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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Sep 2011

Vol. 210 No. 7

Address by President of the Irish Human Rights Commission

On behalf of fellow Senators, I welcome to the House Dr. Maurice Manning, president of the Irish Human Rights Commission, chair of the European group of national human rights institutions and former Leader of this House. Dr. Manning has served in the prestigious and influential role of president since his appointment to the Irish Human Rights Commission in 2002.

This newly elected Seanad is determined to modernise its procedures and actively engage with civic society. To begin this process we have changed Standing Orders to allow persons and representatives of public and civil life to address Seanad Éireann. Today is a particular milestone in that our guest is Dr. Maurice Manning, a former Leader of the House, who has had a very distinguished career as a politician, academic and human rights campaigner. It is in recognition of his success and expertise in the area of human rights that he is invited here today to address the House. We are delighted that a person of such reputation and high standing is the first to address the Seanad under the new rules. It is, therefore, a great honour and privilege to invite Dr. Manning to address the House.

Dr. Maurice Manning

It is a very great honour to be invited to address this House today, and one which I greatly appreciate. I am particularly struck by the fact that Senators have made human rights the theme for this session of the Seanad. It is in that context of parliament and human rights that I will make my observations today. I will also say a few personal words about this House and its future.

Occasionally it is necessary to demystify human rights. Sometimes the language around human rights is complicated, even condescending. Sometimes "human rights speak" can almost be a foreign language, designed to exclude rather than include people. This should never be. The essence of human rights is very simple. They are the basic, fundamental and crucial elements of all our lives and ensure we can live the best lives possible.

If we look at any of the rights protected by the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the international conventions that flow from it, we see, not a list of rights to be somehow given to us, but the very basics that should exist in all societies — rights to life, health and education, among others. In an ideal world we would not even need to talk about achieving human rights. They would already be inherent in society, allowing us to live our lives in freedom and dignity. However, we do not live in an ideal world. Human rights need legal definition and enforceability if they are to be meaningful. They should be neither vague nor mystifying. Our human rights are simply all the rights laid out in Articles 40 to 44 of the Constitution, in any jurisprudence which flows from that and the human rights in all of the UN and European conventions to which we, as a country, have subscribed. There is no mystery, no obscurity. Our human rights are spelled out for us in black and white. They are not optional. They have the force of law, both our law and international law.

We must never accept that there is anything conditional about human rights. If they only apply to those who keep within the confines of what we find personally acceptable and we insist on that, then we have, in that decision, denied the most fundamental principle of all, namely: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights". Human rights must be universal. Being in favour of human rights for all can often result in a criticism being levelled at those same human rights — that they somehow give rights to people who are "undeserving". After the recent riots in England, there was discussion in many newspapers about not letting human rights get in the way of charging and convicting alleged rioters. However, if we do not uphold the human rights of everybody equally, and in accordance with the law, we put at risk all human rights. This does not mean those who step outside norms of behaviour must not face the consequences of their actions. Rather, it provides a framework of protection for all in how such consequences are pursued.

Linking with Members of the Oireachtas is a key part of the work of the Irish Human Rights Commission. Human rights have to be at the heart of the work of any parliament. Parliaments are not only a fundamental pillar of democracy but have the possibility to play an active role in human rights protection and demonstrate a country's commitment to human rights. Parliaments across the world have a wide range of powers to directly ensure the protection of human rights. These include the rights Members avail of every day — the right to put questions to Ministers and Government officials, to request written reports and documents, to hold public hearings with statutory bodies and civil society organisations, the right to undertake field visits, especially to prisons and detention centres, and to ensure follow-up to the recommendations made by human rights bodies nationally and internationally.

In the Oireachtas, the role of committees is particularly important. In the Irish Human Rights Commission, I have previously recommended the establishment of a human rights committee that would undertake inquiries on human rights issues, consider Government Bills which have significant human rights implications and consider action taken by the Government to deal with judgments of the European Court of Human Rights. Such a committee could potentially be important for legislators in regard to situations where Irish legislation is deemed incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights Act. It is unfortunate that we do not have a full human rights committee such as exists in other parliaments around the world, with probably the best model being that of the British Parliament. Nevertheless, all committees of the Oireachtas should take human rights into account in their work. Human rights cut across almost every issue the Oireachtas deals with and it is essential that human rights are not confined to being merely matters for a justice or foreign affairs committee.

I take this opportunity to encourage Senators to ensure that there be more debates on important human rights issues in this House. For example, Ireland will come under scrutiny on 6 October at the United Nations Human Rights Council. This is a ground-breaking occasion, and will be the first consideration by the council of Ireland's entire human rights record. It is an important opportunity for Ireland to demonstrate clearly its commitment to human rights and fundamental freedoms. As many other bodies in civil society have done, the Irish Human Rights Commission has contributed a report to this council concerning its audit of our human rights position and record and those things that need to be done or changed. The commission made 35 recommendations for areas in need of improvement. They included such matters as: the need for a national action plan on human rights; the need for a strong human rights infrastructure — which is a very topical and relevant issue at this time; and a call for ratification of key UN treaties. It is not acceptable that this country has yet to ratify the Convention on the Rights of Migrant Workers or to ratify in full the first convention of the 21st century, the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities. We also advocated the need for the following: protection of those most vulnerable in the economic crisis; the need to reform the justice and penal systems in certain areas, especially concerning conditions in prisons; the need for stronger protections against racial discrimination and in the situation of Travellers; and the need for reform of the immigration and asylum system.

An Oireachtas debate on this issue and Oireachtas follow-up to the recommendations that the UN Human Rights Council will make are vital to the integrity of this process. In no way should Parliament be absent from this process and this House should take a lead role in ensuring this does not happen. Senators have the ability and the knowledge to make a real contribution and the House has a standing which would make that possible. More broadly, the Oireachtas also has a key role to play in supporting the Irish Human Rights Commission. The IHRC has repeatedly called to be directly linked to the Oireachtas, rather than to a Department. By that, I mean we should be answerable to the Houses of the Oireachtas for everything we do. This call has been echoed by international organisations and by civil society. Such a link would not only be in keeping with international best practice but would also acknowledge that human rights impact on all areas of law, policy and practice in Ireland and not, as I noted, merely as issues within the justice sector. Linking the IHRC directly to the Oireachtas would allow for more direct engagement with the work of the commission and would express Ireland's ongoing commitment to the promotion and protection of human rights.

It is foreseen, or at least it has been indicated, that the merged Irish human rights and equality commission would be linked to an Oireachtas committee and I greatly look forward to this. I expect the support of the House when the legislation comes before it.

Engagement should be a two-way process. The commission can support parliamentarians in their work. One of the primary functions of the commission is making recommendations on the compliance of legislation with international human rights standards and the human rights standards contained in the Constitution. The commission publicises and disseminates all its recommendations, including to the Oireachtas. We have seen our recommendations cited in Oireachtas debates and representatives have appeared on many occasions before Oireachtas committees. We encourage Oireachtas Members to continue to actively use our recommendations when there are debates on pieces of legislation with human rights aspects. We welcome hearing from any Member of the Oireachtas if we can provide information or guidance on an issue, and we hope that Members will encourage the referring of legislation to the commission for our comments.

I also encourage Members to monitor the follow-up and implementation of commission recommendations. I would welcome a regularly scheduled debate on the commission's annual report, which is laid before the Houses each year. I say a particular word of thanks to many Members in the Seanad who supported the Irish Human Rights Commission during some very difficult times in the past few years. I do not like praising a person behind his back but Senator David Norris was a particular supporter of the commission during some very difficult times in the past few years. He and many other Members took a dispassionate and supportive view of what Governments proposed.

As I well know, being a Senator is an ever learning process. One must master issues on an almost universal scale — economic, fiscal, social, cultural, local — and in the midst of all this it is essential that all parliamentarians have a good understanding of human rights. The commission is always willing to help in that regard.

The commission is committed to promoting human rights among civil and public servants, which is an important issue. These are the people who have at the primary level responsibility for the implementation of human rights and the upholding of human rights standards. We see this as key to ensuring the long-term sustainable creation of a human rights based society. Since April 2010, we have been running a project, with philanthropic support, to provide human rights education and training directly to the public service. As part of this project, we published a guide on human rights for the civil and public service, with 5,000 copies distributed to date. There is one in every Garda station and it has also been taken up by county councils in many parts of the country.

We have been rolling out direct human rights training for civil and public servants. In so doing we have been stressing the practical benefits to the civil and public service of engagement with this training, including through minimising legal risk. We are heartened by the positive attitude of many Departments and State services to engaging with human rights training, and we look forward to working in partnership on a wider scale with the civil and public service.

