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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Oct 2012

Vol. 217 No. 11

Adjournment Matters

Bank Branch Closures

I thank the Minister of State for taking the motion, which refers to a relevant and prevalent issue concerning the Mizen peninsula. Our former, long-established colleague, P.J. Sheehan, was in these Houses for almost 30 years, representing Goleen and the Mizen peninsula. If he were still in the other House, there is no doubt that this branch in Schull or Ballydehob would not be closed, but sin scéal eile. The peninsula is very remote. Normally, it has a population of approximately 5,500 souls. As a result of tourism in the summer, particularly because of the sailing centre in Schull, it swells to probably double that figure.

To add salt to the wounds, not only has AIB decreed that the branch in Schull is to close, but the branch in the neighbouring village of Ballydehob is to close as well. Some people living in remote parts of the Mizen must travel by car for one hour to get to the nearest town of Skibbereen, where AIB proposes to relocate its business.

This is very unfair.

It is also worth noting that a survey on the demographics of the Mizen Peninsula undertaken by the HSE shows that the region has one of the highest number of people aged over 60. This decision will damage the status of the peninsula and of Schull in particular, which is a tourist hub and is famous for its fishing, its connection with Cape Clear and the Fastnet lighthouse, and its successful sailing college. This decision is a kick and blow to the small businesses in that area, the shops and restaurants, the pubs and those involved in farming. At a recent meeting in Schull, about 500 people from all parts of the peninsula begged AIB to keep its Schull branch open. I know these are difficult times but the proposal by AIB to provide a mobile banking service is a very weak alternative and a poor substitute. In my view, the provision of a mobile banking service is a security risk. A cost-benefit analysis on the retention of the Schull branch as opposed to the cost of security and staff for a mobile unit would show there is not a lot to say. In these circumstances I can see that it was probably commercially correct that the Ballydehob branch should go - although not everyone would agree with me - because it was only just ticking over. However, I plead with the Minister of State to consider putting as much pressure as possible on AIB to have Schull retained for five days a week, at least in the summer months when it is a very busy branch, and this could be reduced to three days in the winter months. Dublin and other major urban centres have buses, Luas, DART and a good taxi service, but many people in the Mizen have none of these transport options. The younger generation know all about online banking but many people over 55 - this is probably the case throughout the country and not just in west Cork - are not in a position to avail of online banking. The Mizen peninsula is a remote rural area without any banking facilities. I is almost 40 miles in length and to leave it without banking facilities is an awful blow to the communities who live there, especially the people in farming, fishing, tourism, small businesses, pubs and restaurants. I am pleading with the Minister of State to reconsider the position and at least to ask the bank to look at Schull in particular where the branch service could be retained full-time during the summer months and three days a week in the winter. We have lost two Garda stations and at a recent meeting of the group which monitors crime in the peninsula, it was noted there had been an increase of break-ins and crime in the peninsula, which in the view of the community is as a result of the loss of the Garda services. The loss of the banking service will entice people to keep money at home and will put out a welcome sign to the criminal gangs of Cork and beyond who would love to come and harass old people and take their life savings.

I thank Senator O'Donovan, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, for raising this matter. As the Senator will be aware, and notwithstanding the fact the State is the significant shareholder in AIB, the Government must ensure the bank is run on a commercial, cost-effective and independent basis so as to maintain the value of the bank as an asset to the State, as per the memorandum on economic and financial policies agreed with the European Commission, the ECB and the IMF. A relationship framework has been specified which defines the nature of the relationship between the Minister for Finance and the bank. This framework stipulates that the Minister has no role in the commercial decisions of the bank, with these decisions remaining the responsibility of the board and management of the institution.

As the Government has stated and the Senator will appreciate, it is an inevitable, but unfortunate consequence of the necessary restructuring of the banking system and the return to viability of the sector that branches in certain towns and villages will be closed. The Government appreciates that branch closures will have an impact on those towns and villages, but the Department has been informed by AIB that the bank is working very closely with its customers to ensure the disruption is minimised and to provide a range of alternative banking options to affected customers, such as use of local post offices and mobile banking facilities.

As part of AIB's restructuring plan to return the bank to profitability and to reduce dependence on State support, significant cost reductions are required over the coming years. In this regard, AIB announced its branch rationalisation programme in July 2012. The bank's branch overhaul will include a combination of six amalgamations, 16 full branch closures and 45 sub-office closures. In total, 67 locations will be impacted, equating to 27% of AIB's branch network. It is worth noting that AIB will still have 200 branches in Ireland following the rationalisation, coupled with an additional 80 EBS outlets.

