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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 23 Mar 2007

Vol. 186 No. 15

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, Health Bill 2006 — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude no later than 2 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 2, Asset Covered Securities (Amendment) Bill 2007 — all Stages, to be taken at 2 p.m. and conclude no later than 4 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage which will conclude no later than 3.30 p.m., and Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken at 3.30 p.m. and conclude no later than 4 p.m.

It is my intention to amend the Order of Business if the relevant Minister is available to take No. 2 earlier than the scheduled 2 p.m. start. We are endeavouring to ensure the Minister will be present in the event that our deliberations on the Health Bill conclude early.

I appreciate the Deputy Leader's comments about keeping business under review throughout the day.

A serious situation has arisen in respect of the State attempting to recover costs from victims. Whatever about the legal niceties involved, there are approximately 450,000 schoolchildren in the care of the State. At least, that is what their parents believe. The Department must be given some regulatory and supervisory role. It cannot merely hide and abdicate its responsibility. Senator Lydon is nodding in agreement with me.

I made no comment on the matter at all.

The Taoiseach stated the question of costs would be approached in a sympathetic manner. However, the State is threatening to pursue certain individuals. This is making a mockery of the apology offered by the Taoiseach on behalf of the State. Has the Government issued a declaration of war on the victims of abuse? Despite the apology given, what is happening is unconscionable. The State must accept responsibility for the abuse, where it occurred, of innocent children. Leaving aside the legal niceties, we must remember that it is the State which pays the salaries of teachers and which paid those individuals who were abusers. That is all I want to say on the subject. I look forward to hearing the Deputy Leader's response.

What steps is the Department of Transport taking to ensure the benefits and challenges of the new open skies policy will be passed on to our many regional airports? We require a fully integrated approach in this regard but there is no evidence of such an approach as yet. Everyone is aware of concerns in the Shannon region and the south west as a result of this change. There was disappointment that Shannon Airport would not be offered one of the three new Aer Lingus routes. At this juncture, I am more concerned that there be a fully integrated approach and the regional airports will not be abandoned as the Cinderellas of the system. Lastly, what remaining Bills is it intended to take between now and the recess?

I join my colleagues in expressing real concern and horror at last night's programme. A Member of this House, Senator O'Toole, played a dignified role in that programme and told it as it is. We must listen to him as a former General Secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation.

I raised this matter yesterday. It seems extraordinary that the Government picks up the bills. So many of these matters are in the domain of the church. It is time we had proper national education which is not only funded but also controlled by the State. In saying that I am not inimical to the teaching of religion, but if one pays the bills, one must accept the responsibility. It is extraordinarily cowardly of the Government to try to shift this to management committees which often are made up of parents who voluntarily give their time. It is an outrage to go after them and send these kinds of terrifying letters.

I noted in the programme that one splendid woman courageously spoke out and stated that the Government is now abusing the abused all over again. It was also valuable to hear Colm O'Gorman, who is not only the inspiration behind One in Four from which he has withdrawn for the period of the general election but who is also chairman of a school board, warn that if this trend of terrifying people by sending threatening and bullying legal letters is to continue, it may be difficult to get boards of management together next year. Why should anybody put their head on the block in that way?

We have a good Minister for Education and Science in Deputy Mary Hanafin. She is forward looking. She understands the situation. She has a background in teaching. I doubt very much if she is behind this. I am not making any criticism of her specifically, but I would like to see her in the Minister's chair in this House responding to these concerns and questions and giving Members an undertaking, which they should demand, that such persecution of people who have already been abused will stop.

The other matter I want to raise is the question of the Government of Palestine and I want to ask for a debate on the Middle East. There is a legitimate Government of Palestine. Hamas was elected. This was not accepted by the West, especially by the United States of America, and there is an extraordinary situation where there is now a government of national unity. The State Department of the United States at least is making some small degree of movement, but it is only speaking to the Fatah section, and this looks almost like an attempt to split them.

