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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 2012

Vol. 213 No. 14

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 — Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 3 p.m. and conclude not later than 4.30 p.m., if not previously concluded. Private Members' Business is No. 17, motion No. 8, to be taken at 5 p.m. and conclude not later than 7 p.m.

Following the Order of Business, there will be expressions of sympathy on the death of former Fianna Fáil Senator Michael Doherty.

We welcome the Government's decision, following the advice of the Attorney General, to hold a referendum. My party will strongly support a "Yes" vote in the referendum and I do not want there to be any doubt about that. I have said it in this Chamber time and time again. This is a serious matter for the country. There are differences of opinion and there are provisions we would rather were in the treaty but which are not, such as addressing the ECB's role within the European Union. The progressive pro-European parties in the Oireachtas have an opportunity in the coming weeks to work closely together on this in the interests of the country.

I am worried that "No" posters were erected last night without a discussion having even started or the text of the referendum being published. This is not the way politics should work. The Taoiseach held a meeting with our party leader on this yesterday. My party had a meeting about this more than four weeks ago and we made a decision to support a "Yes" vote in a referendum, if it was called. We will examine the text and we will bring different elements to the debate. In the next few weeks, the Seanad can play an important role in providing information. We are ahead of the curve with regard to planning our own debate on the treaty. There will be dissenting voices but they have to be honest in the debate and stick to what the referendum is about and not the other issues about which all of us are concerned and have policy differences. That is what politics is about. There are issues on which my party will not agree with the Government and there are issues with which Sinn Féin will not agree, and that happened the last time.

We must consider the common good. The treaty does not go far enough but it is a step forward and, in the next few weeks, we have an opportunity to discuss further with our European partners how we can progress the role of the ECB and reduce the democratic deficit. Will the Leader keep an eye on the publication of the text of the constitutional amendment? The Government will get full support from this side of the House when it is introduced——

Not necessarily.

Sorry, from my party.

Senator O'Brien to continue, without interruption.

He cannot speak for me.

I would not dream of it.

I propose that when the text is ready we should have an early debate on it. The Leader will get the support of the Fianna Fáil Members to alter the business of the House at that time to ensure we deal with this speedily. I believe we will also have a role in the coming weeks as it should not be just one debate.

I previously raised the matter of ComReg proposing to fine An Post €11.9 million for apparently not meeting service level agreements on next day delivery. It is absolute insanity that a State regulator will fine a State company almost €12 million. The Leader gave a commitment that he would bring this to the attention of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Has he received an update on it? I believe the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has also raised concerns about it.

I would welcome a very early debate on the European referendum. There is no doubt whatsoever that my party will be actively campaigning for a "Yes" vote in that referendum.

Given that it is 29 February I wish to make a few proposals to the Leader. He will be reassured and comforted to know that none of them contains an offer of marriage.

Like Senator O'Brien, I welcome the EU referendum. It will clear the air on this issue once and for all. I and the Labour Party will vigorously support a "Yes" vote. To think that one can be half in and half out of the euro is akin to the concept of being sort of pregnant. It is just not possible. This is not about the Nice or Lisbon treaties, but about Ireland, our communities and our children, many of whom have been forced to emigrate. People might not like to hear this but I firmly believe that if Jack Lynch had not brought us into the then EEC in 1973, this country would still be a backwater. No road in this country has been built without EU money. It is about time we woke up and accepted that reality. In addition, there would be no PayPal or Intel in this country, because Ireland is the bridgehead for Europe for many of these American multinationals. People are sadly mistaken if they think they can have it both ways, with the bread buttered on both sides. I am already aware that Sinn Féin opposes this referendum. It is against everything.

The European Union is getting money out of us, hand over fist.

Senator Whelan to continue, without interruption.

It has all its printing done already.

The "No" posters are apparently already up. It had to use the rest of the ink. I suppose it had to be put to some use. I am glad to hear Senator O'Brien state that Fianna Fáil is united in favour of this referendum. To be fair, there was some equivocation and doubt about that because the party's deputy leader had created some anxiety in that regard.

There is no doubt that we will be supporting the referendum.

I am glad Fianna Fáil will campaign vigorously for the referendum.

I am also a staunch supporter of the household charge. Again, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot have strong local government, strong local authorities and strong local services and, on the other hand, say one opposes the household charge. Those who oppose that charge are reckless and irresponsible. One of the key issues in Laois-Offaly during the general election campaign was the local fire brigade service, properly so. People were concerned about the closure of small rural fire stations. The fact is, however, that the household charge will go towards the upkeep of such services. I appeal to those who are opposing the household charge for selfish ends to think again. It is ridiculous, and it is putting local government at risk.

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is an eminently sensible and pragmatic man. The household charge is not being embraced due to misinformation and confusion. The leaflets are a fiasco. We must involve people and make the method of payment easier for people who want to pay. It must be more user friendly and accessible. I ask the Leader to call on the Minister to involve An Post in this process. There are 1,100 post offices throughout the country and they are well placed, and I understand well disposed, to facilitating people who wish to pay this charge but do not have the opportunity to do so.

With regard to the campaign for the new fiscal treaty, the treaty will impose considerable austerity for generations to come. We will undoubtedly be in a vice. This is tying us in; it is bullying from Germany. That country is at it again. The entire system is rotten and should be pulled down. This Government is collaborating. It has appointed Goldman Sachs as advisers for floating some of the European bonds. This is an organisation that was criminally complicit in cooking the books for Greece. That is the mess we are in.

