Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2012

Vol. 219 No. 9

Adjournment Matters

State Properties

Senator David Cullinane

I welcome the Minister to the House. I have tabled this Adjournment matter to try to discover what plans the Office of Public Works has for the Mount Congreve Estate in Waterford.

The Minister may be aware that in 1979, an agreement was reached between the State and Mr. Ambrose Congreve, who was the owner of the house and gardens that comprise the Mount Congreve Estate. The arrangement was that on the death of Mr. Congreve, which occurred a number of years ago, the estate would be managed by a trust involving three trustees, one of which would be the Commissioners of Public Works. After a transitional period of 21 years, the freehold and ownership would then transfer to the Minister for Finance, after which the State, through the Minister for Finance, would own the house and gardens. Enormous tourism potential exists because this is a highly attractive and world-renowned garden and a plan certainly should be developed for it. Approximately 15 horticultural staff are employed there full-time, to keep the gardens to a very high standard and they are concerned, as am I, about the long-term future of the house and its gardens. It is necessary to ensure that a plan is put in place and in so doing, all the stakeholders must be brought together. I consider the stakeholders to include the Mount Congreve Estate Trust, which comprises the three trustees, including the Commissioners of Public Works. It must also involve the Congreve Foundation, which essentially derives from the proceeds of Mr. Ambrose Congreve's estate and is funding the continuation of the payment of the staff wages at present, as well as the Office of Public Works itself and Waterford County Council.

I seek to explore what plans the Office of Public Works has and what actions will be taken to bring together all these groups to draw up long-term and short-term plans for the house and the gardens to exploit the existing tourism potential and to ensure the jobs in the house and gardens are safeguarded. I will listen to what the Minister has to say because the essential purpose of raising this matter on the Adjournment was not to give the Minister a history lesson - I am sure she is aware of the garden's history - but to explore what precisely the Office of Public Works is considering and what will be the plans. As I mentioned, there is huge tourism potential and as it is a facility that will be in public ownership, there is a responsibility on the State to ensure that what is a world-renowned garden is kept up to the highest standard and that the potential offered by this splendid house and garden is maximised for the people of Waterford and the State.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

In 1979 an agreement was reached between the State and Mr. Ambrose Congreve whereby, in exchange for tax concessions, Mr. Congreve placed his house and world-renowned gardens into a trust with ownership of both reverting to the Minister for Finance on the expiration of the trust periods. The trust is irrevocable and the trust properties are divided into two, the gardens and the mansion house and its demesne, with both having different trust periods. The trust periods commenced following the death of Mr. Congreve last year. The gardens, which are approximately 66 acres, will remain in the trust for a period of 21 years after the death of Mr. Congreve. The mansion house and its demesne, which is approximately 5 acres, will remain in the trust for a longer period and will, in all likelihood, not revert to the Minister for Finance until 2059.

The trust, which is known as the Mount Congreve Garden Trust, currently has three trustees. The Commissioners of Public Works are a minority trustee and the other two trustees were appointed by Mr. Congreve. These trustees are also representatives of Mr. Congreve's estate, which is known as the Congreve Foundation. The Commissioners of Public Works are in detailed discussions with the Congreve Foundation on a number of issues, which include the membership of the trust, the future management and staffing of the trust properties, and the purchase of additional lands for the benefit of the trust. The Commissioners have indicated they would like to become majority trustees of the Mount Congreve Garden Trust for the State to be allowed greater control over the management of the trust properties. The other trustees have signalled that they would, in principle, be willing to retire from the trust as part of an overall agreement.

