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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 2012

Vol. 218 No. 7

The Economy: Statements

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the House on the theme of where the economy stands. The Government's policies are beginning to bear fruit and the economy is showing signs of growth, which is the first step towards our national recovery. The aim of Government policy is to improve living standards for all. A growing economy and an improved jobs market are essential prerequisites. That is our focus and objective, and that is what we intend to obtain.

Before discussing the Government's response to the opportunities and challenges facing us, I will provide Senators with a brief overview of the economic situation. Last year's 1.4% expansion in GDP followed three successive years of annual declines. Growth has continued into this year, rising modestly at 0.5% in the first half of this year compared with the same period last year. The recovery is being led by the external sector. Exports of goods and services are now well in excess of pre-crisis levels. This demonstrates that the improvement in competitiveness, which has been evident in recent years, is now yielding benefits. It highlights the inherent flexibility of the Irish economy given the significant improvements in relative prices and costs. Strong export performance means that our balance of payments with the rest of the world moved into surplus in 2010 for the first time in more than a decade.

More recently, a surplus of €3.2 billion was recorded on the current account of the balance of payments in the second quarter of this year. This is the largest nominal surplus recorded since records began in 1981. While the figures can be volatile, it is notable that in the past four quarters the current account balance has averaged 3.3% of GDP. In the second quarter of the year services exports recorded an 8% annual increase. This again reflects the competitiveness improvements of recent years. It also reflects the continuing willingness of foreign and domestic multinationals to locate new business in Ireland. The pipeline for more foreign direct investment is strong and IDA Ireland has secured 77 foreign direct investments to date this year.

Notwithstanding these positive developments, the Government is acutely aware that the greatest fallout from our economic difficulties is in the labour market. The October unemployment estimate at 14.8% is simply too high. However, the only reliable way to bring down unemployment is to secure economic growth. I repeat that is the main focus of the Government's economic policies.

On the budgetary front, the gap between revenue and expenditure remains large despite the reduction in the underlying deficit to an estimated 9.1% of GDP last year - well within the limit set under the EU-IMF programme. The Government is committed to reducing the deficit further. The latest available data are consistent with achieving this year's target of 8.6% of GDP. Aggregate tax receipts for the 12 months to the end of October are up 6.3% on the same period last year on a headline basis and are 0.3% ahead of target with three of the four main sources of revenue outperforming expectations.

The majority of Departments continue to manage within their agreed limits. That said, spending is somewhat higher than planned in the social protection and health areas, which is a serious cause for concern. First, in order to achieve budgetary targets and, second, to restore confidence in the sound management of the public finances, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is working with ministerial colleagues in these areas to ensure that allocations are managed effectively.

The Government continues to meet the quantitative fiscal targets set out as part of the EU-IMF programme, most recently for the end of September. Compliance with these targets has helped a great deal in restoring Ireland's reputation as we seek to return the public finances to a more sustainable path. Our recent return to the bond markets is a clear measure of the progress Ireland has made towards emerging from the programme. Success here illustrates that the strong programme implementation by the Government is recognised by investors and that Ireland's recovery is on track.

As a small, open economy, Ireland's prospects are inextricably linked to wider global developments. Concerning our main trading partners, GDP in the euro area contracted by 0.2% in the second quarter of this year following a flat first quarter. UK GDP grew by 1% in the third quarter, following three successive quarters of negative growth. The United States figures are a little more encouraging, with GDP increasing by 0.4% in the second quarter. The IMF recently revised downwards its global growth projections for 2013, including for Ireland's main trading partners, in particular the UK and euro area. Thus demand for our exports in 2013 will not be as high as had been anticipated when the Department of Finance last published its growth forecasts in April.

The Government is acutely aware that many in our society who have been negatively affected by the economic difficulties of the past four years are under immense strain. I repeat that job creation is our key objective in this regard, and putting in place the right policies to encourage growth in employment is at the centre of the policy action.

I wish to go into detail on some issues, particularly mortgage arrears, as colleagues have requested that this be done during the debate. The Government is aware of the significant difficulties homeowners face in meeting their mortgage obligations. The Government is committed to advancing appropriate measures to assist those mortgage holders experiencing real and genuine difficulty. The Government is now actively implementing the main report recommendations of the interdepartmental working group on mortgage arrears, and significant milestones have been achieved.

The Personal Insolvency Bill passed Report Stage last week in Dáil Éireann. The Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning formally launched the mortgage to rent scheme on a nationwide basis. Lenders have provided the Central Bank with details of their proposed forbearance and loan modification options. Some forbearance measures have been introduced on a pilot basis and are being further rolled out. The Minister of Social Protection has put in place an extensive independent mortgage advice framework. This comprises an enhanced website, www.keepingvourhome.ie, a mortgage arrears information helpline, and the provision of free, independent, one-to-one professional financial advice to borrowers considering a long-term forbearance or resolution offer from their lender.

The Government remains committed to progressing these measures to assist genuine mortgage holders in difficulty. These are in addition to existing supports such as the protections offered by the Central Bank's code of conduct on mortgage arrears. The Government sub-committee on mortgage arrears, chaired by the Taoiseach, continues to ensure this issue receives priority attention.

In terms of the labour market, the Government's Action Plan for Jobs 2012 was launched earlier this year by my colleague, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, and builds on work throughout Government to deliver reform and create economic growth. We will build on the progress made on economic reforms to accelerate jobs growth and get the economy working again.

Action Plan for Jobs 2012 is the first instalment in an ambitious multi-year process. It aims to create, by 2016, the environment where the number of people at work will increase by 100,000 people net to approximately 1.9 million and reach 2 million people by 2020. Its success will depend on whether it fosters greater job retention and creation. The latest progress report shows that in the third quarter of 2012, Departments and agencies had delivered on schedule. This equates to an 87% completion rate of the 67 measures due.

That said, structural unemployment is a key concern, and is reflected in the regrettably high share of long-term unemployed. This remains in part a legacy of the aftermath of the construction boom and the decline of associated sectors. To combat this the Government has prioritised job creation and retention through the action plan on jobs and Pathways to Work which is the Government's jobs activation programme. We have also successfully negotiated with our programme partners that some of the receipts from the sale of State assets will be directed to support job creation.

Ireland must maintain its position as an attractive destination for inward investment. We must position our economy to take advantage of the global recovery when it emerges. While the sustainability of the public finances is paramount, the Government has taken, and will continue to take, steps to support competitiveness. These include the Government's commitment to the 12.5% rate of corporation tax and to maintaining and enhancing our pro-business tax policies. As a result, Ireland continues to attract inward foreign direct investment. Almost 1,000 companies, including Google, eBay and Facebook, have chosen Ireland as their European hub. Equally encouraging are recent investment decisions by Irish companies to locate new business at home.

Since 2011 the Government has introduced and enhanced a number of pro-business tax measures. The 2012 Finance Act introduced the special assignee relief programme to attract key talent and innovators to Ireland. We have also introduced the foreign earnings deduction to support companies looking to expand into the emerging BRIC markets of Brazil, Russia, India and China, and also South Africa. Significant enhancements to the research and development tax credit scheme have been internationally recognised as best in class. Improvements in the three-year tax exemption for start-ups now ties the value of the relief to employment creation. Furthermore, the jobs initiative introduced a reduction in the VAT rate on certain employment intensive industries such as tourism, while a reduced rate of PRSI payable by employers supports wage competitiveness.