Taxes have caused every revolution. Unfair taxes caused the French and American revolutions. Believe me, they will cause a revolution in Europe, or they should. Once again, the people are not being considered. It is a system. It is exactly what happened with the Famine. Centralised authorities have imposed unjust economic theories and worked them out in practice on the living flesh of the people of Europe. In the case of the Famine, it was the people of this country. I am 100% against it. At last, thank God, one little country is being allowed to have a referendum. Look at what happened to Greece when it sought a referendum. Its Government was kicked out by centralised Europe. Thank God for Ireland. It can speak for the people of the rest of Europe and demand democracy back from our masters in Berlin, who are at it again. They are bullying. As I pointed out yesterday in the foreign affairs committee to their Minister for propaganda, they are also rearming. This time, however, they are not arming themselves but Israel, with a new submarine being built in Kiel.

Is this about conscription now as well?

I appeal to the House to balance this.

The Senator should be ashamed of himself.

We have an international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights. This will protect the homeless, the people who are now wandering the streets looking for somewhere to live. What about them in all this economic theory? We signed this international covenant but as we have not signed the protocol that was agreed in 2008, there is no method of enforcement. If we are serious about the welfare of our citizens, I ask the Leader to plead with the Government to sign this protocol.

I will be more subdued than other Members this morning. The issue I wish to raise is the fuel costs with which businesses and families are being hit. People have referred to the household charge, septic tank charge and other charges. However, the charge that is affecting the daily lives of families and businesses throughout this country is the cost of fuel. An inordinate percentage of the cost of fuel is due to Government taxes. Every time the price of fuel is increased the price of milk and the price of a sliced pan also increase, due to the knock-on increased ancillary costs of production as a result of higher fuel costs. There are also the costs for families for home heating oil and for travelling to work. Families are being hit every day and they have no way out. Will the Leader arrange a debate on the cost of fuel and the inordinate percentage of Government taxes on fuel in this country?

I welcome the referendum, although it might be for a different reason from the reasons others might have. I welcome it because, if passed, it will enshrine a debt brake in the Constitution for this and future Governments. For too long we have seen expenditure of public moneys, and indeed promised expenditure by both Government and Opposition parties, with the sole purpose in many instances of gaining political advantage rather than for the genuine benefit of this country. Once we enshrine in the Constitution that borrowing must be kept to very strict and disciplined limits, it will be good for this country.

We now have a flavour of how this debate might progress. Anybody who claims that Ireland can speak for the rest of Europe is living in cloud cuckoo land. We should conduct this debate, regardless of whether one is for or against the referendum proposal, on the basis of what is in the best interests of the Irish people, many of whom are currently in great difficulty and suffering socially, psychologically and financially. That is our duty. We should not use this referendum purely for what we perceive to be political gain. I would be asking everyone to be responsible in this debate. I would like to think that the Government will make every effort prior to the referendum to ensure that there is some amelioration of the sovereign debt levels, particularly the promissory notes, and also the interest rate levels. That should be done to ensure that we get a positive result in this country. People must see that the path we are taking will lead to some sort of resolution of their difficulties and that it will not be a continuous round of austerity for at least a decade. There is an onus on all of us, working together in the interests of this country, to ensure that what is put to the people is done in an attractive way.

We should be wary of persons from outside this country who have a great deal of money to spend influencing policy making in this country. There is a children's group which was told that €1.5 million from external sources would be ploughed into a referendum here. I do not want to see our referendum contaminated by anybody with his or her own personal external agenda. This should be done on the basis of us debating it openly and honestly in the interests of the people and, hopefully, persuading that the correct decision will be made, particularly in the interests of the younger generation to whom we have a real responsibility.

I welcome the referendum as a moment which is good for Irish democracy. This really is an iconic moment in our times which will define our future with Europe. We need to be careful about how we debate and the language we use around this referendum. Undoubtedly, in the period running up to the referendum there will be uncertainty in the markets, and internationally, about the state of Ireland and any hyperbole or misinformation put out, in this House or in the other Chamber, will feed into that and cause greater uncertainty. I appeal to people to make their arguments for or against this treaty — I will be robustly making the argument in favour of it — but let us keep the debate factual and honest. Senator Darragh O'Brien referred to the "No" group already putting up their posters. Last night on public radio prominent Sinn Féin spokespersons stated that there are no implications in the European stability mechanism for a "No" vote, which is factually wrong. I will not make the argument here for or against the treaty — I will do that when we have a debate here — but I appeal for proper, factual and responsible comment.

On a lighter note, I took a look through some of the international comment in this morning's media. I note a prominent photograph of our colleague, Senator Byrne, in the Financial Times which surely will go a long way towards steadying the nerves of even the flakiest investor.

We sent over our best man.

Absolutely. I commend Senator Darragh O'Brien's responsible and reasonable position on this. Let us keep the debate honest, factual and reasonable.

I find myself having to offer some support for Sinn Féin here this morning. We ought to reject any suggestion that the party would endanger Ireland's commercial interests by opposing the referendum on the fiscal compact. Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Adams have already shown that their commitment to Ireland Inc. is sure and that they are acting in our best interests.

I would defend the putting up of posters at this stage by Sinn Féin or any other group. I must disagree with my friend, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on this. There can be nothing wrong with people getting their arguments in early.

Informed arguments.

I welcome the Taoiseach's decision to hold a referendum on this issue. This is one area where we know what is at stake and what is involved, and it is entirely legitimate for people to put up posters advocating a "Yes" or "No" vote at this stage.

We must certainly comply with legalities but in terms of advocating a "Yes" or "No" vote, the people know what the issues are. This is about strengthening, and tying us into, commitments that we have already made. We will face stringent rules in the future around deficits and debt. The decision that the people must make is whether this is in our best interests, whether, by being seen to tie ourselves into this agreement — one must remember our say so is not required for this treaty to go ahead — we will act to reassure markets in the future that we are a safe bet when it comes to lending, and whether it will strengthen our voice when we seek concessions on issues such as the promissory notes. Senator Walsh is correct. It is Ireland's best interests that must drive this debate, not persons on either side trying to gain political leverage for themselves on other issues, certainly not a protest of the Government nor, indeed, a tribal vote in support of the Government. Ireland's best interests must be the test as persons decide how they will vote on this issue.

