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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Dec 2008

Vol. 193 No. 3

Gun Crime: Statements.

I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on the important subject of gun crime. Senators will appreciate that I am very constrained in what I can say about a specific recent tragic incident where a gun was used. A person has been charged so it would be inappropriate for me to comment either on the detail surrounding the immediate incident or the circumstances which gave rise to it. That information will emerge in the fullness of time and we will see if any lessons can be learned from it. At the moment, all I can say is that the death of Mr. O'Kane is deplored by all right-thinking people and our sympathy is with his family and friends, as well as with the wider community in East Wall. The Garda and the local community in East Wall work closely together and this tragic incident will reinforce their determination to continue working together. The House was told last Tuesday, in the course of an Adjournment debate, of the strong and vibrant communities in the East Wall and adjacent areas.

I attach the highest priority to tackling organised and gun crime and bringing those involved in such activities to justice. One of the main priorities I have set for the Garda Síochána in 2009 is to target gun crime, organised crime and drug related crime through a range of measures, including the use of the Garda specialist units and targeted operations, such as Operation Anvil. In doing so, I am conscious of the achievements of the Garda Síochána, whose members are called upon daily to put their lives on the line in their efforts to thwart the activities of gangs. It is because of those efforts that many gang members who may have considered themselves untouchable are behind bars facing long sentences, for which there will be no mitigation.

Operation Anvil began in the Dublin metropolitan region in 2005 to deal with this type of serious crime and was extended nationwide in 2006. The primary focus of the operation is to target active criminals and their associates who are involved in serious crime by preventing and disrupting their criminal activity through extensive additional overt policing and static checkpoints by uniform, mobile and foot patrols, supported by armed plain clothes patrols. By the end of November 2008, 1,200 firearms had been recovered in Dublin and 1,000 had been recovered in the rest of the country under Operation Anvil. There had been more than 7,000 arrests for serious crimes such as murder, robbery and burglary and 67,000 searches for weapons, drugs and stolen goods under the operation, which the Garda will continue to pursue as it relentlessly tackles the issue of illegal guns.

At a time when the public finances are under pressure, I am ensuring that priority continues to be given to front line policing. The level of funding provided under Operation Anvil will increase in 2009 from €20 million to €21 million. That will enable the Garda to continue to target and disrupt serious and organised criminal activity. The decision I made more than four months ago to provide for an increase in funding for the operation, which was made in the context of a reduction of 2.7% in my Department's total Estimate, meant I was giving priority to the fight against organised crime rather than other areas of departmental responsibility. I have been the subject of criticism in this House for that key decision. I have given increased resources to the Garda under Operation Anvil, which specifically targets organised crime, to ensure the fight against such crime can continue. It is obvious that the deployment of additional gardaí on the streets is an important aspect of that. The decision to recruit an additional 400 gardaí in 2009 represents a significant achievement at a time when the overall level of Exchequer funding given to the Department is being reduced.

I emphasise that other key operations will be maintained in 2009. The savings that have to be made will not be allowed to diminish front line policing. The level of funding given next year to the Criminal Assets Bureau, which I recently discussed in the Seanad, will increase by €1.5 million, or 20%. Next year, the overall Garda budget will be €1.589 billion. The recent increase in Garda numbers will more than compensate for the reduction in the allocation for Garda overtime. The attested strength of the force will increase to almost 14,900, from its current attested strength of 14,267, by the end of 2009. During last year's general election campaign, my party indicated that it would increase the number of gardaí to 15,000 by 2010. We will reach that figure at the end of 2009. It is important to remind the House that the main Opposition party, Fine Gael, indicated in the contract it produced before the election that it would not increase Garda numbers to 15,000 until 2012. We will achieve that by the end of next year, three years before the date that was indicated by the Opposition in advance of last year's election.

The number of gardaí will increase from its current level of 14,267 to almost 14,900 by the end of 2009. It will increase by more than 1,100, or 8%, over 2008 and 2009. There are 1,100 recruits in training and 400 new recruits will be taken on in 2009. The significant increase in the policing hours available will more than offset the planned reduction in the overtime budget, from €108 million in 2008 to €80 million in 2009. In the past 21 months, the number of civilians employed in whole time positions by the Garda has increased by 59% to 2,038. It has increased by 20% in 2008. Over the years, the general public, along with most public representatives in both Houses of the Oireachtas and elsewhere, complained that too many gardaí were sitting in stations doing desk duties. There has been a rapid increase in civilianisation over recent years. If one takes into account part-time and temporary employees, the total number of civilians employed by the force increases to approximately 2,600. Given that there will be almost 15,000 gardaí in the force at the end of next year, it is clear there has been a significant increase in the number of people working for the Garda Síochána.

The stark and regrettable reality is that the growing gun culture in Ireland is inevitably having fatal consequences. I accept that our priority has to be to rid this society of illegal weapons. That has been a priority of Operation Anvil which, as I have indicated, has had considerable success. Since my appointment as Minister, I have expressed concern about the number of handguns which have been licensed here in recent years. The majority of licensed firearms holders act responsibly and pursue their interests legitimately. Many of them deeply resent any reference that is made to the increase in the issue of licensed handguns in the context of our crime problem. As Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I cannot deny that an increase in the number of weapons of a certain type that are in circulation can add to a gun culture. Such a gun culture already operates in criminal gangs. I regret that the activities of criminal gangs are impinging on the interests of law-abiding owners of licensed firearms. I cannot overlook the fact that the overall level and kind of licensed firearms prevalent in the community is relevant to the prevention of crime. This problem is demonstrated by the fact that 27 licensed handguns, including some very serious firearms, have been stolen since 2005. A further 1,236 other firearms were stolen during the same period, some 373 of which were recovered.

All handguns were banned in this jurisdiction from the early 1970s, during the Troubles, until 2004. That is no longer the case, following a series of judicial decisions. Approximately 1,800 handguns have been licensed since 2004. No public policy decision was made to bring about this situation. During the summer, Mr. Justice Charleton said in a judgment that any "reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns". I am concerned that the number of handguns licensed could grow exponentially if strong and decisive action is not taken. We could develop a similar firearms regime to that of countries like the United States, which has a very different attitude to weapons. That would be unacceptable.

Some time ago, I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to conduct an urgent and intensive review of firearms law. Following the review, I introduced proposals to provide that no new licenses will be issued for handguns, subject to limited exceptions in the case of Olympic sports, and existing licenses will not be renewed unless applicants fully meet the requirements of a radically tightened licensing procedure whereby the safety of the community will be paramount. In his judgment on a recent case, Mr. Justice Birmingham indicated that he has some worries in this regard. A District Court judge, Kevin Kilraine, has also indicated his opposition to some of what is happening within the licensing regime.

