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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Dec 2008

Vol. 193 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today is No. 1, motion re Friday sitting, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Appropriation Bill 2008 — All Stages; No. 3, earlier signature motion, to be taken without debate and which will consist of one question put by the Cathaoirleach; and No. 4, statements on gun crime, which shall be taken at the conclusion of Nos. 2 and 3 and conclude not later than 1.45 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed seven minutes, on which Senators may share time by agreement of the House, and the Minister to be called five minutes from the end of the debate for concluding comments.

Yesterday a number of Deputies and Senators attended a cross-party meeting with Pamela Izevbekhai which included a briefing on her current legal situation. This is the woman whose eldest daughter died as a result of genital mutilation. She has two other children and is asking to remain in this country. I make a plea to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to give Ms Izevbekhai peace of mind during the Christmas period. There is legal uncertainty about what will happen to her during the next few weeks if the European Court of Human Rights makes a decision that is not in her favour. I ask the Minister to do this on humanitarian grounds. I know he is worried about setting a precedent, but to lose one's eldest daughter to such a procedure surely entitles one to humanitarian treatment. In view of the other decisions he has made on human rights issues in this country, it is about time he made a decision about this woman on humanitarian grounds. I know from yesterday's meeting that there is cross-party support for this.

The question of democratic accountability is an issue raised by a number of Senators this week. It refers to the Government presenting its plans to the Houses of the Oireachtas. We have heard cries for patriotism in recent weeks and months because of the dire economic situation. However, today, on the last sitting day of the Dáil and the second last day before this House rises for the Christmas recess until 27 January, for what is too lengthy a period, the Taoiseach will be announcing a plan for economic renewal in Dublin Castle this afternoon without giving these Houses any details and with no opportunity for debate here. If this plan is to succeed, it must be presented to all parties. There must be critical analysis, not glitzy public relations events. There must be detailed and critical analysis and discussion with all the parties in the Dáil and the Seanad.

The Taoiseach says one thing and then does something else. He goes off and announces it outside these Houses. It is disgraceful in the context of the national crisis which we are facing. He should be bringing those plans in here so that they can be discussed in detail. He should be looking for consensus on certain issues and at least giving people who have been elected to both Houses the opportunity to discuss the current national situation, but he is not doing that. He is choosing instead to go up to Dublin Castle, have a PR event and the Dáil and Seanad will go into recess.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that the economic plan be brought before this House and discussed today. We do not know how detailed or comprehensive is the plan which the Taoiseach is announcing today or whether it is just a general framework.

I could not agree more. This is the third day this week that I have raised this issue. I raised it in the context of full engagement with the State and including political traction. If the Government is putting together a strategy to claw our way out of a recession, it is not enough to include the people and the social partners because there must also be positive political traction to drive it.

I support the engagement of the social partners. I understand this week's meeting was very positive but that is not enough. The idea that elected public representatives in the Dáil and Seanad are not engaged in this process, are not invited into this process, are neither consulted nor asked for their views is beyond imagination. I do not know what the Government is thinking. I welcome the Government’s document, Building Ireland’s Smart Economy: A Framework for Sustainable Economic Renewal. Those of us on this side of the House have been asking for such action. Even if I do not agree with the document when I read it, I still welcome it because it gives us direction and leadership. However, this will be launched today on the 6 p.m. news. The leaders of the other parties, if they are legitimately opposed in their response to it, have a duty to point out the flaws because that is their job, whereas if they had been invited in and had some influence on its development, we would have a different proposal. I do not see the sense in it. I cannot see where we are going and I do not see the plan. It bothers me because if we get the first step wrong, it is difficult to see where we go then.

I appeal to the Leader to bring this plan into the House this afternoon as soon as it is announced. I suggest we are given 20 minutes to read the document and then we will offer our views on what it contains and what should be in it.

That would not be difficult to organise. I do not care if a Minister is not present. If the Government does not wish that a Minister attends, let us have the document and we will offer our views on it. That would not be a difficult procedure for the Leader to organise. I do not even wish there to be a vote on the issue. The people of Ireland are entitled to hear where their political representatives stand on such an important document.

I ask the Leader to consider my request.

On another related matter, both Senator O'Donovan and I have raised in the House on a number of occasions the problems of the Irish fishing industry. I have bemoaned the fact that the industry along the west coast has been destroyed. Incredibly it is now the case that France and Spain are seeking to reduce the current Irish fishing quota so that our quota can be transferred to theirs. It is difficult to believe in this day and age that they could seriously put forward the idea that the very low quota available to Irish fishermen would now be reduced further. They are doing this on the basis that the Irish fleet has been reduced and that therefore the quota may not be needed. However, the reason given for the reduction in the fleet was that the remaining boats would at least have a better share.

I ask the Leader, through the Cathaoirleach, to send a message that this House recognises the difficulties encountered by the fishing industry and to exhort the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food not to give one inch on this issue and that he should say this before he even gets on the plane to Brussels.

