Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jul 2009

Vol. 196 No. 9

Order of Business.

Senator Donie Cassidy

The Order of Business is No. 1, the Health Insurance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 [Dáil] — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2.30 p.m. Spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes and all other Senators for eight minutes and Senators may share time. The Minister shall be called upon, not later than 2.15 p.m. to reply; No. 2, the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 [Dáil] — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 1, but not earlier than 3.15 p.m and to conclude not later than 6 p.m. Spokespersons may speak for 12 minutes and all other Senators for eight minutes and Senators may share time by agreement of the House. The Minister shall be called upon not later than 5.45 p.m. to reply; No. 3, the Criminal Justice Surveillance Bill 2009 [Dáil] — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 2, but not earlier than 6 p.m.; and No. 4, the Local Government (Charges) Bill 2009 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3.

The business of the House shall be interrupted for 45 minutes at the conclusion of No. 1 and for 15 minutes at the conclusion of No. 3. I also wish to advise the House that I intend to commence the Order of Business tomorrow at 10 a.m. by agreement with the Leaders.

Senator Liam Twomey

I seek an urgent debate in the House on the issue of social welfare fraud and the manner in which this issue is being raised in the media. It is being reported that non-nationals are flying in here to collect social welfare benefits, but social welfare fraud is a wider problem. There has been cross-Border social welfare fraud for years. Irish people have been travelling to the United Kingdom to collect benefits there as well as collecting Irish benefits. Considering the number of non-national people living here we must be careful that there is not a witch hunt of non-nationals because of our failure to police social welfare benefits. Social welfare fraud has always been a serious matter and we need to be careful about how we report it so as not to engender a racist attitude towards non-nationals, of whom a large number live here. I ask that we have an urgent debate on the issue of social welfare fraud and how it is reported.

Many comments have been made from the Government side of the House about how incompatible Fine Gael and Labour policies may be, but it was strange to hear a Minister this morning urging her coalition partners to support her policies. Maybe the Minister should tell us whether there is dissent within the Cabinet about her policies. The Leader might raise that issue for us.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

We will never know.

Senator Liam Twomey

It is true, we will never know. Why will the Order of Business start at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning and will the time for it be shortened? If we are asked to sit an extra day we should make it a full day's work and make it look like a full day's work, with a full Order of Business.

Senator Donie Cassidy

That is the problem, there is too much work tomorrow.

Senator Liam Twomey

We should have a full Order of Business and make it look like a proper day's work.

Senator Donie Cassidy

We were here for 12 hours yesterday.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I was very glad to hear on the radio this morning the voices of some of my Seanad colleagues, Senators Doherty and Cannon, whose concerns about the Local Government (Charges) Bill were very well aired, particularly on whether people living in granny flats or self-contained units would have to pay the €200 tax. It was a relevant question on the legislation and we await the Minister's response, but the point is made very effectively that in the Seanad we have a forum for the scrutiny of legislation. At a time when the Seanad is coming under criticism what happened here yesterday evening shows exactly why we need a bicameral system for the proper scrutiny of legislation.

Senator Terry Leyden

Hear, hear.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Hear, hear.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I encourage the Government to listen very carefully to the concerns raised by Opposition and Independent Seanadóirí about legislation. Senator Norris and I had some success last week in the discussion on the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill, although we would have liked more substantial success. The Government will encourage people to understand the virtue of our bicameral system if it is open to a proper, open-minded consideration of amendments proposed in this House.

As we are all aware, the German federal constitutional court recently gave a conditional green light to Germany's ratification of the Lisbon treaty subject, however, to the bringing forward of legislation that would strengthen the power of the German Parliament over the application of European legislation in Germany. The German constitutional court insisted that it has the power to refute the validity of European law in Germany if necessary. That is relevant to us as we face a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Will the proposed constitutional change allow a similar right of way, as it were, to the Constitution and to those who interpret it when it comes to taking a serious dispassionate look at how European legislation might apply in this jurisdiction? I fear that our courts have not been sufficiently strong in vindicating the dignity and the role of the Constitution in this respect. I hope that we will follow the German model, regardless of the outcome of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty.