I hope Members on all sides of the House will feel able to support these proposals. They are not designed to interfere needlessly with the rights of sporting enthusiasts, but to recognise the specific dangers posed by guns. I welcome the fact that the head of the Garda Inspectorate, Kathy O'Toole, who is well known and had broad experience when she was the Boston Police Commissioner, has written strongly in favour of the proposed handgun ban in the latest edition of the Law Society Gazette. While a de facto ban on new handgun licences is already in place, my proposals will be given legislative form in the forthcoming criminal justice (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, which will be published early in the new year. The Bill will tackle comprehensively the issue of airsoft guns by making their possession in public a serious offence. It will contain measures that the Garda Commissioner has suggested to me in respect of the tightening of the law on the possession of knives.

I wish to speak about the problem of guns held or used illegally. Severe penalties for firearms offences are in place under the Criminal Justice Act 2006. For example, the possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and the use of a firearm to resist arrest or aid escape carry a mandatory minimum sentence of ten years. Offences such as the possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle, the possession of a firearm or ammunition in suspicious circumstances, the carrying of a firearm with criminal intent and the alteration of a firearm carry a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. It must be remembered that the mandatory penalty for murder, whether using a firearm, is life imprisonment.

The Government has approved my proposals for a criminal justice (covert surveillance) Bill and I recently published the general scheme. The Bill will open up the possibility of intelligence gained through secret surveillance being used as evidence in the prosecution of cases involving serious criminal activity. In the light of the increasing sophistication of criminals, subversives and terrorists, their use of intermediaries and the associated difficulties in obtaining direct evidence, the use of additional evidence is crucial. The Bill will provide for a system of authorisation of covert surveillance, operations which will, as a rule, involve an application to a judge for authorisation to proceed with the surveillance and where the reasons for the surveillance will be clearly set out before the court. The Bill also provides that in cases of exceptional urgency a senior member of the Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces may approve a surveillance operation for a period of no more than 14 days.

Work is also ongoing on the preparation of the general scheme of the criminal procedure Bill. While this Bill is primarily aimed at giving effect to the legislative aspects of the justice for victims initiative which I announced in June, some elements will be of considerable benefit in our fight against serious crime. In particular, I am thinking of the proposal that will enable the Director of Public Prosecutions to seek a retrial where an acquittal is tainted due, for example, to intimidation of witnesses or jurors. There will also be a provision on expert evidence, to ensure the prosecution is given adequate opportunity to examine and challenge evidence being introduced by the defence; in other words, there will be a levelling of the pitch. I expect to be in a position to seek Government approval for the drafting of the Bill in December with a view to its publication in the spring.

Work is also ongoing on the criminal justice (forensic evidence and sampling) Bill which will provide for the establishment of a DNA database for criminal investigation purposes. Such a database will, as has been the experience in other countries, greatly enhance the intelligence available to the Garda Síochána. I expect to be in a position to publish the Bill early in the new year. In difficult financial circumstances, I have made provision in the Estimates for my Department for next year for an €18 million funding package for new state-of-the-art forensic science facilities and State pathology laboratory. This will enable the work on DNA database to proceed once the new legislation is in place.

Many of our reforms have been targeted at the fight against gangland crime. The Criminal Justice Acts of 2006 and 2007, in particular, introduced wide-ranging initiatives to strengthen the capacity of the Garda Síochána to tackle crime. While I do not intend to list every reform, I want to highlight some of the more far-reaching. In the cases of offences connected with organised crime such as murder or kidnapping involving the use of firearms or explosives, detention of up to seven days is possible. The bail laws have been strengthened in order to allow the prosecution to mount a more effective challenge to bail applications, for example, opinion evidence from a chief superintendent that bail should be refused because the applicant is likely to commit a serious offence is admissible. The circumstances in which inferences may be drawn at trial from a suspect's silence in response to Garda questioning have been expanded.

As with all such reforms, it takes time for their impact to be seen in criminal trials. It is naïve to think measures we enact in the House one day will immediately transform the situation the next. However, we have recently begun to see clear evidence that these reforms are working. For example, the figures for 2007 showed a doubling of the number of mandatory minimum ten-year sentences handed down by the courts in drug trafficking cases, compared with 2006. We have seen the provisions allowing for witness statements which a witness fails to stand over or recants to be used in evidence helping to secure a conviction in a recent trial. Up to 11 people who had previously given statements subsequently refused to give evidence or when they went into the witness box, could not remember what had happened. As a result of a change that the House and Oireachtas generally made, the judge in that case was able to take the original written statements provided by the people concerned as their evidence. A positive ruling has also been handed down by the Special Criminal Court in respect of the provisions on the drawing of inferences.

We cannot overlook the fact that the demand for drugs is the lifeblood of many criminal gangs. Anyone, from whatever class or background, who uses illicit drugs is not well placed to deplore the activities of gangs when in reality they are complicit in these activities. The Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Curran, is drawing up the national drugs strategy for the next eight years. I expect that strategy will be debated fully in the House. I will confine myself to saying I reject completely suggestions made from time to time from some quarters that the answer lies in legalising drugs. That overlooks completely the harm that comes from drug abuse and would be handing a victory to purveyors of death and destruction.

As we recently had statements in the House on the excellent work being done by the Criminal Assets Bureau, I will not go over that ground again, other than to say four months ago when I was preparing the Estimates, I earmarked a 20% increase for the bureau.

The increasing use of guns in our society raises serious issues which must be and are being addressed. However, we must do so in the context of the factual position. The CSO crime statistics for the third quarter of this year show a continuing marked decrease in homicide offences, of 57% in the quarter. The number of murders in the quarter reduced by 50% and instances of dangerous driving leading to death by 85.7%, with no percentage change in cases of manslaughter. There has also been an 8.3% decrease in the number of murder threats. Year-on-year there has been a decrease of 50% in the number of homicide offences, including a 33% decrease in the number of murders. This downward trend is continuing. The number of firearms murders to date this year is on a par with that in the same period last year — 21 compared with 18. Obviously, 21 firearms murders are 21 too many.

