Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 2008

Vol. 191 No. 14

Order of Business (Resumed).

Senator David Norris

I would welcome a debate on the decision made by University College Cork, which has behaved extremely responsibly. It did not pre-empt legislation in this area because such legislation does not exist, despite the efforts of my colleague, former Senator Mary Henry, who produced a Bill in this regard that was not adopted by the Government. University College Cork did not pre-empt anything and has not pre-empted a Supreme Court decision. Were a case to come before the Supreme Court, there is nothing to prevent it from making a decision. Faced with a vacuum in the law, University College Cork did the honest, decent and courageous thing by implementing a regime whereby the free range that existed previously now is properly addressed and tabulated. I have no problem with a debate although I will be on the other side to my good friend, Senator Mullen. However, I applaud University College Cork.

Senator Alex White referred to a serious economic commentator and there may be such — I do not know. However, the significant point is that no one, whether a serious economic commentator or otherwise, has managed to suggest a clear vision of the way out of this mess. That is significant. I agree with what I understand to have been Senator Harris's intention in stating the situation now is so dangerous that it is time to consider a national Government, using the talents of the various parties, in order that everyone will pull together if, as Ministers have asserted, the position is so serious.

Senator Terry Leyden

There is a surplus of talent.

Senator David Norris

In the absence of such leadership or analysis of the financial situation, one is left dealing with the queries of individual people. I conducted a radio interview the other day with an economic commentator and while I do not know how serious he was, he came up with a serious question. If a deposit taker, that is, the bank that has accepted the money, goes into liquidation, how long will it take to recover individuals' funds and what level of administration will be involved? He provided the specific example of one of his clients who is considering the building of a new family home in 2009. Were such a person to put €100,000 into one of the wobbly banks, as it were, will he be able to get it back out? What delays will there be? These are real and immediate problems. I second Senator Mullen's amendment and apologise for not so doing earlier.

I seek a debate on the Middle East. I have asked for such a debate a number of times. Two days ago, the Americans invaded Syria. They crossed the border with a fleet of helicopters, landed in broad daylight and machine-gunned a family home, resulting in more than half a dozen deaths, a number of which were of children. This took place without discussion. How long will Bush be allowed to commit murder in such a way? The voice of protest must be raised because that man is in the final, dying days of his disgraceful presidency and I hope he does not do something catastrophic as a diversionary tactic.

Senator Jim Walsh

I am getting the same vibes as Senator Healy Eames, which is that a small minority of teachers have stated they certainly should forgo the scheduled increases. I have told them this should not apply simply to teachers but throughout the public service. I agree with Fine Gael in respect of a pay pause for two years in the public service. However, this will not be sufficient. Senator O'Toole observed the benchmarking process was akin to taking money from an ATM machine. He could have added, but did not, that the taxpayers' PIN number was being used. This money must be given back to the taxpayer.

Senator John Paul Phelan

The Government approved it.

Senator Jim Walsh

If we failed——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Government negotiated the deal.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Walsh, without interruption.

Senator Jim Walsh

I am on record in this House——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Who negotiated the deal?

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Walsh, without interruption, please.

Senator Jim Walsh

I am on the record of this House over a long period, as stating the benchmarking process was not sustainable. It was done at a time when public finances seemed to indicate it was okay to so do. It is not okay now and this must be recognised.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Your Government negotiated it.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Buttimer, please.

Senator Jim Walsh

The public pay bill should be reduced from its current value of €19 billion to approximately €15 billion, thus saving €4 billion, and another €4 billion should be taken from the rest of current expenditure by cutting the waste which can be seen by all in every nook and cranny. Such waste occurs in every big organisation and I do not suggest this pertains solely to the public sector as it also applies in major organisations in the private sector. However, the latter are driven by the bottom line and are taking the pain at present. Unless such measures are applied in an even-handed fashion across the entire public sector, it will be very serious.

It does not surprise me that people in the public sector object to my argument but we have to face up to the challenge. If we fail to address these problems within the next two years, we may be forced to join the three countries which are currently under the protection of the IMF. A condition of IMF support will be draconian cutbacks in public expenditure. We have an opportunity to do this ourselves but if we fail to meet the challenge, we will suffer down the line.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

You did not think that over the past 11 years.

