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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jun 2012

Vol. 216 No. 3

Order of Business

The Order of Business is No. 1, Credit Guarantee Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than 1.35 p.m.; No. 2, Criminal Justice (Search Warrants) Bill 2012 — Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 1.45 p.m.; No. 3, Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill 2012 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 2; and No. 4, Gaeltacht Bill 2012 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 3, with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, with the Minister given ten minutes to reply to the debate at the end.

Can the Leader clarify No. 4?

We are taking the Gaeltacht Bill.

Are we taking Second Stage only as the last item of business?

The Cathaoirleach mentioned there is a lot of map reading going on this morning. I commend the Constituency Commission on its work but we cannot forget that it leads to a reduction in representation. I welcome the reunification of Swords and the correction of a number of anomalies in the system. Later, we will debate the Gaeltacht Bill, which represents another diminution of democracy with the removal of the rights of people in Gaeltacht areas to elect their representatives to Údarás na Gaeltachta. My party will oppose it at every Stage.

I raised the issue of the pyrite report two weeks ago and the Leader gave me a response. The report was due at the end of March, then the end of May and has still not been published today, the longest day of the year, 21 June. As I mentioned on numerous occasions, over 70,000 houses on the east coast are potentially affected by this scourge. I have visited houses that are unsafe for people to live in. People have no recourse to insurance companies and there is no action from the Government. I ask the Leader for a broad debate on the environment portfolio with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan. Such a debate could encompass this point. I seek a commitment that the report will be made public before the summer recess. People cannot wait any longer. The Statute of Limitations is six years. The more there are delays with action on the pyrite issue, the more thousands of people will become statute-barred and will be unable to take cases and legal challenges. The average cost of remediating a standard house is in the region of €30,000. Action is urgently needed. I call on the Leader to inquire of the Minister of the Environment, Community and Local Government and to seek a commitment that this report will be published well in advance of the recess, due on 19 July. It is too important for feet-dragging.

I also call for a debate on policing. I have stated on the record of the House that the Government has received a report from its consultants, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The report proposes the closure or downgrading of more than 400 Garda stations. People are only finding out on a drip-drip basis which stations are to be closed or restricted. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has stated he will introduce another list. If anything, the job of the Government is to safeguard its citizens. The reduction in the number of Garda stations throughout the country is not something we support. We need a broad debate in the House with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the Government's plans for policing in rural and urban areas. I realise we have a busy schedule between now and the recess but I call on the Leader to try, if possible, to ask about the Government's plans. Will the Government continue to announce these closures on a staged basis, and announce the closure of 40 stations this month, 40 the next month and a further 40 the following month, or will it produce a full list and let people have advance knowledge of what is taking place, that is to say, that the Government is proceeding with the closure and downgrading of more than 400 Garda stations? I call on the Leader to arrange, at the earliest possible opportunity, for the Minister, Deputy Shatter, to come to the House for a broad debate on the issue.

I join other colleagues from yesterday who called for a debate on children's rights in light of the report, which has generated a great deal of controversy and discussion, on the deaths of children in care who were known to the HSE. Some 196 children died in the course of a decade. Senators van Turnhout, O'Keeffe and others stated yesterday that it is imperative we debate the report and the measures that must be taken to ensure these appalling deaths can be prevented in future. One of the issues debated was the need for a promised new body to take over responsibility for children. There has been a concern that the HSE has been too fragmented at one level but not sufficiently close to the issues at another level and this has been part of the problem as well.

I acknowledge that the Leader has indicated that he will get the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs into the House to debate children's rights generally in the context of the report. It is imperative that we hold the debate before the end of the session. The Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill is before us today on Report and Final Stages. The Bill started in the Seanad and it is one of several important measures taken by the Government to protect children's rights. A more comprehensive debate in this area is important and is certainly of more direct importance to the lives of ordinary people than the debate on Seanad reform and all the heat that it generated yesterday. We need to examine this issue, especially since we are facing a children's rights referendum in the autumn.

I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on a report published today by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, of which I and other colleagues in the House are members. The report is on hearings on the heads of the mediation Bill. The committee heard some interesting and important contributions. Like so many other justice Bills, the mediation Bill will be started in the Seanad but it might be worth our debating the observations made by the justice committee.

Senator O'Brien made some remarks on policing. It is worth noting that the justice committee has set up a sub-committee on policing which, I hope, will report later this year. We might hold a debate on policing when that report comes out to examine the recommendations made by the sub-committee.

Today is not the best day to be a cyclist. I know this because I cycled here in the rain but I urge colleagues to take up cycling during Bike Week 2012. I will e-mail all Deputies and Senators today to invite them to take part in an all-party Oireachtas cycling group.

Probably one of the most important reports to be published is that of Geoffrey Shannon on the rights of children in care. I am not unique as many in the House have raised individual questions and questions on the general picture during the past several sessions of Seanad Éireann. Mr. Shannon and his colleagues have joined up the lines and they have shown a systematic violation of the human rights of very vulnerable children who have been exposed to difficulties in their family situations. It is not an easy situation to address and I do not believe that we should necessarily point the finger at particular case workers. That would be unfair. They are over-stressed and the whole area of children has been under-financed and under-resourced.

My concern is that the costings for this exercise, if we are to fully implement the recommendations, would amount to €20 million and given the economic situation I do not foresee that materialising. I see it fizzling out once again just as the financing of the guardian ad litem legislation for which this House was responsible, to a certain extent fizzled out through lack of resourcing. Perhaps the Leader will convey our concern that the report will not simply be shelved like so many reports but that it will be acted upon.

