The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re time for Order of Business, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No, 2, motion re Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children — extension of deadline, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, motion re bilateral agreements in civil law (back from committee), to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 2; No. 4, motion re co-operation between Iceland and Norway (back from committee) to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 3; No. 5, motion re Council Framework decision on supervision measures (back from committee) to be taken without debate on the conclusion of No 4; and No 6, Adoption Bill 2009 — Committee Stage (resumed).
Order of Business.
The fact that 700 people queued for food yesterday in Dublin is a terrible legacy for a Government that has been in power for more than 12 years. The Leader should ask for the relevant Minister to be brought into this House immediately because 2009 is turning out to be an extremely black year for workers, with more than 1,000 people losing their jobs on every working day since the beginning of the year. We are on course to see well in excess of 100,000 people losing their jobs by the end of the summer and this warrants urgent action on behalf of the Government. The relevant Minister should be brought into this House immediately. It is far too serious to be just point scoring on this, which is becoming an urgent crisis for the people of Ireland. I ask the Leader to have the relevant Minister address this House immediately.
I also ask that the Minister for Health and Children be invited to address the Seanad because there are enormous delays as regards the same people who are losing their jobs being able to access medical cards and other services, both from the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Health and Children, simply because staff are overwhelmed by the number of applications they have to process.
I would also like the Minister for Health and Children to address this House on urgent issues within the health service. I treat patients who cannot sleep at night and who require up to nine courses of antibiotics a year because they suffer from severe tonsillitis and adenoids. I cannot get those patients seen by an ear, nose and throat surgeon within two years and this problem has worsened over the last couple of months because of HSE cutbacks. I ask the Minister for Health and Children to explain to this House whether we are going to let children down in such a bad manner over the next couple of years or if something is to be done about this. I should also like her to discuss the issue as regards home help, because that is also becoming a crisis within our communities.
Senator Jim Walsh has asked for this side of the House to discuss issues as regards fees for solicitors. I have read the e-mail he sent to us and perhaps the Government parties would table a Private Members' motion in this regard and we would be happy to discuss it. There is some merit in having this discussed.
Finally, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, announced yesterday that she is setting up a new group to look at transferring care from hospitals into the community. On this side of the House, we would be very willing to assist the Minister in any way she wants to make progress on this because it is very important for the future of the health care service. In a spirit of co-operation with the Government, we would be delighted to help her with that endeavour.
Will the Deputy Leader not agree that IBEC has today hit a new low with its proposal to attack social welfare, conveniently forgetting, as ever, that it was its members and main funders, the big banks, that led us into most of the trouble we face? Having used every subterfuge, trick and manoeuvre to deprive workers of pay over the last number of months, wherever they could afford to do it, they are now going for the final trick of saying, in effect, we should hit social welfare. Will the Deputy Leader tell the Government to make the rest of us share the pain, make the sacrifices and do whatever is required but leave social welfare alone? The Government would get a resounding "thank you" and support from the electorate for taking that view. It has been articulated by the Taoiseach on a number of occasions that it is not his intention to target social welfare. While he rightly made the case that everybody must play their part, let those with most pay most.
This morning the aid organisation, Dóchas, will make a presentation to the Sub-committee on Overseas Development. I expect one of the points it will make will be the impact further cuts will have on the world's poor. Tonight approximately 1 billion people throughout the world will go to bed hungry. Last week the OECD made the point that it is worried that any cuts to the aid budget will reduce the impact aid has had over recent years and will undo some of the good done in trying to achieve the millennium development goals.
Today in the ExCel Centre in London's docklands, I hope to see the G20 governments restate the commitment that they will continue to give to the developing countries. We can do the same in this country and I ask Senators on the Government side, in advance of next week's mini-budget, to make the case for the aid budget to be retained as it stands. It suffered disproportionately in recent cuts and it needs to be left alone.
Will the Deputy Leader arrange a debate on the effectiveness of Irish aid? The Irish Aid programme has been very effective throughout the world in reducing poverty. I would like a debate so that we can explore those benefits and help to convince people about the significant worth achieved by our aid programme.
The Labour Party will make its submission to the mini-budget later today. It will be based on the need to get Ireland back to work, protect jobs and ensure fairness. Like Senator O'Toole, I thought this morning's kite flying by IBEC was totally uncalled for. If it wants to see the impact a reduction in social welfare rates will have all it has to do is pick up a copy of this morning's Irish Daily Mail which shows people queuing up for food. Social welfare rates were low in the past. During the Celtic tiger, many people were in poverty. Any cuts to social welfare rates will put more children into poverty. That point was made by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul which has seen a 30% increase in the number of calls. Proposals, such as cutting social welfare rates, must be ruled out.
We all recognise savings must be made but I suggest we start at the top. We will look for an additional rate of tax at the top and to close off any tax loopholes. We need to get rid of the ridiculous situation where disc jockeys being paid in excess of €500,000 by the State can still claim tax free status on the sales of their book about life as a disc jockey. The Minister for Finance needs to start there before he targets people on the breadline.
I will call first Senators who missed out yesterday. I call Senator Ross.
I endorse what was said by Senators Hannigan and O'Toole. What Senator O'Toole said about IBEC is absolutely right. It is quite extraordinary, disgusting and unnecessary to hear it call for cuts in social welfare. It is worse than that because today on "Morning Ireland", a director of IBEC appeared to promote this particular policy. That director of IBEC, Mr. Danny McCoy, also happens to be a director of FÁS.
The Senator should not name anybody.
He is a very experienced Senator and he should know that.
He was very fast.
No names, please.
The Cathaoirleach would not want to blink.
I apologise to the Cathaoirleach. The extraordinary incongruity of a director of FÁS, the State agency, which is meant to promote the interests of the unemployed and those on social welfare, wearing his IBEC hat and suggesting on air that people on social welfare should have their payments cut is completely unacceptable. Directors of FÁS get paid €14,000 per year for a part-time job and for doing very little. Their only achievement appears to be that they presided over a spendthrift waste of money over many years. It is quite unacceptable that the directors of a State agency should demand that those who they are meant to look after take cuts in this budget.
