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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2008

Vol. 191 No. 16

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on broadcasting standards.

The Deputy Leader's announcement was very brief, which raises the question as to why so little legislation is coming through from the Government to this House. One must ask what is happening. We know what is happening on the financial side, namely, that the EU is taking on the Government over the enormous rise in borrowing and criticising its entire approach and does not believe the figures that have been supplied to it. The question must be put to the Deputy Leader as to why there is a dearth of legislation coming to the Seanad.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to allow for a debate on education today. There are many outstanding issues on which we need information. It would be good to have a debate on this subject, about which everyone is concerned. Senator Dan Boyle may remember a video, produced by the Green Party, which was broadcast into every home in the country last year. One of the children who featured in that video said:

I can't vote but if I could vote there would be loads of things I would be asking the Government to do. I'd like there to be less kids in my class so the teacher could pay me more attention.

In that context, it must be very embarrassing for the Green Party that it agreed to the cutbacks in education in the budget.

Teachers in Lucan have asked a number of questions of me, which I will put to the Deputy Leader. This week I spoke to the principal of a school which has a number of foreign national students on its roll book. Currently there are five language support teachers in the school, but this is due to drop to only two when the new cutbacks take effect. The principal has had no direction on this matter and has not yet heard from the Department. He wishes to know if special consideration will be given to schools which have a certain number of students in need of language support and if they will be exempt from the teaching post reductions announced in the budget.

Another principal in the Lucan area told me that this year he has five junior infant classes to cope with demand from local families. Next year there will again be demand for the provision of five such classes, in a rapidly growing area. However, because of the cutbacks, he will only have the teaching resources to provide four junior infant classes. Will the Government take into account areas with a growing population, such as Lucan, or will it apply the cutbacks indiscriminately across the board?

School principals have told me that it is impossible for them to plan, given what they have been told to date and it is extremely destabilising for schools and school management. Despite everything that has been said, schools will have less funding from the Government next year than this year, making the situation highly pressurised.

There is a sense at present of death by a thousand cutbacks. We have heard the Minister refer to cutbacks but where is the overall plan from the Government? I ask the Deputy Leader to clarify whether the Government intends to introduce a supplementary budget, given the response from the EU on the scale of the problem here and the figures it believes are accurate, as opposed to those supplied by the Government.

Can Senator Dan Boyle explain how the Green Party can stand by what is happening to the Human Rights Commission, the Combat Poverty Agency and the Equality Authority?

How can a party that has long been concerned about human rights justify what is happening to these organisations——

The Senator should lay off the Green Party. She is being very unfair.

Senator Leyden, please do not interrupt the speaker.

——and the disempowerment they are experiencing as a result of the cutbacks? If the Senator is not familiar with what is happening to those organisations, I urge him to make it his business to find out about the difficulties they are facing because of the Government's action.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business so that the Minister for Education and Science can come to the House to answer some of the many questions which I suspect Senators from all sides of the House have been asked regarding the education cutbacks.

I also ask the Deputy Leader to examine the issues surrounding human rights organisations. It is something I intend to raise again when I have had a chance to study the cutbacks that have been implemented in that area.

I ask that the Government do something sensible and creative with the budget. There are measures within the budget which could be put to better purpose, a classic example of which is the air travel charge, which I note Senator Buttimer will raise on the Adjournment of the House tonight. If the Government proceeds with the €10 airport charge, it should not be applied to regional airports, namely, the airports in Donegal, Sligo, Knock, Galway, Shannon, Kerry, Cork and Waterford. Such a measure would be a positive step to help the regions and to divert commerce outside the pale, and it would be politically attractive. There would be very little money involved and the possibility should be examined.

I second the proposal to amend the Order of Business. It is amusing and entertaining to watch the Government squirm over the education cuts. It has tried to encourage a debate on the issue of substitute teachers making fraudulent claims in some way. If teachers are doing so, they should be charged with fraud and if they do something wrong action should be taken. The latest discussion is on how we might sack the teachers and the answer is very simple. If teachers act in a wrong or unprofessional way, of course they should be sacked. They should get the same protection from the law as any other worker in the State. They do not need, and should not get, any more protection. This is not an issue for debate, it is a distraction from the issues raised by Senator Fitzgerald, the answers to which we cannot provide to schools. This issue will grow and grow. Members of the Government parties may believe that because there was a big protest outside the gates of the Houses last week that is the end of the matter, but it is not. There will be bush fires in ever constituency in the country on the issue of schools losing out and not knowing what will happen to them. My colleagues on the Government side should note that this has little to do with the teachers' unions. This is the view of parents, management, Vocational Educational Committees, Gaeltacht schools and every group to which I have listened.

The only people with a different view on the matter are those in the Department of Education and Science. There has been an attempt to use world surveys claiming to show North Korea has a better system of education, and that we might have the same if we increased our pupil-teacher ratio, however, such surveys have nothing to do with Ireland. This is a nonsense and we should have a debate on the matter, which we asked for last week. The previous week the Leader indicated we would have a debate on education. However, this has not happened and, therefore, I second the proposal to amend the Order of Business. We should allow such a debate and I do not see why the Deputy Leader could not facilitate it today.

I suggest that for today's debate speaking times should be 12 minutes and eight minutes.

I do not understand why we cannot have the debate for which Senators Fitzgerald and O'Toole called. Will the Deputy Leader indicate in his response to the House why we cannot have the debate this week? As Senator O'Toole correctly said, it was called for last week. This is an urgent matter and if the House is to have any relevance it should debate the issues everyone else is discussing and debating.

I refer to one of the taunts from the members on the Government side of the House. The Deputy Leader will be glad to hear me say this was not simply a Green Party budget. The principle and central responsibility for it lies with Fianna Fáil, the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach. While the disposition of the Green Party before the election, evident from some of its statements, gives rise to some questions now, I do not spare the main Government party from the criticisms we are entitled to level concerning the budget. I support the call for a debate this week on the education cuts.