As an example I will mention our engagement with An Garda Síochána. In the early stages of my time as president of the commission I tended to preach to gardaí and very often I had good reason to. Gardaí were certainly lagging behind what was happening in Northern Ireland, where the Patten commission was undertaking a major structural root and branch reform of policing, with human rights at its heart. I made a few harsh comments about the Garda. There was a change and I found that within An Garda Síochána there was a large appetite for a human rights-based approach to police training, driven by some of the middle rank gardaí with the support of the leadership. I realised that working with people in partnership was a far more effective way of bringing about change in attitudes and in public service training and structures. In some ways, that is a great credit to An Garda Síochána while also being a model for us in working with the public sector. That is what I mean by engagement with the public service in human rights training.

I will conclude my observations on human rights by referring to one great and largely untapped source of help for both the Parliament and the Irish Human Rights Commission, namely, the existence here of a committed, dynamic and skilful civil society, many of whose members are represented in the Visitors Gallery. In the Irish Human Rights Commission we greatly value not just the friendship and support of civil society but the insights, expertise and perspectives its members so generously offer. I am delighted to see representatives of so many groups here today. Just as they help us in our work as an ongoing source of inspiration to us, so too can they be of enormous help creating a new dimension in the work of this House. They are a valuable resource waiting to give so generously of their expertise. It is an element the commission or this House will ignore to great loss.

I will turn to a subject close to my heart, namely, the current position of the House. Some of my happiest and most fulfilling hours were spent in this Chamber and in the work of the House. Many of the friendships made on all sides of the House during my years were enduring and enriching. This is a difficult time for all associated with the House and there can be no doubt that the Seanad has, to an extent, lost its way and, I suspect, much of its confidence over the past few decades. It has perhaps become too easy a target.

The current problems are attributable to no single cause. All institutions grow old and stagnate if not constantly renewed and critically reassessed. Over the years the Seanad did little of either. We can, if we wish, blame for this the complacency of too many Members, the absence for too long of any genuine will to reform or the comfort of living in a cocoon. All of us who served in earlier times must share this responsibility.

It takes two to tango and efforts at reform, and there were some, were met by a wall of indifference from successive Governments. No Government in my experience took the Seanad seriously. There were no votes in Seanad reform and no pressure to change. If Governments thought about the Seanad — they did not do so very much — they saw it as existing to facilitate government, not to be an independent source of influence or to add value to political life. It was not hostility but indifference, which in many ways is worse. In fairness, voices were raised and 11 different reports urging change appeared over the years. The report of the committee chaired by then Senator Mary O'Rourke in 2004 was a serious and honest attempt to carve out a distinctive role for a modern Senate. Sadly, and to my mind inexplicably, that report was not seriously acted upon. It was a crucial mistake and made the case for abolition that much easier to make.

That report also made clear that the problems of the House were rooted in its founding philosophy as much as, or even more than, the culpability of successive Members. If the House will indulge me a moment in history I will try to make that point. It is essentially a tale of two Senates. The Free State Senate of 1922 had clarity both as to what it should do and who its Members should be. The simple view of the day was that legislation should never be rushed, that it should be carefully and expertly scrutinised and that was the Senate's job. There was also the view that the post-revolutionary Dáil might well be lacking in business or other expertise and this Senate could well provide some of that. The third and most crucial element was reconciliation and reassurance; the Protestant and Unionist community were told that they were part of the new nation and had a major role to play.

The Seanad met, and met handsomely, all of these requirements. It took its job seriously and took its scrutiny so seriously that it frequently annoyed Ministers who resented having to spend so much time defending their legislation. Their observations were usually wise and often ahead of their time.

In terms of its composition, it was not just a pale shadow of the other House, it was radically different. The former Unionists were very well represented. Names like Jameson and Guinness, the Countess of Desart, the Earls of Mayo and Granard, Sir John Keane and the McGillacuddy of the Reeks sat side by side with Mrs. Tom Clarke, widow of the executed 1916 leader, Tom Clarke, and Joseph Connolly, the first Senator to hold ministerial office and, of course, the presence of William Butler Yeats and Oliver St. John Gogarty — a formidable and diverse membership.

However - and this remains the root of the problem about the new 1937 Seanad - there was neither ambition nor clarity in its conception. Mr. de Valera famously said "a bad Senate was better than no Senate" and sadly that is what happened. The Seanad Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform, of which Mary O'Rourke was chairman, did not put a tooth in it when it addressed the problems. It made two key observations: "The Seanad has no distinctive role in the Irish political system" and "Its arcane and outdated system of nomination and election diminishes Senators' political legitimacy". That was a brave report and these two observations go to the heart of the matter with two key questions which must feature in any reform proposals. What is the Seanad to do — how does it make a valuable contribution to the political life of the country and who should be in it — and how should they get there?

These are the questions Senators, as Members of this House, must wrestle with as referendum day approaches. It is a great responsibility and a huge challenge. I urge Members to bear one key issue in mind — the Irish people are fair-minded. They do not like being told what to do. They are indifferent, not hostile to this House and if they see a House united in its determination in showing it has a real and relevant contribution to make, determined to give value, then I believe anything is possible.

I believe a good case can be made. There is much that is good in the traditions of this House. This House has produced some outstanding Senators who did change and enhance public life. In my own time there was Mary Robinson and Catherine McGuinness, courageous and far-sighted reformers; John A. Murphy and Joe O'Toole, both fearless and iconoclastic; Ken Whitaker and Maurice Hayes, probably the two finest public servants in the history of the State; Seamus Mallon, one of the bravest men I have ever met; and the late Eoin Ryan and Jim Dooge, superb legislators; and perhaps the most memorable of all, the late Gordon Wilson, who stood for generosity and forgiveness. He did this even after the killing of his daughter and especially in the worst days of the Troubles. This is just a small list of truly outstanding people who served in this House — all of whom made a real difference. They set a standard, a benchmark of which any assembly could be proud.

This House today is different to any in which I served. When I look around today and at the performance of the House so far I see vitality and a sense of commitment which makes me envious. In a way I wish I were part of it. There is an energy here which if harnessed and focused, and focus is all important, could be highly persuasive in the public debate which will follow. There is diversity. There is the beginning of real diversity here, a beginning, only a beginning, but a genuine beginning. In welcoming diversity I am not undervaluing the key role of our political parties. I am a believer in the centrality of parties in our politics. Without distinctive coherent parties there would be chaos. We need them to give us coherent choice and the leadership to deliver change. There is no conflict between diversity and a coherent party system.

As one who had the honour to be Leader of this House I am conscious of the changes already begun under the leadership of Senator Maurice Cummins. I am particularly struck by the new public consultation procedure. I believe it has enormous potential to add a new dimension to the work of Parliament which has not been tried before. The House should do it its own way.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Dr. Maurice Manning

I am conscious that the reform is only the beginning but it has been made early in the life of Parliament. There is no shortage of good ideas. It is not my role to elaborate here today on what Senators could and should do, that is their job. It is their opportunity to be imaginative and resolute in effecting change, always remembering that their core role is as unchanged today as it was in 1922 scrutinising and improving legislation, and doing so in one interest only — that of the people of Ireland.

If any lesson is to be learned from our ongoing national crisis it is that the absence or the failure of scrutiny was at the heart of so much that went wrong. I am not just referring to scrutiny of legislation or regulation but the failure to see the bigger picture, failure to stand back from the helter of events to ask some fundamental and probing questions. Just as all our major institutions were found wanting, so too were these Houses. It must never happen again, and this House with its capacity for reflection, its capacity at times to be prophetic, and its potential to forge direct links with the diversity of civil society, has the potential to ensure this does not happen again.

The people are fair-minded. There is no ingrained hostility to this House. The case is theirs to make. They have the ability and the material to make a good case. A Chathaoirligh, I wish you well in doing this and I thank you for the privilege of inviting me here today.

I thank Dr. Manning.

Cuirim fáilte roimh Dr. Manning go dtí an Teach inniu. I served with Dr. Manning in the House previously and he was one of the most articulate and finest minds with whom it was my privilege to serve in this House. He has obviously brought that great capacity to the current important position he holds. As one who was criticised for claiming that many branches of the NGOs had hitched their wagons to the human rights and equality wagon, sometimes, perhaps, without a great foundation of reason, I thought I should start by going back to the foundation of our modern human rights, to which Dr. Manning referred, that is, the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948. It set up a commission, one of the first acts of the UN, to draft this document. Article 16 acknowledges the equality between women and men and also the duties of society and the State to protect family, the natural and fundamental group unit of society, based on marriage between men and women. It goes on to say that it founds human rights in an anthropology of the human person. Dr. Manning quoted the first part which states "All human beings are born free and equally in dignity and rights". They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. Key drafters sought to recognise an objective foundation for human rights based on the universality of human nature. It is interesting that they also say the rights are correlative with duties. We often hear reports about our rights and campaigning for rights but which place insufficient emphasis on our correlative obligations and responsibilities. Duties to others and the community as a whole are recognised implicitly in Article 1 and explicitly in the preamble to paragraph 5 and Article 29. These were not originally intended to be binding, but they have become so.