It would be appropriate if the Deputy Leader asked that this director of FÁS, who I will not name again, resigned as a director of FÁS and just wore his IBEC hat. It is totally unacceptable behaviour. I do not know from where the call for social welfare to be cut came. All manner of other cuts have been suggested in this House which can be made. These sort of antics where people can wear a FÁS hat one day and an IBEC one another day is completely and utterly hypocritical.
It is time Members of this House recognised that IBEC speaks for the big banks, as Senator O'Toole said, which are giving it most of its funding. These are not what they call "representatives of enterprise" but quite the opposite. The big funders of IBEC are the banks, AIB and Bank of Ireland, and the semi-State monopolies. It is time Members of this House recognised that and stopped paying tribute to at least one of the social partners.
I very much welcome the Tánaiste's announcement last Tuesday evening of her intention to bring forward legislation to amend the Companies Acts to increase the powers and resources of the Office of the Director Corporate Enforcement, especially in regard to transparency, loans to directors and powers to enforce compliance. Unfortunately, the legislation will not have the scope to deal with bodies other than limited companies, including building societies and other credit institutions such as credit unions and so on. Apparently, she indicated through a spokesperson that she intends to close that loophole.
In view of the appalling allegations involving Irish Life & Permanent, Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide, which is not a company but a building society, we can afford no longer to leave such a large section of our financial sector free from investigation and cross checks. As we know, many transactions between institutions took place which need to be investigated. I ask that No. 13 on the Order Paper, the Credit Institutions (Financial Support)(Amendment) Bill 2009, which we put forward, be taken in Government time because the situation is quite urgent.
The EU 8th Company Law Directive, which relates to the quality assurance of auditors dealing with public entities such as large public companies, was meant to be transposed into Irish law by mid-2008. The recommendation is that it should be a matter for the supervisory authority, the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority in our case, and not the professional bodies of the auditors, some of whom are the subject matter of complaints which remain to be dealt with. We are seriously out of line with EU and international best practice and it is a shame we have not dealt with that matter. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is clearly dragging its feet in the matter.
I refer to the two main banks. We have seen the part recapitalisation of one of the banks and the other is to follow. The guarantee scheme was very necessary but we all know something more is needed. There is much debate about a State assets management company to deal with the banks' problem property loans. We all would agree such an initiative is very necessary. It is a variation of the so-called bad banks scheme.
The Senator has made his point. Time is moving on.
It would need to be tailored to Irish needs. We all agree it is vital for our future and time is of the essence. Will the Deputy Leader indicate when that measure will come to the House because it is needed now?
Will the Deputy Leader seek clarification on yesterday's announcement by the Minister for Health and Children of the establishment of a new quango for health funding? It is a source of concern and I would like to know the basis for the Minister proceeding with this proposal. I am aware that a number of structures are in place. When we set up the Health Service Executive I understood it would be the body for implementation and the Department and the Minister would look after policy. Now after the Minister has been in office for so many years she needs another body to advise her on funding. I am deeply concerned and cannot fathom it. Especially at a time of merging agencies rather than setting up new ones, this seems to go against the grain.
Today is the United Nations World Autism Awareness Day. Initiatives are taking place around the globe, which I very much welcome. With the co-operation of this House there will be a release of balloons outside Leinster House as there will be outside the UN offices. There will also be a briefing in the audiovisual room, which I understand has been organised on an all-party basis and in which I would encourage all Members to participate. I congratulate the Irish Society for Autism on its endeavours in this regard.
I have heard my colleagues mention issues relating to social welfare. In some cases responsible people are denied a payment when other people are granted a payment. This happens in two areas, one where a person gets a lump sum of money, is responsible with it and invests it wisely whereas somebody else might squander it. The person who squanders it gets the payment but the person who invests the lump sum is denied the payment. Equally a 19 or 20 year old who stays at home is denied a social welfare payment but if he or she moves into a flat or apartment he or she would be given a payment in addition to assistance for energy bills and rent, and many other supplements, which seems crazy.
Will the Deputy Leader get some information on what I understand to be a new culture of carrying knife-like weapons. Is there any particular element in society that is carrying these types of weapons?
I agree with Senators O'Toole and Ross regarding the proposals from IBEC to cut social welfare payments. While there is an element of deflation in the economy, its causes are very specific, mainly related to interest rate reductions and oil price decline. This proposal is very divisive and quite nasty. Many people are in a very difficult position in this economic crisis. We are talking about the most vulnerable in society. There has been talk about a change of leadership in the country and in the banks. There is a question of leadership in IBEC. The statement on cutting social welfare payments is as out of touch as the leadership of IBEC was in agreeing a national wage agreement last summer that was totally out of sync with the deteriorating economy. There is an issue of leadership in IBEC. At a time when we are trying to find solutions to the serious problems in the public finances and the economy, to introduce such divisive proposals is unfortunate.
Unemployment has now reached 11%. Yesterday Fine Gael introduced a comprehensive pre-budget perspective which proposes supporting jobs, sharing the burden and restoring confidence. It is very specific in its suggestions. It suggests an alternative way to manage the economy in the dire situation in which we find ourselves. It has proposals on stimulating the economy and creating and retaining jobs. In restoring the public finances two thirds is focused on expenditure and one third on tax cuts. What we say is that no economy has ever taxed its way out of a recession. The question is whether we are going to chase down the economy with more taxes. Are we going to avoid the hard decisions on expenditure? Will this budget focus on the soft option of increasing taxation? The fundamental question for next week's budget is whether we will tax this economy into a depression. Does the Deputy Leader agree with that approach?