Will the Deputy Leader arrange for a debate at the earliest possible opportunity on the question of the price of fuel? There are extraordinary disparities between the price of diesel and petrol in parts of the country. The overall price levels of diesel and petrol throughout the State are too high and in recent days and weeks the international price of oil has halved since its peak earlier in the Summer. Will the relevant Minister explain this? I have some sympathy with the Taoiseach's frustrations which he expressed in colourful terms in the Dáil some months ago. He demanded that the relevant people should be brought the Dáil to deal with the matter. However, the relevant Minister should be brought to this House to explain the reason for the extraordinary disparity in the price of petrol and diesel throughout the country and why it has remained so high, given the falling international price of fuel. I call for a debate on this matter at the earliest possible opportunity.

The eyes of the world are on the United States of America today and it is a momentous day for that country.

I showed my Obama badge to some of my colleagues. I was somewhat concerned after difficulties of a sartorial nature experienced by my colleague Senator Hannigan some weeks ago and I was afraid to wear my badge. However, I have my Obama badge here today. Clearly, the eyes of the world are on that election.

That is not allowed.

I will spare the Cathaoirleach the embarrassment of wearing the badge.

On a more serious note, it is right that the eyes of the world are on the US, but I hope when the election is over the eyes of the international community will fix, at least briefly, on the recent shocking reports by the BBC and Amnesty International in respect of the most horrific stoning, beating and murder of a young girl in Somalia in shocking circumstances. She had been accused of adultery, which is in breach of Islamic law. Her father and other sources had informed Amnesty International that she had been raped by three men and that she attempted to report this rape to the militia that controls the city in which she lives. Amnesty International has done extraordinary work in the past few days to identify this story, pointing out that this 13 year old child suffered a horrendous death at the behest of the armed opposition groups that currently control Kismayo. I ask the Deputy Leader to raise urgently with the Minister for Foreign Affairs that Ireland should support immediately the setting up of an international commission of inquiry into this incident and similar incidents in Somalia. If we are truly to begin a new era on the international scene, which I hope we will do tomorrow, this is precisely the kind of incident which the international community must not countenance.

I ask the Deputy Leader if we can have a discussion on the air travel tax. The budget was published earlier than usual this year, on 14 October, and most of the measures will not be implemented until next year. We have an opportunity to make a case to the Government.

The Senator should make the case.

I appeal to the media to get away from the idea of climb-downs and so on. This is a democracy and we are entitled——

You should use the phrase "flip flop".

Members must speak through the Chair and they must respect the Senator who is speaking.

Fianna Fáil stands for flip flop.

It is appropriate that Members of this House put forward reasoned arguments to the Minister in particular cases. If the Government charges €10 for everybody leaving Dublin Airport and €2 for all other airports, it would bring in the same amount of money and would eliminate the anomaly between airports based on how close they are to England. It is a simple suggestion and I believe the Minister will respond favourably to it.

I commend the Opposition on raising the issue of the price of petrol and diesel, an issue which I raised last week. The old Fine Gael website on rip-off Ireland is out of date and my advice is that it should be updated.

(Interruptions).

Allow the Senator to speak.

I was delighted action was taken in this regard and that prices are falling. I am glad the Opposition woke up to the issue, but I wish Fine Gael would update its website because it is about three years out of date and that is very unfair to the public.

The rip-off has not changed.

The contents of the website are not relevant to the Order of Business.

Senator Norris raised the issue of rendition flights and inspections will become a reality. That will not be relevant after today when a new President is elected in the US. I compliment Senator Boyle on being selected as his party's candidate for the south region in the European Parliament elections. I also compliment Senator Alan Kelly and Senator Déirdre de Búrca.

This is not "What it says in the papers" or something like that. We are on the Order of Business.

Is it not in order to commend our colleagues?

Then in those circumstances, I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Today is a momentous day in the US and we wish the people well in that country. When the election is over in America, a major diplomatic offensive must be launched on the plight of the undocumented Irish. There are 50,000 undocumented Irish living illegally in the US. Their assets may be frozen at any time, they cannot come home for family funerals and they cannot visit relatives here. They live as fugitives in America. I ask the Deputy Leader to request the Government to undertake a new diplomatic offensive immediately after the presidential election to try to resolve this matter. An article in The Irish Times today reports that the number of deportations of undocumented Irish people from America has greatly increased in recent weeks. Some 27 people have been deported this year, compared to 12 in 2006. I will not go through all the statistics but there has been a great increase. It is a major issue for many families in this country and it should be dealt with. I ask the Deputy Leader to bring it to the attention of the Government and to have the matter debated here.

I support the call by Senator Frances Fitzgerald and others concerning education cuts. When the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, seeks to compare class sizes now with those in previous years, he omits that we now have multi-ethnic classes comprising a multitude of nationalities. Some children cannot speak English in classes, while we also have people with disabilities so we are not comparing like with like. What is proposed is a travesty of justice and an assault on our young people. It is bad economics in the long term.

We can have that debate if the Leader agrees.

I ask the Deputy Leader to take this up. I support Senator O'Toole in saying that we should not allow diversionary tactics by the Government to distract us from this awful reality across the country.

During the lifetime of the last Seanad, I raised the issue of No. 16 Moore Street, Dublin, which is a building of major historical significance. It is the building to which the leaders of the 1916 Rising retired to prepare the surrender plans, so it could be the equivalent of the Alamo. As a result of publicity at that time, we were given to understand that the Government and the appropriate authority would accord full and proper national monument status to the building. In recent times, however, I have seen suggestions that, as a result of a proposed commercial development in this area, that status may be diminished. I notice that a grandson of James Connolly, one of the 1916 leaders, expressed his concerns in this regard.