Listening to the director of the Central Mental Hospital this morning, I did not get the impression that there was any enthusiasm for its move from Dundrum, but perhaps I misunderstood him. While it is good that the hospital will not be located at Thornton Hall, I am not convinced that this is not a U-turn. There was obviously a plan to locate the Central Mental Hospital at Thornton Hall and now we hear that the site would not be large enough to accommodate other required forensic mental health units. I do not suppose there is a chance that the Government will recoup the high cost of buying that site from the vendor.

On a very serious note, I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the need to include end-of-life care in the corporate service plan of the Health Service Executive, HSE. Professor Roger Ulrich of Texas A&M University and the Center for Health System and Design said that Ireland has some of the poorest health infrastructure in the developed world. We badly need to put end-of-life care at the front and centre of our HSE corporate service plan to support the good work of the Irish Hospice Foundation and particularly its hospice friendly hospitals initiative and the design and dignity initiative in preparing standards and conducting audits with hospitals.

Senator Dominic Hannigan

I agree with Senator Mullen that yesterday's debate was an excellent example of how the Seanad can add value but we all recognise that it was the exception rather than the rule. It was a clear example of legislation brought before the House that had not been fully thought out. We are glad to see the reversal of the imposition of a charge on mobile homes, but anybody who was in the House could see that the Minister was making it up as he went along. He could not and did not give a clear answer on granny flats. When he was asked whether barges would be subject to a tax, he made up his response. While we need legislation, rushed legislation is no good to anybody because we will have to revise it later. The Seanad did a great job yesterday but the legislation that came before the House was not ready for the House.

This morning's report by the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, shows that over half of the sewage treatment plants in the country do not meet EU standards. Only one county, Longford, meets those standards. This is a case of chronic underinvestment. The plant in Ringsend in Dublin serves twice the capacity it was intended to serve. There is also a problem about the maintenance of these plants. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, said that we need more training and upskilling of workers at these plants but he has the law on his side. He can fine plants up to €500,000. There are health issues at stake. We need to ensure that these plants are maintained and operated at the highest standard possible, and their current state is not acceptable.

I wish finally to make a comparison between two foreign Ministers. Yesterday, Deputy Ring, to whom I am grateful, managed to obtain the information that our Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, took a flight from Belfast to Dublin, despite the presence of the M1 motorway which is very good value for money.

Senator Rónán Mullen

It was not flooded.

Senator Dominic Hannigan

The UK Foreign Secretary arrived here yesterday on a scheduled BMI flight. The lesson I learnt from that visit is that one of the most important politicians in the United Kingdom will take a scheduled flight. Unfortunately, the lesson our Ministers will learn from that is that if one takes a scheduled flight one might lose one's jacket so one is better off using a Government jet.

Senator Dan Boyle

Can the Order of Business be amended so that No. 25 on the Order Paper will be taken before No. 1? On the importance and value of this House, I mentioned the Broadcasting Bill on yesterday's Order of Business. This House does itself a disservice when Members say that any attempt to amend legislation is seen as a climb down or U-turn. The point of our being in this Chamber is to amend legislation. The Bills brought forward by the Ministers for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government show how this House works and we should be looking forward to many other such examples.

We need a debate on sewerage services. The EPA report is of great concern and even though additional resources in an era when less resources are being made available elsewhere are being made available for water services. Obviously it is not enough and more needs to be done. This House has a role to play in such a debate and I encourage the House to hold this debate.

Senator Paul Bradford

I agree with the call for a debate on the EPA report. It is with regret I note that two years after the Green Party entered Government it appears that the state of the environment has reversed rather than advanced. I see Senator Boyle shaking his head but the facts speak for themselves and the statistics are there. We debated this matter during the past four or five years and now we have a report that shows clearly that in our rural towns and villages our sewerage schemes at best are not working and at worst are dangerous for human health. Significant investment and political leadership are required and it is important that a debate on this matter of serious public health concern takes place in the House as soon as possible.

