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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 2009

Vol. 194 No. 5

Order of Business (Resumed).

I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange for his party colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to come to the House to explain why the energy regulators, Michael G. Tutty, Tom Reeves and Dermot Nolan, are resisting the efforts of the ESB to reduce electricity prices by at least 10%. Some 16,500 people have switched to Bord Gáis from the ESB since Bord Gáis made its new offer. They are depriving the ESB of valuable income. We have to bear in mind that 7,800 people are employed by the ESB and 1,800 people are employed by Bord na Móna, which is one of the ESB's biggest suppliers. The movement of many electricity customers to Bord Gáis is jeopardising many Bord na Móna jobs in the midlands, as well as some jobs in the ESB. It is time for the chains to be taken off the ESB, which provides mains electricity. The ESB was responsible many years ago for rural electrification, which was known as the quiet revolution. The latest quiet revolution is the transfer of many electricity customers from the ESB to Bord Gáis. That will cause great difficulties in the future. The ESB is responsible for the maintenance of the main lines and wires and the repair of storm damage. A great deal of infrastructure has been provided by the ESB, using taxpayers' money and now another semi-State body is competing for the business on the same lines. I ask the regulator to make a decision. I understand it is about to take place, but why has it been delayed for so long? I expect more people to join the 16,500 people who have already switched to Bord Gáis on foot of the proposed reduction.

I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or his colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, to come to the House to comment on the recommendation made by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to the European Commission that there should be a total ban on eel fishing in the Republic of Ireland for over 90 years. That is the proposal that is before the Commission. No such ban is proposed, however, in Northern Ireland.

I raised this matter on the Adjournment two weeks ago.

It is a strange anomaly that eels will be protected south of the Border, but if they travel North they may be caught. The State is creating a new division on this island.

Just as there are no grounds for depriving 170 people of their jobs, there are no grounds for preventing the export of eels from the Republic to Europe. It is strange that the Department, under the stewardship of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is proposing a ban of 90 to 95 years. It is unheard of.

Like the Senator's friends in the ESB. I just wanted to maintain the equilibrium.

Does Senator Leyden know anybody in Government?

It is the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party.

I ask the Minister to come into the House to try to rectify the situation and ensure this proposal is withdrawn in Brussels. They are in favour of conservation, but not a 90 to 95 year ban. It is outrageous. Treaties such as the Lisbon treaty are always questioned because of regulations from Europe. We are too compliant with Europe and it is time we took our own stand.

They asked for only a 40% cut.

I thank Senator Leyden for his illuminating comments. There has been much talk today about standards and transparency. My colleague, Senator Alex White, raised the report of Transparency International. I am very happy to put my signature to Senator Norris's notion——

It was more than a notion.

He has many notions.

I mean Senator Norris's motion on this matter. I am interested to hear people giving out about standards in the media. Senator Alex White said there is an extraordinary amount of opinion to be heard these days in the media. That phenomenon goes back to when Senator Alex White was a producer in the media. The danger with politicians is that we start giving out about the media only when they start saying things that make us feel uncomfortable. When I tabled amendments to the Broadcasting Bill that would have sought to bring a greater emphasis on fairness and impartiality to the media's coverage of a range of issues, there was no support from the Government. People must be careful that they will not sound convincing if they start giving out about the media only when the criticism starts to irritate them. There are issues about media standards in this country. The media is unaccountable in many ways.

Are you calling for a debate on that?

Yes, I would like a debate, thank you for reminding me, because it badly needs to be discussed. In promoting standards we must be consistent if we are to have any credibility with the public.

I support the comments and findings of Transparency International. The issue of patronage will always be there in society and there will always be a degree of that in politics. I was in Italy recently and there was a very intense discussion on the phenomenon of raccomandazione on Italian television. People feel they do not live in a meritocratic society but in a culture of who one knows. We need a discussion in the House on that matter and whether we should have a body that is responsible for making appointments to State boards. It does not matter which party is in power, each party will try to put its friends into positions which arise.

The Senator speaks for himself.

We have to honestly examine our expenses. Transparency Ireland mentions politicians' unvouched expenses. If we are to have any credibility we need a fair and honest discussion on that issue. In today's edition of The Irish Times there is a report on Oireachtas committees. Leaving aside people’s salaries, with which we do not quibble, we are looking at over €2 million. Chairmen of committees are responsible for approximately €500,000 in expenses.