In 2016, we will celebrate and commemorate the centenary of the 1916 Rising — I understand that plans are already being prepared for that occasion. If the monument at No. 16 Moore Street is not accorded the status, which we understood it would be, we will feel ashamed to commemorate 1916. I ask the appropriate Minister to assure us that, even with this proposed commercial development, there is no danger that No. 16 Moore Street and the adjoining buildings will be interfered with in any way.

I join my colleagues in seeking a debate on education. As somebody who is on the board of trustees of over 100 voluntary schools, I am very concerned about the impact of cutbacks, particularly at second level. Many teachers have contacted me because they are worried about the impact of the budget on substitution and supervision arrangements. We talk about social capital and the importance of extra curricular activities in terms of giving students a rounded experience, but what will happen when teachers cannot get involved in sports, musicals and all the other very valuable things they do because it will not be possible to replace them during those hours? This needs to be considered and changed.

Last week, I asked the Leader for a debate on human embryonic stem cell research in light of UCC's controversial decision. I understand the Leader is proposing that, in the context of a wider debate on health, the Minister for Health and Children will deal with that matter, but that is not good enough. I point out to the Deputy Leader that whether we allow embryo-destructive research is, in the first instance, a matter of justice. It is for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to come into this House and to relegate the issue of embryo research to just one issue among many to be discussed——

To destroy the embryos.

——to replicate the media's total inaction in questioning what UCC has done. There has been no media scrutiny of the lack of public consultation prior to the UCC decision. We do not even know whether they published the results of their own internal survey and nobody is asking the hard questions. I am not aware that anybody has even asked the Government what it thinks of the UCC decision.

In light of all this, I want to withdraw my request for the debate because I intend instead to bring forward a Private Members' Bill in this House for which I hope the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be present, which will seek to prohibit any creation of embryos for the purposes of research or any research involving or deriving from the destruction of human embryos. Given the great progress being made in the area of adult stem cell research, including induced pluripotent stem cell research, I hope I will have support from people on all sides of the House who must surely want a socially non-divisive solution to this very sensitive issue.

I ask also for a debate on Burma. This was the subject of a previous debate but I recently received some very eloquent correspondence from a Brazilian person living in this country on foot of an article I wrote in the Daily Mail about the plight of oppressed people, particularly Christian communities who are being oppressed throughout the world. The Chin people are being forgotten by the world community. They are suffering as a result of a very unusual famine that only occurs about twice in every century when there is an excess of bamboo which causes a plague of rats with consequent infestation and damage and consumption of crops. It is not the Burmese Government’s intention to look after the plight of its own people in western Myanmar. I ask the Deputy Leader for a response on what the Government proposes by way of a debate whereby we can look at what we should be doing and what the concerned citizens of the world should be doing to draw attention to the plight of these oppressed people, many thousands of whom are now suffering and are in danger.

I support the call for a debate on education in which I ask the Minister to address one aspect, namely, the change in the allocation of pupil-teacher ratios in private secondary schools. It seems to me that this is establishing a differential for which the reasons are not given nor the policy explained. Is the Government setting itself against private education? These private secondary schools, such as St. Andrew's, Blackrock College or CBC Monkstown in my area, invariably take on board themselves the capital investment required to upgrade their schools. This relieves the State of so much expenditure that the case has not been made for this differential which, presumably, is the thin end of the wedge in that this Government is setting itself a course against private education. What is the reason for this discrimination and what will be the effects on the schools concerned? Is it the intention of the Minister to pursue a policy of discriminating further against private education in this regard? It is either forcing an increase in fees in these schools or it is giving rise to a drop in the quality of the education which will be available.

There are many misconceptions about private education. I refer to a survey in The Irish Times of August this year which showed that many families are prepared to go into debt to fund their children’s education. I ask that the Minister would address this specific issue of private education and the discrimination which has been introduced in the budget in that regard.

I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange a debate at the earliest opportunity on the subject of buying Irish. We are heading into the Christmas purchasing season and there are many products, including high ticket items such as laptops and computers which are manufactured in this country by American companies. Given a choice and all things being equal, it makes perfect sense for people to make a conscious effort to purchase Irish goods. European Union regulations impose restrictions on the promotion of goods but this does not extend to the national Parliament making a strong case to the public in light of the slowdown in the economy.

The reality is that we are trying to save jobs. I am conscious that one of the major motor companies was considering closing a plant in one of its subsidiaries. Its representatives went to the subsidiary where they were asked very strongly not to close the plant. They then went to the car park where they found many cars, including many imported cars made by that company's cheaper competitors.

We would make a great case for maintaining jobs in Ireland and show a great effort to achieve this if we continued to push strongly for products to have an Irish label on them, whether for computer games, which will be very popular this Christmas, electronic equipment or high ticket items. These should be promoted very strongly. We should have this debate at the earliest opportunity.

That is an excellent idea from Senator Hanafin, with whom I totally agree. Perhaps that debate could be inclusive of the whole issue of pricing which was raised earlier by Senator Alex White. This is not just about fuel prices. I had reason to recently examine prices of other goods. Prices in the same supermarkets in the UK and Ireland, when one takes into account the currency differential, are approximately 25% higher here, and the same applies to prices in clothes stores and sandwich and burger bars. Some sort of rip-off is taking place. I would like a general debate on prices and buying Irish.

I listened to Senator Leyden's criticism of the Fine Gael website. I had cause recently to hit on a certain Senator's website. The pictures of the said Senator were from about 1970 when he had hair a lot blacker than he has now.

It is not relevant what a Senator looks like.

Nineteen seventy eight, how are you?

He was seen with Charlie Haughey and Bertie Ahern anyway.

It is my photo album, for God's sake.

I wish to correct the voting record for last week. The online version of the voting records for last week show that I voted on Tuesday's debate. In fact, myself and Senator Ormonde were away — we have pictures to prove it.

Will the Senator put them on his website?

