Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2006

Vol. 185 No. 16

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

Senators will recall that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003 provided for the establishment of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to administer the running of the Dáil and Seanad. The commission came into being on 1 January 2004 and was provided with the funds it needed to carry out its functions for three years from that date. That initial three year period will expire on 31 December 2006. Accordingly, an amendment to the 2003 Act is required to provide the commission with a fresh injection of funds so it can continue its work for a further three years from 1 January 2007. It is for this reason that the Bill is before the House.

Senators will agree that the commission which came into being three years ago has performed its job admirably, under the able chairmanship of the Ceann Comhairle. The commission is composed of 11 members, ten of whom are Members of either the Dáil or Seanad. They include the Chairman of Dáil Éireann, the Chairman of Seanad Éireann and one Member appointed by the Minister for Finance. I have the honour of being that Member. The remaining seven — four from the Dáil and three from the Seanad — are appointed from the ordinary Members of each House. The 11th member is the Clerk of the Dáil, who is designated as the Secretary General of the commission.

In the view of the Minister for Finance, the commission is entitled to great credit for the way it has carried out its functions over the past three years. I take this opportunity, as conveyed to me by many Members, to thank the staff of the Houses for the efficient, courteous and obliging manner in which they invariably discharge their functions.

The amount proposed for the commission for the three years 2007-09 is €393 million. This figure has been agreed with the commission and represents excellent value for the taxpayer. The responsibilities of the commission include payment of the salaries and allowances of Deputies and Senators and payment of the salaries of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas. There will be a general election in 2007 and a European election in 2009 and——

Mr. U. Burke

Can the Minister be more precise?

Mr. B. Lenihan

——as these will place extra financial burdens on the commission, the funding allocation provided for in the Bill will cater for them too. I can confirm to the Senator that there will be a general election in 2007. It is not the intention of the Government to amend the Electoral Act to extend the duration of the current Dáil by another two years, something that is permissible under the Constitution.

Mr. J. Phelan

In extraordinary circumstances.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is a very generous gesture of the part of the Taoiseach and the Government.

One item to note in the Bill is in section 3, which provides that as well as providing for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas and having charge of the Office of the Houses, the provision of translation services in respect of Acts of the Oireachtas is also a function of the commission. It is appropriate that the commission should have this function and it is taken into account in the funding to be provided.

In the same section, there is provision that the commission may prepare and publish guidelines for members of the Dáil and the Seanad regarding the use of services provided for out of public funds. This, which was sought by the commission, is an enabling provision; it will be for the commission to draw up and publish the guidelines. This must be done with full regard to the Constitution. The Bill also includes some minor amendments to a number of sections of the 2003 Act. In most cases their purpose is to provide clarification of functions or procedures where this has been considered desirable in the interests of full clarity and transparency.

In summary, I commend the Bill to the House to enable the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to continue with its excellent work which, Members will agree, has proven of great benefit to parliamentarians of both Houses over the past three years.

Mr. U. Burke

We will facilitate the passing of this Bill. The amendments dealt with in the other House clarified any area of difficulty that may have arisen since the publication of the Bill. There was particular concern that the core duties of the commission should not have contained the function of providing a translation service. I welcome the fact that this has been removed from the commission's core duties and included elsewhere in the Bill.

Like my colleague, Senator Mansergh, I am a member of the commission. Since its establishment in 2004, it has gone into new territory by taking on the responsibility of running the Houses of the Oireachtas. It was a daunting task. Most people welcomed it, in so far as the responsibility was removed from the remit of the Minister for Finance, who was requested to provide additional facilities on an ongoing basis. The initial grant of €295 million to run the Houses of the Oireachtas was a generous initial allocation. The commission went about its work with a consciousness of the need for value for money in the areas its dealt with. As a result, the unique position of having an underspend of approximately €10 million was a great achievement.

I endorse the Minister's comments with regard to the secretariat of the commission, the Ceann Comhairle, the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad and all members of the commission on how work was conducted throughout the last three years. If one were to single out one area where there have been notably positive results, it would be the Library and research facilities now available to Members. Staff in that area have done tremendous work. The area is only recently established and the staff have gone about their work in a professional way. Even at this early stage people are happy with the quality of the service. The detail which the researchers provide is fair and balanced. It is neither anti-Government nor anti-Opposition. It is factual across the board, which is very welcome. I hope they continue in that way into the future.