We are all looking forward with anticipation and expectation to today's announcement by the Taoiseach about his plans for economic recovery. It is vital that his plans succeeds because many people depend on its success. It will be the last political and economic act of what has been a tumultuous year. In the future when historians look back, they will regard 2008 as being one of the formative years of the Irish nation. It is the year when we went from boom to bust. In early summer the Lisbon treaty referendum was lost and in September the banking crisis worsened and the economy took a nose-dive. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people are now out of work. It was against that backdrop that the Oireachtas met to discuss legislation in an all-night sitting to give guarantees to the banking system. In a spirit of co-operation, Members from all parties sat on a sub-committee to examine why the Lisbon treaty failed to be passed. Great credit must go to that sub-committee and to its chairman, Senator Paschal Donohoe.

It has been a particularly difficult year for those who have lost their jobs. They are facing a bleak Christmas and a very worrying new year. We are very grateful for the bits of good news along the way to keep us all sane.

On the political front, following a very successful conference in May, we managed to ban cluster munitions as a result of the Bill passed last week. In sport, Munster won the Heineken Cup, which cheered us all. In the arts, we saw the band, The Script, making an international breakthrough with their number one album and we saw "Once" winning an Oscar in Hollywood. These successes have helped to lift the national mood along the way——

Three in a row for Kilkenny.

There is no doubt that we face a very troubling and worrying new year but by working together I am confident we can overcome our difficulties, as we have done in the past. It is hoped that this afternoon's announcement by the Taoiseach will kick-start the economy. We are hoping to see an investment in the construction sector and particularly in education but we also want to see broadband being rolled out not just in urban areas but also in rural areas as this will help to create jobs in the coming years.

I pay tribute to the Cathaoirleach and his staff. I read in the newspapers this morning that Pat Moylan has been appointed as the chair of the Arts Council. For one horrible moment I thought we were going to lose him but, luckily, it is a different Pat Moylan.

Chairman of the Arts Council is significantly worse.

The Cathaoirleach has shown fairness, consistency and impartiality during his term and in the past year in particular. These are all the attributes of a good Cathaoirleach. I pay tribute to him and his staff and to the staff of Leinster House. I wish them all the best for Christmas.

I thank the Senator.

On the last occasion when I raised the case of Pamela Izevbekhai in the House, I received a phone call designed to intimidate me——

That would not be possible.

——and discourage me from pursuing Ms Izevbekhai's case. The caller suggested a number of grounds for refusing her and her two daughters to remain in Ireland. He also informed me that he would campaign to ensure I would not be returned to this House on the next occasion.

He could be a county councillor.

I request the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to grant amnesty and residency on humanitarian grounds to this lady and her two beautiful daughters, Naomi and Jemima. They are a lovely family. All of us should call on the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to allow this case on special grounds, coming up to Christmas time. No greater gesture could be made by the Government, particularly the Minister, than to allow these three young wonderful people leave to remain. I was told there was a black campaign against this woman and her children. The man who tried to intimidate me put questions to me which I put to her yesterday and I was satisfied with the replies. I put those difficult questions to her and her solicitor, Gabriel Toolan, yesterday at a meeting of all parties in this regard. We can be accused of being bleeding heart liberals or whatever. I do not care what they call us. I am quite satisfied of the authenticity of this case. The children in question are in real and present danger if they are returned to Nigeria, especially because they will become a cause célèbre to be used and abused. We cannot allow this, a Chathaoirligh. I am asking you and your office, and the Leader, to put that aside and appeal to the Minister for the Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I want a joint proposal by this House sent to the Minister to grant this family an amnesty and residency in this country.

I do not have a political role and I hope Senators would not bring me into it.

You are a humanitarian, a Chathaoirligh.

I congratulate the chief executive officer of Ryanair, Mr. Michael O'Leary, on winning his court case in the Court of First Instance on the alleged illegal aid granted to his airline by the Walloon regional authority for services to Charleroi Airport. This is not the first win for Michael O'Leary in Europe. In The Irish Times today, he said Ryanair would not exist without deregulation having been introduced in Europe and initiated by then Irish European Commissioner, Mr. Peter Sutherland.

Michael O'Leary also said in the article that he has been knocked about by Europe. The most welcome news in the article is that the Ryanair boss pledged to campaign vigorously for the Lisbon treaty. It is interesting that his main argument for doing so is the economic one. He said if we are to dig ourselves out of the economic mess, we need to export and compete more in Europe. He is right about that. The slogan for the second Lisbon treaty referendum campaign should be that our choice is either Lisbon or Reykjavik.

If we think of the misleading and confused campaign that took place on the first referendum, we need Michael O'Leary's straight talking to confront the, at times bizarre, arguments of the "No" campaign. While we might find Michael O'Leary can be forthright and use choice language, it is the type of language needed to cut through the illogical and emotive arguments of the "No" side. This is a very important.

There was a fair amount of illogical emotionality from the Senator's side too.

Senator Regan, without interruption, please.