Article 23 of the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states the natural family based on marriage shall be protected by society and the state. As far as I am aware, none of the NGOs made reference to this protection in their submissions to the United Nations, although I stand to be corrected. Yesterday evening I watched a BBC television programme on which a Jewish rabbi interviewed Dr. Robert D. Putnam from Harvard University about the values embodied in faith and religion and increasing the connection between family and community. Dr. Putnam argued that strong families and communities were important components of our human rights fabric. Maurice Glasman from London Metropolitan University spoke about how the breakdown of traditional families was leading to dysfunction in society, alienation, loneliness and a particular emphasis on the elderly.

Recently I attended a conference at which a paper was read by Matthew Fforde, a Welshman who had conducted a case study of post-modernity in Britain and the changes that had taken place since the war, which he classified as de-culturalisation, de-Christianisation and de-socialisation. I recommend the book he has written on de-socialisation. Although it is a heavy tome to read, it contains a significant amount of challenging and thought provoking material. He referred to isolation and alienation and noted that 7 million people, or every man, woman and child on the island of Ireland plus 1 million, lived alone in Britain. He spoke about the effect this had had on mental health and in other areas. It is important that we reflect on this issue. I will raise a number of questions pertaining to it.

There are certain fundamental rights, including the right to life, freedom and education. I have always believed people have the right to employment because it is part of the dignity of the human person to use one's own talents and energy to provide for oneself and one's family. The right to shelter is also well recognised in these Houses. The most fundamental right of all is the right to life because without it all other rights are immaterial. It is interesting that Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights states:

Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction for a crime for which this penalty is provided by law.

I am of the school of thought that regards life as inviolate. In this regard, I commend to Dr. Manning a short article by Professor William Reville of UCC which deals with the continuum of life from conception to natural death. Any interruption along the path obliterates the remainder of that life.

I come to the questions I wish to put to Dr. Manning. What is the process of embracing ideas that purport to develop human rights and what research or qualitative study does it involve? I ask this question because when I took a particular stand on the issue of civil partnership, I felt obliged to conduct research into its effects on the family. Hundreds of reports have been produced on this subject, particularly on the position in the United States. To what extent have the common good and the societal impact or likely consequences been balanced against individual rights in reaching conclusions? Should all human life be inviolate?

I welcome Dr. Manning. His comments on the 1922 Seanad and the potential future of the Chamber will give Senators hope. The 1922 Seanad appeared to include human rights as part of its core identity and its Members included people who embraced and promoted human rights.

The people are well briefed on human rights and have practised as well as preached them throughout the world. People from Ireland have been politically involved in the United States and other countries. John F. Kennedy reached the pinnacle of the political system in the United States and Irish people and their descendents have been involved in securing and promoting human rights in many other countries. Thousands of priests, brothers, nuns and lay people have travelled to the most deprived parts of the globe to assist the most unfortunate and disadvantaged of people to achieve decent human rights and access to food and medicines. The Irish tradition of human rights is very positive.

The Irish Human Rights Commission came into being as a result of the clear mandate from the people on the Good Friday Agreement. Its greatest achievement is its relationship with its sister body in the North. The Government of the day and the main Opposition parties deserve credit for establishing and properly funding the commission. The then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, should be commended for appointing Dr. Manning, even though he did not come from the political traditions of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats. He had the qualities needed to progress human rights in this country and in the past ten years he has made submissions and observations on more than 40 Bills as they passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas. The commission has also entered into more than 3,000 legal communications on various issues relating to human rights.

The most important work done by the commission, however, is in its advocacy on behalf of ordinary people who contact it about human rights violations. Many of its reports stem from the myriad complaints received. I note, in particular, the work it has done on behalf of intellectually disabled people in County Galway. Last May it launched a report on the involvement of religion in education which stemmed from numerous complaints by non-believers who felt badly treated by the education system. Its assessment of the Magdalene laundries played an integral part in the ensuing investigations. However, while it has achieved a lot, there is much more to be done.

I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Manning that the language of human rights can sometimes sound elitist. Human rights should be all-embracing and the language used should be simple and easy to understand. A person who is homeless outside the gates of Leinster House should understand his or her human rights as clearly as a freshman in Trinity College or a debater in the Literary and Historical Society in UCD. Human rights should transcend all genders and circumstances. As a society, we have a responsibility in this respect. It cannot all be done by the Government; we must change attitudes. I hope the constitutional convention which is imminent will lead a national conversation on human rights and attitudes in society. A serious difficulty in this country is presented by the "not in my back yard" attitude. We must realise that respecting human rights is not easy and that sometimes it means one must make difficult decisions. I recall when the Irish Human Rights Commission issued a report on rendition flights landing at Shannon Airport. It was not easy to do at the time but it was the right thing to do, as the evidence has shown.

I wish to make a few brief points. The Equality Authority is being merged with the Irish Human Rights Commission. That synergy will be to the common good and the good of the country. It will drive the agenda of equality and human rights. Having one organisation operating on behalf of all those dealing with issues of equality and human rights is probably the way to proceed.

The Irish Human Rights Commission has achieved serious recognition abroad. It is highly regarded in the European Union and at the United Nations. The foundations have been laid and an exceptionally impressive organisation will emerge.

Dr. Manning always practised the concept of equality and is the right person to drive forward this project. I sat before him for three years when he was an academics lecturer in UCD and he does not just pay lip service to the concept, he practises it. He practised it long before he became president of the Irish Human Rights Commission. I say this from experience.

He made a good job of the Senator.

I welcome Dr. Manning back to the Seanad in his capacity as president of the Irish Human Rights Commission. I enjoyed his address, as I am sure did all Members, as shown by the response he received. It is an auspicious time for him to come to the Seanad to speak to us on human rights, given that in a week's time, next Thursday, 6 October, we will see the periodic review of Ireland's human rights record before the United Nations. I am grateful, as I am sure are colleagues, to the many civil society groups represented in the Visitors Gallery today which made submissions to the United Nations as part of the review process and which sent copies of their submissions to us. In particular, I found very useful the submission of a collective of civil society stakeholders under the title, "Your Rights. Right Now", provided by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

Before speaking about some of the human rights issues raised in the submissions, I pay tribute to Dr. Manning because, as he and Senator Conway said, "human rights speak" can sometimes be impenetrable or difficult to follow, but Dr. Manning has always made it accessible. I have always thought that one of his key achievements as president of the Irish Human Rights Commission has been to make the language of human rights accessible and understandable. Some of the points he has made about the future protection of human rights in this jurisdiction are extremely important. His reference to the body which will emerge as a result of the merger of the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority and the idea that it will be made accountable to the Oireachtas rather than the Government is hugely important; it is something we in the Seanad must try to drive.

Dr. Manning's insightful comments on the role of the Seanad give us food for thought. This Seanad is a much more dynamic and vibrant institution than the previous Seanad, to which I had the privilege of being elected. The omens are good in that regard.

On human rights issues, there are four key issues which I see as being critical in the periodic review and on which I would welcome Dr. Manning's response. Part of the Seanad reform procedure we have instituted not only involves addresses by persons such as Dr. Manning but also provides for greater engagement with civic society through public consultation. Having questions and answers and more direct responses in this Seanad is important. On the four key issues that emerge from many of the submissions made and on which the periodic review is likely to be critical, what are the specific issues on which Dr. Manning believes Ireland may be found to be at fault?

The first of these issues is children's rights which comes through as a key issue in many of the submissions made to the United Nations. The overriding concept of holding a referendum on children's rights and its timing will, no doubt, be brought up. It is a priority for the Government and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, in particular. There are other issues around the lack of a universal child benefit payment for the children of asylum seekers who are not habitually resident here. This issue has been raised by a number of groups such as the Free Legal Advice Centres. The rights of children of asylum seekers living in direct provision accommodation have also been raised by AkiDwA. Equality of access to education for children has been raised from a number of perspectives by the Irish Traveller Movement, GLEN, the Irish Refugee Council and others. The Irish Human Rights Commission has referred to the need for equality of access to education for children of all religions and ethnicities and the right of access to education for children with special needs and disabilities. I suspect this may be an issue which will come up in the period review. Has Dr. Manning a view on what is likely to be the most pressing concern for the United Nations?