Like most of the other Senators who have spoken, I welcome the referendum. The debate should be on the referendum, not what we would like to see discussed about Europe. Education, as Senators Darragh O'Brien and Walsh called for, in telling the people exactly what is in the treaty, is most important. There was a survey published today where a professor asked those surveyed what interest rate they were paying on their mortgage, what interest rate they were paying on their credit card and what was the rate of inflation, and I noted the percentage of people who needed education about that. Putting something into the Constitution is a serious issue and we, as elected representatives, must ensure that we give it proper debate rather than score political points and give the facts rather than what we would like to debate, for which, I hope, we will have another day.

In Europe, this is rare diseases day to give a voice to the voiceless. According to the organisation GRDO, there are 250,000 people who suffer from different rare diseases. It is difficult for them to get access to proper care and there is no access to a clear pathway for medical attention. A survey by the organisation GRDO demonstrated that one in seven had waited more than ten years for a diagnosis of their condition and 37% had received a wrong diagnosis. We must do something about that. According to that survey, 60% stated that they got their information from the Internet. All the organisation is looking for is, not a main national body or organisation, but a sub-office in the Department of Health where anybody suffering with a rare disease can have a clear pathway to acknowledge that he or she will be looked at early in their disease because preventive medicine saves the country money. I ask the Minister for Health to look at establishing an office — or a person at whom the buck stops — which the organisation or the persons affected can ring up to ask the avenue they should go down. It would reduce the time spent shunting patients between one doctor and the other and, most important, would lead to a better outcome for those suffering from the disease. When one considers our population, 250,000 people is no small number.

Fáiltímid roimh an chinneadh a thóg an tArd-Aighne agus tréaslaímid léi as an seasamh neamhspleách a thóg sí agus as an chomhairle a chuir sí ar an Rialtas maidir leis an reifreann. We welcome the forthcoming referendum on the EU treaty and we welcome the full and frank debate that there will be around it. I also welcome Senator Darragh O'Brien's indication as to where the Fianna Fáil Party stands on it because it certainly appears to contradict what Deputy Ó Cuív stated on Raidió na Gaeltachta not an hour ago. It is good to have clarity in order that we know where we are coming from.

Deputy Ó Cuív will always be clear.

This is a treaty about enshrining austerity for generations to come. It is important to discuss the implications.

(Interruptions).

It is a view in the debate and I am sure Senator Healy Eames will welcome the debate on it.

It will be interesting all right.

It is a debate about our sovereignty. It certainly imposes more stringent mechanisms to control our fiscal policy and it takes the decision making out of our hands. This is about making good decisions for the good of all the people. Let us have the debate. Let us get the wording as soon as possible so that we can see what the issues are.

It is always a great debate in Galway.

My party certainly will not be flying off the handle. We will put forward, as we do, factual, logical and rational arguments.

They were not factual last night on section 25 of the treaty.

We certainly were factual last night.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh to continue, without interruption.

For the information of my esteemed colleague, Senator Whelan, my party is not against everything. He seems to jump to grand generalisations about Sinn Féin policy. We are in favour of a wealth tax, the capping of salaries of senior civil servants, a debt writedown and renegotiating around our fishing and natural resources. There are many things Sinn Féin is in favour of, Senator Whelan--

Not too many of them realistic, though.

Some of those have an impact, when one looks at the impact of this treaty.

Más féidir liom focal gairid a rá, beidh Seachtaine na Gaeilge ag teacht chun cinn an tseachtain seo chugainn. Glacaim leis nach féidir linn lá iomlán Gaeilge a bheith againn sa Teach anseo ar an 7 Márta ach beidh Gaeilge á húsáid sa Dáil agus ar fud na dTithe. Iarraim ar dhaoine más féidir leo níos mó Gaeilge a úsáid ar an 7 Márta le linn díospóireachtaí agus má tá cúnamh ag teastáil ó aon duine, beimid breá sásta sin a thabhairt.

Tá brón orm ach níl an Ghaeilge agam chomh maith agus atá sí ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh. Therefore, I will speak in English. On the referendum, I must be one of the few people who is disappointed we are having a referendum on the fiscal stability pact for the reason that I do not believe the Constitution is the right place to be enshrining these types of measures. The Constitution is primarily there to protect rights and liberties and I would much prefer if we were having a constitutional referendum on the rights of the child rather than fiscal stability. I do not believe it is appropriate. In the 1970s we were talking about John Maynard Keynes, in the 1980s it was Milton Friedman. Times change, as do economic circumstances. I do not believe these types of measures should be enshrined in a constitution. However, the Attorney General has seen otherwise and of course I will be supporting it as I consider these measures are important for the future of the economy.

On a note of caution, I am not happy to hear anti-German sentiment both in this House and outside of it. It is inappropriate. It is not the fault of the German people or some plot on their part that we, Europe, are in the financial position we are in. I do not believe it is helpful to the debate on this issue for the Irish people to be personalising it around the German people.

I ask the Leader to bring in the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and perhaps the Minister for Finance to have an emergency debate on the housing market and the construction sector. Senators may have seen the CSO statistics published yesterday showing that house prices fell last year by almost 20% and in January this year we had one of the sharpest falls ever in house prices. This is a very important issue. For every fall in house prices, Irish people are in greater negative equity and the balance sheet of our banks is in even worse condition than it was before. There is obviously a reason for the continuing fall in prices. There is a lack of confidence in the market but there is also a lack of finance. We are back to mortgage lending in the way we had it in the 1970s.

Those are points that can be made during the debate.