Are you calling for a debate on that? I do not want a speech.

One good thing about the media is that people will pay attention to those issues and as we ask difficult questions of hard-pressed taxpayers in this country, we will be expected to lead by example.

Good news was reported yesterday about a breakthrough in stem cell research. Members will know I had a Private Members' Bill prohibiting embryo-destructive research up for debate in this House in November. The good news is that scientists have managed to get adult cells to revert to an embryonic-like state so that it will, hopefully, be possible to have a limitless supply of stem cells while avoiding the ethical dilemma of destroying embryos.

Senator Mullen has taken four minutes on the Order of Business. If every Member tries to take four minutes we will not get many speakers in.

With due respect, I am not the worst offender in this House.

I did not say you were the worst offender but there is a number of other Senators who wish to get in and I want to control the time.

I respect that the Cathaoirleach has a job to do. The problem is that others get to gallop away to the races constantly and are barely interrupted. That makes it difficult.

I conclude——

Senator Mullen has made his point.

——by asking for a debate on that——

I call Senator Glynn.

——and also encouraging people to buy U2's new album because the Dutch economy needs the money.

There are few Members in this Chamber——

Very few today, that is true.

There is plenty of time for us to speak today.

Respect who is speaking, Senator Glynn without interruption.

There are few Members of this House or of the Lower House or, indeed, members of any chamber right around the country, local authority and other, who have not from time to time made representations for people to be housed. I welcome that and long may it continue. I ask my party's spokesperson on housing, Senator Butler, and the Deputy Leader of the House to arrange a debate on local authority tenancies and tenancies in general with a view to ensuring tenants are aware of their obligations — they tell us often enough about their rights but they have obligations as well — and also on the management of housing estates, private and public. The matter merits a serious debate in this House.

On two previous occasions I mentioned the rolling out of the joint policing committees and the municipal policing committees. This is a unique opportunity for Members of this House and of Dáil Éireann, local authority members and, indeed, leaders of the various communities in which they operate, to play a part in assisting the Garda in the control of crime. I ask the Deputy Leader, Senator Boyle, to arrange for a debate on this important matter as soon as possible. This new arrangement provides almost every elected member of the Oireachtas and local authorities with an opportunity of playing his or her party in combatting crime.

I join Senator O'Reilly in asking the Deputy Leader to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach the importance of an immigration agreement with the United States of America, and if we can see a rekindling of the McCain-Kennedy immigration Bill. This morning on "Morning Ireland" we heard the story of an Irish person being deported and of the fear of thousands of our fellow citizens in America. The Deputy Leader himself will be aware, from our own city of Cork, of people who are afraid to come home, who cannot come home and who need to have their position regularised.

I also ask him to have a debate on the medical card for the over 70s. This week thousands of pensioners are in distress. I hope thousands of them do not comply with the regulation, do not hand back the medical card and do not go back with the forms. They should have the medical card. They deserve it. They have been treated with disrespect by the Deputy Leader and his colleagues in government. We need an urgent debate on that.

Is that Fine Gael policy?

At least we have policies, unlike Senator Leyden's party.

It is important, in the context today of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources's announcement regarding the reduction in energy prices with the ESB, that we have a debate on regulation. There is complete mayhem in the area of regulation. There is a taxi regulator who will not agree with the taxi drivers, the ESB wanted to reduce prices and the energy regulator stated the company could not do so, and the banking regulator fell asleep at the watch aided by Government. There is no regulation. There is nobody watching regulation. It needs to be explained, it needs to be co-ordinated and, more importantly, it needs to be on the side of people.

I agree with Senator Keaveney. There is not enough analysis in the newspapers. There are people writing in the newspapers every day who are giving an opinion on everything from the colour of the hair of the dog to the price of cabbage in the organic markets and, frankly, many of them know nothing. There are some of them in this House as well — not Senator Harris, by the way, whom I respect and who has taken the soup a long time ago so we know in whose stable he is. There are members of the media writing on politics who, frankly, should be ashamed of their profession.

Hear, hear. Well said.

I share the welcome that has been extended on the research finding for the embryonic versus adult stem cells, and the proof conclusive that adult stem cells are as pluripotent as embryonic stem cells and, therefore, there is no reason whatsoever for research to be undertaken in this country on embryonic cells.

As an ordinary backbench Member, I find it is sometimes difficult to make a contribution, despite the best efforts of the Cathaoirleach. We may as well be straight and say that Senator Norris takes up a lot of the time here. I request the Cathaoirleach cuts back on that so that all of us get an opportunity to speak.