This is an area where the House plays a significant and important role. We have the opportunity, the time and the lack of partisanship whereby we can debate these issues in the interests of the most vulnerable sections of our society, unlike the other House which is charged with more directly political matters. This is yet another argument for the continuation of the House, as was the very honourable exercise of conscience by three Members who voted against the Whip. That was highly unusual and I salute those people who had such courage. I hope they will not be severely disciplined for it. During the debate yesterday it was interesting to hear people on both sides suggest that in Seanad Éireann there should be a lack of or at least a relaxing of the Whip in order that people could vote on conscience. In many instances people would vote against what I might see as the right thing to do but I have this right and I would like to see it extended to my party colleagues.

I support the remarks of Senator O'Brien on the pyrite situation. I am aware of situations where people were sold local authority houses under the affordable housing scheme. They then discovered that the houses were not properly examined to determine if they were safe and now we know they are not safe. Do these people have any recourse? The local authorities seem to be washing their hands of this issue and it is completely and absolutely wrong.

Finally, I strongly support the remarks of Senator O'Brien on the closure of Garda stations. The community should be involved and the truth should be told. In my area we were deliberately lied to. We were told that Fitzgibbon Street Garda station was being closed for refurbishment. That was not true. We took action as a united community and now at least we have a vestigial presence there and we are going to push to have proper policing in our area because it is so significant in these difficult times. This has been highlighted by the tragic situation where a young boy in a very pleasant County Wicklow town had four of his fingers blown off by picking up a bomb. This was a five year old child whose mother was behind him with another child in her arms. He picked up a pipe bomb and had five fingers blown off. That is intolerable. We need proper policing.

I have been rather stunned to read in The Irish Times of the cases of children and young people who died in State care of non-natural causes between 2000 and 2010. A 12 year old girl died in 2008, a 15 year old girl died in 2000, a 16 year old boy died in 2003, a baby girl died in 2008, a 17 month old boy died in 2003, an 18 year old died in 2002 and a 17 year old male died in 2009. These are only some of the cases. This shows clearly that children in the care of the State have not been safe in our country. Obviously, they were not safe in their families or homes or they would not have been in care in the first place. We must put our full weight behind the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, and the programme of reforms she has started. Early intervention and appropriate care must be given to children in vulnerable families who need our care. Above all, I ask the Leader to ask the Government to expedite as quickly as possible the children’s rights referendum, which will allow for the first time ever that children in care from families where the parents have been married can be adopted. This is huge. It has never happened in this State before. It has always been controversial but, clearly, where families cannot take care of their children, why should the children languish in State care if there are families out there who wish to adopt them? Bring on the children’s rights referendum as soon as possible.

On 10 June the Kernel Capital group, which manages seed capital and venture capital funds for investment in emerging Irish companies, published an open letter in The Sunday Business Post to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the presidents of all the Irish universities and institutes of technology. The open letter has brought much-needed national focus on the need for graduate programmes in our third level colleges focused on international sales.

We have all heard a lot about research, development and innovation that will create and deliver the products we need as a trading nation but all of that counts for nothing if we cannot sell the products. Sales are the engines of growth. To be a major export nation we need to be world class at selling our technology and innovations, yet, relative to the availability of scientists, engineers, barristers, finance experts, legal experts, venture capitalists and other professionals, our innovation-led companies have a critical shortage of world class internationally focused sales expertise. While there are a multitude of marketing programmes and marketing degrees, there are no degrees focused on international sales. Indeed, there is an attitude of mind very prevalent, and which I personally experienced in developing Lír Chocolates, that selling was somehow beneath the status of the marketing graduate.

I commend Kernel Capital on taking the initiative in the national interest in campaigning for international sales specialisation in our third level sector. I ask that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, would come to the House to respond to this proposal.

I join my colleagues who are reflecting in a very rueful fashion on the publication of the report into the child care scandal and the very grave cases which have now been highlighted. We must all work with the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, to ensure that whatever legislation, management systems and reviews are required will not just be reflected upon but acted upon in the very near future. As a country, we are quick to reflect and sometimes deflect anger to others but this report and all its horrors must be like a mirror to the soul of the nation. We must ask ourselves what priorities we have in this country and what sort of management systems and structures we have in place that would allow so many children to be not just marginalised, but to have their lives almost ruined and in some cases to allow children to die.

I suggest that if this was the church rather than the State, we would be having a march already. We have to respond with the same strength, anger and sense of purpose that we have in regard to the abuses in the church. The State is not on trial; the State is guilty. We all have a duty to respond and to ensure that the lives of the children and future children of this country will not be blighted in the way so many children's lives have been blighted in past generations.

The good news is that last night the Construction Contracts Bill passed through Second Stage in the Dáil. I mention this as it is a Bill that was initiated in the Seanad over two years ago. It now goes to the Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform. Although that is not our baby, anything we can do in the next couple of weeks to get that Bill into that sub-committee and then passed so it can come back to the Seanad and become law should be done.

This is a Bill to protect subcontractors from some of the business dealings that have been going on over the years. It is essential we get it passed as it has taken over two years to get this far. We can get it passed in the next few weeks but, as there are only five weeks of the session to go, I ask the Leader and the Cathaoirleach to do all they can to encourage the passage of that Bill through the Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform in order that it comes back to this House before the session finishes.