The other area dealt with in the recent past is the translation service. When the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs decided that all items in the Houses must be translated into Irish, he was over-enthusiastic about his own Department. He intended to give the commission the responsibility of translating, thus releasing his Department of the burden. It is a burden. Presumably, he wished to preserve his Department's allocation and use it in his usual fashion at either local or national level, more often the former rather than the latter. His intention was that there would be a translation service and it would be a core function of the commission. I am pleased the Dáil has amended the Bill in that respect. In the coming years the primary legislation will need to be changed in various other ways as we account for the need for change. Many other services were examined. We considered value for money regarding changing the printing facilities, which will be inaugurated from 1 January and which, we are told, will provide better service and greater reliability for the future. The provision of crèche facilities for Members and staff was welcome. That is up and running. We are confident that work can be done on the other issues. Seldom have issues in the commission caused serious division between the members. It was openly stated that seldom are representatives on the commission solely occupied with party political issues. We work in a comprehensive way as a group of people charged with responsibilities and carry them out to the best of our abilities.

The amendments put forward in the other House were largely technical. In a letter to the Ceann Comhairle of 7 December the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen said: "However, I am happy, in any event, to give you and the Commission my assurance as Minister for Finance that if the €393m allocation does over time look likely to be exceeded because of higher translation costs, then I will of course be willing to address the matter." That assurance by the Minister for Finance is welcome and should allay any doubt in people's minds about what is committed to paper and the actual outcome. A firm commitment by the Minister for Finance that he will provide whatever funds are necessary to provide a full translation is welcome. I welcome this Bill and see no difficulty in it, although future commissions will find it necessary to amend the original Bill for other reasons. I look forward to the easy passage of this Bill.

Dr. Mansergh

I welcome the Minister and the Bill. I compliment the Minister on one of the most succinct Second Stage speeches I have heard in this House and will try to follow his example. The establishment of the commission has vindicated itself over the past three years. It has given Members of the Oireachtas responsibility for the running of their Houses. Much good will has been shown over the years by successive Ministers for Finance. However the trouble with having the commission under a Minister for Finance is that it is like the definition of tsarist Russia, which is that since only the tsar is entitled to take decisions, no decisions are taken. Much good work has been done over the past three years. I have been honoured to be a member of the commission, as have Senator Ulick Burke and Senator O'Toole and the Minister presenting the Bill, Deputy Brian Lenihan. We have operated in a collegiate manner with a minimum of partisan differences. We all realise that, over time, we may find ourselves in different situations regarding Government and Opposition.

There have been real achievements, including beefing up the back-up services available to Members of the Seanad. Senators are entitled to a full secretary instead of half a secretary, with certain alternative options, including three quarters of a secretary and an allowance. That is an improvement. Reference has been made to the improvement in the research and library services. This has been initiated only recently and we will see its effect over time. We have Saturday opening and, even if those based in the country rarely avail of this, it is an excellent facility to have Leinster House open over the weekend. Like all changes in the public sector, some of these changes have involved delicate industrial relations negotiations. Those have been pursued to a successful conclusion. In some cases we have had rationalisation, such as in the printing services.

The commission was generously endowed at the beginning in 2004 by then Minister for Finance, former Deputy Charlie McCreevy. We have lived within budget. The main purpose of this Bill is to provide finance for the next three years. Enough has been said on translation and I agree with everything the Minister and Senator Ulick Burke said on that. The commission has also been involved in consideration of medium to long-term issues such as whether the car parking should go underground and the accommodation of both Chambers. There have been reviews with the help of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I pay tribute to them for the large amount of assistance and co-operation they have given us and to agencies such as the Office of Public Works. These issues will have to be discussed further and considered in the term of the next commission when it is appointed after the general election. In addition to meetings at least once a month there have been a number of committee meetings. Most Members sit on at least two committees or sub-committees so much work has been involved. We can look back with satisfaction on what has been achieved, accepting that many items that will help Members to improve their performance and contribution remain to be addressed.

Mr. O’Toole

I should also declare an interest as a member of the commission. I am delighted to see this legislation——

Ms White

How does one become a member of the commission? I am sorry to interrupt. Is that a point of order?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator may not interrupt.

Ms White

I want to know if the appointments are democratic.

Mr. O’Toole

I would like if the Senator were allowed to make her point of order.

Ms White

According to the Minister's speech, people are "appointed". How is a person appointed? Who appoints members?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Mr. U. Burke

Senator White was overlooked the last time.

Ms White

I would like the Minister to reply when he speaks.