We also have a construction sector that has fallen to 4% of our GDP when closer to 20% was appropriate.

Those are points that can be made during the debate.

This is a very important matter. We need to consider emergency measures to support the construction sector and to put some type of floor under the continuing fall of the housing market.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Minister for Health to come to the House to explain the situation with regard to the national cancer control programme and its relationship to pre-election promises and commentary which has followed since. On 9 February, the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, visited the north west of the country and spoke about the issue concerning cancer services in that area, in particular the commitments made by the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, Senator Susan O'Keeffe, Deputy Tony McLoughlin, the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the Taoiseach himself to assure, first, that cancer services would be restored; second, that they would be restored within 100 days, third, that the Labour Party would ensure a ninth centre of excellence would be located at that location and, fourth, to assure everybody in a live debate which is still available on the Internet that each of those individuals — Deputies Perry and McLoughlin and Senator O'Keeffe — would resign their membership of the Oireachtas if that was not carried through.

To follow on and give some context, on 9 February the Minister, Deputy Reilly, when talking about these issues in Sligo, assured the people of the north west, some 200,000 people, that the door was not closed on this issue. At that specific moment in time, Dr. Susan O'Reilly, the head of the national cancer control programme was giving an interview to irishhealth.com stating: “It’s definitely not going to happen”. To use, neglect and mislead a section of the people of Ireland, some 250,000 people——

On a point of order, when he says "mislead the people", I wonder if Senator MacSharry has forgotten it was his Government that removed these services in the first place.

That is not a point of order. Senator MacSharry to continue, without interruption.

If the new Senator cares to check the record of the House, he will see that the only person whose position on this issue has not changed is me.

That is correct.

To use, neglect and mislead the people of Ireland, or a section of the population, in this way is inexcusable. While the Leader sometimes likes us to raise such issues on the Adjournment, to use and neglect 200,000 lives in this cynical way, just to get votes, is inexcusable and it demands that the Minister would come to the House to clarify why, on the north west station Ocean FM, on the same day the head of the national cancer control programme said it is definitely not going to happen, he was lying to people and telling them the door was not closed.

This is a day to think we are lucky people. The Constitution yet again has given the people the opportunity to have their say on Ireland and its place in Europe, to give leadership on this issue. I believe we should vote "Yes"— vote "Yes" for Ireland, our future and Europe, because what we decide will have an impact on the whole of Europe. We should also use this moment to advance our negotiations on thepromissory notes, the bank debt and the terms of the bailout. This referendum is giving us these opportunities. This is a very good day for Ireland.

This is also a very important day in the lives of almost 8,000 public servants who are retiring today. Some 1,600 of those are teachers. I ask the Leader for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, on the contribution some of those public servants may make in volunteering overseas. I was struck by a presentation from Voluntary Services Overseas, VSO, which told us of the impact that 1,363 teacher trainers from many countries had in Ethiopia last year. The teachers trained will go on to educate some 800,000 children. While it is a day on which our public servants will reflect on their futures, many of them are young and will continue to contribute in this country while some may consider an opportunity to contribute abroad in the developing world.

This day only comes once every four years. It is an important day in many people's lives, including the life of this country. Let us go forward for ourselves, Europe and the world.

I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator MacSharry on a very important issue on which he has been absolutely consistent right through the term of the last Government and this Government. The Senator's credentials in this regard are impeccable.

I compliment the Attorney General, Ms Máire Whelan SC, on her report to the Government, which restores faith in the Attorney General as a very independent person. Anyone who would have questioned that in the past will now know her position has been vindicated.

It is just like An Bord Pleanála.

I know it is a political appointment but, in this case, the Taoiseach said that "on balance" he would decide on a referendum. In this regard, I compliment the Leader of the Opposition on his views and the views expressed by the Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, who said it was not the motivation of the negotiators to ensure that no referendum took place. Those matters have been clarified through the Leader.

The Senator should question some of his own party members.

There is also the question of the German Minister who suggested we set out to avoid a referendum. That being said, I wish the Government every success in its first referendum. It will quickly discover how tough it is to run a referendum campaign. My party had to face the challenge on its own many times.

A Senator

The Fine Gael Party has always given leadership in these matters.

The Labour Party was not in favour of every referendum fought, as the record shows.

Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?

Members opposite will recall that a Deputy left the Fine Gael Party last year over the closure of accident and emergency services at Roscommon County Hospital, as did two of the party's councillors. I am appealing to the Taoiseach to ensure this matter is resolved before the referendum takes place. The accident and emergency unit at Roscommon County Hospital should be reopened, in accordance with the undertaking given——

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

What does it have to do with the referendum?

I will tell the Cathaoirleach why it is relevant.

The Senator is over time.

I would like to have a debate on Roscommon County Hospital, given the original undertaking given by the Taoiseach that he would not allow the accident and emergency unit to close. I am trying to help the Government in this regard, as it will require every vote it can get in the upcoming referendum.

The Senator is way over time. I call Jimmy Senator Harte.

I predict that the people of Roscommon will be reluctant to support the proposal unless the accident and emergency unit is reopened.

Perhaps the Senator might leave his telephone number with the Leader in order that he can pass it on to Chancellor Merkel.

I have called Senator Jimmy Harte.

As I said last week, Fianna Fáil Members are a little like a horse without its jockey in the Grand National — they are still running to the finish line, but no one is taking any notice.

I hope I would beat the Senator in a race.

I am not a betting man.

I am here longer than the Senator.

I acknowledge that.

I was in the Dáil with the Senator's father who was a decent man.

I will pass on the Senator's kind remarks.

The Senator should confine his remarks to matters relevant to the Order of Business.