Given Ireland's labour costs contribution to total costs, its competitiveness significantly impacts on overall competitiveness. Unit labour costs, relative to the euro area, have improved substantially in recent years and are forecast to continue to converge in the coming years. Exchange rate movements also benefit our competitiveness. Last year's euro depreciation against the dollar and sterling has been of great benefit given our greater exposure to trade outside of the euro area.

Despite the challenges we face, the Government will spend €17 billion on the 2012-16 capital programme. That level of expenditure is based on what we can afford and targeted at where it is needed most. The programme is designed to facilitate economic growth and build our social infrastructure. An increasing share of our scarce capital resources will be allocated to schools and health care facilities. These areas will benefit the construction industry in terms of stimulating increased demand and the consequent jobs that will follow.

Last July my colleague and Minister, Deputy Howlin, announced the Government's plan for an additional €2.25 billion investment in jobs-rich public infrastructure projects in Ireland. Intensive efforts were made to identify projects that are realistic, credible and deliverable. The bulk of project funding will come from a combination of the National Pensions Reserve Fund, the European Investment Bank and Council of Europe bank, domestic banks and other potential private investment sources. Phase 1 of our public private partnership programme is estimated to generate up to 13,000 jobs. Phase 1 will focus on projects valued at up to €1.4 billion in the education, health, transport and justice sectors.

The importance of ensuring a sustainable public finance position is clear to all. The Government must demonstrate, nationally and internationally, that the public finances are gradually returning to a sustainable level. Our debt-to-GDP ratio must be put on a downward path and the ratio is expected to peak next year and will fall thereafter.

With regard to the medium term, the external environment is expected to strengthen from 2014 onwards, as is our export growth. As stronger exports start to feed through to investment and employment, consumer confidence is expected to improve and the savings rate should start to fall. I expect to see economic activity beginning to gradually firm up and broaden out from being externally driven to domestic demand beginning to make a modest contribution.

The strong performance of foreign direct investment points to the fact that many of the underlying strengths of our economy remain, including a well educated workforce, favourable demographics, an open and flexible economy and a pro-enterprise environment.

Much, however, remains to be done and I reiterate that addressing the difficulties in the labour market remains our biggest challenge. Recent figures point to signs of stabilisation in the labour market. The next task is to get unemployment on a downward path.

While the Government is taking every step to support economic recovery, there are no quick fixes. We must continue to deliver on our commitments under our EU-IMF programme and, in so doing, ensure that the programme is working for us. The Government's main priorities, to restore order to the public finances, repair the banking system and improve competitiveness, reflect the scale of the challenge we face.

We are on track to bring the deficit below 3% of GDP by 2015. The banking system has been recapitalised and the economy returned to growth last year following three successive years of annual declines. The Government is delivering a return to sustainable growth that plays to the underlying strengths of the economy.

Tomorrow, the Department of Finance will publish its revised forecasts for 2012 and later years. These will take account of more recent information and the outlook for the international economy.

The Government is reacting decisively and in a timely manner to address our economic challenges. This is widely recognised internationally by those who objectively assess our performance. Hard decisions have been taken and these have helped reposition our economy on a more sustainable, export-led growth path. The return to modest growth demonstrates that these hard decisions are now beginning to bear fruit. While this has not yet had a positive impact on the labour market, as momentum builds in the economy we can expect further positive dividends, particularly in the labour market.

I look forward to the debate that will follow my contribution. I assure Senators that the Government has an open mind when it comes to listening to the contributions of colleagues on all sides and considering sensible suggestions that will help us all to get the economy working again.

I apologise to the Cathaoirleach and the Minister of State for my absence for the early part of his speech. I had thought a colleague would be here in my stead. I thank the Minister of State for outlining the Government's position and thank him for coming to the Seanad, as he so frequently does.

The picture the Minister of State and the Government paint of the economy, however, is more rosy than the reality. The gross national product for the second quarter of this year was flat. The economy avoided slipping back into recession by just €3 million. This shows the difficult position the country and the Government are in. The overall figures show the familiar story that has been continuing for the past few years. Companies that are selling outside the country are doing well, and in some cases very well, but domestic demand continues to fall. The massive expansion on the export front, which the Minister of State graciously acknowledges goes back to at least 2010, is not making up for the depressed demand in the domestic economy. In the last year, consumer spending was down about 2.5% and investment spending was down 18%. For our economy to recover properly we need more than exports, although we are grateful for them. We also need consumer spending and internal business investment to increase.

Unfortunately, there has been a fall of about 24,000 at work this year and 34,000 fewer people are employed full time than at the end of 2011. The fall in the second quarter of this year was the highest since 2010. Broader measures of unemployment would show that about a quarter of the workforce are not working to the extent they would like. This presents a severe challenge, not just for the Government but for the entire political system. It presents a challenge for us in opposition not just to criticise and castigate, as was the practice for many years, but also to provide some alternatives and constructive suggestions, which the Minister of State invited today.

The Government should scrap the pension levy it imposed on private pensions last year to pay for a spin led jobs initiative which made no impact whatsoever on the jobs numbers. I debated this expenditure of money with the Minister of State at the time.

I suggested to him that there should be a jobs target and that we would actually see where the money was being spent and what the results were. I also suggested I would be the first to congratulate the Government if unemployment was reduced as a result of all that spending, but it did not happen. We took a tax out of people's pensions which, in some cases, resulted in a 10% reduction in their pension payments, in particular those of the Tara Mines workers, although it also had an impact on schemes such as the Aer Lingus one, but there was no direct result except a positive PR spin that the Government was doing something about it. We are not careful enough about how we spend our money. That was a huge problem for many years and it is about time we learned the lesson. Instead of that pension levy, we should mandate pension funds to invest in job creation schemes. There has been a tiny bit of progress on that from the Government but not enough to make a difference.

Since coming into office, the Government has undertaken the jobs initiative, a jobs friendly budget and an action plan for jobs but the number of people at work continues to fall. The burden of rates is becoming intolerable for many small businesses while large multiples pay a much smaller proportion of their turnover on rates. Serious concerns have been brought to the Department's attention in regard to the Valuation (Amendment) Bill and to the dangers for business which it presents. In fact, that Bill is a jobs shedding one and it is time the Government took a serious look at the concerns expressed. Many of the business associations have not been on the case in regard to this Valuation (Amendment) Bill but the few that have hit the nail on the head in regard to certain provisions of the Bill and how it will kill jobs.

We need to reverse the cuts made to home insulation grants. In budget 2012, grants for internal wall insulation were slashed by 64% for apartments and mid-terraced houses and by 46% for semi-detached houses and end of terrace houses. There were cuts of 55% in the grants available for external wall insulation, which is more expensive, and the grants for attic insulation were cut by 20%. That is unfortunate and it is short-sighted, it will cost jobs and it will make it extremely difficult for Ireland to meet its retrofit and energy reduction targets. Not only will it cost those jobs, but people will spend more of their money on utility bills rather than in the productive sector of the economy.