Nevertheless, to mitigate the impact of the branch closures on customers, AIB intends to strengthen its long-standing relationship with An Post and, at the same time, is launching a new mobile bank service to provide certain banking services to customers in remote locations. The mobile service will allow customers to make lodgements and withdrawals, pay bills and order foreign exchange. At the moment, AIB banking services are available in more than 1,100 An Post outlets nationwide. The current services at any An Post outlet allow AIB customers to make cash lodgments for personal and business customers, avail of cash withdrawals up to €600 per day, pay their credit cards bills and use any of An Post's own branded services, including bill payments, postal drafts and foreign currency.

In addition, AIB plans to build on this successful relationship with An Post and has arranged for additional banking facilities to be available in more than 90 selected outlets. AIB and An Post management are working closely together at local, regional and national level to ensure the successful launch of this enhanced service, and An Post staff will be fully trained to offer this new service in advance of the branch closure dates.

As part of the closure process, the bank is also engaging extensively with customers, businesses and community groups in affected areas to ensure there is an adequate understanding about the rationalisation process. It is endeavouring to keep all stakeholders fully informed to minimise any inconvenience.

Specifically in rural areas in Cork such as Mizen Head, I am informed that customers will be able to access enhanced banking services at post offices in Ballydehob and Schull, while AIB is also exploring the possibility with An Post of offering additional services in Goleen. I am sure the former Deputy will be delighted to hear that. The mobile bank service will also be available in both Ballydehob and Schull three days a week, on Monday, Thursday and Friday. There will still be 30 AIB branches remaining open in Cork, with some within ten and 15 miles of Ballydehob and Schull, respectively.

Senator O'Donovan has made a very valid contribution and he is to be commended on putting forward the case for his own area..The fact that he has raised the matter in this public forum as a Member of the Oireachtas requires AIB to reply specifically to him and, in my view, this is what it should do in respect of the information the Senator has put on the record of the House. The argument about Schull has been well made by Senator O'Donovan and I think AIB has a responsibility to reply to him on that case.

I thank the Minister of State for his very frank and fair reply, as usual. It would be unusual if he were to be in any way discourteous to me. However, it is cold comfort. I accept the Minister of State is between a rock and a hard place.

AIB has an obligation to ensure its business is commercially viable. Nevertheless, the decision, taken without prior consultation with customers, to discontinue services to these communities was a terrible blow. An indication was given to local public representatives, including me, some 12 months ago that the Ballydehob branch, because it was open for only a small number of hours per week, was not viable. The closure of the Schull branch, however, was a hammer blow. Schull is some 16 miles from Skibbereen, which means that entire end of the peninsula is without banking services. While the young whippersnappers will probably be able to do their banking online, others, including the elderly, will be very discommoded. It will also have a negative impact on businesses which handle large volumes of cash, such as restaurants, pubs and so on. Such premises will be a honey pot for criminals because it will be known that cash is being deposited in banks less often.

The bottom line is that AIB owes a duty of service to the people of this remote community. There has been no engagement, however, and it refused to send a representative to the recent public meeting. People in Schull have given the bank their custom for many years. While I accept that the Ballydehob branch does not have a future, I urge the Minister of State to convey to the management of the bank the urgent need to reconsider its decision regarding Schull.

I very much agree with the point the Senator is making. It is not acceptable for banks to refuse to send representatives to a public meeting in circumstances where a local banking service is potentially being withdrawn. Given the long-standing relationships that exist in this community and the customer base the bank has built up, the failure to engage is particularly disappointing. If it is right and proper that politicians should attend public meetings to account for themselves, it is equally right and proper for bank management to do the same. Such engagement would, if nothing else, allow management to explain its position.

As I said in my reply, branch closures are an inevitable consequence of the bank restructuring programme which the Government has initiated. Nine out of ten transactions are now conducted online, with in-branch business accounting for only 10% of transactions. That is the direction in which banking is moving at a global level. Nevertheless, banks have an obligation to engage with local communities and to make their case, rather than running away and asking politicians to do their job for them. The Senator will appreciate, however, that my Department cannot involve itself directly in this or any other individual case. All such matters must be commercial decisions for the banks themselves. We are precluded from intervention in these cases, as is right and proper. The banks must focus on returning their business to profitability so that, ultimately, the State can get back the money we have had to pump into these entities in recent years. While management must do what it considers necessary to achieve that end, part of that must include an engagement with the loyal customers who had no part in the decisions which bankrupted the banks. The people in the area to which the Senator referred are entitled to an explanation and he is absolutely right to point that out.