Senator Mary White has just raised a topic that is worthy of consideration. A lot of university time is spent on various subjects but not the subject of actually bringing something to sale, particularly technology and innovation at international level. There is a need to do that and I support wholeheartedly the words of Senator White. It seems there is still a tradition in the universities of aiming at some of the softer, more traditional subjects, whereas bringing something to the point of sale is critical. It is amazing the number of times it happens in business that a product is marketed but nobody is asked to buy it in the end. That is the process we need if we are to succeed in the years ahead. We can succeed and the topic Senator White has introduced is one I would love to see brought to the fore.

I join other Senators who have raised the issue of children in care. I have every confidence in the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, who has been very proactive in the first Department dealing with children's affairs. She has a background in social care and working with children so this is in good hands and we look forward to seeing the issues dealt with. Hopefully, this will never happen again.

I want to raise the issue of participatory budgeting. Will the Leader ask the two Ministers involved, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, to introduce, as a pilot project initially, a programme of participatory budgeting? This is where the citizens themselves decide at local level their priorities for the funding of their areas, including local authority areas. Having started off in Brazil, this has mushroomed in many countries in Europe and is now used in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, the United Kingdom and other countries. It is not in every municipality in those countries but is in many. I would like to see it start as a pilot project in one or two areas. In light of the fact local government will be raising money through property tax and water tax, it would bring transparency for the people and a right to have a decision as to where their money is spent.

At present, too much decision making is at executive level in local authorities. I would like to see this introduced as part of the reform of local government which the Minister, Deputy Hogan, is bringing forward. Included in that reform, I ask that we would look at participatory budgeting. Fine Gael has raised this before and I hope it can be implemented, particularly given the fact local government will be raising money. It would bring transparency and prioritise what local people want.

WB Yeats said this is no country for old men. At present, it does not seem to be a country for young men, young women or young families either. I call on the Leader to make time available as soon as possible for a discussion on youth unemployment, as I have done previously although it has not yet happened. Youth unemployment is currently running at approximately 30% in this State and, realistically, that figure would be a lot higher if it was not for the thousands of young people who are emigrating every year.

This cannot be lumped in with a general discussion on jobs with the Minister.

It is an issue that will have huge repercussions for the future. If we do not deal with it, it will have a boomerang effect, economically, socially and politically.

The Government's jobs plan document mentions youth only twice. It is clear that we need some new ideas on the issue, so I would like the Seanad to discuss this matter as soon as possible. It is something that the EU in particular tells us it is focused upon, but no concrete action has happened to date. Four months since the arrival of the youth action team from the European Commission we have not seen any concrete plans forthcoming. Next week in the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe we will be discussing a report on the implications of the financial crisis on the young generation. One of the report's recommendations is to ensure that youth policies are put high on the political agenda and receive adequate funding. This House should discuss this topic as soon as possible. Some 70,000 young people are currently finishing their leaving certificate exams, which is the same number who are emigrating every year, so it would be timely to discuss the situation facing them and the 30% of young people who are currently unemployed.

I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business on which Senator Ó Clochartaigh will elaborate. The amendment calls for the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, to attend the House to discuss the current situation that is unfolding around the State with regard to turf cutting.

I welcome yesterday's announcement by the Minister for Justice and Equality on the publication of the heads of the Criminal Justice (Corruption) Bill. It is a novel and worthwhile idea to lay out the Bill's general scheme before detailed drafting of the legislation. It will go to the justice committee and other interested parties, including I hope this House. The legislation takes on board the important recommendations of the Mahon tribunal report. We could have a useful debate on it here at an opportune moment, perhaps even before the justice committee has concluded its consideration of the Bill. We are all aware, anecdotally at least, of the way in which money was sloshing around and how public officials and others succumbed. I am referring to developer-led projects in provincial towns where managers may only have been thinking in terms of increased rates. Towns were crucified as a result and have suffered so badly all over the place.

We could have a useful consultation with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government as to how he is treating recommendations contained in the report and how they could affect local authorities. I ask the Leader to arrange for such a debate at a suitable juncture.

Is mian liom tagairt a dhéanamh i dtaobh an Bhille Gaeltachta a bheidh os comhair an Tí um thráthnóna. Bille fíor thábhachtach é seo a bhaineann le stádas na Gaeilge, ní hamháin sa Ghaeltacht ach taobh amuigh di fosta.

The Second Stage of the Gaeltacht Bill 2012 is before the House later today. It deeply disappointments me, however, that the scheduling of this House gives little opportunity for any of the Irish language organisations, or people in Gaeltacht areas, to make their views known to Members of the Oireachtas before Committee Stage next Tuesday. Members of this House only have from 6 p.m. today until 11 a.m. tomorrow to table amendments to the legislation. That time is insufficient so I am calling for Committee Stage to be put back by at least two weeks to allow us to scrutinise the Bill and reflect on what the Minister has to say. He may or may not provide reassurances, but democracy should at least prevail. If the Leader indicates that the Minister is unwilling to do that, I will be tabling an amendment to the Order of Business.

Can the Senator clarify his proposal?

I am proposing an amendment that there be a two week interval between Second and Committee Stages.

The holding of Committee Stage is decided at the end of Second Stage.

No. The schedule for next week has been circulated and Committee Stage is clearly on the schedule for next Tuesday. I therefore propose that Second Stage should not be finished today.

We cannot vote on next week's Business today.

We can propose that Second Stage is not finished today.

Is Senator Ó Domhnaill making a proposal?

I will be guided by the Cathaoirleach but I propose that Second Stage could run into next week.

That Second Stage be adjourned today?

