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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Feb 2007

Vol. 186 No. 6

Control of Exports Bill 2007: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is my pleasure to bring the Control of Exports Bill 2007 before the House today for consideration and debate. The lessons of our recent economic history have taught us the advantages of operating in a truly global economy where opportunities are available for all countries to access open markets on an equal footing. As a strong supporter of trade liberalisation, Ireland continues to work with our EU partners and other like-minded countries within the World Trade Organisation to eliminate trade barriers and to promote the free movement of goods and services. However, our adherence to the principle of free trade is tempered by our equally strong commitment to arms control and global disarmament. The global community has a shared need for a stable, secure, inclusive and co-operative international environment. To this end, Ireland and other like-minded countries have undertaken to regulate trade in military goods and products that have both civil and military applications.

Ireland's existing legislation in the area of export controls dates from 1983. While a mere 23 years have elapsed since then, it is true to say that the past is indeed another country. In 1983, Europe and the world languished in the depths of the Cold War. After the fall of the Iron Curtain and the democratisation of central and eastern Europe, we had every reason to anticipate a period of sustained global peace and stability. Sadly, the tragic events of 11 September 2001 and subsequent events brought with them the realisation that new threats to international peace and security had emerged.

It has become apparent to us all that the enemy is no longer confined to massed armies without. Increasingly, we must guard against wanton acts of terrorism within, impacting on people as they go about their daily lives. Thanks to the wonder of modern communications, we cannot deny knowledge of atrocities perpetrated against innocent civilians in Darfur, for example, and other conflict zones. Closer to home, the horrors of the recent Balkan conflict, including the massacre at Srebrenica, have dispelled any assumptions we may have had that Europe has advanced to a state that makes it somehow immune from the inhumanities inflicted on the inhabitants of other continents. Our own recent history has also persuaded us that the ballot box, rather than the armalite, is the instrument best applied when seeking a lasting solution to conflict.

Another challenge to be faced has been the blurring of the distinction between military and civilian goods. Denied the possibility to import weapons directly, states and non-state parties have sought to develop their own weapons programmes by acquiring items not designed or developed exclusively for military purposes but which, nonetheless, can have military applications. Twenty years ago, we had a very clear understanding of what we wanted to control — guns, bullets, tanks or bombers. Again, however, we have been shaken out of our complacency. The attack on the Twin Towers was not perpetrated with a missile launched from a B1 bomber but with a civilian passenger jet. The London Underground explosives in July 2005 were encased not in weapons-grade steel but in nylon backpacks. We now know that we live in an era when anything and everything can be used as a force for evil. In the right hands, a hurley or a cricket bat can be wielded with sublime grace. In the wrong hands, up a dark alley, either can become a lethal weapon.

In light of these developments and concerned as to whether the existing 1983 legislation was adequate for the needs of a 21st century export control system, my Department in 2003 commissioned Forfás to undertake a review of Ireland's licensing system for military and dual-use goods. The overall objective of this exercise was to prepare a recommendation for the Government as to how best Ireland could modernise and strengthen its export licensing controls so as to ensure full compliance with our international obligations.

Forfás contracted Fitzpatrick Associates, Economic Consultants, in conjunction with the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a highly respected authority on issues such as conflict and security, to prepare a report with four specific objectives. The first of these objectives was to consult with Departments, end users, international organisations, specialised institutes — both national and international — involved in the licensing of military and dual-use goods and interested parties to determine the most appropriate export licensing system to be put in place in Ireland. The second objective was to prepare background material for a public consultation process in order to allow members of the public to make submissions or contributions on the optimal method of licensing military and dual-use goods. The third objective was to study international best practice with regard to export licensing control systems in other countries. The final objective was to submit a report outlining the results of both sets of consultations and the review of international best practice with regard to export licensing systems for military and dual-use goods.

The work of the consultants was guided by an inter-departmental group comprising officials from my own Department and the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Defence, Justice Equality and Law Reform, and the Revenue Commissioners. The group provided assistance and support to the consultants. However, I must emphasise that they had complete editorial independence and the report's conclusions and recommendations were those of the consultants. As part of this review process, roughly 40 public consultations were held with individual organisations in Ireland. These included exporters, representative bodies, State agencies and others. In addition, some 14 organisations responded to an invitation to members of the public to make submissions.

With regard to industry, the key lessons learned were that only a small number of companies had any involvement with the licensing system. Those companies that used the system were generally happy with it, while having some suggestions as to how it could be improved. Specific topics identified in this regard included more advance information on developments in the system, greater clarity as to what was controlled and with regard to end uses and the need for an electronic application system. Companies in general also emphasised the need to minimise bureaucratic requirements and pointed out the need to balance new restrictions against the possibility of making Ireland an unattractive location for certain highly mobile ICT activities.