I endorse Senator John Whelan's comments on the household charge. There is a group encouraging people from the North, Britain, Germany, France, the United States and elsewhere to break the law in this country. I have never heard anyone in another country advising people from other jurisdictions to break the law in that country. It is probably symptomatic of the anti-everything campaign. I see it in Donegal all the time, where even a priest whom I will not name has urged parishioners, from the pulpit, not to pay the household charge. It is despicable that a member of the church would advise people who go to mass to receive religious guidance not to pay their taxes. The country should have a good look at itself.

In regard to the referendum on the European fiscal compact proposal, there is already misinformation by the No campaign. Members of that group should note that anybody who puts up posters in advance of the official commencement of the campaign will be guilty of breaking the law. We were all very conscious during the last general election that leaving a poster up seven days after it would leave us liable to a fine of €200. However, no action is being taken by local government to deal with this postering which was happening even before yesterday in respect of the household charge and so on.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

I support Senator John Whelan's proposal that the Minister be invited to the House to explain why An Post has not been nominated to collect the household charge and whether the situation can be rectified. Householders have only four weeks left in which to pay the charge and An Post could assist in processing payments.

On the issue of austerity——

The Senator is over time.

The reality is that Sinn Féin is the austerity party in Northern Ireland. It is leading a march on the other side of the Border.

(Interruptions).

Its new anthem should be "starvation once again".

The Senator's time is up.

Despite what has been said on the other side of the House, Senator Terry Leyden has raised a fundamental issue in regard to the forthcoming referendum. As somebody who was actively involved in previous referendums, I advise the Government to tread very carefully in how it presents this issue to the people. The first referendum on the Nice treaty which was essentially a housekeeping exercise was lost because people believed their sons and daughters would be carried off to serve in a European army. That issue has since disappeared from the agenda of those who voted against the interests of the country on that occasion. That referendum was rejected because of campaigning by sectional interests opposed to Government policy, including nurses, taxi drivers and various others. I could read out a litany of such interests.

If anyone assumes this referendum will be embraced by the people without detailed debate and a quid pro quo for the State, he or she is gravely mistaken. It may sound like pork barrel politics, but there is a unique opportunity for the Government to tell the European Union that our bank debt is unsustainable in the medium to long term and that the country — I have said this repeatedly in the House — cannot continue to operate under the burden of that debt. Those who have been quick to criticise Fianna Fáil Administrations of the past must have been interested to hear a senior German MEP and former chairman of the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament, Elmar Brok, point out on “Prime Time” last night that the reason the European Union, including Ireland, was in its current state was the bank collapse of 2007 and 2008. Whatever mistakes Fianna Fáil might have made in government, the fundamental reason for our current difficulties is the activities of greedy banks, particularly the German banks. It is important to note that they are separate from the German people. I agree with Senator Aideen Hayden that we should not be seen to be expressing anti-German sentiments. The activities of German banks which flooded this and other countries with cheap and easy money, together with a poor regulatory regime, are the main reasons we find ourselves in our current position.

One can argue about the politics of the issue until the cows come home. What it comes down to is that the Government must let its European counterparts know that if the referendum is to be carried, the people must be given some hope they will get out from under the unsustainable and unacceptable bank debt. We could then operate within a fiscal treaty that would oblige us to adhere to the 3% deficit requirement. We should bear in mind in that regard that this was one of the few countries which ran a budget surplus up to the time of the collapse of the banking system which occurred as a consequence of the activities in the sub-prime market and of the toxic American banks. The sooner that narrative is engaged with, rather than merely firing shots about what Fianna Fáil did in government, the sooner we can move forward, as all of us wish to do, to remove this burden from the people and re-enter an era of prosperity.

It is important that we have a constructive debate on this matter. During the referendum on the Lisbon treaty a leaflet was distributed to every household on the north side of Cork city claiming that a "Yes" vote would lead to legalised abortion and prostitution, the imposition of conscription and a European insistence on no more than one child per family. The media have an important role to play in the upcoming referendum. They must take on such claims and ensure the correct information is made available.

It is constructive to consider the positives. While we had 1.2 million people working in this country in 1990, that number had increased to 2.1 million by 2008. For the first time we made a serious impact in facilitating people to provide jobs. We must return to that position. The European Union has an important role to play in ensuring we can continue to create jobs.

Senator Norris described the current debt position as "diabolical". However, it is not just about the payment of bank debts; it is also about getting our finances under control. A single figure illustrates the enormity of the problem. Last year we paid out €13.4 billion for the provision of health care services, including elderly care services, medical cards, hospital care services and so on, and brought in €13.317 billion in income tax. In other words, every cent we received in income tax went on the provision of health care. We have been able to maintain public services only because we have been able to access finance. It is about being part of the European market and ensuring we can increase exports and thus create jobs. The media have a vital role to play in the debate and must play that role constructively. On previous occasions information, which was untrue, was put into the public domain.

The House will be interested to know that yesterday the Cabinet approved the Construction Contracts Bill 2010 initiated in this House almost two years ago. I mention this because of the importance of the legislation to the construction industry and the length of time it takes to get things done. A number of amendments to the legislation have been proposed, following which this House will consider it. I hope that happens quickly.

I ask that the Leader ensure the Government is aware of the urgency of getting this legislation through the Dáil and Seanad prior to the summer recess so that it can be enacted, thus benefiting society as a whole and in particular the construction industry.

I, too, welcome the referendum on the fiscal compact treaty. I am one of a few people on this side who advocated that we should have a referendum. I have faith in the judgment of the Irish people. I believe the result of the referendum will be positive, which will increase Ireland's standing in Europe. I welcome the proposed debate on the treaty. I propose to the Leader that the Seanad take the lead in the debate on the referendum and that this House meet one or two Fridays a month between now and polling day to discuss European matters, with no limit in terms of speaking time and at which time people can express their views for or against the treaty and Europe. We could also consider inviting in outside experts, including the Minister, who have particular information in regard to Europe that could be useful.