Mr. O’Toole

The commission was established by legislation which we are changing today and part of that was the appointment of members of the commission. The commission comprises four Members of the Dáil and three Members of the Seanad. The Seanad representatives are elected by the Seanad Members, including Senator White.

Ms White

I was not invited.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator O'Toole without interruption.

Ms White

The Leas-Chathaoirleach should not be so stiff and starchy. I never voted for a member of the commission.

Dr. Mansergh

I was appointed by the Taoiseach.

Mr. O’Toole

I cannot do much about it if Senator White is developing amnesia.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator O'Toole without interruption.

Mr. O’Toole

By decision of the House Senators Ulick Burke, Mansergh and I were appointed.

Ms White

I did not vote for anyone on the commission.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator White cannot keep interrupting Senator O'Toole. She will have the opportunity to speak after him.

Ms White

Do not be so stiff, starchy and rigid. It is Christmas. Can we not have a proper debate?

Mr. O’Toole

Whether a Member decides to cast her vote is nothing to do with me. Members of the commission were elected by this House. Every Member was given notice of this on the Order of Business. It is on the record of the House. I will take pleasure in sending it to Senator White.

The commission does not micro-manage the House, which is very busy. Senator Mansergh referred to the work of the members of the commission. Last year I attended 138 meetings of commission business. There are sub-committees, a finance committee, and audit committee, an ICT committee, a management committee and a staffing committee. We met six times this week in dealing with the Bill.

I referred to the work of the Commission this morning. The Library and research facilities are working well and I recommend these to Members. The ICT facilities have been upgraded and staffing levels have been improved. For the first time ever a Member of the Seanad now has a person at his or her disposal full-time. Printing arrangements are better than ever. These are a number of the issues with which the commission deals. The commission has no role in the operation of the House. The Joint Committee on House Services has control of the operation of the bars, restaurants and coffee shops. The commission extends general functions to the Members, such as the extension of opening hours mentioned by Senator Mansergh.

It is important to note that we have set up strict financial management structures. We have had a number of meetings with the Comptroller and Auditor General to ensure we are conducting business correctly. We have worked within budget despite the prophets of doom who predicted that we could not. Today's Bill establishes the budget for the next three years.

One of the major issues raised was translation. I regret the way it happened. We tried to accommodate the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. Ní raibh an tAire sásta. Tháinig sé chun caint linn ach ní rabhamar in ann teacht ar aon chinneadh leis. Bhí sé deacair chun teacht ar cinneadh leis, nó chun aontas a fháil leis. An rud atá á dhéanamh ag an Rialtas an uair seo ná go bhfuil sé ag cur isteach sa Bhille rud nach cóir a bheith sa Bhille. Is rud é nach raibh sé in ann déileáil leis in aon chaoi eile. Ba mhaith liom leasú beag amháin a fheiscint. Nílim chun é a chur isteach mar tá sé ródhéanach. I líne 11, leathanach 4, deireann sé "to provide translation services from one official language into the other in respect of Acts of the Oireachtas". I would prefer to take a constitutional approach and substitute "to provide for translation services". I ask that this be examined at a later stage. The commission was prepared to provide for translation services but wanted to keep it as a separate budget. It cannot be controlled or budgeted for, it is an on demand service. There may be ten Bills that have to be translated in a week but no Bills for the next two months. The improvement made in the Dáil has gone some distance towards achieving that.

As a former trade union representative, I remember one matter that appalled me since entering politics. I met a Deputy who had just lost his seat. When he returned to the Houses some time later his possessions were in plastic bags. I also met a Minister who, on the days he lost his job, had to get a taxi home.

Ms White

That is democracy.

Mr. O’Toole

That is not the way in which we should conduct our business. On the dissolution of the Houses the staff continue for a number of weeks. Am I correct in interpreting the Bill as facilitating an orderly changeover? Will people have a number of weeks to tidy up their offices and wind up operations? Correctly, the Bill then suggests that an appropriate charge may be made for use of facilities during that period. I see the Minister of State nodding. It is important, and I speak as a disinterested Member. The commission provides a service to Members. On dissolution of the Dáil, Deputies are out of a job. This provides for an orderly arrangements to allow Deputies to sort out their affairs before the new Dáil comes into operation.

It is a privilege to be a member of the commission even though it takes up much time. We have seen improvements in staffing, ICT, printing and opening hours. Great support is provided by the flexible staff, including the ushers, the library and research services staff and administrative staff. New structures have been set up and the staff has been co-operative, going through the normal negotiation process. The commission has been a success but will face challenges to ensure it keeps up to date. The commission believes additional services must be provided to permit Members to carry out their function and match other Parliaments in the world.