Senator Terry Leyden

I know the schedule is very busy but it is important we have a debate prior to the summer recess on the present state of the economy and to consider the past manifestos of the parties from the previous general election. The Fine Gael manifesto for the 2007 election stated:

Our manifesto commitments are fully costed and affordable in the context of the prudent budgetary assumptions drawn from the most authoritative economic sources. The Economic and Budgetary Framework agreed with Labour provides for continued government surpluses, and a reduction in net debt to below 7% of GDP by 2012.

Deputy Richard Bruton is no Nostradamus and contrary to the claims——

An Cathaoirleach

No comments on anyone outside the House, please.

Senator Terry Leyden

I do not mind mentioning Nostradamus as he is dead and will not be back.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Senator should not be cheeky to the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

No comments on Members of the other House who are not here to defend themselves.

Senator Terry Leyden

Contrary to what Fine Gael stated, it had no view of what would happen in 2009, that the international banks would collapse and so would the world economy.

Senator Maurice Cummins

We know what happened a few years before it in 2006, 2007 and 2008.

Senator Terry Leyden

Let us be real for a change. Fine Gael wanted to reduce the lower rate of tax from 20% to 18%.

An Cathaoirleach

We are on the Order of Business and it is questions to the Leader.

Senator Terry Leyden

It also wanted a fairer——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

What debate is the Senator calling for?

An Cathaoirleach

Questions to the Leader.

Senator Terry Leyden

The Leader might comment on this.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

What is Senator Leyden asking the Leader?

Senator Terry Leyden

Fine Gael also stated it would abolish stamp duty for first time buyers up to €450,000——

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Leyden is repeating himself; he stated this last night.

Senator Terry Leyden

——and have no stamp duty for up to €100,000.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Senator Leyden read that last night.

Senator Terry Leyden

I will read it again because Fine Gael is not getting the message. The propaganda machine——

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Senator Leyden has no chance of getting transfers.

Senator David Norris

Move off.

Senator Terry Leyden

This was taken down from the Fine Gael website. It has disappeared.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Senator Leyden will get no transfers that way.

Senator Terry Leyden

I will expose it line for line.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator Leyden to resume his seat.

Senator Terry Leyden

We are in Government now and we will solve the problems.

Senator Nicky McFadden

The Government caused all the problems.

Senator Joe O’Reilly

Has Senator Leyden read the IMF report?

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Senator Leyden wrote to Fine Gael councillors seeking transfers. He has some cheek.

An Cathaoirleach

I will adjourn the House if Senators will not obey; they are making a show of the House. I call Senator Ross and I ask Senators not to interrupt anyone making a contribution.

Senator Shane Ross

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senator Leyden for his preface to my remarks. I could not hear any of them but they were very entertaining.

An Cathaoirleach

Questions to the Leader, please.

Senator Terry Leyden

I do not write for the Sunday Independent, although I wish I could.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Senator Leyden is with The Beano.

An Cathaoirleach

Senators, please.

Senator Shane Ross

I wish to address a serious issue. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to address the issue of the pharmacists? This is causing a deafening silence from the Government benches, I suppose because of the situation that will confront us in the coming weeks. Everyone in the House knows that the pharmacists are sending back their contracts and perhaps 50% have already done so. There is a real danger that a nasty confrontation will take place at the beginning of August. It is now and not the beginning of August that we should be addressing this problem. When the Leader agrees to ask the Minister to come to the House to debate this we should ask her at the very least to engage in dialogue with the pharmacists.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Hear, hear.

