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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 May 2012

Vol. 215 No. 12

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, statements, questions and answers on the 2012 sports capital programme, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, the contribution of one Sinn Féin Member not to exceed three minutes and the contributions of all other Senators not to exceed one minute when asking questions of the Minister. A Supplementary Order Paper will be issued later today to include the Electricity Regulation (Carbon Revenue Levy) (Amendment) Bill 2012 once it has passed all Stages in the Dáil. I have been advised by the Bills Office that the earliest the debate on the Bill can commence in this House is 5 p.m., as previously advised in the schedule issued earlier this week. If it is not improper to do so at this stage, it is proposed that the contributions of group spokespersons on Second Stage shall not exceed six minutes and those of all other Senators shall not exceed four minutes, with the Minister having ten minutes to reply to the debate, and that Committee and Remaining Stages be taken immediately thereafter.

I refer to the fiscal compact treaty and the summit discussions which continued into the early hours of the morning. The news has come from the summit that there will be no changes adopted to the treaty prior to its full implementation across the eurozone. This is important because it sends a very clear message to the Irish electorate as it prepares to vote next week. The other clear message stems from last night's news from the National Treasury Management Agency in response to questions put in the Dáil by the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on finance, Deputy Michael McGrath. That organisation is charged with the responsibility of obtaining money outside the country to fund public services here. Effectively, if we vote "No" next week, it is almost unavoidable that Ireland will not be in a position to obtain money in international bond markets. That should send a clear message to the people that we need the stability that will be provided by the European treaty and access to the ESM, should we need to access the funds available after 2014. Therefore, it is incumbent on the Taoiseach to engage in a public debate on the national airwaves before the referendum to outline its importance to the people. He is the leader of the "Yes" campaign. Our party leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, is available to debate the treaty. He has not received any assurance from the Taoiseach or, indeed, the leader of Sinn Féin, to engage in such a public debate on RTE, which has a public obligation to provide for such a debate. The Taoiseach should reflect on his position over the next 24 hours and engage in a debate early next week.

Students preparing for leaving certificate examinations will be affected by this morning's comments by the Higher Education Authority that it will issue a report over the summer months that could lead to student registration fees increasing to at least €5,000, with additional charges also proposed, to fund higher education. This is alarming. If the proposal is accepted by the Government, it will be in stark contrast to what the Minister for Education and Skills said before the general election, when he categorically ruled out the introduction of third level fees. Those words now ring hollow. Will the Minister implement the recommendations of the Higher Education Authority or not?

It was announced today that Hewlett Packard is to reduce its global workforce of 350,000 by approximately 30,000, which is an 8% reduction. There are currently 4,000 employees in Hewlett Packard companies in Ireland. What discussions has the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, had with the company? Has he met or had any contact with the company, and if not, why not? I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to come to the Chamber and enlighten us as to the discussions that have taken place to date. Some 4,000 Irish people are worrying as to whether their jobs are secure.

I agree with Senator Ó Domhnaill's comments regarding the summit and the stability treaty. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are to be congratulated on a successful summit, although the main summit will follow in a month's time. I like the strong focus on addressing the problems of youth unemployment and infrastructure and on the idea that unused Structural Funds should be placed in a centralised pool for use by countries such as Ireland. There is a strong package of stimulus measures which, I hope, will be signed off at the next summit in a month's time. I also like the proposal regarding project bonds. This is all positive for Ireland and I compliment the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste.

What Senator Ó Domhnaill said about the treaty referendum is important. As he said, matters were clarified at the summit. There has also been clarification from the Referendum Commission. Everything the Senator said in that regard is true. The treaty is simply about good housekeeping and good budgeting, which the country needs for the future.

Senator Ó Domhnaill also referred to providing access to funds. Why should we cut ourselves off from those funds? If further money is needed, and we hope it is not, it would be stupid not to have that insurance policy in place. We need funds to look after our social welfare recipients and pensioners and to pay public service employees. This is a prudent measure. I am glad matters were clarified beyond all doubt at the summit.

There is a crisis in the way culture and our living heritage is administered by the Government. This is not about money but about the lack of vision and public consultation in the way our national cultural institutions are being treated in a profoundly secretive and cavalier way. I am concerned about this and I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to the Seanad for an urgent debate on the Government's cultural policy.