We in this country have refused once again to take a moral lead. It seems we are tied in to the European Union's policy, which is a disgraceful and morally bankrupt one. They are speaking, for example, about the prospect of a legitimate government, which means we are agreeing that the duly elected Government of the Palestinian people, in their misery, oppression, degradation and discrimination, is not the legitimate government. It most certainly is. The hopeful sign is that the Palestinian Government, including the Hamas elements, have given a de facto recognition to the state of Israel. They have spoken about the 1967 borders and about support for the initiative of the Quartet, etc. Had we taken this hardline attitude in the North of Ireland, we would not be in the positive position in which we are today. Shamefully, there is still nothing about the lifting of sanctions against Palestinian people which, as we will be aware, are hurting them.

Is Senator Norris looking for a debate on this issue?

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for concentrating and focusing my attention in his usual way. I am most definitely looking for a debate and those are my reasons.

I, too, want to express my abhorrence at the letter sent on behalf of the Department of Education and Science warning claimants to drop cases against the State on abuse in schools or face significant bills. Apart from the insensitivity of that letter, given that the O'Keeffe case has been appealed to the Supreme Court, it is premature for the Department to make that kind of statement in letters to claimants.

The idea that the State is not responsible for what happens in schools and for the education system is incredible, as other Senators have stated, given that the Department pays the teachers' salaries, funds buildings for schools and pays students' capitation fees. The Department and the Minister take credit for anything good that happens in schools. If a board of management gets a school extension, the Minister is present to open it and take the credit. The Minister also takes credit for matters such as good school results, yet if anything bad happens in schools, the Department is not willing to take any of the responsibility. I find that incredible and unsustainable. I cannot believe that could be true. As others have stated, it makes a mockery of the Taoiseach's apology for abuse in State institutions.

I noted a headline in today's Irish Examiner about Fianna Fáil concern over private hospital plans. The article referred to Deputy McGuinness who has expressed concerns about proposals to collocate private hospitals on public lands. I note the Minister, Deputy Harney, has stated that contracts for the construction of the private hospitals will be signed within the coming weeks. Fianna Fáil forms the overwhelming majority in the Government and if contracts are signed within the next weeks for private hospitals to be built on public lands, that is the responsibility of Fianna Fáil because it forms the majority of this Government. Its members cannot speak out of both sides of their mouth. They will be largely responsible for any contracts signed on the collocation of hospitals in the next few weeks.

Every time one turns on the television or radio or one picks up a newspaper, there is something about the upcoming general election. In 1991 we were in election mode when, in the dead of night, the house of a person who was mandated to his local town council and to his county council was broken into and he was brutally murdered. I refer to the late Councillor Eddie Fullerton. That was almost 16 years ago and yet no closure has been brought to the matter. His family has lobbied Members of this and the other House to endeavour to exhort us to do what we can to bring closure to this horrendous incident for his wife and family. No doubt collusion was involved because there were three men in armed combat gear seen getting into an unmarked RUC car.

This House has a proud tradition in championing such cases as the murder of Eddie Fullerton and I ask the Members of this House to call on the Minister to set up a public inquiry to establish the facts of this case so that the perpetrators of this dastardly act can be brought to justice and closure can be brought to his family. He cannot be brought back, but at least justice will be seen to be done and this House will continue the proud tradition of championing such causes.

I join the Acting Leader of the Opposition, Senator Coghlan, and others who expressed serious concern about the Government's abdication of responsibility for people who have been abused at the hands of schoolteachers. I was shocked by last night's excellent programme. It is unacceptable that the Government would take the stance it has taken. This will have serious repercussions for the individuals who have suffered and for boards of management. Clearly, our first concerns have to be for the victims and we must ensure their hands will not be tied in any way in terms of taking cases. However, boards of management throughout the country may also be in jeopardy when they are replaced next year. We have to give serious consideration to the possibility that many of the volunteers who previously gave freely of their time may decide not to continue serving on boards. Given that they could be facing enormous bills, I can understand why they would make such a decision and agree with speakers who have said the matter is the responsibility of the Government of the day. The Government pays for the schools and teachers' salaries, so I cannot see why it should abdicate its responsibilities. We require clarification on the matter, this morning if possible, and the Minister for Education and Science needs to come here to clearly outline the Government's position because the situation presented last night is unacceptable.