Suicide Prevention

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for coming to the House to deal with this matter. It is an issue which I raised as a matter of urgency last week, relating to the directive from the Health Service Executive indicating the withdrawal of funding for travel expenses in regard to non-clinical work. Unfortunately, suicide awareness falls into the category of non-clinical work, meaning that the allowance currently paid to specialist tutors engaged in this sector is ending. As a result, services aimed at removing the stigma attached to suicide and offering support to communities are at risk.

The demands, pressures and expectations of modern life can increase levels of anxiety and depression. These pressures often intensify in times of recession, and my home town of Carrick-on-Suir, Tipperary, is no different in this regard. Our community has suffered greatly from the tragedy of suicide and is desperately in need of help. Unemployment, at 20%, is stubbornly high, which leads to the usual social problems. The Nano Nagle Centre in the town runs a course which teaches participants the skills required to identify signs of suicidal behaviour and to help those affected by the death of a loved one through suicide. It offers people life-saving tools which can benefit others in their community. However, after the first three sessions of the course, funding for tutors' travel has been withdrawn. This drastic action has caused huge disappointment for the current 29 participants, who have shown tremendous courage in seeking to help people at risk and those bereaved by suicide.

At a time when the number of people presenting at hospital emergency departments following incidents of self-harm is increasing, this decision makes no sense. People can become suicidal for many reasons, including as a consequence of cyber-bullying, the loss of a job or where they are experiencing loneliness and isolation. In this context, the relatively small allocation for running the course in Carrick-on-Suir should be reinstated as soon as possible.

There is a strong argument that this service does amount to clinical work. It certainly represents a proactive approach to the prevention of suicide and self-harm. It can be particularly helpful for those experiencing suicidal thoughts to hear people who have been bereaved by suicide speak candidly about the death of their loved one. The course at the Nano Nagle Centre provides a relaxed and comfortable setting for this type of engagement. There is a great deal to do in terms of educating society about the issues surrounding mental, psychological and emotional ill-health. The longer that misconceptions about suicide are allowed to persist, the longer we will all struggle to address the problem.

Those bereaved by suicide are often in desperate need of a realistic outlook on what their life will be like in the months and years ahead. The death by suicide of a loved one is a pivotal event in a person's life and nothing will ever be the same again. This does not mean, however, that people can never again experience happiness. They must work hard to resolve their grief with the help of others who have been through the same experience. With time, support and after many tears, they can live a full life. Courses such as this one in Carrick-on-Suir can help to change attitudes to suicide. People need to know that mental illness, like any other illness, can be treated and cured. Professional help must be sought at an early stage, however, and the State has an obligation to provide the services required to help sufferers to recover. In this instance, that support is being provided at a very small cost to the Exchequer. If those who wish to avail of the course are now obliged to seek help through the psychiatric services, this will impose a much greater burden on public moneys. I appeal to the Minister of State to make the funding available through the ring-fenced mental health budget to reinstate this course as soon as possible.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue on the Adjournment. I very much appreciate the concern this is causing to the community in Carrick-on-Suir. There is an inherent complexity in seeking to tackle the issue of suicide, and support is required both for those who are considering taking their own lives and for those left behind after the death of a loved one. I accept that we are talking here about a small amount of money. However, if I were to accede to every request for funding from the €35 million allocated under the mental health budget, the money would be gone before it is ever drawn down. We had no choice but to be very rigid in terms of what we could do with it.

The Health Service Executive's regional suicide resource office in Waterford provides suicide prevention training programmes across the counties of Waterford, Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny and south Tipperary. The principles underpinning the work of the resource office are to support local health offices through close collaboration with the local area teams in regard to issues pertaining to suicide and self-harm. The office also works closely with the various voluntary and community groups in the development of community-based initiatives aimed at increasing awareness of the issues associated with suicide and self-harming behaviour. Concerned About Suicide - a community education training programme, is one of 12 training programmes provided by the resource office. This programme is particularly supportive of communities in their efforts towards ameliorating the impact of suicide on the community at large.

It also provides essential training in supporting the at-risk individual and the suicide bereaved within that individual's community.

