pressure on it to keep costs down, whereas its rival, the Irish Nationwide Building Society, is working on a cost-income ratio of under 20%. The mutuality dividend, if there is such a thing, is really largely illusory. The pressure on a building society, a real mutual in the market, to produce dividends is not great enough to force it to bring its costs down. If that were the case, deposit and mortgage rates would be lower than the competing banks, but that is not the case. I do not believe mutuality, in effect, is working.

I am also doubtful about it working in any democratic sense. None of the boards of the building societies has been beaten on any issue that I can remember recently, including the Irish Nationwide Building Society which was involved in some controversies and the Educational Building Society which was not involved in as many controversies. It appears that they always seem to get their own way. The members of the board of the EBS are paid as much, if not more, than the members of the board of Irish Nationwide. Those who control the EBS are extraordinarily well paid for the devotion to the principle of mutuality. They are major beneficiaries of the devotion to mutuality, something about which some people might be slightly sceptical.

I welcome the Bill because it will introduce more competition into the banking sector. If Irish Nationwide is sold to a single buyer, it will, hopefully, introduce a new bank into the Irish market. There is every possibility that due to the extraordinary success of this building society and the incredible profits which it has been able to record, it will be bought by a new entrant to the market. The Irish banking market badly needs new entrants. We witnessed the sale of National Irish Bank and the entrance of the Bank of Scotland into the Irish market. The cartel is being broken up but it would be very welcome if some external bank bought Irish Nationwide because it would introduce more competition and do the job which mutual societies should possibly have done in the first place.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the publication of this Bill. As has been said previously, the Bill marks the end of an era. For many years, the first savings book that a young person received when he or she got his or her first job was a post office or a building society book. The legislation passing through the House today effectively levels the playing pitch for building societies. We have seen the changes which have taken place recently in the building industry. The construction of over 80,000 housing units year after year has completely changed the pitch. Building societies must compete for their ordinary members. We must remember that the vast majority of building society members are ordinary working people who took out mortgages or had savings with building societies. As the two previous speakers noted, the thrust of these mutual societies was aimed at everyone's mutual benefit. This fact must be remembered.

I do not know why people are surprised by this legislation. I received inquiries about what was happening from ordinary members of building societies almost over a year ago. Due to commercial sensitivities, the timing of the Bill was sensitive but it will come as no surprise to anyone. Building societies as they are now constituted must compete in what is an ever increasing competitive market. As Senator Ross noted, we need more competition in the banking market because it benefits consumers.

The legislation as it is framed is very fair. It allows building societies to decide which route it they wish to take for the benefit of their members. The different sections that deal with demutualisation, the different systems through which it will go and the conversions are subject to scrutiny by the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator before they are introduced to building society members. As the Minister of State pointed out, it is open to the members to vote on it and if they do not like it, they can vote against it. The legislation has been amended to take into account the fact that it cannot be forced through without the full co-operation of members.

The Bill leaves the decision on any changes with the society. Not only must the decision be approved by members, it must also be approved by the Financial Regulator. As we know, this legislation is largely based on the recommendations of the building society review group, which included the Financial Regulator, representatives from the three building societies and the Department. What has come out of this is very fair and balanced legislation.

The building societies looked for the options to opt out of the five-year post-conversion protection that was there. When the option to demutualise is taken, the society can be taken over, again with the full approval and to the benefit of the members. Due to the significant changes in the financial services sector recently, building societies accept that they must change. These changes are essential to enable them to compete and flourish in the current climate. It will put societies on the same footing as banks and allow them to compete.

Like previous speakers, I would like to plug credit unions in this regard. The World Council of Credit Unions, which is a meeting of delegates from around the world, will be held on 27 July 2006 in the Burlington Hotel in Dublin. This is indicative of the status of the credit union movement. As has been pointed out, there are more issues at stake than a change of legislation. It is something at which we must look.