I condemn the terrible murder of publican, Matt Farrell, who ran the Gaelic Bar in Daingean in County Offaly, by ruthless criminals who tied him up and robbed him. It is an abhorrent crime against people who are living alone and vulnerable people who are active and strong but overcome by forces out to destroy society if they can. I commend the Garda Síochána which has 100 gardaí working on the case. The Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, met the Taoiseach in whose constituency this murder occurred. It is also the constituency of the Cathaoirleach. This murder has deprived a family of a father and grandfather. He was a fine upstanding man. I am sure the Cathaoirleach knew him personally. He was a former worker in Bord na Móna.
Many similar crimes are occurring at the moment. In Ballinlough, County Roscommon, a crime occurred in mid-March. The Garda apprehended those criminals who had robbed approximately €30,000 from the Ballinlough post office. I know everyone will be working with the Garda Síochána in Daingean and in surrounding areas. We need more activity through the community alert scheme. People need to be more conscious of surveillance being carried out on houses and pubs. We all need to work to ensure these people are apprehended as quickly as possible. It is causing great concern and anxiety among elderly people living alone in rural areas. All we can do is extend our deepest sympathy to the Farrell family on their tragic loss.
Will the Deputy Leader draw to the attention of the responsible Ministers some good news from Brussels yesterday. With decisions needing to be made on the referendum later in the year, we should look for any good news. The Commissioner for Competition has got agreement from MasterCard on interchange fees for debit and credit cards. It will mean a dramatic reduction — not as much as some of us would have like to have seen — every time we use those cards. It will mean a very large sum of money that will be of benefit to consumers in Europe. It reduces the fee from 1.9% to 0.2% in the case of debit cards, which is quite dramatic. It would not have happened unless Europe had grabbed hold of the issue. It does not go quite as far as some of us would have liked to have seen it go. It only applies to cross-border fees. Now it is in the hands of each national government to introduce the same sort of legislation to ensure we all get the benefit rather than having to give the benefit to the banks. It is one of the benefits of Europe.
I also want to give an interesting challenge to Europe and to the Ministers responsible. It relates to having a fixed date for Easter. Senators may well ask what that has to do with Europe. This year Easter will fall on the second Sunday of April. We assume that this is all to do with the churches. Some 40 years ago at the Second Vatican Council the Catholic church announced that it had no objection to having a fixed date for Easter. Some 20 or 30 years ago the then Pope actually proposed the second Sunday in April as a fixed date. Such a change would have many benefits. The World Council of Churches has also supported the move. Europe should grab a hold of this issue to knock together the heads of all those who discuss the matter. The benefits would be substantial.
Europe has managed to get us to change to summer time on the one date in March every year and to change back again in October. It has got us to use the same prefix for telephone numbers — 00. It has done a number of things that have been of considerable benefit. It seems that if we were to ask the Commission to investigate the possibility of having a fixed date for Easter, the benefit to business, the community, education and tourism would be very substantial. I ask the Deputy Leader to draw this to the attention of the Ministers responsible and to put it on the agenda so it can be regarded as of huge benefit to the community as a whole.
I ask the Deputy Leader to raise the statement by the Israeli Foreign Minister that he sees no benefit in giving concessions. The Israelis have not been known for giving concessions recently and their recent invasion of Gaza and its strangling of the Palestinian population by ensuring no food aid got into Gaza in the five months previous to the first rocket attack by Hamas in many months shows the Israelis are in no mindset for granting concessions. I ask the Deputy Leader to talk to the Minister for Foreign Affairs about Ireland's position on invoking Article 2 of our preferential trade agreement with the Israelis and perhaps linking it to access to Gaza——
Hear, hear.
——that there would be no access to European markets by the Israelis unless they give access to food for the Palestinians.
I raise the matter of a very disturbing questionnaire sent by the FÁS branch of SIPTU to councillors throughout the country. The objective of this questionnaire is clear when one reads the questions — for example, question No. 10 reads: "Do you agree with workers on the minimum wage [being] brought into the tax base?", while question No. 12 reads: "Do you agree that the lower paid and those on the minimum wage should be brought into the tax net?" Those questions are almost identical. Another question asks: "Do you agree ... the raising of taxes should affect mainly the wealthy and higher paid?" I believe that taxes should be fairly paid by all, not just by one group, whether it be the lower paid or the higher paid. Then comes the crunch. The questionnaire states: "In the event of a non response received from particular councillors, we will record that [you] have responded negatively and advise our members accordingly."
That is blackmail.
That is the point. SIPTU will go around the country advising all its members that this questionnaire must be responded to. To say the questions are unbalanced is putting it mildly. It is not a questionnaire, it is a veiled threat. I ask the Deputy Leader to take up this matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Billy Kelleher, with a view to questioning, through his good offices, SIPTU as to the purpose behind this sinister questionnaire.
The formation of dole queues was something we were expecting and something the Government was doing its best to plan for. The formation yesterday morning of food queues in our city, the length of those food queues and the despair of the people on them is another sign and a message to all of us that we must change the way we are doing business and respond to the extent of the crisis.
Many people in recent months have called for national government. It is now increasingly clear that what we need is not national government but rational government, where the Government spells out what it will do to tackle the problem our country is facing. In recent weeks, Fine Gael has made two very strong contributions to that debate. Last night, we debated our proposals on job creation, one of the two crises facing our country, and we outlined yesterday our approach to dealing with the national finances.
I concur with all my colleagues in stating that social welfare payments should not be touched for people who are going on to those payments for the first time. However, we need to be clear that what we are saying is that €3 to €4 of every €10 of Government expenditure will not be touched as a result of that decision. That will mean that for the other €6 to €7 spent, we will need to make the tough decisions we have shied away from making in the past ten to 15 years. My party yesterday spelled out what those decisions are, how much they will cost and what we would do. I want the Deputy Leader to respond on that issue.