The training programme was delivered to 17 participants in Carrick-on-Suir in May. It recommenced at the Nano Nagle centre in Carrick-on-Suir in September. Unfortunately, because of the current budgetary position within the HSE, restrictions on staff travel were introduced and it was necessary to defer the remaining training until 2013. However, an offer to complete it at a venue in Waterford during 2012 was made to the community group by the HSE. To date, this offer has not been taken up. I suggest the Senator might inquire about the possibility of this happening, particularly as the programme has proved to be extremely beneficial.

The HSE's National Office for Suicide Prevention funds and co-ordinates a range of suicide prevention initiatives. It provides funding for 42 programmes run by 27 organisations such as Console, Samaritans, Pieta House to deliver services and support and directly respond to people in crisis and families bereaved through suicide. While the current economic environment presents a significant challenge for the health system generally in the delivery of services, mental health services are being treated as a priority by the Government. In that regard, consideration was given to the mental health sector in budget 2012 through a special allocation of €35 million for mental health services. Funding from this special allocation is primarily being used to enhance both general adult and child and adolescent community mental health teams, improve access to psychological therapies in primary care and implement suicide prevention strategies. It is intended that the additional resources will be rolled out in conjunction with a scheme of appropriate clinical care programmes and each mental health service has been asked to identify an experienced staff member from the community teams to take responsibility for those elements of the clinical programme which deal with suicide prevention and to undergo specific training to fulfil this function.

The challenge of suicide prevention is one of the most urgent facing society. I am confident that in working together we can maximise the impact of the suicide prevention and support network to ensure it reaches and responds effectively to those who are most vulnerable.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply, with which I am obviously very disappointed. I ask that she provide an undertaking to the effect that the funding for this specific course will be reinstated in 2013. She referred to an offer that those involved be allowed to complete the training at a venue in Waterford. We are dealing with 29 people and I am not aware of their social circumstances. In a town in which the rate of unemployment rate is 20%, it is highly likely that most of them lack the wherewithal to get to Waterford in order to take part in a training course. The greatest difficulty for them was to go into a room and share their life experiences with others. It would be impractical - I refer to the HSE rather than the Minister of State in this regard - to expect them to repeat this exercise in another setting. I am extremely disappointed by the stance taken in this matter. The work involved is not non-clinical in nature. What is at issue is a vital service that is literally helping to save and repair lives in my community. The withdrawal of funding is a blow to the community and those who undertook to take the course. I again ask the Minister of State to give an undertaking that the funding will be reinstated in 2013 in order that the brave people to whom I refer can complete the course as soon as possible and be of assistance to fellow citizens in their community.

I understand the Senator's reaction to the offer in respect of the venue in Waterford. It is, however, a very generous offer which was not made in a frivolous manner. Rather, it was made on the basis of trying to resolve the issue. I agree with the Senator that this is not merely an issue for the Government, it is one which must also be dealt with by society in a community-based way. That is why SafeTALK and ASIST are being delivered across the country. We will revisit the issue when the decision on the funding allocation for the National Office for Suicide Prevention for 2013 is being made.

Student Grant Scheme Eligibility

The issue I wish to raise is that of third level grants and the decision of the Minister for Education and Skills in the context of budget 2012 to reassess the evaluation process for such grants in order that, in addition to income, the value of certain capital assets will be taken into account. This is a cause of huge concern to self-employed persons, self-employed families and, in particular, farming families. I understand the capital asset test implementation group has completed its report and submitted it to the Minister. We are not sure what recommendations it contains, but it is important that the report be published as quickly as possible in order that everyone will have an understanding of what is happening.

There is a myth abroad that all students whose families have farms receive third level maintenance grants, but nothing could be further from the truth. A Higher Education Authority, HEA, survey completed of 72% of first year students during the 2009-10 academic year showed that only 8.9% of new students were from farming backgrounds. Of these 8.9% of students, only 39.7% were in receipt of third level grants. This means that between 4% and 5% of all first year college students from farming backgrounds receive grants. If the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, presses ahead with his proposals, he will deter young people living on farms or in rural areas or those whose parents are self-employed - for example, shopkeepers and others with small businesses - from proceeding to third level. These individuals will not be able to afford to go to third level if they cannot avail of the grants available.