I second Senator Fitzgerald's amendment to the Order of Business. We have a European Council framework on the Lisbon treaty, which the Government sought and obtained. We have a framework on the banks, resolving the banking crisis. It appears we are going to have a framework for resolving the economic crisis. When will we have, however, real decisions which change matters on the ground? I wait to see what will be the real content of this programme the Government is announcing today. Whether it is the banks, the Lisbon treaty or the economy, the Government is intent on frustrating debate in this and the Lower House. It is disrespectful to Members of this House that there has been no debate on the proposed economic recovery plan. It is inappropriate to bypass the Oireachtas on this important issue. When we talk of patriotism and a bipartisan approach, it is clear the Taoiseach has no intention of fostering such an approach to resolving the problems that exist in the country.

Yet again there has been another murder in Dublin in the space of a few days — in East Wall, Howth and last evening in Ranelagh. I offer my sympathies and condolences to the family involved. It raises questions about supports for vulnerable people, especially the homeless. Will the Leader refer the matter to the appropriate committee for further discussion? Those involved in the delivery of services in this area should be asked to attend to work out an appropriate scheme to ensure adequate supports and services are in place.

The Health Service Executive is duty bound under legislation to put forward a service plan each year. It has published next year's service plan in recent days. In light of the impact of further budget restrictions, will a new service plan be introduced? Will the Leader ensure that if such a new plan is introduced, there would be no impact on service provision and that it would be in the additional layers of administration and management that were put in place at a time when we were in a position to have such monitoring and co-ordination?

I welcome the measured and fair contribution of Senator Hannigan on the plan for economic recovery compared with those of other Members.

That is very unfair.

I welcome the commencement of giving an impetus to economic renewal to help us get through the current difficult and challenging circumstances and return this country to more prosperous times. I congratulate all involved in getting on with the national effort and having the spirit required. I listened to the criticisms of the Taoiseach, bearing in mind the work he has already done and the launch of the economic recovery plan today. I am a believer that a Government has to lead and show leadership.

A Senator

That is what we have been asking for all morning.

The Government has not been doing so for the past 11 years.

I congratulate the Government in beginning an economic programme and asking everyone to join in the national spirt and effort required at this time.

It is just a plan of action.

My attention was drawn to a court case last week and I was horrified by the evidence given at it. The case involved a group of young men with purposely souped-up motor cars, some ten of them, racing on the M50 at speeds of up to 134 km/h. One of the drivers had an unwilling passenger, to the extent that her car had broken down and she accepted a lift from him, not knowing what would ensue. She, a 20 year old girl, was killed in the race.

In the court case, the judge referred to souped-up cars as an lethal concoction. I was shocked by the case because the young men involved had removed steering wheels from their cars to replace them with sporty-type ones which meant the airbags did not work. The revulsion I have is that the young man involved in the accident was given a suspended sentence. It is a reminder to us that some road traffic accidents occur from activities that someone considers to be fun. It sends out a message to others who are thinking of doing the same that the State and the Oireachtas do not recognise this as serious if only a suspended sentence is handed down. I am not asking for anything other than a reminder that these sort of activities must stop. We must send out that message.

According to the Order Paper, Second Stage of the Human Body Organs and Human Tissue Bill 2008 is to be resumed. I presume there is some parliamentary time left for it. In the Coroners Court last week, a case referred to the parents of a young man of 22 years who had died and who had donated his body organ, as a result of which four lives were saved. It is a reminder of the importance of donor cards and the proposed changes to the law in the Human Body Organs and Human Tissue Bill 2008. The Minister for Health and Children did not accept the Bill because she wanted more debate on it. We must urge the Minister to bring the Bill back in the new year or introduce her own Bill. This would remind everyone that we can save lives if we carry a donor card and find a better solution to encourage people to donate their body organs after death.

In the past few weeks RTE showed an excellent graphic, historically correct television programme regarding the plight of the Irish who had to flee Ireland because of the Famine and went to America. If they had remained in Ireland there is no doubt they would have endured unbearable suffering and death. When they arrived in America they were met with much hostility, bureaucracy and indifference. A few people stood out at that time, the local bishop and a few officials who died of the same fever that the Irish brought to the country. In a nation with such a history that saw how the Irish were eventually accepted in America and the contribution they made to the development of America and its society, I find it difficult that we cannot see a mirror story in the case of Pamela and her two daughters.

It is vital, not just for the good of the family and its safety but for the morale of the Irish people, that we do what is right in this case. If we do not do so, we will be demoralised as a people for deporting this family given the background and the facts we now have. I cannot think of a greater expression of the spirit of Christmas than to receive this family with open arms into our home of Ireland, to look after them and help them in any way possible. If we do otherwise, we will have lost an opportunity to show a generosity and a maturity that we have in abundance. To fail to use that will affect us for a long time.

We are undergoing many crises, including the economic crisis, the housing crisis, the employment crisis and the food crisis. We also have another crisis, the impact of which the Government is not fully aware, namely, the waste management crisis. We have made great progress in respect of recycling initiatives and the introduction of facilities to deal with our waste, but due to the crisis in this area, we hear that Repak, the Irish Waste Management Association and local authorities are screaming for help with the stockpiling of waste. There is no clear direction from the Government or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

I am not sure if the Leader is listening to me but I would appreciate if he would because this is a very serious issue. It is important that we listen in this House. The House is in its second last day but I call for a debate on this matter. In November and December we create over 25% of our national waste. The amount of packaging that comes into this country for the Christmas period is unbelievable. We are making no attempt, despite the elephant in the room that is the stockpiling of waste, to reduce such waste. In the UK, a project called the Courtauld commitment involves all major retailers signing up to reduce packaging waste by 10% by 2010. There is no such initiative here, which is a disgrace. We must wake up and take account of that.