On Sunday afternoon, a raid on the road next to mine by gardaí and armed forces discovered material for pipe bombs. Three arrests were made of people allegedly involved in subversive republican activity. This brought home to me very clearly one simple fact. We have taken our eye off the ball in terms of the threat that is posed to our national security. In the two years I have been in this House, we have had only one debate on Northern Ireland, two at the most. We need to bring this back to the top of our political agenda. We have talked about the threats to our economic security but we need to now talk about the threats to our national security. That needs be debated here more than it has been in the past.
I will conclude with the fact that the national Carers Association is organising a demonstration outside Leinster House this morning. I have been very careful in what I have said so far to acknowledge that very tough choices will have to be made in how we spend our money, but at the very least, let us publish a strategy to outline what we would do differently to help the people who need care most, even if we all know the money will not be there to do as much as we would all like to do.
I note this is the date on which Deputy Bertie Ahern announced he was retiring as Taoiseach last year and it is the 13th anniversary of the election to Leinster House of the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and myself. I use this opportunity to make the point.
The holy trinity.
Lucky Bertie.
Last week, I visited Spain to attend the youth advisory forum at the Council of Europe directorate on youth and sport. One of the key issues raised at the meeting concerned the mosquito device and I ask the Deputy Leader to ensure we have a debate regarding this device as soon as possible. I know this caused great mirth the last time I raised the matter not only among Senators but also on RTE radio, which seemed to miss its significance. It was the focal point of the youth forum last week at European level and has elicited much information from Irish youth since I raised it last. Adults do not hear this sound, particularly those over 30 and a majority of those over 20, but it has been used by the military in some countries as a form of torture — I am not talking about the mosquito device but about the technology of high frequency acoustic devices. I recognise that Senator Quinn said he did not need to resort to this type of activity when he was in business because he looked to classical music instead.
The advice from one of the participants at the conference last week was that because people had refused to enter locations which used this device, they had reverted to classical music. Other people have reverted to using pink lights which show up acne. There are other devices, but my issue at present——
Is there a question for the Deputy Leader?
I ask that we have a debate on this issue as soon as possible. It is a human rights issue regarding our young people. If we do not regulate or prohibit this device, it will potentially be used on other people. When it affects people over 20, we will probably take it more seriously.
On another issue, following my questioning yesterday of the fact that people who had been involved in significant tobacco smuggling received fines of only 13 cent, have we the right to ask in the House when sentencing across the board, be it for sex offending, rape, murder or tobacco issues, will be reviewed? When will we deal with people who are re-offending and ensure that sentences for re-offenders reflect the fact that they have offended in the past? I know there is a separation of powers but surely asking for these reviews——
It is a matter for the courts.
And for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
——endorses the debate we had yesterday on the tobacco industry. It is very important this is addressed.
I add my voice to that of Senator Donohoe on Northern Ireland. There was another shooting in Creggan last night. I would call Creggan "Derry", but the national ordnance survey map of 2008 calls it Londonderry or Doire. I ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to consider this issue. It is fine for us to acknowledge the different views on the town I love so well but there is the "Derry air" as well as the "Londonderry air".
We cannot debate that now.
I ask that the national survey offices would have the "Derry air" as well as the "Londonderry air". It is the place where I was born.
I support the view of other Senators who were critical of the comments made by IBEC, which advocates reductions in social welfare payments. It is most unwise of directors of IBEC——
Hear, hear.
——to express the view that cuts should be made in social welfare payments. What came to my mind on hearing this were the cuts called for last year by a certain senior banker, who subsequently resigned and fell from grace. He called for the abolition of free medical cards for people aged over 70 years and we have seen his fall from grace as a result. It is unjustified hubris for IBEC directors to make such calls. Perhaps we should have a debate on calls for cutbacks by people such as IBEC directors and bankers in terms of how justified they are.
On a day when we see on the front page of The Irish Examiner appalling pictures of people in Dublin queueing for food, we should reflect on the fact that those calls were unwise. I heard on radio on Sunday another IBEC director, not the one named by Senator Ross, whom I am happy to name——
There should be no names.
——Turlough O'Sullivan, calling for the abolition of the Seanad as a way of cutting Government spending. It was extremely inappropriate of somebody in his position to make such a call as he was overstepping his role.
Hear, hear.
I welcome the changes proposed this morning to the Order of Business. During the debate on Seanad Reform, I called for time limits to be imposed on all Senators on the Order of Business and on the Leader's response. That would make the Order of Business more democratic and lively, and would allow more people to contribute, which is positive.
Hear, hear.
I welcome the exhibition that is on display in Leinster House 2000 to commemorate the 90th anniversary of the Oireachtas. It is a wonderful exhibition with some really evocative photographs. I urge all those who have not seen it to go and have a look. Some of the most memorable photographs include that of the statue of Queen Victoria, which was removed——-
Members are free to go and view the exhibition. We must move on.
It may be time for us to once again request the removal of cars from Leinster Lawn. Given that the statue of Queen Victoria was removed, and rightly so, cars should also be removed.
It is bordering on the obscene that people who benefited most from the Celtic tiger seek to punish and humiliate people who benefited least from it.
Hear, hear.
The crude intervention by IBEC on the social welfare issue is a recipe for social unrest. It is not enough for us to condemn or be critical of this call, IBEC should move immediately on a damage limitation exercise. If it does not do so, its comments in this case could have very serious consequences for the country. One has to ask why the captains of industry are intervening in this manner. Is it intended to shock or distract? Whatever it is, it is not wise. There must be someone in IBEC who could have called a halt to this intervention. I say reluctantly that it is at a time like this one gets an insight into the mindset of the French Revolution. It is absolutely vital that this House declares it is a matter for Government in the first instance to introduce the budget and subsequently for the Houses of the Oireachtas to debate it. I am not suggesting that IBEC and its members are not entitled to put forward their case in a constructive and positive manner, but to humiliate and traumatise the people they have targeted is absolutely and utterly shameful.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I strongly agree with the sentiments of Senator Ó Murchú and others who condemned outright the call made by IBEC, which is absolutely reprehensible. That should steel us into moving forward. I ask that the Deputy Leader ensures that any attempt to rectify national finances next week is predicated on the principle of equality, fairness and targeting of those who are in a position to take the hit and, in fairness, those who created the problem in the first instance. It might be prudent for the Government to bear in mind that when it took the advice of Mr. Seanie FitzPatrick on medical cards, it was an own goal. It would be a similar own goal to accept the advice of IBEC on this matter.