We have to tackle the black economy. One suggestion I ask the Minister to take seriously is that in every commercial transaction, there should be a requirement to give and receive a receipt. As I understand it, there is no such requirement in Ireland while in many continental countries, if one leaves a shop without taking a receipt, one is technically guilty of an offence. It is not a requirement here and the contractors federation is looking for something similar to that. If there was a legal obligation to give and receive a receipt in every commercial transaction, it could help tackle the black economy.

I have a number of concerns about the mortgage situation. It is completely germane to the whole issue of the economy. I was not expecting the Minister to address it relatively comprehensively and I am glad he did, but I have a number of concerns. The mortgage-to-rent scheme is not working. It is simply a pilot scheme. The Minister's former colleague, Olwyn Enright, and I produced a joint report for the former Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs and we recommended that as one of a number of solutions. I thought one would rent the property from the bank but instead the Government has to give the bank money to pay off the mortgage. It seems that cannot work without significant expenditure by the Government.

The mortgage arrears resolution procedures within the banks are starting to kick in with banks actually dealing with these cases. The result is the banks are now moving to get rid of people. For the past few years, this was not organised and it gave people breathing space but that is now gone and people are getting letters from the banks saying there is nothing more they can do for them. The banks are now judge and jury in regard to individual cases. We will have to look at that because I do not think it will work for the benefit of the individual and we are only starting to get experience of how that system works.

I have sometimes been very critical of Senator Byrne but I thought his contribution was sharp and on the ball. I do not give positive praise to the Senator very often but on this occasion, it was deserved. I want to start where Senator Byrne finished in regard to household debt. The increase in the ratio of debt to disposable income from 2002 to 2012 has been astonishing. It has gone as high as 2,013%, peaking at €214 billion which is an incredible figure.

Taking the adverse scenario, in five years the figure will still be 150% of disposable income, effectively meaning that between now and then we will maintain that high ratio, which is where the ratio is in the UK today. This means people will have a poor spending power, leading them to save and become more careful with money. If they do not spend money, it is taken from the economy.

The predominant fear to spend in Irish society is a major issue for the Government to crack. People are determined not to spend. If they go shopping they may have a meal but not have a coffee, and if people have lunch they may not get their kids a soft drink. This is why, as Senator Byrne noted, the second quarter was practically flat, with only €3 million in the difference stopping us reversing into recession.

When there were major credit booms and busts in the past, the issues were rectified through the likes of inflation, which gobbled some of the cost; growth, which took more of it; and write-downs. As inflation is a little over 1% now, it will not gobble much. The figures for growth will be out tomorrow and most people will be surprised if the growth prediction for 2013 is 1%, which means it will not be helpful. We are left with reducing the debt burden through a write-down. From the discussions we have had about usage of what we hope will be a personal insolvency Act, it seems we do not know what will be the attitudes of banks.

I welcome the Personal Insolvency Bill, which will come before us on 21 November. A crucial aspect of the legislation will be the agreement between banks and individuals. This will take in hundreds of thousands of cases and I wonder if banks will have the capacity to deal with hundreds of thousands of cases on a one-to-one basis. A valuation Bill is ahead of us and we should take this opportunity to improve the system of rates. The silliest aspects of this comes from case law. For example, if somebody is in business and leaves a premises, the rates burden, if unpaid, stays with the premises even if some other party occupies it. That is crazy as it means premises are normally left without occupants. Money would be spent on a premises that should be used for business but instead it is left idle.

I will provide an example of the cost of living for a citizen. I was recently told that when a person filled a tank of heating oil three years ago, the cost was €430. It now costs €1,100 to fill the same tank. People are not spending elsewhere because the cost to fill a heating oil tank has nearly trebled. Spending power in other areas has been removed. People commuting to work are in a similar boat. My own town is a commuter area for this city, despite being 50 or 60 miles away, and people do not have spending power because of the cost of the commute.

I am not saying we should slaughter some of the sacred cows but we should analyse their cost. For example, there should be a reasoned debate on corporation tax. Some will say that this would scare corporations out of the country but I am not arguing for this. Nevertheless, we should analyse the effects of a very modest increase of 1% and see if this would scare companies. I do not know if these firms would run if our rate was 13.5% instead of 12.5% but we should analyse the figures.

The burden arising from our current deficit should not fall completely on the taxpayer citizens of this country.

A property tax will be implemented and people are satisfied to pay more in taxes that they know and understand. People know and understand the property tax, as almost 70% of people have paid the household charge, which will evolve into the property tax next year. If people are given certainty about the figure for a fixed period such as five years, some of the sting may be taken from the process. People need certainty and if the Government gives it to them, they will accept some of the burdens more easily than if it just tells them what is happening without a long-term view. A longer perspective will make these issues more saleable.

I welcome the Minister of State and, in general, the speech is welcome as well because it contained positive news. It is fair to say that some developments have been very worthwhile. I disagree entirely with Senator Michael D'Arcy, who said that people need certainty while indicating that we should play with corporation tax. If we are to give investors certainty, we must make it very clear that the 12.5% corporation tax rate will stay and that we will not fiddle with it.

IBEC's new report indicates that 2012 will likely be the last year of falling employment because cuts to the public sector numbers are receding and the rate of decline in the domestic economy is slowing. However, since 2010, budgetary measures have added €660 million per annum to the labour costs of Irish employers, and we must consider reducing those costs. In the World Bank's ranking of ease of doing business, which was published recently, Ireland fell from 10th to 15th; Singapore remains in first place, as it takes just three days and three procedures to start a business there. New Zealand is approximately our size and it is even better in some areas, as it takes just one day and one procedure to start a new business. Why should we not aim to cut red tape, as it still takes ten days and four procedures to start a business in Ireland? We should make it even easier to attract investment and do business in the country as it would be some help to the economy. There are steps we can take in that direction.

We still have closed minds in many areas that could grow the economy. Why are we not debating the possibility of extracting shale gas through fracking, for example? I know there are some who are afraid to touch the subject but it would be worthwhile. By approximately 2020, the United States is projected to become the world's largest global oil producer, overtaking Saudi Arabia. The result will be a continued fall in US oil imports, currently at 20% of its needs, to the extent that North America will become a net exporter of oil. It is worthwhile considering the matter.

IBEC has indicated there is still a skills gap in Ireland and we can do much in that area. The financial services and ICT sectors need many extra skills, for example. Some estimates have more than 2,500 urgent vacancies and approximately 5,000 current job vacancies across the entire web and Internet sector in Ireland. Some of the key areas of shortage include web and mobile developers and designers, as well as project managers for application development. The Minister for Education and Skills should consider teaching web coding to schoolchildren. That may seem excessive when we have difficulty teaching them French, German or some other language but there are vacancies that can be filled if we only teach the required skills.

The Government is examining pensions and the last time I spoke about releasing a portion of the pensions to stimulate the economy, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, said he understood the case made and "thought would have to be given to whether such an exercise would result in the diminution of people's capacity to pay their own way and not be a burden on the State". I would like to open the debate. People in great need due to mortgage or credit card debt could get some money now to help them survive. People need cashflow now and we can go a long way working on that. South Africa offers access to pension savings, and research by a consultancy, Alexander Forbes International, indicated that 70% of members there take their benefits in cash before retirement. It is also believed that allowing people early access to a portion of their pension offers encouragement to sign up to a pension scheme.