Senator Jim Walsh

Unfortunately, the young people who are now in school will be consigned to a lifetime of unemployment or emigration. I do not want to see that happen again in my lifetime. Rather than taking the soft options——

Senator Paudie Coffey

That is what the Government is doing.

Senator Jim Walsh

——I want us to make the hard decisions that are evident and necessary. It behoves us all to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

You cannot even spell "hard decisions".

Senator Jim Walsh

I support Senator Mullen's call for a debate on embryonic stem cell research. I, too, was appalled at what happened in UCC. I acknowledge what Senator O'Toole has said regarding our failure to bring legislation through these Houses. I am not persuaded by the spokesman for UCC who argued that it is an acceptable procedure because the embryo is destroyed prior to the removal of the stem cell strips. I see that as analogous to somebody who is caught with child pornography denying his or her instrumentality in the abuse of the children concerned because he or she came into the possession of the pornography subsequently. It does not stand up to argument.

Senator Ivana Bacik

That is an appalling analogy.

Senator Jim Walsh

We need a debate and we need action.

Senator Alex White

Get your foot out of your mouth.

Senator Eugene Regan

I find it the height of political hypocrisy that Senators opposite can wring their hands, make speeches and disavow the policies pursued by Governments over the past 11 years despite having supported them at every turn. We have seen examples over the past year of Members protesting on the streets and voting otherwise in the House. This hypocrisy should be exposed.

Last week a view was expressed in the House that Fianna Fáil is the natural party of Government.

An Cathaoirleach

Questions should be addressed to the Leader.

Senator Eugene Regan

I have not yet introduced my question.

An Cathaoirleach

I would appreciate it if the Senator put a question to the Leader.

Senator Paul Coghlan

The question is being formulated.

Senator Eugene Regan

A poll published in The Sunday Business Post suggested that support for Fianna Fáil stood at 26%, whereas Fine Gael was at 33%. I am aware this is only a poll but it dispels the myth that the political structures of this country obey a natural order. Many people feel disenfranchised because Fianna Fáil has led successive Governments for the past 11 years. Many organisations, including sections of the media, expect Fianna Fáil to remain in power and therefore accommodate that party.

In respect of the protests against education cuts which are being held outside these Houses today, similar protests were held before the previous general election, yet the leader of INTO — one of our principal educational organisations — welcomed new commitments from the then Minister for Education and Science in respect of class sizes and increased funding for schools even though the Government had failed to meet the commitments it made over the preceding five years. If that is not sucking up to teacher, I do not know what it is.

If Governments do not honour their commitments, they should be thrown out of power. That is the only way we can ensure a healthy democracy. We cannot have an accommodation of a Government that has failed to meet its commitments in a time of plenty and yet takes on board new commitments.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point.

Senator Eugene Regan

My question for the Leader——

An Cathaoirleach

That is what I want to hear.

Senator Eugene Regan

——is whether he would accept, in light of last weekend's polls, that Fianna Fáil is not the natural party of Government.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

I hope the Leader will arrange an urgent debate on embryonic stem cell research. The decision by the governing body of UCC is not acceptable. It was pre-emptive and, more than that, it was undemocratic. There are 40 members on the body and only 16 voted in favour.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Nine members abstained.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

That means that 24 did not vote in favour of the decision. That suggests that 24 people are well aware of the widely and deeply held ethical views on this issue, not just in Ireland but throughout the world. We remember the European debates on this when many countries put their heads above the parapet and were not prepared to provide finance to this type of research.

UCC has a very proud record but it did no credit to the record by what it did in this case. It is particularly important that it takes a step back and parks this issue for the moment. UCC is well aware that it is not acceptable in the present climate. There are also legal issues involved. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, as well as the Minister for Health and Children, should be involved in this debate. I hope the Leader will take on board the strong views that exist. The last time we debated this the majority of people on both sides of this House were opposed to stem cell research. Others may have an open mind on it, but it is totally wrong for UCC to act in this manner. I hope the message goes out from this House that UCC should take a step back and not go ahead with this decision, which was undemocratic in the first instance.