Hear, hear.
Members should refrain from naming individuals outside the House.
I exhort the Deputy Leader to make a statement and bring to the Minister's attention the question of carer's allowance and the preservation of income, rights and supports for carers. The Minister has made a worthy attempt to limit the number of people going to hospital and to establish primary care, with the emphasis on community care, but we should not proceed with those policies, on which huge money has been spent, unless we support carers. Carers are vital in supporting invalids who wish to remain in their own homes. The provision of this service is cost-neutral. Great savings are made in paying carers rather than paying for institutional care.
Senators
Hear, hear.
People want to remain in their homes, where they are happiest. I ask the Deputy Leader to make a statement on this matter and to bring our views to the relevant Minister and the Government. It is important we support our carers, in particular at a time of huge unemployment. Where will these people go if they are not employed as carers? Where would unemployed people be better deployed than in the home as carers. This is a no-brainer and it needs to be said over and over again.
When a person speaks about sacrifice and that sacrifice relates to his or her own position or that of the pillar or group which he or she represents, that is laudable, but for IBEC, which is considered one of the wealthiest groups in the country, to call for sacrifices from the pillar that has the least is totally unacceptable. In the current round of cuts and increases in taxation, the Cabinet has spent hours and days deliberating and painstakingly considering what needs to be done to ensure equity and fairness. It is futile for any one pillar of society to point to another and suggest that it should bear the burden.
I support the calls made this morning for the commencement of discussions with the Northern Ireland and Scottish representatives in regard to areas of common interest such as minimum pricing orders, be it in respect of tobacco or alcohol, which would ensure we could raise taxation in an equitable manner and that gangsters could not profit from cross-Border trade illegal trafficking. Perhaps the Deputy Leader will take up this matter and ask the Minister to ensure there is consultation with Northern Ireland and Scottish Ministers.
I welcome the changes to the Order of Business, niggardly though they be. Five minutes is equal to £19/11, which was used in days gone by during sales in the shops. Why not go the whole hog and provide for an hour? However, the idea is a good one.
I wish to raise the case of Pamela Izevbekhai, which is a very important matter. We are all concerned about the practice of female genital mutilation. There appears to be some question about the falsity of the documents that were produced, the question of lying. A question also arises about the role of the Nigerian ambassador, who stated that female genital mutilation is a non-existent problem, that it does not exist in that country and that Pamela Izevbekhai has damaged her country. She said the Government was investigating the people who supplied the information on female genital mutilation, yet we have on record the Nigerian Government's submission to the United Nations from which it is clear the figures in this regard range from 2% to 65%. That is not a non-existent problem. The idea of investigating people who collect such statistics in an honest manner is chilling indeed. One wonders what might happen to Pamela Izevbekhai if she goes back to a country whose ambassador so clearly lies in this country. There are serious concerns about this matter. I suggest we might look at it.
With regard to the economy, I note that one of my colleagues has called for a metaphorical head. A Senator on the Government side invoked the French Revolution when speaking about social unrest. He seemed to look for a physical head in a basket, which is a little extreme. We should be prepared to engage in robust debate about the economic realities in this country, which are stark indeed. Senators have mentioned the chilling newspaper photographs of up to 1,000 people queueing for food parcels in Dublin. To my mind, that is one of the classic indicators of a depression. It is as sinister, at least, that a State organisation, Bord na Móna, has declared it may be unable to pay its pensions. I do not think Bord na Móna has been privatised yet — if it has been, it has been a disaster. I have highlighted two worrying indications that we may have reached a tipping point. Rather than merely calling for people's heads, we need to look at the situation calmly and rationally and reach conclusions that will assist the recovery of our economy.
One of the many valuable functions of the Seanad is to revisit questions that may have dropped off the screen. In that context, I remind Senators that the Northern Ireland football team beat Slovenia last night. It has barely registered on the radar of Irish newspapers, which gives the lie to the lip service that many people in the Republic of Ireland pay to the notions of republicanism and Irish unity. Therefore, I commend Senators Donohoe and Keaveney for returning Northern Ireland to the screen this morning. I ask the Leader of the House to ask the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House to give Senators a progress report on Northern Ireland. What I am seeing, slowly and surely, is the beginning of a rerun of the Provisional IRA campaign. When a policeman and a couple of soldiers were shot and killed recently, it represented a tightening of the screw that is being turned. The Real IRA and the Continuity IRA are starting to get more brazen, for example by functioning in public. They are tied deeply, of course, into the Shell to Sea campaign in the South. The predictions about unemployment that I made in this House before Christmas have proven to be correct. Around the same time, I reminded Senators that this is one island and warned of the dangers of dumping the problems of Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland and hoping they remain there.
If the group that is politically fronting for the Real IRA is active in the Republic of Ireland, it will become more active as the fragile social structure is leaned on by the economic crisis. Accordingly, I strongly recommend to this House that the Seanad can do great work to keep Northern Ireland firmly on the screen. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform needs to crack down on these groups in the South. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should encourage the SDLP to stop pushing so hard on Sinn Féin on the green agenda. If the SDLP is more green than Sinn Féin, that will not help Sinn Féin to be flexible. Likewise, the Government should put pressure on the British Government to indicate to the UUP that it should take some of the pressure off the DUP. If the DUP is forced to out-unionise the UUP and Sinn Féin is forced to out-green the SDLP, no progress can be made. We need a devolution of policing. If that is to happen, Sinn Féin and the DUP will have to co-operate. The Republic of Ireland should use all its different arms to encourage the two parties to come to a quick and immediate solution on the devolution of policing, in order to put up bulwarks against the very sinister forces that are threatening both states on this island.
