The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re the recasting of the Eurodac regulation and the Dublin regulation, to be referred to the committee without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, motion re European criminal records information system, to be referred to the committee without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; and No. 3, Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken and to conclude following the completion of No. 2.
Order of Business.
The proposed public service pension levy is unfair and unbalanced. My party voted against it in the other House. We recognise more than anybody else the need for the €2 billion in savings in current spending in 2009 and we have offered an alternative strategy. However, the Government does not seem to listen to anybody. It will not listen to the Opposition and the social partners, and seems to think it has a monopoly of wisdom on economic affairs. When will the Minister for Finance amend what he proposes in this pension levy to exclude lower paid public servants from it? It is not a question of if but of when he will do it. He will then also have to spell out the proposals of what other economies or cuts will be necessary to make up for that. I hope that next week, when we will discuss this issue, he will amend this unfair levy, especially in the case of lower paid public servants.
On another issue, power companies currently charge consumers for the cost of carbon allowances used in power generation, even though they get these allowances free from the Government. This is not fair. Fine Gael calls again, as it has previously, for a windfall tax to be imposed on power generation, which would raise approximately €300 million. This would certainly help ease the burden in other areas and keep vital services going. Again, this is an area where Fine Gael is making a constructive proposal. It remains to be seen whether the Government will accept the proposal or consign it to the scrap heap, as it has done with all the other suggestions from this party, the Labour Party and other parties and interested bodies. We are offering alternative suggestions daily but the Government is not responding. We hope there will be a definite response next week on this unfair levy. Its unfairness is bringing lower paid workers out on the streets.
I raise the same issue. It must be addressed. We are facing strike action throughout the country after two and a half decades of being the country with the best record in Europe in terms of the lowest number of strikes per year, growing productivity in almost every year of the last 15 until 18 months ago and good industrial relations. That is all fragmenting in front of us. I cannot answer the questions I am being asked. I cannot explain to a person in the public sector on €25,000 per year why he is paying more than if he were in the private sector. He is paying more than the level he or she would pay in the private sector to receive the normal superannuated pension, which would be more or less the same as the €12,000 he would get in the private sector. I cannot explain to workers why people who are earning more than €90,000, €100,000 or €200,000 per year are not being asked to pay anything extra if they are in the private sector. I do not understand the thinking behind it.
I do not accept the idea that this is a public sector versus private sector issue. For me, it is quite simple. If we must pay, we must pay but — the last time I raised this the Leader did not address it in his response — people earning big money in safe, secure jobs in the private sector should also pay their share. This is not happening and it cannot be explained to ordinary workers. We will be faced with embarrassment everywhere, difficulties, production breakdowns, loss to industry and damage to the image of the country. If the Government intends to make some moves on this, as it appears to be indicating it will, it should sit down with the social partners to ask what can and cannot be done. It should also meet with the Opposition and discuss the matter in the Houses. It should recognise that if movement is to be made, it should be as part of a wider scheme. I ask that there be further engagement on these issues.
Over recent months in the current crisis there has been much comment on what has occurred in the banks and the wider economy. An opinion piece this morning by a former, very senior official in one of the organisations that has figured in the news in recent days offers the most eloquent analysis of what has occurred over this period, particularly in the financial institutions. I commend the article in today's The Irish Times by Mr. Donal Casey. It is a calm, measured and devastating analysis of what has happened. One of the conclusions he draws is that public trust in the banking system is “shattered beyond repair”, to use his phrase. It is a devastating conclusion. He is not somebody who is in any way detached or semi-detached from what has occurred, but has been very closely involved in it. He talks about people living in a parallel universe and so forth.
My colleagues have called for another debate on the banking system. I would welcome such a debate but it should be structured in a particular way, whereby we could examine the question of trust and the issues Mr. Casey raises in his excellent article. We could use that debate on the banks and financial institutions to open a wider debate, which the Leader might consider facilitating, on the issue of confidence and trust in the entire political system. I accept I sound like a broken record on this but I will continue to do so. One can say the banking system is broken but a compelling argument can be made that the political system is also broken. The political system is not responding to the issues people are talking about.
I am not making a partisan point; I could make many partisan points but I am not making this one in a partisan way. Every day we can see that the political system is not seen to be responding and facilitating the type of collective effort the Taoiseach and others say we must make. One of the issues that must be addressed is the profoundly unhealthy relationship that exists between the political system and certain elements of big business, particularly banks and financial institutions. Members on the other side of the House sometimes roll their eyes and think Members on this side are simply being politically correct when we say this. However, there should not be a close association between the Taoiseach or other Government Ministers and business persons. It does not mean that anybody is alleging anything untoward is taking place. It is simply not proper for Government Ministers ever to have private meetings with senior business figures. All relationships and contacts with senior business officials and lobbyists should be conducted publicly. I do not mean out on St. Stephen's Green but they should be conducted in a formal way that is recorded so the people who elect and pay their Government can see what is happening and what are those relationships. I seek a debate on those issues.
When Members on this side of the House talk about, for example, curbs on freedom of information, political donations and the other issues that irritate some people in the community and some politicians, there is a reason for doing that and calling for regulation. That puts some form of control and discipline over the sometimes very unhealthy relationship that tends to develop between Government and business. Judge McCracken spoke about this in his report ten or 11 years ago in the context of his comments on the late Mr. Haughey and the Dunnes payments. To paraphrase the judge, he said that even if a direct relationship could not be proven in respect of a particular payment, it gives rise to a reasonable suspicion in the eyes of members of the community that such things are taking place. People think there is a golden circle. All the pleading, complaining and irritation by the Taoiseach about it will not solve the problem unless real measures are taken to address it.