There is no doubt that some of the gangland killings occur in the wake of Garda activity directed against gangs. That activity has led to a situation where gang members have sought retribution against other gang members as a result of the Garda success. Such killings are to be deplored but the Garda cannot and will not be deflected from taking every possible action against gangs just because there is that danger. Let me put something beyond doubt. I pledge, on behalf of the Government, that all resources of the State will be used in our unstinting endeavours to ensure there will be no hiding place for those who engage in gangland activities and the illegal use of guns. I reiterate that our first priority is the fight against crime and keeping gardaí on the streets to deal with the burgeoning gun culture, particularly illegal guns. It is a priority of the Garda and the State resources to ensure they are all apprehended. Thankfully, since 2005, under Operation Anvil, some 2,200 firearms have been apprehended.

I can appreciate that Members on both sides of the House have been lobbied by gun clubs on my stated intentions regarding licensed handguns. I can accept that this is a difficult issue. I am not so naïve as to think that moving on licensed handguns will solve the overall crime problem, in particular, the illegal use of handguns by organised criminals. However, when a judge brings to the attention of the public and the Oireachtas that any reasonable person would need to feel alarmed at the proliferation of licensed handguns, that is an indication that we should do something about it. In conjunction with my Cabinet colleagues, I finally decided that the people do not want a gun culture here. They want to be sure that we will not go down the road followed by other countries. Regardless of whether it was decided by the Legislature or whether it just happened as a result of court decisions — as happened recently here — given that we have gone from zero licensed handguns in 2004 to 1,800 today, we need to take action. If we did not take action and if, God forbid, something did happen as a result of the use of a licensed handgun by the person licensed or a person who had stolen it, the public and media commentators would validly ask why the politicians had not acted.

I welcome the Minister. I also welcome his exposé on Government policy on tackling gun crime involving both legally and illegally held weapons. The Minister's speech was a clap on the back — we are doing very well, the resources are in place, and if the legislation is not, it is being worked on very diligently. The Minister mentioned the issue of Garda numbers and I appreciate the Government is playing catch-up on promises made in the past about Garda numbers. In view of the alarming rate of serious crimes, however, especially gangland crime, I do not think we should be clapping ourselves on the back for getting the number of gardaí right for a growing population and an increasing incidence of the most serious forms of crime.

The Minister's emphasis is on legally held weapons. He pointed out in his speech that 1,800 handguns have been licensed, mainly since 2004. He said there was no public policy decision to bring this about. However, it did happen under the watch of a Fianna Fáil-led Government. To suggest it was not a conscious policy decision is not very helpful. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister are responsible for this policy area, and the increase in the licensing of guns and handguns was apparent to them. The Minister is now saying that Mr. Justice Peter Charleton pointed this out and we have to act. The reality is that all this information has long been available to the Minister and his predecessor and to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is a case of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. The Minister indicated that he has introduced proposals to deal with the situation, which include the issuing of no new licences for handguns subject to certain exceptions. However, this can only be done through legislation, and there is legislation in place. Where is the legislation? If the Minister is intent on dealing with this, let us see the legislation and we will deal with the specifics of the proposals he has introduced.

There are a number of areas of legislation about which the Minister has spoken. He stated: "The Government has approved my proposals for a criminal justice (covert surveillance) Bill, and I have published the general scheme." Again, we would like to see the Bill. It has long been known that action was needed in this area and that the existing legislation was antiquated and ineffective. We are still at the stage of proposals and promises of legislation. The Minister also speaks about the general scheme of the criminal procedure Bill, giving effect to the legislative aspects of the justice for victims initiative. Again, we await this Bill.

The Minister also stated: "Work is ... ongoing on the criminal justice (forensic evidence and sampling) Bill which will provide for the establishment of a DNA database for criminal investigation purposes." This is the one area in which the Government has been particularly negligent. A DNA database is important for combating crime, especially the more serious forms of crime. DNA investigation has proven an essential source of material for detecting and prosecuting crime, yet we are still at the stage of drafting a Bill in this regard. While we are all agreed on the objectives, there is a lack of urgency from the Government and the Minister. To say that work is ongoing on such important Bills, when we have had announcements of this type of legislation on and off over recent years means we are not moving at the required pace. I would like to see a bit more urgency in this regard.

The figures clearly show there has been a significant increase in the number of legally held handguns and firearms in general. That is an issue that must be considered. We must have legislation which does not interfere with those who hold these firearms for sporting activities and other genuine reasons. That is why we need to ensure the precise wording of the Bill allows those pursuing a legitimate sport or interest to continue to do so.

The killing of Aidan O'Kane in East Wall last week was shocking. The notion that a teenager could gain access to a firearm and kill someone is most disturbing and highlights the question of the source of weapons for those who act illegally. We must obtain the exact number of legally held firearms that are stolen and elucidate the connection with gangland crime and other serious crime. It is important to get this legislation right. I understand where the Minister is coming from in this regard, but we need to see the details of the Bill. There are figures for stolen firearms, but it appears that since 2005 only 27 handguns have been stolen, some of which were recovered. The figures for stealing and illegal use of firearms do not jump out at one, as it were. However, I accept that, overall, it would be a surprise to many people to hear the total number of firearms in the State in 2008 was 232,000.

It was very helpful of Mr. Justice Charleton to highlight the problem, because he has highlighted other deficiencies and loopholes in criminal law. I am pleased that on this occasion the Minister is taking heed. It is unfortunate that Mr. Justice Charleton had to do this before the Government would examine the statistics and figures it had on hand for some years and decide to act. I hope the issue of the licensing of legally held firearms and the changes in legislation being considered by the Minister do not deflect from the real issue, which is the obtaining of illegal firearms and their use for the most dastardly crimes. This initiative of the Minister should not deflect from that priority. I also ask the Minister to take into account some of the ideas that have been put forward by Fine Gael in the draft criminal justice (violent crimes prevention) Bill when he is considering this legislation.

This is a very important debate on the subject of gun crime. Crime of any description, especially murder, is deplorable. The catalyst for this debate was the unfortunate murder of Mr. O'Kane in East Wall.

I live in a very peaceful location in the Mizen peninsula and at this time of Christmas I always ponder the appalling, high profile murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier which occurred half a mile from my home in a peaceful and quiet location. This murder remains unsolved. Everyone in that peninsula remembers that appalling murder at Christmas 12 years ago. I hope that sometime in the near future this murder can be solved and the perpetrator of that appalling, dastardly, cowardly crime will be found. This was a woman enjoying her holiday home peacefully at Christmas and she was brutally battered to death outside her home. My thoughts are with the French family as the event will never be forgotten by those close to her. I had the opportunity on one occasion to meet that stunning and wonderful lady.