I welcome the news this morning that the constituency report has been published. The good news is that, for the first time since 2004, County Leitrim has been reunited. There will be winners and losers in all of this but it is good news for the people of Leitrim. They will have an opportunity in future to elect a Deputy from among themselves.

Tacaím go hiomlán leis an méid atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill. An t-am deireanach a raibh Bille Gaeltachta againn ná 1956 agus táimid píosa fada ag fanacht leis an mBille seo, Bille na Gaeltachta. Bille tábhachtach é seo a bhaineann le todhchaí na Gaeltachta atá ag teacht os comhair an Tí, ach ní bhfuair muid cóip dó ach dhá láó shin, mar gheall ar moill le aistriúchán. Tá an Bille le plé tráthnóna inniu, tá na leasuithe Coiste le bheith istigh maidin amárach agus tá sé ráite linn go bpléifear Céim an Choiste agus Céim na Tuarascála an tseachtain seo chugainn agus go mbeidh gach rud socraithe. Níl sin inghlactha. Tá gá le níos mó ama a thabhairt le plé iomlán a dhéanamh ar an mBille seo.

Ba mhaith liom tacú leis an leasú atá molta ag mo chomhghleacaí, an Seanadóir Kathryn Reilly ar an Riar Gnó. I would like to second the proposal to amend the Order of Business. We have had an absolute debacle overnight in Clonmoylan in County Galway where there has been a stand-off between gardaí and turf cutters. I call on the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, to attend this House if he can take time out from his charity walks, book launches and writing his memoirs. He should debate the really serious issue of turf cutting that is currently unfolding. The Minister made promises during a Private Members' Bill debate that he would act in a much more equitable fashion. Apparently, however, he could not keep those promises in Europe and they have since been renegued upon.

That is not correct.

It is important for the Minister to come here today to clarify what exactly he will do to resolve this serious issue. We want the turf cutters' rights upheld so that they can continue to cut turf in their own areas, as they have done traditionally. They are not interested in moving to different bogs, nor do they want compensation. They want to continue cutting turf in their home areas, as they have done traditionally. They need to be able to do so now that their incomes have diminished and the cost of living is increasing. It is appalling the way in which the State has dealt with this issue. We seem to have plenty of gardaí to send to peaceful protests and on to bogs, but when it comes to looking after older people in their homes or having community gardaí on the streets, they do not seem to be available. It is disgraceful.

That is very unfair to the Garda Síochána. It is outrageous.

I welcome this morning's report from the Irish universities' nutrition alliance. This week we had hearings by the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on cancer and heard calls for changes in our lifestyles, including the way we eat and drink. The IUNA report found that 23% of children aged two to four years, are now obese. This is a serious problem. While we have started this good work with the Seanad Public Consultation Committee's hearing this week, we should continue to put pressure on and keep the matter before this House. We must not lose the momentum that we built up on Tuesday. The hearings earlier this week show that this House is working well and in an open manner. The report containing these figures was funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in conjunction with the Department of Health. We should keep this joined-up thinking between Departments to the fore as we continue our work.

I wish to join with my colleague from County Leitrim, Senator Comiskey, in welcoming the recommendations of the constituency commission, in that Leitrim has been reunited politically. I sat on the Government benches, where Senator Comiskey is now, when the previous constituency commission report was debated in this House. During the debate on the previous constituency commission report, I made it clear that if given a free vote I would not support its recommendations because of the shabby treatment of Leitrim by successive Administrations during the past 40 or 50 years. I welcome that this wrong has been corrected. We already have a Deputy in the constituency. It was more a quirk of the electoral system than anything else. The county has now been reunited politically and this should give the people of Leitrim great confidence going forward.

I call on the Leader to ask the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, to take action on the recently published report on large-scale obesity among young people, which is proving to be a matter of great national concern. The report makes for stark reading. Its conclusions are that children as young as three and four years are grossly overweight. While the State does not have any direct involvement in ensuring that parents act responsibly when it comes to providing proper nutrition for their children it does have a role to play in the area of soft drink and crisp manufacturing, the manufacturers of which have managed to ingratiate themselves with school authorities across the country in a variety of different guises by way of promotion of their goods as a healthy option. As stated in the report to which I am referring they are not a healthy option.

The Minister should do all he can to encourage schools and, by extension, parents to take a more responsible attitude to their children's nutrition. Those of us who are parents will know that it is easy to say we should ensure children eat proper food. However, children have their own way of consuming food. They tend to opt for the worst possible options rather than the best ones. I am not for one moment simplifying this issue but I do believe the State — I am sure the Leader will agree with me — should play a role in this regard. I would hate to see this report gathering dust on a shelf. It is not the first on this issue but it is the latest, which points for the first time to the fact that this problem in not so much one among teenagers and adolescents but among children of a very young age.

I ask that the Leader raise this issue with the Minister for Education and Skills given the direct involvement of schools on this issue. If the Minister is willing to attend the House, the Leader might consider providing for a wide ranging debate on healthy eating and living. I accept this may not be relevant to only the Minister for Education and Skills but could also come under the auspices of the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall. The Leader will understand the point I am trying to make. I second the proposed amendment to the Order of Business.

There appears to be some confusion about the amendment.

We have rectified it.

The amendment reads: "That the debate on Second Stage of An Bille Gaeltachta 2012 shall adjourn after two hours."

Is Senator Ó Domhnaill moving that amendment?

Senator Ó Domhnaill moved the amendment and I have seconded it.