Senator Shane Ross

This is not just an issue of people making a lot of money being able to afford to take some of it back, which is how it is portrayed by some of the Government spinners. There are two very important elements involved. One is the issue of small businesses, some of which are in serious difficulties as a result of the cuts made. They borrowed a lot of money on the basis of the fact that they would go ahead on the margins given to them by the Department of Health and Children for the medicines. The other is a serious health issue. I do not want to be absent from here with the House in recess when old people are not able to get their medicines because they do not have access to their chemists or this scheme.

Now is the time we should address this. There is no point in the Minister or the Government taking macho attitudes heading into the summer and going on holidays when there will be a mini-disaster facing them by August. Will the Minister come to the House? This is not a taboo subject as has been demanded by Fianna Fáil. It is a subject to be aired on both sides of the House so we can nip it in the bud prior to it becoming a national problem, which it will, and a serious difficulty for old people and small businesses.

Senator Denis O’Donovan

When will it be possible to have a debate on the fishing industry? If it is not possible in this term, perhaps it will get priority when we resume in September. I welcome the opening this week in Garinish in the Beara Peninsula by the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, of the largest farm in Europe of abalone, referred to by some as the sea slug aphrodisiac. It represents the possibilities fish farming has for the creation of jobs. I believe it is the largest farm in the northern hemisphere and there is a high added value market for abalones in places such as Japan, China and India as well as in Europe.

I also call for a debate on rural Ireland and the potential of rural tourism. I am enticed to do so by my home parish of Muintir Bhaire winning a European destination of excellence award for the Sheep's Head Way walk. It is a wonderful walk covering more than 100 km in west Cork. I was proud of it winning this prestigious award which was presented in Bantry last Monday by the Minister of State, Deputy Martin Mansergh.

We should have a debate on the potential of rural Ireland. Walking is the most popular sport in Ireland and for every person who plays golf — I do not, unfortunately, as I am too awkward for it — there are three people who walk. It is an inexpensive sport but it brings many people to places such as Donegal, Mayo, west Cork and Kerry. It is a wonderful activity we should promote and highlight more and we should debate the value of tourism generally to rural Ireland.

Senator Eugene Regan

Last night, the Local Government (Charges) Bill passed Committee Stage and will be concluded today. It is important legislation to provide for a property tax on second residences and includes in section 1 the Joe Duffy amendment that secured an exemption for mobile homes. There will be many Joe Duffy amendments to another measure which the Government seems intent on introducing, namely, property tax on primary residences. We have been there before and the experience was not pleasant. The residential property tax did not succeed. It conflicted with every basic principle of good taxation in that it was neither equitable nor successful and was difficult to administer. The Government parties should consider, notwithstanding that the Minister for Finance intimated in the supplementary budget that a property tax was being considered, whether they really want to go down this road. It will distract from what is really needed in the economic policies of this Government, that is, a focus on the expenditure and waste in public finances. I ask the Leader if we can expect an announcement on such a residential property tax in the coming weeks.

Senator Ann Ormonde

I support Senator Mullen. He made a point about the importance of the role of the Seanad. Once again, the importance of it became clear yesterday afternoon when we had a very fine discussion on Committee Stage on the Local Government (Charges) Bill. Many fine suggestions were made and it demonstrated to me once again the importance of the Seanad and how important it is that we try to ensure we have ongoing debate on the reform of the Seanad. While we may have put the issue to bed and said there will be reform, we owe it to ourselves to have an ongoing discussion on how best we can change what is already in place in light of the results of the local elections.

We also had a debate yesterday during Private Members' time on how we would reverse the rate of unemployment. The debate focused on what FÁS can do and the co-ordination of the three Departments. I would like to keep that issue on the agenda because many people still do not know about the courses available at post-leaving certificate level and back to education programmes. For us to debate that regularly would help to keep it in the minds of people that there are opportunities coming on stream, and we need to ensure that gets into the public arena.

I know the Leader has a heavy agenda, but perhaps when we come back early in September he will put the matter on the agenda again so we can have an ongoing debate on how best we can improve the situation of the unemployed and provide opportunities for those who are out of work.