The relevance of the Seanad is an issue regularly discussed. The Seanad is extremely relevant. However, it could and should play a pivotal role in the distribution of information on the referendum to citizens of the country. I ask that the Leader inquire as to the funding that will be made available to the referendum commission. It is hoped that the referendum commission will play an equally pivotal role in this referendum, not alone in respect of citizens who have a vote but to school children throughout the country. Debate on this referendum provides Government with an opportunity to engage with young people. I sincerely hope the referendum commission will distribute information that is relevant, useful, informative and set out in simple language which people can understand.

I ask that the Leader provide time for a debate on older Irish citizens. In September last, the Leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Martin, asked me to prepare a policy document for Fianna Fáil on the issue of older people in Irish society. I spent the past six months meeting the different groups engaged in this area. Yesterday, Deputy Martin and I launched this document, which has the full support of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party, as official Fianna Fáil policy on older people in Irish society. There are 500,000 people over the age of 65 years in this country. In less than 20 years, there will be 1 million older people in this country.

My document addresses key issues such as human rights and choice in the workplace for older people. Fianna Fáil proposes to introduce a Bill on the abolition of mandatory retirement in the public and private sector. There is no reason a person should have to retire on reaching 65 years of age. This is age discrimination. It is also unlawful. Mandatory retirement in the UK has been repealed. Fianna Fáil intends to introduce legislation in this area.

In January this year, the euro-barometer indicated that 46% of Irish people would like to remain in work after 65 years of age. People are eager to participate in society. There are 20 recommendations in my document, all of which I will not go into now.

Is the Senator looking for a debate on the issue?

One recommendation — in respect of which I pleaded with the former Minister, Mary Harney — is that women of 65 years of age be entitled to free breast cancer screening.

Fianna Fáil proposes to introduce legislation which will ensure every woman over the age of 65 years will be entitled to free breast cancer screening. I will draw the attention of the House to my other recommendations on a daily basis.

Well done Senator.

Recent courses organised by SafeTALK highlight the need for more help to encourage men to speak about depression and to seek help for their condition. It is widely recognised that men are more reluctant to speak about being depressed. This was highlighted at a course I recently attended through the use of video.

A recent newspaper article revealed that a study undertaken by the National Suicide Research Foundation in Cork found that 80% of suicide victims had been in touch with their GPs in the year prior to their suicide. It is sad that these people sought help but did not get it when they needed it. Our first port of call when anything is wrong is always the GP. I agree with Senator Gilroy and others that more training and suicide awareness among GPs is urgently needed. I would go further and ask that more training be provided to all health and community workers countrywide in an effort to reduce the incidence of suicide.

In the six years between 2003 and 2009, 75,119 people presented at emergency departments throughout the country following deliberate self harm. The National Registry of Deliberate Self Harm also reported that people who have deliberately self harmed are 30 to 50 times more likely to commit suicide. I ask that the Leader invite the Minister for Health to the House for a debate on suicide and, more important, on encouraging people to implement suicide awareness training for community and health workers.

I commend Senator Quinn for his work and achievement in respect of the Construction Contracts Bill. It is rare for an Independent Senator to have legislation accepted by Cabinet. The legislation concerned is important to sub-contractors and the private sector.

Like everyone else, I welcome the proposed referendum. One of the main concerns in respect of the treaty is the role of the European Central Bank and the democratic deficit with which we could be left. Also, there is no reassurance in regard to our common consolidated tax base. There will be a great deal of scaremongering in the run up to the referendum. However, that is part of any debate. Issues such as Ireland being thrown out of Europe, the euro and the EU will be up for debate.

It was stated by a colleague opposite that in my comments I was castigating the Germans. However, I was in that regard quoting German Ministers. The German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schåuble, has proposed that Greece should delay its elections and that a technocrat cabinet should be put in place to run Greece. It is little wonder people are saying the Germans are running Europe. It is little wonder they are saying that when the Germans themselves are proposing that Europe will be run according to their wishes.

It is a matter of supreme arrogance to assume I was referring to the Senator.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

No, but I was referring to the Senator and her comment. That is the reason——

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Like all——

On a point of order, in respect of Senator Daly and the comments regarding——

That is not a point of order.

No, it is a point of order. If he wishes to quote to the House, he should read the full article.

That is not a point of order. The Senator is wasting time.

He should read the entire article.

Does Senator Daly have a question for the Leader?

For the benefit of the Senator, I will read the full article.

Senator Daly——

It states, "Wolfgang Schåuble, the German finance minister, even suggested postponing the election and setting up a small technocratic cabinet like Italy's to run Greece". I will forward a copy to the Senator.

The Senator should respect the Chair.

The Senator is out of time. I call Senator Paul Coghlan.

I had only two interruptions. Outside of that, I look forward to the Government's point on when we reach our fiscal targets according to the new——

Will the Senator, please, resume his seat? I call Senator Paul Coghlan.

Senator Daly is trying to clarify his position.

Senator Daly should resume his seat.

What budget will we have when we are obliged to reach those targets?

It is good to hear that man try to clarify his position. I do not always agree with my good friend, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on the Order of Business. This morning, however, I seriously compliment him on his steady, sure and responsible leadership with regard to the fiscal compact treaty and the referendum that now is to be held thereon. As he stated, it is in the interests of the common good. It will also build on the steady progress this country has been making and will support the growing international investor confidence in Ireland that has been so important. It will assist the economy and Ireland's reputation and the jobs that are flowing therefrom. It reaffirms our will and our commitment to the euro and membership thereof. It will give us stronger fiscal rules, which are necessary never to have a recurrence of what happened in the past and which led us into the appalling abyss from which we are recovering at present and hopefully will continue to recover. Moreover, it will confirm our commitment to responsible budgeting. For all these reasons, many of which were alluded to by Senator O'Brien, Government Members obviously equally agree. Moreover, they look forward to a highly constructive campaign and to working in harmony and co-operation with the Fianna Fáil grouping in this House. I hope the Fianna Fáil grouping in the other House will unite as much as its Seanad counterpart has done and I compliment them in that regard.