With regard to An Bille Gaeltachta 2012, while the Seanad agenda and availability of the Minister may dictate that it be taken next week, I believe it would be reasonable that people are given an opportunity to review it. I am not trying to be controversial but I would welcome if that could be facilitated.

The report into the death of children in the child protection agency is appalling. However, I am comforted by the statement by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, that money will be made available to progress the report's findings and to ensure what happened in the past in the child protection agency never occurs in this State again. The report on obesity puts on paper the problem of obesity in our society, of which we are all aware. This is a delicate issue to address with children given the enormous psychological implications for parents of coming down hard on their children in terms of what they are eating. It is a complex area. I believe there is a need for a public awareness campaign to educate parents on this issue. It is tantamount to child abuse when a child of one or two years is overweight. We need to educate society on this issue. A child's relationship with food is developed by the time he or she reaches, six, seven or eight years of age. I join with other Senators in calling for a fulsome debate on healthy living. On a wider level, we need this to be something the Government is pushing hard with schools, youth organisations and organisations which educate parents.

A conference is being held in this Chamber next Monday on the matter of abolishing or reforming Seanad Éireann, which will be attended by "invited Senators". Perhaps the Leader will tell us the Senators who have been invited to defend this House. I express the hope that this does not set a precedent. Also, perhaps a group seeking to abolish Dáil Éireann might be facilitated in the Dáil Chamber for the purpose of putting forward such views.

For the information of the House, the conference was organised by Dublin City University. The Chamber was made available for the occasion, on request. The House has little involvement in the matter, except for the holding of a function for those involved by the Leader. I understand Senator Bacik will also chair some of the proceedings.

I found it frustrating during the past couple of months having to listen to elected Members of the Seanad and Dáil call on people not to uphold the law of the land.

This has happened time and again, including in regard to the septic tank charge and payment of taxes. Some Members have exhorted their supporters not to pay the household charge. Sinn Féin has again in this House this morning misrepresented in a rather scurrilous manner the position of the Minister with regard to turf cutting.

The Minister made the deals.

Senator Gilroy without interruption, please.

If Sinn Féin would research the position of the Minister rather than take its political lead from people such as Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan it would be better informed.

We do not need to take our lead from anybody.

Senator Gilroy without interruption, please.

A Member of the Dáil appeared to be indicating out on Clonmoylan bog this morning that gardaí are responsible for criminal damage, from which Sinn Féin has taken its lead——

Do you have a question for the Leader, Senator?

That is extraordinarily frustrating. However, it leads me to another point I wish to make this morning which again relates to Sinn Féin. I would like to know once and for all if Sinn Féin recognises the legitimacy of this State. One look at its website——

A question for the Leader, please.

(Interruptions).

I have taken at look at Sinn Féin's website. There is not one single reference to the Republic of Ireland as a country. The only country to which it refers is one called the 26 Counties.

The Sinn Féin website is not relevant to the Order of Business. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

For all my criticism of Sinn Féin, there is one voice of reason among them, namely Senator Reilly, whose call for a full debate on the serious problem of youth employment I support. As stated by Senator Reilly, youth employment here stands at 30%. The figure for Greece is 50%, a road we do not want to go down.

I second Senator Ó Domhnaill's amendment to the Order of Business. I again call for a debate on mortgage arrears. Reports in today's newspapers state that the banks have been given the go ahead by the Central Bank to offer split mortgages to people in distress. To take the good out of it, it seems an additional interest rate will be applied to the warehoused part of the mortgage. It is almost a year since the Family Home Bill 2011 came before the House. Other Bills have come before the other House, and all of these were suppressed by the Government. What we need is a Government-led solution. A bank-led solution will always look after the bottom line first. We need something that puts the people of Ireland front and centre and this is not happening as we have seen in the reports in today's newspapers on the split mortgage idea. I call for a debate on this. We also need action. There has been much commentary on the Order of Business and in other debates in the past year. I would like to see some tangible results with a Government-led initiative rather than one led by the banks. When this debate takes place it is my ardent wish that the Government Members will be permitted to participate in it.

I wish to refer to the unfortunate stand-off at Cloonmoylan bog. It saddens me very much that the situation has arisen. As previous speakers have stated, the rule of law must be upheld. It is unfortunate that a political football is being made of this issue by a particular Deputy.

The Minister is well able to play football.

Senator Mullins without interruption.

In my view the particular Deputy is very seriously misleading people. He would want to reflect on whether serious financial consequences could arise for any farmers involved in breaking the law if it were to impact on their farm payments. This must be considered by everybody. While we do not like the EU directive, it is in place and the country stands to be fined €25,000 per day. We have a responsibility to uphold the rule of law. A few months ago there was a window of opportunity for some negotiated concessions from Europe on the issue as initiated by the Minister, Deputy Deenihan. However, the opportunity was not taken and people were badly advised not to go along with the proposals put forward by the Minister. We are in a most unfortunate situation. People feel passionately about cutting turf and their right to do so. We must try to balance this with upholding the rule of law. The previous Government had 14 years to sort out the issue but it did nothing about it. It was left to the incoming Government to do so. Now we are feeling the flak because of what is happening. I would like to see a cooling-off period in which everybody withdraws from Cloonmoylan bog and we consider whether negotiations on the concessions discussed by the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, can be re-opened. I hope the rule of law will be upheld, the Garda will be supported, common sense will prevail and no serious injuries or damage is caused.