On a point of order, I invite Senator Harris to withdraw the slur he made against the Shell to Sea campaign.
I will not. It is infested with Real IRA fronts. It is infested with them. The Senator should go away and read the Éirígí website.
That is a very serious allegation.
That is very dangerous.
It is ridiculous.
I support the Shell to Sea campaign. I have been involved with it for some time. I am not aware of this thing. We should have a debate on the ideas behind it.
Hear, hear.
I do not want Senators to have an argument across the floor.
I heard Mr. IBEC making his totally outrageous and arrogant proposal this morning. I ask the Deputy Leader to write to this so-and-so to ask him to withdraw his proposal immediately.
Hear, hear.
It is an absolute outrage. It shows how disconnected this powerful so-called leader is from——
If I have heard the Senator right, she has called someone a "so-and-so". I do not want that type of language.
I thought it was mild.
I ask her to withdraw it.
I was being careful.
It is pretty mild.
I actually thought that up.
I do not like that, to be honest.
To which "so" does the Cathaoirleach object — the first or the second?
I am chairing this sitting.
I will withdraw that remark.
I do not like the term "so-and-so".
No, I am sorry. I apologise. If I offended the Cathaoirleach, I am very sorry.
Not me, but the House. It is the House we are talking about.
Senator McFadden should use the words that are on her mind.
Last evening, Senator Buttimer and I raised on the Adjournment an issue that has been highlighted by the Carers Association. We called on the Minister for Health and Children to implement the association's cost-neutral proposals, but our argument was rejected out of hand. As Senator Donohoe has said, representatives of the association will protest outside Leinster House later today because they are terrified. It is outrageous that Mr. IBEC has the cheek to call for a 3% reduction in social welfare payments. I applaud Senators on both sides of the House who have asked the man in question to withdraw his remarks. I hope the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, will not take any of his suggestions on board. A delegation from the Combat Poverty Agency attended yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, of which I am a member. We need to consider how we can help those who have recently been made unemployed. As many such people have no resources for dealing with being unemployed, we should not cut their payments by 3%. I ask the Deputy Leader to contact the man I have mentioned after the Order of Business to ask him to withdraw his outrageous remarks.
I agree with what Senator Harris said. I was invited to speak at the Belfast Film Festival last Saturday as part of a debate entitled "Dealing with the Past: Conflict and Consensus". I was not the only person present at the debate who detected the audience's extraordinary concern about the increase in support for dissident republican groups, particularly within certain areas of nationalism that have not enjoyed the benefits of the peace dividend. It is something we need to discuss. Senator Harris put his finger on it when he argued that the competition between the two main parties on either side of the divide is retarding progress towards a more normalised society. The interesting debate in Belfast certainly served as a warning sign.
While it is right that we should challenge views with which we disagree, such as those expressed by the IBEC man today or the ICTU man yesterday, there is no need to introduce personal and vitriolic invective into the debate.
The man in question called for a 3% social welfare cut.
We enjoy parliamentary privilege and freedom of expression when we speak in this House. We should not deny those who do not have parliamentary privilege their right to freedom of expression.
My constituency colleague, Senator Twomey, commented on my motion, which relates to the extraordinary fees that are charged by barristers. I was told recently that a senior counsel sent someone a bill of €59,000 for reading a brief over a weekend, which is absolutely obscene. Many Senators will be aware of the case in question. I will not name the person involved. We need to tackle privilege. An article in one of yesterday's newspapers compared the remuneration of this country's university professors, lecturers and presidents with the remuneration of those in other countries. In one instance, a person was found to be earning 80% more than his or her counterpart in Britain. I remind the House that Ireland does not have a single university in the top 50 in the world. I put it to Senator Twomey that the Government is about to increase consultants' fees, thereby——
The Senator should address his questions to the Deputy Leader.
——bringing their salaries to over €150,000 a year, or 50% more than their counterparts in Britain. If we are talking about increasing taxes to buttress inflated incomes and waste across the public service, we are sowing the seeds of a revolution on the part of the productive side of our economy. We should have a 10% reduction in salaries across the board in the public sector — I called previously for it. I am now saying that those salaries in excess of €100,000 should have a 20% reduction imposed on the excess of €100,000.
Point made.
Let us move in that direction or we will not go anywhere near solving our fiscal problem that could retard growth and the productive economy for decades to come.
I ask Senator McCarthy to be brief. I want to get to a couple of Members.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indulgence. I want to make two brief points. First, the ECB rate is expected to fall again this week. In fact, it is expected to fall later this afternoon. The rate is as close to zero as it ever has been. Those on tracker mortgages will automatically be beneficiaries of that reduction, those of us who are on variable rates may, at the discretion of the banks, be beneficiaries but, unfortunately, those on fixed rate mortgages will not benefit. I have raised the issue in this House previously. The taxpayer has bailed out and recapitalised the banks. A quid pro quo is required to ensure the banks look at giving those on mortgages fixed at a time when interest rates were going up some benefit of the reduction in the ECB rate.
Second, it is preposterous that IBEC would continue this vendetta against those on social welfare and ask for reductions in social welfare payments. Those who are on €220 a week are finding it difficult enough to live on that rate.
Hear, hear.
IBEC should not be dictating social welfare policy. Let us not forget that the night of the budget last year a certain senior banker stated medical cards should be taken from those over 70. These people should not be allowed dictate our social welfare policy. Let us not forget that those in the banks and all these people brought us to this level, and also that IBEC represents its interests, not the interests of the most vulnerable in society.
As somebody whose job before being elected to these Houses was to represent industry in the chambers of commerce movement for quite a number of years, I regret that the kind of leadership we would expect from our entrepreneurs has not been shown in the context of IBEC's work and commentary over recent months.
Hear, hear.