As with industry, interest on the non-governmental side was limited to a small number of NGOs. In general, they were critical of what they perceived to be a lack of transparency regarding the decision-making process and outcomes in terms of detailed information on actual exports. They also criticised gaps in the system on such issues as brokering, licensed production overseas and service exports, as well as the absence of end-use monitoring and checking.

As part of the benchmarking exercise, a review of literature and information on export licensing systems in a range of countries was studied. A more detailed examination was conducted on the licensing systems in place in the United Kingdom, Austria, Sweden and the United States. It emerged that many of the problems considered by us to be challenging were also a cause for concern in other countries. These included controlling exports of intangible technology, putting into practice the EU's catch-all clause which controls non-listed items if they could be used in a WMD programme, enforcement of licence controls on non-compliant companies and promoting greater co-operation between licensing and customs authorities.

The final report of the Forfás review was published in May 2004. A key finding was that there was no one-size-fits-all solution for implementing export controls. Rather, it was vital to factor in unique national circumstances such as the legal systems and size and scope of the production activities affected when designing an effective system. The report identified a number of strengths and weaknesses of the Irish system. On the plus side, we have a relatively accessible, straightforward system staffed by knowledgeable personnel and the turnaround times for licensing applications stand up well to international comparison. Against that, however, the review recommended action to address a number of weaknesses, in particular the need for new legislation to address the needs of a modern, complex export control system.

Before moving on to consider in detail the legislative proposal now before the House, I would like to focus briefly on some of the other, non-legislative recommendations of the Forfás review and to brief the House on progress in these areas. In line with the Forfás recommendation, responsibility for the export licensing function has remained with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. However, much has been done to improve co-ordination with other Departments and State agencies, in particular the Department of Foreign Affairs, which is consulted on all licence applications with foreign policy considerations, and the customs authorities of the Revenue Commissioners.

The interdepartmental group established to oversee production of the report has remained in existence with a brief to promote and monitor implementation of all the review's recommendations. As this process nears completion, it is my intention to transform this group into a standing interdepartmental committee which will take forward responsibility for co-ordinating the work of the Departments and agencies in the area of export licensing.

A priority of the interdepartmental group has been the establishment of a technical advisory panel to act as a specialist resource for my Department on technical questions related to the licensing process. Acting on the recommendation of the Forfás review, a project to develop an on-line export licensing system has been under way for the past year. I am pleased to announce I expect this system, OELAS, to go live by St. Patrick's Day. We have worked hard to improve the flow of information to exporting companies and in this regard I was pleased to host our first ever export control seminar last June in Farmleigh at which I launched our users' guide and customers' charter to export licensing in Ireland.

Returning to the Control of Exports Bill, in January 2005 the Government approved in principle the drafting of new legislation in line with the recommendations of the Forfás review. As the House will be aware, all Government proposals for primary legislation are now subject to regulatory impact analysis, or RIA, to determine whether the new regulation will have the desired impact. RIA helps to identify any possible side effects or hidden costs associated with regulation and to quantify the likely costs of compliance for individuals or companies. It also helps to clarify the costs of enforcement for the State.

Prior to the general roll-out of RIA across all Departments and offices in June 2005, my Department participated in the pilot phase by offering the proposed Control of Exports Bill as a suitable test case. A RIA was undertaken which looked at three options for regulating export control. The first option was to maintain the status quo, namely, to continue to rely on the 1983 Act. The second option was to introduce new legislation which would update penalties, broaden the definition of exportation to include intangible transfers and introduce audit and inspection powers. The third option was to introduce new legislation along the lines of the second option but with added controls on arms brokering and technical assistance.

We quickly concluded the third option was the only one which would ensure Ireland's export control system was in line with best international practice and would enable us to meet our international obligations. The absence of any evidence to suggest Irish-based firms were engaging in brokering or technical assistance activities led us to determine that the economic impact of these new controls would be negligible.

Two key steps of a RIA are a public consultation process and an examination of enforcement and compliance issues. We were fortunate that these steps had been examined in some detail as part of the Forfás review. Working on the basis of the Forfás review recommendations and the findings of the RIA, the general scheme of the Control of Exports Bill was prepared in my Department and was approved by the Government on 19 July last. Since then, this Bill has been a priority item of legislation for publication by my Department. I am very pleased we were able to finalise the text of the Bill at the earliest opportunity and to publish it on 9 February.

I wish to explain the provisions of each section of the Bill. Section 1 sets out the definitions of certain terms. Where possible, we have aligned definitions with those in use in EU legislation. Section 2 sets out the general procedures for the making of regulations and orders and enables regulations and orders to be made for the purpose of giving effect to EU legislation. Section 3 enables the Minister to make orders or regulations to control brokering activities in accordance with the EU Common Position 2003/468/CFSP of 23 June 2003. It provides for controls to be imposed on brokering activities undertaken in the State and outside the State if undertaken by an Irish citizen or company. Section 4 enables the making of orders or regulations to prohibit or control the export of specified goods and technology. Generally, such orders will take the form of a list of goods to be controlled.