Will the Leader consider rolling debates on the economic situation? This morning, I was alarmed to see an economist is predicting Ireland will slip back into recession. Any reasonable person would conclude that we are facing stagnation in the medium term. When the crisis broke there was much identification of the procyclical policies which gave rise to the depth of the economic crisis, such as tax incentives for property and trying to drive growth at a time it was already at a fast pace. The corollary of this is now happening as the Government's procyclical policies are driving the economy in the other direction. I know this is probably based on advice from officials — I presume the same officials who gave advice previously on the procyclical policies to drive growth — and they are now looking to consolidate stagnation and the recession. While there has been much talk about charges and increased financial imposition on households, undoubtedly it will prolong the current crisis. I suggest to the Leader that consideration should be given to having expertise in various areas of economic development involved in our deliberations. Whether this is done in our ordinary plenary sessions or as part of the public consultation, which is a good initiative, there is a role for the Seanad in this area. There are many voices here, probably more than there are in the Dáil, who have insights. We may have different views on it. By debating these issues in a very open way we are more likely to come to a solution. I urge the Leader to consider this. Without more enlightened policies nationally and at EU level we will consign a generation of people to difficult financial situations. While I took a different view on the leaking of the troika report, it is important that it is considered. These types of issues need to be fully flushed out and debated if we are to find solutions.

I wish to raise the issue of the report published yesterday on the deaths of children. I am involved in a small way with a centre dealing with young people who drop out of the education system. It is a life centre which looks after 15 to 18 young people. Its funding falls between the Department of Education and Skills, the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Children. Previously we were very fast to criticise religious orders. However, the only funding being provided to keep the centre going is €50,000 per annum from a religious order. All of the young people have been involved in either drugs or drink and they have no family support at home. People work on a voluntary basis, including more than 18 qualified teachers. The report published yesterday showed people fall between a number of agencies with tragic results. Unfortunately, certain young people do not fit into the education system. There is not a huge number of them, but the number is significant and we need to take action on it. It is important that one Department takes responsibility for it. When we debate the report, this issue needs to be dealt with and decisions need to be taken so we do not have a repeat of what has happened in the past ten years. This matter is urgent and it should not be left for another report. Now is the time to take action on it. The report will be debated by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children this morning. I hope the publication of the report will bring about positive results. What has occurred is frightening and it is important that it is not repeated in the next ten years. It is important that we debate the issue as soon as possible.

I support everything Senator Burke stated. He is quite right.

I welcome the fact that the Minister for Education and Skills has responded to the report on patronage and pluralism in primary schooling. While signalling my concern about any excessive attempt by the State to control the flow of information to parents in various urban areas and areas with an oversupply of Catholic primary schools, such as Tuam in Galway and Malahide in Dublin, it is good that parents are to be surveyed and that it will take place in an orderly fashion which will canvass people's opinions on what model of school patronage they want for their area and children. I was surprised and concerned to read in The Irish Times today that town hall meetings and activities that might whip up a media frenzy are to be prohibited. I was also surprised to read in the same article that no public meetings will be allowed. As far as I know, freedom of association is guaranteed by the Constitution and people are perfectly entitled to organise meetings off their own bat. The State has no business interfering with this. If what this report is referring to is that there will be a particular structured consultation initiated by the Department in consultation with patronage bodies and that this consultation will not involve public meetings, that is the State’s business. However, it seems rather bizarre to hear talk of the prohibition of public meetings. People are entitled to meet on their own terms and to discuss issues as they see fit. If this forms part of the context in which people will be canvassed for their views on school patronage, I for one would have no problem with it and would be extremely critical of any attempts to curb it. This of course is rooted in the report on patronage and pluralism, which contained among its recommendations the rather unhelpful statist idea that the flow of information should be controlled. That may be how things work in a statist democracy but not in a genuinely pluralist democracy. The Minister should be on notice that there will be opposition if there is any excessive attempt to curb the flow of information.

Having listened to Senator Walsh's earlier contribution on the state of the economy and the possibility it may be returning to recession, I refer to the most recent proposals from the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, on speeding, driving in general and changing the penalty points system. However, I draw the Leader's attention to one specific issue on which he should contact the Minister, namely, learner drivers who must, by virtue of their employment, drive to work unaccompanied. Last weekend, I met one such person, who is a second-year apprentice electrician, who may be obliged to drive to work to Cork on one day, possibly to Limerick on the next day and perhaps to Kilkenny on another day. He told me clearly that the only way in which he could avoid breaking the law was to ask his father to get out of bed at 6 a.m. to sit with him in the car on the drive to Cork. His father would then be obliged to sit in the car all day and then accompany him home from work. This is a time when efforts are being made to get the economy back on its feet and when young people are getting back into employment. While they are trying to do it for themselves, by so doing they are breaking the law because they cannot get to work. I ask the Leader to bring this matter to the Minister's attention. There must be some provision in law whereby a person travelling to and from work is allowed to do so by virtue of a letter from his or her employer to state that within certain specified hours, the person in question is travelling to or from work. This is a very important issue for young, responsible drivers who do not go out at night to speed or to get into their cars having taken drink, but who need to be in their cars at 6 a.m. to get to their place of work to get on in life and to enable the country to recover. I ask the Leader to bring this matter to the Minister's attention and to ascertain whether legislative provision may be made to deal with this matter. I understand this has been done in other countries and could be done here, if so desired.