To call for a reduction in social welfare at this time would be wrong, particularly when we see bread lines and the like. It is stark in the extreme. Happily, IBEC does not dictate social welfare policy for the Government. I express the hope the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, and her Cabinet colleagues will take the appropriate decisions next Tuesday in looking after the most vulnerable in our society, those less well off, those unemployed and those most needy, while at the same time ensuring that those of us who can, pay a little more. I am certainly more than prepared to pay for that.
Hear, hear.
In line with what my colleague, Senator Jim Walsh, stated, we need to look at public sector pay, particularly in the higher regions, whether it is reduced by 10%, 15% or 20%. Otherwise, I fear we will be back in September to look at the books once more.
As it is world autism day, the amount of supports for carers, who save the State some €400,000 in terms of free medical care, must be maintained. In line with the various supports in place, we must also ensure there is appropriate enforcement. As Members will be well aware, there are serious abuses of the social welfare system and as resources are now more scarce, we must be smart about how we apply them. With that in mind, I call for a debate on Science Foundation Ireland. For €180 million a year we get a tremendous return in the level of research and development, laying the foundations which will take this economy forward for many decades to come. While I am aware resources are scarce, perhaps we could look at increasing investment in the schemes and awards made available by Science Foundation Ireland.
I am sorry for encroaching on the Deputy Leader but I will take brief contributions from Senators Buttimer and Glynn.
Two potent images this week have struck us. The first was yesterday's of the queues for food in Dublin. ICTU man and IBEC man have done well while breakfast-roll man and woman, parents of that child with autism or parents trying to care for the elderly, have been victimised by the Government. I challenge IBEC to live on the minimum wage for the week and let us see how we get on. We must never forget the vulnerable and that is what IBEC has done this morning.
I join with Senator Donohoe in asking for an urgent debate on national security, Northern Ireland and, especially, law and order. I do so under two categories. We have become complacent about the North. We have seen a regeneration of activity by dissidents who do no service to all of us who are constitutional republicans and want to see peace and harmony in our country. We are losing the mindset where we must reinforce and support the Garda.
Second, we can never condone or allow people to have bomb-making facilities in any city or part of the country. It is wrong and we must send these people a strong message that they are not welcome in this society and must be taken out of society and incarcerated because they are doing a disservice to all of us.
I ask the Acting Leader to bring in the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with responsibility for drugs, Deputy Curran, to have a debate because gangland war has gone on for too long. We are painting a picture in the media, we are closing our eyes to it and we are not tackling it head on. It is time we got serious. It is time we took in hand the people who are doing this to society and our communities, from the small hamlets to the big cities. We are sleepwalking into trouble and the Minister and the Minister of State must come into this House and say, give us the answers and let us go out and take it on. I am tired of people coming in here and rattling on.
Point made.
I will conclude on this. We are losing the battle against drugs and gangland war and the time for rhetoric is over.
At a time when there is much pressure on the public finances and on the finances of local authorities, in the latter regard it is true to say that there will be great pressure on the provision of social housing in view of the fact that many people will not be able to provide their own homes. However, there is strong evidence, not merely currently but over a long period of years, to suggest there are people who have the benefit of first-class excellently-finished local authority houses who go on to wreck them. In am aware of a case where an individual and his family got, not one house or two, but four different houses and proceeded to wreck each one of them. I understand that in at least one local authority, on which a Member of this House served, there is a training programme to teach tenants of local authority houses how to manage the facility and to treat it with appropriate respect. I ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, come into this House for a debate on this matter.
I strongly support the comments of all colleagues who spoke about the suggestion that social welfare should be reduced for those who must live on it as a necessity. Social welfare was not invented merely for the fun of it. It was brought in to give an income to people who otherwise do not have one. There are many people benefiting from it who do not want to be on social welfare but, regrettably, there are also many abuses of social welfare. The Minister, Deputy Hanafin, is focussed and fair. If there is to be any focus on social welfare, it should be on eliminating social welfare abuse.
In the past I raised in the House the question of illegal fishing — the destocking of our lakes, rivers and canals. I regret to say, following a conversation with another colleague from the midlands, that this is still going on. I do not apologise for saying — the truth is the truth — it is carried out in the main by people who have come to this country such as those on a work permit. They are non-nationals. It is the truth. It may shame but it cannot be blamed. I want something done about it. I want the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, to come to this House to debate this and outline his proposals on how this practice will be eliminated. Counties Westmeath, Cavan and Longford depend heavily on tourism. Even course fishing brings in many tourists. This practice of illegal fishing must be stamped out once and for all.
I thank Members for their contributions. Senator Twomey listed a number of health related issues such as access to medical cards for people who are newly unemployed and the difficulties faced by eye, ear and throat patients and home helps. I will inquire whether the Minister for Health and Children might be available for an omnibus debate or specific debates on these issues. The House will have an opportunity to debate the issue of elder abuse next week. That might be a good starting point to discuss the home helps issue if the Senator and others want to make use of that opportunity. He also made helpful comments on issues such as controlling barristers' fees and the transfer of long-term patients into community care. The House should do as much as possible to progress these issues.
Senator Twomey also raised the issue of job losses which became a theme for several Members. Senator O'Toole referred to the statement made by a director of IBEC on the issue of social welfare cuts. The Government has no intention of changing the minimal income standards of those dependent on social welfare.
Hear, hear.
Senator Ross was correct to point out the very rich irony of the making of such a call by someone who represents his organisation as a social partner and who receives a fee of €14,000 for a part-time role on a State body, which is 50% more than the basic rate of social welfare. We could have an opportunity in Private Members' time next week to discuss public appointments and State bodies and develop these points. This debate has been bedevilled by the use of terminology. Those who claim to live in an enterprise culture always talk about subsidies and incentives when it comes to progressing their own agendas and issues that benefit them and those with whom they work but when it comes to social welfare and meeting the most basic of needs in our society, we refer to hand outs and imply people are scrounging on the system. Until we strike the right balance, it will be difficult to make the hard decisions that must be made.