As director of a national cultural institution, the Abbey Theatre, I am aware of cutting budgets, rationalising, sharing resources and, regrettably, letting staff go. All my colleagues in national cultural institutions are trying to achieve this, yet there is no public consultation. Thirteen organisations are under critical review or will be rationalised, amalgamated or abolished in 2012. That is a tsunami of desecration and potential undermining of the whole cultural infrastructure of our nation. The list of these institutions is as follows: the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the Crawford Art Gallery, the National Gallery of Ireland, the National Archives, the Irish Manuscripts Commission, An Coimisinéir Teanga, the National Library, the National Museum, the Chester Beatty Library, the Placenames Commission, the Heritage Council and Culture Ireland. Three of these organisations — the National Museum of Ireland, the National Archives and Culture Ireland — have yet to advertise the vacant position of director.

I was appointed to the Seanad by An Taoiseach because of my work in this area. My colleagues cannot speak either because they are civil servants or are in the middle of the crisis. I come here to bear witness for them and to ask the House to invite the Minister to come to the House immediately — today — as a matter of urgency.

The Senator should move an amendment.

Is this the end of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997, initiated by the President when he was a Minister, and of the National Archives Act 1986? Will the merger of the National Archives and the National Library succeed in saving money? It will not. I know there can be reductions in costs and more sharing of services, but to abolish or merge organisations without any public consultation or even publicly stated rationale is to be regretted.

The State is to abolish the National Archives, which was established as the State Paper Office in 1702. The National Library was founded in 1877. A merger, in whatever form it takes, will create a new body that will wipe away 450 years of history. As Mr. Fintan O'Toole said, "Two bits of the public service that actually work will be dismantled and the nation's memory banks will be entrusted to some as yet unknown entity." What is the point of promoting Ireland as a nation that supports culture and attracts tourism and of talking about commemoration if we are to dismantle all this? Probably the most successful cultural project of the past 25 years, with more foreign visitors than many organisations, is the online project of digitising the 1901 and 1911 census returns.

This morning, I read in The Irish Times that one of our eminent historians, Professor Diarmuid Ferriter, has resigned from the board of the National Library. This is worrying and a warning to us in this House. Professor Ferriter, an extraordinary historian who has brought the archive into the folk mind of the way historians now talk about history, said there was “‘little clarity’ from the Government as to the reason for proposed mergers”. Professor Ferriter also pointed out the irony of the Government working on a decade of centenary commemorations to mark the foundation of the State while it was intent on doing untold damage to the very institutions that are the custodians of so much of that history. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business calling on the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, to come to the House today to discuss this matter.

It is my honour to second the passionate proposal of Senator Fiach Mac Conghail. I agree thoroughly with what he is saying. We are witnessing the dismantling of our cultural heritage. I recently had the opportunity to visit a number of these institutions and to speak directly to the people in charge. I know that what Senator Mac Conghail says is absolutely right.

This is the consequence of the situation we are in. It comes back to the economy. I have just come from the conference in Buswells Hotel about the Laura Lynn foundation, which has had its funding cut by 16%. The foundation helps children who are terminally ill. This is the consequence of European policies.

There is not media balance in the debate on the treaty referendum. Deputy Gerry Adams appearing on television will not be a huge benefit for the "No" side.

Deputies Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou McDonald are much more competent Sinn Féin spokespeople. However, it is idiotic for RTE to bend the rules and give more time to the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, although he will probably be a disaster too.

My good friend, Senator Paul Coghlan, spoke about an insurance policy. This is an insurance policy where the premium will probably exceed the value of the thing insured.

That is the craziness of it. We are mortgaging ourselves up to the hilt. Some of these people should be brought and shown what they are doing to our culture and to institutions that help our children. It is having an impact right across the system.

We are getting it without a premium. It is free.

If we look for example at the other issue that was raised, the question of education——

Senator Norris should be allowed to speak, without interruption.

I do not mind interruptions. On the question of students and free fees, "free fees" is an ugly dishonest phrase. It was dishonest on the part of the previous coalition with the Labour Party when it was introduced. There is no such thing. It is an oxymoron. Either education is free or one pays fees. I pointed that out years ago to students. I knew registration fees would go up. They were then a couple of hundred euro, now they have climbed. If people have a conscience and put the interests of the community and the welfare of the people above the preservation of the institution, and if they accept that as a principle, then they would see that what is necessary is that they are going to have to have fees. What they should be fighting for is the level of the means test to ensure the small assets that are available are directed at those who most need them. It is a regrettable situation. I am in favour of a proper universal free education system. I am also fully in favour of a totally free universal medical system but I know we cannot have them in the current situation, in which case if one has any human decency at all, one would ensure the most vulnerable are looked after, which is what I would call for.