Ms White

I cast no aspersions on the members of the commission but I am a democrat and wish to see elections. I like to participate in elections to ensure women are represented on the commission. Is there a woman on the commission?

Dr. Mansergh

Yes, there is, Deputy O'Donnell.

Ms White

I would like Senator O'Toole to listen to my contribution. The hours of this House are not family friendly. The Dáil and the Seanad——

Mr. O’Toole

On a point of order, this has nothing to do with the business of the commission, which has no control over the hours and sittings of the Houses. That is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is out of order.

Ms White

I discussed it with the Leader.

An Cathaoirleach

For the information of Senator White, who has been a Member for four years, the House decides the hours of business. Senator White has a say in that.

Ms White

I come in at 7.30 a.m. every day and I would like to get a cup of tea like one can do in any other self-respecting Parliament in Europe. There is no restaurant or café open until 9.30 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for the commission. It is a matter for the Joint House Services Committee.

Ms White

This is what I am talking about. I have gone to the research library.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Senator is looking for a cup of tea and has a complaint, she should go to the Joint House Services Committee.

Ms White

This House is not family friendly like the Scottish Parliament.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should go to the Joint House Services Committee.

Mr. U. Burke

The Senator is in the wrong place altogether.

Ms White

I am not in the wrong place. Will the Cathaoirleach bear with me for a minute or two?

An Cathaoirleach

I will if the Senator addresses the legislation in front of us.

Ms White

If I was on the commission I would insist that the hours of the Oireachtas be family friendly.

An Cathaoirleach

I have told the Senator the matter has nothing to do with the commission.

Mr. O’Toole

It is not the business of the commission.

Ms White

The Senator should not be dictating.

An Cathaoirleach

I have told the Senator.

Ms White

We should move on. As a business person I would raise the issue of paper wastage in the Houses and the number of trees that must be cut down to furnish such paper. The recycling service is not adequate in the House.

My assistant has an international B.Comm (Hons.) degree and an honours Master's degree but the salary is €21,000. A person joining the Civil Service would start at executive officer level at €28,000.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think that is a matter for the commission either.

Ms White

These people enable me to do my job.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have to take up the matter with someone else.

Ms White

I have tried and failed to get anywhere.

Mr. O’Toole

The Senator should take it up with the Department of Finance.

An Cathaoirleach

It has nothing to do with the commission.

Ms White

I raised the matter with the Leader this morning.

Mr. U. Burke

It is too near Christmas for this.

Ms White

The Oireachtas is a man's club and is not family friendly.

Mr. U. Burke

The Cathaoirleach should protect us.

Ms White

Deputy Fox has announced she will resign at the next general election because of the hours.

An Cathaoirleach

That is her business. The Houses commission has nothing to do with that. It is not my business.

Ms White

Senator O'Toole and Senator Mansergh should bring this to the commission.

Mr. O’Toole

On a point of order, I will not allow that on the record. The commission is not allowed, by virtue of legislation, to deal with hours, salaries or any of the matters mentioned by Senator White.

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Mr. O’Toole

It is unfair that the commission is being lobbied with this.

Dr. Mansergh

We rarely sit beyond 7 p.m.

Ms White

I am talking about the Dáil, which sat until 11 p.m. this week.

An Cathaoirleach

It has nothing to do with it.

Dr. Mansergh

The Senator was talking about the Oireachtas.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Senator White speak to the legislation?

Ms White

I am speaking as a business person.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Senator speak to the Bill, please?

Ms White

That is the Bill. I have material in front of me.

An Cathaoirleach

The matters raised by the Senator up to now have nothing to do with the Bill.

Ms White

They do.

An Cathaoirleach

No, I am making a ruling on it.

Ms White

I commend the new research service, the best innovation in the Oireachtas since I came here. It is headed by Madelaine Dennison and is revolutionary. Ms Catherine Lynch gave me brilliant support in producing my document, A New Approach to Childcare. On my Kilmichael oration, Barry Comerford gave me tremendous economic information to put out a new policy for the transformation of the island.

Mr. U. Burke

When will that be released?

Ms White

I will give it to the Senator tomorrow. I commend these people, along with Gráinne Cummins, on their work. I presume the commission introduced this new library service.

Mr. O’Toole

Yes.