That is a little bit personal. Perhaps the Cathaoirleach will place on record how long I spoke for today, as opposed to his eminence, Senator Mullen.

Senator Norris has already contributed.

He holds a doctorate in interrupting and I support any efforts the Cathaoirleach makes to correct this.

That is very nasty.

We must focus on competitiveness. The world market is becoming more difficult and a wide range of areas, including the cost of all inputs, must be debated regularly in this House. I welcome the Government proposals to concentrate on jobs and export-led growth, which offer the only opportunity we have to get through this recession. We should benchmark State expenditure against expenditure in terms of a job. For example, if a decision was made to spend €300,000, it could be argued that 30 jobs could be supported if that decision was not made. That could be considered in debate.

If a couple earns €70,000 per year, their pension alone is valued at over €1 million, because one must have 17 times that amount to bring in €70,000 a year. Why should the State in this terrible financial crisis subsidise millionaires who have €1 million in their pension?

I rise to ask the Deputy Leader, who has a very strong conscience, about Mr. Eugene Sheehy of AIB Bank and the fact that he apologised for not waking up as the bubble burst, leading to €2.9 billion being written off.

I was brought up to believe that debts had to be repaid, but this is not being done here. Senator Healy Eames referred to people who have land that is worth something, no matter how low the value. Why is Mr. Sheehy being let off scot free when he has said he was sorry, that he was in charge, but he is not calling in the debt? The assets of these people, land or otherwise, should be repossessed and used to support this debt. Why should they get away with it? Mr. Sheehy has no intention of quitting. He is on his fat salary, but he gets away scot free. I ask the Deputy Leader to ensure that he is taken to task.

Whether we agree with the way in which Jade Goody, who is dying, is conducting herself in public — that is her business — she has heightened awareness of cervical cancer and I applaud her for that. I also welcome the Government's cervical cancer screening programme. For once we are getting value for money. I ask, however, in light of our finally getting rid of the e-voting machines, that the money that was spent on their storage be spent on a pilot area for the cervical cancer vaccine for young women, some of whom will die because they did not get that vaccine.

I support my colleagues who have called on local authorities to encourage tenants to become involved in policing boards. It is a great opportunity for Members of the Oireachtas and local authority members to get involved with local community policing. It is a step in the right direction and is probably long overdue. We have an opportunity to ensure tenants are properly vetted when local authorities put them into a property. Tenants must have a responsibility to their neighbours. We all know that a few people have caused mayhem over the years in different estates, but that is not acceptable. As Senator Glynn said, it is vitally important to have a properly structured debate on that issue which affects many people.

I concur with Senators who raised the matter of energy costs and we must examine how we can drive those costs down. Senator O'Toole is right but he did not mention that the cost of labour in the ESB is the highest in Europe.

The ESB reduced its staff numbers from 12,000 to 8,000.

In fairness to Senator O'Toole, that is true. He is quite right but the actual pay per person in the ESB is the dearest in Europe. It is not competitive enough. We should examine that matter.

Through the Chair, do they need it?

It is the only thing that Senator O'Toole did not mention. We have an opportunity to become more competitive when it comes to maintaining jobs. We are losing jobs because we cannot compete in the electricity sector and elsewhere.

I also wish to call for a debate on eel fishing. While it might not be a big amount, there are probably a couple of thousand people affected in that sector who fish, smoke and export eels. Every job counts at the moment and we really need the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to attend the House to explain why we should restrict eel fishing. Perhaps there is a good reason but I would like to hear it from the Minister himself.

The Senator should read the Minister's reply to my recent Adjournment matter.

I congratulate the Minister for all he is doing concerning the ESB by using imaginative and innovative ideas to reduce costs in the long run.