Australia's pension scheme requires compulsory enrolment but members are allowed to take all the benefit as a lump sum at 55. A similar measure would help many people who may be three months in arrears on a mortgage or have €1,000 in credit card debt. Any remaining money would go back into the economy. There is an estimated €100 billion in Irish savings in pension funds, 90% of which are outside the country. Money would flow back here if the Government allowed my proposal.

Senator Barrett will speak later and he recently mentioned how Denmark issues mortgages. That country is also progressive in its treatment of pensions, having introduced a pension release initiative in 2009, with higher than anticipated take-up because householders opted to dip into pension savings in order to offset the worst effects of the economic crisis. I hope the Senator touches on the issue, which was regarded as an effective response to very difficult economic circumstances. When this was carried out in Denmark, 94% of the people with such funds chose to access them, resulting in a stimulus of 1.4% of GDP and an Exchequer windfall of something like €2 billion.

There is much we can do. The six minute speaking time limit may be forcing us to squeeze in some of the thoughts reaching uppermost in our minds.

I welcome the Minister of State's return to the Chamber and always look forward to him coming here because he has a particular fondness for engagement. His contributions are always very informative. There are so many issues facing the economy that it is almost impossible to think of how we could even address one of them in the six minutes allocated to us. I will speak to some of the many aspects of debt.

One of the many important elements to our economic difficulty is the fiscal deficit, which will approach 120% of GDP next year. That is extremely worrying. Figures are changing all the time in discussing what is a dangerous level of debt. It was traditionally thought 80% of GDP was very dangerous, and this figure has moved to 90% or even a third higher than that again. It represents a significant drag on the economy and everything we try to achieve. If we do not close the fiscal deficit, we will not take control of our own affairs. It is not possible to close the fiscal deficit easily with a mixture of inflation, reduction in spending and tax increases. The economy would not be capable of sustaining such measures. There has been much comment about the level of indebtedness in the country, of which public debt is only one element. Senator Michael D'Arcy referred to household debt, which is of a similar magnitude to public debt. Non-financial corporate debt has also been mentioned. I have heard a Member from the other House quoting combined figures leaving the economy on the hook for approximately €850 billion. That is not right as at least €300 billion of that is multinational corporation debt and there is no possibility of the State being responsible for it. Nevertheless, €550 billion in debt is substantial on its own and we must achieve some success in negotiating this figure down.

There are some welcome aspects to the direction in which the economy is going. This morning held a good example, as Bank of Ireland returned to the capital markets and secured €1 billion of money over three years at 3.2%. That rate is not great but it is a big improvement on the figure 12 months ago, which could have been ten percentage points above today's figure. On the European Union's response to the financial problems in the interbank and financial markets, they have seemingly stabilised, perhaps only temporarily, with €1.1 trillion of long-term refinancing options in two tranches, which is welcome.

However, this is not the solution because unless the intra-European financial markets work properly, we will not make the impact needed. The only way that can be done is to restore confidence, as Senator Quinn said. Restoring confidence at European level is important because the only way to fix the markets is to get private money flowing where public money is now flowing. Until that is done, there will not be a solution to this crisis. While it seems to have stabilised, a crisis, for example, if the Greek austerity budget had not passed on Sunday evening, would put the eurozone back in the melting pot again, which would have major knock-on effects for Ireland. It is important that what we do as a Government must first and foremost and single-mindedly be about restoring confidence.

The target 2, T2, liability against the Central Bank of Ireland is approximately €150 billion and while T2 is not harmful or worrying, it might point to continued underlying weaknesses in the economy. The Minister of State noted in his contribution that our balance of payments is positive and is not adding to our T2 liability. Is capital still flowing from the country through the banks? In what way are the T2 liabilities increasing? If these liabilities begin to reduce, that will be one indication that everything is heading very much in our direction at a macro level. The banks have reduced their dependence on the ELA to €45 billion this year from €130 billion last year, which is also promising. In addition, the return of Bank of Ireland to the markets is encouraging and these changes show the Government’s strategy is heading in the right direction in many ways.

Many challenges still face us, the greatest of which is securing a deal on the bank debt. Anything else we do will not make much difference if we do not secure a deal. What progress has been made in the negotiations on securing a deal on the Anglo Irish Bank promissory notes? They offer the best opportunity to secure a deal on the debt. While negotiations are taking place, I will be critical of the Government in one sense. There seems to be a lack of information or a lack of leadership on this. Commentators in all sectors of society and among the Government and Opposition parties are pointing to different strategies we should pursue. Should we burn the notes? Should we pay them in full? Should we restructure them? As a Government, if we offered a little more certainty about the direction we are taking on this, it might make the route towards financial independence for the State a little easier.

I welcome the Minister of State. As my party colleagues have said, we have given the Government parties a fair wind. The public has a positive attitude towards the Government’s efforts in trying to get us back to where we were. While I do not think we will ever get back to that position, we can at least get to a point where we will have reduced our deficit and met all the economic targets the Government has set. I wish the Government parties continued success in their efforts in that regard.

I would like to focus on competitiveness, an issue I raised on the Order of Business. The Minister of State said this included the Government’s commitment to the 12.5% rate of corporation tax and maintaining and enhancing its pro-business tax policies. He referenced a number of multinationals. The Government is correct to maintain the line that we stick solidly and rigidly to the 12.5% rate and there is an all-party consensus in this regard. We are under increasing pressure again, particularly as we seek a quid pro quo from Europe to review the rate again. The tax policy pursued by the Government and previous Administrations going back over many decades has been correct. It is the right strategy and it has shown that Ireland, as the Minister of State rightly pointed out, is a proactive location for multinationals.

However, an investigation in the past few days by a parliamentary committee in the UK has highlighted anomalies in the UK's tax policies relating to multinationals and pointed out flaws. Companies such as Google, Amazon and Starbucks allegedly are not paying any tax. Starbucks, amazingly, said it had been operating at a loss for 15 years in the UK. This is a tax avoidance rather than a tax default issue. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett received a reply to a parliamentary question a few weeks ago from the Minister of Finance which stated companies were paying a corporation tax rate of 4% or 5% and not 12.5%. When the Government tries to balance the books and is searching for money, inevitably vulnerable people will suffer as a result of budgetary measures. Has the Minister of State a response to the real corporation tax take at a rate of between 4% and 5%? How will the Government address this? If the Government tried to ensure it extracts more tax revenue from the multinationals, will they walk away? Is there is a belief in government that this is a sacred cow, which cannot be touched?