I support Senator Glynn's call for an inquiry into the murder of Councillor Eddie Fullerton. I raised the case previously in this House and will continue to do so because it contains several sinister elements. The deafening silence has to cause concern among all of us. This man was involved in the democratic process and his murder took place in the middle of an election campaign. In normal circumstances, when a public representative is obstructed or, as in this case, murdered, people close ranks to protect the democratic system. With the exception of Donegal County Council, which took a unanimous stand and called for an inquiry, that did not happen in the Fullerton case. While we all hope to see closure of the Northern problems over the coming days, cases like this remain to be dealt with.

The House has previously discussed the Pat Finucane case. The British Government had given an undertaking to the Government that it would co-operate in setting up an inquiry into the murder of Mr. Finucane. Subsequently, the British Government brought in legislation to ensure the inquiry would be restricted. I am aware our Government is particularly concerned about that. A similar situation has arisen in respect of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and one has only to meet the relatives of the victims to see the torment and trauma they are suffering simply because they believe the inquiry is not being pursued with a sufficient degree of intensity. We should bypass the British Government and raise the case internationally if it does not give sufficient co-operation because we cannot allow these situations to continue or totally ignore the suffering of our own citizens. Even though we are pleased with the progress being made and hope to see closure, it is not possible to build on that for the future or bring cohesion unless we deal with the outstanding issues. That is why I fully support Senator Glynn. This is not a matter which should be put on the long finger. It has to be addressed as a matter of urgency and we have to demonstrate that we are not turning a blind eye to the horrific cases which have caused so much suffering for families.

The recent Environmental Protection Agency report on private water schemes indicates that e.coli pollution from sewage is getting worse, despite the incredible amounts of money being spent. The episode of pollution of public water in the Galway area with cryptosporidium is the worst ever reported in the country. We have to take this issue seriously. Will the Acting Leader invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House to explain how these serious issues have arisen? Cryptosporidium is the parasite which causes scour in calves and the cost to the tourist industry and businesses in the west of Ireland must be shocking. Water polluted in that way is largely unusable. We need to address this issue because it appears to be getting worse rather than better despite the facts that large amounts of money are being spent and that the EU directives on it are now decades old.

With regard to last night's programme, I too was disturbed about the abuse of young children by those in authority. However, I have great confidence that the Minister for Education and Science understands the background to the matter. It would be useful if she came into this House to explain the issues differently from the way they were spun last night. The manner in which the issues were presented last night would disturb anybody, so I think the Minister would be pleased to give a very good explanation.

I concur with previous speakers who expressed concerns about the threat of legal costs being awarded against victims of abuse and the implications for boards of management. I have been a member of my local board of management for the past four years and am aware of the voluntary efforts made by many of the people involved. If the issue is not resolved, a serious problem will arise when boards of national schools are reconstituted next year in regard to persuading people to take up positions.

I am not surprised by the comments I read in today's newspapers. Senator Tuffy referred to my constituency colleague, Deputy McGuinness, who is a frequent critic of the Government despite never having taken the opportunity to vote against it on any issue. I share the concerns held by many others in regard to handing over public grounds for private hospitals. Yesterday, the Minister for Health and Children appeared on the radio in my region to explain the benefits of handing over a site on the grounds of Waterford Regional Hospital and was asked the number of beds which would be released in the hospital. Even though a site worth many millions of euro is to be handed over to private individuals, only 70 beds would be released. It is a shocking decision and I hope the contracts will not be signed before the election. I know they will not be signed after the election, when a new Government and Minister will be in office.

I missed Tuesday's Order of Business, during which the ongoing difficulties in Zimbabwe were raised. We should have a discussion as soon as possible on the continuing deterioration in that country's political situation. Strong links have been built between Ireland and Zimbabwe, particularly in the area of agriculture, and I was recently contacted by several people who spent lengthy periods of time there. It is a shocking example of a country which was financially sound and doing very well only to fall to pieces over the past couple of years due to bad governance. We should not allow the situation to continue without at least having an earnest discussion which would allow us to air our points of view of thedebacle.

This week, the Taoiseach made several comments regarding voting. I was appalled by the comments of the Taoiseach yesterday when he said he intended to hold the next general election on a Thursday. That is a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise many thousands of students. Regardless of the exact date of the election, third level students are likely to be doing examinations. If Dubliners want to leave the city on a Friday evening, they can do so because they can make arrangements to vote earlier in the day. The past two elections were held on a Friday. This is a deliberate attempt by the Government to remove a significant number who would automatically be inclined to vote against it. High turnouts traditionally favour the Opposition, regardless ofthe jurisdiction or which parties are in government.