Senators Buttimer, O'Toole and Butler have rightly drawn our attention to the lack of regulation of banks, the ESB and other companies. Against that background, may I say a word on behalf of the media which have the same role in society as rat catchers or people like Dyno-Rod who clear out sewers? It is not pretty and it is a bit rough and ready, but the truth is that they are the media. May I add, in parentheses, that nobody detests anybody as much as people in the media detest each other. One can be sure that if one section of the media calls something "black", the other will call it "white". However, the media have been doing a good job in this recession by throwing the lantern on many problems that have been neglected by regulators. Because of the media we know stuff about banks and the ESB that we would not normally know. Therefore, in the absence of regulation — or people whose function it was to regulate but who fell down on the job — the media do a very important job. They do the same job the Romans referred to when they talked about Plato's idea that there would be a perfect society in which a group of guardians would control everybody's behaviour. The Romans, who were a sensible people, rightly asked quis custodiet ipsos custodes — who will guard the guardians. The media’s function is to guard the guardians. They do it in a rough and ready way, albeit sometimes unpleasantly and they may offend people. They do guard the alleged guardians of our society, however — the so-called regulators whose job was to regulate but who fell asleep on their watch. In recent months, as well as regulating the regulators and guarding the guardians, the media have also performed two other important functions. The media have allowed the public to vent all its anger. That anger, if not vented somewhere, could turn incredibly nasty on our streets. There has been a large outpouring of anger, necessary for lancing the boil. The media have also given us a mass education on our society and political economy. May I say, if not three cheers, at least two cheers for the media.

I also endorse the call for an ongoing discussion on the economy, especially on financial services regulation as raised by many Members. For one, I know very little about the regulator's role, the work he does and what will be the new regulatory role. The public wants to feel comfortable that the new regulations will be transparent. Many want to understand the role and function which up to now they did not know existed. It is important this is coupled with a debate on the economy.

I would like if the Minister for Education and Science came back to the House to debate once again the cutbacks in special needs education. At no time in the previous debate did he say that any child would be deprived of special needs education. That is well documented. While I agree the media may be doing a good job, in this instance I hope they will be balanced in giving the other side of the debate. Every school's management is aware that no child will be deprived. Many case studies have shown that if it is necessary to give special needs education to a particular child in a school because the class might be discontinued, that child will not be deprived.

They need an appropriate education.

Senator Ormonde, without interruption.

I did not interrupt the Senator when she spoke. How dare she interrupt me now.

No interruptions.

Senator Ormonde should get the facts right and tell the truth. Children are being deprived.

Senator Healy Eames, please do not be interrupting other Senators.

The Minister is hiding behind the policy of inclusion.

Senator Healy Eames, I ask you to refrain from interrupting. It is not allowed in the House

The Senator is so rude it is unbelievable.

Senator Ormonde should conclude.

Senator Ormonde should stick to the facts.

I want the Minister to return to the House to give the facts as he always does. It is out of order for the Senator to suggest otherwise.

He never comes into the House at all.

Senator Healy Eames should respect the House and not interrupt other Members.

Is the Cathaoirleach going to throw me out for sticking to the facts?

Other Senators spoke about the recent breakthrough in adult stem cell research, which I believe is good news. We should not distract from or minimise the breakthrough for ideological reasons because it will help many people who are suffering. On previous occasions, we had the opportunity to debate the growing progress with adult stem cell research. What has happened is that the debate on embryonic stem cell research has distracted from the great progress made in the adult stem cell field. It would be worthwhile if the Deputy Leader could provide an opportunity to debate further the progress made in this area.

I hope we could have that debate in a temperate and moderate manner because we must think of those who are suffering and vulnerable.

I support Senator O'Reilly's comments regarding the undocumented Irish in America. He put their case particularly well. These are our people who are in America for personal and social reasons. One can only imagine the terrible suffering they must endure. They are really non-people in the sense of being undocumented. The danger is that, because we faltered at the first hurdle when we thought we would succeed in resolving the issue, we might not keep up the momentum we achieved. The approach to St. Patrick's Day is a good time to regenerate and energise our efforts in this regard, especially as there is a different Administration in America. There is no doubt the Taoiseach will raise this matter when he visits Washington soon. This House could also assist in resolving the issue by showing its concern for the undocumented Irish in America every so often. That description is somewhat clinical in nature, particularly when one considers that these individuals are our people. For the benefit of anyone who takes notice of what is said in this House, I wish to state that the American ambassador might at least be able to relay our concerns on this matter to the President of the United States and others in that country who are responsible for making decisions.

Senator Fitzgerald inquired as to whether there will be a new budget. In the aftermath of both Houses taking measures in respect of the public sector pension levy, it is hoped that the fall in tax receipts evident in the tax returns for November and December will be corrected. It is also hoped that the next budget will be introduced in December of this year as planned. If the position relating to tax receipts deteriorates any further, the Government has the option of introducing new measures. Such measures could be budgetary in nature and could come in the form of a new Finance Bill.