Ms White

I do not shout at Senator O'Toole when he is speaking.

Mr. O’Toole

You interrupted me four times.

An Cathaoirleach

Senators should speak through the Chair and to the Bill. The Senator has one minute remaining.

Ms White

I spoke to the research office this morning when considering what to say about this Bill. Its interpretation was that the hours of this House——

An Cathaoirleach

The research officers have nothing to do with the commission.

Ms White

I wish to put on record at this time that this is not a family friendly Oireachtas. It is geared towards men's lives, with late sittings and late morning starts.

Dr. Mansergh

That is not true of the Seanad.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator John Phelan.

Ms White

I am speaking about the Dáil as well. It is part of the Oireachtas.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator White should resume her seat.

Ms White

The Cathaoirleach spoilt that for me.

An Cathaoirleach

Allow Senator John Phelan to speak.

Mr. J. Phelan

I do not have much to say on the Bill but I wholeheartedly welcome the Minister and the officials, as well as the amended Bill. There was a difference of opinion on the original Bill as drawn up but I understand it was ironed out in advance, with different amendments made to the legislation yesterday in the other House.

I wholeheartedly welcome the work of the commission, which has existed for slightly more than two years. We have seen in that period a tremendous improvement in the standard of services provided for Members. When speaking about services provided for Members I am reminded of a man I knew very well before I was a Senator, Mr. Pat Codd.

He was a member of this House in the 1970s and we had expressions of sympathy here for him. I recall discussing with him the facilities operating in the Seanad between 1973 and 1977. He told me that when he came into the Seanad he shared an office with seven or eight other Senators, and there was one telephone. I am not sure if they had even one secretary between the eight in the office. It is fair to say we have come on in leaps and bounds in the years since 1975.

I compliment and support the funding, as allocated by the Department of Finance, for the commission. There is an envelope of funding of more than €390 million which has been earmarked for the commission for the three-year period 2007-09, which gives the commission some degree of certainty about funding in the future. We are not relying on the whims of the Department of Finance or any Minister at a point in time. I welcome the idea that funding will be provided for the commission into the future on that basis.

I welcome the resolution of difficulties surrounding the initial proposed change to the core activities of the commission, which were to be amended to include the translation service. I know the translation service is an important facility and Members of this House, including myself, use it when Senator Ó Murchú or other colleagues make a contribution. I am not as fluent in Irish as I would like to be. The service is convenient and it is very appropriate to have such a facility available almost instantaneously.

It is important that the facility of translating all Acts and Bills discussed in our other national language is available. The commission agreeing to take over the responsibility for the running of the translation service in future is also important.

I welcome the research provision for Members, which was mentioned by Senator White. It is a tremendous facility and although I have not used it as much as Senator White, I have used it on a number of occasions. I would say to any Members who have not used it that it is a great facility. It is important that such a service be available. Members are torn in numerous directions with their duties and it is very difficult to have enough time in the day to do everything. To have the provisions for research, which follows the efforts of the commission, is welcome.

There is still room for significant improvement. Yesterday I listened to some of the debate in the other House and Deputy Cassidy, a former Senator, pointed out a number of inadequacies existing in the facilities available to Members. He singled out colour photocopying, an issue I had not noticed and which may seem trivial. I have a photocopier beside my office but it does not produce colour copies. I am sure the commission will take into account such apparently small considerations in the future in order to further enhance facilities.

I welcome the Bill and Fine Gael will facilitate its passage through the House. I am glad we were able to take it today as it appeared yesterday that an amendment would be made to the Order of Business in order that it would be taken tomorrow.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I thank Senators for the broad welcome they extended to the Bill. Senator Ulick Burke outlined the work of the commission, and he stressed the importance of securing value for money in its operation. This highlights that the commission is, in substance, a board of directors for the Houses of the Oireachtas. Members of the commission, while they reflect the party balance in each House and must necessarily reflect the composition of both Houses, have a separate and independent obligation to do what is in the best interests of the Houses.

A difficulty always existed with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges in each House. Given that those committees are so close to the action, a certain amount of hostilities take place. One of the advantages of the commission is that in a reflective way it allows Members to see where the long-term interests of the Oireachtas can be safeguarded and protected in our constitutional system. It is a valuable development.

As well as matters for which the commission is responsible under the primary legislation, it has a constructive relationship with the Office of Public Works on the management of the building in which the Houses are located. Far-reaching proposals were put forward by the Office of Public Works on the future development of those facilities, which is a matter the commission will consider.