Section 6 makes general provisions with regard to the issue or refusal of licences. It will also enable regulations to be made governing licence application procedures. Section 7 deals with the appointment of officers authorised to enforce the Act and grants them necessary powers such as the right to enter premises, including vehicles, to inspect goods and technology and to require the production of documents and records. This section also allows for joint inspections with members of the Garda Síochána and Customs and Excise officers. Section 8 creates summary and indictable offences and significantly increases the financial penalties from a maximum of £12,700 under the 1983 Act to up to €10 million and-or five years' imprisonment for breaches of the Act.

Section 9 introduces a provision for an annual report on the operation of the Act to be prepared and to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. This is in line with a key recommendation of the Forfás review and responds to calls for greater transparency in the area of export controls. Section 10 is a standard provision for expenses. Section 11 provides for the repeal of the Control of Exports Act 1983 but confirms the validity of the Control of Exports Order 2005, SI No. 884 of 2005, which contains the current list of controlled military goods. Section 12 provides for the citation of the Bill when enacted as the Control of Exports Act 2007 and for its entry into force, in all or in part, to be made by ministerial order. I commend the Bill to the House.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern. I also welcome the Bill. I thank the Minister of State for his general overview of it and the detailed outline of what the various sections contain. I reserve the right to strengthen the proposed legislation through amendments on Committee Stage.

The Bill has many worthy aims. It will regulate arms brokering in Ireland and by Irish citizens abroad, and will introduce controls on the sale of technical help, software and other technologies that could be used for military purposes. It will also give Government officials the power to inspect and audit companies involved in exporting military goods or dual-use products. I understand these include chemicals, high-performance computer components and telecommunications software that have civil and military uses. Penalties for breaching the export laws are to be increased from a maximum of €12,700, the equivalent of £10,000 under the 1983 law, to a two-year jail sentence. One could say, "So far, so good."

The arms trade is, to put it mildly, an unpleasant business. Given the new uncertainty in the world presented by the perceived terrorist threat, the continued presence of armed conflict in many of the world's poorest areas, and the continued conflict in the Middle East, etc., many involved in the arms industry have become very rich. We are perhaps cocooned from reality in this country. As a small neutral state, some may believe that we have no arms industry, but that is not true. I thank Amnesty International's Irish division for its great work on this issue. Amnesty International points out that the quote attributed to the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, "Ireland does not have an arms trade", is deeply unfortunate and quite disingenuous given the legislation he is debating. Amnesty International states that Ireland has an arms trade and that the Government needs to acknowledge this fact if it is to be serious about controlling it. It is concerned that the content of the Bill outlined in the Minister's statement omits certain key requirements for an effective export and licensing control system.

One important area not addressed is a monitoring system for end users of these exports. The degree to which the legislation will exercise control over Irish citizens relocating outside Europe and thereby bypassing European checks is unclear. Fine Gael believes we must recognise that Ireland's existing export control system for arms trading is inadequate. There is a lack of transparency and accountability in the current system and this has created a situation whereby there is an absence of democratic overview by the Oireachtas and journalists. Members of the public cannot find out what is being exported from Ireland or what it is being used for.

In May 2004 Forfás issued a report entitled Export Licensing of Military and Dual Use Goods in Ireland. It stated clearly that it can be estimated that actual exports of controlled military products and components are €10 million to €20 million annually. The report also stated that the system has areas needing improvement, namely, the absence of dedicated primary national legislation governing the military licensing system, a number of recognised gaps in what is controlled under the legislation, scope for a more proactive approach, especially in the provision of advance information and advice, scope for greater involvement on an advisory and consultative basis to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in the range of relevant State resources outside the Department, and strengthening of the relationship between the Department and Customs and Excise to ensure the most effective controls possible are being applied.

Other areas to be considered include more proactive and wider enforcement, especially regarding possible exporters who are not applying for licences, rotation of staff at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Foreign Affairs, with a need for greater retention of corporate memory and expertise, increased and more structured access in the process to appropriate specialist technical and other expertise, and increased transparency of the decision-making process and criteria. I want the Minister of State to confirm that these weaknesses have been dealt with under the provisions of this Bill. Unless he can give such a cast-iron undertaking, we will seek to improve the Bill on Committee Stage.

The Forfás report states:

In modernising and developing the system, Ireland in common with other countries must balance two competing interests, namely:

the economic or "trade" interest of minimising administrative costs, reducing unnecessary regulatory burdens on legitimate exporters, and ensuring that Ireland does not unnecessarily reduce its attractiveness to international mobile investment, particularly in the area of high technology dual-use goods and services;

the "control" interest in terms of minimising the danger that any military or dual-use good produced in Ireland would find its way to internationally undesirable uses, meeting international legally binding and political commitments, and generally protecting and enhancing Ireland's good name and reputation.