Is the Senator seeking a debate?

We are having one.

If the Government is serious about dealing with the issue of low turnouts in the Dublin area, it should consider having a two-day poll, as happens in many other European countries. Students should not be disenfranchised if the Taoiseach's proposal is put in place.

In the Dáil earlier this week the Taoiseach was questioned about e-voting in the 2002 general election. He replied that there were no problems. I was aghast, as I watched his reply on the monitor in my office. A total of 1,200 votes more were counted than had been cast in Dublin North, while 750 fewer votes were counted in Dublin West than the number cast. My colleague, Senator Terry, lost the final seat by 200 votes and she has a particular interest in this issue. How dare the Taoiseach say there were no problems in 2002 and then gloss over the facts relating to the e-voting fiasco?

There is great disturbance about the date on which the Taoiseach will call the general election. He should call it for 3 or 4 July, when the leaving certificate examinations will have been completed and everybody would be free to vote.

I support Senator Glynn's call for an inquiry into the death of Eddie Fullerton, whom I knew. He had a big beard and looked a bit rough but he was a lovely, kind and gentle person. He was a very decent man who was savagely murdered by loyalists. If he had been a member of a party other than Sinn Féin, an investigation would have been carried out long ago. It is not too late, as Senator Glynn said, to bring closure to the matter and hold an inquiry for the sake of the family, if nothing else.

I would like to correct the record because Senator John Phelan was referring to electronic voting as opposed to e-voting. The issue of e-voting has not yet been discussed in either House and it is time it was introduced in order that people could vote no matter where they were. If we can pay our mortgages over the Internet, we should also be able to vote. That would eradicate the problems associated with electronic voting machines. That is the future.

I noted with interest the points made by Senators Ormonde and Norris about the liability attaching to school boards of management and the State's refusal to acknowledge its responsibility towards children who were abused while in the care of State-run schools. However, there is a sense of déjà vu. This argument was made during the Mrs. McCole case when a Minister acted solely on legal advice. My Fianna Fáil colleagues should read the speeches they made about Deputy Noonan during that period because they are walking into a similar scenario on this issue, with legal advice taking over from political decision-making, which is not acceptable. This issue is being dealt with by the State Claims Agency. I would like someone to come into the House to explain how the agency takes the Government to court repeatedly and which Minister is responsible for it. As I understand it, the agency is attached to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions which issues letters on behalf of the Government. A man was recently suspended from the office, as he was connected to an investigation into child pornography. I asked the Minister whether that person had anything to do with legislation in this area and was assured the person had not. Did that person have anything to do with the decision to fight these cases?

Persons who serve on boards of management, similar to those who serve on State boards, can be sued individually or as part of the board and should be indemnified by the State against any liability that might arise. This should be a condition of sitting on the board of management of a school. Is the political system in charge of decisions to fight claims? Is the State taking the decisions? The membership of boards of management comprises teachers, parents and other members of the community who do their very best. Members should recall the Mrs. McCole case because the same scenario is unfolding in abuse cases. The then Minister for Health and Children doggedly followed the advice of his lawyers. People know what happened them and Fianna Fáil used the case very effectively at the time against Deputy Noonan. The same speeches need to be made on this issue.

Will the Deputy Leader invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the House? We are approaching the end of the 29th Dáil and Seanad during which there has been unprecedented prosperity, opportunity and social inclusion. It should be recognised that Ireland is regarded as a shining light throughout the world. We should discuss with the Minister how this progress can be sustained. We also have peace, together with prosperity. Given that there may be a breakthrough in Northern Ireland on Monday, I ask the Deputy Leader to send our best wishes to those involved.

Senator Glynn made an eloquent and sincere call for an investigation into Eddie Fullerton's murder, while Senator O'Murchú referred to the Pat Finucane case. I was impressed to hear on radio earlier that three suspected terrorists had been arrested in Britain and would be held by the authorities for 28 days. Imagine what they could do in that time. We passed legislation a few years ago to provide for the detention of suspected drug dealers for seven days and the detention of suspected terrorists for three. The British can hold them for 28 days. It is a reminder that if they had the will, they could investigate the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and the Eddie Fullerton and Pat Finucane cases. They have more powers to do so than they used to have. I support the call made.