I noticed on posters in Dublin this morning — fresh shiny posters — the words, "Demand a better deal. Vote No." The posters are from an organisation that calls itself Libertas. Those of us who know about these things know there is no organisation called Libertas. It is just a front or pseudonym for Declan Ganley. What is really going on is that Mr. Ganley wants a better deal, not for you or for me, but for Declan Ganley. He represents——

May I make a point of order, please——

Senator Norris may make a point of order.

——in the most orderly possible way? It is with no disrespect to my distinguished colleague, but I am surprised the Cathaoirleach did not act, given the tradition that people who are not here to defend themselves should not be named. I have no time whatever for Mr. Ganley, but he is not here to defend himself and the point could be made about the organisation without naming the individual.

I thank Senator Norris for reminding me of that. I ask Senator O'Keeffe to refrain from mentioning names on the Order of Business.

Libertas represents a new phenomenon in Irish politics. It is called the privatisation of politics. This is about people whose businesses are shrouded in secrecy providing funding for campaigns, largely in secret, and whose personal business aspirations are sidestepped every time they are raised. This is a campaign being run for the private aspirations of private people. I want to know what is going on behind the scenes, in particular with a man called Crispin Odey, who with his wife, Nichola Pease, have been called the Posh and Becks of finance in the UK.

I remind the Senator again about naming people who are not here to defend themselves.

Indeed. I do not know what to say except that it is the truth of the matter.

It is out of the bag.

The truth of the matter is that this is——

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

I have. I would like to ask the Leader to deplore what I describe as the creeping privatisation of politics in Ireland.

God knows, politicians take enough criticism, some of it warranted, but the idea that individuals with their own private aspirations can use a referendum to further their own ends is a disgrace. I ask the Leader to condemn it unreservedly on the part of this House.

They were good points.

Is the Deputy Leader in a position to indicate when the 2012 constituency review will be published? The commission is chaired by Mr. Justice John Cooke, the Clerk Assistant of the Dáil, the Clerk of the Seanad, Ms Deirdre Lane, the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, and the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Ms Geraldine Tallon. It is important the document would be published because there are 165 concerned Deputies. The 166th Deputy is automatically re-elected so he is not a bit concerned about the issue. In the Fine Gael manifesto——

This is defined by law; it is not a matter for the Deputy Leader. I am sure the report will be published.

It has been the tradition that there would be a debate in both Houses on the commission report. That would be in order because there are many people in this House who will be candidates in the general election and who will be successfully re-elected, provided the constituencies are drawn up in a beneficial way to them.

We note Senator Leyden's renewed interest.

The Fine Gael manifesto promised——

Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

I have. This is the point. The Fine Gael manifesto promised a reduction of 20 seats as part of the package of Oireachtas reform, but because it required a constitutional amendment, the party decided to drop the matter. I hope it takes a similar approach in so far as the abolition of this House is concerned. In the circumstances, such a referendum would probably be defeated as well. I understand the number of seats will be reduced by approximately six seats. The margin will be approximately 146 to 153, with the lower number possibly being considered. It is an important issue for the career of politicians. I have suffered from the gerrymandering of constituencies. It was outrageous when Longford was brought in with Roscommon across the border of the River Shannon, joining two provinces.

We are not discussing the issue today.

It is very important. I understand the report has been printed but will not be released until the——

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

——manifesto is out of the way because some Members in this House will not be back because of the situation. They will be less than enthusiastic about canvassing for a vote in the referendum.

The Senator is speculating on the Order of Business.

No, it is not speculation. The fact is the commission has signed off on the report and I ask the Deputy Leader——

It is a confidential report at this stage.

Of course it is.

I call Senator Noone.

I ask the Deputy Leader of the House to provide time to discuss the report when it is published. That is all.

I welcome the news from Europe that there is to be no change to the proposed treaty. That will bring the necessary certainty to the issue and the importance of the need for the public to vote "Yes" in the forthcoming referendum. Those advocating a "No" vote must take note of it and stop misleading the public. I support what Senator Susan O'Keeffe said about Libertas in particular, which seems to be particularly unfocused when it comes to the referendum. Its campaign is about all matters in the economy and says nothing about the treaty. People must realise the treaty will represent stability and has nothing to do with austerity. The idea of calling it an austerity treaty is flawed. It is a gimmick.