Senator Feargal Quinn

I add my voice to those calling for a debate, as sought by Senator Rónán Mullen, on stem cell research. Those of us who do not know enough about this topic would welcome this debate. Senator Mullen referred to profound ethical questions, which is exactly what we should be debating in the Seanad.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Hear, hear.

Senator Feargal Quinn

It is a debate that would be very welcome because we would all learn a great deal from it.

I support Senator Alex White on the economy and banking. We have had debates on these matters in the past few weeks but we should have regular debates on that situation. There is a danger we will talk ourselves into a much deeper recession than we might otherwise have. We can do something about it, there are questions we should be asking and we should be debating them in the House now.

We made decisions on a number of areas in the good years. We made decisions on benchmarking, public sector pay and public sector pensions. We also made decisions on having the highest minimum wage in Europe. Some jobs do not exist at certain rates of pay. If we are to ensure that the actions that were good in the good years are not necessarily the correct thing to do in the future, let us have that debate. We should have that debate on a regular basis in this House during this period. This is a time not for optimism but for realism tinged with optimism rather than the pessimism that we hear too often in these Houses.

Senator John Hanafin

I share in the calls for a debate on the decision by UCC on embryonic stem cell research. Given that the best possible result would be that the Minister would be present, the Leader might give an undertaking that at the earliest possible date, when the Minister is present, the debate will go ahead.

It was very disappointing to see UCC take the opportunity to promote embryonic stem cell research when all the evidence indicates that it is an attack on the most vulnerable, the embryo, and it is the most unsuccessful medical practice. UCC wishes to join the long list of failures of other universities in the mad frenzy to do what the current scientific thinking and teaching is, which has produced nothing. The only success has been through adult stem cells where a natural bind has been found with existing stem cells. Embryonic stem cells are too pluripotent and they are not able to stop the division and sub-division of those cells and where they do so, it causes cancerous cells. There have been no successes anywhere in the world.

I am interested to note how economic commentators can comment on the Irish situation, especially because we have handled this current crisis well. I am thinking of our nearest neighbour, the United Kingdom, where Alliance & Leicester, Halifax, HBOS, Lloyds and many others have been either merged or acquired. Northern Rock was taken over but not one Irish bank has been taken over or has failed. In other words, the decisions we have made have helped to ensure the stability of the Irish banks, and they will continue to do so.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I add my voice to the calls for a debate embryonic stem cell research. I was disappointed to discover that the board of governors of UCC took a vote on this issue yesterday. It is a very sensitive issue and I am concerned the board of governors has taken action in what is essentially a legal vacuum. It has gone on a solo run on an issue which is very sensitive and which could be very controversial for this country.

I support the calls for a debate on this issue. Will the Leader facilitate it at the earliest possible opportunity? As parliamentarians, we must face up to this issue. We need proper legislation governing this area. We cannot have universities going off independently and on solo runs in this very sensitive area.

I wish to speak about a sector which has been spoken about very little since the budget, namely, agriculture. That sector is suffering serious cuts across the board. However, one of the main casualties of the budget are the young farmers who are about to enter the sector and who will keep agriculture alive. The slashing of the farm installation grant and the early retirement scheme in the budget will have wide implications in rural Ireland. I am sure Members on all sides would agree with, and be concerned about, that. There are no incentives for young farmers to go back to the land. Farmers who had worked on constructions sites are now leaving those sites owing to a lack of work, are looking to go back to the land and need support. Will the Leader arrange a debate on this issue as soon as possible?

Some Members have spoken about benchmarking and public sector reform. I issued a report only yesterday on the salaries and bonus schemes of the managers and the directors of services of local authorities. Salaries range from €100,000 to €200,000 per annum plus bonuses and expenses. I have no problem with somebody being well paid but with the 7% cut in the local government fund, frontline services will be the first to take a hit. I support the call by Senator Harris and others for a debate on public sector reform and salaries. The issue must be addressed now before it gets completely out of control and our economy goes down the tubes.

Senator Larry Butler

I am glad a sense of realism has crept into the debate. We are in a very poor financial state and must look at all the options. Senator Quinn is right that all the options must be examined. The health, education and other budgets are out of control.

Senator David Norris

The Senator's party is in Government.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Butler, without interruption.