On the issue of prison conditions and penal reform, the Irish Penal Reform Trust has made a strong submission that the impact of overcrowding on prisoners constitutes a serious health and human rights issue. There are other issues around slopping out and the imprisonment of children, including the continued detention of children in St. Patrick's Institution, that might well be raised. The lack of an independent complaints mechanism for prisoners, for child prisoners in particular, is also a pressing issue.

On women's rights, there are issues around the representation of women, an issue on which I have been very active and to which the Government is committed to addressing through the electoral amendment legislation, the heads of which the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, has published. This may be something that will be seen as positive in the periodic review. However, the report issued today by Safe Ireland showing the appalling numbers of women seeking assistance in domestic violence cases highlights the need for greater resources for domestic violence shelters and refuges. This may be a point of critique in the period review.

I raise the issue of women's reproductive rights, an issue which has been raised in the civil society stakeholder report entitled, "Your Rights. Right Now". Recommendation No. 12 points to the need for the repeal of the Offences Against the Person Act which criminalises the provision of abortion services. Legislation is also recommended to implement the decision in the X case. As many will be aware, Ireland has been subject to a series of criticisms from international bodies such as the UN body which monitors the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and the convention against torture. Ireland has been subject to a number of criticisms about our restrictive abortion laws. Only last year in the ABC v. Ireland case the European Court of Human Rights found Ireland to be in breach of the convention in respect of an overly restrictive law on abortion and owing to a lack of clarity where a woman’s life was threatened by the continuance of her pregnancy. Will Dr. Manning say whether this will be an issue in the UN periodic review and on which Ireland could be seen to be at fault? The programme for Government has committed us to taking certain actions on foot of the ABC v. Ireland case, namely, the establishment of an expert group which will have to be done without delay.

I thank Dr. Manning for a thought provoking and insightful address to us, not only on the subject of human rights protections but also on the future of this House and, more broadly, the reform of our governance system to ensure greater protection for human rights in a reformed Oireachtas. We will all be taking on board the comments he made.

Dr. Manning asked us two questions about ourselves on Seanad reform. The first was what should the Seanad do? This is what we should be doing, namely, engaging in debate on human rights with a leader such as Dr. Manning. The other question was who should be in the Seanad? It is a great privilege to be here and engaging in debate. My hope is that members of the public in the Visitors Gallery, or others whom they represent, will some day have this privilege and that the diversity about which Dr. Manning spoke will be increased.

It is a great personal pleasure to welcome Dr. Manning to the Chamber. As one who was privileged to be a founding member of the Irish Human Rights Commission and to work with Dr. Manning for almost a decade, I acknowledge his leadership, particularly with reference to the ways in which he has facilitated the forging of the commission's independence as it worked to protect and promote human rights. At our various plenary and committee meetings he encouraged our efforts to debate issues with respect for our differences, intellectual rigour and empathy for those whose rights were not being adequately protected or promoted. Respect, intellectual rigour and empathy are prime ingredients for talk about human rights that translates into more dignity and freedom for more people.

The quality of empathy is particularly significant for our deliberations on human rights because it is the human capacity to touch the emotions or feelings of others — sometimes those others are very different from ourselves — that allows us to understand better what is the right thing to do. I am reminded, and also haunted, by the words of one of our great poets, Eavan Boland, in her poem "Outside History". She begins it with the words: "There are outsiders, always." and concludes:

How slowly they die

as we kneel beside them, whisper in their ear.

And we are too late. We are always too late.

As Members are aware and as Dr. Manning has indicated, Ireland's record on human rights will be under peer review by the United Nations next week. While it is true, as the Government will argue, that Ireland has built up a strong legal machinery to protect and promote human rights, there are significant gaps in the protections. There are many people residing in this country who live outside history because our protections are not strong enough. As many other Senators have said, we have received communications from several civil society organisations, representing the interests of women, various groups of minorities, prisoners, children, older people, workers, disabled people, Travellers and those without adequate social and economic resources, outlining how these people are denied their full human rights across a number of areas.

In some cases those rights are being denied because lawmakers have failed to engage with controversial issues, such as the meaning of family, family issues and women's reproductive rights — issues that are not clear-cut even with reference to international standards of human rights. In other cases they are denied under the guise of insufficient resources. For whom are there insufficient resources? Are they those who are like us or are they those who live outside history? In other cases these rights are denied because whereas we may have the laws to protect rights, we failed to put in place the budgets to implement them. As one of the organisations, Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, has said, it is just as important to honour international duties in the area of human rights as it is under the EU-IMF agreement.

As lawmakers, it is imperative for us to prioritise ways to honour our human rights obligations, especially in this time of recession. This is a time that is bringing to light many ethical failures, not least greed, abuse of power and the betrayal of trust. To move forward and build a new Ireland we must utilise, as Dr. Manning has encouraged us to do, the advocacy and knowledge resources of our civil society organisations, the national human rights institution and the Equality Authority. These bodies provide us not only with critical legal analysis but they also offer us opportunities for empathic justice. We have the responsibility to inform ourselves of the records and narratives of the lives whose dreams have been broken, whose trust has been betrayed and whose lives have become undignified because our laws are not changing or are not changing fast enough.

Our visitors in the Visitors Gallery and our distinguished speaker, Dr. Manning, work in organisations that provide us with these narratives, which alert us and jolt our imagination and give us access to emotions of shame, exclusion and fear. People will not forgive us if we do not address the abuses and denials of human rights at this time. As Eleanor Roosevelt, one of the authors of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, once asked: "When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than to avenge it?"

I have a question for my colleague, Dr. Manning. What counsel would he give to Senators to support our scrutiny of the forthcoming Bill that will give effect to the proposed merger of the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority? What should we watch out for to ensure the establishment of this merged body will significantly enhance Ireland's capacity to realise human rights?

Ba bhreá liom fáilte ó chroí a chur roimh ár n-aoi speisialta. Tá céad fáilte romhat, a Mhuiris. Tréaslaím leat agus leis an gcoimisiún as ucht na héachtaí uilig atá ar siúl agaibh.

I welcome Dr. Manning, formerly Senator Manning. Perhaps it is a case of once a Senator, always a Senator. Speaking for Senator Quinn and myself, I should welcome him not just as a former Member of the House but also as the chancellor of the National University of Ireland, NUI. I thank him for his comments about Seanad Éireann. If this House can demonstrate half the capacity for survival that the NUI has shown, it will be doing well.

Dr. Manning made many important points. What resonated were those in which he stressed the need for human rights to be an inclusive rather than exclusive concept. I was particularly glad that he reminded us that human beings are born free and equal in dignity. He also correctly called Members of the Houses to a deeper engagement with the commission in the pursuit of excellence in the protection of human rights across the board in our society.

Dr. Manning will probably not disagree that when it comes to the identification or discernment of the requirements of human rights and their vindication, it is not a one-way street. As elected representatives of the people we will sometimes have things to say to Dr. Manning and the commission that might be challenging and might invite him to further reflection about the directions we must take as a society on particular issues. In suggesting that the learning is a two-way street, I am hopeful for a synergy and positive co-operation even when, at times, there will be deep differences of opinion about issues of profound importance. We have heard excellent contributions today from people whose values and fundamental conception of human rights differ, and sometimes in ways that are truly life and death. I hope we can have that dialogue and that Members of the Oireachtas will take seriously the need to be reflective legislators at all times, particularly where fundamental human rights are concerned.

Dr. Manning correctly pointed to the sources of our knowledge and our human rights law as the Constitution, various international agreements and, indeed, jurisprudence both in this country and abroad. However, that is not to say there are not other issues. We must identify and protect human rights in a way that is harmonious, that is, one person's rights must always be vindicated in a way that is harmonious with another person's enjoyment of their rights. We can think of issues in health care where that would be a particularly important concept. Sometimes, too, we will have to consider where legitimate issues of welfare end and human rights become identifiable. There are goods that we seek to identify, promote and protect in our society which might not be categorisable as human rights but which are goods nonetheless and which we would all agree we should pursue. Some of those goods are indeed human rights; they are identifiable across time and space as being always applicable, regardless of the society in which one lives.

However, we must be honest as well and agree that the content of human rights is not always unproblematic. I was delighted that Dr. Manning mentioned that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity. When we think about that and ask why human beings are born free and equal in dignity we have already heard the answer. It is a natural content, as it were, in that by virtue of our humanity certain rights inhere in us. If certain rights inhere in us by virtue of our humanity, we cannot honestly say that those human rights appear at birth only and do not exist prior to birth as well. That is why there are two issues on which I want to address Dr. Manning briefly in the time remaining to me, the protection of life and education. In fact, these are two of the three issues that he mentioned at the outset.