I welcome the recommendation by the Constituency Commission that County Leitrim once again be united in a single constituency. This is to be welcomed and I condemned its division the last time around. It is regrettable that to achieve this unification, it has been necessary to take in parts of County Donegal and in particular, I regret it is proposed to take in 13,100 people who are resident in west Cavan. This means everything west of a line from Ballananagh, located just three and a half miles from Cavan town, to Belturbet will from henceforth be part of the Sligo-Leitrim constituency. I consider this proposal to be ludicrous. It makes no sense and to the best of my knowledge means that for the first time in the history of the State, four counties will be represented within a single constituency. The proposal for a constituency comprising counties Sligo and Leitrim, County Donegal from Donegal town to Bundoran and everything in County Cavan west of a line from Belturbet to Ballananagh is ludicrous and disenfranchises 13,100 people in west Cavan. I will oppose it at every opportunity I am given.

The Leader of the Opposition and quite a number of other Members have mentioned the Constituency Commission report. As it only has been published within the past half an hour, I do not propose to go to into any of the changes contained therein. However, I am sure Members will have an opportunity to discuss it at a later stage.

As for Bille na Gaeltachta, at a meeting of leaders approximately a fortnight ago, I indicated this Bill would come before the House at this time. Last week, I again announced in the House during the Order of Business that Bille na Gaeltachta would be coming into the House. Consequently, there has been ample opportunity for Members opposite to take into consideration representations from any organisations to enable the framing of amendments. I have no intention of stifling debate on this Bill. As is evident from today's Order of Business, the Bill has been ordered and Members can speak on it for as long as they wish. I have not specified a concluding time and this Second Stage debate can finish whenever Members stop speaking on it. There is ample opportunity to have a debate on this issue. Moreover, there has been ample opportunity to table amendments for Committee Stage and there still is an opportunity to so do. If necessary, Members can have two sessions next week on Committee Stage and the Report Stage of the Bill probably will be taken the week after. Consequently, there has been and will be, ample opportunity to table amendments.

Members do not know and cannot pre-empt what the Minister will say but must wait.

The Leader, without interruption.

Members opposite have the Bill.

That is the position in respect of the aforementioned Bill and I do not propose to change the Order of Business thereon.

Senator Darragh O'Brien has mentioned the pyrite report several times and has asked that it be published before the summer recess. I have relayed this request numerous times to the Department and I hope action will be taken on this serious matter.

Senator Bacik and eight other Members raised the issue of a debate on children's rights and the report of the independent review group on the deaths of children. Eight Members spoke on this subject today and seven others spoke on it yesterday. While I responded comprehensively to the matter yesterday, there is no doubt but that the report's findings are deeply disturbing. Services often were willing but fragmented and were not comprehensive in their responses. The question must arise as to how, after a period of so much and such unprecedented economic prosperity, the country was left with a child protection service in need of such reform. If ever evidence was required of the scale of the challenge the present Government must face, this report provides it. If ever evidence was required as to the reason and need for an utterly reformed system of State care intervention, this report provides it. If ever evidence was required of the need to take child protection away from the HSE, wherein up to recently it was lost, and to establish a new agency, the proposed child family support agency, than this report emphasises it. Members will have a debate on the issue. I have raised the matter with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, who is quite willing to come in here and debate that report. It is simply a matter of fixing a date. However, I assure Members that this debate will be held within the next couple of weeks as the Minister is anxious to attend. Moreover, I assure Members, including Senator Norris, who have mentioned the possibility that this report, like others, might be left to rot on the shelf that this will not be the case. Quite a number of the report's recommendations already have been acted on and already have been implemented. I mentioned such cases on yesterday's Order of Business. I assure Members the Government is treating this report seriously and already has acted on some recommendations. Moreover, I am sure that all its recommendations will be implemented. I note 260 additional social workers also have been recruited.

Senator White raised the important issue of the Kernel Capital letter to The Sunday Business Post. I agree with Senator White that sales are the engines of growth of any economy. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, has attended the House on several occasions but we can ask him to attend again, on an ongoing basis, to discuss unemployment, specifically, youth unemployment, the area mentioned by Senator Reilly. We will endeavour to have the Minister attend the House to discuss those items. He has been a regular visitor to the House but I entirely agree there is a need for the House to deal with those specific items.

Senator Quinn raised the Construction Contracts Bill, Second Stage of which, I am very pleased to note, was passed in the other House. It is a matter for that House now to deal with on Committee Stage but if there is anything I can do to expedite it, I will do so. Presumably it will return to this House before the end of the summer but I cannot give the Senator any guarantees.

Senator Keane mentioned the report on participatory budgeting in the context of dealing with it at local government level. We will ask the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, to the House at a later stage to speak on the whole issue of local government reform. He attended previously but is willing to return at which time that matter can be discussed.

Senator Paul Coghlan spoke about the Criminal Justice (Corruption) Bill, a very important piece of legislation, which has been published by the Government. It is very important that the public has confidence in its elected representatives, public officials, and so on. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice will debate this in early course and I hope the House may debate it, even prior to Second Stage, if necessary, and if we can have the Minister present to discuss it.

I have addressed the matter raised by Senator Ó Domhnaill in regard to Bille na Gaeltachta.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh raised another amendment to the Order of Business which, again, I do not propose to accept. It referred to the turf-cutting situation concerning which EU directives are in place. The Minister has been very conciliatory in his actions in this entire regard. The gardaí are only doing their duty and are upholding the law, which is what we expect them to do. I regret that legislators are advocating the breaking of the law. That is not acceptable. I agree with Senator Gilroy that the upholding of the law is of paramount importance and it is despicable for legislators to advocate breaking the law in any way.

Senators Comiskey and Mooney spoke about the political reunification of County Leitrim which I am sure all people from that county will be delighted to see.