In respect of corporate governance and how it is put into effect, it is accepted that good corporate governance is essential if a financial institution is to operate with transparency and within the regulations. This legislation does not simply deal with demutualisation. It also deals with a range of aspects in respect of how the societies will function from now on, including the loans they can provide, who can be members of the board and dealing with foreign currencies. As the legislation is currently framed, it is in the interests of societies and their members to make the decisions they want to make as regards the future role they have in the financial services sector.

I welcome the Bill, which marks the end of an era in the sense that building societies as we know them have now changed. As has been noted by previous speakers, mutual societies were set up with the aim of benefiting their members in a mutual fashion and supporting each other. The original ethos of the societies has changed over many years but the way in which this legislation is framed makes it an even-handed Bill which will enable the societies to place themselves in a highly competitive and changing market. There are obviously issues with individuals and different groups with the societies. It is open to them to put measures to the floor when they hold their general meeting, which is the appropriate forum for this kind of decision. I welcome this legislation because building society members have been contacting me for over a year to find out what was happening.

As the Minister of State noted, we have seen examples of carpetbaggers taking advantage of these situations. The measures in this Bill will prevent this from happening. There will be a two-year requirement for someone seeking to open an account or secure a loan or mortgage with a building society. The legislation is very even-handed and fair and will benefit building society members in the future, irrespective of whether they want their societies to become private institutions or maintain their status as building societies. Once this option is open to them and if they can compete fairly and equally with other institutions, it will be in their interest to allow for this situation. I welcome this legislation.

While I am not sure I welcome the Bill, I am not prepared to fly in the face of reality. Senator O'Toole correctly spoke about mutuality, co-operation and so on. It is a pity that people insist on using incomplete criteria to judge the significant benefits of genuinely mutual organisations and the co-operative movement in general. My good friend, Senator Ross, stated that he did not know how the mutual organisations were better at delivering low interest rates. While I am sure he is right, the history of mutual organisations, that is, credit unions as originally envisaged, or credit unions is not one of maximising members' profits, but of providing services for members that would not be available elsewhere.

I am old enough to remember people's difficulties in getting mortgages. In many cases, issues remain to be discussed in that regard. It is a pity we do not have a thriving not-for-profit movement beyond credit unions. I am more than a little sceptical of some of the bleating of the banks on what they call unfair competition in respect of credit unions, as that is a bit rich. No members of the voluntary boards that operate credit unions will be paid as much in their lifetimes as the senior executives of some of the banks are paid per year. They do this work for the good of their communities. To have powerful banks using their considerable public and political clout to undermine credit unions is a great pity.

However, I do not weep for building societies too much. For members of such societies in the old days, the idea that they were mutual was as far from reality as one could get and still be on the planet. The building society with which I had my major mortgage was controlled by one family that managed to reorganise the rules so that the allegedly mutual owners never knew how much the family members were being paid. In Cork, they made it compulsory to use a firm of solicitors with direct family connections to the building society and insisted that we bought insurance through a system similarly linked to the extended family. That was supposed to be a mutual organisation owned by its members. One could find out less about the payments to its directors and senior executives than the payments to similar people in plcs, which were not mutual organisations at the time.

However benevolent the sole survivor is, the idea that building societies were mutual organisations was far from reality and there is no point in pretending otherwise. The largest society became an extraordinary vehicle for the enrichment of a small number of people who were essentially members of a single family. The society was not what it was meant to be.

I liked the Minister of State's reference to the dangers of predators, carpetbaggers and opportunists because I agree with him. That is exactly what happened to Eircom, namely, a bunch of predators, carpetbaggers and opportunists bought its shares when they were cheap and sold them at a considerable profit, thereby milking Eircom of funds that should have been used to give this country a proper broadband service. We are not short of such people.