The statement by the director of IBEC earlier was far from helpful. I do not believe there is capacity to ask for his removal from that organisation because it is separate and independent but given that he earns a fee from a State agency which is many times the amount on which social welfare recipients live, he certainly needs to consider his position on that.
Hear, hear.
The views of many Members concur with that.
Senator Hannigan had to attend a committee meeting to raise the issue of overseas development aid. That budget was cut by €125 million but we are endeavouring to keep the percentage in line with our target for 2012. It is difficult because hard decisions must be made but this is informing the Government's decisions. Whatever the Minister for Finance does next Tuesday will be part of the process.
The Senator also referred to the G20 meeting. We all await what will happen and it is especially important that a consistent and coherent line emerges from that meeting for our future development.
Senator Coghlan welcomed the proposed Bill on company law reform while referring to his own Private Members' Bill on credit institutions.
It will close the loophole.
There is great merit in the Bill. The intention of the Government is to bring forward the more all-embracing legislation. If the Senator's Bill remains on the Order Paper until we debate the Government's wider Bill, we can see where we are with respect to the loophole concerning the ability of the Director of Corporate Enforcement to examine mutual societies. The Senator's point regarding the European directive on the auditing of companies is valid. It should have been transposed by the middle of last year. This highlights the failure in regulation by not following through on this. If we are to introduce a new culture in regulation and auditing, we must be much better at enforcing measures such as this.
The policy regarding an asset management agency or a bad bank is subject to further discussion. I am informed the Minister for Finance will use the opportunity next Tuesday not only to outline budgetary measures to deal with the public finances but also to give a roadmap on general economic issues, of which there is general expectation and in which all of us in the political process need to be involved.
Senator Callely raised the establishment of an expert group on health sector funding. There is reluctance to establish new groups in the public sector but the need for this group is important, given that while the Department of Social and Family Affairs is responsible for 40% of public expenditure, the Department of Health and Children expends a large wedge on top of that and we need to ensure we are making suitable efficiencies. The group will be chaired by Professor Frances Ruane, director of the ESRI, which is a good appointment. The group will do good work.
Senator Regan raised the social welfare cuts and the issue of leadership. I suspect one of the factors behind the statement made on radio earlier is the impending change in leadership in IBEC. If that leads to this type of debate and thinking, it raises concerns about what will happen in the social partnership process, in particular, and it is good for the House to ensure its concerns are expressed and that this quality of debate and thinking cannot be considered in our future development.
The Senator also discussed Fine Gael's economic proposals. During Private Members' business last night, we discussed an aspect of them. He seemed to argue that we cannot and should not increase taxes. I agree increasing taxes too much and too quickly would make it difficult for the economy to recover. We apply the wrong taxes in this country and we tax unfairly and disproportionately. People on higher incomes, in particular, do not pay enough. However, we are still a low tax society and we must address that issue. We cannot make the two pieces of not collecting enough and spending too much fit and to claim, as does the Fine Gael document, that we can bring about the economic progress we need by tax cuts is not particularly intellectually honest.
I was challenged by Senator Regan that we can tax ourselves out of existence in making an economic recovery but the opposite is also true. The only way to achieve a programme of tax cuts is to introduce further and deeper public expenditure cuts. If that is what Fine Gael is saying, it needs to be more honest and admit it. We cannot have diverging approaches at this critical time in our economic history.
Senator Leyden raised the re-emergence of rural crime, especially the savage murder in County Offaly, and the need to support initiatives such as the community alert scheme. This excellent initiative predates the neighbourhood watch scheme and is organised by Muintir na Tíre.
Senator Quinn referred to the EU agreement on credit card fees, which will be helpful, especially as the level of personal debt in Ireland is a major issue, which we are probably still avoiding. It is many times the level of national debt and it also needs to be corrected if the economy is to work again. He also raised the question of a fixed date for Easter. I am not inclined in terms of the calendar or ecclesiastically to say whether I agree but I will pass on the question.
Senator Daly highlighted the statement of the Israeli Foreign Minister that there is no need for concessions. His view will be passed on to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The new Israeli Foreign Minister is the leader of a new party that is challenging the existing parties in the country. The party had a successful election and it is very much to the right of existing parties, particularly Likud. His position will determine the direction of foreign policy in that country in the future.
Senator Donohoe and others referred to the question of national security and the finding of bomb-making facilities in his local area. Senator Buttimer reinforced that point. There can be no tolerance for these activities. We should congratulate the Garda on their efforts in seeking them out.
Senator Harris also said we must be vigilant and cannot be complacent about changes in security on the island, and Northern Ireland. There are positive signs. The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly took place in Donegal at the start of this week with all parties, from all parts of the island, represented there. They discussed these issues quite thoroughly. I am somewhat optimistic that we can tackle the threats posed by this insignificantly small group of people by supporting the forces that uphold justice, and that we can advance matters politically, especially the devolution of policing.
Senator Keaveney spoke about the use of the mosquito device and other devices that are harmful and abused in terms of young people. I will pass those comments on to the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children with special responsibility for children and youth affairs. She referred also to the situation in Northern Ireland and talked about the insignificance of fines for cigarette smuggling. Many are concerned about this and it should be addressed in future legislation.
Senators Bacik and Norris gave a half-hearted welcome to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges' proposed changes in the Order of Business. I am sure the House will welcome the motion when it is put a few minutes.
Senator Ó Murchú commented on the social welfare cuts and the role of people such as the director of IBEC. Several Members spoke about the carer's allowance and strategy and the presence of representatives of the Carers Association outside the Houses today. The publication of the carers' strategy, even without its financial element, would be a welcome step. It must be a better document, however, than the present one. It must make clear promises about where the strategy is going. We must be particularly aware that any talk of reducing payments to carers is a false economy. If the State had the resources to provide that care fully it would cost billions of euro more than it does now. I hope a carers' strategy will see the light of day before the end of the year.
There were many contributions and I apologise if there are Members to whom I have not referred and will seek to make information available to them by other means.