I call on the Leader to arrange an emergency debate today on energy and, in particular, electricity supply. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, should come to the House for the debate. I welcome in principle the Bord Gáis decision to supply electricity to the residential market. Heating and energy costs are a significant portion of a householder's budget at present. Since last night 3,000 people have already signed up with Bord Gáis. There will be a 10% reduction in price, with another 2% reduction if they are currently Bord Gáis customers. It is a tremendous offer. The company hopes to secure 25% of the ESB's supplies. That could put 25% of workers in the ESB in jeopardy. The knock-on effect will be that Bord na Móna workers will be laid off. I call on the regulator to take the handcuffs off the ESB——
Exactly.
——and let it reduce its price by 10% as well.
I have been saying it for months.
Otherwise, it will be a very unfair market. It is grossly unfair. On "Morning Ireland" this morning it got tremendous publicity. Every Member of the House will probably sign up for it by the weekend over the Internet or by telephone. That is the reality. The ESB has increased its workers' wages by 3.5% while its senior executives are getting approximately €650,000 per annum. There are other perks for ESB workers such as free electricity.
What is the Government doing about it?
The point is the regulator has been assigned responsibility for it.
It is up to the Minister to mandate him.
Senator Leyden without interruption, please.
I am calling on the regulator——
Call on the Minister.
——to take the handcuffs off the ESB to allow it reduce costs and to reduce the costs——
Has Senator Leyden a question for the Leader?
This matter requires an emergency debate. I do not see why we cannot have an emergency debate in this House. There is no point in having this debate on Tuesday or Wednesday next when approximately 100,000 suppliers will have joined up to Bord Gáis. Who will read the meters and who will maintain the power lines after a storm?
The point is well made. Senator Leyden——
The ESB.
——have you a question for the Leader?
I put that question to the Leader. The question to the Leader is to ask him, in his position of Leader of this House, to invite the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources——
Senator Leyden can make those points in the debate.
I wish to get the debate, that is the point.
I would say Senator Leyden has convinced the Leader.
Remember that Bord na Móna supplies peat to the ESB.
Senator Leyden can make those points in the debate.
If there is a debate.
You are asking the Leader. We will establish that later.
If there is not a debate, I must try to make them now.
Surely the Leader will accede to Senator Leyden's request.
Finally, I call on the ten shareholders who received €300 million to put their hands up now.
Name and shame.
Name and shame.
I have a list here of about four.
Senator Leyden without interruption.
Relax, I will not name names in this House.
Go on.
Senator Leyden knows the names.
I am asking them, for the sake of the democracy and of politics in this country, to please come forward and announce——
From what party are they?
Has Senator Leyden a question for the Leader on this?
Senator Ross will have them in the Sunday Independent.
Senator Leyden, there are other Senators offering.
I am making an appeal to those ten persons to please own up, put their hands up and admit that they got €300 million under false pretences——
And pay back the money.
——and pay back the €300 million.
Senators Donohoe and Bacik missed out yesterday and they will be taken first today.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the state of industrial relations in the country, and in particular, what I believe is happening with Dublin Bus where a union has expressed its intent to strike and stay out until many of its demands on what is happening with the company are met. If that is correct and if the union is announcing its intention for an all-out strike, this will deal a hammer blow to the city of Dublin. The morale of people who are doing their best to get in and out of our city to work is already low enough and if they wake up on a Saturday or Sunday morning to find the buses absent that day, and then absent for the days to come, it will be a gigantic problem, not just for those but also for people looking to create work within our city. We all know we are at the beginning of difficulty and to see a move like this being signalled just at the start is extremely worrying. I ask the Government to intervene in this and ensure it does not happen.
I will conclude by responding to what Senator Leyden stated. If he is looking to move an amendment to the Order of Business, I would be delighted to second it.
That is a bridge too far.
On his call for these people to name themselves, there is a serious point.
Senator Leyden did not move an amendment.
It is not the responsibility of these people to name themselves. It is the responsibility of Government——
Well said.
——to come out and state who these people are——
Hear, hear.
——as opposed to the Senator standing up and waving a sheet of paper.
The Government does not know.
Has Senator Donohoe a question for the Leader?
It is a question to the Leader. As opposed to Senator Leyden standing up and waving a piece of paper claiming he knows who these people are, why are Cabinet Ministers not asking these questions and doing their best to restore faith in the banking system?
Hear, hear.
A question to the Leader.
They should do so as opposed to looking for headlines in a stunt like that.
I wish to raise two issues. The Cathaoirleach kindly chose my matter for the Adjournment last week on Project Kelvin, a major project for the north west that was given to Derry-Letterkenny because of the gateway status and disadvantaged status of the north west and with the goal of making it a very good location for business. I raised last week the issue of the sleight of hand that took place that meant the Telehouse was moved to Coleraine. I ask the Leader to offer my congratulations to all involved who ensured there was a U-turn and the project is now returned to Derry, but to ensure the associated infrastructure and connectivity promised in the original tender will be given exclusively, as intended, to Letterkenny, Derry and Monaghan. This is an important status. The change is welcome but the problem should not have arisen in the first place. The west of the Bann has the same entitlement as the east of the Bann to development and I am glad our voices stating we will not accept this have been acknowledged. It was a shot across the bows and we intend to continue such battles.
There has been a serious spate of burglaries in my area of Inishowen. I can relate to this issue of people wanting heads on plates, but there is such a thing as due process and bringing people with evidence before the courts and laws. Similarly, in the case of burglaries, people are genuinely scared of what they face. Anecdotally, the co-op has run out of pick-axes etc., because people want to defend themselves. This is not a healthy environment.
Has Senator Keaveney a question to the Leader?