Senator Ulick Burke raised the question of the costs of translation. Since the time of the first Dáil Éireann, before the present Constitution, the use of the Irish language has been part of the parliamentary language of the State. It was an innovation. The Constitution of Saorstát Éireann and our present Constitution proclaim Irish to be the national language. Historically the language always belonged to the Irish people, therefore provision must be made in the Parliament of the people for the translation of the language and the expression of the Acts of the Oireachtas in Irish or in English where the Act, as is occasionally the case, is enacted in Irish.

This involves a certain amount of work and investment. Rannóg an Aistriúcháin does sterling work for the Houses of the Oireachtas. In recent years, the courts and official languages legislation impose a far more precise obligation in the translation of enactments. We are at a stage where legislation must be translated within a short time of enactment which imposes a major additional burden on the Houses and a certain amount of discussion took place between the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and representatives of the commission about how to deal with this problem. I am glad to state the Minister for Finance gave a letter of comfort to the commission which Senator Ulick Burke outlined on the record of the House. It gives the next commission a fair wind on this subject.

Senator Mansergh maintained the experience of the commission vindicated the judgment of the Oireachtas in providing for the commission. Great tribute is due to the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevey, for his decision to establish the commission. It is often thought the Department of Finance was anxious to hold onto the work of supervising the expenditure in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I must state both Mr. McCreevey and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, were glad to be disembarrassed of this work and to entrust it to the commission. In many ways, the commission's relationship with the Department of Finance is like that of a line Department in the Government. However, it is under its own administration with members of the commission drawn from the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I heard the Department of Finance compared to many different entities and personalities but I never heard it compared to the tsar of Russia. It was an interesting and characteristic intervention by Senator Mansergh.

Dr. Mansergh

It is the decision-making process.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Senator O'Toole outlined the volume of work members of the commission undertook. I was struck by his intervention in that regard. As the Government nominee on the commission it strikes me how often we hold meetings to address practical problems which arise. It illustrates how the commission has been of benefit. When members of Oireachtas staff had to deal directly with the Department of Finance they must have suffered a great deal of frustration as a clear focus for making decisions on the Oireachtas did not exist. One of the benefits of the commission is that it allows future planning of the Oireachtas to be done strategically.

Senator White raised a number of issues. With regard to making the Houses of the Oireachtas family friendly, the commission is the body which established the crèche for Members of the Oireachtas which is an important dimension of being family friendly.

Ms White

Yes.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The wider questions raised by Senator White on the participation of women in politics and the hours worked by politicians are not questions for only the Committee of Procedure and Privileges in terms of how we organise our sittings. The questions must be also asked of the electorate and the constitutional order it ordained. We have a system of election by——

Ms White

The Dáil sits from 10.30 a.m. until 11 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Allow the Minister of State to speak.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Excuse me Senator, I am trying to respond to the point raised because it is serious and worthy of being addressed.

Ms White

I thank the Minister of State.

Mr. B. Lenihan

In the Constitution the people ordained the principal electoral mode for most elections is single transferable vote in multi-seat constituencies. Whether we like it or not, it entails an elected public representative maintains close and intimate contact with his or her electorate. The increasing proportion of the electorate in the workforce means of necessity a public representative must devote many evenings to maintaining contact with his or her electors. This is not family friendly for any representative, male or female. However, it is the nature of the system and of politics. If one is attracted to the vocation——

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think the commission has powers in this regard.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It does not arise. I apologise for trespassing. I stand corrected.

Senator John Paul Phelan referred to funding allocated by the commission and acknowledged the progress it made. I was glad to hear Senator Phelan state this because this is his first term in the Houses of the Oireachtas. He is fortunate because examining previous dispensations under which Senators and Deputies had to labour in the Houses, one sees the commission made substantial improvement in the conditions of service of parliamentarians.

One should casts one's mind back to the 19th century and consider those elected to the imperial Parliament in London who had to plead Ireland's cause without the benefit of a salary. Many members of the old Irish Parliamentary Party went to London at great personal expense and lived in extremely poor conditions there. They had to attend and make a democratic case in a Parliament dominated by many who did not have a wholehearted commitment to democracy.

When one considers the conditions in these Houses under the Free State and the present Constitution, there is no doubt the arrangements made now and provided for in the Bill mean a person with a calling to politics and who has the honour of being elected by the people can perform his or her duties with some modicum of support.

Question put and agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Mr. Moylan

Now.