The Senator raised issues regarding the staff. At present, the staff employed in the gardens are employed by the Congreve Foundation. Once an agreement is in place, employment of the staff will transfer from the foundation to the trust. I assure Members that the future welfare of the staff is of paramount concern to the stakeholders. However, it is important to note that until the trust period expires, it will be the trust and not the State which employs the staff. Likewise, it is important to note that, at present, it is the trust and not the State which will manage the trust properties. Their future management is being discussed by the trustees and these talks should be concluded in the near future. I should also highlight that a third party recently approached the trustees with an offer of a commercial arrangement which may be of immediate benefit to the trust properties and would focus on their tourism potential. These talks are at an early stage and will be progressed. It is envisaged that once the trust period for the gardens expires and they revert to the full ownership of the State, they will be managed as part of the National Botanic Gardens.

The lands that were included within the trust deed are integral to the setting of the house and gardens. However, additional lands are needed for the provision of modern visitor facilities and to ensure adequate car and bus parking. Likewise, while the trust deed granted various rights of way to the trustees over lands owned by the Congreve Foundation to ensure access and the provision of supplies of water and utilities to the trust properties, it would be preferable for the trust to have direct control over them. For these reasons, the Commissioners of Public Works have been in negotiations with the Congreve Foundation with a view to purchasing additional lands to be able to control fully access and to future-proof the trust properties in respect of car parking, visitor services and future expansion. These lands adjoin the trust properties and front onto the current public road system. They would allow for unfettered control of access and egress by the public to the trust properties and would ensure that in the future, the trust properties would be able to link into the public water supply and utilities without having to revert to rights of way. Negotiations between the parties have been ongoing for a number of months and a third-party valuer was jointly instructed to issue a non-binding valuation. While an agreement has yet to be reached, it is hoped that a solution will be forthcoming. I hope this information has been helpful to the Senator.

Senator David Cullinane

I thank the Minister and note her response has been very positive. I welcome the discussions under way to enable the Commissioners of Public Works to take a majority stake in the overall trust, as well as their acceptance that they then will manage the estate until it goes into public ownership. They also agree the third-party option of a commercial enterprise that would develop the tourism potential should be explored fully and hopefully this also will materialise. I commend the Minister on a very good response. It appears as though progress is being made on this issue and that the full tourism potential of these splendid gardens will materialise for the people of Waterford and beyond.

Treatment Abroad Scheme

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, to the House.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

The Minister, Deputy Hogan, is very welcome. My request to him is to ask the Minister for Health to outline the criteria used to determine the eligibility of children with rare life-threatening cancers and other illnesses for financial support from the Health Service Executive in order that they may be included in clinical trials in foreign jurisdictions. Moreover, if this is not possible, the Minister for Health should outline the reason. It is with some regret that I note the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, has left the Chamber given this issue also would fall within her remit.

Considering the recent passing of the children's referendum and its purpose to put children first, it is important to explore every opportunity for life, for saving lives and for the health care of our children in foreign jurisdictions, particularly children with neuroblastoma. The Minister may have heard of a little girl called Lily Mae Morrison, who is four years of age, is from Claregalway, County Galway, and who suffers from stage 4 neuroblastoma. Her parents are Judith Sibley and Leighton Morrison, both of whom are self-employed professional ballet dancers. Neuroblastoma is a rare childhood cancer of the nervous system affecting one in 100,000 children, primarily under the age of five. Between six and eight cases per year are reported in Ireland and while the prognosis for survival at stage 4 is poor, a number of treatments are available in Ireland through the HSE that improve the survival rates of sufferers. The treatment takes two years and involves chemotherapy, radiotherapy, surgery, stem cell harvesting and rebuild and it involves many inpatient and outpatient visits. At the end of the treatment, there still is a 70% chance of relapse and the treatment options in Ireland after relapse are limited, the most common option being palliative chemotherapy. A number of clinical trials for treatments for relapsed neuroblastoma are under way, one in the United States and another in Germany. These trials indicate an improved survival rate of more than 50% for those children availing of the trials.

The cost of the trials are between €500,000 and €750,000. There are anecdotal accounts of adult cancer sufferers, in particular those suffering from brain tumours, being facilitated by the HSE with financial assistance to go on clinical trials in foreign jurisdictions for cancer treatment. Could the Minister confirm if that is the case and if so, why they would be extended to adults and not children? Is it not the case that all cancer treatments are trials by their very nature, whether or not approved by the HSE for treatment. What trials are going on in this country that could help and what partnerships exist, if any, between Irish hospitals and other EU jurisdictions that could assist children with neuroblastoma?