When these transformations occur, whether they are the privatisation of Aer Lingus, Eircom or Greencore or demutualisations, the one aspect and certainty we are not supposed to mention is that the salaries of the CEOs will be doubled, trebled or quadrupled. To even suggest that the enthusiasm of the senior managers of these companies for whatever procedure is involved might have anything to do with their getting richer is regarded as untoward. Every privatisation has resulted in CEOs moving from the public service range of salaries, which would encompass the Taoiseach at one end and the rest of us down the line with a couple of exceptions, to a range wherein the Taoiseach would be regarded as a poorly paid middle-ranking executive in many of the companies in question.

My mind boggles at the salary of our second largest bank's chief executive. This afternoon, I worked out the figures. He is paid 2.5 times as much as Pat Kenny, six times as much as Joe Duffy, 15 times as much as the Taoiseach, 25 times as much as a Deputy, 35 times as much as a mere Senator and 160 times the average private sector wage. This is the ballpark salary that an executive of a soon-to-be demutualised building society will expect to emulate. He or she might only get half of it, that is, €1.25 million per year.

Senator Ross and I agree on a number of issues, one of which is that people justify many of these salaries by the need to keep high achievers in the Irish financial services sector. Otherwise, they will be snapped up by international headhunting organisations. Funnily, not a single executive has ever been snapped up. I do not want to personalise this issue in a debate on concepts, principles and the aggrandisement of the senior executives of these companies, but they are undoubtedly driven by the profit motive. They believe it is the way to provide the best service, but tell us that they are as pure as the driven snow and the last thing on their minds is money. One or the other of their statements is untrue.

I am sceptical of the Minister of State's assertion that there is no question of bowing to vested interests. It might be a good choice of phrase, but there is no doubt that we are providing the vehicle for the ambitions of a particular building society, perhaps more so for a particular individual. This measure might be correct and there might be a push from within the organisation for such to be done, but to pretend that the major driving force is not the desire of a building society to get out of the constraints governing what it can do for the next five years is to be more than innocent.

The Minister of State took the liberty to discuss the housing market, which I will also do shortly. I am unsure why turning a building society into a bank should be the business of the Minister of State with responsibility for housing rather than the Minister for Finance. In the interest of housing, perhaps the Minister of State will examine the extraordinary way in which banks that swore they were operating in a cut-throat competitive environment suddenly discovered they could afford to reduce their margins when the Bank of Scotland arrived. Why did this not previously happen? At the time of the euro changeover, why did it virtually take dawn raids conducted by the European Commission against our two major banks to persuade everyone that they did not need to make money due to no longer having currency risks? They were beaten by the EU into doing what was obvious to the rest of us.

In terms of housing, does the Minister of State consider the best way forward is to buy a house for €350,000, sell it in a year at 10% more and pay less tax on that €35,000 than an ordinary working person would pay having sweated for 40 hours per week to earn €35,000? Is that fair? It is happening.

People do not speculate in property for the rental income, which is just a convenient way of getting a tenant to pay an owner for the privilege of keeping their property secure while it inflates, giving the owner a capital gain on which he or she will pay tax at 20%. Will the Minister of State tell me if he thinks that is fair? We should not give the best rewards to people who speculate at zero risk but to people who work and who deserve them.

I thank Senators for their comments. It is fair to say there is general agreement with the objectives of the Bill. Senators raised some points of concern and suggested provisions they wanted to be included. However, some concerns voiced in the Dáil, in this House and outside in recent times are not relevant to this legislation. Points made about lending practices and charges are covered by special purpose legislation, such as statutes governing consumer credit and financial regulation. This Bill is not the appropriate place to address those. Issues relating to one particular building society have been referred to the financial services ombudsman, others are for the Financial Regulator to adjudicate on.

This Bill is framework legislation. It is not earth-shattering but is made up predominantly of amendments to the 1989 Act and is enabling legislation for the existing building societies, providing them with additional options. Although some of the points raised are not of direct relevance I recognise that people may have legitimate grievances about building societies coming together.