Senator Larry Butler

I never interrupt anyone in this House and expect the same courtesy when I speak.

I support Senator Harris in that we must examine the public sector, including the health service and any area which has a major budget. If we do not do so, we will not be able to support the social welfare and education services. It was grand when we had the Celtic tiger which was purring away and producing money but we must now live in the real world. Nobody will bail us out. If we are serious, we will adjust all our budgets, in every service we are delivering. We cannot afford it. We are borrowing approximately €6 billion and unless we come to grips, that cannot be sustained. I call for a debate on the economy at which the Minister must be present. I am glad the Opposition is beginning to realise that we have serious problems and we will have to sort them out together.

Listening to Senator Regan speak about Fine Gael's improvement in the polls——

An Cathaoirleach

Leave the polls out of it.

Senator Larry Butler

Senator Regan can gain some satisfaction from that, but he has a short memory. It is not too long ago that he went to the polls.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want to go down that road. That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach

The elections are over. We are not discussing elections, we are on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions).

Senator Ivana Bacik

I welcome the distinguished members of the Ugandan judiciary who are guests of my colleague, Professor William Binchy from Trinity College Law School.

I would welcome a debate on embryonic stem cell research, but I would like it to be conducted from a position of education and in an informed manner, not in a spirit of ignorance which, unfortunately, we have heard informing the debate today. I have heard suggestions that UCC has taken some pre-emptive step in allowing stem cell research, but the reality is that until now any researcher at UCC could import embryonic stem cells.

Senator David Norris

Exactly.

Senator Ivana Bacik

What has happened is that in the absence of legislation, UCC has had to move and it has introduced a more restrictive regime and has done so in a responsible and measured fashion. I am not an expert on medical research, nor are the other speakers here, but I am very much persuaded by the fact that the academics on the board of UCC, the persons engaged in the research on the medical side, are supporting the policy. People from an ideological position, particularly the religious side, such as the Archbishop of Cashel and Emily, opposed it.

Today, there is a more pressing issue. I support calls for a debate not on stem cell research but on education cuts. There will be people outside these Houses tonight, parents and teachers alike, who are extremely angered and distressed by the proposed cutbacks in education, which will have a severe impact on our children in primary education. We should have a debate not only on the impact of the cutbacks, but also on the role of the Government's junior partner in this, because the Green Party appear to lack backbone on education cutbacks. As one of their own councillors has said, there no longer seems to be a bottom line. They will tolerate any cutback that has a draconian effect on children.

We have heard of Nero fiddling while Rome burned, and it seems the Green Party will sit idly in Government while class sizes increase, children with special needs and language needs have their services cut. Children in general will suffer badly as a result of the cutbacks and, therefore, we urgently need this debate.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator John Paul Phelan and I will call Senators Bradford, Buttimer and Coghlan tomorrow morning.

Senator Jim Walsh

Senator Buttimer has already intervened.

An Cathaoirleach

Allow Senator John Paul Phelan to speak without interruption.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Senator Walsh is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Senator John Paul Phelan

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me this opportunity to speak. I support those colleagues who requested the Leader to amend the Order of Business to accommodate a debate on embryonic stem cell research and those who have requested a further debate on education. I hope he will be able to take on board those two requests to amend the business of the House.

I support other colleagues who raised the issue of public sector reform and commend Senator Harris in this respect. At least he has shown, to paraphrase that Green Party councillor who spoke yesterday, he has a bottom line in terms of support for the Government. It is a pity the Green Party does not appear to have the same. I was somewhat surprised by the appalling conversion of a number of Members on the Government benches in regard to the issue of benchmarking and that their support for its implementation in recent years seems to have evaporated. I join them in requesting a debate on public sector reform.

I would welcome the Leader's comment on a report, commissioned by Senator Coffey, on the terms and conditions of employment, namely the salaries of county and city managers and leading local authority officials across the country. Perhaps we could have a debate on this matter in the near future.

Will the Leader spell out when the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will come to the House for a discussion on the savage cutbacks proposed in the agriculture budget, which was announced as part of the budget by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan?

Senator Paudie Coffey

Hear, hear.