If the Minister of State wants my advice, he would be better off concentrating on the latter rather than the former.

We must safeguard our economic competitiveness, our jobs base and the future of businesses in this country, but I need not remind the House of the horror unfolding in Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanmar and hundreds of locations throughout the world. We must ask ourselves if we can really have Irish participation, even in a minor way, on our conscience.

The need for this Bill arises from the fact that the EU does not yet have a common peace and defence policy. National governments decide on these issues and, as a result, there is a mishmash of approaches throughout the EU. The time has come for Ireland to define the circumstances in which it would depart from neutrality and take part in an EU defence entity. Instead of just accepting the terms of this future defence arrangement, Fine Gael advocates that Ireland take a full and active role in the development of this defence arrangement.

Our involvement in any future EU common security and defence system should be guided by five key commitments, namely, the commitment to adhere to the fundamental principles of the UN, the commitment to the pursuit of universal nuclear and biological disarmament and a promise never to use either type of weapon, the commitment to mutual defence with our EU neighbours but with specific provisions that would allow Ireland to decide whether to get involved in any conflict on a case-by-case basis, the commitment to providing peacekeeping and peacemaking operations, and the commitment to respect the right of other EU member states to enter other military alliances. The House might consider whether the terms of how arms are traded could be included in this.

I welcome the publication of this Bill and commend the Minister of State on his excellent speech which outlined the background to this Bill. Sometimes it is not always evident how legislation comes about. This Bill seeks to limit the operations of arms brokers within Ireland and stems from the EU Common Position on arms brokering of 2003 that seeks to limit the operations of arms traders within the European Union. It also seeks to limit Irish individuals and businesses that carry out the arms trade in third countries. This Bill considers the control and limitation of force in the world today. It seeks to limit those involved in the weapons trade by granting licences according to stringent guidelines and granting the State the power to prosecute those who pursue unlawful trading, which is a welcome measure.

This legislation depends on the adoption of the agreement by the various countries of the European Union, a matter on which I would like to question the Minister of State. A 2004 Amnesty International report on arms trading outlines the countries which have adopted identical or similar legislation to this in Europe, praising Belgium, Finland, Slovakia and Sweden. What other EU states have adopted this legislation? The Bill depends on the whole of the European Union adopting the same or similar legislation to ensure a level playing field. It leaves deals involving conventional weapons to non-embargoed destinations unregulated.

The legislation before us seems to recognise and limit this form of trade but the importance of the whole of the EU adopting this legislation means there is something of an inequality when one state does not. Ireland has been very well behaved in adopting EU legislation. Some feel we are more advanced than most European countries in adopting European legislation into Irish law. This is a worthwhile and well-intentioned Bill but I wish to know more about the attitudes of other EU states to it.

There is also the question of the technology used in weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt weapons of this nature pose a grave threat to international security. However, there is also a question of accountability. There is a concern that an individual or company which sells a computer or software, that is seemingly for normal use, to a particular country or individual could be found culpable if its technology were used by others in the construction of weapons. This gives rise to a sort of unintended consequence — one that is troubling and undoubtedly horrifying. However, the question remains as to whether an individual or company that sold a product in good faith is guilty of crimes under legislation such as that before us and this gives rise to many matters of concern.

The United Kingdom Government has not adopted legislation of this nature. The UK produces massive quantities of armaments, including that horrible invention the cluster bomb. Diana, Princess of Wales, who unfortunately died so tragically, was leading a campaign against armaments of this nature. She was a leading light in this regard and that did not go down well with the establishment in Britain at the time.

When I served as Minister of State with responsibility for trade and marketing, I was always conscious of the fact that we could not under any circumstances promote a product that could be used in the arms industry. We have high standards as far as neutrality is concerned. Ireland's economic progress has not been dependent on exporting arms or weapons of mass destruction. We do not produce bombs, bullets or guns. Young people should be proud of that for which the State stands. The Bill is important because it will ensure Ireland will not, under any circumstances, be used by brokers to facilitate the sale or distribution of arms or weapons to any other country.

The Bill is also worthwhile because it makes efficient provision in respect of the licensing of exports. I have never — either while I served in the Department or since I left — received any great level of representations regarding expediting licences for exports. Ireland is completely export oriented and it must ensure exporters are given every possible priority. We have in our midst Senator White who, in her life outside the House, is an extremely successful exporter of products. I refer to one product in particular in that regard, namely, Lir chocolates. I commend the Senator on the employment she has created in County Meath.

I commend the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, and, in particular, the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, on the work they have done. The Minister of State has invested a great deal of effort in the areas for which he is responsible since his appointment five years ago. I am aware of the effort required in this regard and I know one is often obliged to engage in extensive travel on behalf of exporters and to lead trade missions abroad. One receives very little recognition in one's constituency in respect of this work, to which one must be extremely dedicated. The leading of export delegations by Ministers and Ministers of State has given rise to the creation of numerous jobs.