In the United States in 2009, a total of $5.6 billion in funding was spent on cancer research. The sum of $3 million went towards research on neuroblastoma. The average life person years lost due to neuroblastoma is 67 years. The average loss for breast cancer is 16 years, which illustrates that neuroblastoma is a particularly aggressive form of cancer.

Lily Mae has become a national treasure. The Minister may know of her. She has been on every media outlet and her story has been covered extensively by the Irish media on television, radio and in print, including “Nationwide”, “The Late Late Show”, the “Craig Doyle Show”, “Ireland AM”, "Midday", “The Afternoon Show”, and by the Irish Independent and the tabloid press. The campaign behind her has recorded the song "Tiny Dancer" – she is a tiny little girl – the song by Elton John and Bernie Taupin, who both endorsed her campaign. That is an indication of the extent of people she has reached. She has a weekly following of more than 450,000 people. On average, more than 45,000 people engage with her story on a daily basis either liking, sharing or commenting on a story on her page. It has been shown that 52% of fans are aged between 24 and 44 and two thirds of them are female. She is building up a considerable following. This is now a national story.

To date, the campaign supporting her treatment is somewhere in the region of €50,000 but it is not just about the amount of money raised, which is significant; it is about the value of the media coverage the charity single has garnered for neuroblastoma and the increased awareness of the disease it has created in this country and internationally. The beneficiaries of the project are the Sunni Mae Trust, established to help with the care and future medical needs of Lily Mae and the Neuroblastoma Society, a United Kingdom-based charity established by the parents of children with this disease or those whose children have died of the disease that endows neuroblastoma research with financial support in order to promote the discovery of new treatments and potentially a cure for the disease. I have deliberately put all of that on the record. This is a serious case that touches the lives of many people in Galway and across the country, in particular the four-year old girl. It affects six to eight little children every year in this country. I await the Minister’s response.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank Senator Healy Eames for raising this matter. The notice of the matter received did not refer to a specific individual case. If that had happened I would have expected to have been briefed on the individual case. She asked about the criteria which the Department of Health and the HSE use to determine the eligibility of such children as Lily Mae who have rare life-threatening cancers. The Health Service Executive operates a treatment abroad scheme, TAS, for persons entitled to treatment in another EU or EEA member state or Switzerland under EU Regulation 1408/71, as per the procedures set out in EU Regulation 574/72, and in accordance with Department of Health guidelines.

Within these governing EU regulations and the Department of Health's guidelines, the TAS provides for the cost of approved treatments in another EU or EEA member state or Switzerland through the issue of form El12 (IE). A decision is made on each application in accordance with this legislation and guidelines and on the basis of a review by clinical experts. The cost of the treatment is not a deciding factor when approving an application. The treatment must not be available within the State or not available within a time normally necessary for obtaining it.

The TAS allows for an Irish-based consultant to refer a patient that is normally resident in Ireland for treatment in another EU member state or Switzerland, where the treatment in question meets the following criteria. First, the application to refer a patient abroad has been assessed and a determination given before that patient goes abroad. Second, following clinical assessment, the referring consultant certifies a recommendation that the patient be treated in another EU-EEA country or Switzerland; the treatment is medically necessary and will meet the patient's needs; the treatment is a proven form of medical treatment and is not experimental or test treatment; the treatment is in a recognised hospital or other institution and is under the control of a registered medical practitioner; and the hospital outside the State will accept EU-EEA form El12 (IE).

The application to refer a patient abroad must be assessed and a determination given prior to the patient availing of the treatment abroad. Valid applications will be processed within 15 to 20 working days and a decision will be issued via letter. Appointments should not be scheduled prior to a decision being reached on an application. Appointments that are made prior to a decision will have no bearing on the review process or its expedition.