I support Senator Fitzgerald in her statement that Government is ignoring Parliament by the Taoiseach's announcement of his economic strategy in Dublin Castle. To me, that smacks of spin and public relations. The Taoiseach is accountable to this Parliament and to this House. I would like to think I am not wasting my time coming to Dublin to hear announcements made in other private venues.

Issues of national importance should be discussed in this House and in the Lower House, where publicly elected representatives who are accountable to the citizens of this country can query and analyse these announcements. This is the last day of the term of the Dáil and the plan will not be analysed in a parliamentary way, which is a disgrace. We hear the Taoiseach calling for national effort and co-operation, yet he goes off on these solo runs. The position is the same with the Lisbon treaty. Is it any wonder the country is in the state it is in?

Second Stage speech.

The Taoiseach is not consulting his colleagues in government and that is quite clear in respect of the Lisbon treaty and this matter. Has he consulted Government Senators with regard to the economic strategy? I doubt it very much.

This is a very serious day for the fishing industry. I echo the calls of Senator O'Toole that we send a message of solidarity to the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, to whom I spoke this morning, who has been in Brussels for a couple of days, and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, who travels there today. The fishing industry got a boost a few years ago with the white fish renewal scheme. It has much better and safer boats than it had a decade ago, yet when it needs the money to pay for those boats, there is a threat to the Hague preferences, which will ensure that people cannot fish — if they cannot fish, they cannot get the money to pay for their boats. The whole national effort to protect the fishing industry, as referred to in the Cawley report and the decommissioning programme, will be completely wasted.

It is clear that France, Spain and Portugal have their agendas in respect of their needs. We referred to Lisbon earlier, and it is grand to say that the Minister must hold his ground, but when these matters come to votes, there must be solidarity with other member states that will support us in what we need. I am fearful that support is not as strong as it has been in other years. I do not know how we can influence other countries at the table because very serious decisions must be made today. We must hold out to retain the Hague preferences. We also need the voting strength to make sure that happens.

I ask that we send a message of solidarity to the Minister, Deputy Smith, and the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, at a historic moment. This argument always is made at this time of the year because these are annual quotas that are fought for every year. This is a particularly difficult year and I stand in solidarity with the fishing federations because Greencastle — declaring my interest — is at the core of the difficulties today.

Given that the euro is approaching parity with sterling — at 93p — will the Leader examine a number of matters in that regard? I proposed previously that we explore an all-Ireland VAT rate for alcohol. I was on a radio programme with Jeffrey Donaldson and he thought it was a good idea. This drive to the North, which results in people buying other things when they go to buy alcohol, is also fuelling alcohol abuse.

I bring to the attention of the Leader the issue of pricing. If one takes the train from Belfast to Dublin, or vice versa, as we did on the occasion of a European project, it costs £36 for a return ticket, but if one pays in euro, it costs €52, with an exchange rate of 67p. That is appalling and I am not sure to whose attention it should be drawn, perhaps the consumer affairs officials. For cross-Border projects to charge €52 for the same journey that costs £36 across the Border is appalling. This exploitation is giving us a bad name.

I echo calls from Senators on both sides of the House for a cross-party motion on Pamela Izevbekhai. I attended the meeting in the audio visual room yesterday when she spoke so powerfully and eloquently about her dreadful experiences in Nigeria and her fears for the safety of her daughters, Naomi and Jemima, who are here in Ireland with her. There is enormous compassion and sympathy for her on both sides of the House. As a man of compassion, the Leader, I am sure, will not stand in the way of a cross-party motion. I was very proud to be involved in the drafting of the cross-party motion on Ingrid Betancourt. We could draft a more simple motion in this case, along the lines that the House calls on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to grant humanitarian leave to remain with Pamela and her daughters. Perhaps something straightforward would get support. All of us would be delighted to support it and put any influence we can on the Minister to ensure she remains. There is a real fear that if the European court rules against her between now and 20 January, when her case is next before the High Court, she may be deported immediately. I know we are in the second last day of sitting but there is a real urgency to agree this motion.

I welcome the debate on gun crime. Yesterday, it was reported that the head of the Garda Inspectorate, Kathleen O'Toole, had made a measured and sensible suggestion in terms of tackling gun crime on which we all might reflect. She stated that as head of the Boston police she instituted a system whereby police officers told her about individuals and families most at risk of becoming involved in gun and gang crime. Resources and diversionary tactics were then targeted at those families and young people. This a model for us as we see worrying developments, particularly the recent shooting by a 16 year old boy on the East Wall. Where we see gun crime perpetrated by people so young we must target resources and diversionary tactics to prevent young people falling into these situations.