This issue should be reviewed because if the rate is 12.5%, then that is the rate that should be levied. The multinationals are operating tax avoidance measures, including the Dutch sandwich and another which relates to Bermuda, where they hive off their profits to separate companies on the basis that their royalties can be set against their tax liabilities. All this is legal and I do not wish to give the impression that I am bashing them but in the current climate with the Government trying to find €3.5 billion, the Minister of State referred to 1,000 multinationals. I do not know how many are paying 4%, 5%, 10% or 12.5% but it would be interesting to know. There is anger among the people about bankers' pensions of €400,000 and so on yet multinationals are generating billions of euro. Recently, Google announced it made an €8 billion profit, yet it only paid a measly few million euro under the corporation tax regime. Its response was to ask people to look at what it is contributing in other areas to the Exchequer. I accept that and believe it is right and proper to pursue the strategy of attracting more multinationals to the country. They are contributing to a reduction in unemployment and they generate economic activity wherever they are located. They are good for the country but the question remains as to how the Government will square the circle. If the rate is 12.5%, that is what companies should pay, not 4% or 5%. I am sure if the Government knew it would be able come up with a few hundred million euro more from the multinationals, it would spare those who will be in the firing line next month, particularly those reliant on the Department of Social Protection whose budget must be reduced.

I welcome the Minister of State. I would like to raise three issues relating to mortgages, unemployment and the cost of living. I was aware that our debt-to-GDP ratio is 120% but I was struck hard when I heard recently that our household debt-to-GDP ratio is 130% because this means there is little room for cuts. It is something to bear in mind when the axe falls.

The Minister of State made a substantial contribution on mortgage debt and I acknowledge the work we are doing as a Government in this area but a unique group is not being helped and has not become a statistic yet. This group comprises people where more than 35% of their net income monthly goes on paying their mortgage. They are managing but they are being screwed in terms of spending power and this is unsustainable.

They are cutting back on fuel, heating and food. They are good people. If they could get some relief, they have the money to spend in the domestic economy. They need relief. Legislation in the US suggests mortgage payments above 37% of net income are unsustainable. I met a family last week paying 70% of its net income on a mortgage. How long can the family keep going? We have lost trust in the banks. The way to help these people is not through the banks, it is through mortgage interest relief. We have made a decision but I ask the Minister of State to think again about particular subgroups, such as the cohort to which I referred.

Last week a Nobel laureate economist, Professor Pissarides, spoke on youth unemployment and said some interesting things. He said we had a massive opportunity during the EU Presidency to persuade the powers that be, the troika, to split the budget between recurrent spending and investment spending. It is not right to include recurrent spending, like civil servants' salaries, with investment spending. He strongly advocated investing in job creation projects, which is the view of the Government, such as green tech, ICT and the health sector. We have received €50 million from the European Investment Bank for schools and we should do more of that. He advocated that made better sense than the youth guarantee, which is a programme we are considering. He said the youth guarantee is too expensive for so little return. It amounts to four months in employment or in training. When one thinks about the criticism we suffered for the internships, which ran from six to nine months, we should re-examine what he is saying. He also made a valid point about subsidies for employers. He said it is better to give subsidies that offer work experience than unconditional unemployment compensation. Perhaps the Minister of State can comment on splitting the troika budget between recurrent spending and investment spending.

My final question is on the cost of living. What are we doing about it? The price of electricity has gone through the roof. I know families spending €200 a month on electricity, which is a huge bill yet it is a modest spend. Senator Quinn referred to fracking, which is controversial. Diesel remains an issue and is driving up the cost of goods and food. How are we addressing it? What are we doing with semi-State bodies to make them more competitive in the delivery of services?

I welcome the Minister of State and he always has our good wishes in the reforms he is trying to implement. In response to the speech of the Minister of State, we have some growth but GNP was down 2.5% in 2011. The domestic economy remains in trouble, as the Minister of State knows. He also referred to tax receipts having increased by 6.3% in the year end to October. It may be higher as the months progress but that is raising extra taxation out of a flat economy. It is a problem I have with the strategy in the April 2011 IMF statement. We are in the process of raising taxation from €34 billion to €44 billion and current expenditure is reducing from €49 billion to €48 billion. Virtually all of the adjustment is being done on the tax side and current expenditure has increased this year. No newspaper believes it and their headlines would be redundant if they actually read the numbers. The so-called cutbacks are counterbalanced in other areas of Government activity by expenditure increases but all of the burden is being borne on the tax side. That has created all sorts of problems in retail and tourism because that is how the economy is adjusting. More should be done on the expenditure side, a point I will address presently.

Reforms are needed in government. The Wright report was critical that only 7% of the staff in the Department of Finance had qualifications in economics. Mr. Wright comes from Canada, where the proportion is 60%. The Government needs a Government economic service, with economists in the spending Departments as well as in the Department of Finance. When spending Ministers speak in the Chamber, it is rather obvious they do not evaluate alternatives. Each Department tries to maximise its budget rather than deliver measures of outputs where we could judge whether programme A is good at poverty alleviation and is achieving its goals. We must tackle that problem and we need proper public expenditure appraisal.

On the capital side, the Minister of State mentioned some projects but the danger with infrastructure is that we end up with empty roads, empty airports, empty hotels and empty houses. There was an edifice complex in capital expenditure in this country in the past. I propose a central office of project evaluation, publishing evaluations in advance and allowing people to evaluate them over the course of a year.

Ireland has a strong culture of political lobbying, which reflects the structure of public expenditure. Lobbyists will be at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform tomorrow and a large number of submissions would spend the imaginary surplus if there was any danger we will ever have a surplus. No one is addressing the problem that the country is living far beyond its means and has developed an entitlement culture that has exhausted not just the taxable capacity of the country but also our borrowing capacity. We have a bureaucracy problem. An bord snip noted that the number of senior civil servants expanded far more rapidly than the number of civil servants as a whole. Bureaucracy maximises its own budget. We also have a lobbyist problem, which we must get a grip on because it will bankrupt the country again.

We also have a moral hazard problem in that most of the people who caused the crisis from 2008-10 are still walking around enlarging their incomes. The Government must face up to that problem. I love moral hazard being described by bankers as people who cannot afford a mortgage. Bankers are the greatest exhibits of moral hazard. They took €64 billion out of the Exchequer, which is not bad work for one evening. We will not take any lectures from bankers, or IBEC more widely, about the dangers of moral hazard. Bankers are the illustration of regulatory capture. We have far too many useless regulators. Senator Healy Eames mentioned energy. All of the regulators are captured by the producers and do not act in the public interest. I will not trod on the patience of the Cathaoirleach anymore. Anything this side of the House can do, we will be delighted to do. The Minister of State has an important national task.

The Minister of State is welcome to the debate on this important subject. Last week was armistice week in Europe and one of the epitaphs on the Menin Gate in Ypres is "For your tomorrow, we gave our today." The epitaph for the latter part of the 20th and the early part of the 21st century could be "For our today, we took your tomorrow". We owe it to the next generation, which has yet to be born, and the children starting school, to fix the economy. We are now in a debt war and it is hanging over every family throughout most of western Europe. Unless we sort out debt, the generation that is yet to be born will look back on us and say that we left it with nothing.

The Government is moving in the right direction and the domestic economy is the secret. We must generate credit in the domestic economy. Today I met Mr. John Trethowan of the Credit Review Office and spoke about the issues and progress he is making. I am confident the work he is doing with his staff in getting small businesses finance, with the assistance of the Government, is a positive development. At the same time, he is under-resourced and could do more with greater resources. With the help of the Minister for Finance, the Minister of State should seek to strengthen the staffing levels of the Credit Review Office so that, working with the county development boards, small businesses can be helped to get off the ground and businesses that are surviving but unsure of the future can be helped to get access to finance. The Credit Review Office also has a function in respect of large employers employing hundreds of people.