I commend the Minister on his wonderful work as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The statistics show that we are winning the battle against crime. We will never have a Utopian situation with no murders and no guns on the streets but we are winning the battle as proved by the statistics referred to by the Minister.

Crime statistics for the third quarter of 2008 show a decrease in homicide offences of 57%. Decreases were also recorded in murder offences, which were down 50%, and dangerous driving leading to death, which was down 85%, with no change in the case of manslaughter offences. These statistics are a clear indication that the policies and the draconian and powerful legislation introduced by this Government and the previous Government over the past ten or 11 years, are working. I was a Member of the Dáil from 2002 to 2007 and we were being accused from some quarters of bringing in legislation that was too extreme and draconian. That legislation is now bearing fruit in that there has been a decrease in crime. I would be the first to say that any murder of any description is appalling.

I welcome the proposed legislation to curb the use of handguns and to restrict their licensing. Unless one is a farmer trying to protect stock against marauding dogs or foxes, I do not see the reason for people holding handguns. The remarks made by Mr. Justice Charleton are to be welcomed. It is good that senior judges, District Court judges, Members of the Oireachtas or even persons in society who are aware of an issue can offer their comments which are positive and constructive.

The legislation will make it more difficult to obtain bail for drugs trafficking and firearms offences. The Government has approved proposals by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to introduce new legislation underpinning the use of covert surveillance methods by the Garda Síochána. On that point, does the Minister of State envisage that other agencies will be given such powers, such as Customs and Excise when dealing with drugs crimes? Under this legislation the State will be able to use collateral material obtained by means of covert surveillance as evidence to support or strengthen the case for the prosecution. I expect this legislation will be strongly challenged in the courts and on constitutional grounds.

We must be proactive at all times in bringing in legislation because crime is now very sophisticated. Some of these criminal gangs have the best equipment available. A young garda told me recently that gardaí are now being trained to use types of weaponry that the criminal mobsters have been using for the past five to seven years. It is like playing catch-up but I am glad we are succeeding. I commend the Minister and the Government on the fact that at the beginning of 2009, we will reach that magnificent target of having 15,000 gardaí on the streets, something that could not have been envisaged ten years ago. This is to be welcomed. Many of the current gardaí are better trained. The new recruits from Templemore are more intelligent and sophisticated and a very bright bunch of gardaí. I acknowledge the tremendous work of the Garda. One can imagine what Dublin city or any part of Ireland would be like if gardaí were not on patrol. I compliment the Minister and his predecessor on Operation Anvil. It is very comforting to us that more than 2,000 guns have been taken off the streets having been confiscated by gardaí in raids, whether in Limerick, Cork or in Dublin. I hope this continues. The Garda Síochána is very proactive.

I see the fight against crime as needing a three-pronged approach. The Minister leads with his responsibility for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána is the second prong operating on the ground and the third prong is society, something that is overlooked. Society can sometimes become complacent. The Minister made a valid point in his speech. One must take away the reason for the existence of drug lords. Some people we know are users of drugs. There may be a decrease in the use of drugs because of the recession, please God, and a decline in the use of cocaine at parties or in clubs by these sophisticated people. I refer not to the impoverished people who are addicts and who are lying in the streets but rather to the well-heeled members of society who use drugs. If society actively accepts in any way that we can and should use drugs, the mobsters, warlords and drug lords will prosper as it will be a stimulus to their activities. We cannot ignore the role of society in the area of drugs.

The use and importation of drugs brings with them the use of various types of sophisticated weapons such as Glock pistols. I commend the Minister and the Department and all concerned. In the past 12 to 15 months, there have been two significant hauls of drugs which may not necessarily have been destined for Ireland but rather for Europe. One recent haul was in Castletownbere, which case is sub judice, and the other was the famous haul off the Mizen peninsula. The amount of drugs was alarmingly high. We are talking not about grams but tonnes of cocaine destined for either the London market or the European market.

Once society becomes more responsible and stops using drugs, the work and success of the Garda Síochána, the Department and the Minister will be more obvious.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, to the House. I was impressed by the concern expressed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the moderate tone in which he spoke. We have a large problem with gun crime and the danger is we could bend over backwards in an attempt to solve it and still fail. One reason we have not been able to fight crime in the past is because we have been too protective of the accused to ensure no one was ever wrongly convicted. On occasions, we have bent over backwards to protect the accused and the guilty rather than protecting the innocent. I remember 12 years ago the journalist, Veronica Guerin, spent a day in Leinster House with me and listened to a debate in the Visitors Gallery. It was three weeks before she was killed. The criminal laws that we passed until her death were not strong enough because there were many voices of concern about going too far. After her death, the catalyst which changed matters, we introduced legislation that got the balance a little bit better. Even in 1996, we were not speaking of the extent of the gun culture we now have.

I was pleased the Minister referred to an €18 million investment in the Garda pathology laboratory to assist in DNA testing and recording. There will be howls of protest about individual's privacy and data protection but we need this investment. When I met Rudy Giuliani, the former Mayor of New York, he informed me he had introduced DNA testing and a database in New York. The liberal attitude was negative to this. In one of the first instances of using DNA testing, however, he was able to prove the accused was not guilty because it was someone else's DNA on the murder weapon. He used it as an instance to remind us that there are times when legislation, introduced to protect those who might otherwise be innocent, actually saves the wrongfully accused. We need strong criminal legislation that can be enforced and takes into account the rights of the innocent.

While the majority of firearms licences are for hunting rifles and shotguns, target shooting also has a long history in Ireland. In August 1972, the then Minister for Justice, Mr. Des O'Malley, made an order under the Firearms Act 1964 that all private, registered pistols and rifles above .22 calibre be handed in for a maximum of one month. The one-month temporary custody order was extended by successive Governments for 32 years, however, which had a major impact on shooting sports. The extension of the custody order was only brought to an end in 2004 by a constitutional challenge by a private citizen. Within three months of the ban being lifted, an Irish target shooting team competed in the Austrian open shooting championship and took six podium places. A balance needs to be taken into account. I was pleased the Minister acknowledged his proposed legislation on firearms would take into account shooting sports and may include limited exceptions to the handgun ban for use in Olympic sports.

The number of handgun licences granted has increased significantly since 2004. According to Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform figures, of the slightly more than 233,000 firearms licensed in the State, more than 177,000 are for shotguns with rifles accounting for 54,000. In July 2008, Mr. Justice Peter Charleton said there was a pressing need for drawing together into a clear law the multiple piecemeal rules on the control of handguns. He said reasonable people were entitled to feel alarmed about a substantial increase in the number of pistols licensed for private use in recent years.