I repeat a call I made on many occasions for a renewed debate on the Climate Protection Bill in the new year. This was first debated in October 2007 and was adjourned. Time remains on Second Stage and I would welcome a continuation of this debate in the context of the Poznan talks and the developments which have occurred since the Bill was first introduced. I will put pressure on the Leader in the new year to provide more time for this Bill.

The Electoral (Amendment) Bill will come before the House after Christmas. This Bill is based on a report by the Boundary Commission which was given certain terms of reference which were not adhered to in the preparation of the report on which this legislation is based. Is it open to the House to obtain legal opinion on the validity of the Bill? My information is that the Bill is flawed because the commission which prepared the report did not remain within its terms of reference and broke them on numerous occasions. The Bill divides counties, areas, regions and even places parts of counties in other provinces, which was outside the terms of reference of the commission. I understand that once it is challenged in the courts after it has passed through both Houses it will be overturned.

I support Senators O'Toole and Keaveney with regard to the extremely serious threat to our fishing industry. It is disgraceful that giants such as France, Spain and Portugal can raid our meagre quota at a time when our industry is so vulnerable. This is a serious matter and we should stand firm on it.

With regard to the economic plan, we hope it is a plan for economic recovery and we wish it well. However, it is peculiar that as the Houses are about to break up for the Christmas recess, it is being launched elsewhere today. It is supposed to be a framework for economic recovery and perhaps it is. We would welcome a debate on it which the Leader could fit in either this evening, as was suggested, or tomorrow. We are in the most rapidly deteriorating situation that we have experienced in our lifetimes. Of course we must debate it. It is what everybody will be talking about. This House, as part of the Parliament, should be involved. We are sitting a day longer and we can deal with it. I appeal to the Leader's good sense of proportion to place this on our agenda.

I request the Minister for Finance to come to the House at the earliest opportunity in the new year to discuss the sustainable economic renewal. This is to be broadly and warmly welcomed. I agree with Senator Keaveney that people are buying Irish but in many cases they are going North of the Border to do so.

With so many people making such significant purchases North of the Border — I do not mean people coming back from holidays with presents, I mean sustained major purchases — there must be a case for pushing forward with the all-Ireland economy whereby VAT rates and duties would be in sync North and South of the Border, particularly because we are an island nation. This would suit both sides because it seems to be a game of ping-pong. For a few years people go North of the Border to shop and then go South of the Border for another few years. It is not sustainable at either side. We would benefit greatly from having this debate. One must wonder how the people who go North to shop can be shouting for extra services if they spend their money and pay VAT in another jurisdiction. This is worth considering.

In the same debate we can raise with the Minister for Finance the lack of confidence in the financial markets. The further blow from the United States where Mr. Madoff — if one will excuse the pun — made off with $50 billion. The market was barely recovering from the previous scandals. Even though interest rates are set low by the central banks, the interbank rate is still high and therefore people still pay high rates because of the lack of confidence between the banks. We live in a global financial market. When will regulation on a global scale be introduced? As money moves swiftly between borders we need regulation at global level.

Like other speakers, I wish to comment on the fact that yet again we are at a defining moment for Irish fisheries. It is important that we send out a strong message on behalf of Irish fishermen that there will be no capitulation. It is important that we tell Spain, France and Portugal to stop plundering and to go away. It is incumbent upon the Government to provide leadership. We need to send a strong message to Europe that we will not allow further raiding of our fisheries.

Today, another fiasco will take place in Dublin Castle. We are the Second Chamber of this Parliament. Eight weeks after the budget and five months after the Minister for Finance discovered there was an economic crisis, the Taoiseach and his Government will go to Dublin Castle. Tomorrow, the Leader will ask us to recess until 27 January. I appeal to the Leader not to do so but to allow us to come back early to discuss the Lisbon treaty and the economic crisis, issues we have not discussed in this House.

I make the point I made yesterday that two months after the budget, neither the Minister for Education and Science nor the Tánaiste has come to this House to discuss the education cuts and rising unemployment. The Leader has not given a satisfactory answer as to why they have not done so. This morning, I challenge the Leader, and ask him man to man, to give me an explanation as to why they will not come to the House. We deserve an answer. More importantly, the children and the people of Ireland deserve an answer.

I welcome the fact that the Government is taking initiative. It has got at least one element right, and that is research and development. It should be kept here. I have spoken in this House on several occasions over the years about situations where brilliant, innovative and imaginative work done by Irish people was repatriated to the United States along with the profits of that work. We must make sure we get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to our own creativity.

It is not right that this House should be sidelined, which is an increasing feature of the political system. It is a pity. We should not be pussyfooting around the issue of the wage agreement. The reality is that there must be an immediate wage freeze. None of us should get an extra cent while people all around us are losing their jobs. There must be solidarity in this.

In regard to the fishing industry, I am delighted that Members on both sides of the House have sought to give support to our Ministers in Brussels. We should not always touch the forelock to Europe. If one quantifies what other members have received from us in terms of our fish stocks, it more than matches the sum of every single cent we have received from Brussels in grants.

Senators

Hear, hear.