As the days of this Oireachtas and the current Administration draw to a close, I take this opportunity to wish the Minister of State well in the election. I also wish him well regarding the ministerial appointments — for which I hope my party will be responsible — that will be made after the election. The Minister has acquitted himself well in every way in his Department. His work in respect of the areas of commerce and trade has been exemplary. I had the honour of accompanying him to Milan and of watching him perform at first hand. As he is aware, I am preparing a report on exports at present and I will submit it to him in the near future.

I commend the Bill to the House. I wish to express my thanks, appreciation and respect to the excellent officials in the Department. I reiterate that the Minister of State's contribution was exemplary in explaining why the Bill is necessary. I applaud the research carried out in conjunction with Forfás and the consultation that took place before it was decided to introduce the Bill. The merits of the legislation and the economic benefits to which it will give rise were all elaborated on by the Minister of State. His contribution explained the position very well to anyone who would not have any great knowledge of thefield.

I wish the Bill a speedy passage through the Houses. I hope it will be enacted before the Government leaves office. I compliment Senator Coghlan, Fine Gael's spokesperson in this area, Senator Quinn, who is——

A genius.

——a businessman with major interests, Senator Norris and others who have been always extremely co-operative in dealing with legislation that is of benefit to Ireland Inc.

I wish to share time with Senator Norris.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I congratulate the Minister of State on his contribution. I particularly liked his strong commitment to arms control and global disarmament. There is little doubt a great deal of committed and sincere thought went into the drafting of the Minister of State's speech.

Senator Leyden referred to the work done by the late Diana, Princess of Wales. I would like to think that we might be proactive rather than just being reactive. Rather than stopping the trade in arms, perhaps there is something more we can do. In that regard, I wish to comment on work relating to genetically modified organisms. One such organism that was developed some time ago impressed me no end. I refer to a particular type of grass seed which, as it grows, changes colour when it comes into contact with metal. The concept is that a plane can fly over an area where it is suspected mines have been laid and drop this genetically modified grass seed, which grows quickly. Where it comes into contact with metal, it will change colour and indicate possible sites where mines have been planted. This marvellous invention is a reminder that we should not just turn our backs on everything to do with genetically modified products because there have been some very healthy and life-saving developments in that area. I raise this matter because there is a danger that in concentrating our efforts on disarmament, we might be reactive rather than proactive.

I am generally in favour of the Bill, although I have some practical reservations about it. In some respects, I do not believe it goes far enough. The overall driving purpose behind the Bill is to prevent this country being used as a location for arms brokerage. That is an objective to which I have no problem in fully subscribing. However, it is in this respect that I believe the Bill does not go far enough.

Ireland should, as a matter of policy, set its face against having anything whatever to do with the production or sale of any product the main function of which is military. Some people would argue this flows from our stance on military neutrality but I do not take that position. Our neutral stance does not prevent us from having an army or from taking part in international peacekeeping missions, both of which require the use of military equipment. I do not, therefore, see how being militarily neutral can allow us to use military equipment but not be involved in producing it.

I would argue against Ireland being involved in any way in the production or sale of military equipment because of the moral standing that would be conferred upon it if it were to adopt such a position. If we have a stake, however small, in the production of military equipment, it will inevitably compromise our independence when we argue for the peaceful resolution of disputes — be they internal to one country or between different states — across the globe. By completely turning our backs on this industry, we would be able to claim a position on the moral high ground. Such a position would be totally consistent with the thrust of our foreign policy generally.

Up to now we have resisted taking such a position because of the possible impact it might have had on job creation. For many years, our attitude was that we were prepared to do anything, so long as it created jobs. That position was understandable when we had a serious unemployment problem and when there was a possible definite cost attached to adopting a principle of renouncing any involvement in the arms industry. However, we have moved on from the days when creating jobs was the be-all and end-all of everything. Now, we can afford to pick and choose the activities in which we should get involved. We should renounce any involvement with arms production.

I appeal to the Minister to consider, between now and Committee Stage, how to broaden the remit of this Bill in order that the regulations made under it might apply not just to the narrow issue of arms brokering but also to controlling activity in regard to the production or sale of military equipment. Making such a change would not commit this Minister or any future Minister to applying such controls, but at least it would provide the legislative framework for doing so at any time.

I have another reservation about the Bill, this time a matter of detail. Section 3(2) deals with the scope of the brokerage activities covered by the Bill. It applies to any such activities that take place in the State, which is obvious and not contentious. However, paragraph (b) of the subsection extends the activities covered to ones carried on outside the State but by an individual who is an Irish citizen or by a company registered in the State. I have no problem with the provision relating to companies but there are some questions about the provision relating to Irish citizens.