The Institute of Fundraising of Northern Ireland has called on people to check the identity cards of charity collectors. I am not sure what the legislative position is in this jurisdiction. I am always concerned when I put money in a bucket for a collection about how much is given to the charity. Senator O'Toole has pointed out privately that in parts of Britain collections where a percentage is paid to the collector are banned. Such legislation should be considered here. Between that payment and VAT, charities have not been helped in the manner they should have been. We should examine this issue in the near future.

The ruinous situation in Zimbabwe is very sad but, unfortunately, the root cause of the problem was the failure of the British Government at the time of independence to establish and fund a land commission.

The State must be more than a legal entity. I find it very difficult to stand over or defend in any way threatening legal action against people who suffered child abuse to deter them from taking legal action. I agree with the point and have held this view for a very long time having worked with Government. The State has duties towards its citizens. It must act with moral authority and take a larger view than narrow legal advice designed to protect the financial self-interest of the Exchequer and, perhaps, of taxpayers.

I find it very difficult to accept that the State, which has been responsible — or co-responsible if one wishes to be strictly accurate — for so much of the progress which has taken place over 40 years, has nothing whatever to do with some of the negative things that have occurred. I speak as a member of a board of management and I am not looking for indemnification. If one takes on responsibilities in regard to voluntary boards of various kinds, unfortunately one takes on certain risks.

As everybody in the House knows, I am no Irish scholar but I deeply regret the decision of UCD to cease teaching and researching old and middle Irish.

Hear, hear.

No self-respecting country should decide to neglect or ignore, perhaps for commercial, cost-benefit or utilitarian considerations, the roots of its civilisation. Does that perhaps lead to situations which have caused grief for people who are not anti-road or anti-progress in any sense? In the case of the M3, souterrains were destroyed. Why were they not uncovered during preliminary surveys? I do not want to be too negative about it but there have been a number of incidents which we have discussed over recent years where we have been a bit careless of our culture and heritage. Often we are able to correct the situation, as in the case of the Moore Street house. If we do not have a body of experts, even if they must be subsidised, who have a knowledge of what are for most of us very abstruse things but which are, nonetheless, important in terms of value, culture and civilisation, we will not maintain the type of balanced identity we all want.

I support my colleagues in regard to an inquiry into the assassination of Eddie Fullerton who was a member of Donegal County Council and whom I met. He served that body very well. If any other elected representative had been killed, there would have been an inquiry by now. This is not the first occasion on which my colleagues have sought such an inquiry. A limited, preliminary inquiry, similar to the MacEntee inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, could be carried out into all the facts surrounding the assassination of Eddie Fullerton. That would be a step in the right direction.

I support Senator Norris's call for us to recognise the new Government in Palestine. We should grasp the nettle on this issue because it is an independent state. Following its establishment, this State was anxious to get recognition throughout the world. De Valera and others sought that recognition and received it from the United States of America and other countries.

The majority of the Palestinian Government does not belong to Hamas and the president is from the Fatah party. I made the point to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, that we should use our influence in the European Union to provide funds and support the state of Palestine and its Government. No government would satisfy the Israelis except a government which not only is pro-Israel but also is under its control. It does not really want the establishment of an independent Palestine.

I add my voice to the call for recognition. I spoke to the Palestinian ambassador after I spoke in this Chamber last Tuesday and he was very impressed by the fact this House has supported constantly the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. It is very helpful to the Palestinian Government that an independent State such as this and an independent Chamber such as the Seanad would voice their opinion. As a result of the Internet, what is said in this House is transmitted throughout the world almost immediately. That is significant and we should not fail to highlight the commitment of this Chamber to the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.

On No. 2, the Asset Covered Securities (Amendment) Bill, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance has undertaken to try to come to the House earlier. We will keep this matter under review and if it is necessary to amend the Order of Business as we come towards the end of Second Stage of the Health Bill 2006, we will do so to bring No. 2 forward. I hope the various spokespersons who will contribute to the debate on the Asset Covered Securities (Amendment) Bill will be able to fit in with those plans.