If we had stayed out of it and kept our fish stocks, we would be in a better position than we are now. We should remind our European colleagues of that. France, Portugal and Spain have consistently devastated their own stocks before setting off to pillage those of others. Many years ago, I offered support to the Canadians in their dispute with European fishermen who had gone as far as the cod banks off Newfoundland and were destroying the fish stocks there. Our Ministers are strongly deserving of our support in this matter.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Will the Leader respond to the series of questions I asked of him in recent days? The first relates to the situation of Ms Pamela Izevbekhai. I honour Senators Leyden and Ó Murchú for their strong support on this issue. I would be pleased to withdraw my motion in favour of an all-party proposal, which would be preferable. Like Senator Leyden, I have been the subject of anonymous contacts, although it was not a telephone call but an anonymous letter. Unfortunately, I threw it in the bin, as I do with all such correspondence, when I should have handed it to the Garda. The letter was accompanied by a newspaper article in reference to which I asked the Leader to raise with the Minister the apparent leaks from sources within the immigration service and whether there should be an inquiry in this regard.

I also asked him about certain matters surrounding the resignation of the chairman of the Equality Tribunal. The statement by the chairwoman of the Equality Authority was issued almost simultaneously with the announcement of that resignation, which had the effect of undermining it. Was that statement mandated as a result of a board meeting or was it a type of maverick action? The representative of the National Women's Council of Ireland has done the decent thing by resigning. The remaining members of the board should do the same. It is astonishing that they should so openly display the fact that they do not have the guts of a gooseberry compared with this wonderful woman who resigned in protest and in order to cease collaborating in the destruction of equality rights.

At its height, the cost of a barrel of oil was some $147, after holding at approximately $80 for a considerable period. The current price is some $45 a barrel. When the price reached its height, the ESB and Bord Gáis sought an increase in their prices in the region of 17% to 19%. That request was granted. However, now that the price of oil has fallen dramatically, there is no sign of a corresponding price decrease from the ESB and Bord Gáis. This is of particular concern at Christmas when people, particularly elderly people, may struggle to meet their fuel costs.

The excuse given by the regulator for this was that the ESB and Bord Gáis had a six-month supply of oil in storage which they had purchased at the higher price. If that was so, why did they not have a six-month supply purchased at a lower price when the prices rose? There is no logic to that excuse. In the context of Government plans for economic recovery, the ESB and Bord Gáis should be put under serious pressure by the Government, all parties and the Seanad as an institution to reduce prices in keeping with the reduction in the price of oil. If it was logical to increase prices in the past, it must be equally logical to decrease them now. People's livelihoods and homes are at stake. I appeal to the Leader to take on board this serious matter. I expect that he will because he has a sense of enterprise and understands what I am talking about. It is bizarre to allow the current situation to continue.

Is mian liom cur leis an méid atá ráite ag na Seanadóirí Ó Murchú agus Leyden maidir le cás Pamela Izevbekhai. I am not sure whether a motion is required. Senator Ó Murchú, in his typical fashion, put it more eloquently than anybody else when he said that what is needed is a genuine manifestation of the spirit of Christmas. The Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill will come before the House in due course next year. In addition to that, however, we must have a serious discussion of our entire approach to immigration policy. A newspaper report today includes an encouraging picture of a group who swore loyalty to the State yesterday, in the presence of Government representatives. We must examine whether we have managed to put in place a structure that respects those who wish to become Irish citizens, whether through the asylum process or otherwise. There is a heartlessness to current policy. In a time of economic difficulty, I am concerned we will become even more heartless. There must be a debate on this issue.

I support the point made by Senator Ellis. Is léir go bhfuil leatrom á dhéanamh ar Chontae Liatroma. Tá sé in am dúinn díospóireacht ghinearálta a eagrú ar laigí ár gcóras parlaiminte. Nuair a rinne mé agallamh ar Raidió na Gaeltachta inné, cuireadh ceist orm mar gheall ar an tSeanad — go háirithe mar gheall ar an gcaoi ina toghtar Seanadóirí ó na hollscoileanna. Iarradh orm an rabhamar i ndáiríre nuair a dúramar go raibh gá le athruithe. There must be a debate in the new year on the political system and the weakness of our parliamentary system. For example, we have seen the Taoiseach making significant announcements in Dublin Castle. This lessens public confidence in our parliamentary democracy. We should tie this discussion in with the necessary debate on Seanad reform which I hope will take place soon.

I support Senator Fitzgerald and others who spoke about how irrelevant this House has become, something in which the Leader has played a part. This is the national Parliament. The economic plan which we heard about on the news should be debated in this House today. What really sickens and insults me is that despite being education spokesperson for my party, having spent more than 20 years in education——

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

——I have had no opportunity to participate in a debate with the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, on the cutbacks and other difficulties in education.

Senators

Hear, hear.

The Leader is contributing to making this House irrelevant. I may as well be sitting at home issuing press releases instead of being in this Chamber. That is how bad the situation has become.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has great leverage with the banks and, thus, an opportunity to help families who face the threat of losing their homes. Will the Leader bring to his attention the situation of the many couples who fixed their mortgages a year or more ago when they saw that interest rates were rising? It is great news that the European Central Bank has since reduced the rate, but these people are caught. I understand they would benefit by some €300 to €400 per month if they could renegotiate their agreement with the banks.