Senator Feargal Quinn

The report of the Environmental Protection Agency issued this morning on drinking water should concern everybody. The survey it conducted showed 51% of drinking water is contaminated or below standard. It is mainly due, as far as I understand, to treatment plants and soilage entering river water. If the Seanad is to earn the respect of the nation, this is the very sort of thing we should be bringing to peoples' attention. There is a possibility that we have introduced too many laws over the years, not just in Ireland but in Europe as well.

The good news is that one thing we can now sell and buy as of yesterday are misshapen vegetables.

Senator Rónán Mullen

That is excellent.

Senator Feargal Quinn

It was a law passed somewhere along the line in recent years. Europe passed it and we did the same. It meant those of us who are not worried about the shape of vegetables, especially those of us who are watching prices, could not sell vegetables unless they were of exactly the right shape. We had to throw away vegetables and not avail of their benefits. I mention this because we pass too many laws that are not of value to the nation.

Other legislation introduced in Europe yesterday that is of benefit concerns roaming charges on mobile phones, which have been reduced dramatically because the European Parliament and Commission were able to say it was no longer acceptable to have such high charges. There are benefits in Europe. If we are to recognise Europe and the benefits we get from it, particularly with a referendum coming up, we should draw attention to the benefits we receive and work hard to ensure we do not pass silly laws as we have done in the past.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Will the Leader invite the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, to the House to have an urgent debate on the cuts in pharmacists' margins. I note The Irish Times today had a report that the Minister has written to Fianna Fáil backbenchers. Could the Deputy Leader tell the House whether the Green Party has been ignored because it has become irrelevant or has locked into the issue completely?

Senator Dan Boyle

We have our own avenues.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

What is it called? Is it called abstentionism?

Senator David Norris

It is called the Green leg.

An Cathaoirleach

Please, no interruptions.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Can the Leader invite the Minister to the House? It is important we have a debate and that the Minister outline to the House the contingency plans if 700 pharmacists opt out of dispensing medicines to medical card holders. These are old and young vulnerable people who are on treatment and need medicine the most. Senator Ross is correct. What is the plan? We do not want people to be deprived of medicines, taken to hospital and possibly dying.

I also ask the Leader that during such a debate we would discuss small pharmacists, such as Mary Shinnick who runs the North Gate Pharmacy in Cork city, and not big conglomerates. We should be a voice for the small people who are struggling and are doing their very best to survive in a very competitive market against chains of pharmacies. It is important to have such a debate. Does the Minister have a contingency plan? It is fine to talk like Rambo, but if she acts like Bambi the people will suffer. We need to have a contingency plan if the 700 pharmacists opt out.

Senator Mary M. White

I am delighted with the news that the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum will not be built adjacent to the prison in Thornton Hall. The mental health commission, the Irish mental health coalition and many members of the Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children, including myself, were totally opposed to the building of the hospital beside a prison. One is in prison because of a custodial sentence. Being in the Central Mental Hospital is, it is to be hoped, a path to recovery and being brought back into society again. People there receive therapy and counselling and are mentally ill.

I am proud today on behalf of Professor Kennedy to whom I spoke this morning and who thanked me personally for my valiant efforts. I spoke on every occasion against the plan to move the hospital. It was the wrong decision in the first place. It was done for financial reasons. Apparently, the plan has now changed for financial reasons. I do not mind once the savage treatment of people with mental illness who were to be put adjacent to a prison is halted. I am delighted.

Senator David Norris

I second the amendment of Senator Boyle on depleted uranium. It follows along the very successful role Ireland has played in terms of getting bans on cluster mines, cluster munitions landmines and so forth.

I would like to protest at the unprofessional ordering of business in this House. Once again we are meeting at a random time — 10 o'clock. We never know where we are going to go. I am not saying Seanad Éireann is a silk purse, but the Leader has displayed a remarkable talent of making a pig's ear out of it.

Senator Donie Cassidy

The Senator was notified last Friday.