Where can one get a pick-axe?
Now that I have put the issue in context, could we have a debate here on neighbourhood watch, community alert, the Garda Reserve and the types of the processes that can be used to ensure communities are as safe as possible? While I understand the Garda has committed complete resources and top priority to resolving this issue, a debate in this House on how we can help the community to look after each other, rather than to look to the concept of vigilantism, would be important.
I echo the criticisms made by Senators Cummins and O'Toole of the public service levy. The real problem at present is the uncertainty surrounding it, the fact that Ministers stated it will be tweaked and yet we have not seen any sign of that tweaking. Previously, there was tweaking done on the medical cards scheme for the over 70s and a U-turn on that. There was a U-turn, or tweaking, which ever way one likes to put it, on the 1% levy. We need to see the public service levy being tweaked in the same way so those on low incomes will not pay this disproportionate amount from their incomes. I am all in favour of a public service pension levy for those public servants who can afford it and for those who are better paid. I accept that when the private sector is taking such pain — we see workers in Dell, Waterford Wedgwood plc, SR Technics etc. being laid off — we need to pay our share in the public service, and I think public servants recognise that. However, this levy must be imposed with fairness and competence. Unfortunately, we are not seeing either of those.
I also echo calls for a debate on the difficulties in banking and scandals in banks. We have seen exposed, not just the light-touch regulation that has been passed in relatively recent times but the heavy hand of the criminal law. Even where there are criminal law powers and quite appropriate criminal law offences in legislation, these are simply not being used. As I stated previously, we are seeing a lack of enforcement as much as a failure in the legislative framework. An interesting debate on the radio last night spoke of there being over 300 staff in the Financial Regulator, and yet we are not seeing enforcement and we are not seeing the issue of simple information that people need to restore trust and confidence in the banking system.
Like Senator Donohoe, I was impressed by Senator Leyden's vocal call for the naming of the ten individuals who bailed out Anglo Irish Bank in this way but it is yet another example of Members on the Government side speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
Hear, hear.
I would like to see Senator Leyden voting with the Opposition when we have the debate on banking.
Hear, hear.
Those of us on this side have been calling for accountability and transparency and we will put our money where our mouth is and vote on that. I would like to see Senator Leyden supporting us on that.
When hell freezes over. Do not wait too long for that.
In the coming weeks the inaugural meetings of the joint policing committees and the municipal policing committees will be held. This will afford Members of this and the other House as well as local authority members throughout the country an opportunity to meet the Garda and give their views with whatever information is pertinent to the curtailment of crime.
The golden circle.
Senator Glynn, without interruption.
It is a unique opportunity and is something that should be welcomed.
(Interruptions).
We could use old building blocks and plaster.
I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on this subject because many important contributions would be forthcoming from all sides of the House. It is a unique opportunity for Members of the Oireachtas as well as local authorities to do their bit in solving serious crime and tackling it in a manner that reflects the views of the people they represent.
I join Senator Leyden in calling for action on the whole issue of electricity prices and the ESB. Prices can be reduced. Last year the ESB made hundreds of millions of euro in profits. People desperately need cuts in their monthly bills and they would certainly welcome it. The fact that electronic billing has been introduced will obviously cut ESB costs so it can afford to reduce prices. In the UK many electricity companies are cutting their costs to consumers by as much as 10% because of the advent of electronic billing. There is scope for the ESB, too, to make changes and I would encourage the regulator to impress on the company the need to do so.
I agree with other Senators on the whole issue involving the naming and shaming of the golden circle. I listened to the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, on today's "Morning Ireland" and he said that to do so might be prejudicial to any future trials. He also said he did not believe it was right to do so just to satisfy curiosity. However, this is not about satisfying anybody's curiosity, it is about trying to restore some confidence, not just in the banking system, but in the political system and our international reputation.
Hear, hear.
It must be done now.
As other speakers have indicated, the view is widespread among the public that there is a strong likelihood that Fianna Fáil is closely associated with the inner circle, the inner ten, in Anglo Irish Bank. This situation is leading to great instability——
Fine Gael has a few friends there too.
——both politically and economically. The reason people are suspicious includes the following: the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, did not show real muscle in dealing with the banks. He did not clear out the boards in line with good international practice; he did not adequately protect home owners; and he did not use his leverage to unburden hard-pressed couples with fixed rate mortgages when he had total bargaining power with the banks. This smells rotten and it is time for the Government to come clean, just as has been said.
I want to ask the Leader where is the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, in all of this. The chances are that he has a great deal of information he could share with us. I call on him today to also come clean and give information for the sake of the country's political and economic stability. It is really a case of Rome burning while Nero fiddles, and the farmer is now burnt.
Poor management by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in relation to the farm waste management scheme leaves some farmers in dire straits. Some 1,400 farmers in Galway have not been paid for the farm waste management scheme and I am now getting calls to the effect that some are having difficulty paying for their groceries.
Is the Senator looking for a debate?
I am coming to a question. Their working capital to run their farms and provide for their families is gone. They entered into bridging and term loan arrangements, with genuine expectations of being paid. It is absolute rubbish to say that the Minister did not know. Applications were approved and signed off by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Has the Senator a question?
Will the Leader please invite the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, to address the Seanad? These farmers must be paid. We need an urgent debate on this. It is not fair to scapegoat farmers, who do not leave the country but continue to work, even when they are unemployed. Now they find themselves in difficulty in paying for basics.
These points may be made in the debate.
I ask the Leader to please bring the Minister into the Seanad as a matter of urgency to address the issue of the farm waste management scheme.