The evidence is that the banks, when they can, are still holding back on providing finance. There is a role for us, therefore, in promoting the credit guarantee scheme and the microfinance loan schemes that have been put in place. Many small business are not aware of these schemes. Accountancy firms and bodies must also promote the schemes and engage more with the Credit Review Office. It has said that any case it deals with where there is a satisfactory outcome helps to preserve and create jobs. Therefore, it has an important function.

Senator Feargal Quinn made an important point when he said that pension funds should be released for the purpose of clearing debt. I would hold the opposite view having spoken to people in that field. The pension funds were put aside by people in business to ensure they could live in comfort during retirement. That is an important point.

I fully agree.

There was a recent court case where a financial institution tried to call in the pension fund of an individual and was unsuccessful. If we tamper with pension funds and seek to have them released early or to take partial payments out of them, the courts might say that if they are to be used for purposes other than one's pension, we may end up letting the institutions grab them, as it were.

Cuirim céad fáilte arís roimh an Aire Stáit. Díospóireacht iontach tábhachtach í seo agus is mór agam deis a bheith agam mo chuid tuairimí féin agus tuairimí mo phairtí a roinnt leis. We are approaching two years since Fine Gael and the Labour Party won the election and formed the Government. At that time people undoubtedly voted for change but, I believe, they have been let down and an increasing number of people realise that the Government has no interest in bringing about a change in economic policy. It has not been an easy time in government because the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats economics had brought the country to its knees. Fine Gael and the Labour Party took over a state with 14% unemployment and tens of thousands emigrating each year. It was a State whose sovereignty had been surrendered and which had taken on an unsustainable banking debt.

Unfortunately, all those facts remain true because there has been no real change in policy. To continue with the failed policies of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats and expect a different result is crazy. Still, the banks - our banks - are not lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. The education and health sectors are under constant pressure fearing for the next round of cuts. It is not an easy time to be in government but the Government is fond of saying it is making hard choices. Is it, however? Is it not taking the easy way out by blindly following IMF diktats by doing things the Fianna Fáil way? What would be a brave choice would be to commit the State and its resources to a stimulus plan such as the one Sinn Féin has proposed.

Is that the fantasy one?

I told the Minister of State recently that we had just launched our draft plan.

I got a copy of it.

Good man. I am very grateful. I hope to see the fruits of that on budget day. By using the National Pensions Reserve Fund, the European Investment Bank and private pension funds we would create more than 150,000 jobs. That is not an easy choice but it is the right one.

It is not, despite the Government's claims, the hard thing to do to tax the lower and middle income earners to balance the books or to impose flat taxes, such as property and water taxes, on struggling working families. What would be the harder and right approach would be to introduce a higher third rate of tax on high earners and to introduce a wealth tax where the assets of the very wealthy are taxed.

Last night at a meeting of the community and voluntary sector in Galway, which has arranged a lobby, I was asked to bring a message to the Seanad today because the sector to which I referred is at breaking point owing to the cuts that have been introduced. The representatives showed a graph from the EU-SILC report which indicates that, through the austerity of recent years, those on higher incomes have made more money and are better off than those on lower incomes, whereas more of the burden has been piled on to the lower income families. I suggest that report be taken on board because those groups are finding it very difficult.

By cutting rather than investing and by taxing those who are struggling to pay, the Government is preventing economic growth by killing off domestic demand in the economy. People have less money in their pockets and less confidence to spend it. I note that the United Nations Committee on Trade and Development and the IMF have recently issued reports stating that austerity is not working.

I ask the Minister of State to take on board the suggestions that have been made by ourselves and others in this sphere. The suggestions are made in good faith in order that the community and voluntary sector and all the people in society who cannot afford to take more of the burden will not be lumbered with it. I hope he will take the suggestions on board in the pre-budget deliberations.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte ar ais go dtí an Seanad a chur roimh an Aire Stáit. As the Minister of State said, last year saw an expansion in gross domestic product of some 1.4%. This followed three years of successive decline in GDP and marked a positive first step on the road to recovery. Growth has continued into this year, rising at the modest rate of 0.5% in the first half of the year compared with the same period in 2011. It is a start. The recovery is being led by the external sector, with exports of goods and services well in excess of pre-crisis levels. The strong export performance also means our balance of payments with the rest of the world moved into surplus in 2010 for the first time in more than a decade. This is welcome.

As the Minister of State said, in the second quarter of the year, services exports recorded an 8% annual increase. Our aim is to win more foreign direct investment. I note that IDA Ireland has secured 73 foreign direct investments to date this year. That is no mean achievement. IDA Ireland, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister of State must be complimented on this significant investment in additional jobs in the country. However, unemployment was estimated at 14.8% in September, which is still far too high. The only reliable way to reduce unemployment is to secure economic growth. That is, and no doubt will remain, the main focus of the Government's economic policies.

It is good to note that aggregate tax receipts so far this year to the end of September are 1.5% ahead of target, with three of the four main sources of revenue performing better than expected. I hope this will be borne in mind at the forthcoming December budget. I note the Government successfully negotiated with the troika that some of the receipts from the sale of State assets will be used for job creation. I ask that strategic infrastructure, be it the ESB, gas pipelines or whatever, would not be for sale and would be held as State assets for future generations.

The three-year tax exemption for start-up companies, the value of the relief for employment creation and the jobs initiative are welcome. I read somewhere that the NAMA investment plan proposes to invest €2 billion between 2012 and 2016. Perhaps the Minister of State can provide an update on when it is likely to start.

Tá an tAire Stáit ag déanamh a dhícheall agus tá sé ar an mbóthar ceart.

I raise an issue which has been raised by several colleagues, that is, the banking sector in Ireland. If the Irish banks are reluctant to reverse their current rule of thumb and associated trends of having a loan rejection rate second only to Greece in the eurozone of 24% of all loan applications to the SME sector, I ask the Minister of State to consider setting up a special working group in his Department to explore the possibility and feasibility of establishing a new bank or make efforts to encourage licence applications from banking institutions with similarities to that of the former ICC and ACC banks which targeted the very important sectors of Irish businesses as a way of generating significant economic growth.

We need proper banking competition in this country if we are to make any real achievements in the economy and we need to encourage new institutions to set up here. At present we have the same old banks with the same old legacies. Let us take some inspiration from what the UK has done where the Bank of England has recently granted a licence to a new bank called Metro Bank. This bank targets more than half of its lending to the SME sector and commercial enterprises. This is exactly the kind of statistic of which I would like to see Ireland boast next year.

The crux of the problem is that all the banks currently operating in the market are retail banks. There is no properly focused business bank and it is high time for one to enter the market and the Government needs to make efforts to allow this to happen. We need to ensure banks are financing cash-flow businesses. We also need to ensure that officials get the proper training vis-à-vis consideration of business plans so that viable business plans are approved for finance and not let slip through the net. We are missing the opportunity to finance Irish businesses and entrepreneurs. If we do not correct this trend and take remedial action, we will face paralysis. We owe it to the country to avoid this.