The fundamental point, which I think people understand but gloss over, is that we are not taking any action to sell or demutualise any building society. We are providing options. In future there will be four options to a building society. It can remain as a mutual organisation. It can demutualise under the existing protective provisions which have been in place since 1989. It can opt out of those provisions and be taken over immediately or it can opt out and sell at some later stage. We are providing building societies with the options. It is the members who make the decisions. The conversion scheme is a slow process and I accept that the directors have a lot of influence.

They have a lot of money.

They can put forward proposals but the ordinary members must accept them. If they do not like them they can say "No" and the right to say "No" is a powerful right in any walk of life. Some ordinary members might like to get their windfall but if they do not feel that what is on offer is fair and reasonable they can also say "No". They can also vote to get rid of particular directors, though I know that is difficult and there has to be a majority. The directors can put forward proposals but individual members must agree to them before they are referred to the Central Bank.

There are extensive and rigorous requirements for any such process. These involve consultation with the Central Bank, approval by the members, public notice, the right to make objections and representations and, ultimately, the right to petition the High Court. It is a long procedure and I do not deny that.

Senator Bannon said we had been talking about this Bill for a couple of years. It has been slow coming, even though not many building societies are involved. It has been tortuous and if there were more building societies it might have been easier to make decisions, for good or bad. There have been many discussions with individual Departments, with the Financial Regulator, the Office of the Attorney General and the building societies themselves. It has been quite difficult to arrive at a formula acceptable to the two sides.

One speaker said there was nothing in the Bill for the EBS, as though we were forcing it to demutualise. We are doing nothing of the sort. We are not forcing anybody and provisions have been included which will help building societies that want to stay mutual. They have expressed satisfaction with those provisions, seeing them as reducing the pressure that can be exerted by predators who might agree with Senator Brady that this is the end of an era. It is not the end of an era because, although there are three building societies at the moment and there might be two very shortly, the EBS is a large building society.

How long will it stay that way?

I do not know, but it is not quite the end of an era yet. The EBS is holding firm in its stance. Complaints about practices within the Irish Nationwide Building Society are for the financial services ombudsman and the Financial Regulator and some have already been adjudicated on.

Senator Ryan referred to the salaries of the managing directors and he may be right. Private companies have a keen focus on profit and making profits is usually written into their contracts. It is relatively easy to determine an appropriate salary based on what a person makes for the company in a given year. It is probably harder to quantify the value a person adds to mutual building societies or State bodies, for which I have worked all my life.

The chief executive of the HSE was deemed worthy of a bonus.

That appeared strange to some people, as I have learned on the doorsteps. Bonuses are harder to evaluate in those sectors but maybe it is a new trend.

They all think they are wonderful so they give each other bonuses.

Traditionally that did not happen. Senator Ryan spoke as if we were facilitating the sale of a State asset, if not actually selling it. We are not. We are giving those companies options. He also spoke about rental income. People who buy houses to let have to pay capital gains tax, as well as tax on income. Do I think it is fair? Such people have done well in recent times and the State likes people to invest because a significant number of people require rented accommodation.

The tax breaks should be on the rent.

When we changed the tax rules in the wake of one of the Bacon reports rents went through the roof. A fine balance has to be struck between the rental market and first-time buyers. Some people have made obscene profits in recent times. If a bit of sense enters the housing market those people might be hurt but that is the game they are in. When they are winning they do well——

When they lose they come looking for Government support.

They will not get it from me. We are simply providing options.

On the point regarding credit unions, it might seem strange that building society legislation comes under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government as the Department mainly deals with social and affordable housing, and trying to encourage the private market. This is a throwback to earlier years, when the proper home for the provision of mortgages and building societies was seen to be the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Government has decided in principle that the building societies code should be brought within general financial services legislation at a future date. Senator O'Toole suggested we should have a proper discussion next year on mutuality and related issues. I do not know if that is necessary because this issue might not be under my Department for long.

While I can pass on views, the credit union issue is more appropriate to the Minister for Finance. One of the sections in the Bill approves partnerships. I can foresee building societies using that section to have partnerships with credit unions and to work in that way.

I thank Senators for their support.

Question put and agreed to.
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