The increased growth of gun licences, in the four years since the High Court overturned the 30-year ruling banning them, is astonishing. In addition, 1,263 registered firearms, including 27 handguns, have been stolen since 2003. Something has to be done about this increase in gun ownership.

However, the argument that gun murders will go down if there is a ban is irrelevant. Drug dealers will not worry that their illegally held handgun will have to be handed in at their local Garda station. In the UK, pistols were banned between 1997 and 1998 yet murder rates increased in the period. This emphasises the simple fact that civilian ownership of lawfully held firearms has little or no effect on crime rates.

This debate can easily overlook the root cause of much of the gun crime — drugs. Unfortunately, so many drugs get into the country and almost all of the recent drug seizures have happened owing to accidents caused by bad weather, ships breaking down, etc. Tackling gun crime is inextricably linked to criminal gangs and drugs. While banning handguns is a media-friendly initiative, there must be a real drive to limit the importation of drugs to stop the power of criminal gangs. This is the real root problem of gun murders.

The real problem that must be addressed is not that there are more guns on the streets but that there is more circulation of guns. One gun may be used by several individuals in several different crimes. Guns are now often sold on or rented out. For instance, a weapon used in a shooting in Limerick may be linked to a murder in Dublin or elsewhere. We need to ensure we are accurately keeping track of these weapons used by several people. The national ballistics intelligence programme, a police database, was launched this year in the UK to keep track of such weapons. In America, the integrated ballistics identification system does a similar job. We must ensure the ballistics section of the Garda technical bureau is given adequate resources in this fight, as good as in other countries, before introducing blanket bans.

The problem of improvised weapons, that is of replicas converted to fire live ammunition, will become an even larger problem. This aspect of weapon conversions may be of as much importance as the banning of conventional handguns. I welcome the moderate tone taken by the Minister but also his tone of concern. The actions he is taking are in the right direction. I welcome this debate before the Bill is introduced in the new year. I hope we will have a chance to go through it and ensure, in doing so, that we save lives.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, to the House. I welcome also this timely debate on gun crime. There is much public anxiety and a genuine sense of insecurity about the current level of gun crime. The public is looking for a strong and adequate response. There is no scope for the legal possession of handguns in this country. Other Members have said that almost 1,300 guns, included 27 handguns, were reported stolen over the past six years. Of these, only 373 were recovered. Operation Anvil against organised crime has seized 1,192 firearms since May 2005. Many of these weapons fall into the hands of drug criminals who subsequently use them to terrorise, maim and kill in pursuit of their vile trade. We know of innocent victims who have been highlighted in the media coverage of these terrible gun crimes received. Some names include Aidan O'Kane, who was murdered recently in East Wall, and Donna Cleary. The list goes on of innocent civilians murdered accidentally or in error. They die at the hands of those participating in gun crimes. I back the move by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to bring in an outright ban on handguns. I disagree with those who argue that legally held guns are not a threat. From the early 1970s until 2004, handguns were effectively banned as part of the effort to curb the threat of paramilitaries. Owing to a series of court rulings, this was relaxed and the number of legally held handguns has increased significantly in recent years. I welcome the de facto ban on issuing new handgun licences which the Minister has introduced. He is also to be congratulated on his plan to introduce legislation early next year to ban all handguns.

There are 1,800 legally held handguns in the Republic. If the current rates of growth in gun licensing are sustained, we could have ownership rates comparable with some US states. This would be unacceptable in a country that has kept a civilian unarmed police force through many crises. What we need is better targeting, detection and prevention of crime. Unfortunately, the majority of gun crimes in this country are drug related. We have dangerous gangs operating in the country, involved in organised crime, human trafficking and drug trafficking. It is incumbent on the Government to provide better resources to our police force for the better targeting, detection and prevention of these crimes.

We need to see prison sentences strengthened. I call for at least a ten-year sentence for the illegal possession of firearms. Fewer than one in five gun crimes result in a conviction. Unfortunately, the figures are disappointingly low. There was a 17% conviction rate for gun crime in 2003, 18% in 2004, and it fell to 15% in 2005. I call for the introduction of an absolute ban on the legal possession of handguns. There is a danger that we are going down the road of an emerging gun culture similar to those we see in some states of the US. This would not be in the interests of Ireland or our civilian unarmed police force. For that reason, we need to move quickly. I support the move by the Minister to introduce an outright ban on handguns and to control the licensing of handguns from this point on.

I welcome the opportunity to debate this issue. I commend the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government generally on addressing this serious issue and the urgent need for revised firearms legislation. There are two facets to this debate which are not mutually exclusive. These involve the legal private ownership of firearms and the critical issue of how many firearms are in circulation in the criminal community. I will address private ownership first.

In July, Mr. Justice Peter Charleton called for urgent reform of what he termed our piecemeal controls on the ownership and use of handguns. He said that reasonable people were entitled to feel alarmed about a large increase in the number of pistols licensed for private use in Ireland in recent years. Four years ago, clause 4.1 of the Firearms Act, which had been in place since 1972, was found to be unconstitutional following a challenge from a private citizen. The clause stated that all private registered pistols and rifles above the .22 calibre should be handed in to the Garda Síochána. It is worth remembering why those handguns were removed from circulation in 1972 and 1973. I spoke to my father, who was a garda in a Border county at the time. The measure was taken because of the Troubles and the dangers of handguns entering an inflamed situation. At the time, all owners were asked to give their handguns to the Garda Síochána.

Since the removal of the clause four years ago, people have been able to carry handguns again. There has been a considerable increase in the number of private firearms owned by individuals. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform estimates that there are almost 250,000 handguns, rifles and shotguns registered in the State. The majority doubtless are held by law-abiding upstanding citizens. I agree with Mr. Justice Charleton that it is troubling that there are so many firearms in the State.

Of graver concern is the number of handguns. As it stands, there are 1,800 legal handguns in the State. I have been contacted by many owners of private handguns. They have impressed upon me the seriousness with which they take the responsibility of ownership of a handgun. They told me that they all must undertake training and must be members of an approved and Garda authorised club. Security measures in their homes must be set up to prevent people robbing the handguns. We saw 27 handguns stolen from people's houses over recent years. A further 1,237 other types of firearms were stolen. We must bear in mind that the removal of these handguns will not solve the problem of legally held firearms entering the criminal world. That will still exist and must be addressed outside of legislation on handguns. This point was made by Senator de Búrca. I am glad the Minister is making exemptions for Olympic sports. I ask him to meet members of the private handgun owners clubs to see if some accommodation can be made to allow them to enjoy their pastime.