Could the Leader arrange for the voting record to be corrected?

Voting is a matter for the tellers. If the decision has been made, I am not in a position to change it.

The lonely Senator——

I call Senator Healy Eames.

I ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House. We are in the middle of an economic recession but I do not believe we have had the Minister to the House to address the very serious issue of the emigration that has now begun. Are the Government and the Tánaiste aware that middle income fathers are emigrating, leaving their wives and young children behind? They have no choice but to emigrate because of their commitments. Their jobs are gone and they are faced with moving to places like the Middle East, for example, Abu Dhabi.

This is the Ireland we did not want to see return. It is fine when people are leaving in their twenties for adventure but this is more serious. What hope can the Government offer families who are facing these decisions? When will the Minister come to the House to have a serious debate on the fundamentals of our economy, particularly with a view to examining employment opportunities?

I am delighted the Deputy Leader is in the chair today.

He is a member of the party that has espoused education as its main platform.

This is questions to the Leader, irrespective of who that is.

I am coming to the questions.

I have examined the education cuts. The education system was already creaking, under huge strain and just about managing. I do not know what hope there is for that system or how it will manage. I am worried that after Christmas schools will have to send children home for health and safety reasons. There will be all-out revolution because the parents may not be at home to take the children. First, their education rights will be infringed. Second, which is the abuse the Government will bring on itself, principals and teachers may have to get sick certificates——

The point has been well made now.

——just to get cover substitution to keep children at school. One way or another, the children will lose. The Government will also lose because it will not make the financial savings it is hoping out of this ridiculous cut. I have come to the conclusion——

No. It is questions to the Deputy Leader.

——that the quality of our children's education can no longer be assured.

We cannot have Second Stage speeches.

What leadership can the Green Party show in this regard?

Is the Deputy Leader going to run for Europe?

For the past three weeks I have called for the Minister for Education and Science to attend the House and address these attacks on the quality of our children's education. I still have no answer. Would the Deputy Leader please listen to me?

That is telling him.

Senator, the point has been made.

I am looking for an answer on that today. The Deputy Leader also has to answer for all the promises on education he made on his website. I look forward to hearing his response today.

I support Senator Frances Fitzgerald's call for a debate on the cutbacks in the Combat Poverty Agency and others. I have been raising this for the past three weeks. It is clear no savings will be made with these cuts. It is just an attempt to muzzle the voice of the disadvantaged and a very cynical action, as is the Government's decision to reopen the question of extraordinary rendition at this stage. The Government claims it will discuss the matter with the incoming US Administration. It was not too keen on it when Bush was in saddle.

That is such a slavish and disgusting thing.

I want to tell my good friends in the Green Party not to be bought off with this little sop from the Administration to allow them to close the door after the horses have bolted. A committee was established by this House to examine the issue which was then dissolved by the Government. Now, there is another one which contradicts what the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said to Deputy Michael D. Higgins and myself. It also contradicts what was said by the Garda at the time which I raised at a meeting on foot of complaint I made about extraordinary rendition. The Greens ought to be very careful that they themselves are not renditioned.

Will the Deputy Leader reassure the House of the progress of the Civil Partnership Bill in the light of the very strong comments by Cardinal Seán Brady? I found it a strange priority for the archdiocese of Armagh, when it only has seven seminarians and 130 priests for 200,000 people, to take on the disadvantaged in a manner which, sadly, can only further alienate young people from the church. To make a totem of marriage in the way that it has been done is nothing other than blasphemy. I refer to the gospels of Jesus Christ when he was reprimanded by the pharisees for breaking the Sabbath. He made the point that this was an institution made for man, not man for the institution.

The Senator has made his point.

The reports of his comments on RTE showed an arrogant, threatening and legalistic tone as the cardinal allied himself with Karl Rove, George Bush, Robert Mugabe and Ian Paisley.

The Senator has made his point.

I was one of the founders of the Southern Ireland Civil Rights Association which fought for the civil and human rights of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland. It horrifies me that the leader of a church should seek to stamp his mark on such discrimination and inequality. I very much regret that I am forced to raise this issue. I thought we had put it behind us. I wanted us to get on to issues such as extraordinary rendition, human rights and the Dublin metro. Why are we dragged back into the 19th century in this shameful and disgraceful way? I am very happy if Cardinal Brady has strong feelings about it; he is perfectly entitled to them. I will meet him anywhere.

He will be in Leinster House tomorrow.

I will meet him in the National Stadium, the RDS or the National Concert Hall and debate this issue if he feels so strongly about it.

The Senator has made his point. I call on Senator Marc MacSharry, without interruption.

Senator Norris can meet the Cardinal in Leinster House tomorrow.

Senator Leyden, please do not be inviting interruptions.

Last week I called for a debate on the Health Service Executive, in particular with regard to the roll-out of BreastCheck in the north west. While I appreciate the Leader said at the time he would do his best to pursue that issue and, particularly some comments by the head of the national cancer screening service last week, I know he is away this week, so he is not in a position to respond. However, I plan to raise this issue each week until we get conclusive information on when the roll-out will take place in the north west. I find it sickening in the extreme to watch advertisements on the television asking the people of the country to come forward and avail of this free service. It is a joke. It is George Orwell-style equality.

All people are equal but some are more equal than others. It is the same with the proposed winding down of cancer services in the north west region and Sligo Regional Hospital. The HSE consistently acts in an independent fashion without taking into account the wishes of the people. The people are the most important thing. That is what we are all about here in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

There is another report within the HSE at the moment which proposes to reduce from 47 to 17 the number of pathology laboratories throughout the country. It may make sense to have some kind of consolidation, but I would like a debate to take place at this point so that we, as representatives of the people — or a form of representation — can ensure their wishes are taken into account. In this way we will not simply be reacting to events and trying to retrospectively correct the actions of management consultants who are not representing anybody and have zero mandate.