I ask Muiris to do what he can to promote what I would call an authentic human rights perspective on the issue of protection of life before birth. That is important, both in terms of his commission's work in Ireland but also in terms of the vision of human rights that we Irish promote on the international stage. When we redefine protection of human life so as to promote, or even to permit, practices that exclude some of humanity, we do not merely do an injustice to those individuals, we damage the concept of human rights and damage the retention of human rights in international mindsets for the longer term. That is where Ireland has so much to contribute by promoting the integrity of human rights. Integrity of human rights is not merely something that the dominant people in the dominant part of the world identify as being desirable in this time and place. Instead, we must always feel called to a deeper identification of truth that is at the heart of human rights.

I note that there are various international agencies and bodies which have sought to criticise Ireland's particular laws around the protection of the unborn. Often they fail to identify certain key facts. They fail, for example, to identify that Ireland has consistently the lowest maternal mortality in the world. They also fail to identify that we are good in this country at identifying the need to protect best medical care for women in pregnancy because our doctors are skilled at seeing that there are two patients whose human rights and dignity must be vindicated.

I suggest to Dr. Manning that we in Ireland need to identify education according to particular values of faith or philosophy as being a right to be enjoyed by families for their children as taxpayers in harmony and in concert with the right of people who want a different kind of education. We also need to identify the right to have that education provided for as well, and the State will have a particular role in that regard. If I were to utter a small word of criticism, I would say that in the Irish Human Rights Commission's document there was insufficient definition of terms such as "indoctrination" and "proselytism". On the concept of bringing children through an education system in a way that is harmonious with the religious values of parents who are also taxpayers, we would need to be careful not to denigrate that as indoctrination and proselytism, but rather to recognise that an authentic human rights approach to education is one that will recognise plurality based on parental choice, and with considerable and substantial State support to ensure different choices in our society are respected.

Tréaslaím leis an Uasal Manning arís agus guím gach rath ar a chuid oibre.

I warmly welcome Dr. Manning to the House. I am a newly elected Senator and I was not around when he was a Member of this House, but I have heard him speak on a number of occasions, including only last week on the tenth anniversary of the Irish Human Rights Commission, at which he gave an excellent speech. I am deeply conscious of the role that he, who is a humble person, his staff and all those in the commission play in the area of human rights and in ensuring the Government lives up to its obligations under human rights instruments. That is critical.

I will deal with the potential merger and some fears I might have in that regard. The impression has been created, sometimes by those in government but also by a largely compliant media, and generally in the western world while applying to Ireland, that we do not have to worry about human rights or civil rights because we live in the free world and in a civilised world where human rights are not issues that we must grapple and deal with and, by and large, people's rights are protected. That is not the reality. There are many breaches of people's civil rights and human rights in the free world, including in this country.

Previous speakers mentioned the wealth of civic organisations and individuals who are pioneers and advocates in the field of human rights and civil rights and who lobby us week in, week out. Every time we draft legislation, and we are elected to these Houses to discuss legislation, there are groups to give us a helping hand. We had it on the Criminal Justice (Female Genital Mutilation) Bill 2011, previously proposed by Senator Bacik and restored to the Order Paper, and we had organisations representing vulnerable women which assisted us in ensuring the legislation we passed was rights-based in order that we were living up to our responsibilities. I could give countless other examples.

The question was asked about what the Seanad should do. I would ask the same of the entire political system. When we mention reform of the Seanad, we must put it in the context of reform of the entire political system, including the Dáil. I would like to see, especially for civic society, better opportunities for those organisations to which I have referred to play more of a role in decision making. Perhaps that could be done through the Oireachtas committees and is a role that we could examine.

Essentially, what we should do is act. The responsibility of politicians is to vindicate the rights of citizens. We are failing many citizens in this country in some of the areas which have been mentioned such as health, education, access to services and employment. There are some patients in the State who, unfortunately, are forced to lie on hospital trolleys. People with money can buy favourable access to health treatment while people from disadvantaged backgrounds must wait on long waiting lists. People who are geographically disadvantaged because they happen to live in a certain part of Ireland must travel for cancer treatment. These are basic denials of a person's right to health services. There have been countless cases where parents have had to take the State to court to get the education their children deserve as a birthright. These are the issues politicians need to deal with. We cannot simply talk about human rights or civil rights. We must vindicate those rights, and in a republic, that is what the political system and public representatives are there to do.

On the merger, I will have to wait and see what exactly is proposed. I am concerned we could confuse and diminish the opportunity for a merged organisation to hold us all properly to account and ensure human rights, civil rights and equality, all of which are important, are given the precedence and importance they need. I would have that concern in the context of any merger. I note that the Irish Human Rights Commission is stretched for resources and that could diminish the scope for Dr. Manning and his organisation to hold law makers and decision makers properly to account.

The conflict in the North and civil rights were mentioned in the context of the formation of the commission. If that conflict teaches us anything, it is that a failure to vindicate civil rights is a failure of politics itself. That is the lesson we all must learn. We, as politicians, must ensure we vindicate those rights. One of the matters contained in the Good Friday Agreement that we voted for and which we still have not put in place is an all-Ireland bill of rights. I would like to see a discussion about what is meant by human rights and civil rights and what should be vindicated, and for that to be placed on a constitutional footing, which would then compel the Government to ensure the rights of all citizens in this republic are vindicated.

Does Dr. Manning wish to respond to the spokespersons because there are a further 20 questions from Senators?

I will hear everyone else first.

I remind Senators that questioners have one minute each.

I feel very emotional hearing Dr. Manning speak today. During the summer I had a little clarity and a good think about the opportunity we all have as elected representatives to this House. It is objectionable that this House is treated as a nursery and a nursing home, and I do not mean that in an offensive way to anyone. With the greatest respect to all my colleagues, this is a House in which we are supposed to speak about national issues. I am all for speaking about where one lives and where one is from, and I would be the first to do so, but we are elected to this House, first and foremost, to be national politicians and to raise national issues.

It is such a relief to hear what Dr. Manning said earlier. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me in that I did not quite understand what it was all about. I do not have a question as such, except to ask whether Dr. Manning would be there as an ear for us if we need some advice to try to keep this place alive.

I draw attention to the case of Mr. Denis Donaldson. A joint commission report has already been issued by both the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission calling for an inquest under Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights into the murder of Mr. Denis Donaldson in County Donegal in 2006. Mr. Donaldson's family have made calls to both commissions, focused particularly on the questions facing the agencies which recruited and handled Mr. Donaldson as an informer. Does Dr. Manning agree that unless the inquest into Mr. Donaldson's murder is compliant with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the relevant PSNI special branch personnel and many others will not be obliged to assist the coroner's inquest, nor will they be obliged to hand over all documents, electronic or otherwise, that they possess in regard to Mr. Donaldson's murder?

The legislation governing inquests in this part of the island is totally out of step with the system in the North of Ireland. This inquest will, of course, be held in Donegal, where Mr. Donaldson was murdered, under the standards demanded by the European Court of Human Rights. Therefore, will Dr. Manning join me in calling for this legislative inequality to be urgently corrected by the Government in order that our coroner's court would have the power to compel disclosure of information from state agencies in any part of Ireland where it touches on the death of an Irish citizen?

I thank Dr. Manning for his inspiring lectures to me when I took my degree in economics and politics at night in UCD. He continues to be an inspiration.

I welcome Dr. Manning. I wish to address a specific issue. Dr. Manning may be aware that the most recent assessment of housing need indicated there were 98,000 households in Ireland in housing need, which does not include households facing repossession. Does Dr. Manning support the inclusion of a right to adequate housing in the Constitution? Within that context, would he see the constitutional convention as an opportunity to examine the inclusion of such a right and for it to be given subsequent legislative effect?

Does he favour including the right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of socio-economic status, in other words, to extend the existing equality legislation to include such a right? As an example, there are now 100,000 households in this country receiving rent supplement. I am aware there is significant discrimination against people receiving rent supplement, purely on the source of that income rather than on their capacity to pay.

I thank Dr. Manning for a very informative and enlightening address. I am strongly committed to the promotion and protection of human rights in Ireland, particularly children's rights. I note that today is the 19th anniversary of Ireland's ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child — I am calling it national children's day.