That will be done.

I commend Senator Mary White for the wonderful work she has undertaken in respect of active ageism and in particular on the policy document on older people she launched earlier this week. All Members look forward to participating in the debate when the proposed legislation comes before the House and all sides of the House should support the aims contained within Senator White's document.

On another health-related issue, I support Senator MacSharry's call for the Minister for Health to come to the House because of the assurances and promises made in the north west both before and after the last general election in respect of two hospitals. I refer to the promises regarding Sligo General Hospital, the retention of cancer services there and the creation of a centre of excellence for cancer treatment in Sligo, as well as the retention of Lifford Community Hospital. These promises were made by Labour Party and Fine Gael candidates in Sligo-North Leitrim and Donegal South-West. They also were made by the current Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, when he visited Lifford last February. He stated categorically that were Fine Gael in government, the future of Lifford Community Hospital would be secure. Last week, Health Service Executive West published its report which confirmed that Lifford Community Hospital is closing. The only reason public consultation is now being entered into is because three ferocious elderly patients at Abbeyleix community hospital took the HSE to court before Christmas and won their case. The Minister for Health must come to this House because at a time when people's view of politics is challenging, Ministers have gone up and down the country making all sorts of promises simply to buy votes. Thereafter, having been elected and the faith of the people having been bestowed upon them they turn around and throw it back in people's faces.

The Senator is out of time.

I wish to ask a question of the Minister for Health.

The Senator is out of time.

What does he intend to do to rehouse the 20 people at Lifford Community Hospital? I appeal to the Leader to bring the Minister to this House today to answer some of these questions because thus far he has evaded them.

Why did the Senator not ask the Minister when he was in the Chamber?

Three Members are left and at the discretion of the Chair, I will give them one minute each.

Déanfaidh mé iarracht cúpla focal a rá i mo theanga féin. Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Ring, ar an obair iontach a rinne sé le deanaí. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil a fhios ag Seanadóirí, ach beidh foirne ó seacht nó ocht tír ar fud an domhain ag teacht go príomh cathair na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath, chun cleachtadh a dhéanamh don Olympic Games. Tá siad ag teacht ó na Stáit Aontaithe, ó Venezuela, ó South Korea, ón Pholainn agus ó fud an domhain chugainn.

I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, as chairman of the Olympic co-ordinating committee, on obtaining this major tourism boost for Ireland. It is a true reflection of the magnificent world-class facilities available at the National Aquatic Centre. I wish to acknowledge this and issue a céad míle fáilte do gach foireann a bhfuil ag teacht go Baile Átha Cliath an samhradh seo.

It is generally agreed that a good decision has been made to hold a referendum, which had been requested by all sides in this House, as well as among the public. As public representatives, three options are available to Members. First, they can stay quiet, keep their heads down and let others take the flak. Second, they can oppose it and feed on the anger which evidently exists. However, the third and most positive option is to support the referendum for the good of all the people and the good of the country. I do not wish to get into the area of scaremongering, which I am sure takes place on both sides. However, if Members deal only with the negative aspect of the present position, if they always work towards scoring political points and do not, for once, put their heads above the parapet, freely and independently, for the general good of all the people on this referendum, I certainly believe they will find themselves isolated to a large degree, which is not the case at present. I also believe this would do immense damage to Ireland's image internationally.

I welcome both the holding of the referendum and the responsible attitude being displayed by the Fianna Fáil grouping this morning in supporting the referendum. I wish to support Senator Conway's call to the Leader to facilitate some additional sittings of the Seanad to debate this treaty in an open and responsible fashion. This would also fulfil the wishes of Senator Colm Burke, who called for the media to report responsibly in this regard. It would provide the latter with an opportunity to be present for those dates. All Members complain the media pays very little attention to what goes on in the Seanad. However, were Members to have a mature and open debate on all aspects of the treaty, the media may well see fit to concentrate on reporting the proceedings of this House in a much fuller fashion.

This probably will be the most important treaty on which people must decide because of its impact. The common good and the future of our country are very much at stake. This would be a further step along the road towards rebuilding Ireland's economy and restoring our international reputation, as well as contributing to strengthening the euro.

Those points can be made during the debate.

It is certainly not a time for bashing any of our European partners because we are all in this together. This is probably the most significant decision we are going to be called on to make in the coming years.

Tá mé an-bhuíoch go bhfuil deis agam labhairt maidin inniu.

I welcome yesterday's announcement to the effect that a referendum on the fiscal compact is both required and will be held. There is only one reason to vote "Yes" to the treaty, namely, that we will not have access to moneys from any new bailout fund if we do not do so. This is probably the only good reason to vote in favour of the treaty. I attended an interparliamentary meeting in Brussels in recent days at which considerably difficult issues regarding the contents of the fiscal compact were raised. The British have severe doubts about the legality of the compact. I expressed similar doubts a number of weeks ago. Questions also arose at the meeting in the context of what constitutes a structural deficit. One of the speakers informed us that there are at least 27 definitions in this regard. These issues will have to be teased out. On that basis, I request that the Leader meet his counterparts among the other groups in the House in order to establish the format that will apply in respect of the debate in which we will engage on this matter. We must ensure that our debate reaches the widest possible audience and has the greatest possible impact on people. We could do the public a good service by engaging in a Committee Stage-style debate. I accept that this is agreed but we should be informed as to the details of the debate.