The Senator will have an opportunity to raise these issues during tomorrow's debate on the Finance (No. 2) Bill.

May I finish my point?

The Minister will be in the House tomorrow for that debate.

As taxpayers came to the rescue of the banks, the Minister should ensure the banks return the favour by renegotiating the arrangements for these people to allow them to avail of reduced interest rates.

I have called the Leader to reply.

May I make a final point?

We have gone over time. I ask Senator Healy Eames to respect the Chair. She can raise these matters tomorrow.

I respect the Chair but I have been absent through illness and would appreciate the time to raise this issue.

I have called on the Leader to reply to the Order of Business. We have gone way over time.

Once again I am cut off.

I would like to acknowledge former Senator Mulcahy in the Gallery.

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Hannigan, Regan, Callely, Ó Murchú, Coffey, Bacik, Coghlan, Hanafin, Buttimer, Norris, O'Reilly, Mullen and Healy Eames expressed various concerns regarding the economy. As I said in the House yesterday, although some Senators may not have been here, we had a special debate on the economy on 6 December. The Seanad has had its say on the framework proposals coming forward today. It is unfair and untrue for colleagues to say this morning they have not been allowed to make known their views to the Minister for Finance on the framework document being announced today. This is only the start——

We have not seen the document.

Where is the so-called plan?

We have not seen the plan. It has not been published yet.

The Leader is replying to the Order of Business.

The facts are that the House sat all day for a special debate on the issue on 6 December. I hope that puts the record straight.

That was not on the implementation plan.

Please, Senators.

On a point of order, the debate on 6 December was not on the economic stimulus package. It was about the economy generally.

That is not a procedural matter. A point of order must be on a procedural matter.

It was just statements.

It was a full day's debate on the economy, which is what the framework document is about today.

It is not, and the Leader knows it is not.

Has the Leader written it?

Can I brief the Members——

The Leader has not briefed himself yet.

——particularly the new Members of the House?

The Leader should not patronise us. We have put up with this for far too long.

There should be no interruptions. Members should respect the Chair, respect this House and allow the Leader reply to the Order of Business. I ask Members who want to interrupt the Leader giving his reply to leave the Chamber.

On a point of order, the Leader should refer to the Order of Business and not side-track the issue by making confrontational comments to the House.

A number of Members asked questions about the announcement to be made today——

——and called for statements on the economy. In fact, there is an amendment to the Order of Business——

He is inviting us to comment.

I am responding to inaccuracies made in the House. It is my duty to correct the record and state the facts. I can do no more and no less.

A Deputy

Hear, hear.

We welcome the framework document set out by the Government today and which is hoped will be a realistic and sustainable proposal for our further consideration on the deteriorating global economy being faced by all parties and the Government in particular.

I propose that colleagues will have an opportunity tomorrow, in the Second Stage debate on the Finance Bill, to make reference to the document being brought forward today. I am aware that many colleagues wish that corrective measures be taken urgently by the Government to deal with a situation that is changing on a day to day and week to week basis, as has been pointed out in respect of the sterling currency challenge. That is a further challenge to us doing business here in the Twenty-six Counties. All of that must be corrected.

As was correctly said, the budget was brought forward by the Government on 14 October and we should consider the changes that have taken place since then. They are unprecedented. A 90 year old man, who is a substantial employer in this State, told me yesterday that in his lifelong experience he has never seen anything like it. All we can do is look to the forefathers, the pioneers, and those who have created the Ireland of today. We should consider the changes that man made since he came from the province of Munster to create such enormous opportunities for hundreds if not thousands of people in our country.

We should all learn from this experience. None of us is infallible. If we all told the truth, we would admit that none of us has the answer. We are all trying to do the best we can for the opportunity the people have given us, regardless of the party one represents in this House.

The Senator's party did a bad job.

We should all be fair in this festive season. We will have an opportunity tomorrow on Second Stage of the Finance Bill to make known our views to the Minister for Finance who will be in the Chamber. I want to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who is waiting to come into the House, to take statements on gun crime.

Regarding the call made on me this morning by many colleagues regarding Pamela Izevbekhai and her family, I will pass on the Senators' views to the Minister after the Order of Business.

Senators O'Toole, Keaveney, Coghlan, Buttimer and Norris expressed strong concerns and called for the full support of the House for our Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, and the Minister, Deputy Smith, in regard to the fishing quotas. As far as we are concerned, it is "hands off" our fishing quota. We are a small nation making up only 1% of the population of the EU. In regard to the Irish fishing industry I say "hands off" what is left of our fishing quota.

I welcome the announcement that will be made by the Taoiseach in my county of Westmeath this morning of an additional 200 jobs in the town of Athlone. I acknowledge the good work carried out by the IDA in securing those 200 jobs and assisting the economy, particularly the economy in the midlands, for years to come.