Senator David Norris

I would like to raise the matter of pharmacies, which other colleagues have raised. It is very worrying. Once again we are in a mess. There are questions of employment, delivery of services to the public and a loss of jobs. We have all been involved in this over the years. It is ridiculous.

With regard to last night, it was a very good debate. We should welcome the fact that the Minister took on board the amendments, which many of us urged. It is a question of definition, however, and there were a series of very loose definitions.

I am astonished by the behaviour of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, in the other House. He has agreed to cut the fines for the blasphemy sections of the law from €100,000 to €25,000, and said yesterday in the Dáil that the draft of the legislation on blasphemy has been deliberately drawn up to make it virtually impossible to get a successful prosecution out of it. That is a very peculiar way to be drafting law. We are drafting law so that nobody can be properly prosecuted. It is a complete farce, a nonsense and an insult to the intelligence of the people. The whole question of blasphemy ought to be blown out of it.

I mentioned definitions. I cannot give the House a definition of blasphemy, but I can give a description of it. It is one we all heard and was printed in The Irish Times, that respectable newspaper, when that remarkable man, Mr. O’Brien, a former Fianna Fáil mayor of Clonmel, said: “They raped me, they buggered me, they beat the shite out of me and the next day put the Host in my mouth.” That showed the most extraordinary disregard for God and man. That is blasphemy. The laws were in place at the time but they did not nothing to save that unfortunate child. Let us not have a pretence or a farce. Let us have real and properly drafted legislation and forget all this nonsense about blasphemy.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I support the calls from my colleague for another debate on unemployment. We had a debate on the issue yesterday but the new figures from the Central Statistics Office have been published and show the trend continuing, with unemployment rising at a time when our national income is falling.

I find myself in some agreement with Senator Leyden. We should have a debate on the different documents and plans published by the political parties. When we do this, we should consider the document the Government published in November, the plan for a smart economy, which was meant to turn around our economy and get it back on the path to growth. What has happened since that plan was published? Another 100,000 people are unemployed and this week, six months after its publication, the Government announces a task force for the implementation of that document, not an update on how the plan is being implemented or on the results of failures it has had. Let us have a debate. I have no doubt the quality and vision of our plans will not be found wanting but I know we cannot say the same about the Government plans.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I echo the words of other Senators in calling again for a debate on prison policy. In light of the announcements that have been made about the Central Mental Hospital and Thornton Hall, it is timely that we would debate this. Like others, I heard Professor Harry Kennedy on the radio this morning. He is doing an excellent job in the Central Mental Hospital despite difficulties with facilities there, just as Governor John Lonergan is doing a great job despite appalling physical conditions in Mountjoy.

The answer to the difficulties with physical conditions in both institutions is not to build a super-prison at Thornton Hall. I am glad the announcement has been made that the Central Mental Hospital will not be moving to Thornton Hall.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Ivana Bacik

It was never appropriate to criminalise mental illness by placing psychiatric patients in an institution on a campus that was really a prison campus which included the enormous prison which was proposed for Thornton Hall.

I am glad it has been announced that Thornton Hall will at least be delayed. There is a strong argument to review in much greater depth the need for building more prison places as we have never seen an evidence-based rationale for building them. We know there are large numbers of people in prison who should not be there, including large numbers who are mentally ill and who should be receiving treatment. We know conditions within our prisons are appalling with very few rehabilitation prospects. We need a debate on prison policy in light of these announcements.

The Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill is before the House today, one of the many pieces of legislation coming to the House in this race to finish in July. There must be a better way of ordering legislation. Among these Bills, Part 6 of the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will reconstitute the Crisis Pregnancy Agency. I want to record my appreciation and that of many people, especially women in crisis pregnancy, for the great work the agency has done since its inception in 2001.

Senator David Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Ivana Bacik

This is an evidence-based rationale. The numbers of women travelling for abortion has dropped and women in crisis pregnancy have been much better cared for since the inception of the Crisis Pregnancy Agency.

Senator David Norris

Exactly. Well said.