I agree with my party leader, Senator Fitzgerald, with regard to the schedule for this week and the past number of weeks, which has been very thin not just on legislation but also on general debates. In the past few weeks the Leader has agreed on the Order of Business to a number of debates. In particular, I do not see why we have not had a debate on education, which has been raised by a number of speakers this morning. We should certainly have had it by now. There are at least four Ministers of State in the Department of Education and Science and if the senior Minister cannot be here I do not see why one of the others cannot take his place.

Last week a number of people mentioned the need for a debate on agriculture. Again, it is not on the schedule for this week or on the Order Paper for today. I ask the Deputy Leader to consider it as soon as possible. Similarly, a debate on public finances in general has been sought for a couple of months but we have not had one. Let us consider the number of discussions we are having every week. Last week there were three items on the schedule for the two days we sat. That is not appropriate at a time at which there is such outcry on a number of issues.

I wish to join with colleagues who raised the issue of fuel prices in light of an EU survey, the results of which were published yesterday, which showed that in Ireland diesel prices are 20% higher on average than the rest of the EU and petrol prices are 11% higher. I noted the statement of Ann Fitzgerald of the National Consumer Agency that we were not comparing like with like in the sense that the European figures were monthly while the Irish figures were weekly. However, her own figures show that diesel prices are 9% higher than the European average and petrol prices are 1% higher. It would be useful to have a debate on this issue as well as a general discussion on prices, as mentioned by Senator Hannigan. I was interested in the comments of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on this subject. His suggestion for dealing with the price differential between Ireland and the rest of Europe was to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Admittedly, this is a perfectly laudable long-term objective, but for people who are sitting in traffic on their way to schools across the country to collect children it is not much of a consolation that the Government's policy is to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

Last week I was one of the members of a delegation from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs which visited Malawi. It was heartening to see the contribution of Irish Aid in that country. It is one of the poorest countries in the world, with 60% of the population below the poverty line. We saw at first hand the challenges facing the people of Malawi. I commend the embassy and the non-governmental organisations on their work with these people and the programmes that give them some quality of life in their rural communities. Because of the recent death of the father of the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Power, this is probably not a suitable time to ask him to attend the Chamber for a debate. However, will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister of State to come to the House for a discussion on Irish Aid and the work it is doing. I was very heartened, particularly when we have experienced such a bad time in this country in the past few weeks, to see what happens out there. It would be worthwhile to have a discussion on how Irish aid is administered and to show the taxpayer that the money is well spent and they are getting value for money. This would be a worthwhile discussion when we have the opportunity to include it in the agenda.

With my colleagues, I ask the Deputy Leader to bring the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, into the Chamber, regarding the shameful situation where, while €2.4 million was allocated in the budget for 2006 for a sexual assault unit for Mullingar hospital and the regional hospital in Galway, nothing has happened. Money was also allocated for Letterkenny but that unit is still closed. If a woman has been traumatised and raped, there is nowhere for her to go, as a victim, other than to Dublin.

I put myself in the shoes of an unfortunate woman who has been raped. What must it be like to get into a car and travel to Dublin? For her case to stand up she must be forensically examined. What are we doing about it? Where is the €2.4 million that was allocated for this purpose? Doctors and nurses have been forensically trained and I welcome that, but there is no reason this unit has not opened. Everything is in place and it is poised to open. The director of the Rape Crisis Centre, Ms Ellen O'Malley-Dunlop, said she cannot explain it and the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, could not give an answer. Will the Deputy Leader find out why this unit has not opened? He should bring the Minister in here to tell us when the centre will open so that women who have been so badly traumatised will not have to go through such a horrific experience?

I ask the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the Chamber to have a debate on eating disorders. I was shocked to hear a discussion on a radio programme this morning by two experts in the field, who will hold a public meeting tonight, which is free of charge, on obesity. They said it is viewed almost as a norm as we have reached such high numbers and people are accepting it as a regular, ordinary, everyday condition. We have the highest levels of obesity in Europe.

I am no stranger to asking for a debate on the other eating disorder, anorexia nervosa. I have asked, on several occasions, for a debate on the number of ring-fenced beds in the country. There are only two, while there is none for paediatrics. I ask the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, or the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, to facilitate us with a debate.

I ask the Deputy Leader for a debate on the Climate Protection Bill 2007, which I introduced to the House in October last year and which still has to resume on Second Stage. In the justified uproar and protests over the dreadful budget, it may have missed the attention of those in government that last week the UK passed the first binding climate change law. The new British Act sets a legally binding target for the UK to reduce carbon emissions by 80% by 2050. It has been welcomed by the majority of businesses there as setting an incentive for them to reduce their emissions and move to low carbon technologies.

In a week when the Green Party is seeking a debate on this issue, it would be appropriate to have a further debate on the Climate Protection Bill.

It is unfortunate that this Bill was not passed into law before the British Act was passed, but given that they have passed it, it shows that an argument against passing our Bill into law has been removed. It is clearly possible and practical to pass legislation creating binding targets for reductions in carbon emissions. It is becoming obvious that we have no option but to do so, or else we will never meet the modest Kyoto targets. I ask the Deputy Leader for further time to debate Second Stage and, if necessary, to move on to the next Stage of the Climate Protection Bill. It is vital that we do so, and there is a great deal of support across the parties in this House, and in the other House, for that.

I ask the Deputy Leader also for a debate on protections of listed buildings. In recent weeks we have seen the destruction of two buildings — a 19th century Methodist church near Croke Park and a 19th century convent in Terenure, for which a developer was fined a derisory €1,000 for illegally demolishing that convent. There appears to be an absence of appropriate sanctions for developers who demolish buildings illegally and, with the Green Party in Government, it would be appropriate to debate that issue.