I join others in welcoming an early debate next week on the pension levy. It remains my hope and that of colleagues in this House that a mechanism can be found whereby we can ensure those people in the lower paid brackets are looked after in a better way than is currently proposed. The measures that have had to be introduced are enormously traumatic for a generation and a half, effectively, which has known nothing other than increments and benchmarking, with positive steps and measures. However, the situation has changed drastically and measures have had to be introduced that were unimaginable some months ago, never mind years ago.
None the less, while we cannot direct the wind, we can adjust the sails. I hope that, in the context of the debates in both Houses on the levy legislation, a mechanism can be found that is equitable and fair to all concerned, particularly those who are less well-off. We must spare a thought for the unemployed and the many people in the private sector who face the prospect of unemployment and the lack of security because, after all, they comprise 80% of the workforce, which is much higher than the number of those of us in the public sector who are somewhat luckier.
I share Senator O'Toole's concern for the level of industrial action we are about to see. It is highly regrettable and I believe——
Those are points that can be made in the debate.
I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and I look forward to the same level of indulgence being afforded to me as to other Members of the House.
The Senator is getting the same.
(Interruptions).
I repudiate any suggestion as completely unfounded that the chances are, to quote another Senator, the situation of Anglo Irish Bank and the so-called golden circle is associated with Fianna Fáil.
Hear, hear.
That is absolutely disgraceful.
That is what everyone in the street is saying.
(Interruptions).
Senator MacSharry, without interruption. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?
How does Senator MacSharry know that?
How does the Senator know it is any different?
Senator MacSharry, without interruption.
Would Senator MacSharry mind sharing this urgent information with the House?
(Interruptions).
I would like an urgent debate on the standards of probity being adhered to within this House when people are making suggestions, statements or accusations based on anecdotal rubbish from the streets and gutters.
They are the ordinary people of Ireland.
Has Senator MacSharry a question for the Leader?
I am continuing with my question. My question for the Leader is at what time may we have an early debate about this so that we might ensure that we can have justice in a way that respects due process? As Senator Keaveney said recently and I said the other day, medieval times are over. We cannot set up the guillotine on Leinster Lawn or within St. Stephen's Green and behead people based on anecdotal rumour.
Those points can be made in the debate.
I look forward more than anybody else to see the rigours of the law imposed on those who are responsible for the situation we find ourselves in, but I will not be party to any debate that is rubbish and nonsense, based on no fact and trying to say that Fianna Fáil is directly associated with this type of thing. It is disgraceful.
Those points may be made in the debate.
I have the highest respect for my colleague, Senator MacSharry, but the present Government has been in power for so long that, accident or not, it has presided over a situation where the four pillars of society have come into disrepute, the church, the law, the banks and politics. Not a single one of them can stand with its head high in this State. That is partly because the Government has been in power for too long and it has become too lax. We have heard about tweaking the pensions Bill, but one thing is certain, the people will tweak the Government at the first opportunity.
As regards the pensions Bill, I would support the Government in taking hard decisions, and so would the people of Ireland, but they will not do it when there is an unsteady hand on the tiller and when there is complete uncertainty and total amateurishness in evidence. Unfortunately — I hate to have to say it — this is what has happened. The pensions reserve Bill has been instanced.
I was in this House before Christmas, at the time of the budget, when the Minister for Finance gave an undertaking that the weakest, the poor, the children, the needy etc. would be preserved. Now early in the new year we have the pensions reserve legislation, under section 17 of which early child care supplement is to be cut by 10% and the entitlement of children is to be terminated six months early. This is an extraordinary abandonment of the weakest people in society.
Does the Senator support the calls for a debate?
I support them strongly for the reasons I have set out. An attempt was made to conceal this measure by sticking it into the final, non-procedural section of the Bill.
I want to address the question of the pensions levy. It is astonishing to me that the Government did not seem to know what it was doing. Two Ministers gave two totally different answers to the question of whether the levy will be gross or net of income. One said it will be gross, whereas the other said it will be net. There is a difference between the two.
Half a billion euro.
Everybody receives a tax break on pensions. The Government set the levy at 3%, 6% and 10% depending on the rates of taxation. The actual rate is therefore 2%, 5% and 6% because the people on the highest salaries receive the largest tax breaks. That is a difference of €215 million.
The Senator can make these points during the debate.
These people are obviously asleep at the wheel. Unlike private sector pensions, which are paid directly into a pension fund, public sector pensions were until recently paid from current expenditure. Now that we have the National Pensions Reserve Fund, that is where the money will go. Instead of reducing Government debt, it will top up the emergency fund to get Seán FitzPatrick and the rest out of a hole. That does not gladden my heart.
I ask the Leader to seek comment from the Government on the apparent inability of leading people in the financial sector to tell the truth. We are offered a classic example of this on the front page of The Irish Times of today. A gentleman called Dr. Michael Walsh has resigned, giving as his reason that the institution over which he presided cannot survive without a financial injection from the Government. His board, led by Mr. Michael Fingleton, denies any financial implication. That cannot possibly be true.
Next Monday, Louise O'Keeffe will be persecuted in the Supreme Court for the costs of a case she took, the facts of which are inarguable. She was sexually abused in a church-run school. The church passed the buck to the State, which passed the buck back to the church. She is now being hounded and could lose her home. Even as we let FitzPatrick and the rest of the golden circle, the existence of whom I have no doubt regardless of whether they were in the tent in Galway, off the hook, we persecute an ordinary citizen.
Senator Norris, this case is before the courts.
I hope to God she goes to the European Court of Justice and we get a bloody nose.
We cannot discuss that case while it is before the courts.