I wish to focus on commending all the national NGOs, civil society organisations and relevant stakeholders for their contributions to the UPR process. I would particularly like to congratulate the UPR cross-sectoral steering group for its innovative and inclusive national consultation process, which I believe is the model of best practice for NGO consultation and could be shared with others, particularly developing countries, after the report. I note also the act of engagement by the Department of Justice and Equality.

I ask Dr. Manning the value of establishing a Department of Justice and Equality NGO standing committee, akin to the Department of Foreign Affairs NGO standing committee which was established in 1997, in order to provide a formal framework for a regular exchange of views between the Department and the NGO-civil society community on the follow-up and implementation of the UPR recommendations in Ireland in the next four years.

Every day, colleagues raise the issue of human rights but, strangely, this seems to be more on an international rather than a national basis. For example, the situation in Palestine is raised regularly by colleagues in the House.

I wish to raise a specific issue. We have gone through ten years of a Celtic tiger period where there was an abundance of funds in the country. The one issue I am very disappointed about is the implementation of the Barcelona Declaration, which was intended to make life easier for people with disabilities. While the funding was made available, I believe it was badly spent. In a time of massive wealth within the country, it was an issue that was not grasped and dealt with. It was a missed opportunity for people with disabilities that the Barcelona Declaration was not taken on board by the authorities, including local authorities. What is Dr. Manning's view on this question?

I welcome Dr. Manning. While I did not have the pleasure to serve with him, I have got to know him over several years. With regard to some of the greats he mentioned, I shared an office with Dr. Maurice Hayes for some years. Certainly, when one considers the contribution made by such people, it certainly also shows the contribution this House has made, albeit in its flawed state. These Houses have tried to follow the recommendations of Dr. Manning's organisation and its great work. However, the situation is still closer to George Orwell's definition of equality, where some people are more equal than others. I am interested in Dr. Manning's view on an all-Ireland bill of rights and how these Houses might seize the opportunity to work towards that.

On the issue of the Seanad specifically, and Dr. Manning made a very interesting address, does he agree that the problem with the Seanad in his own time and at this time is not with Senators but with the leadership of the political establishment's decision to ensure that the position is rigged in favour of the lobby to have it abolished? In my nine years here — it is appropriate this would come from somebody on this side of the House — Senator Cummins is the best Leader of the Seanad we have had for his openness, which I am sure cannot be easy at times within the Whip system of the hierarchy of his party. This has ensured that people like Dr. Manning can address the House. How best can we ensure that society joins the lobby to allow Senators reform themselves in the way each of us here and Dr. Manning agree is necessary?

Ba mhaith liom fíor fáilte a chur roimh Dr. Manning anseo ar an lá tábhachtach seo agus ar an díospóireacht thábhachtach seo. Ba mhaith liom fíor fáilte a chur roimh na daoine in the Visitors Gallery. I want to welcome them and the various organisations they represent.

I have only a short time in which to pose a question to Dr. Manning on this very important day, the tenth anniversary of the foundation of the organisation following the Good Friday Agreement. I want to put on record that the constitutional review group recommended the formation of the organisation.

My question concerns Dr. Manning's strategic goal No. 6, which is to strengthen the organisational capacity to carry out his mandate. While his organisation's mandate under Articles 40 to 44 of the Constitution is well outlined, how does he envisage the House helping him? Although no money is available, he mentioned the fact we do not have a committee particular to his needs, which is one route we should consider.

I congratulate the Leader for organising the opening up of the House today and for ensuring that human rights was its priority for this first term. I ask that Dr. Manning outline how we could help ensure his strategic goal No. 6 is achieved. We in this House can learn from his organisation. I congratulate the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach on appointing one of the members of the commission, Senator Zappone, to this House, which shows human rights is taken seriously in every way. As legislators, we have to ensure, when speaking on human rights, that we have respect for difference and value inclusiveness and diversity in all our debates and legislation.

I welcome Dr. Manning back to the House and thank him for attending today. I thank him for his helpfulness as leader of the Opposition when, as Minister of State, I sat in the seat he now occupies and legislation passed through the House in a timely fashion. I also thank him for his endorsement of the excellent O'Rourke report and convey her thanks to him for that contribution which I hope will be included in her book. It was a wise decision by the then Minister, Michael McDowell; the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and the Government of the day to appoint Dr. Manning to the position of president of the Irish Human Rights Commission. The appointment was warmly welcomed and he has acquitted himself very well.

I welcome the representatives of the 33 non-governmental organisations who are present and thank Senator van Turnhout for ensuring their presence, as they play an important role. It is a great opportunity for Members to meet them and I hope there will be other opportunities for them to return. They represent an excellent list of non-governmental organisations and I commend the work they do.

I will put one question on behalf of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. I must declare an interest in this regard as it is my nominating body to this House. It seeks affiliation to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as an affiliate organisation. A formal application has been made in this regard, but it was vetoed by a previous Minister for Justice and Equality. Incidentally, I do not expect a reply from the president today——

Perhaps the Senator might put the question to him.

Will the president of the Irish Human Rights Commission consider the application made by the AGSI for affiliate membership of the ICTU on a human rights basis, that is, its right as a representative body of Garda sergeants and inspectors?

I thank Dr. Manning for making such an excellent speech, his point on the Garda Síochána and work with the force on human rights issues. He has made a very important statement.

It is an absolute privilege for Members to have in the House the president of the Irish Human Rights Commission, Dr. Manning, who has provided them with a sense of both their history and their future. In so doing he has reawakened in me a sense of the value of this House, for which I thank him. He spoke about his openness to be accountable on the issue of human rights to both the Department and the Houses of the Oireachtas. Another thing that struck me greatly was his observation that if any single factor had led us to our current position, it was the failure of scrutiny.

We must scrutinise our rights. The Education Act states children have a right to an appropriate education and a right to have their needs met but with the caveat, "in so far as resources allow". I commend Dr. Manning's work with the John Paul Centre in Galway but ask him whether, for rights as basic as those of children with special educational needs or people with disabilities, rights should be capped by the caveat, "in so far as resources allow"? Is it right that rights are recognised only in so far as the mindset of a Government endorses them or in so far as budgets allow? I note the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act has been in place since 2004 but it has still not been fully implemented, despite the Celtic tiger years. Can Dr. Manning call a Government to account because these rights were not enforced when the money was available? Should we approach the IMF and the European Union to follow through for those who are marginalised?

I welcome Dr. Manning and thank him for an inspirational address. Ireland's current health strategy is more than ten years old and does not contain an explicit right to health, as highlighted by the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. The current system of health care in Ireland is based on a two-tier public-private model of insurance, thus denying equality of access to health care. The National Disability Authority and the National Women's Council of Ireland are among a number of groups which have found that discrimination in access to and the availability of health care disproportionately affects vulnerable groups in society. Ireland's stakeholder report to the forthcoming universal periodic review entitled, "Your Rights. Right Now.", recommends that Ireland develop "a comprehensive Health Strategy for the delivery of appropriate and adequate healthcare with particular emphasis on vulnerable groups in [our] society". I take the opportunity to emphasise the desirability of in-home care for many children, as well as the cost-efficient nature of this method of access to health care. I note the fourth title of the European Charter of Fundamental Human Rights covers access to health care. Dr. Manning highlighted this charter in a recent newspaper article referring to a number of human rights instruments. I ask him to explain the charter's importance as a guide for lawmakers and policymakers.

I welcome Dr. Manning and thank him for his most interesting address and, in particular, his robust and intellectual defence of Seanad Éireann. It poses a challenge to us all, not least to those who believe there is a simplistic, sloganeering way of dealing with one House of the Oireachtas while not reforming the political system in general.

Dr. Manning has mentioned the issue of language and how the language of human rights sometimes can be misinterpreted or abused. I read recently a most interesting article by the Chief Rabbi in Britain, Dr. Sacks, in which he stated:

There are times when human rights become human wrongs. This happens when rights become more than a defence of human dignity, which is their proper sphere, and become instead a political ideology, relentlessly tramping down everything in their path.

Dr. Manning should comment on this observation as one sometimes hears about the human rights industry. He has spoken about the language used. There is a difficulty in this regard. He should indicate his views on Dr. Sacks's comments because language is important.

I also welcome Dr. Manning. While I was unable to attend, I was able to observe his contribution and presentation on the monitor and was highly impressed by it. I commend him for the work he is doing and note that it is a source of no small pride for Members that Senator Zappone is a member of the commission and that her contribution was also very affecting.

The submissions Members have received have proved the Leader of the House was being proactive when he initiated this debate. Members have received some interesting contributions from various agencies and the debate has been a catalyst for educating them in this regard. In particular, I was interested in the submission made by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. The trade union movement has always been positive and committed to human rights. Will Dr. Manning comment on what is considered the equivalent level of support for human rights in IBEC, employment and other interest groups? Do they share the same zeal for human rights displayed by the ICTU and other trade unions? He should comment on this issue.