I also support what was said by Senator Mac Conghail on culture and arts. It is startling to hear the institutions it is proposed to close. I will not repeat what he said about history and the fact some of the institutions have been in existence for 400 or 500 years. I also call on the Minister to come to the House to discuss the matter. It is of concern that there has been no public consultation on the proposals but at least we could have some consultation on the matter in the House. I am sure the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, would be more than happy to come to the House. I doubt he would be in a position to come today. That is something the Deputy Leader will address. Debates on arts and culture are welcome in the House but this specific matter is urgent. I urge that we would have a debate on it in the coming week, if that is possible.

I formally second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by my colleague, Senator Mac Conghail. I come to the issue from a different perspective than Senator Mac Conghail. I am very interested in family history and my ancestry and I have done extensive work on it. I have had the pleasure of directly using the services of the National Archives and the National Library of Ireland. They have provided exemplary work in this area. I am also a subscriber to several US and UK publications on family history and ancestry which regularly praise the work of the National Archives or the National Library of Ireland as exemplars of how we should go about researching ancestry and family history. I, too, was surprised — shocked, actually — when I heard Professor Ferriter had resigned. I read in The Irish Times this morning that he pointed to the irony of the Government working on a decade of centenary commemorations to mark the foundation of the State while it is intent on doing untold damage to the very institutions which are the custodians of so much of that history. It makes me question whether this is the end of the arm’s length principle between the Minister and the national cultural institutions. Is this the Government’s new policy on culture.

There is an urgency in the issue, for which reason the Minister should attend the House today. We must address the Government's policy on culture and send a clear message. We are promoting the Gathering next year and are sending signals around the world. This is a question of credibility. The Minister must give the Seanad a clear answer today.

I will use this opportunity to mark the retirement of Mr. John Behan, the first parliamentary porter to retire from Leinster House. Tomorrow is his last day but, as today is our last sitting day before then, I want to wish John well and thank him for his service down the years.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I have just come from a briefing providing by the LauraLynn House, the first children's hospice in Ireland. To hear its stories was heart-rending. Since that presentation was badly attended by Oireachtas Members, we may reschedule the briefing in the AV room. In due course, will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Health to attend the Seanad to debate the issue of funding for the hospice, as that appears to be its major issue?

I am sure that all Members of the House would like to join in wishing Mr. John Behan the best of luck in his retirement.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Ba mhaith liom tacú go huile agus go hiomlán le mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Mac Conghail, maidir leis an leasú atáá mholadh aige ar Riar na hOibre maidir le cúrsaí cultúrtha agus oidhreachta.

Ar an bpointe céanna, tréaslaím leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta McGinley, a rinne fógra aréir atá an-tábhachtach do Chonamara. Is é sin go bhfuil ionad eolais do chuairteoirí le tógáil i gConamara in onóir do Phádraig Mac Piarais in am do 2016. Tá díomá bheag orm freisin nár thug an Rialtas tacaíocht iomlán aréir don rún a thug Sinn Féin os comhair na Dála maidir le Sráid Uí Mhórdha.

I wish to address last night's elaborate dinner in Brussels where it was, as is said in French, plus ça change. As the Government side has stated, there is no change to the fiscal treaty and we will vote on exactly what we have been debating in recent weeks. The treaty contains no provisions regarding a growth and stability pact on which to vote. We can discuss this matter until the cows come home, but we are voting on an austerity package. We will certainly——

No sprouts from Brussels.

They probably had Brussel sprouts. We are voting on an austerity package that will lumber us with extra austerity on top of what we are already suffering under the troika deal. The people have not been hood-winked. To clarify for the House, the debate that my leader, Deputy Adams, is willing to have is with the leader of the Government's campaign, namely, the Taoiseach. He would have no problem with debating with Deputy Martin, but we view the latter as the second fiddle or the second-in-command. We would certainly be willing to have a debate with Deputy Martin at any time and any place Fianna Fáil wanted.

It is important that we hold another debate on the issue. Everything is changing day by day. Fianna Fáil's rhetoric in recent days has been interesting, in that it appears to be setting the Government up for a fall and laying the blame at the Taoiseach's feet ahead of the treaty's possible defeat.

That is politics.

Has Senator Ó Clochartaigh a question for the Deputy Leader?

Would it be possible to facilitate a further debate prior to the referendum on Thursday? Doing so would be important, given the changing nature of events in Europe.

The "No" side seems to know better than the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, which advised yesterday that Ireland would not return to the bond markets. We never hear the "No" side explain from where the money will come.

What of the leading financial expert, Mr. Justin Urquhart Stewart, who spoke this morning on RTE radio?

Senator Keane without interruption, please.

I beg the Cathaoirleach and Senator Keane's pardon.