I reiterate what I said on a number of previous occasions, namely, that some Members raise points on the Order of Business and then disappear without waiting for a reply. That is absolutely despicable. Two Members approached me when they had made their contributions and stated that they were obliged to attend committee meetings. Others, however, merely swanned off as usual. That is just not acceptable.

There are also certain Members who table matters to be raised on the Adjournment and are then not present to discuss them when the relevant Ministers come before the House. That is also completely unacceptable.

It is shameful. Sanctions should be imposed.

If we want the House to succeed in the way that it should, we must be more responsible in our attitude to it. I address my comments in this regard to Members who are not present in the Chamber.

The Leader should name and shame those to whom he refers. This type of thing has been going on for too long.

I completely agree with the Senator that it has been going on for too long.

I wholeheartedly welcome the support of Fianna Fáil, which Senator Darragh O'Brien outlined, for the referendum on the fiscal compact, which will be of paramount importance in stabilising the economic situation in Europe. It will also be another vital step on the road to rebuilding Ireland's economy. As previous speakers indicated, the Seanad will play an important role in the debate on this matter. Long before the decision to hold the referendum was taken, the House had already determined that it would debate the fiscal compact in detail. We have already made arrangements for an information day for Members to be held in the audio-visual, AV, room on 8 March next. In addition, we will have a very constructive and detailed debate on every aspect of the fiscal compact. The Seanad will, therefore, play its part in the debate leading up to the referendum.

Senator Darragh O'Brien also referred to ComReg and An Post. I will try to obtain an update for him in respect of that matter.

I support the remarks made by Senator Whelan, particularly in respect of the household charge and the methods of payment relating thereto. There is certainly a need for local authorities to take a more active role with regard to this issue. The Senator stated that An Post should be involved in the payment process relating to the charge. He should remember that there will be a need for An Post to be competitive in its activities.

Senator Norris referred to pulling down the European project. I am obliged to ask where Ireland would be in the context of human rights and social policy if it was not a member of the European Union.

On a point of order and if I might correct the Leader, I referred to bringing down the European financial system.

That is not a point of order.

It is a point of fact. I do not like to be misrepresented.

Senator Sheahan referred to the cost of fuel. That is a matter which can be discussed with the Minister for Finance when he comes before the House.

I agree with Senator Walsh that the fiscal compact treaty will put in place a credible commitment to responsible budgeting. I assure him that the Government is committed to securing a deal on the promissory notes.

Senator Gilroy also referred to the referendum and is seeking proper, factual and informative comment during the debate relating to it. I am sure we all agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senator in that regard.

Senator Keane has referred to the fact that this is International Rare Diseases Day. There are over 250,000 people in this country who have rare diseases. It is important that when people are diagnosed with such diseases, the necessary drugs be made available to them.

I assure Senator Ó Clochartaigh that the Government will consider the wording of the referendum carefully before it is put to the people. There will certainly be ample time available to discuss the treaty in its entirety.

Senator Hayden referred to the proposed referendum on children's rights. This will take place later in the year. The Government is completely committed to holding such a referendum and it will take place before the end of 2012. I agree with the Senator in respect of the anti-German sentiment among certain Members. It is regrettable that such sentiments were expressed.

Senator Hayden also called for a debate on housing and the construction industry. We are trying to arrange a debate with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, on that matter.

Senator MacSharry spoke passionately about the national cancer strategy. We engaged in a debate with the Minister for Health only a couple of weeks ago and the Senator posed questions to him at that point. Numerous individuals had requested that such a debate take place but when the Minister came before the House, only ten Members were present to ask questions.

Members who seek debates should look into their hearts. I refer to those who request debates and then do not attend when the relevant Minister comes before the House.

In the context of Senator Harte's comments, I am appalled that a member of a religious order is urging people not to pay a tax and to break the law. If that is the case, it is despicable.

Senator Quinn referred to the Construction Contracts Bill. As he correctly pointed out, the Cabinet approved the Bill yesterday. I will emphasise to the Government the sense of urgency relating to the Bill. I compliment the Senator on bringing it before the House and ensuring that it reached this stage. What has happened in this instance highlights the importance of introducing Private Members' Bills in the House.

Senators Conway and Mullins requested that time be made available for a debate on the fiscal compact treaty. We will allow as much time as possible to be devoted to debating the treaty in the House.

Senator White made a number of important points in respect of older people. I hope that the report of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee will be published very soon. It is a pity that it has not emerged as yet but it will be published in the near future. I am sure many of the recommendations it will contain are already contemplated in the booklet to which the Senator referred.

Senator Moran referred to men being encouraged to talk about depression. This is an extremely important matter and reference was made to it in the debate on suicide in which the House engaged on 12 January.

Senator Daly expressed certain sentiments in respect of Germany. It is regrettable that the Senator did not clarify the position and apologise for the points he made yesterday, when he insisted that the Government would not hold a referendum. Of course, he made his remarks approximately two minutes prior to the Taoiseach's announcement that a referendum would be held. The Senator spoke a little too soon on the matter.

Senator Brennan has referred to the teams that will be coming to Ireland to train prior to the Olympic Games. That will certainly provide a boost for tourism. We need all the boosts we can get at this point.

Senator Ó Murchú has stated that the most positive action people can take is to support the treaty in the forthcoming referendum. I completely agree with him in that regard.

I am sure Members of the House would like to join me in wishing the Head Usher, Mr. Noel Kelly, well in his retirement. He is retiring today after a very long service in which he contributed to the smooth running of the House. He is a credit to the Oireachtas and has been an absolute gentleman to work with during the years.

Senator Marc MacSharry has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate with the Minister for Health on the national cancer control programme be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

I am afraid it must.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 29.

  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Crown, John.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Daly, Mark.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • O’Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Marc MacSharry and Ned O’Sullivan; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and John Whelan.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.
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