Without a proper functioning banking system we will not be able to rebuild Ireland. We must recognise how critical SMEs are for economic development and we must do everything to address the conditions which have been inflicted upon them in recent times. Therefore I urge the Minister of State to earnestly consider the proposals my colleagues and I have made with regard to the banking sector.

I thank my colleagues for their very informed and constructive contributions to this very important debate. Senator Harte summed it up very well when he spoke about the economic war through which we are living. This is an economic war and is about the survival of the country. When I studied economics the people who taught me made it clear that when an economy has a debt to GDP ratio of more than 90% it is in major trouble and a country with a current budget deficit of more than 10% is also in major trouble. On the latter issue we are making steady progress, but it is still an enormous deficit that needs to be rectified over a period of years. The key task the Government faces, as Senator Harte and others mentioned, is the need to bring that deficit down to a manageable 3% by 2015. Of course that is made easier if we see economic growth re-emerge. We are seeing some tentative signs of that at the moment. Last year was positive whereas in the previous three years effectively 14% of GDP was knocked out. That was an extraordinary cliff over which the entire economy fell.

While we must do that, we must also make the correction through tax increases and reductions in expenditure. We need to get that balance right. Based on all the international evidence, if we are to correct a deficit while trying to resuscitate an economy, we need to do more on the public expenditure side than the tax side. We will not encourage entrepreneurship and investment, and get people back to work by taxing the hell out of people either on the corporate side or on the individual side. We need to get that balance right.

Of course much of the heavy lifting will need to be done by way of GDP growth. For every 1% of GDP growth, we get €1.6 billion into the economy through new jobs, more investment and revenue coming in. While we must continue on the taxes consolidation side and reduce expenditure in circumstances when more children are coming into our schools, there is more pressure on our hospitals and there are so many people out of work who need to be paid, that is not easy but we need to get that balance right. We need to do that in a way that is fair for everyone. I echo what the Minister for Finance said to our party and externally, that we need to do this in a fair way. Those with the broadest shoulders will need to bear the brunt of this.

We should not forget from where we have come. Since 2008 some €24 billion has been taken out of the Irish economy and we were told that if we did that, we would never see growth again.

The Minister of State and his colleagues told us that.

We have shown that by taking money out of the economy in a fair way and getting the balance right between tax and expenditure, we can still resuscitate the economy. The good news - if there is any good news - is that there is only €8.5 billion to go, but arguably it is the most difficult €8.5 billion because so much of the low-hanging fruit has been taken out already.

What does the Minister of State consider as low-hanging fruit - pay cuts and welfare cuts?

The Minister of State to continue, without interruption.

I did not interrupt the Senator.

There is all this nonsense that it was only low-hanging fruit that we cut in the €24 billion, every penny of which the Minister of State's party opposed.

Can we hear the Minister of State without interruption, please?

This is old rubbish.

I thought the Senator realised his party lost the election, but it has still taken him nearly two years to realise it.

We thought the Government would introduce different policies after the public rejected our policies, but it has brought in the same policies.

I want to make something clear to the Senator because he is a very slow learner in this regard. We will ensure that the economy comes out of the negative territory in which his party left it. We will ensure the economy grows in so far as we can. As I have repeatedly said, the economy is a bit like a cork bobbing up and down on a huge ocean. More than any economy in western Europe we are very exposed to the international markets. We have a thriving economy and a well trading economy. We have an economy that is highly deleveraged and highly privatised. It is not like the Mediterranean example. We actually have a smallish public sector vis-à-vis many other economies in Europe. As the world comes out of this difficulty and as we get some stability back into the eurozone, the economy will come back quicker than most. That is the view of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

Let us consider the issue of VAT. When we increased VAT last year from 21% to 23%, the Opposition advised that the total take in that area would reduce. However, since then there has been an increase in the amounts of money coming into the economy from VAT. We have made it absolutely clear that there is nothing more to give in this regard, particularly in the area of indirect taxation. We did it deliberately to ensure that last year we did not increase income taxation.

I do not agree with Senator Michael D'Arcy on corporation tax. When there is such uncertainty the last thing to do is to have further doubt. One of the great advantages of the 12.5% corporate tax rate is that it creates absolute certainty on which there is political consensus. It sends a clear signal to international investors that Ireland will not change its 12.5% rate and that is the right message to send in circumstances where up to 250,000 direct and indirect jobs are related to foreign direct investment - the kinds of jobs that can move very quickly overnight. Of course they are not only coming here for the 12.5% corporate tax rate, as the Senator and others know. They are coming here because we have a well-educated workforce, we speak English, our currency is the euro, the demographics are good, and our workers are excellent in their flexibility and productivity. One of the great stories from this recovery is the way in which we have still managed to obtain very significant investments from US and other companies coming to Ireland and I believe we should not change the corporate tax rate.

I understand that five years ago the amount we were taking in in corporate tax was just over €7 billion. The amount this year will be €3.6 billion. I do not believe it makes sense to increase the corporate tax rate when the yield has reduced by almost half. At the height of the boom we were taking in €59 billion in taxes - corporate taxes, personal taxes, VAT etc. That reduced in 2008 to €31 billion. During that period of time, as Senator Barrett rightly pointed out, we have not seen a significant reduction in expenditure. We have seen a slight reduction, but the amounts have not radically reduced. We face an enormous challenge where the entire economy fell off a cliff and tax receipts, one third of which were predicated on a hyped up property boom, collapsed. We have to repair that tax system by broadening the tax base, which is the Government's policy.

Senator Quinn spoke about reducing the cost to employers and I very much agree with him. It makes no sense to increase taxes on employers in circumstances where we are trying to ensure they create the jobs of tomorrow. I also agree we need to do much more on reducing red tape and bureaucracy and make it easier for people to employ within our economy. We have done some very positive things in this regard. In the jobs budget we reduced PRSI where employers hire new employees. This made a difference and I very much reject what Senator Byrne stated. The advantage of the jobs strategy pursued by the pension levy was that we saw substantial growth in the numbers employed in the hospitality and tourism sectors. This happened as a result of the measures we introduced, particularly reducing VAT from 13.5% to 9%.

We are examining how to utilise the pension savings in the economy. The Minister for Finance made very clear in his Budget Statement last year that this year he would engage in consultations with the Irish pensions industry to examine ways in which the upcoming budget could get the pensions industry to invest in Ireland were traditionally it has not. This is under active consideration by the Minister. Consultation has been concluded and I expect that in the upcoming budget, or through other measures, the Minister will reflect these discussions.

I thank Senator Gilroy for his remarks, particularly with regard to the fiscal deficit. I agree with him that the issue of 120% of GDP is a very difficult challenge facing the country and our task is to make this more sustainable. The way this can be obtained is through a much better deal on our national debt through the promissory notes and opportunities provided by the ESM and recapitalisation. Senator Gilroy asked whether we need to be more publicly engaged in explaining our strategy. This is a challenge and a dilemma. People need to understand the Government is working on this, which we are, but many of these discussions take place behind closed doors because once a position on the objective of talks is made public and known, it becomes the only position and one cannot row back from it. We must get the balance right between continually explaining to the public our objectives while also doing much of the work behind the scenes and winning friends internationally, as the Taoiseach and Tánaiste have done in such an exemplary way through their work in trying to rebuild the country after the collapse.