Senator Norris loves it every time I get up.

Senator Keane stimulates me.

I would have a hard time——

I had better not say anything.

The Referendum Commission has asked An Post to stop distributing leaflets from the EFD "No" group inside the booklets being distributed to every house. This issue has been brought to the commission's attention by many households. The commission has asked any household that has received the two booklets together, be one tucked inside the other or be they bundled together, to get in contact with it. I saw no advertisement in the newspapers asking every household to do so, but——

What about the unwanted Government propaganda that was foisted on people?

Senator Keane without interruption.

The fact that the Government paid €190,000 or more to An Post to deliver a leaflet to every household, the fact——

We were sent 60 copies that we did not want.

While Sinn Féin voices lies.

Please, Senator Keane without interruption.

The fact remains that An Post has broken its contract and the regulations——

So has the Government.

——by distributing the leaflets in that way. An Post has claimed that it may have been a mistake and that there was no malicious intent. Perhaps that is so, but the Minister should investigate. It may be too late for this referendum, but the policies and procedures that have been laid down in respect of delivering election and referendum literature should be adhered to. If they have not been adhered to, An Post has broken the contract and we should be seeking the return of some money.

This House does not even adhere to them.

The Minister should consider the Government's booklet while he is at it.

Senator Keane, without interruption.

I call on the Minister to make a statement on this matter.

I read this morning's edition of the Irish Examiner and The Irish Times with great pleasure, as they told of a serious strategic decision, namely, Intel’s choice to use Ireland as one of the three locations where it will manufacture its next generation of computer chips. This is the most significant——

It must not be worried about the treaty.

——decision in a number of years that a computer company has made regarding Ireland. The chips will be made at Intel's site in Leixlip. Some 4,000 Irish people work in Intel. The building of the new fab unit will create many construction jobs and the development will create many high-tech opportunities. However, Ireland has a shortage of skills. I call on the Deputy Leader to invite the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to the House urgently to discuss the lack of skills that are necessary to take up these jobs in the computer industry. PayPal in Dundalk needs people to speak 14 languages. I do not understand why the new FÁS — SOLAS — and the Department of Social Protection cannot get off their you-know-whats——

——and involve unemployed young people in skill and language saturation. A person can learn a language in three months if he or she is immersed in it. The number of young people who are unemployed and the lack of skills suitable for new jobs are the most serious issues facing us.

I congratulate Mr. Eamonn Sinnott of Intel and Mr. Barry O'Leary of the IDA on their achievement. Intel's decision is the most significant that has been made in respect of Ireland and the computer processor industry.

It will be the only one outside the US.

It is the only one outside Arizona and Oregon.

Senator White made a valid point, in that some IT positions have gone unfilled. However, progress is being made in this regard. Some of our universities are offering graduates transition courses in IT to upskill them. The Senator is right, in that a gap needs to be filled. At a recent EU meeting that I attended, the EU Commissioner for the digital single market pointed out that, by 2015, the EU will lack an incredible 700,000 IT professionals unless we address the gap. Since 2010, demand has outstripped supply. A concern that we are encountering on the doorsteps in this treaty campaign is about those who caused the banking crisis. People are asking when will those who caused the economic crisis, namely, the bankers, company directors, the regulators who did not do their jobs and those reckless in their behaviour, be punished. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to make an important statement which will be necessary prior to the referendum about this?

The Minister needs to give an account of what is happening in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement with regard to who is being moved on. I understand that cases that will stand up take time. However, in people's minds four years have passed but no one has yet been punished. The Irish people feel punished unnecessarily.

It is important there is a levelling of the playing field when it comes to justice being done.

I second Senator Ó Domhnaill's amendment to the Order of Business. My party also supports Senator Mac Conghail's amendment.

The 32 workers occupying the Vita Cortex factory reached an agreement with management there and this week the dispute finally came to an end. I join in the calls for the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to intervene in a similar dispute involving 25 workers in Lagan Brick in Kingscourt, County Cavan.

This dispute seems to be escalating rather than coming to a resolution. I want the Minister to intervene in this dispute and see that the 25 workers and their families get the rights to which they are entitled.

I support my colleague Senator Healy Eames. People are frustrated and concerned that it is taking so long for the arms of the State to bring to book many of the people who caused so much misery in this country. We would all like to see the justice system moving much faster to resolve some of the ongoing situations.