The Senator also inquired whether it is intended that a new central banking commission will replace the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland. It is certainly intended to supersede both bodies. We hope the legislation being prepared will confer on the new commission powers that are additional to those which the bodies in question already possess. It is also hoped that a distance will be achieved between the act of regulation and those being regulated. The system in that regard has proven to be extremely deficient in recent years.

Senator Fitzgerald further inquired about salary caps for those in financial institutions and banks. The Government anticipates receiving a report on that issue in the early part of this month and this report will inform a Cabinet decision. I hope that part of that decision will be a recommendation that particular caps be placed on levels of remuneration in banks and financial institutions.

The Senator proceeded to ask about front-line services. It is not the Government's intention to diminish any such services. In the context of the measures announced last year and in the first two months of this year, it will not be possible to provide the additional expenditure announced in the past three years in respect of many of the areas to which these services relate. This has led to a diminution of services in some of those areas to the levels that obtained in 2007, 2006 or 2005. It is not the intention of the Government to diminish any of these services below a level which the public purse can support.

Senator O'Toole requested a debate on financial regulation. There have been numerous requests — mainly from Senator Norris — for a rolling debate on the economy and if the latter took a thematic form, a debate on regulation could be accommodated within an overall schedule which we might discuss.

Senators O'Toole, Alex White and Leyden referred to the reduction in energy prices. An announcement was made earlier today to the effect that, from April, electricity prices are to be reduced by 10% and gas prices by 12%.

Senators Alex White and Mullen inquired about the report by Transparency International. I understand that report is excellent and refers to many issues which deserve discussion in the House. I refer, for example, to the issue of political fund-raising — which was addressed at an event last weekend — and the need to deal with how this is provided, the amounts collected and the purposes for which these are used.

The report also refers to the question of political appointments, a subject in respect of which I introduced a Private Members' Bill in the Lower House a number of years ago. A debate on the report would assist in informing the legislation we will require in respect of this area in the future. The programme for Government contains a provision in respect of the introduction of an independent electoral commission which would supersede the existing Standards in Public Office Commission. Part of the role of this new body will be to consider matters such as public fund-raising and public appointments.

Then why not take No. 35 on the Order Paper in Government time?

The Acting Leader, without interruption.

Senators O'Donovan and Keaveney requested a debate on the seafood industry. Senator Keaveney also inquired about the distribution of functions relating to the marine among several Government Departments. It would be apt for the House to engage in a debate on the seafood industry. Meetings are taking place today among representatives of the fishing industry, the Department and EU officials regarding the days at sea directive. The outcome of these meetings might assist in resuscitating life in many of our coastal communities. Senator O'Donovan is seeking a wide-ranging debate on this matter and on the economic impact that might result from the provision of additional support to the seafood industry.

The Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Killeen, has responsibility for fisheries and forestry. As a result, he also has direct responsibility in respect of the matter to which the Senators refer. Inquiries will be made with the Minister of State in respect of whether he would be prepared to come before the House in order to engage in a debate on the seafood industry.

Senators Keaveney, Buttimer and Harris asked about control of the media in the context of statements made at the weekend. Senator Buttimer referred to people in the media passing opinion off as fact, while Senator Harris likened the role of the media to a sewage-clearing system which operates, in the public interest, in the area of politics.

The House recently dealt with the Broadcasting Bill 2008, the debate relating to which was quite detailed in nature. On the previous occasion on which I acted in the Leader's stead, I was obliged to bring the proceedings of the House to a halt at 11 p.m. as a result of the nature of the debate on that legislation. I accept the need for a wider debate on all aspects of the media and I will consider how this might be incorporated into our schedule.

Senator Keaveney also raised the cost of alcohol abuse and referred to measures being introduced in Scotland. I am aware that similar measures have been put forward in Finland which, like Ireland, has major social problems caused by the level of consumption of alcohol. If a Government representative can be found to come before the House to engage in a debate on the matter, we should invite him or her at the earliest opportunity.

Senator Norris referred to the need to re-examine the legislation relating to rent reviews. Many people would support the Senator in that regard, not only in respect of private rented accommodation but also in the context of the State continuing to pay, through the rent supplement scheme and the rental accommodation scheme, large amounts of money to landlords in respect of properties to which reduced rents apply. The State could make considerable savings in this area. A debate in the House could inform the development process relating to any new legislation in respect of this matter.