I refer to how we tackle gun crime and illegally held firearms. The erosion of public safety in the face of gun crime and gang law presents a considerable challenge to the security of our citizens. The idea that people can be shot in broad daylight demands immediate action. As we respond to the issue of gun crime in our society, we should not concern ourselves with labels of left, right, liberal or conservative. Ideology does not come into it. Our commitment should be directed to those policies that will work on the ground.

I propose a two-pronged strategy. We must punish to the full extent of the law those criminals who take or threaten to take the lives of others with guns. According to the Central Statistics Office, the number of shootings in Ireland jumped from 211 in 2003 to 325 last year, an increase of more than 50% in four years. Any individual in this State who engages in gun crime should be dispassionately subjected to the full extent of the law. Mandatory sentences for possessing an illegal firearm and lengthy sentences for the discharge of a firearm must be considered. If we are to be successful in rebalancing the burden of fear away from the innocent member of society and onto the criminal, we must provide the Garda Síochána with sufficient and adequate resources. Well-trained community gardaí would ease the pressure on local communities and free up personnel for deployment in areas where they are required. We must invest in those elite Garda units trained to deal with gun crime and bomb threats.

In an interview in a recent edition of the Garda Review magazine, Detective Sergeant Higgins, a specialist in ballistics, stated that the workload had increased but the resources available to deal with the workload had remained the same. Highly trained, specialist units examine murder scenes on a national basis and are recognised as the experts in the field of crime scene interpretation. These units must be expanded and supported so that their expertise can be used to maximum effect. There is also need to tackle the roots of gun crime, and this is something Senator Quinn referred to in his contribution. There is usually a reason for guns and typically it is drugs. Chief Superintendent Mahon confirmed that there was a substantial and worrying return last year to the importation and distribution of heroin. Of the €3 million worth of drugs seized in Limerick, some 42% was heroin. We are all aware of the danger of heroin but drug use and gun crime are closely linked. We must tackle these issues together.

At the top end of the gun crime problem we must punish offenders and send a message that actions directly endangering the lives of citizens will be met by relentless enforcement of the law. Criminality, especially gun crime, is an ongoing developmental problem and it is essential we tackle the issue at an embryonic stage. Last month the British Journal of Criminology published a landmark study that comprehensively outlines the link between the criminal behaviour of parents and that of their children. The study states a father who engages in delinquent acts teaches the skills, norms and values needed to display such anti-social behaviour. The more time a child spends with a criminal father the greater the probability that he or she will engage in delinquent acts also. This study was reviewed by peers and published in the British Journal of Criminology. It found that children of persistent offenders were considerably more likely to commit crimes than those of non-offenders. The authors also found that children of persistent criminals tended to engage in more delinquent acts in every phase of their lives. It is imperative that we deploy resources in high crime areas with lower socio-economic demographics. We need to tackle and punish the perpetrators of crime but it is also our duty to show a generation of potential criminals that there is an alternative way of life.

Yesterday the head of the Garda inspectorate, Kathleen O'Toole, stated the Irish could learn from what had happened in Boston where 1,000 people who were in danger of becoming involved in gun crime were identified by police and liaison officers. They and their families were targeted with a range of community educational resources to fend off any potential transition into crime. Ms O'Toole recommended that we consider something similar.

If we are serious about targeting gun crime, we need to intervene at all levels. We need to be tough on the perpetrators of crime. However, we also need to support and engage with young people who are in danger of turning to crime in the first instance. The generation of violent criminals on our streets deserve punishment first and rehabilitation later. A generation is waiting to take their place. It is prior to lives being ruined and lost that we need to intervene and effect real change.

We are at tipping point with regard to gun crime. We need a collaborative approach to it rather than expecting the Government and the Garda Síochána to deal with the matter. Prevention and intervention are as important as enforcement. Bullets cannot be repelled with legislation and denunciation. We need new thinking. We need to learn from other countries where young people at risk of engaging in gun crime are identified by police and they and their families are targeted with a range of resources to prevent their progress into serious criminality. We need to mobilise local task forces and perhaps give the go-ahead to the joint policing committees to work with schools, the probation and welfare service and social services to gain access to the homes of young people who could be at risk of becoming involved in gun crime.

Often, the children concerned are brought up by single mothers trying to make ends meet. During previous debates on crime I stated we needed to examine our family law legislation, with particular reference to unmarried fathers. We need to make fathers more responsible for their children and have men in the lives of the children concerned. It is ridiculous to have time in the courts spent by fathers applying for guardianship of children. If they were given responsibility for their children from the word go, we would have a far better fabric of society.

We must not be shy in stating the State must think ahead and intervene. However, we need to intervene when the young people concerned are in the cradle to keep them out of harm's way. In this context, we need to examine job creation, literacy programmes, summer camps, extra social services and activities. I agree with what the Minister stated on tackling gun crime. However, we are considering it from one end only, as opposed to from the beginning.

DNA testing was mentioned and it is absolutely vital. We also need tougher policing. In the United Kingdom tougher policing has resulted in a reduction in street crime by 16% since the introduction of the street crime initiative. This shows the effectiveness of carefully targeted co-ordinated and well resourced policing measures. Senator Quinn mentioned the increase in the number of murders and gun crime in the United Kingdom, despite strict gun legislation, which is of note. We can learn from this when we introduce legislation next year.

The increase in the use of cocaine and its link with gun crime and culture was also mentioned. We know for a fact and have seen evidence that some of the cocaine sent to Ireland comes with a number of unasked for guns. It is normal that guns and drugs are given to gangs to be used in continuing their reign of terror. That is a fact. We may have lost some of the battles in this regard but should not tolerate the activities of those who think it is smart or sophisticated to use guns. While many older gangland criminals might be beyond rehabilitation and require a harder policing approach, we must never give up hope the next generation could be engaged and developed.

I note the recent comments by the head of the Garda inspectorate, Ms Kathleen O'Toole, mentioned by the Minister. She told the Law Society Gazette that if more gardaí were relieved from court duties, they could spend time on the beat in communities and help prevent gun crime. This might result in effective intervention in the lives of young people at risk. It is the type of constructive solution we need. On Monday last week I was in Wexford District Court and counted 30 gardaí waiting to give evidence; approximately five of the cases ran. This is a complete waste of time. I am not sure many gun crimes are committed in the morning but if this statistic is replicated throughout the country, one can see my point. Valuable time is wasted while files could be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions and witnesses interviewed.