We have been presented with the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009 to deal with the pensions levy. It appears the Government is intent on legislating by emergency whenever the opportunity arises. We have done this in regard to the State guarantee scheme and the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank and now we are about to rush this legislation through the Houses. That is an entirely inappropriate practice because we should be given time to consider this legislation. With the benefit of time, more knowledge has been made available by the Government to the Opposition than was the case when these legislative matters were rushed through.
In regard to revealing the identities of the ten people involved in the circular loans and funding for Anglo Irish Bank——
The dig out.
——the Taoiseach stated it was equivalent to asking the Garda to identify the suspects in a particular case. The act in which these people were involved is not similar to an ordinary criminal investigation. The issue of what has happened is known and the persons involved are known. It is not a question of looking for suspects because ten parties have already been identified in connection with the transaction.
Has the Senator a question for the Leader?
It is a question of disclosing the identity of the aforementioned ten parties. This and previous Fianna Fáil-led Governments have hidden behind tribunals of inquiry.
No questions.
It is about time the Government treated the Opposition and the public as adults by coming clean with information when it is requested to do so. The Oireachtas could thereby become more relevant and better perform its functions on behalf of the community. We could also move on from the banking crisis to address the real issues that are confronting the economy.
Has Senator Regan a question for the Leader?
No questions.
A speech.
Senators on the opposite side who practise that should know. Rambles.
Allow Senator Regan to continue without interruption.
I ask my colleague to avoid interrupting me.
Sine qua non.
In regard to some of the measures to which I have just referred, I ask about the quality and independence of the advice given to the Government. It has been reported in the newspapers that PricewaterhouseCoopers advises and acts as auditor for Bank of Ireland while at the same time advising the Government. Arthur Cox solicitors advises Bank of Ireland as well as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who gave the blasé response that such organisations have Chinese walls to prevent any conflict of interest.
The Senator should ask a question.
This is not quite a situation of a law firm acting for both parties to the same transaction. It is like a law firm acting for the buyer, the seller and the funding organisation——
Has the Senator a question to the Leader?
——in one of the most important transactions in the history of the State. I ask the Leader to refer the matter to the Minister for Finance and that he would request that the Minister, when he is taking legal advice——
Has the Senator a question to the Leader?
I am in the middle of my question.
What is the question?
When the Minister takes advice from auditors, accountants, consultants or legal firms, I ask that he seeks independent legal advice and ensures they are not acting for other parties who have an interest in the same transaction. We might thereby make better decisions and better legislation in these Houses. I would be much obliged to the Leader if he could address that question.
We have to hold a proper debate on the banking crisis. The contributions which I have heard in this House are not helping the situation in terms of our international standing. We need to take responsibility and be measured in what we say as we deal with the banking crisis in a proper way as legislators in this House. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the possibility of new legislation to govern the banking system to ensure we have a proper such system that is recognised internationally. The current system and the people who run it have failed us. It is now time that we in this House, instead of throwing muck or indulging in ill-considered debate, which some Opposition Members have done, would meet their responsibility to the 1.8 million people who work and have livelihoods in this country.
Has Senator Butler a question for the Leader?
I already put my question to the Leader. I am not finished. The Leas-Chathaoirleach allowed a degree of latitude to other speakers.
That is not fair.
Respect the Chair.
The Senator should have asked a question after speaking for one and a half minutes.
The three barristers who sit in this House should know the legalities of the matter better than most. We cannot hang or flog people. I call on the legal professionals in this House to make their contributions in a more level manner. I also ask those in the legal profession who have been paid €2 million——
Has the Senator a question for the Leader?
I have and I am coming to it.
We are on the Order of Business.
I will give it to you like Senator Regan gave it to you. I call on Senator Regan and others to ask the people who were overpaid by the State by €2 million to have the decency——
Senator Butler must put a question to the Leader.
I have not heard one legal person ask for that money to be returned.
Senator Butler must put a question to the Leader.
Furthermore, Senator Regan's colleagues on the other side of the House——
The Senator must put a question to the Leader.
——have been involved in tribunals.
Does Senator Butler have a question for the Leader?
The Leader is simple——
Yes, he is. There is no doubt about that.
I ask the Leader to provide time for a discussion on the banking crisis. I am expressing my thoughts, which I am allowed to do.
We cannot have a debate on the issue today, Senator.
I am concerned the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009 — a long title for a Bill — is to be rushed through this House next week. The Leader has stated the Bill will be taken in the House next Wednesday at 8 p.m. From memory, we, in both Houses, do not do a very good job when we pass legislation in this manner. Rushed legislation is usually bad legislation. I recall the Leader, following a point made by Senator Ross in regard to legislation being debated in this House some six or seven years ago, coming into the House at midnight and informing us the Bill was being dropped. Legislation which receives attention is usually better legislation. The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill was published yesterday and the first opportunity which this House will have to debate it will be at 8 p.m. next Wednesday. I urge the Leader to ensure this House gives more consideration to this legislation.
A number of Senators spoke about energy and electricity. It is time we debated energy in general. I am concerned we are not considering this issue in the long term. We import practically all of our power. I gather that if we do manage to obtain sustainable energy, be it wave, tidal or wind — it is unlikely to be solar — it is likely to be of only minimal benefit during the next 20 years. We should debate this issue and should not exclude from such debate the issue of nuclear energy. I am not proposing we use nuclear energy as I do not know enough about it. However, I read earlier in the week that 43 countries in the world have nuclear energy. Two thirds of the world population live in countries that have nuclear energy. We have decided not even to consider nuclear energy or include discussion of it in our debate. I suggest we have a debate on energy which includes all options.
I am concerned at the closeness of crime to normal business. I learned this week of a debt collecting agency which has employed a person known to have been a criminal in the past. I am concerned at the acceptance of this as a means of collecting debt. I was impressed to hear this week that a shopkeeper in Galway seeking to recoup debts for some years has displayed on his window the names of his debtors.