Senator Callely referred to another horrific murder that has occurred in Dublin. A young woman lost her life tragically yesterday evening in Portobello. The tragedies that are occurring on a daily basis are appalling. The murders of women and the lack of respect for human life is horrific. There is no longer any fear of the law. We might have an opportunity in the future to have a debate in the House, with the Minister present, on sentencing policy. Life should mean life, 25 years if necessary.

Regardless of what side of the House Members are on, we must agree that there must be fear of the law. That does not appear to be the case for certain offences.

Senator Quinn spoke about the tragedies involving cars and outlined the case of another young woman losing her life. It is difficult to fathom the justice meted out in that case but that is a matter for the courts. It is nothing to do with those of us in this House.

I will allow a debate on the Health Service Executive, as called for by Senator Callely, in the first two weeks after we return from the recess with the Minister present.

Senator Coffey raised the issue of waste management. I have already given the Senator a commitment on that. I take the matter seriously, and I know the Senator's strong views on this area are genuine. The cost of waste management is a major challenge to Ireland in the future, particularly for local authorities.

I again contacted the Department yesterday regarding the three queries from Senator Norris. When I get word back from the Minister's offices, I will directly contact him about those matters.

Senators Keaveney and Hanafin raised the issue of the all-Ireland opportunities that should present in the future. Senator Keaveney spoke about the exchange rates, which are unacceptable. Whether one is buying North or South this Christmas time, I ask people to help everyone and try to buy Irish if at all possible.

That strong message should go out from the House this morning. Senator MacSharry spoke to me at length about this matter yesterday. We should all buy Irish, whether we are shopping North or South, and help in any way we possibly can. In doing that we will be doing a great deal for the economy.

Senator Bacik asked about the Bill she outlined. It is still on Second Stage. We will review that early in the new year.

Senators Ellis and Mullen raised the matter of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. The Bill breaches the county boundaries in Senator Ellis's case in Leitrim and in my own case in Westmeath. It is fair to say Senator Ellis and myself are honoured Members of this House because of the boundary changes that occurred in the elections to the 30th Dáil. While it is an honour and privilege to be here, the people we represent feel they are disenfranchised and that they should have an equal opportunity to be represented by an Oireachtas Member in Dáil Éireann. It is unacceptable that Senator Ellis's county of Leitrim does not have a Leitrim person representing them. While they are represented very well by Deputies from the other constituency, the people of Country Leitrim would wish to have a Leitrim person representing them. All I can say to Senator Ellis, who feels strongly about this, is that if he wishes the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to consider his proposal, it is not a matter for me but for the Senator to consider the position in that regard. I will do all I can to assist him in his plight.

Senator Buttimer and Senator Healy Eames called for a debate on education. The Minister will come to the House in the first two weeks of the next session.

Is that in February?

He has given that commitment. This week we dealt with the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill on Tuesday and we will debate the Finance Bill tomorrow. Those were the two days the Minister probably could have come to the House——

He is a fugitive.

The time was not available in the diary.

He is the fugitive Minister for Education and Science.

A Cork man was never afraid to address a House of the Oireachtas.

He is certainly on the run from us.

He is afraid he will not get a word in.

Senator O'Reilly raised the high cost of electricity and gas, which is unacceptable now that oil prices have been substantially reduced. I call on the ESB and Bord Gáis to consider an immediate reduction of 10% in their prices The ESB got a 17.5% increase in August and Bord Gáis got an increase of 20% in September. As Senator O'Reilly said, there have been huge reductions in oil prices so there is no good reason that these two great companies cannot play their part in assisting Ireland. The past ten or 13 years have been very good for them, as they have been for all companies, during the Celtic tiger economy, parts one and two. These companies have been exemplary in working for the national interest, particularly the ESB which has had a huge role in the economy over the years. I make that call on them today. I also call on the regulator to state why there cannot be a reduction of 10% in prices in the early new year, given that oil prices have gone down to the current low level.

On a point of order, I wish to give the Leader an opportunity to correct the record of the House. He said we had an opportunity to discuss the economy on 6 December. To the best of my knowledge, 6 December was a Saturday. I was not here on that day.

It is a technicality, it was 5 December. I apologise. I thank the Senator for being so observant.

I am glad the Leader has corrected the record.

The records will show when it was held. Senator Frances Fitzgerald has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the plans proposed by the Taoiseach for an economic renewal be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 28.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Twomey, Liam.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Cannon, Ciaran.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Phelan, Kieran.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Jerry Buttimer and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 18.

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Butler, Larry.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Cannon, Ciaran.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Corrigan, Maria.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • de Búrca, Déirdre.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Feeney, Geraldine.
  • Glynn, Camillus.
  • Hanafin, John.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • McDonald, Lisa.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Phelan, Kieran.
  • Ross, Shane.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Burke, Paddy.
  • Buttimer, Jerry.
  • Coffey, Paudie.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • Donohoe, Paschal.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Hannigan, Dominic.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Norris, David.
  • O’Reilly, Joe.
  • Phelan, John Paul.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Regan, Eugene.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Twomey, Liam.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Jerry Buttimer and Maurice Cummins.
Question declared carried.
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