Many Irish citizens leave this country and are not seen again for the rest of their lives, even though they continue to be Irish citizens and hold Irish passports. My bemusement arises from wondering just how the State could control brokerage activities which are carried on by a person who has not set foot in this country for perhaps 20 or 30 years. How, precisely, could such a provision be enforced? If it cannot be implemented, it is bad practice to legislate for it.

On the other hand, this section makes no effort to capture brokerage activities carried on outside the State by someone who is a resident here, but is not a citizen. We have a possible control on such activities because of the person's residence, but under the Bill, as long as the activities are carried on outside the State, they will escape. The section, therefore, on the one hand purports to control activities by citizens who may not have had a connection with Ireland for many years, while it ignores activities carried out by residents here simply because they are not citizens. These anomalies could be resolved by simply substituting "resident" for "citizen" in section 3(2)(b)(i). The Minister should table an amendment on Committee Stage to that effect. It is worthy of consideration. If he cannot do so, I will introduce such an amendment.

I thank Senator Quinn for sharing his time. I welcome the Bill. I believe there is a role for the Seanad in refining and, perhaps, amending this legislation. This is an interesting situation which we are addressing for the first time. Ireland has a small arms industry. The Minister will be aware of the famous Timoney armoured car, tank and other products. There are very clever engineers in UCD. The problem is the destination of these products.

I recall with sadness the late Robin Cook making a stand for an ethical foreign policy while simultaneously continuing to export Hawk aircraft to Indonesia in the knowledge that they were being used against the civilian population of East Timor. This House took a particular interest in that situation, guided to a large extent by the remarkable work of Tom Hyland. I also recall raising the arms issue when the French were sending Alouette helicopters to the same destination. The French Prime Minister rebuked me and said the European Union was not a human rights organisation. Luckily the articles have been amended and there are now human rights protocols in the foundation treaties of the European Union. It was a cynical view; he was simply focused on the question of employment.

The Minister raised an essential point from the Irish point of view when he said that one of the challenges to be faced is the blurring of the distinction between military and civilian goods. Ireland is in some difficulty in that regard. Ireland produces material that might not immediately appear to be military hardware but which has a clear military application. Examples are computer hardware and guidance systems for weapons. These are being produced here. It is estimated that hundreds of millions of euro worth of the computer systems that are exported are used for the guidance of weapons, including weapons used by the Americans against people in Iraq.

At this point we reach a moral decision between employment or decency. We must handle this clearly and take a stand. We can try to safeguard employment or find other areas of employment. There may well be a cost but we should not have blood on our hands. I clearly recall that when Mr. de Valera's grandson, the Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, was on the Government benches in this House he spoke passionately against any Irish involvement in arms manufacturing. I wish the voice of the late President Eisenhower had been heeded when, in the 1950s, he warned the American people against allowing a takeover by what he called the military industrial complex. That is exactly what has happened under Cheney and Bush. It has driven America into a disastrous situation.

I agree with my colleagues that this situation must be examined. There is horrendous immorality throughout the world. I am half-English but one of England's largest income generators is arms. England is either the largest or second largest exporter in the world of the instruments of death. The licensing alone of exports is no good without an ethical framework. I recall the British Department of Trade giving a licence for a custom-made torture chamber for one of the Arab states. This occurred about 20 years ago although I do not recall whether it was for Saudi Arabia or Qatar. The obscenity of somebody sitting in comfort in an office in Whitehall and signing an export order for a torture chamber, custom made for these savages, is outrageous.

We should deal with this issue as a package. We should examine the issue of cluster bombs. The Independent Senators have a motion on the Order Paper dealing with the obscenity of these weapons. Pax Christi has been extremely useful in advising the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs on this issue.

We require a strong monitoring system for end use. We must know what materials may or may not be primarily seen as instruments of war. The end use is extremely important. We must consider this entire area as a package and take a determined moral stand against the proliferation of arms. We would receive moral credit if we did so on behalf of the majority of ordinary people who are against these. A small number of immensely influential people are making money out of this filthy trade.

I compliment the Minister on his first-class speech. It was eloquent, wide-ranging and interesting. The culture and drive of the Irish people was never to go abroad and behave tyrannically in other countries. We have never been marauders or colonisers. Throughout our history, we have gone to other countries only to educate. We are by our nature peaceful people. The same cannot be said, however, of all our colleagues in the EU, many of whom have colonised different parts of the world. That is why they are so rich and their buildings so exotic and elegant. Every time I visit London or Brussels, for example, I am aware that the beautiful buildings are there only because of the exploitation practised by Britain and Belgium in other countries.

This legislation imposes controls on the arms industry. I was not previously aware that Ireland produced arms. It is hypocritical that these provisions are championed by some countries at a time when a war is being conducted by the United States and others in Iraq in which thousands of lives have been lost. I was canvassing for a colleague last week in Dublin city when I met a man from Kurdistan who was granted political asylum here. When I asked him what he thought of President George Bush he said the latter did not invade Iraq to help the Iraqi people but because of oil. Every day, however, we are fed the propaganda that President Bush and company entered Iraq on a peaceful mission. The reality is that the instruments they use are for killing people.