I commend the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the proposed de facto ban on legally held handguns. The evidence is that many guns are being used to commit crimes in the State and that guns are stolen. We must tackle this trend through the introduction of controls. Therefore, the Minister’s proposal is welcome.

Although by international standards gun crime is not at the crisis point it has reached in other countries, we must not see this as an excuse to adopt a soft approach. Laws dealing with gun criminals need to be significantly toughened and the ringleaders need to be taken out of circulation with the youngest placed in secure accommodation, if necessary, or subject to intervention. Members of the public are afraid of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and we have had a myriad of examples during the year. Most murders involving the use of guns are gangland related and stem from the use of drugs and the money that can be made from them. I gather we have had examples of professional gunmen and mercenaries being flown in from abroad to take people out before leaving again. This is a frightening prospect for us to face as a society. One can throw all the resources and legislation one wants at the problem of gun crime but more people are using drugs. Drugs were confined to deprived parts of our cities 20 or 30 years ago and a scourge on the less well-off in society. However, despite our best efforts, the drugs culture is expanding, as increased numbers of the middle class use them. Senator O'Donovan was hopeful that in these recessionary times drug use would decrease but, unfortunately, the facts prove the opposite. As greater demand for leisure drugs is generated, more drugs enter the State, drug barons make more money and become more vicious in doing what is necessary to protect their patch. Citizens must face up to this frightening reality. The sophistication of the weaponry being used has also been mentioned and it is frightening. Automatic and semi-automatic handguns are weapons used by foreign armies.

Gun crime is largely linked with gangland and drug crimes. However, last week I heard a story which was a direct replica of a soap opera event on "Eastenders" and played out to the letter in rural Ireland. We must examine the effect soap operas have on society. This might seem facetious but it is true and I have heard many examples. People believe what they see on television is true. We are approaching Christmas and people are not in the best of form. They will watch what is happening on "Eastenders" and "Fair City". The media must take responsibility and stop glamorising crime, particularly gun crime.

Domestic violence and crime against women need to be mentioned in this debate. We need to examine our laws on domestic violence and make it easier for women to come forward. Many crimes are perpetrated against women; we had another horrific example last night. It was not a gun crime as a knife was used which leads me to believe that even if we remove guns from society, knives will still be in use. We are at tipping point. Guns must not become a permanent feature of our landscape. We need to get rid of them altogether. I commend the Minister on his bravery and courage in his efforts to do this.

With regard to drugs and gun crime, it seems that in many instances, despite the welcome intervention of Mr. Justice Charleton, the Judiciary has ignored the minimum mandatory penalties laid down by the Oireachtas.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, to the House for this debate on gun crime. He is usually here to discuss food issues.

The Minister of State is not just for Christmas.

I welcome this debate, particularly the views expressed by Senator McDonald. Other speakers have pointed to efforts to curb crime through legislation. Instead, I intend to focus on the roots of crime. These types of crimes happen for a reason. We have seen young teenagers shooting people dead on the streets. In the United Kingdom, a teenager was convicted in recent days of the murder of Rhys Jones. This corresponds to the alleged involvement of a young teenager in the awful murder of Aidan O'Kane.

The children who perpetrate these crimes have been known to the authorities for a long time. They are out of control and identified as at risk. These types of problems manifest themselves at an early stage within the education system. I spent 20 years in that system before becoming a Member of this House. In the mid-1990s, the then president of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, Ms Sally Shields, spoke about identifying children at risk. Teachers can recognise such children from an early age and are aware of the circumstances of their home environment. They are not being targeted and helped. Such support would be to the good of society in general as well as helping the children themselves.

There must be an interdepartmental effort to deal with the causes and roots of crime, led by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Education and Science. There must be engagement with youth groups in an effort to provide alternatives for young people and to keep them off the streets. In other words, we must save them from themselves.

Some weeks ago, I visited the schools in the area of Liverpool where Rhys Jones lived. The problems that are evident there are also evident in the East Wall and in other socially disadvantaged areas in the State. The reality is that some parents are incapable of parenting, with many of them unable to control their aggressive behaviour towards their children and others. There is also a small minority of parents who do not want to parent and who allow their children to run wild. It is time to give up on such parents. These are harsh words, but when school principals and management boards blame parents, it is often a cop-out on the part of the schools. We know in our heart that such parents will not intervene.

I have done a considerable amount of research into the issue of underachievement by pupils in disadvantaged areas. The most remarkable aspect of this is the evidence of great intentions but lack of consistency by parents. They are available to the children only at certain times. We are fooling ourselves that we can rely on these people to parent and keep their children off the street and out of trouble. The only way to ensure a better future for these children is to put in place adequate supports and resources in schools.

One such resource, which has been cut back in the budget, is the provision of home-school liaison teachers. Those teachers have an opportunity to see and record the difficulties being experienced by these children in their homes. The entitlement to the appointment of one of these teachers was removed in the budget for schools other than those designated as disadvantaged under the delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, programme. It is vital to recognise that there are disadvantaged children in every school, even where those schools are in middle class areas. Such children will now be deprived of this resource. I appeal to the Minister of State to ensure the right supports are in place in all schools.

An usher told me earlier today that children who are in difficulty can be recognised at an early age through their involvement in sport. Many of the children who are at risk of being bred into crime have great talents and gifts, but they need special help to realise their potential. Above all, they need an alternative curriculum. One size does not fit all. I have visited many second level schools as part of my work as a learning consultant. I was hired privately by the schools to work with children in this situation. It is a waste of time expecting the traditional junior certificate or leaving certificate, or even the applied leaving certificate programme, to suit them. It is a waste of time expecting these children to do homework. I suggested to the previous Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, that provision should be made for a special type of junior and leaving certificate programme for these children, with a minimum of five subjects and an emphasis on practical learning. They could choose subjects they enjoy and which tie in with their interests and strengths and make them feel purposeful and meaningful. This is the way to keep them off the streets and make crime less attractive.

The Government must consider putting in place these types of alternatives for youngsters who are at risk. This is consistent with the views recently expressed by the head of the Garda inspectorate and former head of the Boston police force, Ms Kathleen O'Toole, that we must identify at-risk young people and target resources accordingly. We must invest in after-school clubs and alternatives that build on their strength. We must make these children feel useful. I know children like these in Galway city. I know, as do many other educators, how to devise a programme to assist them, in conjunction with community gardaí and the juvenile justice system. Some of these individuals can be saved.