Senators Coghlan, Norris, Tuffy, Terry, Ormonde, John Paul Phelan, O'Toole and Mansergh all spoke about victims of abuse and the letter which was circulated. The one thing I would have to reject on behalf of the Government is that it is a declaration of war on these people. The Taoiseach has expressed his sympathy.

I take the point made by Senator O'Toole about previous incidents of a similar nature. Senator Mansergh probably made the most telling point of all when he spoke about the common good and the need for the Government to be conscious of it and to exert its moral authority. This is a classic case of that. I am sure the State must be guided by the advice it receives but at the end of the day, the Government makes decisions.

Like others, I am a member of the board of management of a primary school. As members of the board, we were left in no doubt as to our legal responsibilities. One such responsibility related to the use of school property after hours which the board wished to facilitate. However, from an insurance point of view, liability would have fallen on members of the board of management and it became very difficult. I accept the point that people act voluntarily. None of us sought indemnity but we were conscious of the fact we needed procedures in place to protect us in the event of a claim against the school.

The best way to deal with this matter is to attempt to get the Minister to come to the House, explain it in detail and give Members the definitive position on behalf of the Government.

A stern and very severe warning was issued.

Senator Coghlan also raised the open skies policy and the agreement which has been reached between the European Union and the United States in this regard. It will be entirely beneficial for Ireland. Aer Lingus has already said it will introduce flights to Washington and other US cities. It will have a hugely positive effect on tourism. I understand the concerns of the regional airports but if the business grows at the rate we expect, there will be benefits for everybody, including the regional airports. If everybody gets a bigger slice of a bigger cake, that will be——

There is no evidence of an integrated approach yet.

There is no question of abandoning the regional approach when it comes to developing our tourism industry and inward travel into the country.

Senator Coghlan raised a matter pertaining to the Bills that are outstanding. Next week, the House will hold the Committee Stage debate on the Health Bill and the Second Stage debate on the Foyle and Carlingford Fisheries Bill and the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. The Private Members' business will pertain to ethical foreign policy. The Committee and remaining Stages of the Carbon Fund Bill will be debated, as will the Roads Bill. Moreover, the House will complete the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill by Thursday evening. Members will also debate the Medical Practitioners Bill, which they are already dealing with, and the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. The Defence (Amendment)(No. 2) Bill must come back from the Dáil. Other Bills include the European Communities Bill, the Broadcasting Bill and the Statute Law Revision Bill, which Members have dealt with and which will come back before the House. These are some of the Bills and I also expect the Criminal Justice Bill will come back before the House.

Did the Tánaiste not mention a new Bill on the Order of Business in the Dáil yesterday?

There may well be such a Bill but I am not aware of it. I will try to clarify this matter for the Senator.

An ethics Bill.

The Senator may be correct. I must clarify the matter for him.

I would have expected the Acting Leader to be aware of the Tánaiste's intentions.

The Acting Leader, without interruption.

I am trying to be helpful.

While we speak to each other regularly, our intimacy may not extend to that level.

I could not comment on that.

Senators Norris and Leyden raised the very important matter of the situation in the Middle East and in Palestine in particular. I suggest that Private Members' business next week will provide an opportunity to deal with some of the matters raised. One curious point that is difficult to understand is that the United States is one of the leading advocates of the need for democratic systems around the world. However, it strikes me that when the outcome of the democratic system is not to its liking, it takes a different view on the matter. After all, Hamas was elected. I am unsure about the remark made by Senator Norris regarding the de facto recognition of the Israeli state by Hamas.

However, the Government has been entirely consistent over the years, as has this House, with regard to its support for the Palestinian cause, the roadmap and the two-state solution. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has also been highly vocal in terms of his support for the Palestinian Authority. Ireland has continued to provide humanitarian aid in this regard and will act in a sovereign manner. While the European Union may state what it wishes, it does not have a coherent foreign policy until such time as the constitutional treaty is signed. However, Ireland has its own sovereign position and will continue to articulate it. Everything that has been said by successive Governments has been to indicate support for the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian cause. This House in particular has expressed such a view.