County Cavan.
I apologise. I thought it was in Galway.
Is Senator Quinn seeking a debate on the matter?
I would like a debate on the ability to run businesses without having to resort to criminality.
Some years ago, a bad debt collecting company was established. The debt collector would park outside the debtor's door, knock and ask to speak to the debtor and if told the person was not home, would sit outside and wait until the person came home. People who had bad debt collectors sit outside their homes or businesses for 24 hours quickly paid up. It is time we debated the issue of criminality once again.
I ask that the Leader provide time for a debate on social partnership. The reality is that social partnership has served this country well. Reference was made earlier to the difficulties in the past couple of months in the social partnership framework. If we are to move forward in these difficult times we must request the Taoiseach to make a state of the nation address on television, give the clear facts, without party political implications, and tell the people we can and will get through these difficult times if we work together. We cannot continue saying that the next income grade should pay higher tax or that before we are prepared to do our bit we want something done to sort out issues in other areas. Many of the issues with which we must deal are immediate. We need to take action now. We cannot wait until the world is perfect to ensure we do what is right.
I make a renewed call for a debate on social partnership to restate the benefits it has brought to this State and to request that everybody works together to ensure we move forward.
I support Senator Hanafin's call for the restoration of the social partnership process, an issue I also raised yesterday. Social partnership has served us well in the past, in particular in the 1980s when we had massive economic difficulties, worsened by unemployment and mass emigration. I support the call for the restoration of the social partnership process, not least to bring everybody on board and to find a fair and balanced way forward. Rather than dump the economic crisis on the backs of public sector workers, in particular low earners, we should go after others to ensure they pay their fair share.
In an effort to restore confidence not alone in the political system but in the banking system, it is important the Government takes the lead and, if possible, identifies the ten people involved in the controversy at Anglo Irish Bank. It is important in these straitened times, when people are expected to put their shoulders to the wheel, that there is some element of credibility at the highest level in society, including in the banking system. People need to have confidence in the banking and political systems at this difficult time. I ask that the Leader request his colleagues in Government to ensure there is as much transparency as possible in regard to this issue, and that involves naming the ten people involved in the controversy at Anglo Irish Bank.
Senator Alex White referred earlier to an article in today's The Irish Times, which is good. However, I sincerely hope the damage to our banking system is not beyond repair. We must have hope. There is no doubt but that the drip feed of allegations and wrongdoing have been damaging to the system. Reference was made to the resignation of the chairman of Irish Nationwide, a man who has done nothing wrong. However, he has cleared the way for the Government to act in regard to that bank, which is one of the six institutions covered by the bank guarantee scheme.
Will the Leader tell us the reason for the Government's delay in introducing the necessary restructuring of the banks, including Irish Life & Permanent? We need to make a clean breast of things and stop dilly dallying. Two public interest directors have been appointed to each of the six institutions covered by the bank guarantee scheme. These people of experience and repute have been in place long enough to determine if there are people in those institutions whose positions are untenable, either at board or executive level. For the sake of the country, these people should take themselves off the stage. The public interest directors——
The Senator must put a question to the Leader.
——-should be guiding the Government in this matter and ensuring matters are rectified. As I said yesterday, if they could get the banks to apologise publicly for what happened, as their British counterparts have done, that would help. Many Senators have spoken of the need for trust and confidence. We will have neither without first clearing the decks. We cannot move forward until that is done. Perhaps the Leader will respond to my question in regard to restructuring of the six institutions covered by the guarantee scheme and in regard to how we can move forward.
I agree with Senator Cummins's remarks in regard to the pension levy.
Senator Cummins made that point very well.
Yes, he did. I concur wholeheartedly with everything he said in that regard. Fairness is what is important.
Hear, hear.
As Senator O'Toole said, we must have immediate engagement on this issue. Nobody wants to savage anybody in receipt of the minimum wage.
Well said.
I support the Senators who have called for identification of those involved in the support operation for Anglo Irish Bank. The sooner it is done, the better because there is a kind of opaqueness about what is going on with this shadowy carry-on which people cannot understand and which nobody is prepared to reveal to them.
Hear, hear.
There are people not far away from here who know those names. It certainly would relieve some of the reasonable public disquiet if they were released without any prejudice.
That said, we are in danger every day in this House of whistling past the graveyard. I ask the Leader to comment on the following. I have a great deal of sympathy with much of what was said on the economy on all sides today about the real problems which are being faced, but I am not sure people realise the situation we are in. This is not just a matter of one problem here and another problem there being solved — the pension levy, the banks and so on, which are all cumulative and disastrous. The real question is whether Ireland is facing national bankruptcy. Although I did not hear it expressed in the House, I heard it expressed yesterday and it is the question on people's lips which is not often uttered publicly. I was staggered to hear this question asked yesterday on George Hook's programme on Newstalk radio where an absolutely reputable economist from overseas, not in the pay of any of the banks, asked the question whether Ireland is facing national bankruptcy. He suggested we were heading in that direction.
That is not alarmist. It is actually where we are going and is what everybody outside this country but not inside it is suggesting.
Has the Senator a question for the Leader?
I have. I want to ask the Leader if we could have a debate on a particular aspect of this. That is a question which everybody outside this country is muttering. One can see by the credit rating in the international markets what they think. The answer is we are in danger of defaulting at some stage. It is an issue we will have to face up to because it is the kind of situation we are in.
It is not necessarily helpful to constantly bash the Government, so to speak, on this issue. There are other people involved who have contributed to it. The root problem in financial regulation is the Financial Regulator. I am tired, every time I hear a politician defending what has been going on the banks, of hearing them say: "Do not worry, it is being investigated by the Financial Regulator." They topped Mr. Neary, which is fair enough, but the Financial Regulator——
Those are points that can be made in the debate.