Senator John Paul Phelan

At a time when thousands of people in my area and other rural areas are losing jobs in the construction industry, the Government has pulled the rug out from under the agricultural sector in terms of supporting the transference of land from the older generation to the younger generation of farmers under the age of 35. We have heard countless Ministers over the years lament the fact that there are not more young people involved in agriculture. Yet the Government has abolished the grants for new farm entrants and the early farm retirement scheme. I hope there will be a conversion by the Government in this regard, as it seems to be considering numerous other reforms in regard to the Budget Statement announced two weeks ago.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators Twomey, O'Toole, Alex White, Healy Eames and Walsh called for a debate on the issue of health. I informed the House last week that such a debate will take place next week. I will inform the House tomorrow morning of the day and times for that debate.

Senators O'Toole, Mullen, Bacik and many other Senators expressed concern regarding the education portfolio and various changes announced in the budget. I must put the facts in this respect on the record. An additional allocation of 3.2%, or an increase of €302 million, for the Department of Education and Science was announced in the budget. This reflects the Government's commitment to prioritising investment in the sector in these difficult economic times. Furthermore, there are now more than 30,000 primary teachers in schools throughout the country. In the primary sector alone there are some 6,500 more teachers on the Department's payroll than there were in 2002. Also, a further €586 million will be spent on the school building programme this year, which will result in the provision of an additional 1,200 new school places. The overall capital allocation of €889 million for 2009 represents an increase of €80 million on the allocation for 2008.

Senator Paudie Coffey

What about the children concerned, given the proposed larger class sizes?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

How many prefabs are there?

An Cathaoirleach

Allow the Leader to reply to the Order of Business without interruption.

Senator Donie Cassidy

In these difficult times we must acknowledge that there will be an increase of 3.2% in the education and science budget.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

On a point of order, does the Leader support the increase in class sizes?

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to resume his seat. That is not a point of order but a procedural matter.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Does the Leader support the increase in class sizes?

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Senator Donie Cassidy

In an effort to assist the House now that the issue has been brought to my attention, I point out that the class sizes next year will be the same as they were in 2007.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

That is incorrect.

Senator Donie Cassidy

That is the factual position. I speak only the facts in this House.

Senator Paudie Coffey

What about the Leader's pre-election commitments

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators O'Reilly, Harris and other Senators, including Senator Wilson to whom I spoke prior to the Order of Business, brought a related matter to my attention, namely, that of the funding for Church of Ireland schools. As one who was born within 100 yards of a Church of Ireland school in north Westmeath, I support that request and will discuss the matter with the Minister following the Order of Business. The Senators who brought this matter to my attention might bring it to the attention of the Minister during the Private Members' debate from 5.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.

Senators O'Toole, Mullen, O'Reilly, Harris, Norris, Walsh, Ó Murchú, Quinn, Hanafin, Coffey, Bacik and John Paul Phelan expressed serious views and concerns regarding stem cell research and the decision taken in University College Cork yesterday. I have no difficulty in arranging for a debate on that matter to take place in the House. I will endeavour that such a debate will take place at earliest possible time and will discuss the arrangements with the leaders of the groups following the Order of Business.

Senators Alex White, Quinn and Hanafin called for a debate on the banking sector. I have no difficulty in accommodating such a debate. I said on the Order of Business two weeks ago that I intend to have a debate on the economy, finance and banking at least once a month for the next two or three months in an effort to assist the House.

I must take on board the points made by Senator Quinn, who has employed hundreds if not thousands of people. We must be level headed in regard to the challenge we face. Our country is ideally positioned and far better positioned than many others in regard to the challenges facing us. I welcome the announcement that interest rates will fall further. They have fallen by 0.5% and hopefully they will decrease substantially more in the next two or three months. That will present an opportunity for the private sector. I have said in this House that the private sector brought us the Celtic tiger part one and part two. It will play its part, provided there is a level playing field, to bring us the Celtic tiger part three in three or four years' time.

Senator Michael McCarthy

It will not help if there are no schools then.

Senator Donie Cassidy

We must face the fact that if there are no golden geese there will be no golden eggs. It is as simple as that. If people have a level playing field, they will be able to create employment. I salute employers for what they have done. We have turned around this country in 21 years.

Senator Michael McCarthy

The Government has turned it upside down.