Let us consider the position of a farmer who is generating income from the land he or she owns. Under the Minister's proposals, that income will have to be declared when the farmer's son or daughter is completing the application form for the third level maintenance grant. That income will, therefore, be assessed and will go towards determining whether a grant will be approved. What the Minister is endeavouring to do is extremely unfair. While the income to which I refer will be assessed, the Minister has also indicated that the value of capital assets will be taken into account. These assets are necessary in order to generate income. As a result, those to whom I refer will be assessed in respect of both their incomes and capital assets. If the Minister proceeds with his proposals, farmers and the self-employed will be assessed twice on the same earnings. That is extremely unfair. A person who runs a shop or some other business requires his or her premises in order to generate his or her income and create employment. The income from the shop or business is assessed as his or her means. It would be very unfair to discriminate against self-employed persons and farmers who are already struggling and who, on foot of the class of PRSI contributions they make, do not receive social welfare payments.

I ask that the report of the capital asset test implementation group be published. I accept that the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, does not hold a portfolio within the Department of Education and Skills. However, I must emphasise to her that it is critically important that the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, refrain from implementing his proposals to bring capital assets into the equation in the assessment of means. It will be grossly unfair if what is envisaged comes to pass.

The Senator has indicated that the report of the capital asset test implementation group is under consideration. As yet, however, there are no proposals in respect of this matter.

The Minister made an announcement on this matter in the context of budget 2012. I have in my possession a letter from him which confirms this.

The Minister of State to continue, without interruption.

It is unfair for the Senator to continually refer to the Minister pressing ahead with certain proposals, particularly as he is aware that a decision has not been made on the capital asset test implementation group's report. I thank the Senator for raising this issue, to which I am replying on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

Last December, it was announced that the means test for student grants will be amended to take account of the value of certain capital assets in addition to income for new applicants from the 2013-14 academic year. The Senator will appreciate that, in the context of the current financial climate, the importance of accurately directing increasingly scarce resources towards those who need them most has become a high priority.

Many reports over a number of years have strongly recommended the introduction of a capital test for student grants, particularly on the grounds of equity and fairness. The introduction of such a test would create a more equitable basis for means testing, where a more complete analysis of a family's capacity to support their children in pursuing further or higher education is undertaken.

While the introduction of a capital assets test for student grants may have traditionally been perceived as likely to have an impact on certain communities, particularly the farming community, this is not the object of the proposal. The proposal is not designed to target any one group. In common with other State means-tested schemes, the two principal factors that facilitate spending - income and accumulated wealth or capital - would be taken into account for all applicants, be they unemployed, employed, self-employed or retired.

Following agreement in principle by the Government to broaden the current means testing arrangements for student grants by way of inclusion of the value of capital assets, the Minister set up a dedicated implementation group to bring forward detailed proposals for implementation in 2013. The group was charged with bringing forward detailed implementation proposals on new means-testing arrangements for student grants, to include the value of assets, for new applicants from the 2013-14 academic year. The group was also charged with drafting a detailed outline of the scheme and providing the required information to enable the development of necessary related legislative provisions. The Minister has received the draft report of the implementation group and is currently reviewing it with officials before bringing it to the Government, which will make any final decisions.

It is very clear from the response that the Government has taken an initial decision. In making reference to the setting up of the group, the Minister of State's response uses the phrase, "Following agreement in principle". The group would not have been set up had the Government not been of the opinion that it wanted to target capital assets. The capital assets will inevitably include farmland and those of the self-employed.

The Minister of State said, "The group was charged with bringing forward detailed implementation proposals on new means-testing arrangements for student grants". It is very clear that the Government's agenda is to target land that is used by people to generate income. This is very unfair. We must await the outcome of the decisions. I urge the Minister of State to plead with the Minister, Deputy Quinn, not to implement this proposal. Now, when students are struggling to enter third level education due to the economic crisis, is not the time to be examining such a proposal. It will further deter students from entering third level education. This is very unfair in the current climate because there are very few jobs for those who have just completed the leaving certificate examinations. To further deter them from progressing into third level through the introduction of the proposed arrangement would be grossly unfair. I have no problem with the application of the arrangement to very wealthy people or millionaires but, unfortunately, it is to apply not only to the super-rich but to everyone, even those who are struggling to send children to college.

I very much acknowledge what the Senator is saying and assure him that the Minister for Education and Skills will be informed of his contribution. If this is a question of targeting everyone rather than groups, as proposed, we must acknowledge there are clearly people who can afford to send their children to third level, and there are others who clearly cannot. We must ensure the scarce resources we have are targeted at those who are least able to afford to send their children to third level.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 16 October 2012.
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