In common with Senator Leyden and the Leader of the House, I was nominated by a group in which gardaí were involved. It is important that the Garda representative associations should be, as part of their human rights, associated with the ICTU.

This morning on the Order of Business I raised a matter relating to the rights of gardaí. Defence Forces members who are on duty overseas are entitled to a postal vote in national elections, but the same entitlement is not available to members of the Garda Síochána serving overseas. This is a fundamental flaw and a human rights issue. I do not expect Dr. Manning to have solved it before the presidential election, but it is a point he might take on board.

I welcome Dr. Manning and thank him for his contribution. Moreover, I welcome all the organisations represented today. They have made a very valuable contribution during the years and long may this continue. In my previous role in the European Parliament I had the privilege of serving on the Joint Committee on foreign affairs, as well as its Sub-committee on Human Rights for two years. It was a highly influential committee from the perspective of allowing issues to be raised. There is an opportunity for this House to use a similar procedure to highlight issues that require a public airing.

One issue I wish to raise pertains to prison reform and the lack of progress made during the years. One of the jobs I had a number of years ago was to visit Cork Prison on Christmas Day. It was an eye-opener to see the sense of hopelessness of people who do not see a future. We have done little to change the system. Prison vans return to prisons from courts late in the evening. Prisoners are released late in the evening with no place to go. It is an issue we have not tackled. We have made little progress on education in prison. While there has been some reform, the level of reform we need has not been dealt with and is an issue we must tackle.

The Garda was mentioned. The progress we have made is interesting. A person who worked with me as a research assistant in Brussels is now based in Ramallah in Palestine and recently brought some members of its police force to Ireland to see the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and set up a similar system in that region. What we do here influences what happens in other countries and it is interesting to note how we can use our influence.

It is a privilege as a young Senator to hear Dr. Manning today. I found the sense of truth he brought to the Seanad very invigorating, in the past and present, and the truth is at the core of what he does. I am retiring from DCU today at 3 p.m. to remain in the Seanad, it is to be hoped for the next four or five years. I remind Senator Mullen that DCU could offer the Seanad an urgency, urbanity, youthfulness and way forward in the midst of Ballymun, which it has done for the past 22 years.

The Irish Human Rights Commission, in its report of 2010 and assessment of human rights issues arising from the Magdalene laundries, declined to conduct an inquiry into the treatment of women and girls in those institutions. It published 12 conclusions and recommended, rightly so, that the State set up a statutory inquiry to examine serious human rights issues and provide redress for the survivors. The State decided to establish an interdepartmental committee of inquiry whose terms of reference are narrower than the report. Can Dr. Manning outline the advantages of a statutory, as opposed to a non-statutory, inquiry? Is the commission satisfied with the route the Government has chosen to deal with the Magdalene laundries?

I welcome Dr. Manning to the House. As all Senators have made great contributions, I will be brief. I want to speak for one sector of society, namely, carers. They have been fighting for their rights for years. What they offer to society is amazing. We should not ask what they cost the State, rather we should ask what they save the State. A carers strategy should be implemented as soon as possible to address their rights. I would like to hear Dr. Manning's opinion on what carers do for society.

I thank Dr. Manning for his address. It has been a good opportunity for Senators to raise a wide range of different human rights issues. I would like to hear his view on an important issue in the education system, namely, the role education has in promoting understanding and respect between children of different faiths and cultures. Over the past ten to 15 years an increasing number of children have come to Ireland from all over the world, which has been incredibly positive. When one visits schools one sees flags from all over the world. Different national days are celebrated and children have a level of understanding of other faiths, languages and cultures that, even though I am not very old, I did not have when I was in school when everyone had the same local background. That has been possible because, while the majority of our primary schools have a religious patron, they have increasingly accepted children of all faiths and none and adapted to make them feel at home. There is an obvious need for more diversity.

We need to reform the current system to respect the desires of parents who do not want their children to go to a school with a strong emphasis on one particular faith. At an early stage in his new job the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, said he wanted to see up to half of schools move away from Catholic patronage. There is a risk that we will end up with a situation we have luckily avoided so far, namely, religious segregation where Catholic children go to one school and others to another. Such a situation would create social problems which our education system has helped us to avoid in recent years.

One way we can overcome that is through the community national school model the previous Government piloted. Children of all faiths and none are educated in one school. If churches want to send someone to the schools to teach children about a particular faith they can, but other children can follow a mixed secular curriculum.

Dr. Manning has an understanding of how other countries have dealt with this issue. I would like to hear his views on whether choice and diversity need to be accommodated by Catholic, Protestant and Muslim children attending different schools or are best accommodated in one environment where children learn about and have respect for each other that will, it is to be hoped, prevent the social problems we have seen in other jurisdictions where segregated education has caused other difficulties.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an dochtúir go dtí an Teach agus gabhaim buíochas leis as ucht an aithisc a thug sé dúinn a bhí an-eolach ar fad.

Dr. Manning's presence is a direct response to Seanad reform. I commend my fellow Senators, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, the Leader of the House and Dr. Manning. The debate we are having is a learning process.

As a new Senator I do not claim to know everything. Being in the presence of members of civic society, in particular those involved in human rights, is an important learning curve for me. I welcome Rosie McDonagh who ran in the Seanad election and is present.

I echo a question asked by Senators Bacik and Burke on prison conditions. The Irish Penal Reform Trust reports that Ireland's prison population has doubled since 1997 and overcrowding has contributed to an increase in violence between prisoners. Ireland's Civil Society Stakeholder UPR report, Your Rights. Right Now, which was mentioned, recommends the development of alternatives to custody for the punishment of minor offences and immediate steps to tackle the problem of overcrowding. It also recommends the provision of adequate sanitary facilities in all prisons, including in-cell sanitation, to ensure the end of the inhuman and degrading practice of slopping out. As president of the Irish Human Rights Commission, Dr. Manning has called for a voluntary commitment from Government on these issues in advance of the UPR. The abolition of the practice of slopping out has been on the agenda of Governments since 1993, yet little progress has been made. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, at a recent Irish Penal Reform Trust lecture, highlighted the need for human rights principles in prison policy. What does Dr. Manning think a human rights-based approach to prison policy would look like and is it achievable?

I welcome Dr. Manning. It is great to see a man from my constituency here. His reputation, as a former Senator and in his current job, goes before him. I would like to hear his view on UN sanctions against countries and the effects they have. Such sanctions have been imposed on Iran, Iraq and Libya. They seem to affect marginalised and poorer people more than the hierarchy. Can they be modified to ensure medical care can reach those people? They can cause immense suffering.

That concludes all the questions to be asked. I am sure Dr. Manning feels as if he is back taking the Order of Business in the House.

Dr. Maurice Manning

Yes, I felt I was being wafted back in time. The only difference between me, as Leader of the House, and Senator Cummins is that I had a working majority of minus five in those days. Therefore, it was great fun and the Government listened to us a little, but for all the wrong reasons.

I thank everybody for the very warm welcome I got here and the very kind things said about me, I appreciate them all very much. I also appreciate the tributes that have been rightly paid to the work of the commissioners and staff of the Irish Human Rights Commission. It is a great affirmation of our work that we were given this opportunity to speak today on major human rights themes. A great number of questions were asked. I will try to answer specific ones and broadly indicate some other areas.

Senator Walsh raised many philosophical questions with which I am not sure I would be able to wrestle. However, I assure him that when I next see him in Wexford we can discuss those issues, as I am sure he will accept.

Senator Bacik raised some very fundamental issues. Much of what she raised is contained in the reports of the civil society groups and the Irish Human Rights Commission. Those views are very clearly spelled out regarding the universal periodic review. I would not have time nor am I sufficiently prepared to go into all of them now. I will just say two things. First, the universal periodic review will represent a big test for the Government and the Department of Justice and Equality. In previous UN appearances Ireland tended to be defensive about its record and its representatives were there to refute points made rather than to show a way forward. I believe there is a great deal that is positive in our human rights record and I hope the Government will engage in this way and use the occasion to come back determined to raise our observations and so forth rather than keeping them where they are.