I join with other speakers in welcoming the clarity that has emerged from the informal European Council meeting last night. It has obviously confirmed the stability treaty is not up for renegotiation and will not change. If we reject the treaty, Europe will move on without us and we will not have access to the new European bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism. What is of particular concern is that people who have a vested interest in seeing chaos across Europe and stand to gain financially are getting so much airtime on so many of our radio and television stations. That is a matter politicians and the political establishment must deal with as my Labour Party colleague said earlier.

Sinn Féin would also want to be honest with the people.

Sinn Féin must tell the people there will be more austerity if we vote "No".

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

He has one for Sinn Féin.

(Interruptions).

This is the Order of Business. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

My question for the Leader is——

Will the Leader ask Sinn Féin——?

(Interruptions).

Could we please have a bit of honesty from Sinn Féin on the treaty debate?

A bit of honesty from the Senator's side would not go amiss either.

I want a bit of honesty from people in my constituency too who are advocating a "No" vote but who have a vested interest in seeing chaos across Europe and money leave the country.

Where are we going to get the €11 billion for the ESM?

My question to the Leader is a follow-up to Senator Healy Eames's question on clarity from the Minister for Justice——

We are advocating a "No" vote.

——and Equality about where we are at in the prosecutions that may or may not arise as a result of the banking crisis.

What about an international court for trying economic crimes?

I call Senator Jim D'Arcy without interruption.

On Thursday of last week, I had the pleasure of welcoming Louise Phelan, the vice-president of PayPal, to Dundalk to speak at a Chamber of Commerce lunch at my invitation. She spoke of the importance of a "Yes" vote in the forthcoming referendum.

It was brought to my attention earlier about mentioning people's names and putting them on the record of the House. I ask the Senator not to do it.

This lady also expressed the importance of our students having a second language. I spoke about this last week in the context of Chinese being introduced as a second language in transition year. We need a second language for our students so they will not be on the back foot. I know the Minister for Education and Skills has been in this Chamber many times and treats the House with the utmost respect but it is mainly for Bills. I would like him to attend the House to outline what is happening at policy level in the Department of Education and Skills to promote the teaching of a second language at a higher level in our secondary schools.

That goes without saying.

I agree with my colleagues who have pointed out how no banker, company director or senior manager has gone to prison or even faced trial for the banking crisis.

Goldman Sachs and the ratings agencies seem to be immune.

It is most regrettable. Unfortunately, the public associates politicians with this process. There does not seem to be a disconnect. The public does not seem to realise An Garda Síochána and the DPP's office are independent and are responsible for carrying out these investigations as well as moving this process forward.

I agree it would be helpful if it were possible for the Minister for Justice and Equality to make a statement to give an indication on the progress the DPP is making in investigating the people who effectively wrecked this economy. Their recklessness resulted in the bones of 500,000 people being unemployed and another 100,000 emigrating. It would be helpful if we got an indication from the Garda Commissioner or the DPP on what point are the investigations to bring these people before the courts so they can answer for the crimes that have destroyed this country.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I just want to comment on the clarification offered by the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, yesterday following a helpful parliamentary question by the Fianna Fáil finance spokesperson in the Lower House. It stated its job to return to the markets next year would be made all the more difficult in the event of a "No" vote. The NTMA has stated this unambiguously and with certainty.

That is why we should go back and renegotiate it.

This follows on from comments made by the IDA chairman. When the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was on the Pat Kenny radio show this morning, he made some excellent points about how certain agencies, such as the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, were criticised for remaining silent during the evolving crisis of the past few years but are now speaking out. Certain media and political commentators try to have both sides of the same coin. They criticise people for remaining silent and for not doing their job, while also criticising other independent agencies when they speak out. I ask the Deputy Leader to facilitate a debate on this issue. We have discussed the stability treaty but we should discuss it again. I am in favour of sitting next week to discuss it. I am sure that is a widely shared view. I call for a debate on the role of independent agencies and their public utterances on ongoing and evolving policy.

Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the issue of the stability treaty. His comments were echoed by a number of other speakers. We welcome the clarity brought to the stability treaty debate. Following last night's meeting in Brussels, we know there will be no change to the text of the treaty. I agree with the Senator who welcomed the NTMA comments, to which Senator Gilroy referred, pointing out that it would be more difficult for Ireland to obtain money on the bond markets with a "No" vote. That clarity on the consequences of a "No" vote is very important. Many of us hope that will boost the "Yes" side.

Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the issue of the Taoiseach participating in a public debate. He is leading and playing an active role in informing people about the stability treaty and in conducting debates daily in the other House. This is the referendum campaign in which most information has been provided. Therefore, people can be sure about what they are voting for and voting can be carried out in an informed way. It is not about party political point scoring but ensuring people have the necessary information to make an informed vote and ensuring we pass the treaty which will be a positive step in Ireland's road to recovery. The Taoiseach is travelling the length and breadth of the country conveying that message and will continue to do so in the coming days before the vote on Thursday.

Senator Ó Domhnaill also raised the matter of third level fees and the issue of funding for third level education. This is a debate that has been sought on a number of occasions. We will seek a debate with the Minister for Education and Skills on higher education generally, during which we can debate the funding issue and other issues around third level. I will advise the House as soon as it has been scheduled.

Senator Ó Domhnaill moved an amendment to the Order of Business to have the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, come to the House today in response to the news that Hewlett Packard is reducing its workforce worldwide. Such a request is premature and we cannot facilitate such a debate today. Therefore, I cannot accept the amendment.

I wholeheartedly agree with Senator Paul Coghlan who pointed out the prudence of the measures we are seeking to adopt in the stability treaty. I agree with him in respect of the welcome clarification offered in Brussels last night.

Senator Mac Conghail raised the issue of projected mergers in some cultural and heritage institutions. I agree with the Senator that the proposed mergers would have negative consequences for cultural and heritage institutions. Like the Senator, I was concerned at the announcement today of the resignation of a very eminent professor of history from the board. I have inquired if the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Deenihan, will come to the House at an early opportunity and I have been informed a debate with him has been arranged for 7 June, the first week after the referendum. It is a planned debate on commemorations.

On a point of order, it is on commemorations and not on the issue I raised today.

Given the eminent history professor's clear linking of the decade of commemorations with his decision to resign, I think we will be able to debate the issues the Senator has raised. I certainly hope we can do that on 7 June. That debate has been arranged. I cannot facilitate it today but I have immense sympathy for the points the Senator made. The mergers were proposed under the previous Government and I hope we can debate them in the House.

On a point of order, they were also proposed by the current Government. The Minister, Deputy Deenihan, is up to his knees in amalgamations.

That debate has been arranged. Senator Norris raised the issue of the LauraLynn Hospice. I also attended the briefing this morning, as did Senator Marie Moloney and others. We should facilitate a debate in which we can discuss the issue of funding for the Laura Lynn Hospice.

Senator Norris also raised the issue of students and free fees — I disagree with some of his views — and health care. As the Senator is aware the Government is the first in the history of the State to be committed to universal health insurance and to ending the two-tier health system. There will be universal support for that.

Senator Susan O'Keeffe raised the issue of Libertas and asked me to condemn the creeping privatisation of politics. I condemn the creeping privatisation of politics unreservedly and would go further and say that if any individual, including an individual behind an organisation such as Libertas, has a conflict of interest because he stands to gain financially from the consequences of a "No" vote, then he should declare that conflict——

Will the Deputy Leader condemn the creep as well as the creeping?

——in order that people are aware of the interest he may have and of the conflict he may have in campaigning for a "No" vote.

One could say the same for a "Yes" vote.

I condemn it unreservedly and anyone who stands to gain from a "No" vote financially, for example, if he or she has a company that trades in currency, should declare that conflict.

Will the Deputy Leader extend that internationally?

Senator Leyden raised the issue of the constituency review.

As he is not present, the Deputy Leader can ignore him.

I should inform the House that Senator Leyden had to attend a committee meeting and conveyed his apologies to me. He asked when the constituency review would be published. I understand it has to be published by the end of June and we will have an opportunity to debate it then. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, will be in the House for a debate on a local government Bill on 6 and 7 June.

Senator Catherine Noone welcomed the news in respect of the treaty negotiations last night, as did Senator Susan O'Keeffe. She also supported the call in respect of the merger of cultural and heritage institutions, an issue I have dealt with.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout referred to the cultural institutions. The Minister, Deputy Deenihan, will be in the House on 7 June for a debate.

Senator Marie Moloney raised the issue of the retirement of John Behan. We all join with the Senator in wishing Mr. Behan well in his retirement and thank him for all his work. She also mentioned the LauraLynn briefing. I agree with the Senator that a rescheduled briefing with the LauraLynn foundation, perhaps in the House, would be useful. We can facilitate a debate in which we would raise that issue.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh raised the matters of the cultural institutions and the Sinn Féin motion in the other House concerning Moore Street. The Senator also sought a debate on the stability treaty. We facilitated such a debate last Thursday and only 12 speakers, including myself, contributed. I discussed with the group leaders at the time the issue of having another debate this week. I was open to that and could have facilitated it. However, following last week's debate, all the group leaders agreed there was no need for another debate. As I said yesterday, next week we are better off out canvassing on whatever side. Neither House is sitting next week given the referendum takes place next week.