Senator Paudie Coffey

It is going down the tubes now.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senator Regan wished to avail of my opinion in regard to The Sunday Business Post poll and other related matters. Governments of all political parties that have presided here for the past 21 years have played a major part. However, I am proud that Fianna Fáil has been here for 18 of those 21 years. Therefore, we must——

Senator Eugene Regan

Take the blame.

Senator Donie Cassidy

——get credit for what we have achieved.

Senator Paudie Coffey

The Government is after leaving some deficit.

Senator Donie Cassidy

——and so must the Fine Gael-led Government for the two and half years it was in office. People must acknowledge that achievements were made by all political parties——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Leader should tell some of your colleagues that.

Senator Donie Cassidy

——but Fianna Fáil, having been there for 18 years, would be obviously included in any acknowledgement of those achievements.

Senator MacSharry brought to my attention an urgent matter concerning the roll-out of BreastCheck in the north west region and read a statement to the House pertaining to an employee of the HSE. I will bring this urgent matter to the Minister's attention immediately following the Order of Business. I will inform the House at a later date of her response.

Senator Leyden called for a debate on the 2% betting tax. That matter can be discussed in the finance debate which I hope to have in the House in the next few weeks. I join him in welcoming the extra week's Christmas payment for 1.6 million social welfare recipients, which will cost €200 million.

Senator Michael McCarthy

It is merely its retention. It is not an extra payment.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators should remember that a Fianna Fáil-led Government was pleased to do it in good times and I welcome the fair and even-minded allocation that is coming in very difficult times.

Senator O'Donovan called for an urgent debate on the Cork to Swansea ferry service. I have given my commitment on the matter and I hope it can take place in the next two weeks. He also sought an urgent debate on the fishing industry, which needs to take place by the third week in November. I will endeavour to have this take place also.

Senators Harris, Coffey, Buttimer and others expressed their serious concern and, in the case of Senator Harris, his strong views about the reform of the public sector. This is a serious challenge facing the Government and the nation. The public sector has played a major part in placing our economy where it is today and assisting everyone in Ireland. As Senator Quinn pointed out in his contribution, there is a serious challenge with many issues coming to the fore. Changing circumstances and trends need to be addressed. With that in mind I intend to have an all-day debate on the economy and all matters pertaining to finance issues, including banking and the public sector. I will endeavour to have that take place in the next two weeks.

Senator Norris called for an urgent debate on the Middle East. I have agreed to have this take place and I hope it will happen in the next few weeks.

Senators Coffey and John Paul Phelan called for an urgent debate on agricultural issues. I have no difficulty in this also taking place.

An Cathaoirleach

Two amendments to the Order of Business have been proposed. I intend taking them in the order in which they were raised. Senator Twomey has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the effects that educational cutbacks will have on schoolchildren be taken today."

Amendment put.

An Cathaoirleach

Arising from the omission to vote by Senator Deirdre de Búrca, the result has been amended, following agreement by the tellers, from that shown on the display screen to the following:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 26.

Tá

• Bacik, Ivana.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Burke, Paddy.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Coghlan, Paul.
• Cummins, Maurice.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Healy Eames, Fidelma.
• McFadden, Nicky.
• Mullen, Rónán.
• Norris, David.
• O’Reilly, Joe.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Feargal.
• Regan, Eugene.
• Twomey, Liam.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Boyle, Dan.
• Brady, Martin.
• Butler, Larry.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Cannon, Ciaran.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Corrigan, Maria.
• Daly, Mark.
• de Búrca, Déirdre.
• Ellis, John.
• Glynn, Camillus.
• Hanafin, John.
• Harris, Eoghan.
• Kett, Tony.
• Leyden, Terry.
• MacSharry, Marc.
• Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
• Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
• O’Brien, Francis.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Sullivan, Ned.
• Phelan, Kieran.
• Walsh, Jim.
• White, Mary M.
• Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Liam Twomey; Níl, Senators Déirdre de Búrca and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ronán Mullen has moved amendment No. 2 to the Order of Business: "That statements on the implications of the protocol on human embryonic stem cell research announced by the governing body of UCC be taken today". Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Rónán Mullen

No, I am happy the Leader means business.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order of Business agreed to.