I am asking for a debate on this for the following reason. The Financial Regulator is an institution which has lost the faith of the international markets. They do not think it can do it because they think it is absolutely genetically flawed. That is the problem we will have to attack next. We will have to face it because it is no good not facing these appalling facts which the international markets, which are sinking Ireland into the mire, are beginning to face. We will have to do the following, namely, ask whether we are facing financial bankruptcy and ask whether the whole institution of the regulator has the confidence of the international markets, which it does not.
At a time when people are afraid of losing their jobs and not having money to pay bills, mortgages and groceries, of evaporating retirement funds and a complete lack of confidence in the key State institutions, as Senator Ross rightly said, I want to ask the Leader a series of questions. In so doing, I emphasise that the Fine Gael party will vehemently oppose any plan to rush through the emergency legislation next week. We will fundamentally oppose the Government, first, because the legislation is rushed and, second, because it is unfair. In light of the comments of the Minister for Finance in his so-called tweaking U-turn on the Bill, we need time to debate it.
Those are points that can be made in the debate on the Bill.
I appreciate that. I want to ask the Leader a series of questions relating to the economy and governance, and I would like a response. Who is telling the truth to the people regarding the real state of the economy? Is what Senator Ross said correct? If it is, we need to hear it. We have been told lies for long enough. Is there any real accountability with regard to the regulator, the banks or the Government? Who is accountable and where is the accountability to the ordinary people who are standing today in the dole queue at Clarke's Bridge in Cork? Who is in charge? Is it the Government, the cosy cartel, the golden circle or the banks? Where has the leadership been for the past 12 years?
With regard to the so-called golden circle, all I can say is that I am not one of them. Senator Leyden might think he knows who they are.
I am not one of them either.
They have done the ordinary person in this country a complete disservice and they are a disgrace to the island of Ireland. They should be held accountable along with their buddies and the Government which failed to govern for the past 12 years.
I want the Leader specifically to answer those questions because the people outside, the people working in this House, ordinary people paying their taxes——
Those are questions that can be asked during the debate.
I will conclude. Those people want answers. They do not want spin or Fianna Fáil-speak, they want cogent, clear answers and confidence to be restored.
This morning we all received a survey from the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association suggesting that 48% of those in small and medium businesses who were surveyed had been refused credit by the banks we are discussing today. I completely agree with Senator Ross that it is a culmination of all the crises which will cause our country to go down the tubes. The banks have a huge role to play in giving credit to small and medium enterprises so they can function, maintain jobs and keep money in circulation. I know the Leader has a keen interest in small and medium enterprises and I ask him to invite the Minister to the House to discuss this issue.
In a discussion last night with friends, I was told of the situation in Iceland, which has gone bankrupt. People there are driving up to get food relief in their swanky 4x4 vehicles. This is happening not far from here. Thank God we are part of the EU and, please God, we will not be in the same situation.
Senators Cummins, O'Toole, Alex White, Leyden, Bacik, Hannigan, Healy Eames, MacSharry, Norris, Regan, Buttimer, Quinn, Hanafin, McCarthy, Coghlan, Ross and other Senators have again highlighted their concerns in regard to the banking dilemma in which we find ourselves.
The Irish people have been a resilient race for many generations. In the time I have been around, I have seen at least three downturns in the economy. On every occasion, the Irish people came back and proved to the world their massive ability. The fact is we have had huge success in our lifetime, if we look back on it. Never could we have imagined the success our country has had, and the younger generations have had, in the past 12 to 15 years. We must acknowledge that a huge amount has been achieved. We have all lived to see it, we have all participated in it and we have played a part, as legislators, in assisting Governments of the day so that this could happen and that the correct policies were in place for it to happen.
However, there is currently a world downturn. We are no exception and certainly we are affected. As I said in the House on Tuesday, 80% of the produce of the farming community must be exported and 31% of all exports are from agricultural produce, whether beef, cereals or otherwise. Given our status as an island nation, energy costs, which have been highlighted by many colleagues, are vital. An opportunity has now presented itself, with Bord Gáis coming in with reductions of 10% and 12%, and 14% for those who are customers. Last Friday in Mullingar the Taoiseach instructed the regulator to ensure the ESB reduces its charges to the consumer by 15% in the next month or two. That represents a reduction of almost 30% in energy costs. Progress is taking place in areas affecting those most in need. That is why the contributions of Members in the Dáil and Seanad on the Order of Business are invaluable. They highlight the concerns of constituents on a daily basis and we can pass on these serious concerns and views to Ministers and Departments. I have heard Senator Ross outline to the House his serious concerns and he has significant experience in the field of finance. I have also heard concerns from those with legal qualifications on the Opposition side. There are three legal people on the Opposition benches. We are all aware that the majority of those in the Law Library are not on the Fianna Fáil side.
That is outrageous.
We are all aware that the majority of those in senior positions in banks are not on the Fianna Fáil side. Fianna Fáil does not get any contributions from trade unions when we stand at election time, despite the fact that more than 40% of the membership of the trade union movement are Fianna Fáil members.
They simply use brown envelopes.
What about the Galway tent? It is falling down around the Senator, who is suffocating inside it.
The facts must be stated in the House. Colleagues who have raised questions this morning have received contributions from trade union movements when standing to be Members of the House.
Name them.
The Leader without interruption, please.
It is very well known because on 31 January Members were obliged by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to disclose from where donations came at election time.
Who is the Senator talking about now?
They are freely available in the House. I am correcting the record.