The response sets out the criteria in terms of who is eligible under such a scheme. Perhaps the person the Senator has brought to the attention of the House is eligible under the scheme outlined, but I am not in a position to determine that as I have not been given the necessary briefing. The Senator might wish to bring the details to the attention of the family involved and explain to them the precise procedure to be followed. No applications to the scheme have been accepted for referral for inclusion in clinical trial and current practice is that costs associated in participation in a clinical trial are borne by the providers of the trial. Applications to the scheme are only accepted where the patient, adult or child, is being referred outside the State for proven treatment that cannot be obtained within the State.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I appreciate the information the Minister has provided. We are aware of the scheme. It is not about treatment, it is about a trial. That is the difference. Germany is within the area and there appears to be a trial there that is producing improved results that would not be available to the child in this jurisdiction. The question is whether the trial could be considered a treatment because it would give the child improved results.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I ask Senator Healy Eames to give me the information she has at her disposal and I will talk to the Minister for Health about the matter tomorrow and get an assessment of the individual case carried out. I was not aware the Senator was inquiring about an individual case as she did not indicate that in her question. Therefore, I could not be expected to have a reply on the matter this evening. I will undertake to speak to the Minister for Health tomorrow and get an answer on the individual case concerned.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am grateful for that.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not on Committee Stage.

Water and Sewerage Schemes Provision

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I thank the Minister for coming to the House to deal with this issue which has occurred in Craughwell, County Galway. I raise the matter of the private wastewater treatment plant on behalf of the residents of the Dún Ard housing estate. The plant services up to 59 houses. Water is seeping out of the plant and into the nearby Dunkellin River which is presenting a significant environmental and health and safety issue. The threat posed by the plant is further corroborated by the fact that information has become available to the residents under an FOI request which indicates that the plant failed all monitoring tests carried out between 2007 and 2012 yet nothing was done by the relevant authorities to rectify the matter. To exacerbate the situation, the ESB switched off the electricity supply to the wastewater treatment plant last week due to an unpaid bill, which will undoubtedly cause further significant problems. It is clear from the information I have received that there is a threat of water pollution and environmental damage as a result of the foregoing. Health and safety consequences will inevitably follow as long as the power to the treatment plant remains off. On that basis I ask the Minister to take all necessary remedial steps to ensure that appropriate enforcement action is taken to address the issue. It is imperative that residents receive confirmation that the wastewater treatment system serving the Dun Ard estate is operated and maintained in accordance with the licence requirements, that it does not cause environmental pollution and that all relevant environmental legislation is being complied with.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I thank Senator Higgins for the opportunity to clarify the position at the wastewater treatment plant at Dún Ard, Craughwell, County Galway. As she is aware, the provision of water and sewerage services is the responsibility of the 34 city and county councils which are designated as water services authorities under the Water Services Act 2007.

The Department's Water Services Investment Programme 2010-13 provides for the development of a comprehensive range of new water services infrastructure in County Galway. The programme includes contracts under construction and to commence to the value of some €130 million in the county during the period of the programme.

A key input to the development of the programme was the assessment of needs prepared by local authorities, including Galway County Council, in response to the Department's request to the authorities in 2009 to review and prioritise their proposals for new capital works in their areas. These were subsequently appraised in the Department in the context of the funds available and key criteria that complemented those used by the authorities. However, the Craughwell sewerage scheme was not among the priority contracts and schemes selected for inclusion in the current programme.

Progress under the Water Services Investment Programme 2010-13 was reviewed in mid 2011 and through this process consideration was given to any newly-emerging priority contracts and schemes submitted by local authorities for addition to the programme. No proposal for a sewerage scheme at Craughwell was received from Galway County Council in response to the review.

In accordance with the 2007 Act, my role as Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government for water services is to facilitate the provision by water services authorities of safe and efficient water services and associated water services infrastructure. The Department's role is in developing and implementing Government policy in this area, making sure that the necessary funding is made available to finance the water services investment and the rural water programmes and monitoring physical and financial progress on schemes. In the period 2000-11, over €5.5 billion has been invested in the water services sector under these programmes.