Senator Ivana Bacik

We should all appreciate the work of the agency.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I would also like to raise the issue of people flying into this country to claim dole and the suggestion that each of these people defrauding our country has cost the State €10,000. This is extraordinary when so many of our people need the dole and we do not have enough to pay them at this stage. Why is there not joined-up thinking between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Social and Family Affairs so that PPS numbers are used to register these people? I call for a debate on this matter. The officials of the Department of Social and Family Affairs came to the Oireachtas committee to discuss all of these issues but I cannot understand how it has taken so long for people to need to be identified by their photograph, for example. This involves not just foreign nationals but also includes Irish people claiming dole while working or pretending to be sick. There is a serious need for a debate in the House on fraud.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators Twomey, Mullen, Hannigan, Ormonde, Norris and McFadden called for an urgent debate on matters pertaining to social welfare fraud and all other kinds of fraud. I have no difficulty in having the Minister for Social and Family Affairs come to the House to assist in this matter. As Senator McFadden said, €10,000 is a lot of money and if thousands are doing this, it represents a considerable sum. We want to do everything we can to support the Minister in the challenge that faces the Department in this area.

With regard to the debate yesterday on local government and the importance of the Seanad, as I said on "The Late, Late Show", the Seanad discusses every Bill section by section and line by line. The more Bills that are initiated in the Seanad, the better the legislation will be in both Houses. I compliment all the work the Dáil is doing and has done through the years. However, the Seanad has the capacity and the ability, and no guillotine whatsoever is involved. The taxpayers of Ireland trust us under the Constitution and Seanad Éireann is the upholder of both the Constitution and the taxpayers.

Senator Rónán Mullen

We do not have a guillotine but we have a cutting edge.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I compliment all who participated yesterday.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

On a point of order, will the Leader define what "guillotine" actually means?

Senator Dan Boyle

What Standing Order is that? Name the Standing Order.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

An bhfuil tú faoi bhrú?

An Cathaoirleach

There should be no interruptions from any side. If people want to interrupt, there is plenty of room outside.

Senator David Norris

We would not be heard if we were interrupting from outside.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I congratulate Senator Mullen on being appointed acting leader of the Independent group this morning. It is good to see him in that position. The Senator raised the issue of the Lisbon treaty. I assure him that the Constitution takes precedence over any EU regulation so the people can feel very safe and sure in that thought. We have always been protected by our great Constitution of 1937.

Senator Mullen also called for a debate on the need to include end-of-life care, which is very worthwhile. I compliment the hospice organisation, the voluntary organisations and everyone associated with those who are terminally ill on all they have done. We should all be doing more. I have no difficulty allocating time for a debate to find how we can enhance and progress any future good ideas in this area following the recess.

Senators Hannigan, Boyle, Bradford and Quinn referred to the EPA report. I am pleased that one of the counties in my constituency, Longford, is the top county. I congratulate Longford County Council, the county manager and everyone associated with the great work that is taking place. Coming from the lake county of Westmeath, I know it is a serious challenge given all the heavy rain from the hills being washed into the rivers and lakes. A huge amount of money is being invested by the Department at present and more is needed. I will certainly pass on the views of Senators and I have no difficulty having a debate in the House following the recess.

Senator Leyden referred to the various manifestos and pointed to the Fine Gael document suggesting 7% growth and no stamp duty for houses costing €450,000. How the world economy has changed.

Senator Terry Leyden

Exactly.

Senator Donie Cassidy

That party wants the same as the Government parties. We all meant well for our people but the world downturn has taken over. All manifestos are aspirational.

Senator Eugene Regan

Blame everything on the world economy.

Senator Donie Cassidy

It simply goes to show——

Senator Maurice Cummins

Here is Pontius Pilate again.

Senator Eugene Regan

The Leader has no responsibility. It is all the fault of the world economy.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Fine Gael is a human party as we all are.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I thought the Leader was infallible.