Senator Cáit Keane welcomed the comments of the National Treasury Management Agency. I was concerned at the information from the Senator that An Post has been asked to ensure no leaflets are included in the Referendum Commission booklet. I was not aware of that as an issue. I agree it is an issue that should be examined.

Senator Mary White raised the matter of Intel's choice to use Ireland as one of the three locations where it will manufacture its next generation of computer chips. That is very welcome and is a sign of confidence that we will maintain a stable and steady path to recovery.

It is not worried about the treaty.

It is interesting to note that American companies such as Intel, the chambers of commerce and IBEC have all called for a "Yes" vote in the treaty next week.

Senator Mary White also called for the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, to come to the House for a debate on jobs in the computer industry. We can facilitate such a debate but not today. The Government has done a lot in terms of reactivation measures to ensure upskilling of the type mentioned by the Senator. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, in conjunction with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, is restructuring FÁS and unemployment services to ensure more one-to-one connections will be made with those signing on. An increased number of places has been announced for the Springboard programme. We have had JobBridge and the action plan for jobs. A great number of measures are being taken to ensure reactivation and upskilling.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames addressed some of the progress made to address the gap in skills. I agree with her about the gap in information technology skills. The Senator also called for the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to make a statement on the lack of prosecutions. I have a lot of sympathy for the sentiments she has expressed. We all have heard it on the doorsteps many times. People are very angry that none of the bankers, none of those who caused the economy to collapse, has yet been prosecuted. However, it is not a matter on which the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, can make a direct statement. We have an independent Director of Public Prosecutions, which is absolutely right and proper. We also have an independent Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. Like all others present, I deplore the delays in arresting and prosecuting individuals. I am on record in this House calling for the use the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, under which there are a number of more straightforward offences that might well be relevant. I understand there is great complexity in investigating and prosecuting corporate crimes.

The point is that they must be able to inform the people.

I have enormous sympathy for the Senator.

Who is in a position to do so?

We can ask the Minister for Justice and Equality.

They need legal expertise.

Will the Minister then answer the questions?

We can ask him what can be said.

Yes, somebody needs to do it.

We have to understand also that there must be independence for the prosecution authorities.

Absolutely, but somebody must inform the people.

We can all recall the collapse of one high profile prosecution in recent years because a Minister went on air and suggested somebody should be punished, or even convicted and punished.

Do it the right way. That is what I seek.

We must be careful.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson supported Senator Fiach Mac Conghail's amendment to the Order of Business. He spoke about the Vita Cortex agreement; we all welcome the settlement reached. He also called on the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, to intervene in the Lagan Brick dispute. I agree with him that there are a number of disputes and that it is a matter of real concern that companies are not making appropriate and proper redundancy payments to their workers. The specific issue mentioned is one for discussion on the Adjournment with the relevant Minister.

Senator Michael Mullins also spoke on the issue of the non-prosecution of bankers and welcomed the fact that there was clarity from the European Council in Brussels. I agree with him in his comments. I also agree with him in his comments on Sinn Féin, although his question was more suited to it than to me.

Senator Jim D'Arcy raised the issue of PayPal and referred to the comments made on the need for a second language. We are arranging a debate with the Minister for Education and Skills, during the course of which we might ask him to outline his policy and that of his Department on second languages.

Senator Martin Conway spoke eloquently about the lack of prosecutions of those involved in the destruction of the economy. Again, I share his sentiments.

Can we have a debate on it sometime?

We will see if anything can be said publicly within the limits of due process.

Senator John Gilroy mentioned the clarification provided by NTMA which was useful. I will facilitate a debate on the issue in the coming weeks.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate on the announcement by Hewlett-Packard on a major reduction in its workforce be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?

Yes, I cannot agree with the Deputy Leader.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 29.

  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
  • Whelan, John.
  • Zappone, Katherine.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.

Senator Mac Conghail has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate on the proposed restructuring of the National Library and other cultural bodies be taken today. Is the amendment being pressed?

I am pressing the amendment on the basis that there is no guaranteed or confirmed time when the Minister will deal solely with this issue.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 26.

  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Mac Conghail, Fiach.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • van Turnhout, Jillian.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
  • Zappone, Katherine.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Conway, Martin.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • Whelan, John.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Fiach Mac Conghail and Jillian van Turnhout; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.
Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to," put and declared carried.
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