We are doing our utmost to update our legislation to bring it into line with EU requirements. We know in our hearts and souls, however, that we cannot control where the microchips that are being made are used. I do not know what we can do about this. The Minister of State referred to the war that took place in Bosnia and Croatia. We all saw the television footage of Dubrovnik being blasted by guns, and many of us have visited that beautiful city since its restoration.

The way to solve political problems is by dialogue rather than by shooting and killing. When the British army entered Northern Ireland more than 20 years ago, its soldiers were welcomed by Nationalists, who hoped they would bring stability. What has happened in Iraq in this regard is a mirror image of what happened in the North. It is extraordinary that Britain has not recognised this. Its army went into Iraq to keep peace but we soon saw images of soldiers kicking in doors. Now there is civil war and a reaction against the British military. The people the soldiers went in to protect have turned on them.

Political problems are best solved by dialogue, communication and peaceful means. This seldom happens, however, as power struggles and selfish interests dominate. Where is the concern for ordinary citizens in these conflicts? In Bosnia, Croatia, Iraq and elsewhere it is ordinary people who suffer. The full story is yet to emerge about former Vice President Dick Cheney, Halliburton and the money being made from military contracts in Iraq. In the last five years, the failure of the major international players to solve by dialogue the problem posed by Saddam Hussein and the conflict in the Middle East has been disastrous. What ultimately had to happen in the North was dialogue. We must listen to people's concerns. Guns get us nowhere and only kill innocent people.

I welcome this Bill. It is an example of legislation which implements EU directives that have a relatively limited applicability to Ireland, in this case because we are not involved in any serious way in the arms industry. There is more than one dimension to this issue. When such legislation was considered 20 years ago, it was generally looked at solely from the perspective of Irish neutrality and our wish not to be involved, preferably even indirectly, in the arms trade.

In reality, some of the equipment produced in Ireland, by multinationals in particular, has multiple uses, and it is difficult to impose controls in this regard. If we want multinationals to come here, we must, within limits, be pragmatic. I have no problem whatsoever with the type of manufacture mentioned in this debate. Timoney armoured cars, for instance, have a role in peacekeeping. We must recognise that there are many legitimate contexts for the use of force, including UN peacekeeping.

The worrying dimension to this issue is that there are some states who are arguably trying to engage in the internationally illicit production of certain types of arms, nuclear weapons being the most obvious example. Even more worryingly, not all the international players are necessarily states. Various non-state groups have uses for arms. One could argue that much if not most of the violence in the world today is caused not by inter-state conflict but by various non-state groups operating across frontiers. We must guard against being unwittingly involved in such activity.

I entirely agree that the Iraq war is an object lesson in the limitations of the use of force even where initial military victory can be achieved relatively simply. I hope future leaders, particularly among our friends and partners but elsewhere as well, will relinquish the notion that it is politically advantageous to engage in foreign wars. At the end of Shakespeare's Henry IV Part 2, a royal brother, in conversation with the chief justice, talks about the king engaging in foreign wars as a distraction from domestic problems. Unfortunately that is not peculiar to the 15th century but happens in the 21st.

Can anybody honestly say that, had they foreseen the consequences of the invasion of Iraq, which we know was based on largely spurious grounds, they would have entertained that adventure? There is a lot to be said for the wisdom of President Bush senior in 1991 when the invasion of Kuwait had to be confronted. Nevertheless, the coalition stopped short at a certain point. Tony Blair is coming to the end of his career as British Prime Minister and we have reason in this country to be extremely grateful for his contribution. His achievements also include devolution for Scotland and Wales but it is a great pity that his historical reputation is likely to be marred and overshadowed by the adventure in Iraq.

It reflects well on the wisdom of Irish foreign policy and that of the European Union as a whole, though individual states have engaged in the coalition of the willing, that the emphasis is on political and economic solutions. One can never exclude the use of force as a last resort in certain situations, such as in the former Yugoslavia, but it should be a last resort rather than an option based on the belief, prevalent in some sections of the political establishment across the Atlantic, that if one has superior force, one must use it. I hope there will be a return to a more internationalist approach in which force is only used where there is unequivocal justification for it, rather than with a view to redrawing the map of the Middle East ideologically. I do not know how many people over the centuries have succumbed to the snares and delusions of that policy. They believe they are free to do so and will not meet any resistance but war is no more certain than a horse race. Unpredictable things happen which blow people completely off course.

This piece of legislation is fairly and squarely within our traditions and those of the EU, whose ethos and spirit are not far removed from our own. I accept that other overlapping organisations have a different ethos.