Senators Tuffy and John Paul Phelan raised the issue of Fianna Fáil concerns in respect of private hospitals. Naturally, I cannot speak for Fianna Fáil. I am sure it will clarify its position over the weekend. I was asked to vote for someone on the committee of 22.

By proxy.

I received some e-mail correspondence to that effect and I wish to inform the person concerned of my disappointment that I cannot support him in this regard.

Senator Dardis should join us.

If public lands lie idle, it seems sensible to use them, if possible, to improve the health services by providing additional beds and releasing public beds for occupation by public patients. Compromises are made within coalitions and I hope Senator Coghlan and his colleagues will be able to experience such benefits at some time in the distant future.

Senator Dardis will teach us.

Senators Glynn, Ó Murchú, Lydon and Quinn all spoke about the tragic case of Councillor Eddie Fullerton. This case merits inquiry and I will try to further that. I take Senator Glynn's point that all Members must do what they can in this regard. The Pat Finucane case also has relevance. Senator Quinn made an important point on the capacity of the British to deal with suspected terrorists. They can lock them up or inquire into their activities for 28 days, which is also relevant in this context.

Senator Henry raised the issue of the Environmental Protection Agency report on private water schemes. There have been some rather disappointing results in this regard over an extended period. As for the issue regarding cryptosporidium, I find it difficult to understand why the source cannot be found. While I would have thought this was a straightforward exercise, perhaps that is not the case. I will try to get the Minister to come to the House to deal with the issue.

Senators John Paul Phelan and Mansergh spoke on the appalling situation in Zimbabwe. It is terrible to think that members of the opposition would have been ill-treated to the extent that their lives appear to have been put at risk. As Senator Phelan noted, it was a highly productive agricultural country and many Irish people who farmed well there were obliged to leave the country. It is appalling to think that the country is literally unable to feed itself when it has such an extraordinary capacity.

It is unable to support itself.

People who were prepared to remain there and contribute to its future were effectively thrown out. This was an appalling thing to happen.

Senator John Paul Phelan also spoke about the forthcoming general election. The Taoiseach dealt with that matter adequately. I am sure that were the election date to be changed from Thursday to Friday, similar criticisms would be made. Senators Lydon and O'Toole also spoke about electronic voting. I suspect that if the manual system were examined in the same manner as the electronic voting system, one would find similar inconsistencies regarding the record of those who came in to vote and the number of votes cast.

However, there would not be as many. There are differences.

I suspect anomalies exist in both systems. Senator Hanafin requested the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to discuss the country's progress and to chart the way forward. This would be valuable if it could be fitted into the busy schedule of legislation before the House, which must have priority.

I strongly support Senator Hanafin's comments regarding the prospects for Northern Ireland. Members hope that by the time they return to the House next week, a power-sharing Executive and the democratic institutions to which the North is entitled will be in place. I strongly endorse the Senator's comments in this regard.

Senator Quinn discussed the Institute of Fundraising and the percentage of charity collections that goes to collectors. While Ireland has some regulations regarding the organisation of collections and people must be registered to carry them out, I am unclear as to the answer to his question. I will endeavour to find out. One must get a licence from a Garda superintendent to conduct a collection in the first place. I agree that all Members have been lobbied regarding VAT, and this must be looked at.

Senator Mansergh raised the issue of old Irish in UCD. This is an important matter as something similar took place in Trinity in respect of drama. Members should read a paper written by Sean Barrett in Administration. This issue goes back to a decision made by a different Government. Some of us who were then on the Opposition side of the House were active in the debate at that time. It appears the arts are becoming increasingly curtailed in the pursuit of the sciences. While it is good to pursue the sciences, it appears that in spite of very large increases in the moneys being given to the universities, it has been suggested they are underfunded and this is the reason such departments are closing. This is wrong.

As for the M3 and our cultural heritage and archaeological remains, the National Roads Authority recently produced reports on the remains that have been found during the construction of several of its roads. Such finds are simply littered throughout the country and are everywhere. It is impossible to build a road anywhere without uncovering something of significance. Obviously, there is a compromise between progress and preservation.

It is important for Members to acknowledge the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Rome, which will take place during the weekend, and its significance on the lives of us all.

Order of Business agreed to.
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