It is as significant as the Berlin Wall.

On the other hand, Senator Wilson, from County Cavan, is not in agreement with the Boundary Commission's report on this matter.

Senators MacSharry and Walsh referred to a debate on the economy. We have had a number of such debates and the Minister for Finance will attend the House on 3 July for two hours of debate. Senator Walsh also mentioned that the Seanad Public Consultation Committee could be used for this purpose. If my memory serves me correctly, a number of Senators were to come forward with proposals for public consultation and the House was to consider something of this kind and make a draft but that was about a month ago and I have heard nothing further. Perhaps something will emerge in the coming weeks.

Senator Mullen spoke about patronage and pluralism. The Minister for Education and Skills is willing to engage with all interested parties on this issue and I am glad he came to this House to discuss that subject at length. There were some very valuable contributions from Members. The Minister is certainly not afraid to engage with people on the issue.

Senator Landy referred to road safety and the new legislation that proposes changes to the Road Traffic Bill. The Senator can make submissions to the Minister on the subject. I am sure that when the Bill issues the Senator will make a contribution similar to the one he made on the original Bill.

Senator Wilson now has four counties in his constituency. I have not seen this happen before but I am sure we will have an opportunity to discuss the Boundary Commission's report.

I do not know what they were thinking.

Cuir mé ceist faoi thuairisc PwC, the report on Garda stations.

That issue, as mentioned by the Deputy Leader, will be addressed by the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.

I referred to the meeting in the Chamber on Monday, about the abolition or reform of the Seanad.

I apologise for not coming back to the Senator. I know very little——

I hoped the Leader would represent us, as a reformer and a sturdy defender of the House, against a media person who, as the Leader pointed out at the time, never attended or reported here. Who will represent us? I hope it will be Senator Cummins.

I know very little about the conference. Seemingly, we gave permission to have it in the House. It has been organised by DCU and I was invited to chair a session at 5 p.m. Other than that, I know nothing and was not involved in the organisation in any way. I was asked to chair that session and host a reception and am doing so but I cannot tell the Senator anything else about it, unfortunately.

On a point of order. Although the House is public property and it is perhaps appropriate that it should be made available for a conference, the subject matter——

It was agreed by the Committee on Privilege and Procedures.

——of the conference makes it akin to allowing the UN Assembly be made available to the rebels in Syria. We should be conscious of that.

The CPP made the decision to give the House for the conference.

The CPP needs to be more sensitive and take more control of how the Chamber is going to be used. Of course, it is public property and it is useful that it be used for public debate. However, to use it for that particular debate plays into the discussion we had all day yesterday about pursuing the Government agenda, manipulating a process to guarantee the abolition of this House. It is not democratic and it is not correct.

Senator Landy has a point of order.

I support Senator MacSharry's statement. We spent some hours in the Chamber yesterday and I placed my vote yesterday in order to stand by the future of this House, in regard to the proposed reform of the Constitution. To find out — and only accidentally, by hearing it from Senator Barrett last night — that this Chamber was going to be used in a debate where the subject matter is the future of this Seanad, with no Member of this House——

Senator, you spoke already on the Order of Business.

That is disgraceful. It should not be so used. The CPP should be called to account on this matter.

Resume your seat, please.

It should not offer this Chamber for discussions on this matter when none of us will be present.

Resume your seat. Senator Mooney has a point of order.

Can the Chair guide me on this? The CPP seems to——

(Interruptions).

Senator Landy, please respect the Chair.

I respect the Chair.

It seems the CPP made a decision that was not conveyed to the membership of this House. In that sense, can this House overturn the decision of the CPP? Have we the right——

The decision was made by the CPP.

Have we any rights, as Members of this House, to decide how the House is used? I fully agree with Senator Landy's point. I do not agree with this.

There should be a vote on this and that vote should overturn the decision of the CPP.

There cannot be a vote on it. The decision was made by the CPP.

There should be democracy. This is an appalling decision.

Senator Reilly has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That the debate on the turf-cutting debacle be taken today". Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 18; Níl, 29.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
  • O’Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O’Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Trevor Ó Clochartaigh and Kathryn Reilly; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.

Senator Mooney has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That the debate on Second Stage of An Bille Gaeltachta 2012 shall adjourn after two hours." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 29.

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.

Níl

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 18.

  • Bacik, Ivana.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brennan, Terry.
  • Burke, Colm.
  • Coghlan, Eamonn.
  • Coghlan, Paul.
  • Comiskey, Michael.
  • Cummins, Maurice.
  • D’Arcy, Jim.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Gilroy, John.
  • Harte, Jimmy.
  • Hayden, Aideen.
  • Healy Eames, Fidelma.
  • Heffernan, James.
  • Henry, Imelda.
  • Higgins, Lorraine.
  • Keane, Cáit.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Landy, Denis.
  • Moloney, Marie.
  • Moran, Mary.
  • Mulcahy, Tony.
  • Mullen, Rónán.
  • Mullins, Michael.
  • Noone, Catherine.
  • O’Donnell, Marie-Louise.
  • O’Keeffe, Susan.
  • O’Neill, Pat.
  • Sheahan, Tom.

Níl

  • Barrett, Sean D.
  • Cullinane, David.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • MacSharry, Marc.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.
  • Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
  • Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
  • O'Brien, Darragh.
  • O'Donovan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ned.
  • Power, Averil.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Reilly, Kathryn.
  • Walsh, Jim.
  • White, Mary M.
  • Wilson, Diarmuid.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe; Níl, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson.
Question declared carried.
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