There has been a good deal of misplaced concern expressed in this House about the protection of embryos in terms of embryonic stem cell research. We might reflect on the real concern we should feel for people we know who have Parkinson's disease——

——or other degenerative diseases and for whom research of this type can offer a real prospect of treatment for the future. We should not close the door on them and lack compassion towards them when we are debating stem cell research.

We do not have to——

You have spoken already, Monsignor Mullen.

That is the real issue for us and that is where our concern would be better placed.

I join in the call for a debate on agriculture. I accept that substantial progress has been made in the past two decades in the area of agriculture but in regard to the recent budget I have two concerns that I outlined to the Minister recently. I ask the Deputy Leader for a debate on this important issue, particularly as it relates to the farm retirement scheme. Currently there are approximately 300 participants nationwide, which is not a large number of people. They have done their preparation. Their sons or daughters have completed their education. In many instances the parents have gone to their solicitor, the land has been transferred, the stamp duty has been paid and they were on the verge of getting paid. I accept the scheme has only been suspended but a number of hard cases have arisen because perhaps only one third of those 300 farmers, be they male or female, have made their preparation. Their position should be looked at sympathetically. Where the sons or daughters have completed the two or three years' college training and the parents have decided, in good faith, to transfer the land subject to certain conditions, those cases should be re-examined.

On the same issue, some of the most severely disadvantaged farmers I represent, and this would apply to areas in the west and south of Kerry, were hit in the same way when the hectarage limit for the area aid payments was reduced from 45 to 34 hectares. That issue should be re-examined. It is a small amount of money but it is very important to the most disadvantaged. I attended a meeting in the Beara Peninsula last night at which I met farmers who on occasion have to bring feedstuffs or other agricultural products from Cork, which is a distance of 100 miles. Those people are out on a limb and, unfortunately, are the hardest hit. They are severely disadvantaged, and that has been acknowledged not alone in Ireland for the past 40 years but also in Europe. Some of these payments are EU backed.

I ask the Minister to examine the cuts sympathetically. I accept some of them have only been suspended but they are affecting young farmers who are ready to take over their parents' farms. There is a problem in rural Ireland in that young farmers, be they male or female, are walking away from the land. They do not see a future in farming, and I ask that those who are prepared to take over should be given that chance. In the past two years the trend has been bucked in that for the first time in the past decade there has been a huge increase in the numbers, both male and female, attending farming colleges. That is encouraging and we should use that important initiative taken by the young people to try to keep them on the land and keep rural Ireland alive.

Can the Deputy Leader explain the reason we have not had a specific debate on the impact of the education cuts? We talk about the relevance of Seanad Éireann but the absence of a debate is diminishing our role and responsibility in the eyes of the people. I accept that the Deputy Leader and his colleagues may be running scared. Perhaps that is why he is hoping to be elected to serve in Europe.

Is the Senator going to assist me in that regard?

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

We will move the Deputy Leader on.

(Interruptions).

Members should cease interrupting. The time for the Order of Business is almost exhausted and there are still two Senators offering.

On behalf of the parents and young people who are being seriously affected by these cuts, I ask the Deputy Leader to facilitate a debate on education with the relevant Minister.

I join Senator O'Reilly in making a plea to the Deputy Leader. I do so in light of the latter's place of birth and what is happening there today, namely, a presidential election. There are thousands of undocumented Irish in the United States and many of them are under genuine pressure. In recent days, for example, I received an e-mail from a person who could not return home for his brother's funeral. The individual in question is not just a statistic. We are dealing with real people. In light of the fact that the American people will go to the polls in massive numbers today, I call for a debate on the undocumented Irish and for a renewed effort on the part of the Government, which has the support of those on this side of the House, in respect of them.

A massive number of new people will be voting in the American presidential election and early voting has proven to be a success. Will the Deputy Leader request that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government come to the House to debate how we might transform our electoral system——

——in order that we might have early voting, postal voting and——

——an entirely new way of encouraging people to vote?

This morning I wish to highlight the fact that a debate on the economy is required as a matter of urgency. Listening to those on the other side of the House, I have formed the opinion that they do not realise the severity of the situation from a financial point of view.

We recognise what the Government has done to the economy.

(Interruptions).

Senator Butler, without interruption. The Senator did not interrupt anyone on the Opposition side of the House.

Listening to Senator O'Toole this morning——

Why does the Senator not acknowledge the mess the Government has made?

Someone will be marching out the door in one minute if Senators do not cease interrupting.

I did not say anything.

Senator Butler should proceed, without interruption.

We must have a debate on the economy because there is a need to identify that for which we can afford to pay.

We need a new Government to manage the economy.

I would appreciate it if Senator Bacik and those on the Opposition side would respect other Members.

I will stand for as long as I am obliged to. Those opposite may interrupt me as much as they like. Unfortunately, it will take me much longer to conclude if they continue to interrupt.

I will not be able to allow the Senator to continue for much longer.

It is bad manners not to listen to what another Member has to say. I do not want to give anybody a lecture this morning——

The Senator should do so.

——but we were all elected to the House and we deserve to be heard.

Senator Butler should put a question to the Deputy Leader.

The economy is extremely important because, via the money it produces, we are able to afford to provide the services people require. It was somewhat rich of Senator O'Toole to defend his colleagues. He did it well and that is what he is paid to do. My attitude this morning would be——

It is the afternoon.

——to stop the whingeing and support the budget, which is necessary for the economy.

It is later than the Senator thinks.

As the relevant Minister stated, the education system will be reverting to the position it held one year ago. However, the capital expenditure relating to that system will be increased this year to improve school facilities.

One should never cut current spending when it comes to children.

Did I interrupt the Senator?

Senator Healy Eames should——

Did I interrupt the Senator?

I did not. The Senator is just displaying bad manners.

Senator Butler should not be shouting at a lady. He should have better manners.

Senator Butler should conclude. The time allocated for the Order of Business is exhausted.

Senator Butler should not shout at Senator Healy Eames.