It is worth stating that in 2012 one fifth, or 20%, of all taxes we take in will pay interest on our national debt, whereas four years ago the figure was 3.5%. This is a very difficult position. As Senator Barrett knows, in the 1980s one third of all taxes taken in paid interest on the national debt. If we can achieve sustained and substantial economic growth there is no reason this figure cannot decrease. I am confident this will happen over a period of years.

The role played by the president of the ECB, Mr. Draghi, in giving three year money to the banks at 1% and introducing bond buying on the sovereign markets has been hugely significant in creating incremental progress. The Senator also asked about the inflows and outflows of money to Irish banks and I will get the exact figures later. From my knowledge I understand the flow out of the Irish banking sector has stopped and it is now going in the right direction. As we get more confident and progress is made we will see more deposits. The news today that Bank of Ireland has returned to the capital markets is very encouraging because no interbank lending has taken place for at least two and a half or three years since the crisis began. The only source from which the banks could obtain funding was through the emergency liquidity fund. We are watching the news from Bank of Ireland today very closely.

When we came into government, the cost of buying nine year or ten year Irish debt was 15.5%. Last night it was 4.6%, which is lower than Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy. We are moving in the right direction. We will soon be in a position where the cost of buying nine year or ten year money on the international markets will be close to the blended rate we are charged from the EU-IMF programme, which is approximately 2.5% or 3%. I put it to colleagues in a fair and objective way this is a measure of progress with regard to re-entering the market. Already this year €5.5 billion has been raised by the NTMA - in short-term money admittedly - and I know more will happen in this regard. This is the type of incremental progress we need to see happen in a considered way.

I thank Senator Mooney for his very constructive remarks. He asked why the 12.5% rate decreased to 6%. This is largely due to companies investing in research and development who can write off a proportion of their expenditure for this purpose. This is very important. If Irish multinational businesses invest in research and development, not only does it reduce their tax bill but it also provides another opportunity for Irish people to grow their ideas and export potential. I agree with the Senator's assessment that in times of crisis one does not change this but rather one sends out a positive signal. It is important to state also the tax credit on the research and development side is one reason people can reduce their 12.5% liability to 5%, 6% or 7%.

Senator Healy Eames spoke about mortgage debt. I do not disagree with her, but I must state that at the highest levels of Government the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform deal with this on a weekly and monthly basis. We need to see the banks get on with the job they have been asked to do. They have been given the funds to write down this debt where appropriate on a case-by-case basis. I know the engagement they have with the Central Bank and there is some frustration in this regard. We have all seen comments on this. The banks need to get on this task and the sooner they can do so the better.

They are not doing so.

I have referred to some of the remarks made by Senator Barrett. I do not disagree with him. My personal view is that more needs to be done on expenditure than tax but we must get the balance right. With regard to capital expenditure we had many vanity projects in the past 15 years. At one point we spent €9 billion a year on capital projects. What value did we obtain from these? The great majority of capital expenditure this year and next year will be on schools and primary health care centres, ensuring the Government's plans for health are fulfilled and that the huge bulge in population coming into our primary and post primary schools is adequately dealt with. I do not regard these as vanity projects. They make good sense and will give good value.

I want to nail the issue that no savings have been made. Let us be clear, three years ago the totality of the public sector pay and pension bill was €20 billion and now it is €17.5 billion. The previous Government and this-----

No, we saved it.

The previous Government and this one-----

Fine Gael voted against it.

The previous Government and this one over a period of three years have reduced by €2.5 billion the amount we spend when public salaries and pensions are summed up. We do not sing about this and we need to. We need to explain to the public the enormous reductions in public sector pay and pensions of €2.5 billion made over a three-year period. It is enormous. When we speak internationally about this people ask us how we managed to do so. It is to the credit of the public sector that this level of adjustment has occurred.

Fine Gael did not assist in any way in opposition.

It has been done with the support of Fianna Fáil.

On the question Senator Harte asked about the Credit Review Office, I agree we need to do more but some very important things are happening in the micro-finance area. I have seen cases in my constituency of people who could not get money from the banks obtaining micro-funding for very small businesses. The temporary loan guarantees are being rolled out and the big idea is that the State would act as guarantor to help businesses get funds in place. The pillar banks have been told by the Government that over a three-year period they must invest €21 billion in Irish businesses, big and small.

People say to me - I know that Senator Higgins made the point and I shall return to her - that a lot of that money is not going to SMEs but to restructure existing businesses. Without restructuring, those businesses would be dead and gone. I have continually made the point that this is not just about creating jobs but protecting the 1.8 million people who are in work. We want to make sure they are protected too. A lot of the funding provided by the pillar banks relates to the restructuring of existing loans from existing viable businesses but that fact is frequently ignored.

I note the comment made by my colleague from Galway, Senator Ó Clochartaigh. He mentioned the industrial policy proposed by our colleagues in Sinn Féin and that he had not seen our pre-budget submission. We have not seen his party's pre-budget submission but we shall be all ears when it comes out. As last year Sinn Féin produced it 12 hours before the budget, I ask his party to give it to us a few days earlier. We are prepared to examine any positive and realistic proposals made by Opposition parties.

Senator Brennan referred to NAMA and he made an important point. NAMA has said that it is prepared to invest over €2 billion in investment projects through viable businesses that it is working its way through. That could be a source of additional employment across the country, particularly outside Dublin, and the Government would welcome the measure. I can assure the Senator that the only assets that will be sold are non-strategic State assets. We have no intention of selling strategic State assets.

I agree with Senator Higgins that we need a new SME lending culture, not just by the pillar banks but niche banks. The Minister for Finance holds the view that the more banks the merrier but it is difficult to get them. There is an opportunity to start Islamic banking which has been successful in the UK. I understand that 40,000 people who have come to this country in the past decade bank with the Islamic bank in the UK and they are all involved in small business. They can see that there is a future for a niche banking market and we need to get into that space. The Government will closely examine any proposals that it receives. There is nothing to prevent such banks being established in Ireland. Our difficulty is the sovereign risk and threat which makes it more difficult to get the funds in to match it.

I hope that I have replied to everyone and I thank Senators for their suggestions. We have made it clear that the forthcoming budget will be difficult. If we can get through it and there is a sustained path towards economic growth then that will help the economy to recover and get people back to work. There is always a lag between a turn in the economy and improved employment opportunities. Traditionally, that has been the case. Our primary objective is to get as many people back to work and to create the right conditions so that investment can come in. I shall outline one case. Recently, I met a man from my constituency and I asked him how he was doing. He said that his business was gone and that he had employed 45 people at one point. He said that he is back on his feet again because he is selling carpets in London. He employs three people there but he hopes to return to selling carpets here by the middle of next year. He said that the one big difference between the 1980s and now is that there are a lot of people like him who know how to make money. When we get back on our feet again we will make money again. An entrepreneurial spirit did not exist in the 1980s but it does now. I have every confidence that if we get the banking sector right, get the general position of the economy right in terms of the deficit and get our competitiveness and pricing right then those people who have made money - the people who created employment opportunities for so many people in the past decade and a half - will be back on their feet and will ensure that the economy is a success.

I thank the Minister of State. When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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