Senator Donie Cassidy

It is not simply the party of "No" as I stated on the Order of Business the other morning.

Senator Maurice Cummins

Fianna Fáil was not in Opposition for long enough.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators Ross, Buttimer and Norris called for the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to discuss the pharmacy situation. Despite all the legislation we have to debate and discuss before recess, this is an urgent matter. The situation facing the pharmacy sector and the Department of Health and Children is challenging. I will endeavour to have the Minister before the House in the next few days to update it on the serious situation regarding the withdrawal of contracts by pharmacists.

We all know the small family pharmacy is the backbone of our communities, parishes and everyone in our area. I do not want to see anything interfere with the services to which we have become accustomed and from which we have been getting a very good service. I have no difficulty holding an urgent debate in the House. As Senator Twomey and other colleagues remarked, this is an urgent matter and it is our duty to ensure we are updated on the situation with the Minister present.

Senator O'Donovan called for a debate on the fishing industry and fish farming, to which I have already made a commitment. Fish farming is a source of great potential for the country and any such debate should include rural development, everything to do with promoting tourism, particularly in rural areas, walking and all such activities, which are a great attraction and which is possible in our beautiful, scenic country. I endeavour to have this take place and I have already agreed to do so.

Senator Regan referred to the Local Government Bill and the value of Seanad Éireann, a topic I have already covered. Further taxes were implemented in the budget and we all await with bated breath 2 December next to see the difficult budget facing the country. I am not privy to what will be in that any more than the good Senator. However, the property tax was one of the reasons his party lost power in 1987 and I am sure we will all remember that in making up our minds about the budget.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I am sure the Leader will do so.

Senator Eugene Regan

That is what I was reminding the Leader about.

Senator Paudie Coffey

The Government parties will experience it themselves shortly.

Senator Donie Cassidy

The staunchest Fine Gael people voted for Fianna Fáil for the first time in 1987 and most of them have continued to vote for us.

Senator Maurice Cummins

They will be out of office soon enough.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Fianna Fáil lost 16% of that vote in June though.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader to reply to the Order of Business without interruption, please.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senators Ormonde and Donohoe called for a debate on unemployment and employment.

Senator Nicky McFadden

These are desperate stakes.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

They buried the Progressive Democrats and they will bury the Green Party next.

Senator Paudie Coffey

It is the last sting of a dying wasp.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I have no difficulty allocating time for such a debate.

Senator Quinn referred to the change in regulations for vegetables in the European Union, which we welcome. They did not make sense in the first place but I thank the Senator for updating the House and I very much welcome the new reduction in mobile phone charges, another great EU initiative.

Senators Mary White and Bacik and all other Senators welcomed the news this morning of the plans for the Central Mental Hospital beside Thornton Hall not now going ahead. We all heard the Minister of State in the Department of Health and Children, Deputy John Moloney, speak on the matter on "Morning Ireland". We were all in favour of a change in that area and I congratulate the Minister concerned.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Is that a U-turn or a handbrake turn?

Senator David Norris

Why did the Leader oppose it when we were demanding it on this side of the House?

Senator Donie Cassidy

I cannot hear the Senator.

An Cathaoirleach

No interruptions, please.

Senator Donie Cassidy

In the words of a very famous former Senator, colleague and Minister of State, there is never a wrong time to do the right thing.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

I am glad they have changed their minds.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I know Senator Mary White and all her colleagues today recognise it was the right thing to do and it is the right time to do it.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

It is a U-turn but a welcome one.

Senator Donie Cassidy

I will pass on the strong views on blasphemy expressed by Senator Norris.

The Deputy Leader, Senator Dan Boyle, proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, seconded by Senator Norris, regarding No. 25. I agree with the proposal to amend the Order of Business that No. 25 be taken before No. 1 if that is agreed by the House.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

We will see.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boyle has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 25 be taken before No. 1." The Leader has indicated he is prepared to accept the amendment.

Question, "That the Order of Business, as amended, be agreed to", put and declared carried.