The wastewater treatment plant referred to at Craughwell, County Galway, is a privately-owned and managed wastewater treatment plant. The Department has no responsibility for, or role to play in, the management, maintenance or operation of such plants. Galway County Council has advised the Department that this is a development which remains the responsibility of the developer and has been the subject of enforcement proceedings by the county council. Galway County Council is in ongoing discussion with the developer and is making every effort to ensure that the development, including its wastewater treatment plant, is brought up to the required standard, with a view to management of the development being taken over by the management company formed for this purpose.

I suggest to the Senator that this is likely to be an issue for the planning authorities for enforcement purposes in respect of this developer and to ensure there is a proper standard of wastewater treatment facilities for the people who live in Dún Ard in Craughwell. That is the appropriate way to bring the matter to a successful conclusion.

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I thank the Minister for his response. I referred to the monitoring tests carried out in 2007 and 2012 for the wastewater treatment plant. Nothing has been done by the relevant authorities to rectify the matter. Is that not a matter of concern for the Minister and the Department? I also ask the Minister to discuss the matter further with Galway County Council and consider calling in the bond. The issue has been ongoing for seven years so a great deal of suffering is taking place as a consequence of the inactivity of the sewage treatment plant.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I will contact Galway County Council on any action on enforcement proceedings in the event it is not able to reach agreement with the developer but must take in charge this development, and to see if the bond is sufficient, in conjunction with the resources of the local authority, to deal with this problem. If any environmental problems with respect to water quality or public health issues have arisen in respect of the development, the Senator should bring them to the attention of the Department or the EPA. That would be important to bring the issue forward and resolve the problem.

Social Welfare Benefits Data

Senator Marc MacSharry

This is more of a parliamentary question than an Adjournment matter so I will not add to the basic question, which is to get an indication from the Minister for the figures for public sector sick pay and private sector sick pay for 2010, 2011 and, if available, for 2012. There has been media coverage of this and some of the Minister's colleagues have mentioned the costs this will have for the State.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I thank the Senator for raising this question and apologise on behalf of the Minister for Social Protection, who is dealing with the Social Welfare Bill in the other House.

Illness benefit is a social insurance payment payable to insured persons who are unable to work due to illness, satisfy certain contribution conditions, are certified as unfit for work by a medical practitioner and are aged under 66. Expenditure on illness benefit was €943 million in 2010, €876 million in 2011 and in 2012 is expenditure is expected to be just under €800 million.

In terms of a customer breakdown between the public and private sector, one third of illness benefit claims received are from public sector employees and two thirds are from the private sector.

A study undertaken for the European Foundation for Living and Working Conditions in 2010 suggests an overall national absenteeism level of around 3.5%. The estimate draws upon a number of sources, including small-scale surveys undertaken by IBEC and SFA. The two surveys by ISME in 2007 and SFA in 2008 cover levels of absence in SMEs. The number of claimants on the Department's illness benefit schemes suggests an overall absence rate of around 4%, whereas a recent IBEC report suggested an overall rate of around 2.6%.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, in a special report on sickness absence in the Civil Service, published in 2009, estimated that some 5% of available working time was lost to sickness absence in 2007, with wide variations between Departments, grades, ages and genders.

The Department of Social Protection itself lost some 40,000 days to illness in 2011. These absences ranged from 20 plus working days to 200 plus working days in a small number of cases. To address this particular challenge, the Department's HR division is actively managing the minority of its staff who have the longest absences in order to facilitate a return to work, where feasible, at the earliest possible stage. The House will also be aware that proposals have been brought forward by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform which seek to address some of the factors behind the rates of absenteeism in the public sector. I assure the Senator that active management of absenteeism is an intricate part of the day-to-day management within the Civil Service and public service overall.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 December 2012.