One issue that was raised, away from which I do not want to shy, relates to the rights of the unborn. When I was first elected to this House in 1981 that issue was just beginning to take off. The early 1980s were some of the most bitter, nasty and dirty days in Irish politics when this issue was being addressed. Anybody who lived through that time will not want to go back again. However, it is an issue upon which as a society we do not seem to be able to get agreement. Sincere and very fundamentally different views were argued on both sides of the House today. While we can probably never bring finality to the matter, it is time we tried to at least get some sort of national clarity. I believe the proposed constitutional convention represents the opportunity for that. It is a constitutional issue and there will be time there to try to find some sort of agreement. It simply may not be possible to get agreement but at least the matter should be argued within a proper calm setting. I am sure the Senator would agree it should be debated in the House. Today's contributions on the subject were very strong and interesting.

Senator Bacik and a number of other Senators raised the issue of human rights in prisons. The question of what is wrong in prisons is well analysed. We blew the opportunity we had in the Celtic tiger years to provide some of the accommodation that is needed and it will be a long haul back to that. I am very encouraged by two things. The first is having a very serious inspector of prisons, who takes his job very seriously. He visits prisons at unorthodox hours and is his own man in this regard. In all he has written he has attempted to apply international human rights standards to all his observations. I am also very impressed with the work of the Irish Penal Reform Trust, where there is genuine debate. In his slightly long speech in Blackhall Place on a Friday evening at a time when most of us would prefer to be elsewhere, the Minister demonstrated a very clear engagement with the issues. The issue is well analysed and we know what needs to be done.

I very much appreciated Senator Mullen's contribution. Most of the questions he raised would find their place within the constitutional convention. It is not that they should not be debated here, but we should try to find some national understanding at the constitutional convention.

I am very grateful to Senator Cullinane for his very supportive words on the merger. He raised the question of the charter of rights. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Irish Human Rights Commission produced a document some months ago on what should be the key elements of a charter of rights for the whole island of Ireland. There were great problems in getting agreement, but we did so and my opposite number, Professor Monica McWilliams, saw it as one of her priorities before she retired to produce the basis for a charter of rights. While there are many human rights topics this House could usefully debate, that is a very obvious one.

Senator Zappone also raised the merger. In my speech last week in the presence of the Taoiseach, I spelled out what I regard as the key principles for any new merged body, including genuine independence, accountability to the Oireachtas and proper resources. There were approximately six key principles. When the Bill comes before the House we will be looking for Senators' vigilance. Very often the devil is in the detail with such legislation. We would welcome the support of all parties in the House to try to get the strongest possible human rights and equality infrastructure. Both are different but vital and each must have breathing space in the new structure.

I agree with everything that Senator White said about Denis Donaldson and as I have told her before, we acted on that basis. I believe there is an urgent need to reform the law on inquests. The Senator has very legitimate questions that need to be answered and action needs to be taken. I support her fully in what she said.

Senator Hayden has a great record in the housing area. It is a difficult matter and in some ways the constitutional convention might be the place for these issues. However, the commission would be very happy to meet her to discuss the issue and see if we can make progress.

Senator Leyden spoke about the Garda Síochána and trade union membership with regard to the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. We would be very happy to engage with the Garda on the issue. Our only job would be to establish if there is a human rights basis for trade union rights for police and we would be more than happy to meet the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors.

Many other questions were raised and I hope I am not being discourteous. Senator O'Brien raised rights regarding health. Senator Healy Eames will be very interested in this matter. The commission did much work in the Pope John Paul II Centre in Galway on the rights of young people with disabilities. We produced a report that outlined what the HSE needs to do if it is to ensure the rights of young people with disabilities. While it has been pretty positive in its response, it is a slow process and it will engage. On the bigger question, we have only just begun to talk to HIQA, which is very enthusiastic. There are a number of priority issues for the new merged body. We did not have the resources to do as much as we would have liked, but we spent a great deal of time considering the issue of disabilities, especially the work of Professor Gerry Quinn. I would see it as a priority for the new body — I do not know if I will be around to influence it——

Dr. Maurice Manning

One never knows.

I was asked if I would urge the Department of Justice and Law Reform to have a standing committee for NGOs. The answer is yes, but I would not hold my breath. It would be a very good idea because the Department is not great at listening. It would do it good to have open and frank dialogue with various outside bodies. The security of the State would not be threatened if that were to happen.

Senator Bradford spoke about the use of language. The model I would hold is that of George Orwell. He was wonderful in detecting the sort of speak that told lies or obscured the truth. The language used by everybody involved in human rights should be crystal clear. This should be the case as far as possible, although there may be difficulties with nuances. One should try to communicate with the most vulnerable persons. Alice Leahy, a member of the Irish Human Rights Commission, is a founder of Trust and works daily with the most bruised people. She constantly upbraids us because our language is not clear enough, and she is right. It is a standard to which we should all aspire to achieving.

Senator Moloney spoke about carers. The last commission tried to do some work on a charter for carers, but it did not achieve it. I agree with everything the Senator said on the issue.

Senator Power raised the question of integration, on which we have done much work. Our document was fed into the forum where it set some of the standards. I agree with the Senator. I live beside a national school attended by children of 17 nationalities. National teachers are the unsung heroes because of the work they have done to integrate pupils.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Dr. Maurice Manning

They have done this in an unfussy, happy and joyous way. I see the kids playing every day as if there were no racial barriers.

That is the way it should be.

Dr. Maurice Manning

It is.

We wanted a statutory inquiry to be held on the Magdalene laundries. However, we were also conscious that many of those involved were very old and tired. That is one of the things that struck me very much in recent times about many of the leading individuals in the disability movement. They have been fighting for a decade and when they attend meetings, I can see they are almost exhausted. Things have not happened. I also felt this about many of the survivors of the Magdalene laundries, that they were tired. If the process offered by the Government could advance their case, we would support it. we have great confidence in Senator McAleese as the person to lead that process. We have already worked with him. We have been at one of the hearings and I was impressed. We have to bide our time. However, I would like to see a resolution and if this process achieves it, that will be it.

Senator Healy Eames spoke about progressive realisation, a very interesting concept. In the Irish Human Rights Commission we had great difficulty in figuring out how to make economic and social rights a reality. What are they and how do they operate in practice? We were very happy to join Community Action Network and the Dolphin House project in looking at a situation which should never have arisen. We asked ourselves if the economic and social rights of the people concerned had been breached by the way they had been treated by successive authorities during the years. After a public inquiry organised by them, with expert witnesses, we came to the view that their rights had been breached. I am sure Senator Hayden will have many such instances to offer in which the reality can be checked against abstract international standards. How do we realise the progressive realisation of these rights? I am very conscious of what Senator Healy Eames said in that regard.

I thank Members sincerely for inviting me and giving me a very warm welcome. I hope this House can be a harbinger for change.

I call on the Leas-Chathaoirleach to propose a vote of thanks to Dr. Manning.

I propose a vote of thanks to Dr. Manning and briefly remind him of the vagaries of the political system. On 1 February 1993 we were on the same panel — the difficult Cultural and Educational Panel — and although I was 23 votes ahead of him, because of the game of Russian roulette involved in the inside and outside system, I chose the wrong path. I wished him luck and think that for the first time that night, either publicly or privately, he praised de Valera.

Dr. Maurice Manning

That is absolutely right.

In order to help me late at night, given that I had lost the election and was heading back to west Cork with my tail between my legs, with a small Paddy he toasted the strength of de Valera and his inside and outside system.

Leaving all that aside, the Irish Human Rights Commission is privileged to have somebody of the calibre of Dr. Manning as its president. He has great integrity. He is a person for whom I have had great admiration dating back to before we served in the Seanad together. He displayed his impartiality when serving as a Senator and afterwards. He has the ability to rise above local and national political considerations and is doing an excellent job. The best toast I can make to him today is that the commission is honoured and privileged to have somebody of his calibre at the helm.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I second the vote of thanks to Dr. Manning who has made a thought-provoking and inspiring address. He has certainly posed many challenges for us, not only in the area of human rights, but also on the issue of the future of this House. In his ten years as president of the Irish Human Rights Commission, he has carried out his duties in an exemplary manner and continues to do so. It is only right and fitting that we in this House debate the contents of the reports of the commission and the later periodic reviews. We will certainly facilitate a debate on these subjects.

The aim of the House and its Members is to make it more relevant through the promotion of real change and reform. Unfortunately, the press does not cover the proceedings of the House in any meaningful way, with the exception of one reporter, Mr. Jimmy Walsh. It does not cover debates such as today's in a meaningful way. Each day we sit in the House we hear excellent contributions on a wide range of issues by many Senators which receive very little coverage in the media. However, that is a matter for another day and something we will have to address.

I again join the Cathaoirleach and the Leas-Chathaoirleach in thanking Dr. Manning for coming. He has made an excellent address which I am sure will inform us in our deliberations in the future.

Sitting suspended at 1.50 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
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