I certainly did not.
I am correcting the record in respect of where conflicts of interest or loyalties can lie. Fianna Fáil are not the angels that——
We know they are not.
The Senator is dead right they are not angels.
A Senator
That is fair to say.
There is an even playing field.
The Senator should back track and come back out again.
The Leader without interruption, please.
There should be a level playing field.
It is like the song title, "You've got to pick a pocket or two".
I put it on the record to allow people to make a decision when they read the record of today's proceedings in Seanad Éireann.
Senator Cummins and many other Senators said——
On a point of order, will the Leader clarify who got the trade union sub?
It is very well known.
That is not an answer.
That is not a point of order. I call the Leader without interruption, please.
I am not satisfied with that. The Leader has made very broad-ranging, swingeing accusations against every Member on this side of the House and I object to it. If he has something to say he should put it clearly on the record and say what he is alleging.
That is not a point of order.
He should name the people of whom he is alleging that. Otherwise he is bringing the whole House into disrepute.
I call the Leader without interruption.
To be helpful to Senator Norris, I was not including him.
I got nothing, unlike some of my colleagues.
It is available in the Library for anyone who wishes to see it.
The Senator should not make such general accusations. As Leader of the House the Senator should act responsibly.
The Leader without interruption.
We should read the entire thing into the record tomorrow or next week.
I must place it on the record.
The Senator should name the people.
That includes all the financial associations on both sides of the House. That would make most interesting reading.
I call the Leader without interruption.
I must place it on the record and give the benefit of our experience to the younger Members.
The Senator has taught the younger Members well.
In future, when they are addressing the House they will bear these things in mind.
The younger Members have been taught well at this stage.
The Senator should name the people.
I refer to the request from Senator Cummins and other Senators for a special debate. Senators Leyden, Hannigan and Quinn called for a debate on energy, wind power and alternative energy. I have no difficulty allocating a half a day for this purpose. We are an island nation. This is a very serious opportunity to address the challenges of alternative energy for industry and especially for the creation of jobs.
Senator Donohoe called for a debate on industrial relations in general. I have no difficulty in allocating time for that. Senator Keaveney offered her congratulations on the project brought back to Derry. I wish to be associated with those comments and I will remember the views of the Member regarding future debates in this area. Senator Keaveney called for a debate on the Garda reserve force, neighbourhood watch and all the various community help organisations. I have no difficulty in putting aside time for this at some point in the future. Senator Camillus Glynn called for a debate on the establishment of joint policing committees. The committee in Mullingar will begin work tomorrow morning.
I cannot wait.
Oireachtas and local authority members will meet with officials and the Garda to establish how we can help and assist in respect of the matters and challenges in each constituency area. I have no difficultly in holding a debate on this matter.
Senator Healy Eames referred to farmers and the waste management scheme. We are all aware there was €150 million allocated for the scheme last year. However, the success of the scheme amounts to between €416 million and €417 million. As we are aware the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been a hard working, dedicated rural man from our neighbouring constituency in Cavan-Monaghan. I can only speak in the highest terms of the Minister, Deputy Brendan Smith. Everything that can be done is being done and payments will be made. I understand that negotiation, discussion and consultation is taking place at the highest level involving Mr. Padraig Walsh and his team along with the Minister's team to establish how we can help those who need help first and who need this grant.
Senator Quinn highlighted concerns regarding crime and bad debt collections and his experience in the past. His suggestion to the House was not a bad idea. For those allegedly involved in crime to be collecting bad debts for anyone is not to be recommended and I take the proposal in the spirit in which it was given. We hope to have a lengthy debate on justice and related matters at the very earliest opportunity. There are many Bills due before the House related to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the portfolio of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There is often an opportunity on Second Stage when the Minister is present and later on Committee Stage for questions and answers and the up to date position can be provided by the Minister in this area.
Senators Hanafin and McCarthy called for a debate on social partnership. I have no difficulty in this taking place. I wish to see the social partners and the Government staying close together. The success of our country since 1987 has been the success of the Government and social partners and everyone participating in our discussion.
Does the Senator call that success?
That is incredible success.
It was flushed down the toilet by the Government.
I realise Senator White is going for Europe and we wish him well.
On a point of order, I realise the Leader tries to keep himself informed, but I am not going anywhere near Europe.
That is not a point of order.
On a point of information, we are already in Europe.
We are pleased to hear that Senator White is staying with us.
I hope he does stay with us or we will be ruined.
The achievements of the social partners have been acknowledged worldwide. They have been examined by many nations, some of which have sent delegations here, including the United States of America. I had the great honour of meeting Mr. Tim Kaine, the Governor of Virginia. He acknowledged the wonderful achievements of Ireland in the 20 years during which the social partners were closely involved in deliberations. That success must be acknowledged.
Senator McFadden referred to small and medium sized businesses and the 48% which have been refused credit. I understand this has been the norm for the past 12 months. However, now some 12 months have past and we have assisted the banks in their hour of need. I understand the Government initially participated in assisting the banks in the interests of the depositors and is now re-financing them. On the Order of Business last Tuesday I welcomed the fact that two major banks are making loans available to first-time buyers at 2.45%.
They had no choice.
It was about time.
Approximately 10,000 first-time house buyers will benefit from the €2 billion that these two banks are making available. The next challenge for the banks and for us as legislators is to ensure that the banks make credit available to the small and medium-sized businesses that employ more than 800,000 people. I want to hear on the Order of Business from colleagues in the House if this is not happening in their areas. If it is not, we on the Government side will bring the strongest possible pressure to bear and tell the Minister for Finance why and where this is the case. We will consider what we in the Seanad can do to highlight this issue every week.
Order of Business agreed to.