Senator O'Sullivan requested a debate on the taxi regulator, while other Members requested debates on the Financial Regulator, the energy regulator and regulation itself. I will see if it might be possible to discuss these matters in the context of a single debate.

Senator Healy Eames referred to Allied Irish Banks's write-off of bad loans. I understand that the revision of bad debts on the part of the banks came about as a result of the fact that the security they took for those loans in the first instance was based on properties that were overvalued. In addition, people could not subsequently sell those properties for sums sufficient to cover the loans in question. We are referring here to money that never really existed because people pretended that properties etc., were worth more than was actually the case. That is the reality with regard to the bad debts that are being written off.

Are home loans included in the figure for bad debts?

I suspect that AIB is referring to its largest debtors in this regard.

Some 81% of the bad debts written off relate to developers.

I thank Senator O'Toole for clarifying the position.

The Government does not have plans to nationalise any other financial institutions. We just approved a recapitalisation measure and we are waiting to see whether this will have the desired effect. If such an effect is not forthcoming, consideration may be required in respect of a further injection of capital. The option of nationalisation has not been considered by the Government in recent times.

Senator Healy Eames also referred to special needs and recent decisions relating thereto. The Minister provided some clarification in respect of situations where the numbers fall short of the 1:9 ratio, how classes can be combined and how certain children with special needs are identified as being most capable of being placed in mainstream classes. If the Minister is required to make further clarification to the House in this regard, then he will be asked to do so.

Senator Leyden asked about the energy regulator and eel fishing, as did Senator Butler. I will bring their concerns to the attention of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I suspect the proposal is made on scientific grounds and if the Minister needs to explain it to the House, I am sure he will do so.

He has done so.

Apparently he did so in a recent Adjournment debate.

Senators Mullen, Hanafin and Ó Murchú raised the recent scientific breakthrough in adult stem cell research. The House should note that and bear it in mind in the context of any further discussion it has on this issue. I am sure a request will be made for such a discussion; it has been made regularly in this House.

Senator Glynn spoke about the need for a debate on local authority tenancies. This is a local authority election year and it would be in the interest of the House, given that so many of its Members are directly elected by local authority members, to have such a debate to help inform that election process with regard to whatever revision of local authority election legislation is required. I will request the Minister and his Department to facilitate that. The Senator also spoke about the need for a debate on how local policing committees are functioning. They are still very much in their infancy. The committees allow local authority members as well as Members of the Oireachtas to make an input. An early debate will examine whether this initiative is successful at identifying and dealing with crime at local level.

Senator Buttimer, after an earlier intervention from Senator O'Reilly, spoke about the need to address the issue of the undocumented Irish in the United States. It is clear that the United States Government, like most other governments, has become preoccupied with legislative needs to deal with its economic situation and the issue of immigration and the undocumented Irish has slipped down its list of priorities. The proposal made by Senator O'Reilly will be passed to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. We will come back to the Senator and the House on how it is received. Senator Buttimer also asked about the medical card for people over 70 years of age and spoke about an individual with an income of €700 per week or a couple with a combined income of €1,400 per week having their medical card removed. The House has already debated that issue. The change was made for reasons that have as much to do with equity as anything else. The time to return to the debate is in the context of social welfare or health legislation being brought to the House.

Senator Hanafin sought a debate on competitiveness. This would fit in with the rolling debate on economic matters which has been requested.

Senator McFadden asked about the statement by Mr. Sheehy of AIB and the write off of loans. I hope I went some way in explaining the issue in response to the views of Senator Healy Eames. I believe much change can be effected in the existing banking system on a personnel level by bringing in new people to infuse new energy into the private banks as well as into the system of State regulation, which will get us far away from where we are as a result of a bad system of finance and regulation. I hope that happens sooner rather than later.

Senator Ormonde agreed with the need for a further debate on the economy and raised particular points about special needs education.

I believe I have covered the questions asked by Members.

I asked about the cervical cancer vaccine.

I am sorry. Senator McFadden pointed out the success and prioritisation of the screening programme and mentioned the current coverage in the media of a young woman who is dying of the disease in the United Kingdom. The Senator mentioned the savings it is hoped will be made on the e-voting system. It is unfortunate that when we talk about saving money, the money is not available to be spent on other things due to the huge hole in our public finances. However, everybody agrees that when it is possible to engage in new expenditure, that must be a priority area. Until then, the screening programme will be our main weapon for dealing with this unfortunate condition.

Order of Business agreed to.
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