I welcome the Minister of State. I will address a couple of issues that have arisen during the course of the debate. I am glad the Minister of State outlined the historical context because the world has changed over the past 20 years. It is almost impossible to believe that individuals and states now have a common enemy, which is like a thief in the night. The concept of standing armies facing each other is, since 9/11, completely outdated and we are now constantly under threat from mad individuals, assisted by Internet technology and the breakdown of social order in some former Soviet states which provided access to military weapons technology.

I am not a great fan of consultants and, in light of the information the Minister of State has provided, there seems to be a vast array of expertise not only in his but in many Departments. Why was it necessary to engage a firm of consultants to provide the benchmarking guidelines for the Forfás report? I welcome the fact that the interdepartmental group will continue to function and will have technical assistance as it is important, given the changing nature of the threat we face, that there are controls, not only within the Minister of State's own Department, which is responsible for issuing permits, but in the form of cross-departmental co-operation.

I agree with the Minister of State on section 3, which concerns extraterritoriality. Not only does it address the case of an Irish citizen engaging in transfers of weapons or military hardware outside Ireland but criminal elements who use some European countries to access weaponry to threaten our own citizens. There was such an example this week when a criminal was set free by a Dutch court, much to the consternation and anger of the Garda Síochána, which had provided all the information it felt was necessary for a conviction. However, the Dutch police moved too quickly and apprehended the alleged criminal entering an apartment rather than inside the apartment. As a result, he was able to argue in court that the weaponry found in his apartment did not belong to him and was allowed to go free, despite the fact that, as reported in the newspapers, the Garda Síochána has evidence that the man in question is responsible for murder in Ireland. The Bill does not address just the larger military threat from al-Qaeda but from individuals who threaten the basic democratic fabric of this State. These criminal elements attempt to bypass Irish law by exchanging arms outside the country.

Ireland has a proud record in such matters. We do not do war but peace, and we do it very well. The overwhelming will of the Irish people is not to be involved in military alliances. At the same time I share some of Senator Coghlan's views that, as a sovereign, independent, proud and confident nation which has taken its place at the European Union table, we have shared responsibilities for world peace and security and should not lose sight of that in an onward rush to protect neutrality at all costs. There is overwhelming evidence that we must be seen to stand up in a shared heritage with our European neighbours. I welcome the Bill and commend it to the House.

I thank Senators for partaking in the debate. I listened intently to the points made and questions asked. There will be an opportunity to go into them in greater detail on Committee Stage.

Senator Coghlan asked about monitoring and transparency. Each year, an annual report must be laid before the Oireachtas. We will have an opportunity to review it and Members may raise then any questions they have.

End-use monitoring is important, although it is not easy to see everything that happens at the end. Everything that can be done will be done to collate information from colleagues in Europe and further afield. The sharing of information on end users of potential concern is a strong component of preventative action by the European Union and the international export control regimes. Where there is any reason to doubt the bona fides of the end users, we simply deny an export licence. We also deny export licences where we have any reason to believe there is a risk of diversion of goods to an end use or end user other than that stated on the licence application.

There is a code of conduct on arms exports that accords with criterion 7 of the European Union Code of Conduct on Arms Exports. This code binds us to take into account such criteria as the existence of internal conflicts, regional peace and security and respect for human rights when considering whether to permit the export of controlled goods. There is also a responsibility on the exporting companies to ensure their products are not used for nefarious purposes. Close co-operation exists between the EU member states and like-minded countries in the international export control regime. We do not operate in isolation.

Senator Leyden asked about mines. Most of the equipment we export is for mine clearing and mine sweeping, so even though the equipment may end up in a war zone, it is used for the good.

Mines and cluster bombs are produced in Britain.

We are not in Britain. Senator Quinn raised the issue of brokering, saying the Bill does not cover the whole remit of military goods. This Bill covers all military and dual-use goods. He also made a distinction between residents of the State and citizens, a point we will consider before Committee Stage.

Senator Norris mentioned the Timoney armoured personnel carrier. These are used for peaceful purposes, not to promote war. He also raised the issue of dual-use goods and the need to seek assurances about civilian end use but, as I explained, that area is monitored. He asked about a code of conduct and there is one in place.

Senator White correctly pointed out Ireland's history. It is right that we remind ourselves and others that we are unique in comparison with many other countries operating in this area in that our approach is quite different. That is why we are trusted more than countries that were colonisers. We were one of the few white colonised nations of the world.

Senator Mooney asked about analysis and costings. We carried out the regulatory impact assessment referred to in my speech. The approach taken in the Bill looks at all aspects and goes through the necessary assessments to ensure we get value for money.

I look forward to discussing the Bill in more detail on Committee Stage and I thank my officials for their comprehensive briefing. The Bill will stand up to scrutiny and I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

On Tuesday, 27 February 2007.

When is it proposed to sit again?

On Tuesday, 27 February 2007 at 2.30 p.m.

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