Senator Buttimer should refrain from shouting across the floor. Senator Butler should conclude because Senator Glynn indicated some time ago that he wishes to contribute.

I have been delayed by those who are interrupting.

I will be obliged to bring the Senator's contribution to a conclusion if he does not do so.

More nonsense from the Senator.

A good debate on the economy with the Minister for Finance present would solve many of the problems. It would enable us to examine if there is room within the budget's parameters — and we must stay within those parameters — to find savings. If savings can be found in some budgets, that would be fine. That is the way to go. We must do this the right way and invite the Minister for Finance to the House first. After that, we can invite the Minister for Education and Science to consider what can be done in that area. That is the way to go. I take on board what other Members have said but it is important we deal with it the right way, which is through the economy.

I strongly support the views of Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú regarding 60 Moore Street. It would be a shame if it was not preserved for the nation, given its historical relevance.

I also support Senator Geraldine Feeney's remarks on anorexia nervosa. I have raised this matter on a number of occasions in the House. It has a serious adverse impact on public health, especially among young people, although also, in some cases, among the not so young. It is very important. A number of units must be established throughout the country to treat this condition.

The Senator also mentioned the obesity report. Members will recall that a report on that matter was brought forward in the last Seanad. Obesity is a condition that has particular relevance for type 1 and type 2 diabetes. As a Member of the previous Seanad, I spent two years calling for a debate on obesity and eventually a debate lasting an hour and a quarter was held. The number of people with type 2 diabetes is phenomenal. However, the screening for diabetes is not what we would wish. The Diabetes Federation of Ireland, DFI, has held a number of information seminars throughout the country, including in the Cathaoirleach's home town of Tullamore and in Mullingar. That practice should be continued.

Will the Deputy Leader invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House to discuss derelict buildings and the dangerous buildings Act? Many streets of our towns are speckled with buildings that have been left unattended and run down for years. When the local authority puts pressure on the owners, they apply for planning permission but, regardless of whether they get that permission, they continue to do nothing, as they have for years. This issue must be examined and an amendment made to the legislation. I would be prepared to bring that forward but I wish to hear the views of the Minister, Deputy John Gormley. I am aware that he, like all Members of the House, is concerned about the issue.

With regard to the statements on broadcasting standards, I propose that the contributions of spokespersons should be 12 minutes and those of other Senators be eight minutes.

Many Members have called for a debate on education. The Leader's office endeavours to organise such debates as quickly as possible and to have the relevant Minister present to respond. To date, there has not been an opportunity for the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House. Efforts are being made to secure the earliest date possible for the debate, and I will repeat the calls that were made today by Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, Mullen, Regan, Healy Eames and Buttimer. A response to the particular issues that were raised should properly wait for that debate.

A slightly different point was made by Senator Regan regarding private education. I am not aware of the Government taking a particular decision on private education. Obviously the difficult decisions that have been made were about how the resources that exist might be used most efficiently. I would not be opposed to a debate on private education in its own right as there are issues that must be discussed, such as the unintended consequences of universal free fees at third level and the resulting increase in the number of people paying fees for second level education. One of the concerns that exists about the series of spending curbs in the budget is how education for minority interests might be affected and how that might be looked at again. I am confident that reconsideration is being given in that area in particular.

Senator Fitzgerald and other Senators, particularly Senator Phelan, asked about legislation in the House, especially with regard to this week's business. There are two Bills on Committee Stage in the House at present, the Harbours (Amendment) Bill, which is proceeding on Thursday, and the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. We will deal also with the Finance Bill and the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill which traditionally follow the budget. These are very detailed and will take much of our time between now and the Christmas recess. The publication of the Government's programme for the next session will contain a number of Bills, some of which I am aware of and some of which were the subject of questions from Members on today's Order of Business.

Senator Fitzgerald and Senator Norris raised the issue of the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority. My understanding is that despite large-scale curbs in both budgets, most of the curbs will result in a shared secretariat between the two organisations.

No, the Combat Poverty Agency is being absorbed by the Department.

I will respond to that.

The Deputy Leader without interruption, please.

With regard to the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority, although a proposal had been made to create a single agency, they will remain independent organisations with a shared secretariat.

How can that be done when one of them will be in Roscrea and one will be in Dublin?

The Combat Poverty Agency issue is something I personally consider unfortunate. Efforts are being made to arrange for the agency to discuss the matter with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. I am not sure how that situation will be dealt with in the immediate future. We must await events following that discussion.

Senator O'Toole and Senator Leyden raised the airport levy. How it will be applied and how it affects or discriminates against other airports is another matter that must still be determined. I will forgive Senator O'Toole his slight in referring to Cork and Shannon as regional airports.

They are in the regions.

They are international airports.

Yes, but they are also regional airports.

I am glad the Senator is talking about Cork at last.

The Deputy Leader, without interruption.

Senator Alex White, Senator Leyden and, to an extent, Senator Hannigan raised the issue of fuel pricing differentials. Senator Hannigan spoke about the wider issue. The question on fuel was on foot of the recently released European report which shows that Irish prices are higher than those in other European countries before taxes are applied. However, Irish prices at the pump are still cheaper than those in other European countries because we apply less tax to our fuel than those countries. That point should be taken into account. That is a fact.

Yes, but it is not the point.

The question of profiteering, as some speakers mentioned, is being addressed in a report from the National Consumer Agency.

For two months.

Senator Leyden and Senator Norris raised the issue of rendition. The American administration that will be dealt with on this issue is the one led by President George W. Bush, who brought this policy into practice. The transition of the new president who will be elected in the United States today will take place in January. I agree that all the measures that have been agreed can only be a gesture, but it is a gesture that reflects large-scale concern about the practice of a policy with which many people in this country do not agree. That is the reason the action is being taken.

That is welcome, and the Senator had a good position on it.