The glamorisation of crime on television through detective shows and otherwise, and in computer games, is also an issue. Perhaps it is time to issue warnings before and after such television shows, in the same vein as the warnings on cigarette packets, to indicate that they are bad for one's health. We must examine the effect of that type of glamorisation on young people.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, to the House for this important debate on gun crime. The Minister's outline of the current position and what needs to be done was reasonable, measured and calm, as acknowledged by Senator Quinn. I welcome his indication of the Government's intention to legislate for control of handguns. We all must take account of Mr. Justice Peter Charleton's statement that the proliferation of handguns is something about which any reasonable person must have concerns.

If we allow a gun culture to develop in the State——

That has already happened.

——in respect of both legally licensed guns and illegally held weapons in the hands of criminals, it will inevitably lead to a situation where the gardaí will be obliged to be armed, which would not be welcomed by most people and would cause much apprehension. We have been fortunate to avoid some of the spectacular and hideous crimes in other jurisdictions, particularly in the United States. Elsewhere, we all recall the incidents in Dunblane and Finland. There have been many high profile cases of gun crimes in schools in which many young people have been killed and seriously injured. There are many strong arguments for why we should avoid going down the road of encouraging people to become acquainted, particularly at an early age, with guns and other weapons.

I welcome the Minister's proposal to include in the legislation provisions for the control of the proliferation of knives. Many crimes, including many murders, are committed using knives as weapons. Some young people carry knives as status symbols. The problem with young people, and we were all young at one time, is that they get into an altercation of some kind, if they are carrying a weapon it tends to be used and what would have been a minor incident becomes a very serious one.

I note the provision in the legislation for a mandatory minimum sentence of five years for such offences. I welcome that even though, as was pointed out by Senator McDonald, the minimum sentence that applies to the possession of drugs is not always enforced. Also, mandatory life imprisonment for murder invariably is much less than a life sentence and we must examine that. In that regard, and I have mentioned this issue many times in the House——

As the time has been ordered, I ask the Senator to conclude as soon as possible. The Minister must reply and the debate must conclude at 1.45 p.m. I am allowing the Senator an extra two minutes.

I believe I have only four minutes.

Yes. The Senator would have had seven minutes but time did not allow me give him seven minutes.

I want to raise two issues. First, a judicial council is overdue and I hope the Judiciary is not an impediment to the establishment of such a council. I would like a debate on that at some stage in the House. It happens in other jurisdictions and the Executive would not have any input other than a peer review of the conduct of the Judiciary. That is an important issue.

Second, in her interesting contribution Senator McDonald referred to parental responsibility in this area, which is essential. I agree fully with that. Children need the influence and controls of a mother and father. I would be opposed to any diminution of the unique status of marriage in our Constitution. It should not be downgraded in any way or any other relationship put parallel to it. That is the reason I oppose the model of civil partnership from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I hope it will be modified to reflect the important role marriage plays, particularly in terms of ensuring that those of the next generation are good citizens because of the good influence of both their fathers and mothers.

Gabhaim buíochas don Chathaoirleach as seans a thabhairt dom críoch a chur leis an díospóireacht. Tá brón orm nach bhfuil morán ama agam, ach déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall. Ar son an Aire Dlí agus Cirt, gabhaim buíochas do ghach éinne a labhair ar an ábhar seo.

Gun crime is a matter that has been addressed seriously by all sides of the House. Organised crime and drug related crime are inextricably linked, as has been pointed out. The Minister has reiterated that he attaches the highest priority to tackling these types of crime and bringing to justice those involved in such activities. One of the main priorities he has set for the Garda Síochána for next year is to target gun, organised and drug related crime through a range of measures. Chief among these measures is the use of the Garda specialist units and targeted operations such as Operation Anvil.

This is a time when the public finances are under pressure. Nevertheless, the Minister will continue to give top priority to front-line policing. Funding for Operation Anvil will increase in 2009 from €20 million to €21 million to enable it continue with targeted disruption of serious and organised criminal activity. Other key operations will be maintained throughout 2009, and any savings that have to be made will not be allowed to diminish front-line policing.

In regard to bail, the Bail Act tightened up the bail regime generally. The Criminal Justice Act 2007 introduced new provisions designed to tighten up the granting of bail. For example, a person could be required to provide a statement of his or her means, previous criminal record and details of any offences committed while previously on bail. The law takes a serious view of offences committed while on bail. It is mandatory that a sentence for such an offence is consecutive on the sentence for the first offence. Committing an offence while on bail is to be regarded as an aggravating factor. Failure to answer to bail is to be regarded as an offence committed while on bail.

The granting of bail is a matter for the courts. The Director of Public Prosecutions, who is independent in the performance of his functions, represents the State for the purpose of dealing with such applications. The Minister is keeping under review what is actually happening and whether anything more needs to be done. He will examine in particular whether the changes in the 2007 Act, which are not long in place, are bringing about an improvement in the position.

Regarding what Senator O'Donovan said about the surveillance Bill, it is envisaged that the powers of the Bill can be exercised by senior members of the Defence Forces as well as the Garda Síochána. Regarding community gardaí, in which we are all interested in terms of our own constituencies, they provide an extremely important point of contact between the Garda Síochána and local communities. At the end of October, the total personnel strength of the force was 14,247. Of these, 695, or almost 5%, were community gardaí. This represents an increase of 59% since the end of 2005. It must be stressed that community policing involves more than just a single unit within the Garda Síochána. As a former teacher I relate to what Senator Healy Eames said in terms of targeting resources at children at risk. I mentioned that recently on "Questions & Answers" when I spoke about the subject of gun crime.

In this discussion we must bear in mind the rehabilitation of prisoners for long-term justice. The prison and probation services provide a range of rehabilitative programmes with the aim of encouraging positive personal development in prisoners and preparing them for re-integration and resettlement on release from custody. More than 250 prison service posts and in excess of 90 workshops operate in our prisons, actively catering for in excess of 800 prisoners each day. Educational services are now available at all institutions and are provided in partnership with a range of educational agencies.

The Irish Prison Service is developing and rolling out a fully co-ordinated integrated sentence management system across all prisons and places of detention. This system is being piloted in two prisons currently and the lessons learned from the evaluation of the pilot will inform the continued roll-out to all other institutions.

This has been an important debate and I know Members expect that action will follow from it. I assure them that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has taken careful note of all suggestions with a view to improving efficiency in our justice system.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10 a.m. tomorrow.

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