Senator O'Reilly and Senator Buttimer spoke about the US elections and a new initiative on the position of the undocumented Irish. It is a good opportunity and I will make that view known. It is also an opportunity to wish the two main party candidates well in today's elections, even though——

Not McCain, for God's sake.

What about Ralph Nader?

——we might wish some candidates better than others.

We do not need any more crooks in the White House.

Members should not interrupt the Deputy Leader.

We need to be at least somewhat politic, although I wish to stress, on a personal level, that the passing from one administration to another, regardless of who is in charge, cannot come soon enough for many people, given the practices that have occurred. The current President has compromised the world in terms of peace and economic stability.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senators Ó Murchú and Glynn raised the issue of No.16 Moore Street and the need to protect that building as a national monument. This is, first and foremost, a matter for Dublin City Council but the concerns of Senators will be made known to the relevant Department.

Senator Mullen withdrew his request for a debate on stem cell research on the basis that he intends to introduce a Private Member's Bill on the issue, which in itself will give rise to a debate. We look forward to the Bill to be devised by the Senator.

I look forward to the support of Deputy Boyle.

Senator Mullen also raised the question of Burma and the treatment of the Chin people. Indeed, several speakers raised issues in the foreign affairs arena, including the need for an international commission of inquiry in Somalia with regard to the recent Sharia law case concerning a 13 year old girl who was raped. Senator Ormonde asked for a debate on Irish Aid, in the context of the recent visit by her and Senator Hannigan to Malawi. These issues deserve to be discussed in this House. We will speak to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister of State at that Department to arrange a debate on these matters.

Senator Hanafin raised the matter of buying Irish, which he pointed out is difficult to promote without falling foul of European law. He also pointed out that using this House as a platform to speak about such matters raises awareness among people of the importance of buying Irish goods, particularly in these economically changed times when we need to improve our balance of payments.

Senator Healy-Eames asked that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment be invited to the House to debate unemployment. The issue of price differentials, as raised by Senator Hannigan, is also part of the Tánaiste's brief so we will make both requests to find out when the Minister might be able to come to the House.

Senator Norris raised the comments of Archbishop Brady today regarding the Civil Partnership Bill. Archbishop Brady, as a religious leader, has every right to express his views——

——on what he sees as ideals in society. However, the Civil Partnership Bill is very much a part of the programme for Government. In itself, it is a compromise of the positions of both parties in government. The Green Party's position on civil partnership is stronger than what is likely to be introduced in the Bill. Nonetheless, it is a development in legislation that will deal with many people in our society who are in partnerships other than the predominant type, that is, religiously recognised relationships or heterosexual relationships. There is a large number of people in our society for whom legislation must be introduced so that they are afforded equal treatment under law. It is on that basis that a law will be enacted and I look forward to positive contributions to the debate on the Bill when it comes before the House.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator MacSharry has consistently called for a debate on BreastCheck and, given the concerns about how the programme is operating in the north west, he is justified in continually raising the issue in the House. The Senator will have an opportunity tomorrow, with the visit of the Minister for Health and Children to the House, although I accept it will not be the perfect opportunity, given that the Minister is due to speak on nursing homes and medical cards. There were requests for a debate on eating disorders not only from Senator MacSharry but also from Senators Feeney and Glynn, while the latter also called for a debate on diabetes. Given that the Minister for Health and Children is a frequent contributor to debates here and is always willing to come to this House, all these matters may be the subject of discussions with her at a future date.

Senators Phelan and O'Donovan asked for a debate on agriculture. There are issues, on foot of the budget, that have caused ongoing concern and that require a response. The Leader's office has attempted to organise a debate, but the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will be away on Government business next week. Therefore, the earliest opportunity for such a debate will be the week after next. As soon as a debate can be arranged, that will be done.

Senator McFadden, to whom I should have referred in the context of health debates, asked why health facilities in Mullingar, Galway and Letterkenny are not operational, which I suspect is due to staffing issues. A similar situation pertained in an accident and emergency unit in Cork until recently. The Senator's question deserves an answer but I do not know if the Minister will be in a position to provide one tomorrow. Nevertheless, we will ask the question on the Senator's behalf.

Senator Bacik asked about the climate protection Bill. The position of the Government is unchanged in this regard. We want to see progress in the international debate in terms of the Copenhagen meeting and whether the EU position will be to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 20%, as per the current agreement, or 30% if an international agreement is reached in Copenhagen. It is good to see that the British Government has agreed a Bill, but it is one that is not without flaws. For example, emissions from aviation and shipping are not covered by that Bill, which is a matter of great controversy.

It is still a lot better than what we have, which is no Bill.

I accept that, but the intention is to keep alive the Bill that the Senator has presented to the House or to force the Government to come up with a better alternative, and that is what we will seek to do.

Senator Bacik also asked about the protection of listed buildings, which ties in with the request from Senator Glynn for a debate on legislation and regulations as they apply to derelict buildings. I am aware that a comprehensive new planning and development Bill will come before the House early next year and I hope it will cover issues such as these and give Members of the House an opportunity to discuss how the system is operating.

Senator Buttimer suggested that we take heed of what is happening in the United States at present with a view to revamping our electoral systems. I know this is an issue in which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will be very interested in responding to and we will invite him to the House to engage in a debate on the matter.

A request was made by Senators Butler and Phelan for debates on the economy and public finances. A commitment was given in the House that we will have regular debates, on a monthly basis, on the economy.

We have not had any such debate so far.

I hope that request will sit well with the intention to discuss these issues on a regular basis in the House. I advise Senators that it is proposed that statements on broadcasting standards will conclude at 6 p.m. this evening.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, "That statements on the cutbacks in education be taken today". Is that amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 23.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • McFadden, Nicky.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • O’Toole, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • White, Alex.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Carty, John.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Phelan, Kieran.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Joe O’Toole; Níl, Senators Déirdre de Búrca and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
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